In Committee on Finance. - Vote 41—Local Government and Public Health—(Resumed). – Dáil Éireann (8th Dáil) – Thursday, 11 Apr 1935

In Committee on Finance. - Vote 41—Local Government and Public Health—(Resumed).

Mr. Norton

Speaking on this Estimate last night I referred to the fact that Deputy Mulcahy had put before the House lengthy statistics designed to show that the cost of erecting 16,000 houses under the Housing Act, 1932, had been £2,216,000, as compared, he said, with an expenditure of £1,609,000 in the erection of 24,000 houses under his administration. In reply to a question by me during the course of his speech Deputy Mulcahy stated that portion of the £2,216,000 was spent in allocating substantial subventions towards interest charges in the matter of slum clearance schemes, those schemes alone costing, as a capital estimate, £1,220,000. He indicated that £54,000 had been spent in subventions towards interest charges in respect of houses erected under the Housing of the Working Classes Act, and that £541,000 was the estimated capital cost of the subventions towards interest charges in respect of the erection of labourers' cottages. In all, he admitted that £1,816,000 had been spent by way of subventions towards the erection of houses under those three categories.

As I said last night, the whole philosophy of Deputy Mulcahy's speech last night was that house building was costing too much. I think he will hardly object to my interpreting his speech as an indication that so far as he was concerned he doubted very much whether we could afford to spend that sum of money on houses. I think his whole point of view was that we ought to stop and take stock to see whether we could continue to spend such sums of money on house building. There may, perhaps, be good reasons from the Deputy's point of view why there should be that stocktaking. My curiosity in the matter is sharpened by the speech made by Deputy Minch, who came into the House last night and threw Deputy Mulcahy's cautious policy to the winds, advocating the mobilisation of every conceivable kind of publicity, including the films, to push forward a mass scheme for house building. Apparently Deputy Minch was not much impressed by Deputy Mulcahy's point of view that we could not afford to spend so much money on houses. Deputy Minch wanted to have a whole-hog house-building policy. Here I am tempted to ask whether Deputy Minch's policy or Deputy Mulcahy's policy really represents the official policy of the United Ireland Party—whether their policy is that adumbrated by Deputy Mulcahy, who casts doubts on our capacity to continue spending money on house building, or whether their policy is the policy indicated by Deputy Minch, who wants mass scale schemes of house building, and the utilisation of the films in order to ensure that there would be sufficient publicity for schemes of that kind?

Apart from that question, I should like to ascertain from Deputy Mulcahy what precise aspect of this expenditure it is that he objects to. It is perfectly true, of course, that we can save money on house building if we do not give such substantial subventions towards slum clearances, but does Deputy Mulcahy want slum clearance schemes impeded? Does he want the slum clearance problem to continue? Does he want to slow up the housing progress which is being made by stopping the present substantial subventions in respect of slum clearance schemes? Does he want the rent of houses erected as part of the slum clearance schemes to be increased by 100 per cent., because, as the Deputy knows, the fact of withdrawing the subventions will not only impede the slum clearance schemes but will have the effect of purely economic rents being charged for such houses. If Deputy Mulcahy wants to be economical in respect of expenditure on house building he can, of course, advocate the abolition of subventions in respect of slum clearance schemes. If that is done, of course, we know that the slum clearance problem will get back to the same position in which it was under the Deputy's administration. We know also that economic rents will be charged for such houses, and that the tenants of such houses will be required to pay rents 100 per cent. greater than are charged to-day. If there is more money being spent on houses to-day than there was during the Deputy's administration it is due to the fact that the State is now treating slum clearance as a problem of urgency, and is doing more to-day to rid the country of those dens of disease than was ever done during the Deputy's administration. We could, of course, save money on house building if we were prepared to say "The slums must remain with us." We could, of course, save money on slum clearance schemes if we were prepared to say that rents twice the existing rents must be charged, but is Deputy Mulcahy prepared to advocate that policy? It seems to me that the Deputy must realise on reconsideration that unless we are prepared to continue the policy of substantial subventions in regard to slum clearance schemes there is no possibility of our being able to rid the nation of those dens of pestilence, and no possibility of our being able to house people at rents bearing some proportion to their capacity to pay.

The Deputy, of course, made a point of the fact that £541,000 was spent in subventions towards interest charges in respect of the erection of labourers' cottages. The Deputy might have said that during the period of his administration they did not spend £541,000 in the erection of labourers' cottages, though perhaps it would be quite unnecessary to point that out, because the plain fact of the matter is that not a single labourer's cottage was erected during the 10 years from 1922 to 1932. If £541,000 is spent to-day in the provision of labourers' cottages it is because of the fact that the State to-day is providing for the erection of labourers' cottages, though during the Deputy's administration apparently no consideration was given to the question. I think the expenditure of every halfpenny spent in the erection of labourers cottages is fully justified. If the Deputy had been able to say in his speech last night that his administration spent £1,541,000 in subventions towards interest charges for the erection of labourers' cottages I think he would have been able to show that his Party, whilst in office, had been able to make a substantial contribution to the provision of labourers' cottages throughout the country. I do not think that Deputy Mulcahy will object to my interpreting his speech as being calculated to throw doubts on the capacity of the nation to continue to finance house building to the present extent. I think the nation's health position and its housing condition are such as to make it absolutely imperative for the State to continue spending large sums of money on house building activities. There is no greater form of waste and no greater form of extravagance in health than to allow the slums to continue, and to allow our people to go on residing in rain-soaked mud cabins throughout the country.

I would advise the Minister not to take any notice of the excessive caution advocated by Deputy Mulcahy last night, but to continue the comprehensive house building policy which is a feature of the work of his Department. Right throughout the country there is considerable admiration for the house-building activities which have been inaugurated. If there is any feeling in respect of house building it is a demand for more and still more houses to be erected, and that house-building should be carried through much more speedily than is the position to-day. While on the speeding up of house-building, I would invite the Minister's attention to the reply given in this House recently showing the number of labourers cottages erected in the various counties. On examination of that return the Minister will notice that a number of boards of health have not taken advantage of the Housing Acts in the manner one would expect from them. Many of the boards of health have adopted the go-slow policy in respect of house building and, in particular, in respect of the building of labourers' cottages. Fifty-nine cottages have been erected by the Carlow Board of Health. That figure compares very unfavourably with other counties throughout the country. If Deputy Minch were here I would advise him to ask the majority party in the Carlow Board of Health, who are of the same political complexion as himself, to put into operation some of the advice he gave last night.

Mr. O'Leary

They are waiting until the price of calves goes up.

Mr. Norton

Is that the policy then of the United Ireland Party? Does Deputy Mulcahy agree with that policy or is that the new policy of the Party? Are we to wait for houses to be built until the price of calves goes up?

General Mulcahy

More houses could be built if they did.

Mr. O'Leary

You could build more houses when the people were getting £3 15s. for calves than when they are only getting 2/6.

Mr. Norton

Is that the policy now of the United Ireland Party—wait until the price of calves goes up?

General Mulcahy

I think it would be very advisable if before any more houses were built we got a statement on the subject of housing from the Minister for Local Government and Public Health who has a very much inflated housing staff. He has a Housing Board and we are told nothing good, bad or indifferent about the general outline of his policy. Deputy Norton gets one set of figures; I get another set of figures and the Irish Times gets still another set and none of them is reconcilable.

Mr. Norton

That is a very ineffective smoke screen attempted to be thrown over Deputy O'Leary's interruption. I want to know if the policy of the Opposition is that no more houses are to be built until the price of calves goes up? Is Deputy O'Leary the new authority in the United Ireland Party organisation or is Deputy Mulcahy still the authority?

Mr. O'Leary

I was responsible for building more houses than Deputy Norton.

Mr. Norton

But is that the policy of the United Ireland Party organisation now?

General Mulcahy

The Deputy's question has answered itself.

Mr. Norton

Deputy O'Leary is a new advocate of the new housing scheme.

Mr. O'Leary

I was an advocate of housing before Deputy Norton was ever heard of and he can get all the information he wishes on that if he wants it.

Mr. Norton

I will have to get a translation of some of these interruptions.

An Ceann Comhairle

The matter before the Committee is the Estimate for the Department of Local Government and Public Health. A review of the administration of that Department is in order but attempts to elicit the housing policy of any Party in this House other than the Government are not. The Deputy, I am afraid, provoked the interruptions to which he objects.

Mr. O'Leary

If he asks for any more of them he will get lán a mhála of it.

Mr. Norton

I will say that it would be quite impossible for me to elicit the housing policy of the Party opposite in view of the various views put forward by the different Deputies. We have one view by Deputy Minch, another by Deputy O'Leary and still another by Deputy Mulcahy. It is impossible to elicit their housing policy.

General Mulcahy

Not more impossible than it is for us to get a satisfactory answer as to the price of calves from the Deputy.

Mr. Norton

I do not see the point in that.

General Mulcahy

There is no point in it at all.

Mr. Norton

I wish to direct the Minister's attention again to the go-slow policy of the Carlow Board of Health, and I want to ask him to investigate the apparent unwillingness of that board to carry through labourers' cottage schemes in the county. At the same time I invite Deputy Minch to ask the majority members of the Carlow Board of Health who are of the same political complexion as he is to put into operation the policy advocated last night here by the Deputy. The Deputy is an advocate of a whole-hog housing policy, but his political friends decline to put into operation the housing policy which he is advocating.

I think the Minister's Department is to be congratulated on its house-building activity. It is an enormous improvement on anything we had known before, and a substantial improvement on the housing policy of the previous Administration. If we continue house-building at the present rate the number of houses erected will show an enormous increase on the small number erected in the years 1922 to 1932. In any case, the period from 1932 onwards will be marked in the house-building records in this country as a period when the erection of labourers' cottages was recommenced. The previous Administration had declined to build any labourers' cottages.

Mr. O'Leary

They had to build up the broken bridges and to make roads first.

Mr. Norton

Will not the Deputy make a speech himself, and then we will know his views?

Mr. O'Leary

That interruption is very effective anyway. It is something to make the Deputy think.

Mr. Norton

While on the question of housing, I want to refer to the charge made by Deputy Minch against me last night—that I advocated recently in Athy a no-rent policy. I did not advocate a no-rent policy in respect of people who could pay rent. What I advocated was that the local authorities should be asked to try and devise a rent policy which would enable people who are unable to pay high rents to be put into houses at specially low rents. At the present moment unemployed people are anxious to secure houses. Houses are let at certain rents. The existing housing conditions are such as to make it imperative from a Christian, social and health point of view that the people should be accommodated with decent houses. When offered these houses the people are willing to take them because of the very wretched conditions in which they are housed. When they get into the houses they find it very difficult to pay their rents. What I advocated was that the local authorities should try to provide houses to be let to such people at specially low rents.

In other words, that people should be asked to pay rents according to their capacity. They should not be asked to pay rents which are outside their capacity to pay. That is the policy that has been adopted in other countries, and there is no reason why it should not be adopted here. In the course of a Supplementary Estimate dealing with the Department of Local Government and Public Health I asked the Minister to use all his influence to try and induce as many local authorities as possible to adopt the principle of the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act. These authorities can now borrow money and finance the Act out of the funds so borrowed. If they do that there is no burden on the rates and there is adequate security for the money advanced. There are many local authorities which have not adopted the provisions of that Act. Other authorities who have adopted it have fixed a low maximum for the sums to be advanced. In the case of one local authority the maximum sum that will be advanced is £50, and in order to secure that the borrower must incur legal expenses to the extent of £7. I would like if the Minister would cause his Department to examine the administration of the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act with a view to impressing upon the local authorities the desirability of adopting this Act as part of the house-building campaign. The advantages to be derived from adopting its provisions and making advances available are of very considerable benefit to large numbers of the people.

There is no loss to the rates. There is no question of their borrowing powers being seriously interfered with, and I feel that the adoption of that Act and the generous administration of the Act would bring into the solution of the house-building problem a new current of activity which would help to erect houses, and every new house erected, no matter what its dimensions may be, helps, to some extent, to alleviate the house-building problem.

I suggest to the Minister that the members of the Housing Board might be utilised to interview local authorities and to explain to them the provisions of the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act; to explain to them the manner in which the Act is financed, and to show local authorities, who only imperfectly understand the Act and many of whom have no notion as to the manner in which it is financed, that it can be adopted and administered in such a way as not only to assist in house-building, but at the same time to increase the rating valuation of the areas of jurisdiction of the local authorities, and to help to provide decent houses for the people. On that aspect of the activities of the Housing Board, I observe from the Estimate that provision is made for the payment of salaries to members of the board in this year's Estimates. I understand that a member has vacated office, and I should like to know from the Minister whether it is proposed to fill the vacancy on the Housing Board during the coming year.

In the course of his speech yesterday, Deputy Mulcahy referred to the general rating position throughout the country, and Deputy McGovern made reference last night to the fact that the farmers were finding it difficult to pay rates and that the difficulty was being accentuated by the fact that large slices of the Agricultural Grant were being withheld consequent upon the default in the payment of the annuities. He went on to say that as a result of their withholding it was necessary to strike a rate to realise the sum which had been withheld from the Agricultural Grant. Is it any wonder that farmers—thrifty farmers—should be finding it difficult to pay rates in view of the curious kind of advice they are getting these days? At a recent meeting of the Kildare County Council reference was made to the fact that £35,000 of the £45,000 which was due under the Agricultural Grant had been withheld. One of the members of the Party opposite deplored the fact that this meant putting on the thrifty farmer, who is able to pay his annuities, a new burden in respect of the people who had not paid their land annuities. That point of view seems incontestable. But surely the Party opposite, or some members of the Party opposite, have some responsibility for putting on the farmer who has paid his rates and annuities the responsibility for paying for the defaulting farmer, because the Party opposite, or members of the Party opposite, have engaged in a campaign of advising all and sundry not to pay their annuities.

Mr. MacDermot

That is not true.

An Ceann Comhairle

The question of the payment or non-payment of annuities has been discussed on two recent motions in the Dáil. The debate may not be reopened now.

Mr. MacDermot

In any case, the statement is absolutely false.

Mr. O'Leary

And Deputy Norton knows that.

Mr. Norton

Am I not entitled, Sir, to refer to the general rating position in the country on an Estimate for Local Government and Public Health?

An Ceann Comhairle

Certainly, but not to the actions of individual Deputies.

Mr. Norton

But, Sir, I was challenged on this matter last night by Deputy Minch, and I submit, with all respect, that I am reasonably entitled to be given an opportunity of dealing with the charge of irresponsibility which Deputy Minch directed against me? Surely, I am also entitled to deal with what Deputy McGovern said in respect of the rating position and the Agricultural Grant. I do not propose to take up much time on it. Deputy MacDermot says that it is not true to suggest that members of the Party opposite advocated the non-payment of annuities which is now causing a serious problem in the country.

Mr. MacDermot

I suggest, Sir, that if we once get started on this question of the policy of our Party with regard to the payment of annuities, there will be no end to it. It is not a question of leaving Deputy Norton unanswered, but if we once get into that subject it will carry us very far afield.

An Ceann Comhairle

The point has been raised by the Deputy in possession that he is answering arguments used in the House last night. Unfortunately, I was not in the House when one of the Deputies mentioned spoke, and I do not know to what extent he dealt with the matter in question.

Mr. MacDermot

Deputy Minch made an enthusiastic speech in favour of housing, and all that happened was that Deputy Norton made a few jibes at him on the subject and mutual suggestions of irresponsibility were contributed. That is all that happened.

Mr. Coburn

Yes, that is all that happened. Deputy Norton is making a mountain out of a molehill.

An Ceann Comhairle

I was in the House for most of Deputy Minch's speech.

Mr. MacDermot

There were interruptions by Deputy Norton during Deputy Minch's speech.

Mr. Norton

Deputy Minch continued to interrupt me.

Mr. MacDermot

The matter has been ruled out of order.

Mr. Norton

I think, Sir, that I am reasonably entitled to deal with the remarks made by Deputy McGovern. Deputy MacDermot, at all events, has contended that his Party have not given the people such advice as to cause the people the serious rating problem that exists in the country. I wonder, however, would he read the Leinster Leader of the 26th August, 1933, in which Deputy Minch——

An Ceann Comhairle

As Deputy Minch certainly did not deal with the matter, the reference to the newspaper and the date should suffice.

Mr. Norton

Do I take it, Sir, that it is not possible for me, on this Estimate, to deal with the general rating position throughout the country consequent upon the fact that it is difficult to collect rates due to a certain policy being advocated, and to answer the charge of irresponsibility?

An Ceann Comhairle

That allegation was made by way of casual interruption, and Deputies must have a sense of proportion. That a remark, made in passing, should originate a protracted debate would be preposterous.

Mr. Norton

Deputy McGovern, Sir, has raised the question of the difficulty of the farmer in paying his rates in view of the fact that the Agricultural Grant has been withheld. Am I not entitled to explain to him the causes which are making it difficult for the farmer to pay his rates?

An Ceann Comhairle

The question of the non-payment of annuities or rates, or the question whether advice not to pay them was given is not relevant.

Mr. Norton

I accept your ruling, Sir. In any case, I may have another opportunity of convincing Deputy MacDermot, quite apart from the fact that some of his own supporters are in jail every day for advocating a policy which is causing a serious problem in the general rating position of the country.

In conclusion, Sir, I want to say that I think the Minister can feel satisfied that his Department have put on foot a house-building campaign such as this country has never previously known. I think that his Department deserve every congratulation in that respect. The house-building programme to-day is incomparably better than anything this country has previously known and bids fair to supply the housing wants of our people in measurable time, whereas the policy of the previous Administration was such that we were not even building houses to replace the houses which had gone into disrepair and into disuse. My advice to the Minister would be to continue pressing on house-building activity and to speed up the building of houses in every possible way, because there is no greater form of social waste than to allow people to continue to reside in slums and in rain-soaked cabins when we have in this country, not merely the skilled labour necessary for the building of houses, but the material for the building of houses, and a financial credit which is amongst the highest in Europe. It would be nothing short of criminal waste, merely an attempt to repeat the futility of the previous Administration, if the Minister did not continue to avail of these factors and to harness them into a single whole in providing for the wants of our people in respect of housing. I think the Minister himself is personally favourable to a radical house-building policy, a policy which would rid us of slums and mud cabins. Although the Minister may be confronted with defeatist speeches by people who are more concerned with proving his policy ineffective than they are with housing the people, I advise him to take no notice of dismal Jimmies of that kind, but to continue with a vigorous housing policy, because every person with any Christian feeling thoroughly endorses the present housing policy of the Minister.

Mr. Nally

The first matter that I have to refer to is the question of housing. There are a considerable number of complaints about the payment of the grants in respect of housing. I have received several complaints from people in Mayo that they have been trying to get the first instalment of these grants for the past 12 months but they have not yet succeeded in getting them. The next matter I want to call attention to is the allocation of road grants. I think that maritime counties, such as Mayo, Galway and others on the coast, should get a larger proportion of the road grants than is given to inland counties, as, of course, it is the seaboard that attracts most of the tourists. The population is very sparse in these districts and I think the Minister should look into this matter and see that a larger proportion of the road grants is given to the maritime counties.

As to labourers' cottages, I wish to draw the Minister's attention to the fact that no cottages whatever have been built in the Claremorris and Ballinrobe rural districts. For the last three years inspectors have been going around there and they are supposed to be building 100 or 150 cottages, but not one has been started yet. I might mention that the Ballinrobe and Claremorris rural districts pay about two-thirds of the entire rates in County Mayo. Deputy Norton told us that the legal costs in connection with loans for houses were about £7. In County Mayo the costs have not been more than £3 in respect of loans of £50 or £60 to help people to build houses.

Mr. Norton

They were £7 in the area I referred to.

Mr. Nally

I understood that Deputy Norton was speaking for the whole of the country.

Mr. Norton

No.

Mr. Nally

About three years ago we were given to understand that they were going to build a hospital in Claremorris. I might mention that Claremorris did not enter voluntarily into any hospital amalgamation scheme. The reason that the former hospital in Claremorris was discontinued was that the British military went in there and cleared out all the patients and sent them to Castlebar and Castlerea. As I say, we were promised three years ago that a new hospital would be built in Claremorris and £9,000 was allocated for that work. The hospital, however, has not been gone on with. The local authority purchased the site for the hospital and paid the money for that site. Having gone that distance, they got a notification from the Local Government Department that the hospital was not going to be built, so that the work was never started. I should like to know who is behind that.

I am sure the Minister knows Claremorris very well as he has been down there on several occasions. He knows that Claremorris is one of the largest junctions in the West. I think it is most unfair not to proceed with the building of the hospital there. I hope that the Minister in the very near future will look into the matters to which I have called attention. A former Deputy—Mr. O'Hara—once said that the Minister for Local Government was the only decent Minister on the Fianna Fáil Benches. I hope, therefore, that the Minister will do his duty, and that Mr. O'Hara's statement will be justified.

Mr. Coburn

I quite realise the great work that the Minister for Local Government has done and will do in the future in regard to housing. It is a pity that the leader of the Labour Party should take advantage of this debate to indulge in a piece of cheap banter and not face up to the difficulties and realities of the situation. The leader of the Labour Party has spoken about housing and about rents. As one who has a little knowledge of house-building, and who is just as anxious as Deputy Norton is for the welfare of the working classes, I should like to remind him that many speeches delivered by Labour leaders all over the country have done much to make it difficult for the Minister for Local Government to meet the needs of the people by way of the provision of good houses. We have heard Deputy Norton to-day speak about low rents. It is about time that there was a little honest speaking on this, and that Deputy Norton and the other members of the Labour Party would speak honestly and straightforwardly when discussing the question of rents. The Labour Party want high wages and at the same time low rents.

There seems to be growing up in this country a feeling that rents should not be paid at all. We have the peculiar position that, while high prices are paid for everything else, no increase of rent is supposed to be paid. I am not an advocate of high rents and never was. I have devoted many years of my life to the advocacy of good housing and low rents, but I am not an advocate of the dishonest policy of asking people who, perhaps, are in a worse position than the people who have to pay additional rents to pay additional rates. That is an aspect of the situation that the Labour Party have not recognised, or do not seem to recognise in connection with the provision of cheap housing accommodation for the people. Deputy Norton and members of the Labour Party can placard these words all over the country. As far as I am concerned, I am willing to debate the question of housing and rents with Deputy Norton or any member of the Labour Party, not only in the Dáil but on any public platform. I recognise the fact that this country is not a vast empire, that it does not contain millionaires, and that, for that reason, everyone must be prepared to make sacrifices and to do what they possibly can to help the Minister to overcome the stupendous work—and it is stupendous work—of providing decent housing accommodation at economic rents. The Labour Party must do its share as well as everyone else.

As the representative of a county in which there is 100 per cent. majority against the present Government, I am glad to say that in no other county has there been such co-operation between the Department and local bodies. The public bodies there have been ready and willing to co-operate with the present Minister as long as they are convinced that the work he is doing is for the public good. In support of that claim the Minister pointed out in his opening address that Louth was one of the counties that had carried out large housing schemes, in addition to sewerage and water schemes, in order to improve the health of the people.

In dealing with this Estimate there are a few points I should like to place before the Minister. The sites question is at present causing a little difficulty in Dundalk. In carrying out the programme in regard to slum clearance areas it has occurred to many members of Dundalk Urban Council that the Government might forego many of the conditions, in so far as they affect the outline of house building. I refer to areas in the heart of the town in which, if we were to comply with the conditions governing house building generally, it would be impossible to build any houses. As the Minister knows, one of the things incidental to house building is the necessity of providing forecourts. There are many areas in Dundalk in which houses have been condemned, but the depth of existing houses is such that it would not allow forecourts to be built to add to the amenities of house-building schemes. There would not be sufficient depth to provide forecourts, yards and little gardens. While I appreciate the desire of the Department and its officials to make the houses as attractive as possible yet, in cases such as I allude to, they might forego some of the conditions and thus save a great deal of the delay that occurs in the carrying out of schemes by urban councils. I will give an example of one particular scheme in order to bring home to the Minister the difficulties under which local bodies suffer. In the North Main Street there is an existing row of houses along the footpath. These houses were provided by private enterprise. At the end of a certain number of houses is a piece of ground on which we are building eight houses. The Minister will understand that if forecourts were put to the houses they would destroy the symmetrical appearance of the whole street. There was no necessity to provide them in such a case; yet there was a delay of almost two months before sanction was received to proceed with the scheme. In the same place there are slum areas. If the council was compelled to procure sites on virgin soil, in the course of a few years there would be large areas in the centre of the town derelict. That is a thing to be guarded against, and I impress upon the Minister and upon the officials the desirability of viewing the sites when, I am sure, they will agree that in many cases it would be better to allow councils to proceed in their own way.

As regards house-building in general, I think I am safe in saying that, as far as County Louth is concerned, the way the work has been done compares very favourably with houses constructed in any other county. I was rather perturbed recently to read in the newspapers that in a certain county the defects in houses that had been built were so numerous and were of so grave a character that they were almost beyond being made perfect. As one who knows a little about house-building, I think that these defects must have been very great or such a report would not have appeared in the newspapers. The most significant part about it was that it happened in a county which has a very large majority of Fianna Fáil supporters. It goes to prove that, after all, they are not the great moralists that they pretend to be, if reports are true in regard to the construction of certain building schemes in that county. I should like the Minister to take serious notice of that, and for this reason, that it is hardly fair to honest builders who put in an economic tender and are prepared to carry out the work in accordance with the plans and specifications submitted by the engineers, as the case may be, to the boards of health, county councils or urban councils.

In regard to the question of labourers' cottages, of course, Deputy Norton again referred to the fact that none were built by the former Government. In answer to Deputy Norton, I say that some members of the Labour Party at that particular period were engaged in a campaign of telling the labourers down the country not to pay their rents I would also remind members of the Labour Party that, at that particular time, in justice to the past Administration, money was not as cheap as it is to-day and the costs of building were much higher than they are to-day.

Mr. T.J. Murphy

Might I have your permission, Sir, to ask Deputy Coburn who are the members of the Labour Party who gave that advice down the country?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has, in fact, asked the question.

Mr. Coburn

I was a member of this House, and I have a distinct recollection of the then Minister for Local Government asking no less a personage than Deputy Hogan, the Leas-Cheann Comhairle, as to his attitude in regard to the payment of cottage rents in County Clare.

Mr. T.J. Murphy

I say that the statement is entirely untrue.

Mr. Coburn

It is only part and parcel of the secret and dishonest campaign pursued by the members of the Labour Party.

Mr. Norton

That is untrue, and it is just typical of Deputy Coburn.

Mr. Coburn

It is merely part of the dishonest campaign——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is referring to events of some years ago. The Vote relates to the current year.

Mr. T.J. Murphy

I want to say, on behalf of my colleagues, that the statement is entirely untrue. There are certain members of the Labour Party I know of who incurred a good deal of odium because they strongly advocated the payment of rents.

Mr. Coburn

Members of the Labour Party, in my opinion, never had the moral courage to condemn anything. They can take that from me any way they like.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy might tell us something about the Estimate.

Mr. Coburn

With regard to the question of labourers' cottages, there, again, the Government has done much, backed up by the co-operation of all right-minded people in the country. I appreciate the work done and I congratulate the Minister upon it. There is one suggestion I should like to make to the Minister in connection with labourers' cottages. Around the suburbs of large towns, such as Dundalk, there are numbers of workers whose places of abode are in the rural parts, but who work in the town. They are in the unenviable position that when they go to the board of health for a new house or cottage, they are told that they do not come within the definition of agricultural labourer, as determined by the Labourers Acts 1881 to 1919. On the other hand, if they go to the urban council, they are told that they cannot get a house in the urban area because they are living in the rural area. What I would suggest to the Minister is that if it were possible to extend those Acts in some way as to make that class of applicant eligible for a cottage, it would do much to relieve congestion, so far as housing accommodation is concerned, in the rural parts of Louth and especially around Dundalk. There are large numbers of labourers, good, honest types of workers, who are prepared to pay an economic rent for houses, if they were built, but, unfortunately, the board of health has not the power to build houses for these people. I should like the Minister to examine the situation and, by legislation or by some other means, enable the board of health to build cottages for that class of people. The people I refer to are those who work in the Great Northern Railway Works in Dundalk, the majority of whom live in rural parts around the town.

Again, there is the question of carrying out the provisions of the Vaccination Acts. I was rather amused at Deputy O'Dowd stating, in the course of his remarks in regard to housing, that since most of the public bodies have Fianna Fáil majorities, a good deal would be done in the way of house building. His subsequent statement in regard to the carrying out of the vaccination laws was that they were almost a dead letter and I wonder how he reconciles that statement with his previous statement. It is the duty of public bodies at present to put these laws into effect and if, as Deputy O'Dowd suggests, there is a majority of Fianna Fáil supporters on the public bodies, it is surely their duty to put the law as it stands into effect in regard to the Vaccination Acts.

I should be glad if the Minister could see his way to do something in connection with by-roads throughout the country. Many labourers' cottages have been built along these roads and, owing to the peculiarities of the law, these roads cannot be maintained at present by the county councils. I think the Minister might give a little attention to that matter and see if something could be done whereby these roads would be put into a proper state of repair and thus enable the people using them, people who pay rates, to have at least a dry foot when going to and from their houses. That is all I have to say in connection with this Estimate except to mention that so far as I know, the Minister can rest assured that he will have the co-operation and support of the public bodies in County Louth in his work in respect of housing, sewerage schemes, waterworks schemes and any other scheme that makes for the comfort and good health of the people of the country.

Mr. T.J. Murphy

I think that all of us who have listened to the speech of the Deputy who has just sat down are entitled to some sympathy. It is a speech on practically the same lines as the Deputy has delivered each year on this Estimate since I came into this House. The only difference is that on this occasion the speech reveals a more complete ignorance of all the Acts with which local government is concerned and is considerably more reckless in the statements the Deputy has made in his wanderings, and I use the word advisedly, in search of some information regarding local government generally.

The statement that members of the Labour Party are advocating high wages and low rents is, of course, a repetition of the statement which Deputy Coburn considers it his duty to make on any occasion on which he has an opportunity of speaking in this House. The position of the Labour Party in that matter is quite clear. Our view always has been that rents, generally, are too high, considering the standard of wages payable, and our claim always has been that rents generally should bear some relation to the general standard of wages in the country. I ask Deputy Coburn whether he contends that that is an unreasonable claim? If he does contend that is an unreasonable claim, what view has he on this whole question? Generalities of the kind we have heard and tirades of the kind that are an annual feature of his contributions in this House are becoming tiresome. They are wearying and the champion of facing up to realities, as Deputy Coburn has long ago constituted himself, is becoming very tiresome. The hackneyed platitudes he strings out here, and asks us to believe are a serious contribution to local government, would be a joke in any other Assembly than this Assembly which tolerates, for reasons it is hard to understand, this annual infliction by Deputy Coburn on it. The Labour Party, I say again, have never advocated non-payment of rents. That is a distinction which can be claimed by another Party and we leave them the honour of their advocacy of non-payment. We have no desire to enter into that domain.

In this House, last night, Deputy Dillon made a minor complaint of delay by the Local Government Department in dealing with correspondence. As a member of the Labour Party, I would like to say that that complaint is not mine and I am very glad to be able to say that my own relations, and I think the relations of every member of this Party and of members of the House generally, with the Department of Local Government, have been very happy. We have found plenty of consideration in every branch of the Local Government Department which we have approached for help or information and I may say that I do feel that entirely the most pleasant portion of my own work as a member of the House over a number of years, has been in the course of my relations with the Local Government Department. I think it is right that that should be said and I say it in the desire to be fair rather than to pay fulsome tributes to the Department's officials.

Might I ask the Minister for Local Government to consider the whole question of the county homes all over the country? I am quite sure that I know the Minister's viewpoint in regard to what ought to be the standard of the county homes, but I wonder if the Minister knows how unpleasant the whole position regarding county homes is becoming in certain parts of the country. The buildings are cheerless in the extreme. A great many of them are altogether unsuited to housing large numbers of people and the position is that at present one could hardly imagine surroundings more dismal or more entirely abandoned in some cases, than the surroundings of a great many of the county homes. Would the Minister consider the possibility of putting into effect some, at least, of the recommendations of the Poor Law Commission which have not been given effect? Apart altogether from the fact that the buildings referred to are unsuited to the present needs and that they are altogether overcrowded, they contain so many different classes of people that some attempt ought to be made to put them into places more suitable for them. The able-bodied person who is destitute, the unmarried mother, the harmless imbecile, little children whose parents have died and the children of unmarried mothers are all herded together in the county homes at present without any real attempt to examine the special problems that practically all the classes referred to represent. I hope the Minister will at least, endeavour, so far as he possibly can and I think it is unnecessary to press him very much on this matter because I feel his sympathies are altogether in favour of the development I referred to, to extend the policy of boarding-out poor people in the county homes or encouraging the boards of health to board them out with certain religious orders that have undertaken that work. We have a special problem in West Cork at present where our county home is altogether overcrowded. We did make a genuine attempt to provide an alternative but, unfortunately, we have not been successful up to the present, and I do hope that we may rely on the Minister's co-operation towards doing something definite for West Cork in that direction in a comparatively short time. What is true of West Cork is, I am sure, true also of a number of other places in the country.

I should like to direct the Minister's attention to a few other matters which arise on this Vote. I noticed a newspaper report of a recent meeting of the County Waterford Board of Assistance where the Commissioner for County Waterford moved a reduction of £5,000 in the Estimate for home assistance on the ground that it was necessary to make provision in respect of unpaid annuities. I suggest that the Minister ought to take steps to see that that position does not arise again and that he ought to ask the Department responsible for the collection of annuities to proceed with that work and to make sure that the burden is not put on the backs of the unfortunate people who have to depend on home assistance for an existence. I think it would be a calamity if that state of affairs continues, and I think it was very unfortunate that the direct representative of the Ministry in County Waterford should identify himself with a policy of that kind and go further still and say that he was not able to give a guarantee that it would not be necessary to reduce home assistance allowances during the coming 12 months.

With regard to the question of housing loans, I agree that a difficult position has arisen in a number of counties. We have, in County Cork, been unable so far to issue housing loans to the numerous people who have been buoyed up with the hope that loans would ultimately be made available in addition to the Supplementary Grants given for the erection of houses. We have been unable to proceed with that work because of the heavy costs likely to be involved. Legal opinion has fortified us in believing that heavy costs would be involved in the absence of amending legislation. I do not know if this is a practical solution or not, but I suggest that if possible we ought to revert to the position we were in some years ago where, as a result of a certain section in a Housing Act we were able to give loans independently of the Small Dwellings Act. I think we would have no difficulty in raising money for that purpose. We were able in the past to raise loans on a simple deed involving no more expense than a 2/6 stamp. I put it to the Minister that he might enquire into the possibility of some simple amendment of the Housing Act that would permit us to revert to that comparatively happy position I referred to.

I want to express the hope that the Minister has not definitely made up his mind that local government needs to be reformed in the way that a great many would-be reformers in this country would suggest. There are a certain number of people in this country who believe that in local government, at least, super-men are necessary and that super-men exist. I do not believe there are any super-men in this country or in any other country, and I do not believe that they can be found or are necessary for the purpose of maintaining local government. During recent years, the cry that resulted in the appointment of super-men in connection with local government arose from a certain quarter.

Certain advocates of big business and representatives of commerce cried out for the appointment of certain persons to replace local representatives who were alleged to be worthless and in some cases not only inefficient but corrupt. A rather illuminating sidelight on the capacity of certain big business people to manage business was recently provided in the manner in which the affairs of the Industrial Trust Corporation were conducted. I would ask the Minister to bear in mind that the call for commissioners in the past emanated from much the same people who have made such a good job of the affairs of the Industrial Trust Corporation. I would ask him to be very careful before trusting any advice he gets from them in the near future in regard to the manner in which local government should be managed. I think the Minister will be on very sound ground if he puts his faith in the people, and makes sure that with some minor adjustment here and there the right of the people to manage their own affairs in their own way is maintained. I suggest that he ought to consider that matter very carefully in view of rumours which are abroad to the effect that the whole field of local government in this country is being explored at the present time. I have nothing further to say by way of complaint or criticism. I have put those points to the Minister for his consideration. I want to express on my own behalf and on behalf of some of my colleagues, whose views on the matter I know, and who are not here to express them, our pleasure at the results which have been achieved during the year in the matter of housing generally, and our appreciation of the manner in which we have always been treated and in which our representations have been received in the Department of Local Government.

General MacEoin

There are just one or two questions which I should like to put to the Minister. I raised yesterday the matter of the delay in the sanction for the Longford county hospital. I want to assure the Minister that there is a great need for this hospital; that there is a considerable amount of unemployment in the district, and that if he decided upon some course it would assist the people very much—both the workers and the community living in the county. It is a well-known fact that for years we have had no suitable hospital accommodation in the county, and that a good deal of suffering is being caused by the delay, through lack of proper equipment and everything else. I will not labour that point any further, but I should like to ask the Minister to try to speed up the payment of reconstruction grants, in the County Longford in particular. There are a good many small farmers and labourers who have started reconstruction work on their homes, but there is considerable delay in the inspection prior to and during the work of repairs which they are carrying out. Those people are poor and find it extremely difficult to complete the work if the payments are not made. I would ask the Minister to expedite the payments and the inspections as much as possible. Those were the two points about which I was anxious. I am not going to delay the debate by discussing the general question of local government. I might have said something about Deputy Norton's speech on the question of labourers' cottages, but as he is not here I shall leave it over until some other time.

Mr. Costello

There are one or two points on the housing aspect of this Estimate to which I wish to direct the attention of the Minister. I notice that in his opening statement he expressed the hope that the housing programme which the Government set themselves out to achieve in connection with slum clearance would be completed within the time they had laid down for them selves. We all hope that his opinion will be justified. I want to express here on this Estimate a doubt—or rather a conviction—that the machinery which is being employed for the purpose through the local authorities will not result in solving the problem of slum clearance within anything like the time in which an optimistic Government hopes to solve it. I want to speak about one portion of my constituency, Ringsend. I speak about it feelingly, because of the number of people who call upon me, and are unable to understand that it is no part of my function —however much I might like to do it— to get houses for them. I have to do the best I can for them, but with the machinery available at the moment it is a rather heart-breaking experience for a public representative to have to tell the people who come up with genuine stories of housing conditions, which are appalling to listen to, that he is unable to do anything for them, as it is the officials of the Dublin Corporation whose function it is to find houses for the people.

I am afraid that the programme of the Dublin Corporation in relation to housing and slum clearance, carried out as it has been in a very generous and whole-hearted fashion, will have to be slowed down as a result of the comparative failure of the last loan. What I am anxious to know is whether the Government is completely satisfied with the machinery under which housing is being carried out at the moment through local authorities, and whether a Ministry—even a Ministry of Housing—ought not to be set up to deal with the problem. There is a very large element of artificiality about the whole thing. The Department of Finance, and the Government, think they have done a wonderful thing if they succeed in getting a certain portion of the expenditure in connection with, say, housing put upon the rates rather than upon the Central Government. but rates and taxes are, in essence, one and the same thing. They come largely out of the same pocket, and although the local authorities say that the Government have been generous in giving them two-thirds of the grant, and that sort of thing, in reality it is one and the same pocket that pays it.

Taking the case of the Dublin Corporation, which has done, I suppose, more than any other local authority in the country to grapple with and solve the housing problem in this country, I feel that places like Ringsend and Ballsbridge, which are my own immediate concern, are being neglected, and will be more and more neglected in the future by reason of the necessity to deal perhaps with more urgent areas in the city. The district of Ringsend, in which I am particularly interested, is a peculiar district. The people are—I was going to say provincial—almost in a town of their own. They regard their area as a town and do not want to leave that area. There is a very big problem to be solved there. The building of houses under schemes such as have been carried out in Crumlin, Kimmage and all that area, does little, if anything, to solve the problem which exists in the Ballsbridge and Ringsend area. In that area there exists another problem to which I should like to draw the attention of the Minister. It is a problem which exists not only in that area but in a number of other places where new houses have been erected under schemes of housing carried out by the Dublin Corporation and their predecessors in the last ten or 12 years. That problem is the inequalities of the rents which are being charged to the tenants. There is a very large sense of grievance in certain parts of the Ringsend area at the rents which are being charged by the Dublin Corporation for the houses that have been erected under the various schemes carried out by that body and their predecessors. Whether by reason of the fact that loans had in previous years to be raised at a higher rate of interest than in subsequent years, or whether by reason of the cost of construction having risen or fallen from year to year, the fact is that the rents of houses in various parts of those housing areas show an extraordinary difference in amount. In fact, on one side of the street a tenant may be charged 15/- a week, and for precisely the same house on the opposite side of the street only 10/- a week may be charged. I am not taking these figures as actual figures but as illustrations of what has been brought to my own notice in connection with this problem. It is a problem which must be adequately solved. I know it is the primary duty of the Dublin Corporation to do it, but it is the firm conviction of the Corporation that they cannot do it so that something must be done if the inequalities in the rents payable are to end. The areas to which I refer are Cabra, Ringsend, and Fairview. In these areas the problem exists in an acute form. The only other point to which I wish to draw attention is the question of the allotment of houses. In the course of the answer which the Minister gave me last year, I gathered that it was the invariable practice of his Department to require the names of the applicants of the houses to be submitted to his Department for approval. I want to know if that practice is being still carried on, and if persons who are allotted new houses are allotted them strictly in accordance with their necessities, the number in family and the insanitary condition in which they are living, and whether they are allotted in strict compliance with the reports of the medical officers in the various areas. I know that numerous complaints are being made that people with one or two children are getting houses while persons with seven or eight children and who are badly housed are being passed over. It is desirable in the interests of all sections of the community that houses should be allotted in accordance with merit and that in no instance should political considerations, from whatever angle, be allowed to enter into the question of their allotment. I want to know from the Minister if he is taking steps to see that that principle is being strictly adhered to?

Mr. Wall

There are two matters on this Estimate to which I would like to refer. The first is the matter of roadmaking. I find it is the invariable practice to cover with tar the entire surface of the road from fence to fence. I agree that that makes an ideal road for motoring, but it makes a very dangerous road for horse traffic. I suggest that the Minister should see that a reasonable margin is left untarred on each side of the road and that that margin should be sufficiently wide to accommodate horse traffic. I think that by doing that he will not be encroaching unduly on the rights of motorists; and I feel it would have the effect of making the roads comparatively safe for horse traffic. That is a matter that should be considered immediately unless it is intended to put horse traffic off the roads completely. A number of serious accidents have occurred all over the country by reason of this tarring of the entire surface of the road. Something should be done to remedy that state of affairs.

The second point to which I wish to refer is in connection with the Agricultural Grant. My references apply altogether to the County Waterford. I understand that when this grant was first introduced, it was allocated on the basis of the estimate for a particular year. In the year selected, I understand that the Waterford County Council struck an abnormally low rate—a rate which was eventually found to be inadequate to meet their liabilities and it had to be exceeded, I believe, by something like £20,000. The grant was based on the estimate instead of on the expenditure for that particular year. The result was that a lower grant was made for that particular year and a lower grant has been made for every year since. If the facts are as I have stated, and I believe they are, I think it is the duty of the Minister to inquire into the matter and to try to make some effort to restore to the Waterford County Council and to the agricultural ratepayers in Waterford the losses they have sustained since the introduction of the grant.

Mr. McMenamin

There are two matters to which I wish to refer. Deputy Nally has already referred to one of them, and that is, the making of special provisions to improve the roads in the tourist counties in the Free State. The manner in which I feel that that can be done is by a system which, before any money is taken out of the Road Fund Grant, a certain proportion of it should be set aside each year and that that should be allocated in rotation to the tourist counties for the special improvement of their roads, say one or two counties each year. I am not particular as to which of these counties gets the grant the first year or the second year. But each county could be done in turn and in that way the tourist roads would be benefited and improved. I will probably be met with the reply that the eastern counties bear higher taxes than the western counties. That may be. But the eastern counties have a lower attraction for tourists and visitors than the western counties. I think it is but fair that something should be done to help the tourist counties and a special portion of this fund should be set aside and distributed in the manner I have indicated to one or two counties each year; that would improve the roads in these tourist counties. The second matter to which I want to refer is one which I have already brought before the Minister. I am afraid if you want to get a hearing you have to keep hammering at the Minister. The matter is not strictly appropriate to this Vote, but in another way it is strictly concerned with it. It is in connection with house building. I want the Minister to make representations to the Land Commission to speed up the sub-division of land. The sub-division department of the Land Commission is a very small thing and always has been. It has been the traditional policy of the Land Commission to refuse to sub-divide holdings, that is to say, they refused to sub-divide holdings lest the holdings would become uneconomic. As a result of that the house building campaign has been held up. In the main these new houses have been built on new sites. That involves a sub-division of the land. It is one of the things which causes me in my constituency a great amount of worry and work. I know that it is not very much good for me to call into the Land Commission to speed up the sub-division of lands. I know that I am received in a friendly way and all that. I have correspondence which deals very extensively with this question. In the last week I got a letter, in which the average delay in sub-dividing is stated to be 12 months. I am not prepared to go to that length; I would agree to eight months. Now I ask the Minister to make representations to the Minister for Lands and to ask that the staff in the sub-division branch should be increased. I think that staff is inadequate to deal with the demands made on it now. This would be only for a temporary purpose. I submit that the Minister should make these representations to the Land Commission to expedite the work in which the Minister for Local Government and Public Health is immediately involved. By doing that he will be doing a useful work. I know that the solicitors who are dealing with these matters find that their schemes are held up by the delay in the sub-division by the Land Commission. Their clients are calling on them from day to day in order to expedite the sub-division. They are disappointed and the building of the houses held up. In many of these cases there is as much as 12 months' delay in getting the land sub-divided.

There was a very extreme case that I saw reported in the papers, where the Urban Council of Athlone got a site on which to build houses. They were an exception, of course, because they had compulsory powers themselves and could take the land whether it was sub-divided or not. The sites were acquired, the houses built, and the tenants living in them, while the land was yet undivided, and the man from whom the land was taken had not received his money as a result of that. That is an extreme case, I admit, and I only quote it in order to emphasise this matter which, I must say, causes me considerable trouble. I do not mind the trouble myself, but I must say that when one calls day after day and week after week to the Land Commission only to be sent back again and again, it is very irritating and it is a matter that the Minister should attend to. It is holding up the work in which he is directly involved. It means that the grant is also held up, and ultimately the people get tired and disgusted and, perhaps, drop the whole thing. I would again appeal to the Minister to ask the Minister for Lands to speed up this matter and to increase the staff in the sub-division branch.

Mr. J. Flynn

I should like to say a few words in connection with the costs involved in obtaining grants for housing. I submit that a great deal of the costs could be avoided if legislation could be passed whereby the consent of the applicant were obtained to create a first charge in respect of the loan under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act in priority to any other charge that may be registered against the holding. There are cases where the costs are as high as £6 or £7 in obtaining a grant of £40. These costs are made up in this way. There is one guinea for the certificate in regard to the market value. There are two guineas for surveyor's costs and £2 10s. 0d. costs of title. I submit that, if some adjustment of that system were made by way of an amending regulation, a great deal of that cost could be eliminated and that the people concerned would benefit greatly by such adjustment. I know that the surveyors and the engineers concerned have done everything to meet the wishes of the people in regard to housing and that everything has been done by the Minister and his Department in order to facilitate and speed up the housing scheme, but there are items such as this which require immediate attention and I merely mentioned them in regard to this Estimate.

Minister for Local Government and Public Health (Mr. O Ceallaigh)

There has been a good deal of discussion and comment on this Estimate. That is quite natural. The Department of Local Government and Public Health is a big Department with very wide ramifications, and that the members of the Dáil should display a considerable amount of interest in its work, and criticise it here and it is, well shall I say, flattering to the Department to see that so much attention is paid to it and that people have so much to say about it. Probably, the section of greatest interest, at the moment at any rate, to the House and perhaps to the public in general, is the Housing Section of the Department of Local Government and Public Health. A good deal of the discussion that has taken place on this Estimate has been devoted to housing in its various aspects. I am satisfied that the Housing Section has done very creditable work in the last year and that, generally speaking, the local authorities have done their share and, with a few exceptions, have done it creditably and well during the last year. Some Deputies criticised the Ministry for the slackness of certain local authorities in the building of houses and particularly in the provision of labourers' cottages in some counties. All I can say is that every encouragement that I, as Minister, and the Department as a whole, through its officials of various kinds—those employed at headquarters and those whose duty it is to go into the country—could give has been given to the local authorities. Every encouragement that these officials can give and every help that is in their power to afford to the local authorities and to their officials to push ahead with the provision of such houses as are necessary, and with the speeding up of housing schemes, is given, and given gladly. Wherever we can encourage them to greater efforts, we are ready to do it.

I was asked as to the activities of the Housing Board. The Housing Board has not been much in the limelight. Their reports have been to me, as Minister, and I know that the board has been active in encouraging areas that were slack and local authorities that were not as enthusiastic as they might be. Members of the board have visited them and encouraged them, provided sites for them, and shown them where they could speed up matters and help themselves. Not alone to local authorities, but to individuals—private persons and public utility societies—the Housing Board and the individual members of it have given every help in encouraging them in the use of Irish manufacture and in encouraging manufacturers to speed up their supplies so that they might be able to meet the demands that have been made upon them. One of the first things that was tackled by the Housing Board was the deficiency in roofing materials, particularly in regard to slates. I think we are now in the position that any demands that are made on the owners of slate quarries for the provision of slates can be met and that is a big change. There are several quarries that have been opened as a result of the insistence of the Department of Local Government and Public Health that only Irish manufactured materials for roofing be used. There are several quarries in different parts of the country—in Donegal, Cork, Mayo, Wicklow. Some quarries that were idle for many years have been reopened. One of them, at any rate— in Donegal—is now employing close on 500 men where not a single individual was employed before the 1932 Act came into operation and before the work of the members of the Housing Board started. The same applies to other supplies. Roofing materials, in general, including tiles, have been encouraged and are available everywhere now; also iron goods, grates, rainwater downpipes—every other kind of housing material, so far as it can be made in this country, has been encouraged and the quantities used and the quantities ordered have increased enormously. Generally speaking, with regard to the contractors all over the country, not alone in Dublin but everywhere, I think I can say now that whatever demands are made on them for building materials, that can be produced in this country, are being met by the contractors, largely as a result of the quiet, unobtrusive, but nevertheless efficient work of the Department and of the Housing Board in investigating the demands that were likely to be made and the possibilities of having these demands met by the various suppliers of building materials for housing work.

Mr. Morrissey

Is the Minister quite satisfied that the demand for slates, whether by public authorities or private builders, can now be fully met without delay? If that is so, it would be worth while that the public should know it.

Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 11 Apr 1935

In Committee on Finance. - Vote 41—Local Government and Public Health—(Resumed).

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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 11 Apr 1935