Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 12 Dec 1934

Vol. 54 No. 6

In Committee on Finance. - Fruit and Vegetables Tribunal—Motion.

Minister for Agriculture (Dr. Ryan):

I move:—

That it is expedient that a tribunal be established for inquiring into certain definite matters of urgent public importance, that is to say:—

(a) the grading, packing and marking of fruit and vegetables by the producers thereof;

(b) the facilities provided by local authorities or otherwise afforded for the marketing of fruit and vegetables, and the conditions under which those commodities sold;

(c) whether the conditions under which fruit and vegetables are prepared for market and are subsequently marketed are such as to affect adversely the returns obtained by the producers of those commodities;

(d) whether the sale of imported fruit and vegetables should be prohibited unless sold in packages or other containers marked "imported"; and

(e) the steps, if any, which should be taken—

(i) to require producers to grade, pack and mark their fruit and vegetables in a manner to be prescribed by law,

(ii) to provide marketing facilities which will secure to the producer an equitable return for fruit and vegetables, either by regulation of existing markets or by the provision and subsequent regulation of new markets or by a system of direct dealing between producers and consumers, whether individually or collectively, and

(iii) to require that the sale, whether by wholesale or retail, of imported fruits and vegetables of specified kinds should be prohibited unless the packages or other containers thereof are marked "imported."

It has been alleged for some time past by wholesalers and retailers of vegetables and fruit, that home-grown fruit is neither packed, graded nor marketed in as good a condition as it should be and, for that reason, considerable difficulty has been caused to those concerned in the marketing of home-grown fruit. On the other hand, it has been alleged by the growers that they are not getting the facilities for marketing fruit and vegetables hitherto afforded to imported fruit and vegetables; and it has been complained by growers, and, to some extent, by consumers, that the difference in prices between the price the producers receive and the consumers pay is far too wide and is not justified. Of course, it is extremely difficult to decide all these matters, and to know who is right and who is wrong; whether complaints are justified, partly justified, or not justified at all. With the approval of the Government, it appears to me that the only fair thing to all interests concerned is to get a tribunal to inquire into these matters. As Deputies are aware, a tribunal can call evidence and can call for the production of documents, and will then be in a position to find out whether the allegations made by producers, wholesalers and consumers are true or not. It is accordingly proposed to set up this tribunal of inquiry. There are a few other matters which it would be well to have investigated while the tribunal is sitting. With regard to imported fruit, complaints under that heading have been few, but there have been some complaints that, for instance, imported tomatoes are sold as home-grown tomatoes. The tribunal will be able to find out whether that is true or not. The tribunal can investigate all the charges and allegations, can report upon them, and can make recommendations for dealing with the fruit business in future. The tribunal to be set up will have much the same power with regard to the taking and compelling of evidence as the High Court. On the whole, I think, that is a better form of inquiry than say the ordinary commission. I recommend the Resolution to the House.

Mr. Dillon:

I find myself in regard to this Resolution in the most extraordinary position, because I agree with almost every word the Minister for Agriculture has said.

Mr. Davin:

There is something wrong.

Mr. Dillon:

I almost feel as if there is something wrong. I agree that a great many of the allegations made in regard to the fruit trade require investigation and that it is extremely difficult to satisfy one's mind as to whether the allegations which are made of abuse in respect of the wholesaling of fruit are true or false. It will undoubtedly be in the public interest to have the fullest possible inquiry into the whole question to establish definitely what would be a fair proportion of the price to go to the producer and to the distributor. I think the Minister will probably find that there is foundation for the allegation that foreign tomatoes are being offered for a sale as home grown; and I think that is an abuse that ought to be rigorously dealt with. I am glad that the commission will be instructed to inquire as to the best means of securing differentiation in marketing between the home grown and the foreign article.

There is one other matter that I think the commission might have been invited to examine, and that is, the most effective means whereby the cultivation of fruit and vegetables might be promoted, because, as the House is aware, there is an enormous industry in the North of France and in the Channel Islands in both fruit and vegetables, which are cultivated there on the intensive system and for which there is an enormously remunerative market in England, and indeed in our own cities. Intensive cultivation of that kind is not being carried on so far as I am aware in this country and, of course, it does require a high degree of technical skill and a comparatively large investment of capital. I believe it would be well worth having an expert examination of the question as to how capital might be made available to comparatively small farmers with a view to making it possible for them to engage in this intensive form of market gardening; how best to ensure that persons who would make this investment and embark on this particular kind of trade would be provided with the technical education which is absolutely essential if it is to be successfully undertaken. I want to emphasise that, because if this intensive market gardening were undertaken by our people in a haphazard way it would involve these people in heavy losses. It is not at all like ordinary farming or, indeed, like ordinary market gardening. It is a highly technical and extremely difficult operation which, when carried out efficiently, is very remunerative and which has a number of by-products, if I may call them that, which can be turned to very profitable account. One such byproduct is the spent manure. In this high pressure-market gardening you have to use enormous quantities of fresh manure. It becomes unsuitable for the intensive work after it is cool manure; but it is invaluable for ordinary topdressing purposes. So that the industry is one of great value. This matter is closely associated with the Terms of Reference set out on the Order Paper, and I suggest to the Minister that he might think it desirable, either to set up a departmental committee in the Department of Agriculture to look into that question, or to add that question to the Terms of Reference of this commission, and invite them to make suggestions to him whereby to promote this very desirable branch of agriculture in the country.

Mr. Davin:

I welcome the proposal of the Minister to set up this tribunal because, unlike these long-winded commissions that sit for years and hardly ever submit a unanimous report, I think this is the best way to get the facts from the people who are able to furnish the facts to the Ministry and, therefore, guide the Ministry in organising the people concerned upon proper lines. It is rather unfortunate that the growers of fruit and vegetables in this country are completely unorganised, unlike other countries which are in a position to export fruit and vegetables to this country which need not be imported if our own growers were properly organised and had some Department of State to guide them and some better means than are at present available to enable them to dispose of the produce to better advantage.

I suppose I may assume that the individuals who will compose this tribunal are the members of the present Tariff Commission. At any rate, I should like to hear from the Minister if that is so. If not, I hope that people who are regarded as real experts, outside the Government Departments, will either be asked to sit on the tribunal or give evidence before it. If the tribunal is to consist of the three members of the present Tariff Commission, I think the Minister, if he thinks it advisable, should say something as to the policy of the Government from the point of view, for instance, of whether they agree that a marketing board for internal purposes is essential in existing circumstances. In the case of a large body of people—fruit growers and those who grow vegetables for sale—I think it is much more desirable, where these people are unorganised, that you should have some kind of State organisation like a marketing board to enable them to dispose of their produce to better advantage and at a profit instead of the present haphazard way of getting a market here and there for what they produce. There is no organised idea in the minds of the fruit growers here as far as I can see, especially when one considers the way in which the small farmers or fruit growers in some of the small Continental countries are catered for and the way they are able to organise their business. There is a clear case, in my opinion, for the establishment of a marketing board, and if the members of the tribunal are to be those comprising the Tariff Commission, I think it is absolutely essential, in view of the fact that they are civil servants, that the Minister should express some view or convey his view, if not through the medium of this House, certainly by way of memorandum to the individuals concerned, before they start the work that is now being given to them by this motion.

I have been told that foreign apples imported here—and there is a considerable quantity imported—hardly ever come here direct. They are landed in another country and are subject to charges which would not have to be imposed if imported direct. The consumer is naturally the person who has to pay for disadvantages of that kind. I do not know if this tribunal, whether it consists of civil servants or outsiders, is going to be in a position to find any way out of that difficulty. At any rate, if apples are to be imported in future it is desirable that they should be imported direct, if it is possible to have that done. Deputy McGilligan may have some useful advice to tender to the Minister in regard to the work of this tribunal. At any rate I should like to hear what he has to say in connection with the matter from the experience which he has had as Minister for Industry and Commerce.

Mr. McGilligan:

I am not exactly accepting that invitation. At any rate, I never remember an occasion on which it was proposed to set up a tribunal on which Deputy Davin was not the first in the field with vague complaints as to prices and conditions and facilities, or the absence of them. But in his usual way he put the cart before the horse. The Minister asks that there should be a marketing board.

Mr. Davin:

To say whether there should or not.

Mr. McGilligan:

The Deputy asks us to decide now that there should. Supposing that according to the circumstances of the inquiry it should be found that there should not? The Deputy wants the Minister to say there shall or there shall not be a marketing board. Supposing the answer to the reference is "No," then does the Deputy want a marketing board? That is the trouble where people rush in with a motion with preconceived ideas. The Minister gave the Deputy a good lead in the matter of prices. I may say that I am in favour of this commission being set up——

Mr. Davin:

Tribunal, not commission.

Mr. McGilligan:

It does not matter which it is called. Does the Deputy think that if a certain set of people are called a "tribunal" instead of a "commission" that they can accomplish more?

Mr. Davin:

They will have fuller powers as a tribunal.

Mr. McGilligan:

Give them these powers now. What does it matter what name you give them? Deputy Davin used to be full of complaints at one time about prices. The Minister is attempting to get this House, this deliberate Assembly, to pass a resolution "that it is expedient that a tribunal be established for inquiring into certain definite matters of urgent public importance." We should hear the case made for that motion. Complaints were made by Deputy Davin and others, but "it is hard to decide whether the complaints were justified or not." That is what the Minister said. Later on he said they had a few complaints and he asked us to establish this tribunal to inquire into certain definite matters. Deputy Davin will agree, of course, that they are matters of urgent public importance.

Mr. Davin:

And Deputy McGilligan will not disagree with that, I am sure.

Mr. McGilligan:

I think it is a matter of some importance to inquire into this, but it is not a matter of urgent public importance. It is clear, if we are going to get the results about which the Minister talks, that it must be on a different basis from the existing Prices Commission. The Minister talked about this being established under some Act of 1925. Is it not the Act which is called the Tribunal Evidence Act?

Dr. Ryan:

Yes.

Mr. McGilligan:

The Minister says he wants the fullest possible inquiry. That will entail publicity. It will entail that there should be some better method of eliciting information than what we have got at the Prices Commission. There, we have only the chairman allowed to ask questions and, if he likes to close down on a particular matter, nobody else can open that. I would like to have it assented to here by the Minister that when this question is going to be discussed we should say that the evidence, if it is to be properly collected, will require that the chairman should be a man who understands what evidence is and the method of eliciting it. There are serious matters to be considered—the grading, packing and marketing of fruit and vegetables by the producers thereof. That is a matter in which the chairman will have to rely on the evidence given by the producers and the corresponding evidence by those who buy. Now we come to the facilities provided or otherwise afforded by local authorities for the marketing of fruit and vegetables and the conditions under which those commodities are sold. That happens to be a biggish question. Next we come to the third matter: whether the conditions under which fruit and vegetables are prepared for market and are subsequently marketed are such as to affect adversely the returns obtained by the producers. That is a matter the calculations on which can only be arrived at after the proper evidence has been given. The more accurate the report we get the fuller and the more searching it will be. The last matter is to be determined by another body, but it it relevant that this particular body should deal with it also, that is whether the sale of imported fruit and vegetables should be prohibited unless sold in packages or other containers marked "imported."

Referring to recent examples given us by some meetings of the Prices Commission which was set up under the Tribunal of Inquiry Act, this tribunal has amongst other powers the power of authorising representation before it of any person seeming to be interested, by either solicitor or counsel or other person speaking on that person's behalf. It has also power to refuse to allow such representation. I wonder if the Minister would consider that this is a matter of sufficiently big importance to necessitate the appearance before that tribunal of people who will be able not merely to elicit information from the witnesses on their own but also to get from them in cross-examination additional evidence. This is the type of tribunal before which it is desirable that there should be cross-examination of the witnesses.

I submit that the evidence will not be properly got if the precedent set up by the Prices Commission will be followed—in which the chairman only can ask questions. If it is left to the witnesses concerned before that commission to make their own case, what will happen is that as soon as they give their evidence they will fade out. That is as soon as they have got rid of whatever information they have to give they will fade out. I am sure Deputy Davin will agree that it is desirable that the whole thing should be as searching as possible. The individual market gardener or tradesman cannot present a case or give us the information that we would look for afterwards. This is going to fit into the frame of the Tribunal of Inquiry, and the phrase I have quoted is from that. Such a tribunal set up under this Act may, or may not allow representation of the type to which I have alluded.

I want the Minister to indicate to us that it will be his advice or instruction to the commission that such representation should be allowed and a method of examination and cross-examination other than the examination by the chairman should be in practice. I think it is only when we get a report from the commission like that that we will be able to determine whether or not the setting up of a marketing board is essential. Deputy Davin has the feeling that the people who produce fruit and vegetables in this country are entirely unorganised. Even if they are the immediate reaction to that is not to say that we must have a marketing board. It will be far better if these people organised themselves than that they should be organised by a Government Department. It would be much better to have them organise themselves than to have some other body of the type that has been suggested pushed in and interpose in organising them. With these reservations in relation to examination of witnesses and representation, I am entirely in favour of the tribunal.

Dr. Ryan:

I think that this tribunal would not be the proper body to examine the point as to intensive cultivation of fruit and vegetables. A different type of body, consisting of experts from that point of view, would be required for that task. I am of opinion that the tribunal required in the present case is a tribunal in the habit of looking at things from the judicial, rather than from the expert, point of view. On that account, it is intended to ask members of the Tariff Commission to compose the tribunal. If they consent to act, we shall have a tribunal which has carried out two investigations under the Tribunal (Evidence) Act—the investigation which took place about 1931 into the mixture of maize with home-grown cereals and the investigation that took place last year into the pig and bacon trade. The chairman of that tribunal on both occasions will, if he consents to act, be chairman of this tribunal and I do not think that anything in the nature of what Deputy McGilligan mentioned is to be feared. I remember that on, at least, one occasion before this tribunal, people were permitted to be represented.

Mr. McGilligan:

The phrase is "the tribunal shall have power to authorise representation or to refuse to allow such representation."

Dr. Ryan:

That is so. At the time, I was somewhat surprised that representation was allowed. I was told, at that time, that the tribunal did not intend to refuse to allow representation except where it was sought to put forward trivial evidence to hold up the work of the tribunal. I do not think the tribunal would refuse for any other reason. I think we may assume that the chairman who conducted these two investigations will permit fair representation to anybody who has a case to put forward. Deputy McGilligan made the point that this does not appear to be a matter of urgent public importance. It is necessary under the Act to use those words.

Mr. McGilligan:

And to make the case.

Dr. Ryan:

I suppose, if there is a case, it is urgent. Even though it was not tackled for the last ten or twelve years, it is still as urgent as it was in 1921, and there is no doubt that it is of public importance. The difference between a commission and a tribunal is one of powers. Though the personnel might be the same, there is a difference as regards powers and that is why we have chosen this form of tribunal. Members of the Tariff Commission will be asked to act. I have no reason to think that they will refuse. If they consent, we shall have at least two members who acted before on these tribunals, and who will have had experience of conducting this type of investigation.

Mr. Dillon:

Will the Minister say that it is his view that persons interested in the matters contained in the terms of reference should be allowed to appear by counsel or solicitor?

Dr. Ryan:

I certainly think they should.

Mr. Dillon:

And you will make that suggestion to the tribunal?

Mr. Davin:

Is there any organisation capable of selecting individuals to give evidence on behalf of the producers?

Dr. Ryan:

There is a Fruit Growers' Association. It may not represent the majority of fruit growers, but it may be sufficiently organised to make a case before the tribunal.

Question put and agreed to.