Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 Feb 1935

Vol. 54 No. 13

Pounds (Provision and Maintenance) Bill, 1935—Second Stage.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Lemass)

On behalf of the Minister for Justice, I move: "That this Bill be now read a Second Time." The Bill is a routine measure. It was prepared in the Department of Justice many years ago and is being introduced now because the need for it has increased. It provides for the establishment and maintenance of pounds by local authorities. The present legal position is most unsatisfactory, the principal statute dealing with the matter being the Summary Jurisdiction Act of 1851. That Act imposes on local authorities the duty of providing pounds on being so requisitioned by three or more justices of the peace, under the present practice by the district justice. The expenditure which may be incurred is limited to the sum of £10. The legislation is antiquated and is obviously unsuited for the present time. The result is that in the great majority of counties the number of pounds is altogether inadequate; indeed, there are some counties in which no pound accommodation exists. Owing to the limitation of expenditure such pounds as are provided are quite unsuitable for the keeping of animals, especially during bad and inclement weather.

The necessity for the provision of proper pound accommodation is obvious. Pounds are required to facilitate the execution of court decrees with which the local ratepayers are vitally concerned and they are essential for the keeping of animals found straying on the public highways to the danger and the inconvenience of the legitimate users of these highways. The present Bill provides that each local authority shall provide and maintain in its area such pounds as the county registrar, with the approval of the Minister for Justice, shall direct and it removes the present limited expenditure of £10 which, as I have stated, is quite inadequate.

General Mulcahy

The measure so innocuously introduced by the Minister for Industry and Commerce takes on quite a different complexion for other people. I should like to describe this as a Bill for the better provision of machinery for getting the accursed crowd out of the Government's way, to use the Minister for Justice's own nice phrase—a phrase upon which he started off on his Ministerial mission. The Minister tells us that there are not sufficient pounds in the country, and he is anxious to have pounds provided in which animals can be kept away from inclement weather. There certainly are not sufficient pounds in the country to meet the type of work that is being carried on at present by sheriffs under the direction of the Ministry and its policy. The House was informed to-day that some aspects of the Ministerial policy as regards farmers are so peculiar that Government advertisements have to be refused to newspapers that will not boost that policy. The farmers who are suffering under that particular kind of policy have now to provide pounds, out of what funds they can gather, the better to get themselves out of the way of the present Ministry. There are not sufficient pounds in the country—admitted.

Mr. MacEntee

It is not proposed to confine the followers of the Deputy in these pounds.

General Mulcahy

Unfortunately, it has come to be too well-known that a policy cannot be pursued here in this country against the accursed crowd without hitting other people, and followers of the Ministerial policy throughout the country are experiencing the effects of that policy and are having their cattle gathered up in the small hours of the morning and other hours during the day and put into pounds.

Mr. Killilea

And taken in military lorries and brought to Dublin.

General Mulcahy

I should like to hear the Deputy discuss this Bill, particularly in relation to the county he represents.

Mr. MacEntee

We should like to hear the Deputy who is speaking discuss it.

General Mulcahy

The pounds are not big enough to meet the present policy. Just take this as a specimen. A ratepayer in Offaly got a bill for £25 5s. 11d. for rates. He got that bill six months after the date he ought to have got it and within three months a seizure was made upon him. The fact that the county council owed him more money than he owes the council and that he asked the council to put that money against the bill does not enter into this particular case, but what does enter into it is this——

Mr. Lemass

I suggest that it does not enter into this Bill.

General Mulcahy

It does not enter into this Bill, but what does enter this Bill is——

Mr. Lemass

Wandering cattle and seized asses.

General Mulcahy

Will the Minister just listen? He is asking to have pounds provided. Here is a list of things seized and that had to be impounded for a bill for rates of £25 5s. 11d. I mention the fact that the county council owed the gentleman £27 15s. in order to clear his character.

Mr. Lemass

I gather there was a pound there.

General Mulcahy

I am not quite sure whether there was or not. Whoever seized two horses, one foal, one cart, one Victor mowing machine, one wheel rake, one hay rake, one Deering binder, one seed plough, one weighing scales and 13 cattle, to meet a bill for rates amounting to £25, wanted a pound.

An Ceann Comhairle

The title of the Bill is the Pounds (Provision and Maintenance) Bill, and the title clearly indicates the limits of the discussion which will be relevant to this Bill. It certainly is not in order to discuss Ministerial policy regarding land annuities, rating, and seizures on this measure.

General Mulcahy

I want to argue, as part of the Second Reading discussion on this, that in Offaly, for one place, there are sufficient pounds not to have the ratepayers further mulcted to provide pounds to meet a situation which one particular specimen can describe. The attitude of the Ministry is that when goods like these are seized pounds have to be provided for them; and it is unreasonable to impose, with penalties for all kinds of interference, a further burden on the ratepayers. Section 9 provides: "Every person who damages or breaks into any pound or releases from or takes out of any pound any animals or cattle lawfully impounded therein; or uses violence, threats or bribes for the purpose of securing the release from or the taking away of any animal or cattle lawfully impounded in any pound; or uses violence, threats, or bribes for the purpose of inducing or preventing any person who has been appointed under this Act to be a pound-keeper or to be assistant to a pound-keeper from undertaking or executing the office of such keeper or assistant; or for the purpose of inducing any such person to execute the duties of such office, corruptly or negligently, shall be guilty of an offence under this section..." Where a Bill contains a provision like that, with a penalty of £50, I think that Deputies are only discharging a public duty when they point out that at present it is possible for the sheriff to seize, at the instance of a rate collector, from a man to whom the county council owes £27 15s., these particular articles in respect of a claim that they have against him for rates for £25 5s. 11d., and that action of that kind is an incitement to violence and an incitement to interfere with pounds, goods in pounds, and the people looking after them.

Mr. Lemass

I want to inform the Deputy that the gentleman who he says has a claim against the county council might require the use of a pound in case he got a decree and seized on the county council's property.

General Mulcahy

It ought not to be necessary for the farmers of Offaly to be saddled with additional expenditure simply because the Ministry cannot control the administration of the Department of Local Government, on the one hand, or the administration of the Department of Justice on the other hand. I should like to ask the Minister if the Westmeath County Council under this Bill are going to be asked either to extend or improve the pound which already exists at Mullingar. At the present time the Ministry are not using it.

Mr. Lemass

They do not have to.

General Mulcahy

The policy of the Ministry is such that they use a pound there which they have established for themselves inside barbed wire in the old military barracks. This is a question which might very well be asked in the discussion of this Bill: who is to be responsible for accidents happening to beasts in these pounds? On Saturday last, in respect of a land annuity of £7 10s., two cows and a calf were seized in Mullingar and put into the pound which the Ministry are providing for themselves there, declining to use the one provided by the county council. It was found on Tuesday, when the auction took place, that both those cows had seriously injured their udders against the barbed wire. They had not been milked for more than 24 hours, and the owner suffered to a large extent through a loss of value as a result of the serious injuries to those cows. I should like to ask who is going to be responsible for damage that takes place inside those pounds in cases where cattle have been seized and taken away from the custody of the people who owned them. The question that requires to be answered with regard to County Westmeath is why the present pound in Mullingar is not being used, and whether the ratepayers of County Westmeath are going to be mulcted for a further sum.

Mr. Lemass

The answer to that question shows how ridiculous are all the Deputy's arguments.

General Mulcahy

I hope to hear the Minister dealing with my ridiculous arguments in such a way as will enlighten the local bodies of this country as to the extent to which they have to provide new pounds to meet the present situation, which is an entirely abnormal situation brought about by the pursuit of an abnormal and brutal policy on the part of the Government.

Mr. Dillon

If anyone ever raises a monument to the glories of Fianna Fáil, and to the prosperity and blessings which they have conferred upon this country, I suggest that on the pedestal of that monument this Bill should be inserted.

Mr. Lemass

That is not a bad idea.

Mr. Dillon

I do not think it is a bad idea. I think it is a good thing that posterity should know that after three years of Fianna Fáil administration it was discovered that the existing pound accommodation in this country was not enough.

Mr. Lemass

The joke is that it was found out long before that.

Mr. Dillon

The people of this country have been reduced to such a condition now, after three years of this benevolent administration, that there is scarcely a farmer in the country, from one end of it to the other, who does not find himself unable to meet his legal obligation. In the early stages of this, there was a paean of joy going up from the benches of Fianna Fáil that now the ranchers and the big fellows were going to get it in the neck. Every covetous rascal in this country thought he would come into his own.

Mr. Lemass

In the pound? The Bill deals with pounds.

General Mulcahy

Yes—in the pound. If the Minister will sit in silence——

Mr. Lemass

I am going to ask the Ceann Comhairle if he is prepared to sit in silence.

Mr. Dillon

Let the Minister keep quiet. He will have plenty of time to talk at the end. I usually manage to get the Minister humming.

Mr. Lemass

Because the Deputy is usually most irrelevant.

Mr. Dillon

The covetous gentlemen who looked forward with glee and anticipation to their more industrious neighbours' property being removed to the pound have now begun to discover that the policy which began by beggaring the hard-working farmers is beggaring everybody else as well.

An Ceann Comhairle

As I have already stated, Government policy in regard to rates and land annuities has no relation to this measure, which deals with the maintenance of pounds.

General Mulcahy

And provision of pounds.

An Ceann Comhairle

Provision and maintenance of pounds.

Mr. Dillon

Surely I am entitled to inquire why it is that the Fianna Fáil Government wants more pounds.

Mr. Lemass

Having regard to the fact that under the existing law seized cattle can be impounded anywhere——

Mr. Dillon

I am entitled to ask why the Fianna Fáil Government wants more pounds. We got along with the pounds we had for many a long day, and now President de Valera is blessing us with more pounds. Why?

Mr. Lemass

Better pounds.

Mr. Dillon

In order to accommodate the cattle that his Government is seizing from the hardworking people of this country. Why is he seizing those cattle? Is it for his personal amusement, or is it because he is such an incompetent that he has reduced this country to a heap of ruins in the course of three years? My argument is that it is because he is so incompetent as head of the Government of this country that it is impossible for the vast majority of the people of this country to meet their legal obligations in the ordinary way. The ordinary way would be to sell their produce in their ordinary markets, and, with the money they get, to pay their way. Instead of that, we are going to provide pounds in every parish in Ireland. Instead of allowing a man to go out and sell his cattle, or whatever he has, in the ordinary market, and discharge his obligations, we have such a case as Deputy Mulcahy referred to, where for a comparatively trifling debt—say, £25 or £26—£200 or £300 worth of property is going to be removed to the pounds to be provided under this Bill, and sold to the members of the secret police for half or quarter of their value. That is a development which is introduced on a note of jocularity by the Minister for Industry and Commerce. This at least may be said, that the Minister for Justice had not the indecency to come in and introduce it himself. He knew perfectly well the issues that would be raised upon this Bill, and the moral that would be pointed.

Mr. Lemass

The Minister's absence is due to illness.

Mr. Dillon

I met the Minister a short time ago in the corridor, and I am glad to say that he was looking remarkably well.

Mr. Lemass

He has just gone home.

Mr. Dillon

I hope he will soon be completely restored to health.

Mr. Lemass

Perhaps the Deputy will now withdraw his rather indecent suggestion.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister knows perfectly well that if the Minister for Justice is in any way indisposed I share his regret. The Minister knows perfectly well also that if I was betrayed into an indiscretion in that matter it was with no intention of offering an insult to Mr. Ruttledge. I very much regret if he is temporarily indisposed. In many ways this Bill may serve a useful purpose—not certainly the prime purpose set out on its face, but in bringing home to the people in every village where the Minister for Justice arrives with his mason to erect a pound what Fianna Fáil has done for the country. I think our friends on the Fianna Fáil back benches, some of whom have been extremely industrious in interrupting, should rise and tell us now why it is that at this critical stage of the national progress, when we are marching with our heads erect towards the Republic, we have got to prepare for the Republic by erecting pounds in every parish in the land. Perhaps Deputy Donnelly will tell us something about that or perhaps the Deputy sitting behind him can explain to us now the necessity for those pounds. Why do we want those pounds? What has happened in the course of the last two or three years that has made the pound accommodation of this country inadequate?

Mr. Donnelly

Your campaign of telling the people not to pay rates.

Mr. Dillon

There was a period in 1875 when there was a considerable growth in the pound accommodation of this country, and it took a long time to bring about a situation in which all those pounds fell into a desuetude in which they crumbled away, and in which they ceased to be a feature of the everyday life of the country because the people wanted to pay their way and were able to pay their way. Why this recrudescence of pounds? Is it because this country is being brought back to the same position in which it was in the seventies of the last century? A good many people will begin to ask themselves whether that is the reason. I suggest to the Deputies on the back benches of Fianna Fáil that it is the reason. You want more pounds, and if you go on much longer you will want more and more pounds to accommodate the property of every citizen of this State, and it will not be Fianna Fáil's fault if those pounds will proceed to fall into the desuetude which their forerunners fell into 50 years ago.

Mr. Bennett

I object to this particular Bill for a number of reasons. One of the first and principal reasons is that the Minister has not told us what liability the various county councils are likely to incur under this Bill when it becomes an Act.

Mr. Lemass

The same as at present.

Mr. Bennett

Not at all. At present a county council is liable for one or two pounds, which were quite adequate when they were built, but this Bill is going to make it incumbent upon county councils to provide pounds wherever the registrar demands them. It may be that we will have to have a pound for every parish or half-parish; and every one of these must be suitably equipped. The Minister said that those we have in existence are inadequate. If pounds are to be properly equipped for the keeping of dairy cows, seized in mid-winter, it is going to entail very heavy expense upon county councils. I may mention, incidentally, that I was present at the sale two days before Christmas Day of six dairy cows which had been impounded in one of those pounds for five or six days, and I say the situation was absolutely deplorable. These cows were kept in a pound during the most severe weather we have had this winter. They were seized six days before Christmas Day and sold four days later. Subsequently, three of these cattle aborted by reason of the treatment they received in the pound.

Mr. Lemass

Is that the reason you are going to vote against this Bill?

Mr. Bennett

No, it is the policy I am going to vote against. If suitable pounds are to be provided against such occurrences as I have mentioned they will have to be increased by 1,000, if they are to be adequate, and if we are to provide against the driving of dairy cows unsuitable distances both in mid-winter and mid-summer. If we are to provide suitable accommodation for the miscellaneous collection of seized property, such as Deputy Mulcahy illustrated, dairy cows, dry cattle, horses, furniture, and goods and chattels of every description, it is not one but five or six pounds that will be necessary in every parish. The county councils are, at the will of the registrar, to provide pounds in every district. We do not know the amount in cash that every county council will have to be responsible for in such circumstances. If only on these grounds we are justified in opposing this Bill. To the knowledge of the Minister the county councils of Ireland are quite unable to provide the services that originally they were intended to provide, and now we are going to put upon them an expenditure of which the Minister could not give us a reasonable estimate.

Another objection to this measure is this: The Government are going to provide all these pounds or places for impounding animals, at the command of the registrar, who, in turn, acts on the command of the Minister, as a temporary necessity. When the present policy of the Minister is replaced, or when the present Ministry goes out of office, another policy will have been substituted. There was quite sufficient pound accommodation during the régime of the previous Government; in fact, some of the pounds fell into disuse because they were not needed. We are going now, under this Bill, to undertake at great expense to provide pounds for a temporary necessity in order suitably to maintain animals impounded. We are going to put all this unwarranted expenditure upon the county councils and, incidentally, upon the ratepayers. This Bill provides for a lot of things but one thing is not provided for by this Bill. If the pounds are necessary, in the temporary circumstances of the unfortunate policy of the Ministry, provision has to be made for the pound-keepers and for the duties of the pound-keepers, but I do not see any section providing that the pound-keepers shall properly care and feed the animals. It is notorious, in connection with seizures in the country, that not alone was the accommodation, owing to the temporary necessity, inadequate, but what was worse, the cattle were not fed.

One thing that should be provided for, above all others, is that if cattle are seized they should be properly fed. It is notorious, in almost every instance that that was not so. Here in this Bill, which prescribes the duties of the pound-keeper, there is not one word to provide for the feeding and maintenance of the unfortunate animals that are seized. Are we then to have a recurrence of the incident to which I called attention, the abortion of milch cattle in the country and the cruelty of store cattle being kept in pounds on inadequate food? We had an instance of a seizure in Limerick where 18 or 20 infant calves were fed upon hay because the pound-keeper could not provide milk. Provision should be made for suitable feeding for animals when impounded. The necessity for this Bill is only temporary. The situation does not call for permanent pounds to be put up at the expense of the ratepayer. There is no shortage of pounds if ordinary conditions prevailed in the country. The only shortage of pounds there is, so far as the farmers are concerned, is the shortage of the pound usually referred to as £ s. d., and that is very short.

Minister for Finance (Mr. MacEntee)

I must confess I am very much astonished at the attitude of the Opposition in regard to this Bill. We have had a considerable number of questions appearing on the Order Paper, from week to week, as to the condition in which cattle have been found after their release from the pounds that are already in existence throughout the country. Fired with a high sense of their duty to the animal kingdom the Opposition have criticised the Government for not making better provision for the maintenance and detention of animals that have been seized. It is largely due to the efforts which the Opposition have made in that regard that this Bill is introduced here to-day. I would have thought they would have hailed this as one of their Parliamentary triumphs. I am thoroughly at a loss to account for the attitude they have taken up in regard to it. I can only assume it is because they are afraid that the pounds will be used, not merely for the detention of long-eared and long-tailed animals, but of long-tongued ones as well, in which event, of course——

Mr. Belton

Be very careful or we will provide a pound for you in County Dublin.

Mr. MacEntee

——there would be a notable depletion of the Opposition ranks. We have been told by Deputy Dillon that what has made it necessary for the Government to take special steps to collect the rates and the land annuities has been primarily the inability of the people concerned to pay. There is a question on the Order Paper to-day, in the name of Deputy Bennett, which relates to a seizure of furniture at the residence of Colonel Liam Fraher, of Bruff, County Limerick, for arrears of land annuities. That seizure, as Deputy Bennett was told, was made at 11.30 in the morning.

Mr. Bennett

At 2.30 in the morning.

Mr. MacEntee

At 11.30 in the morning the seizure was made. The furniture was in the possession of the police officers at 11.30 in the morning. Owing to a conspiracy, in which, I believe, Deputy Bennett had an active part——

General Mulcahy

Is he going to be tried for it?

Mr. Bennett

Is the Minister in order in making that reference? I was not present at or near the sale.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister should not, in the House, accuse any Deputy of being a party to a conspiracy.

Mr. O'Leary

He has to try to whitewash himself some way.

Mr. MacEntee

I withdraw the charge of conspiracy.

General Mulcahy

Is the Minister going to make it in the court?

Mr. MacEntee

Owing, in any event, to the action of those who support Deputy Bennett in this House and elsewhere——

General Mulcahy

What action?

Mr. MacEntee

——the sheriff's officers were not in a position to remove the furniture until early on the following morning. When they were in a position to remove the furniture, the amount which was due for land annuities and which up to that moment had not been paid was forthcoming.

An Ceann Comhairle

As that case will be discussed on the motion for the adjournment, it should not be discussed now.

Mr. MacEntee

It has only relevance to the argument that is being used on the other side that one of the reasons why it is necessary to make better provision for the detention of seized animals in this country is that people are not able to pay their land annuities.

Mr. O'Leary

They have paid them already.

Mr. MacEntee

The gentleman concerned in this is a gentleman who has a pension from the State and who received, I believe, a large grant of land and a very handsome lump sum on retiring from the Army.

General Mulcahy

Is he paying for his land?

Mr. MacEntee

In any event, he was able to pay his land annuities when his furniture was going to be removed.

Mr. O'Leary

Under duress.

Mr. Donnelly

Good man!

Mr. O'Leary

Just the same as we are paying them to England.

Mr. MacEntee

Then the position of the Opposition is that honest men will only pay their debts under duress.

Mr. O'Leary

They have paid them already, according to the President.

Mr. MacEntee

That is only one sample. Deputy Bennett's own cattle were seized——

An Ceann Comhairle

Previous speakers have been ruled out of order for attempting to introduce particular cases to illustrate the methods of collecting land annuities and rates. The Minister should not follow that line.

Mr. O'Leary

Let him go on. We will give him lán a mhála of it.

Mr. MacEntee

I am not going to pursue that line any more; we will leave it there.

Mr. O'Leary

It is just as well.

Mr. MacEntee

We will come back to this point, that the reason why pounds are necessary is in order that the animals which have to be seized by the action of the sheriff—it is a well known method of collecting a debt and enforcing a creditor's rights on a debtor—may be properly cared for.

The reason for the Bill is that the pounds in this country have not been properly maintained, and that, as Deputy Bennett himself has admitted, very serious hardship is caused to animals and possibly very serious loss inflicted upon their owners. As it is probable that pounds will have to be employed for a little while longer in the country, until this movement is dealt with, as it will be dealt with, everything should be done to ensure that animals which are seized in these circumstances will, when produced for sale, be in a proper and healthy condition, or, if returned to their owners on payment of their debts, as in the case of Colonel Fraher's property, they will be returned in as good a condition as that in which they were when seized.

That is the whole purpose of the Bill. I do not know what regulations will be made for the proper maintenance of the animals when they are in the pound, but I am perfectly certain that if the owners of these animals—I am making this point in reply to the point which I presume Deputy Belton is going to make—want them to have a mustard bath or to be wrapped up in flannel or cotton wool, the local authorities will be perfectly prepared to make provision for doing that at the expense of those to whom they belong.

Mr. Belton

The Minister for Finance made a brave attempt to say something, but he said nothing and, of course, he is going now for fear he might hear anything. I regret that I was not present to hear the Minister's reasons for introducing this Bill, but from what I could gather from subsequent speakers, I do not think he said anything to justify it.

General Mulcahy

He said it was a routine matter.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy certainly could not gather anything else from the speeches of subsequent speakers.

Mr. Belton

I know the Minister would want to be a superman and not the moderate man he is if he could say anything to justify such a Bill, so that I do not think the subsequent speakers could have been far wrong in saying that the Minister put up no argument to justify this measure. I notice that all these duties are imposed on the local authority without giving the local authority any authority over the pounds. They cannot even appoint the pound-keeper; he must be appointed, and his duties specified, by the county registrar, over whom the local authority has no authority. I see that my old friend is introduced for the convenience of the Attorney-General— mandamus bristling all over the Bill. All pounds that were necessary in this country were there before the present abnormal conditions came about. In fact, there were too many pounds. It is only a while ago since we in the Dublin County Council handed over a pound to a man who made use of one wall of it to build a new house. We gave him the pound to make a yard. I suppose when the Minister for Justice has his flying squad up to the point of efficiency, that pounds or a substitute pound in the locality will be required. And for what purpose? The Minister for Finance said it was the usual method for a creditor when a debtor will not pay his debts, to seize the goods of that debtor and put his stock into pound. But every Minister who sits on those benches knows in his heart —every member on the Fianna Fáil benches and every supporter of theirs in the country knows—that this is not a case of the collection of a debt. They know that before this monstrous tyranny was imposed on this country that, as a matter of fact, these pounds were going into ruin for want of use. Nobody wanted them. The people were paying their debts until this tyranny was imposed by the Fianna Fáil Government. The Minister for Finance referred to a conspiracy and was pulled up. But I say that a conspiracy is necessary in every townland in the Free State to prevent the farmers from having to pay their land annuities twice over.

An Ceann Comhairle

The legality or equity of the collection of annuities once or twice does not arise under this Bill.

Mr. Belton

I accept your ruling, Sir, but these pounds have no justification except to impound or to imprison cattle of alleged defaulters of annuities which have already been paid.

Mr. Lemass

Yes, but we will want some place in which to keep wandering asses.

Mr. Belton

We never had more jackasses or nanny goats in this country than now.

Mr. Lemass

Jackasses are wandering about.

Mr. Belton

There are a lot of them wandering about on the political platforms now throughout the country.

Mr. Lemass

That is what we want the pounds for.

Mr. Belton

I hope the Minister will erect a pound on his platforms when he is going around the country.

Mr. Donnelly

The Deputy has no platform.

Mr. Belton

Nobody is so blind as those who will not see. The Minister does not want to see. I put it to the Minister whether or not there were enough pounds in this country to house the cattle seized for ordinary debts until he became a Minister? There was not a pound scarcely in use in the whole country. As a matter of fact the question of a pound came up in some way or another a year or two ago at a meeting of the Dublin County Council. There was not a councillor present who could tell us whether there was or was not a pound in the county. And we were supposed to be in control. The reason was that there was no use for a pound. The people were paying their debts. The Minister may sneer at that. But he has not to dig a living out of a farm at the present time. If he had, the smile on his face would be the other way now. Boiled down to practical utility, these pounds are wanted all over the country for one purpose only and that is to impound the cattle seized from the farmers of the country for an alleged default in the land annuities that the British Government have told President de Valera they have already collected.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy surely realises that his present argument is not relevant. The Title of the Bill indicates the proper limits of discussion. This Bill should not be made a peg on which to hang a discussion of the policy of the Government in regard to land annuities.

Mr. Belton

I do not intend to attempt a discussion on the general policy of the Government nor even on the policy of the Government on the question of land annuities. But the proposal is to erect pounds. There must be some justification for their erection. I am only mentioning the position in connection with land annuities as being the only justification for the erection of pounds. I will leave the matter at that. I shall be very interested to hear the Minister or any member of the Government Party here give us any other reason for this attention to pounds just now. I notice in the Bill Section 6 (1), which reads:—

Every pound-keeper shall control and manage the pound of which he is appointed pound-keeper under this Act but such control and management shall be for and on behalf of and subject to the directions of the county registrar.

The county council must build the pound. First of all, the county registrar shall tell the county council that a pound is wanted in a district. The county council must erect that pound there. If not my friend the Attorney-General will bring his old reliable mandamus; the pound is ordered in that particular district and has to be built. The keeper of the pound is appointed by the registrar, and his duties and perhaps his remuneration are classified. I have not read the whole of the Bill in detail, but the local authority is to pay the piper. The county registrar, over whom the local authority has no control, calls the tune. This, of course, is another manifestation of the manner in which the present Government supports democratic control and administration. In Section 7 (1) we have:—

Whenever a local authority fails or neglects to maintain in proper order and condition any pound which such authority is required by this Act to maintain, the Minister may authorise the county registrar to procure such repairs or other work to be done to such pound as may be necessary.

Mr. Lemass

If the Deputy had read the Bill before starting to speak on it he would know more about it.

General Mulcahy

He knows it is only for wandering asses.

Mr. Belton

Perhaps the Minister will show his knowledge of the Bill when he gets up to speak.

Mr. Lemass

It is not much, but it is more than the Deputy's.

An Ceann Comhairle

In this case the Minister will have the advantage of concluding the debate.

Mr. Belton

When the cattle are put into those pounds, the local authority has to provide food and to maintain them to the extent of £10. All this must be done on the order of the county registrar, over whom the local authority, which in nearly every case will be the county council, has no control. It really does not matter about this Bill because, as a matter of fact, the more of this kind of stuff that is dumped on this House and ventilated here the better. It shows the incompetency of the present Administration and its absolute failure to appreciate conditions in this country.

Mr. McGovern

Is the pound one of the new industries in this country?

Mr. Belton

Yes. The Minister for Local Government is not here, but I wonder will there be a remission of rates and the usual housing grants for these pounds? The Minister for Finance a few minutes ago made a speech in which he told us nothing. But the Minister for Finance knows what this country is up against at the present time. He knows that the advice of his Department was sought recently on the condition of——

An Ceann Comhairle

——pounds?

Mr. Belton

No, of the country. His Department was sought for for advice as to the desperate condition in which the country finds itself. Now we are to have more pounds, not £ s. d. They are providing more pounds to house the seized cattle. There is no use in repeating the argument; the Minister knows it and I do not want to go against the ruling of the Chair.

I am glad the Government have brought this in. I am glad they are showing their hand. I know that any Deputy in the Government Party with any pretensions to farming is conspicuous now by his absence, but he will have to answer for a lot when he goes down to the cross-roads. The Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Attorney-General do not come across petitions from their followers, but I know that petitions are rolling in every day dealing with the subject of how the Government are handling the agricultural position. The only reply they have to give to people who are very much concerned about the financial stability of the country and who consulted the Minister for Finance and his advisers very recently—the only answer they have to give those people and their own followers through the country is the provision of more pounds to imprison cattle seized from farmers for a debt already paid. They are going to make the local authorities keep the animals in good condition so that the friends of the Minister for Defence can come down from South Armagh and take the cattle from Clonmel in good condition across the Border.

Mr. Roddy

The Minister when he was introducing this Bill did not indicate in what areas or counties these additional pounds are required.

Mr. Lemass

I did not say anything about additional pounds.

Mr. Roddy

I do not know whether I am right in my interpretation of Section 1, but it does appear to me that the Bill only applies to areas where the county registrar combines the dual functions of county registrar and sheriff.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy has not read the Bill.

Mr. Roddy

I have, and I submit that at least I know as much about it as the Minister does. It appears to me that the Bill is confined to the areas where the county registrar combines the dual functions to which I have referred and the Bill is not, therefore, applicable to areas where you have a county registrar and a sheriff at present functioning. If that is the case, then this Bill is limited in its application to certain defined areas. I do not know in how many areas you have the county registrar combining the dual functions.

The Attorney-General

Look at the definition section—the expression "county registrar" includes an under-sheriff.

Mr. Roddy

It does not appear to me to be very clear.

Mr. Lemass

The expression "county registrar" includes an under-sheriff.

General Mulcahy

The job is done thoroughly.

Mr. Lemass

That is set out in the second line of Section 1 and apparently the Deputy did not get very far in his reading of the Bill.

Mr. Roddy

I did read it and I must say it is not very clear. The Bill as drafted places the county councils in a most extraordinary and unique position. The county councils are expected to contribute money for the erection and maintenance of pounds and they have not one word to say in regard to the expenditure of the money or the management of the pounds subsequently. Surely that is treating local authorities in a most autocratic way? In sub-section (1) of Section 2 it is a matter for the county registrar to decide where additional pounds are necessary. On the other hand, the local authority may be very definitely of the opinion that such additional pounds are not necessary. There you have a difference of opinion. The county registrar will persist in his view that the pounds are necessary, although the opposite view is held by the local authority. The members of the local council, who know the requirements of their areas intimately and who know the accommodation already in existence for the purpose of accommodating the seizures made by Government officials throughout the country, are forced, simply at the behest of an official who may or may not be acting fairly or justly, to provide additional accommodation and to spend an additional share of the ratepayers' money. It seems to me that it is iniquitous to expect local bodies to contribute the ratepayers' money in this fashion without a shred of control either in regard to the expenditure of the money on the erection of pounds or the maintenance of the pounds subsequently. So far as my knowledge of certain parts of the country is concerned, I am satisfied that there is ample pound accommodation. The Minister has not attempted to indicate the areas in which this additional pound accommodation is required.

Mr. Lemass

I did not say anything about additional pound accommodation.

Mr. Roddy

At all events, the Bill says it—

"every local authority shall provide ... such pounds as the county registrar shall, with the approval of the Minister, direct...."

Mr. Lemass

As it is, the local authority is bound to provide a pound on the recommendation of the district justice.

Mr. Roddy

Under this Bill every local authority is required to maintain every pound provided by them under the measure. The local authority has nothing to say to the expenditure of the money. The function of the local authority is to provide the money; they exercise no control over the expenditure of that money. The Bill is certainly not a credit to the administration of the present Government. It is, however, definitely an indication of one of the results which that administration has brought upon the people of this country after a period of three years.

Mr. MacDermot

I am not going to add another to the speeches that have been made on this Bill.

Mr. Lemass

What is this—an interruption?

Mr. MacDermot

I would not like the discussion to conclude without drawing attention to the contrast between the role the Minister for Industry and Commerce is filling on this occasion and that which he generally fills in this House. He generally comes to us here to recommend tariffs, quotas, prohibitions and all sorts of molly-coddling for all the minor industries of the country. He recommends trade loans, trade loan guarantees by the Government and what-not—everything is done for them. That is what he generally asks us for. On this occasion, however, he comes here to produce a policy for agriculture, the queen of Irish industries. What is his policy? Pounds to keep the farmers' cattle.

Mr. Lemass

And the wandering asses.

Mr. Brennan

The need for the introduction of this Bill is certainly a very strange and a sad commentary on the present Government's policy. I think the Minister and the other members of the Government would be very well advised to ask themselves why there is a need for such a measure as this. There is no use in shelving the issue or attempting to side-track it. The Minister knows perfectly well that there is something wrong in this country that has brought about the need for pounds. It is one or other of two things, and for neither of these two things can the Government deny responsibility. One is that the people are unable to pay, and the other is that they have become so demoralised that they do not want to pay their debts. That is the reason for the pounds. It is indeed a sad commentary on the administration if this co-called democratic Government, the members of which told us when they were coming into power that they were going to establish a Government which would depend on respect for the law, not upon such things as Coercion Acts or anything like that. Respect for the law —and this is what we have!

My real objection to the Bill, as has been pointed out by Deputies Roddy and Belton, is that the county registrar, a Government official, is the man who is in authority. If the Government wants pounds provided for their own purposes and for their own officials to be in control and in command, why do they not erect them? I remember on many occasions hearing and being a party to county councils in the past passing resolutions against the state of affairs that existed, under which they were responsible, as they are still responsible, for the maintenance of courthouses while the sheriff held the control. Now we have this carried forward and emblazoned in this Bill. Not alone is this democratic Government calling upon the people to build pounds, and going to take these pounds out of the hands of the people's representatives into their own hands, but even though the county council will appoint the pound-keeper, the Minister has the right to dismiss him. If that is the Government's idea of democracy they can have it; but I do not think that many people will agree with it.

Of course, there is another side to this. If the Government want to get over this difficulty they will have to create such a situation in this country, both morally and materially, that there will be no necessity for pounds as the people will be able to pay their debts. If they go by the statements of people like the Minister for Defence and the Minister for Lands, pounds will not be required in another year's time because we will have no live stock trade in this country and there will be nothing to put into them. Taking it any way, the Bill, in my opinion, is a mistake, and is very ill-conceived from the point of view that the ratepayers have to erect the pounds and maintain them and appoint the pound-keeper and pay him; while the Minister has the power to dismiss him. I think that is ridiculous and absurd.

Mr. Fagan

I do not see any necessity for this Bill. In the County Westmeath the county council have provided pounds in Mullingar, Moate and other towns. The Government, however, are not using these pounds as they have a special pound of their own with a special squad in the barracks at Mullingar. If the Government would only settle the economic war they would not want any pounds. It is a shame and a disgrace for any Government to bring in a Bill such as this. In Westmeath they have a squad with ten or twelve motor cars which leaves the old barracks every morning and goes out to a townland and stays there for three days. They might have only four or five decrees for that townland and they go into four or five houses. The sons and daughters of these people who are visited can be seen running to their neighbours to borrow the money to get rid of these court messengers. It is a shame and a disgrace for any Government to have a thing like that happening. I ask the Minister or some responsible person to travel for a few days in Westmeath with these court messengers, and he will come up against the poverty that exists there. There is no movement in Westmeath against the payment of rates and annuities—it is sheer poverty and necessity which prevent them being paid. The Government should withdraw the Bill and settle the economic war and then there will be no need for pounds.

Mr. Cosgrave

The Minister made an observation during the course of the debate that there were wandering asses and goats in the country.

Mr. Lemass

And that pounds are necessary for them.

Mr. Cosgrave

One would assume from that observation that this was really to keep the roads clear and to ensure that there will be no accidents to flying squads meandering through the country, and that that was the intention behind the Bill. But really the operative section is Section 2 which says: "Every local authority shall provide in the functional area of such local authority such pounds as the county registrar shall, with the approval of the Minister, direct..." So that a single Government official in an area can insist, with the sanction of the Minister, on having as many pounds provided in the area as he thinks fit, and the expense in connection with the provision and management of these is to be borne by the ratepayers.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy does not agree with that?

Mr. Cosgrave

I do not. I consider that in these matters there should be the greatest possible care taken to avoid any clash between the Government official and the local authority. I speak with some experience in connection with that matter as a member of a local authority for a good many years, and I say that there is a disposition on the part of officials of local authorities, and of local authorities themselves, to have disputes with people who interfere with them, or whose area is adjoining theirs, or who in any way come into contact with them and are not under the direction of the particular local authority in question. In many instances, where courthouses are under the control of the local authority, if a person, perhaps not living in the area, draws attention to some defect, unless the greatest possible care is taken there is a conflict. I think that even the Attorney-General is aware of that. In this particular instance we cannot ignore the fact that within the last two years an Act was passed which transferred certain powers from the courts to the county registrar. The county registrar, or the sheriff, now gets from the Land Commission authority to collect land annuities. He is armed with an authority equivalent to that sort of a court. The official charged with that particular duty in many counties, having from 5,000 to 10,000 of these instruments which are equivalent to court orders, informs the Minister that he wants more pounds— that he is going to get busy. Is not that the fact? That cannot be denied. Even the statements made by Ministers as to the number of cases in which, with the assistance of the county registrar, land annuities have been collected bear out my statement. The person whose duty it is to issue these instruments, which are equivalent to a court decree, finds that he wants the number of pounds in his district doubled or trebled or quadrupled and, as long as he gets the consent of the Minister, the local authority has no option except to provide them. Their work in connection with housing, roads, sewerage, public health, etc., is going to be interrupted if the sheriff comes knocking at the door. He has the authority of the Minister; he has mandamuses, and every possible scheme that ingenuity can devise to make the ratepayers pay the costs of what one individual, subject to no authority except the sanction of the Minister, can demand. It is not a good system by any means. The registrar writes up to the Minister and says that he wants four, ten or 20 pounds. What does the Minister do? Ask the Civic Guards are they necessary or write over to the Land Commission inquiring how many decrees the sheriff is going to issue, and if he finds that he has a 1,000, he will give him 1,000 pounds if he wants them? What corrective is there on the Minister in connection with this? None. These two individuals are absolute in their power and discretion as to the expense that may be placed on the local authority in connection with this.

That, to my mind, is not good business. There ought to be some association between the sheriff and the local authority before such machinery as can be put into operation by means of this Act could enforce costs upon the local authority. Then you come along to Section 5, sub-section (4), which says that every pound-keeper appointed may be dismissed by the Minister, no cause being given. I do not expect that is going to be done except in perhaps very isolated cases, but even a pound-keeper has some rights in the matter. Every morning he may expect a note from a Minister saying that he is dismissed and there is no more about it. In the general run of cases a man appointed by the local authority is appointed in the first instance at, let us say X pounds per annum, and he goes from that to X and a quarter pounds after a certain number of years. The moment a man is dismissed the county registrar can appoint another man at the salary then prevailing. Later on the county council appoints its man, and probably appoints him at X pounds instead of X and a quarter pounds. That does not appear to be good business. We go on then to a case in which the county registrar directs that there is a wall to be repaired, or some other costs to be incurred in connection with the improvement or the maintenance of the pounds. The county registrar, who knows nothing perhaps about building or anything of that sort, spends money on this place, and all he has got to do is to send up the accounts to the Minister. There is nothing in the Bill to show that the Minister will exercise any discretion in connection with the matter, and I am positively certain that in this case the Minister probably knows as much about building as the county registrar. He simply puts on his imprimatur, and the county council is mulcted at once in perhaps twice the costs. It may so happen that the local authority may not meet for a couple of weeks; nevertheless the county registrar can operate, ordering the goods, maybe, at the highest price, and the local authority is mulcted in the whole amount. The whole thing is symbolic of the state of affairs in the country. If it were not for the section in the Land Act which gave authority to the county registrar to impound people's property without any other authority than a direction from the Land Commission there would be no necessity for this Bill. The Minister's smile is indicative of his agreement.

Mr. Lemass

I will tell the Deputy the joke in a minute.

Mr. O'Leary

I wish to protest against this Bill. Since the old landlord system was done away with, it was one consolation to the people to see that there was no necessity for a pound in the country. In my experience all over the area with which I am connected there was no necessity for pounds for the last 13 years, at any rate. The present Government as a result of their own policy now see the necessity for re-establishing them. I do not wish unduly to take up the time of the House, but I should like to refer to an accusation which was made by the Minister for Finance that we on those benches had advised the annuitants not to pay their annuities. We did not advise the tenants not to pay their annuities, but I myself as a farmer feel that they have paid their annuities under duress. The Minister also said that one of the reasons for putting up those pounds was that they had to take special steps to collect those annuities. I maintain that they have already been paid, and in that connection I can give no stronger argument than the statement of President de Valera, speaking on economic conditions in the Saorstát, as reported in Volume 54, No. 5 of the Official Debates of the 19th December last:—

"The President: As far as we are concerned, we came back here on Tuesday, prepared to sit all night and all week if necessary. As I was saying, our attitude towards the British market has been simply this: There were £5,000,000 odd being paid out of this country, which we believed were not due from this country. Deputy MacDermot tells us that one of the reasons why the British would be kind to us would be to enable us to pay that £5,000,000; in other words, that they would take it in kind. We would pay over our cattle, and the value of that meant that in 1931 we would be getting 8d. a head net when we paid over that £5,000,000. I quite agree that the British would be very anxious to give us that opportunity. Of course, they would, and they would be right and wise in doing so. Our attitude, however, was that this money is not due. We are prepared to sit down and talk about it and put it to arbitration, if necessary, but we are not going to pay it.

Mr. O'Leary: But we have paid it.

The President: Not with our will.

Mr. O'Leary: I am glad the President admits it.

The President: It has been taken from this country wrongfully, I admit.

Mr. McGilligan: But it is going.

The President: I have pointed out that there are people who think they are being well treated when they are given an opportunity of sending over all their fat cattle to pay a debt which is not due. Well, it does not matter either way, as far as the actual result is concerned, to anyone, because it is taken from us against our will, and, I believe, wrongfully. We have got to resist, as best we can, that wrongful taking away; but our attitude has been at no time an attitude of not using any market we could get."

There it is in black and white in the words of the President that we have already paid those annuities. I certainly say that the tenants of this country have every right to protest against paying them a second time. There is nothing morally wrong in their doing so.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister for Finance was prevented from pursuing that line of argument, and I think the Deputy has got quite sufficient latitude to make his point.

Mr. O'Leary

I think I have answered the Minister, and I do not think it is necessary for me to continue. The Minister for Finance made accusations against us——

An Ceann Comhairle

And the Deputy got his opportunity of replying.

Mr. McGovern

I do not mean to say much on this matter; I merely rise to protest against the Bill. I remember in my young days I did not know what a pound was like. Now, people are so accustomed to pounds and jails for the last five or six months that they do not know when their cattle will be in the pound or when they themselves will be in jail. So far as the farmers are concerned that is the position, and I am sorry that it has come about. I wish to make the strongest possible protest against that. It does not matter so much who pays for the pounds or who controls them. That is relatively a small matter, but I consider it important as showing the mind of the Government, showing the trend of things, showing what is passing in their minds, and what they have in view for the country. It simply means that what we regarded as an abnormal period, during what is called the economic war, is going to be made normal. The abnormal is going to be made normal by the present Government, as far as I can see. It appears now that the pounds and jails are going to be the latest industry which the Minister for Industry and Commerce will have to boast about. I wonder will he go down the country with his key to open all those pounds.

Mr. McMenamin

And to get his photograph taken!

Mr. McGovern

I shall be very glad to see him there, and to hear what he tells the farmers when he goes down to open those pounds. I suppose there will be a Bill for opening jails after this.

An Ceann Comhairle

We have not got it yet.

Mr. McGovern

I expect we will have it soon, but I hope the present Government will be put out before there is any need for it. I hope the jails are not overflowing yet. I am not going to delay the House, but I should just like to read a quotation which will give the House an idea of what condition Fianna Fáil is leading the country to—something which we did not ever expect to see fulfilled during the régime of the Fianna Fáil Government:

"Guards will be set on every crossroads to prevent trespass. There will be three great cesses or taxes laid on so that the poor men of the nation will deny houses and property. Pounds will be filled with cattle and the jails with men for the non-payment of cesses; thus men will be in confinement without a crime."

That is an extract from the Prophecies of Saint Columbkille, translated from the Irish Parchments, 592, by the Rev. M. Taafe, and published in 1860. The people who lived in those times did not think the time was so near, and certainly nobody thought that Fianna Fáil, after the beautiful promises which they made to the country, were the Party which were going to fulfil this terrible prophecy of Saint Columbkille.

Mr. Lemass

I have been somewhat disconcerted by the length and the irrelevance of the discussion which has taken place on this Bill. I have also been somewhat surprised by the more than usual discrepancies in the arguments from the various Deputies on the opposite benches. I gathered from Deputy Mulcahy's speech and also from the speech of Deputy Bennett and, to some extent, that of Deputy Belton, that although they had a vague inkling of the necessity for this measure, they were prevented by some political prejudice from doing anything or saying anything in its favour, although they appreciated that some such measure was required. In these circumstances, in so far as their speeches might be taken as conveying some appreciation —however indirectly—of the fact that the Government was rising to its responsibilities and carrying out its duties, I am rather inclined to let the credit come to us in the ordinary course. Of course, we had a speech from Deputy Roddy, in whose opinion the Bill was no credit to the Government. He was followed by Deputy Brennan and then by Deputy Cosgrave, who proceeded to criticise the Bill in detail.

Now we did not conceive this Bill; we did not frame it or print it. The Bill was fathered by the late Cosgrave Administration. Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney, the late Minister for Justice, was the author of this Bill. He had it drafted exactly in the form in which it now appears before the Dáil. He sent it to the Department of the then Attorney-General. I notice that the ex-Attorney-General has just left the House. He guessed what was coming. When the Executive Council debated and approved it eight years ago, Deputy Cosgrave was in the Chair, but Deputy Cosgrave now criticises this Bill a great deal. Well, it is their Bill. It was they who framed it, approved of it and actually printed it, but for some reason best known to themselves they did not introduce it.

General Mulcahy

The asses stopped wandering.

Mr. Lemass

Deputy Mulcahy has made the proper interruption. You can always tell, long in advance, what Deputy Mulcahy is going to say and what interruptions he will make, and you can frame your speech in the circumstances that Deputy Mulcahy is going to co-operate with you.

General Mulcahy

You can do everything but have an answer.

Mr. Lemass

This Bill was not introduced then because another Bill was thought of to take its place. Another Bill was brought in much more drastic in its effects, a Bill relating to pounds, not arising out of the present situation or the non-payment of land annuities, but relating to what were the normal circumstances of the day when Deputy Mulcahy and Deputy Cosgrave and their colleagues were the governors of the country—the Court Orders Act of 1926. That Act enables the under-sheriff to seize and impound cattle anywhere, whether in a legal pound or not. If Deputies opposite had taken the slightest trouble to read this Bill, and particularly if they had read their own legislation relating to pounds, if they had even endeavoured to show some logical sequence in their ideas to indicate the knowledge they possessed about the conditions throughout the country, they would not make the foolish speeches that they made to-day. Deputies commented on the fact that pounds are being used which are not county council pounds? Why? Because there was a Bill passed in the Dáil in 1926, on the initiative of the then Government which enabled those pounds to be used, and which enabled cattle to be impounded anywhere; and they were so impounded in any class of pound. The Government to-day should be commended for their humanity; it is a more humane Government. These pounds which were being used in the past, we were told to-day by Deputies opposite, are getting into decay; they were not suitable for the proper housing of seized cattle or wandering asses or straying goats. So we are going to build bigger and better pounds for the housing of wandering asses and straying goats and for the housing of any cattle that it may be necessary to seize.

Deputy Mulcahy had some ideas as to what our intentions were when he said that this Bill was designed to provide machinery for the purpose of getting the Opposition out of the Government's way. That was the first sentence of his speech. I can assure Deputy Mulcahy that it is not necessary to associate the Party opposite with wandering asses and goats. They do not embarrass the Government; they simply amuse us.

General Mulcahy

The policy of March, 1932, is dropped.

Mr. Lemass

The Opposition have got out of the way; they are in their own way to a considerable extent, and we need no longer concern ourselves about them. This Bill, as I explained, merely enacts in modern form existing legislation. There is an Act for the provision of pounds in operation here since 1851. That Act which had Deputy Cosgrave's approval did not confer any discretion on the county councils as to how many pounds they were to provide. That Act required the county councils to provide whatever pounds were necessary on the requisition of three justices of the peace. At the present time they must provide whatever pounds are necessary on the requisition of the District Justice. This Bill merely substitutes the county registrar: that is one of the changes. Another change is to remove the inadequate limitation of £10 which under the existing law is the maximum amount that the county council could spend upon the provision of a pound. If pounds are unsuitable to do what Deputy Bennett pointed out and what Deputy Brennan pointed out and what Deputy Dillon and Deputy Mulcahy pointed out they must be replaced.

General Mulcahy

I pointed out that the ones provided by the Board of Works with barbed wire at the present time are unsuitable.

Mr. Lemass

Bigger and better pounds are to be provided. Deputy Dillon, who in one of his usual speeches indicated that he did not know what the Bill was, that he had not read the Bill, and, even if he did read it that he did not understand it, made the suggestion that this Bill should appear on the base of a monument erected in Dublin to the Government. It is not a bad idea. The provision of pounds is essential to the preservation of civilisation. A pound is essential to the preservation of civilised conditions in any country.

Mr. Brennan

Pity it was not in the "Plan."

Mr. Lemass

If Deputies would only think it out they would realise that there is something in it, not merely because they are necessary to enforce court decrees, whether Deputies like to have them enforced or not, but also because modern conditions require it. Straying asses and wandering goats must be removed and must be provided with the accommodation that they require in a pound. Deputies also might remember the necessity for reading the Bill and trying to understand it before talking about what is in it. For instance, the functions of pound-keepers is dealt with in the Bill. Deputy Bennett made an impassioned speech on the failure of the Government to provide that pound-keepers should feed the cattle in their charge. Obviously he had not read the Bill. That is in the Bill, and the operation of the Bill will provide more effectively than is provided for by the present law for the proper custody of cattle or animals of any kind in pounds.

I do not think this Bill has any connection with the campaign, with which Deputies opposite are associated, for the non-payment of land annuities. Whatever powers are required to deal with a campaign of that kind were provided by the Act of 1926, to which I have referred. This Bill is necessary in order to prevent pounds falling into decay and pounds being located in unsuitable conditions and to provide simpler and better machinery for the provision of new pounds or the replacement of unsuitable pounds. Deputy Mulcahy objected to the provision in the Bill which makes it illegal to break into pounds or to remove animals from pounds. The Deputy is wandering far from the path of constitutionalism. The bravos of his Party went to Kilkenny pound, twice, I think, and although that pound consists of a yard surrounded by houses inhabited by a number of human beings—not animals—they exploded bombs and mines of various descriptions in that pound and endangered the lives of the people in these houses.

Mr. O'Leary

You never did anything like that at all.

Mr. Cosgrave

Was there anybody hurt?

Mr. Lemass

Nobody was hurt, but the livelihood of people living in those houses, most of which were being used as boarding houses and the like, was destroyed.

Mr. Cosgrave

There have been explosions which endangered life and there has been very little about them.

Mr. Lemass

Does the Deputy want to have a discussion about them, because we can have it if he likes?

Mr. Cosgrave

Do not be too irrelevant.

Mr. Lemass

There is the campaign, but if the Bill for pounds was necessitated by any policy, it was not necessitated by Government policy——

Mr. Bennett

Government policy absolutely.

Mr. Lemass

——but by the policy of the Opposition. It is the policy of the Opposition that was responsible for any campaign for non-payment of annuities that may have been initiated in any part of the country and that may have been the cause of any seizures and sales of stock in order to recoup the State for the amount due and not paid by certain farmers. It is the Opposition did that, and it is such speeches as we have just heard from Deputy O'Leary, speeches which are deliberately made by members of the Party opposite throughout the country and which are subversive of all government and all morality——

Mr. O'Leary

Do you deny the statement of the President that the annuities are already paid?

Mr. Lemass

I am saying that such a speech as we have just heard from Deputy O'Leary——

Mr. O'Leary

Do you repudiate the statement of your President that the annuities are already paid to England?

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. O'Leary

Do you repudiate that statement, I ask you?

Mr. Belton

He cannot.

Mr. O'Leary

You are dumb now.

Mr. Lemass

Such statements are deliberately made to induce the poor fools to believe in the members opposite and to refuse to pay their annuities.

Mr. Belton

They do not refuse to pay them; they have paid them already and the Minister knows it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. Belton

We have a city Minister brought in here to deal with this measure.

Mr. Lemass

Who are these people who are not paying their annuities? They are people who can well afford to pay, in the majority of cases. The poor people have paid—paid on the nail and paid without question, people in Donegal, and Mayo and Kerry, and in the poorer areas where your campaign made no progress. It is only amongst the wealthier classes—the people who are concerned to destroy the authority of any Irish Government, because they do not want to see an Irish Government —that there was a response to your appeals.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister must not pursue that line of argument any further.

Mr. Belton

Too far. They have not endeavoured to destroy an Irish Government half as much as the Minister.

Mr. Lemass

This Bill does not arise out of that campaign.

Mr. Belton

It does.

Mr. Lemass

This Bill is purely a routine measure, bringing up to date legislation which has always been in operation here. It was devised, as I said, by Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney; it was framed by Deputy Costello; it was approved by Deputy Cosgrave; and it was already printed in the Department of Justice when the present Government came into office. Now vote against it.

Mr. Cosgrave

In the year 1926, when Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney was not Minister for Justice, or a member of this House.

Mr. Belton

That is a hard one.

Mr. Brennan

That is a bad slip.

Question put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 53; Níl, 39.

Tá.

• Aiken, Frank.
• Boland, Gerald.
• Bourke, Daniel.
• Brady, Brian.
• Breathnach, Cormac.
• Breen, Daniel.
• Briscoe, Robert.
• Corish, Richard.
• Corry, Martin John.
• Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
• Crowley, Timothy.
• Daly, Denis.
• De Valera, Eamon.
• Doherty, Hugh.
• Donnelly, Eamon.
• Flinn, Hugo V.
• Flynn, John.
• Flynn, Stephen.
• Murphy, Patrick Stephen.
• Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
• Norton, William.
• O Briain, Donnchadh.
• O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
• O'Dowd, Patrick.
• O'Grady, Seán.
• O'Reilly, Matthew.
• Pattison, James P.
• Gibbons, Seán.
• Goulding, John.
• Hales, Thomas.
• Harris, Thomas.
• Hayes, Seán.
• Keely, Séamus P.
• Kelly, James Patrick.
• Kelly, Thomas.
• Killilea, Mark.
• Kissane, Eamonn.
• Lemass, Seán F.
• Little, Patrick John.
• MacEntee, Seán.
• Maguire, Ben.
• Maguire, Conor Alexander.
• Moane, Edward.
• Moore, Séamus.
• Moylan, Seán.
• Pearse, Margaret Mary.
• Rice, Edward.
• Ryan, James.
• Ryan, Martin.
• Sheridan, Michael.
• Smith, Patrick.
• Walsh, Richard.
• Ward, Francis C.

Níl.

• Belton, Patrick.
• Bennett, George Cecil.
• Bourke, Séamus.
• Brennan, Michael.
• Burke, James Michael.
• Burke, Patrick.
• Cosgrave, William T.
• Costello, John Aloysius.
• Curran, Richard.
• Davis, Michael.
• Dillon, James M.
• Doyle, Peadar S.
• Esmonde, Osmond Grattan.
• Fagan, Charles,
• Finlay, John.
• Fitzgerald, Desmond.
• Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
• Good, John.
• Holohan, Richard.
• Keating, John.
• MacDermot, Frank.
• McFadden, Michael Og.
• McGilligan, Patrick.
• McGovern, Patrick.
• McGuire, James Ivan.
• McMenamin, Daniel.
• Morrisroe, James.
• Mulcahy, Richard.
• Nally, Martin.
• O'Higgins, Thomas Francis.
• O'Leary, Daniel.
• O'Mahony, The.
• O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
• O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
• Redmond, Bridget Mary.
• Rice, Vincent.
• Roddy, Martin.
• Thrift, William Edward.
• Wall, Nicholas.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Little and Smith; Níl, Deputies Doyle and Bennett.

Motion declared carried.

Committee Stage fixed for Wednesday, 27th February, 1935.