Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 7 Mar 1935

Vol. 55 No. 4

Public Business. - Vote No. 58—Railways.

—I move:—

Go ndeontar suim Bhreise ná raghaidh thar £2,356 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh Márta, 1935, chun íocaíocht fé Acht na mBóthar Iarainn, 1924, agus chun crícheanna eile bhaineann le hiompar in Eirinn.

That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £2,356 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1935, for payments under the Railways Act, 1924, and for other purposes connected with Irish transport.

With regard to sub-head C, the position is that in the year 1911 the Congested Districts Board advanced a sum of £7,500 to the Galway Bay Steamboat Company for the purchase of the steamer, "Dun Aengus," to be used for the transport of passengers, live stock, and goods between the Aran Islands and the City of Galway. The Congested Districts Board provided, in addition, an annual subsidy of £1,100 out of which the loan instalments were met. This arrangement continued up to 1926. Additional grants were made to the company in the years in which heavy repairs to the vessel had to be undertaken. An investigation by officers of the Department of Industry and Commerce into the company's position resulted in a decision to permit the company to suspend payment of the loan instalments for the four years 1926 to 1929, the subsidy for these years being fixed at £1,000.

In consequence of economies in working resulting from other activities undertaken by the company, the loss in working on the "Dun Aengus" was reduced and for the years 1930 and 1931 payments of £500 and £600 respectively only were made. For 1932 the subsidy had again to be fixed at £1,000 owing to exceptional repairs which had to be carried out on the vessel. With a view to equalising the annual charge to the State, an agreement was prepared which provided for the payment to the company of a fixed subsidy at the rate of £300 per year from the 1st January, 1933, and the writing off of the outstanding balance of £3,693 10s. 6d. of the original loan account. The company's assent to this agreement was only notified in November, 1934, and the £300 originally provided under this sub-head in the main Estimate was applied in accordance with the terms of the agreement in discharge of the 1933 liability. The provision now required is to meet the payment for the year 1934.

There is a second item included in the sum also which arises from the fact that for the period from 1st January, 1931, to 31st May, 1932, during which the State-subsidised Sligo-Killybegs steamer service was in operation, harbour dues at Killybegs were not paid owing to a dispute as to the scale of charges applicable. Agreement has now been reached as to the basis of charge and the sum of £56 is required to discharge the outstanding liability.

Sub-head CC provides for a payment to the Londonderry-Lough Swilly Railway Company. It will be remembered that in anticipation of the undertaking by the company of the reorganisation of their entire undertaking, made possible under the provisions of the Railways Act, 1933. and the Road Transport Act, 1933, a subsidy was provided in 1934 to make good a moiety of the loss on working for the year 1933. The subsidy was paid on the understanding that no further subsidies of that nature would be considered. However, unexpected difficulties arose in effecting the reorganisation of the undertaking, principally in the matter of raising the additional capital required, and also because of the postponement to 1st July, 1934, of the date for the coming into operation of the Road Transport Act, 1933. The position which it was hoped to have reached in 1934 has, therefore, had to be postponed for a further year. Substantial progress has now been made in the preliminary stages of the reorganisation and the subsidy is proposed to make good to the company a moiety of the loss on working in the year 1934. I understand that a corresponding payment, although on a different basis, will be made by the Government of Northern Ireland.

The next sub-head is an unusual item and arises from the fact that certain sums were due to the State by this company. The first of these represents the unpaid moieties and percentages which have accrued as from the 1st July, 1922, under the provisions of the Irish Railways (Confirmation of Agreement) Act, 1919, as continued by the Irish Railways (Settlement of Claims) Act, 1921. The liabilities in respect of the Carndonagh and Burtonport sections were based on the results of working for 1913 when the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Company were allowed, out of gross revenue, £3 10s. per mile, per week, for working these lines, a moiety of the balance of gross revenue in each case being payable to the Government as the owners of the line. The liability in respect of the Letterkenny Railway is based on a pre-war agreement under which the line was to be worked for 65 per cent. of the gross revenue, the balance of 35 per cent. being similarly payable to the Government, through the Board of Works, as mortgagees in possession. The sums due to the Government had to be retained by the company, however, to meet working expenses and the total liability which thus accrued to the 31st December, 1934, is as follows: in respect of the Carndonagh extension, £5,900 4s. 8d.; in respect of the Burtonport extension, £18,234 6s. 4d.; in respect of the Letterkenny Railway, £28,362 9s. 8d.; making a total of £52,497 0s. 8d.

While these moieties and percentages are legally due under the provisions of the Act I have referred to, there is a very strong case in equity for their remission, as during the entire period the working expenses of these lines have been substantially in excess of the gross revenue. In fact, owing to the continuance of losses in working and the inability of the company to meet them, it has been necessary since 1924 for the Saorstát Government and the Government of Northern Ireland to contribute equally in payments to the company to enable the lines to be kept open for traffic. The total Saorstát advances made during the years 1924 to 1934 amounted to £54,191.

With regard to these advances it is claimed that the losses incurred by the company in keeping open the three Government lines since 1922 exceeded the amount of the advances, and, while separate working accounts have not been kept, it is thought that the company's contention is well founded. It may be observed that the corresponding payments made by the Government of Northern Ireland have been treated as free grants and there is no obligation on the company to repay any portion of them. It is proposed, therefore, to wipe out this obligation. No charge on the Exchequer will arise on account of the sums made available under this sub-head, as a similar amount will be brought into credit as appropriations-in-aid. This procedure is necessary in order to have on record the formal approval of the Dáil to the writing off of these amounts.

In regard to the procedure, whereunder these sums first come before us as an estimate of expenditure, and subsequently as an appropriation-in-aid, does that simply mean that the Government will hand the company a cheque representing public money and that it will be handed back to us?

Where does the money come from to finance the appropriation-in-aid?

It does not come. That is the trouble. This is merely a book-keeping arrangement. The moneys are legally due by the company, and are being written off.

It is merely a loan we are now being asked to write off? The fiction is that the company pays the loan and we hand it back to them?

I should first like to ask the Minister a question in connection with sub-head C. I take it that sub-head C has to be read in conjunction with a sub-head which we had a few days ago on Vote 53 for Fisheries. There we had a sub-head EE, which represented moneys due to the Minister for Agriculture in respect of an amount advanced to the Galway Steamboat Company in the years 1911 and 1912. A balance of £3,694 odd has been wiped out, and I understand that in future this provision is to be considered as State liability. Is the Minister satisfied, having examined the figures, that this annual charge will be adequate to maintain the service and that it will not be necessary to come back to the House and ask for larger sums in future years?

There has been an agreement with the company.

The Minister will recognise that the agreement is not worth the paper it is written on, because you will have to maintain some kind of service. Is he satisfied, after examination of all the facts, that the position is now sufficiently satisfactory to give us a reasonable hope that the annual subsidy will not grow into something greater? If the Minister believes that this is only a makeshift arrangement, and that he might have to come to the Dáil next year for £500 and in the following year perhaps for £600, it would be very much better to face the job now and to take such steps as are necessary, even to the extent of providing a new boat, in order to make the line a thoroughly efficient service and one in respect of which we can see the ultimate limit of our liability.

Sub-head CC raises a very large question in regard to the transport conditions obtaining in County Donegal. I take it the sums under CC and CCC represent the conclusions of the existing transport services of the county. I think the Minister ought to inform the House of what plans he has in mind for the purpose of providing County Donegal with alternative accommodation both as to goods traffic and passenger traffic. The Minister set up recently a Commission to consider the desirability of establishing a deep-sea port in Donegal. Of course I believe that the Commission in question was set up for no other purpose than to throw dust in the eyes of the more gullible supporters of Deputy Blaney, Deputy Brady and Deputy O'Doherty.

Mr. Brady

And of Deputy Dillon.

It was manifestly absurd to suggest that there should be established in any part of County Donegal a really efficient deep-sea port in the accepted sense of that term, whatever might be said for a proposal either to repair the existing ports and improve them, or in the alternative to link up Ballyshannon and Sligo by rail and to link up Stranorlar and Raphoe. Whatever course is adopted with reference to the deep-sea port proposition, some accommodation will have to be provided for that part of the county which is being stripped of accommodation by the winding up of the Lough Swilly Railway that serves the north and practically the entire west down as far as Dungloe or Burtonport. The situation is peculiarly difficult, because the roads in West Donegal or in North-west Donegal are extremely inadequate already. The Minister may have observed that the attention of his colleague, the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, was called to the fact that the roads to the Rosses and southern end of Gweedore are already almost impassable for the ordinary traffic to that area. To imagine that any volume of goods traffic can be carried through the Burtonport country on the existing road accommodation is perfectly absurd.

I have heard a lot of talk about a grand scheme which was to isolate Derry, and if the political incompetence of the present Government carries us to the conclusion that we must reconcile ourselves to the permanent exclusion of the Six Counties from the rest of Ireland, and we are forced to determine finally on the material destruction of the City of Derry by diverting the Donegal business to the town of Sligo, surely that should be borne in mind when the Minister is devising whatever plans he intends to adopt, to substitute for the Lough Swilly Railway and the other railway systems in the north of the county. Surely he ought to make up his mind before he winds up this railway what he is going to do about the deep-sea port business? If he makes up his mind that the best way to handle that situation is to give Donegal an effective connection with Sligo, he must then determine whether he is going to end his railway system at Stranorlar or whether the additional traffic that will come up from Sligo, if it were connected with Stranorlar and Raphoe, should be carried on to the Lough Swilly system.

If he makes up his mind that the Lough Swilly Railway and the railway to Carndonagh must go, then he ought to consider taking the Minister for Local Government into consultation with a view to devising a completely new road system for the north and the west of the county. That is a very formidable enterprise. I do not know how familiar the Minister is with the condition obtaining in any part of the county, but it will be nothing short of a major catastrophe for the densely populated areas in the Gweedore and the Rosses areas if this railway system is allowed to collapse before adequate road accommodation is provided. If it does collapse, it will enormously complicate the task of making that provision, because while it will be a comparatively simple thing to provide adequate roads, so long as there is comparatively light traffic over them, it will be a desperate enterprise if a really effective system of roads has to be built while the entire traffic of that part of the country is travelling over them.

It is some time since the Minister dealt with this question of the railways and I expect that, when referring to these two items, he will tell us to-night when he expects these two railway lines to close down—or does he intend to close them down finally? The purpose of my opening remarks was to urge upon him, with all the emphasis at my disposal, that before arriving at a determination of that matter, he should arrive at some understanding with the Minister for Local Government and Public Health as to the disposition of the roads, and that he should impress on the Executive Council the necessity for taking heroic measures in regard to the roads in that part of the country. I think that the Minister might also take this occasion to inform us as to whether or not he has received the report of the Commission which he set up to consider the question of transport in Donegal and whether his mind is moving in the direction of creating a new Cobh in the west of Donegal or the proposal of linking up Sligo with the rest of the county and orienting the rest of the county in that direction.

I seem to remember the Minister, when he was defending an Estimate in connection with these matters before, saying to Deputy Good, "I am asking for these moneys on the clear understanding that this is the last application to this House for moneys to defray the losses on the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway Company," but I see that under sub-head CC he is asking for £2,000 more.

That is so.

Perhaps the Minister will explain that to us.

I did explain it. I referred to the fact that the last subsidy was given on the understanding that it would be the last subsidy.

Perhaps the Minister will explain why he changed his mind.

I have done so.

Perhaps the Minister will also explain why he is satisfied that transport will be made available from some other source than the roads of County Donegal, because that source will not be adequate to provide the kind of accommodation, or even to provide the minimum accommodation, that will be required in the event of these railways closing down.

There is one question that I should like to ask the Minister. I should like to ask him whether, in connection with these subsidies, he has considered the necessity for appointing nominees, or claiming the right to nominate at least one director, either in the case of a railway company or a shipping company. We all know the way a railway director is appointed, and very few people have confidence in railway directors because of the manner of their appointment. It seems to me that when the State subsidises shipping companies or railway companies they should be entitled to nominate a director to see that their money is secured by decent management. I am quite sure that the shipping companies, at all events—because they are of comparatively small importance—have not got the very biggest men in the country on their boards, and it would seem to me that the State could improve matters a little by claiming and exercising the right of nominating a director. It is quite possible that this matter has been considered by the Minister's Department, but I should like him to say whether it has or not, and to tell us that where the State's money is going out the State should have a voice in the spending of that money and in seeing that it should be repayable by good money.

The Minister to conclude.

Concerning the Galway steamer services, it is anticipated that the annual subsidy now contemplated will be adequate to enable that steamer to carry on. If not, the steamer will revert to the Government. I understand that it is quite a good steamer, in which case, as the Deputy said, it would be up to the Government to see that it would be kept in service.

Is the steamer on loan or mortgaged to the company?

It is the company's property. The loan has been partially repaid and partially wiped out.

And if they fail to pay up, the Government gets the steamer?

With regard to the question of transport in Donegal, I do not think it is desirable that I should make any statement with regard to general policy on that matter until Deputies have received the report of the Donegal Transport Commission. It must be remembered that the Commission have other functions to perform than to inquire into the possibilities of a deep-sea port in that county. They covered the whole question of transport in that part of the country.

But the deep-sea port was the high light.

The inquiry dealt with the general question of transport there, and the report deals with all transport questions there.

So we may take it that the deep-sea port is dead?

Let the Deputy wait till he sees the report, and then he can see what is dead in Donegal, apart from the Cumann na nGaedheal Party. The Deputy contends that if this railway system, which is operated by the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway Company, is allowed to collapse, it will be a serious matter for the whole of the county. I admit that that is true, but it is because the Government realises that fact and because they feel that it must not be allowed to collapse, that this Estimate is being introduced and the loss on last year's working is being made good, partly by the Government and partly by the Government in Northern Ireland. The onus of working out a scheme of reorganisation which will put the transport system of Donegal on a profitable basis rests with the company. The company has, in fact, been working out such a scheme. When I introduced the estimate last year for making up the losses in 1933, I said that that was being given on the understanding that they would carry out immediately that scheme of reorganisation, and that they were not going to get any more subsidies of that kind.

The delay in carrying out the reorganisation was due, as I explained, to two causes. One cause was the difficulty the company had in raising the necessary capital to enable them to effect the reorganisation. I understand that their difficulty in that matter has now been overcome, or, at least, is in sight of being overcome. The other cause was that the Road Transport Act of 1933, which was to have been an effective instrument in the hands of the company, did not come into operation on the date on which it was expected. It was, by an amending Act passed in the early part of 1934, postponed until July of that year. Consequently, the reorganisation which we contemplated would take place in 1934 was postponed until 1935, and because of that it is necessary, if the company is to remain in existence at all, to assist it in making good losses incurred in the working of the line last year. That is why this Estimate is provided. The Deputy can also be assured on this point, that, in so far as it is possible for the Government to ensure it, the railway services will be maintained until adequate alternative services have been provided, and if the provision of these adequate alternative services necessitates extensive road reconstruction until that work has been carried out. In fact, no application has yet come from the company to shut down any part of its system. The Minister's ability to make an order authorising the company to discontinue services depends upon his being satisfied that adequate alternative services will be available.

I notice a change in the form of the undertaking. I recognise that the Minister for Industry and Commerce must be satisfied before he authorises the closing of part of the line, but the substance of my representation to him was that in arriving at that decision, if he is to be satisfied at all, he should consult his colleague, the Minister for Local Government, and satisfy himself that the system of roads obtaining there is adequate to bear the traffic they will be called upon to bear.

It is the Department of Local Government that will be asked to advise on that matter. In fact, they will be responsible for approving of roads for the various classes of traffic. Unless they approve of the roads in that part of the county for the traffic that will pass over them, in the event of any portion of the system being closed down, either the system cannot close or expenditure on these roads will be undertaken. With regard to the point raised by Deputy Moore I considered the advisability of having on the Board of each transport company assisted by the State, a Government director, and very definitely decided against it. I think the most invidious position a Government could be placed in would be one in which they would have responsibility without power. If we had a Government director on the board of the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway, on the Galway Bay Steamboat Company, or any other transport organisation, we would be, in fact, taking a share of the responsibility for the decisions of such boards, without having effective power to direct those decisions. Government participation in the management and direction of organisations of that kind must be 100 per cent. or not at all. Therefore, I think it is the better policy to stand aloof from the boards of these companies, and to influence them in the direction we want them to act by other means, which are fairly obvious, when it is clear that these companies require subsidies to carry on.

Question put and agreed to.
Top
Share