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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 12 Dec 1934

Vol. 54 No. 6

In Committee on Finance. - Financial Resolution No. 2—Excise.

I move:—

1. That an Excise duty of five shillings shall be charged, levied, and paid for and upon every licence issued under the Tobacco Act, 1934 (No. 37 of 1934), and in that Act referred to as a grower's licence, that is to say, a licence to grow tobacco in a specified year on specified lands and to cure such tobacco.

2. That an Excise duty of ten shillings shall be charged, levied, and paid for and upon every licence issued under the Tobacco Act, 1934 (No. 37 of 1934), and in that Act referred to as a curer's licence, that is to say, a licence to cure, in the premises to which such licence relates, tobacco grown in a specified year.

3. That an Excise duty of one pound shall be charged, levied, and paid for and upon every licence issued under the Tobacco Act, 1934 (No. 37 of 1934), and in that Act referred to as a rehandler's licence, that is to say, a licence to rehandle, in the premises to which such licence relates, tobacco grown in a specified year.

4. That an Excise duty of five shillings shall be charged, levied, and paid for and upon every licence issued under Part IV of the Tobacco Act, 1934 (No. 37 of 1934), and in that Act referred to as an experimental manufacturer's licence, that is to say, a licence to grow tobacco in a specified year on specified land and to cure and rehandle such tobacco.

5. That sub-section (1) of Section 3 of the Finance Act, 1908, shall be repealed.

6. It is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect by virtue of the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1927 (No. 7 of 1927).

This Resolution deals with the Excise duty on licences to grow and rehandle tobacco. The Tobacco Act of this year makes provision for the issuing of licences (1) to grow tobacco and to cure tobacco so grown, (2) to cure home grown tobacco and (3) to rehandle home grown tobacco. The legislation before the House provides for the payment respectively of Excise duty of 5/-, 10/- and £1 licences. There is also provision in the Tobacco Act for the issuing to a very limited number of persons called experimental manufacturers of licences to grow and rehandle such tobacco. The Resolution provides for an Excise licence duty of 5/- for such experimental manufacturer's licence.

I am informed by those who are engaged in the manufacture of tobacco and its cultivation in Ireland that the new proposals of the Minister for Finance have virtually under the Finance Act put an end to any prospect of developing the tobacco growing business in this country. I think it is advisable on this occasion when the funeral charges of the tobacco industry are being fixed to refer to the interview given by Deputy de Valera, as he then was, to the Evening Herald on the 19th June, 1929. In that interview he said that he and his colleague, Deputy MacEntee, as he then was, had come to the conclusion that there should be no interference of any kind with the growers of tobacco and that in connection with the growth of tobacco there should be no revenue regulations——

Is this in order? The House has already adopted the Tobacco Act of 1934?

—and that there should be no fees or any interference with the tobacco growing industry——

Is this in order?

The Deputy may not criticise any Act of this Oireachtas except when considering amending legislation, but the Deputy is in order in his speech on this Financial Resolution.

This is a proposal to issue licences in the business of rehandling, curing and growing tobacco. This Resolution provides for the payment of a licence duty of 5/- to grow tobacco. I want to remind the House that in their salad days Deputy de Valera, as he then was, and Deputy MacEntee, as he then was, took the view that there should be no licence needed for growing tobacco and that a citizen should be as free to grow tobacco as to grow turnips—

That is quite incorrect.

I give the date and the reference. It is an interview in the Evening Herald of the 19th June, 1929. In that interview the President goes on record in a very carefully considered interview in that respect, and says the reason why the futile and effete Cumann na nGaedheal Government had destroyed the tobacco industry in this country was because they had allowed the Revenue Commissioners to poke their noses into it and that he looked forward to the day when he would be given an opportunity of putting the Revenue Commissioners in their place——

Will the Deputy quote that?

Will the Minister please wait till I have finished. This is very good. In that interview the President said that he looked forward to the day when he and his colleague, Mr. MacEntee, would have an opportunity of delivering the tobacco growers of this country from the thraldom in which they were held by the Cumann na nGaedheal Government——

Dr. Ryan:

That is untrue.

The Minister does not know that it is untrue. He states in ignorance that it is untrue but does not know where it is from. Would he not wait for the quotation?

Dr. Ryan:

I know the President would not make a foolish statement like that. I know the foolishness of the statement.

The statement was made and there is a reference for it. If folly is the test the Minister is convicted.

The statement was foolish, I agree, but the Minister must remember that Deputy de Valera was then stumping the country with his colleagues, making what his colleague, Deputy Dowdall, afterwards described as statements. He made these foolish statements. But they were made to deceive the electors into voting for Fianna Fáil. It was for that purpose they were made.

Dr. Ryan:

What I object to is Deputy Dillon making false statements here which he will not substantiate.

If the Minister were an orderly Minister—which he never was —and if he had any competence—which he has not—he would not charge Deputies with making false statements when he has no evidence that they are false.

He should rather say untrue or inaccurate statements.

Precisely.

And he should not charge that the statements are untrue when there is the reference and the date there.

All sides of the House must hear the Deputy, and if they so desire, may reply in the usual way.

On a point of order.

The Deputy is purporting to quote a statement. Is he not required to quote the statement in full?

The Deputy has informed the House what he is quoting from. He quotes as much as suits his purpose and the Chair cannot compel him to read the whole report.

Any reference to the Minister for Finance by the Deputy in this connection is untrue.

Does the Minister mean that the President told an untruth?

There is no reference in that statement to the Minister for Finance.

The fact is that the statement was made by Deputy de Valera as he then was. He gave an interview to the Evening Herald. On the strength of that statement, and on on the strength of knowing that that was the policy of the Fianna Fáil Party, certain individuals in this State embarked on extensive operations when the Minister introduced his first Finance Bill, which removed the Excise duty on tobacco of Saorstát origin.

I wish to put this point to you, sir.

Is it a point of order?

Very well.

The Deputy has stated that the Minister for Finance has made such a statement.

I did not say that.

Deputy Dillon purported to quote from some paper a statement attributed to Deputy de Valera, as he then was, with references to the Minister for Finance in that quotation. He did not purport to quote the Minister for Finance.

I wish to say there is no reference to the Minister for Finance in the statement.

Does the Minister know what is in the statement?

I do not know precisely, but I know there is no reference to the Minister for Finance in it.

The Minister does not purport to deny that the statement was made by Deputy de Valera, as he then was. The Minister cannot deny that certain individuals in the State on the strength of that declaration by the President that this was the confirmed policy of himself and his colleagues undertook certain considerable expenditure after the Minister removed the duty on home-grown tobacco in the first Finance Bill in 1932. He cannot deny that since step by step the Minister has fallen back from the position which he took up originally; he has fallen back from the position taken up by Deputy de Valera, as he then was, when on his own behalf and on behalf of the Minister for Finance, the Minister for Agriculture and his colleagues, until now we are back into the position almost exactly occupied by the present Minister for Finance's predecessor in respect of the attitude of the Revenue Commissioners to tobacco growing in this country. Now I very well remember the hurly burly that was started in this country when the Minister took off the duty in respect of tobacco. I remember how the Irish Press sent out telegrams through the country to their various prominent supporters saying that the dawn of freedom had at last broken for the down-trodden tobacco growers of this country. Everyone was excited. A great new industry was set on foot. Tobacco fields were going to blossom all over Ireland. Great fortunes were going to be made by farmers here, there and everywhere. Slowly the unfortunate individuals who were deluded by Deputy de Valera's interview in 1929 and by the gesture of the Minister for Finance in 1932 have discovered that, instead of walking forward towards a grand new development, they have been steadily walking backward. This is another milestone on the road. It is just as well that Deputies of the Fianna Fáil Party should realise that this is another instance of the statements to which Deputy Dowdall referred here on one occasion. It was made before the election for the purpose of getting votes. A feeble, futile attempt was made to implement it after the election. Then the Minister for Finance got sense. Since he got sense, he has been gradually falling back from the ridiculous position into which he got himself with reference to tobacco. Now, the statement on the strength of which Deputy O'Reilly and many another Deputy stumped the country is being proven wholly and entirely false. The poor, deluded individuals who invested their capital and who took considerable risks in starting the tobacco growing business on the strength of the word of Deputy de Valera and the Minister now find themselves in a worse position than they were before they put their hand to tobacco growing. It is right the country should realise that and remember the distance we have travelled since the glorious days of insouciance when Deputies de Valera, MacEntee and Ryan, as they were then, were free to promise anything and everything to get votes, down to the day when they are all in ministerial posts and finding it more and more difficult to maintain the semblance of fidelity to the undertakings which they gave the people four or five years ago.

What will the revenue from this tax be?

£400 or £500.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 65; Níl, 39.

Tá.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neal.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Cleary, Mícheál.
  • Concannon, Helena.
  • Cooney, Eamonn.
  • Corkery, Daniel.
  • Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
  • Crowley, Timothy.
  • Davin, William.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Doherty, Hugh.
  • Donnelly, Eamon.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gibbons, Seán.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Hales, Thomas.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hayes, Seán.
  • Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
  • Houlihan, Patrick.
  • Keely, Séamus P.
  • Kehoe, Patrick.
  • Kelly, James Patrick.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
  • Kilroy, Michael.
  • Kissane, Eamonn.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Carty, Frank.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • Maguire, Conor Alexander.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Murphy, Patrick Stephen.
  • Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
  • Norton, William.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Dowd, Patrick.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Pearse, Margaret Mary.
  • Rice, Edward.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Francis C.

Níl.

  • Beckett, James Walter.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Bourke, Séamus.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Broderick, William Joseph.
  • Burke, James Michael.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Costello, John Aloysius.
  • Curran, Richard.
  • Daly, Patrick.
  • Desmond, William.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dolan, James Nicholas.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Esmonde, Osmond Grattan.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finlay, John.
  • Fitzgerald, Desmond.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • Keating, John.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McGovern, Patrick.
  • McGuire, James Ivan.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Morrisroe, James.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas Francis.
  • O'Mahony, The.
  • O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Redmond, Bridget Mary.
  • Rice, Vincent.
  • Rogers, Patrick James.
Tellers:— Tá: Deputies Little and Traynor; Níl: Deputies P.S. Doyle and Bennett.
Question declared carried.
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