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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 10 Jul 1935

Vol. 58 No. 2

Finance Bill, 1935—Allocation of Time.

I move:—

That in the case of the Finance Bill, 1935:—

1. The Report Stage of the Bill shall be the first Order of the day on Wednesday, July 10th, 1935, and the proceedings on that Stage if not previously concluded shall be brought to a conclusion at 7 p.m. on that day by putting from the Chair forthwith the Questions necessary to bring the proceedings to a conclusion and after the appointed time no Question shall be put from the Chair upon any amendment set down to the Bill save on an amendment set down by the Government, and the Question on such an amendment shall be in the form, That the amendment be made.

2. The Fifth Stage of the Bill shall be considered immediately on the conclusion of the Fourth Stage on Wednesday, July 10th, 1935, and the proceedings on that Stage if not previously concluded shall be brought to a conclusion at 9 p.m. on that day by putting from the Chair forthwith the Question necessary to bring the proceedings to a conclusion.

There are just two facts to be mentioned in connection with this Bill. One is that the Bill must be law by the week ending the 3rd August. Therefore, the last day upon which it could come back from the Seanad would be the 2nd August if there are any matters coming back from the Seanad to be dealt with. Therefore, in order to give the Seanad their full time for the discussion of the Bill, it is necessary to pass the Bill at once. The second point is that, on the various stages of the Finance Bill we have already taken 74 hours and 50 minutes, and if the House wishes, we can add five hours to that now, which figure disposes of the argument that ample opportunity has not been given for discussion.

We must oppose this motion, Sir. Even if the Parliamentary Secretary has not advanced very far, I am glad that he has advanced a little further than yesterday. Yesterday, misled, possibly, by the events of last week, he seemed to assume that the mere statement from any member of the Party opposite — Minister, Parliamentary Secretary, or otherwise—that a certain matter was urgent, should preclude all discussion and that that statement was sufficient to get the view accepted by the House. That the Parliamentary Secretary should be under such a delusion was natural enough after the way in which the majority Party in the House conducted the business towards the end of last week. Again, however, neither the Parliamentary Secretary nor any Minister has answered the question as to why the matter is now urgent. None of them has attempted to controvert the statement, that, if there is blame in this matter, the blame rests on the Government in not having their financial business up to time. Neither the Minister nor the Parliamentary Secretary, at any stage, has dealt with the question of what was the necessity for the postponement of the original date of the Budget. Here we have Parliamentary institutions made a mockery of, and the alleged excuse for that was the Spring Show! At all events, that was the official excuse for the postponement of the Budget, and the attendance of Ministers at the Spring Show has now brought about, as one of its consequences, if we take that explanation, this series of resolutions that we have before us—the lamentable proceedings of the week-end and the resolutions that we have before us to-day.

That was the first cause of the trouble in which the Government now finds itself. Then, we have had no explanation of the postponement of the Committee Stage of the Finance Bill. None at all! Those of us who were in this House and attended it regularly for the past couple of weeks know perfectly well that there was a lot of time devoted to business that could not be described as extremely urgent, and yet there was no objection there. Hour after hour was occupied in business that could not be described by any stretch of the imagination as urgent. It is only when it is necessary to curtail still further the rights of the ordinary Deputy in this House that, suddenly, the Government discovers urgency. Then we have this sudden respect for the Seanad, as if the Seanad never got a Finance Bill late. That respect for the Seanad is rather amusing coming from the quarter from which it comes. I know that it is a tradition in this country that we should respect the dead.

That is not quite the sentiment, perhaps, but, for the moment, it strikes me that the respect of the Government in this connection partakes more of the nature of the courtesy or politeness of the assassin, doing things gently and with gloves on when he is stabbing the victim. That is more the kind of politeness displayed by the Government towards the Seanad at the present moment. Is there anybody who could seriously entertain the Government's plea that it must urge forward these resolutions because of its respect for the Seanad?

Now, Sir, what are they doing? The Parliamentary Secretary has pointed out the number of hours that have been devoted already to this Budget. Well, as his colleague, the Minister for Agriculture, boasted, this is a unique Budget—a statement that was received with full approval from every side of the House. It was one of the few statements on this Budget that was received with unanimous approval—that it was a unique Budget. I wonder whether it is beginning to dawn on the majority Party in this House how unique the Budget is and how unique the country is beginning to see that the Budget is. Does anybody suggest that that unique Budget, taxing the very necessities of life and putting on innumerable taxes, none of which had been previously examined, did not require proper and full examination; or is it the view of the majority Party in this House that the function of the House is, if I might use the phrase used by the Minister for Finance in 1932 on the Emergency Duties Bill, to review and subsequently confirm such matters? I think the phrase be used was that certain drastic action of the Government on financial matters was subject to review and to subsequent confirmation. Apparently, now, the Government's idea of the functions of a Parliament is to give subsequent confirmation to the actions of the Government—not to examine them. A certain amount of time was spent on Friday and Saturday last examining an immense Schedule to this particular Bill. Quite an amount of light was thrown, not merely on the individual items of that Schedule, but on the whole policy of the Government in so far as it was illustrated and covered by that Schedule.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce suggested yesterday that there was repetition when I challenged him as to where there was any irrelevancy. He said there was repetition. If he will examine the debate, I do not think he will find that there was any undue repetition except on his own part. I think I heard more than once, more than twice—perhaps more than a dozen times—that 20 per cent. is enough of a tariff, and that therefore the Minister proposed giving 40 per cent.

Fifty per cent.

Yes, 50 per cent. sometimes.

Sometimes 100 per cent.

Yes, sometimes 50 per cent. and sometimes 100 per cent., but I think it was the 40 per cent. that was repeated most often. Again and again we heard, in reference to the various articles embraced in that Schedule, the boast of the Minister for Industry and Commerce of the sufficiency, of the efficacy of the 20 per cent. tax, but, without any explanation—and I will admit that he was given several opportunities of giving an explanation—he said that he was giving 40 per cent. It was not out of place to point out in that particular connection that, not merely was he unduly taxing the people, which, of course, might appeal to his colleague, but that, in addition, he was damaging the industries that he was pretending to protect. Was there anything obstructive in bringing these facts to light, in reference to the different items in that Schedule? It was necessary to do so. I think the revelation of the Government attitude on these things shocked even such an out-and-out protectionist as Deputy Belton: namely, that you were doing good to industry, when 20 per cent. tariff was found to be extremely efficient, by giving 40 per cent. I think that to anybody interested in the future of finance in this country, or of protection in this country, the debates and the attitude of the Government as displayed in those debates on Friday and Saturday should prove exceedingly interesting. After all, it is those matters that we are supposed to discuss in the Budget, and no amount of mathematical calculation on the part of the Parliamentary Secretary— simple addition is generally what the Government is quite good at; their higher mathematics do not go beyond that—can relieve the Opposition of the duty of examining those items. Many of those items that were debated last week were then debated for the first time, and it was then that the revelation of the Government policy in reference to them was afforded. A proper examination had to be given, and as the Opposition at all events cannot regard themselves, as I said already, merely as the conduit pipe to convey to the people the wishes of the majority on those matters, the Opposition felt bound fully to examine those things. I think that examination will show the evils inherent in the Government policy—in the policy of protection as it is carried out and exercised by them. I thoroughly agree with the position taken up, in this matter at all events, by Deputy Belton—that this particular procedure and that particular policy are much more calculated to damage the cause of protection than anything that could be said against it from an out-and-out free trade point of view. There was a very useful number of hours spent on Friday and on Saturday in bringing those things to light. The Government does not like examination of those things.

I will admit that there was a welcome contrast between the conduct of the Minister for Industry and Commerce—although we thoroughly disagreed with him, and although he did feel it was expedient to shout once or twice—and that of his colleague. From his colleague, I think it will be admitted, no help whatsoever was given in the discussion on this unique Budget. I think the absence from the House of the President of the Executive Council—the Leader of the House and also the Chairman of the majority Party who are pushing their wills over on the House—during all that Budget debate calls for explanation. Possibly it is not the kind of Budget that he cared to grace with his presence. It is possible, of course, that he may have been engaged in pressing work elsewhere, and that he could not spare all his talents to help the Minister for Finance to bankrupt the country. He may have been engaged in pressing "national" work during the past week, which prevented his attendance in this House. Other financial matters, or other crises may, despite the national crisis, have engaged the attention of the President. His presence elsewhere may have been more vital from his point of view—from the point of view not of the Government but at least of the majority. Party— than here in this House. A little more savoir-faire on the part of the Minister for Finance, and the presence of the President might undoubtedly have avoided a certain amount of the events that occurred last week.

It is no wonder that a certain amount of time has been spent on this Budget this year. I do not think that it dawned on anybody on this side, and I am perfectly sure it did not dawn on anybody on the other side, that the Fianna Fáil Government would introduce a Budget like this, and it was necessary that time should be spent on it. When we see the Government apparently blindly, obstinately, and deliberately plunging into this kind of financial mess, or rather plunging the country into it, it is the duty not merely of the Opposition but even of the occupants of the Government Benches to try to help them out of that particular mess. But we had no contribution, practically speaking, from the Government Benches. Both the President and Deputy Corry were silent. We had the President, the Minister for Finance, and Deputy Corry, all silent on this matter.

Here is a resolution anyhow on which they can speak. I am sure that the three Deputies whom I mentioned are much more at home in trampling on the Opposition, and insisting that the majority has the right to do it and has the power to do it, in connection with this resolution, than they are in discussing or defending the taxes imposed by the Budget. I therefore suggest that, if the President is not still busy with urgent business elsewhere, he be asked to take part in this debate. We got no assistance in the effort to clarify or to defend the Government policy from the Minister who is supposed to be responsible. We saw him last week alternate between sulks and attempts to browbeat either the Chair or the House. That is what was evident to us on this side of the House—those attempts on his part. He alternated between one and the other. That was the contribution of the Minister responsible for the financial business in this House to the debate on the Committee Stage.

There must be an examination of the Bill on the Committee Stage; that is when there is supposed to be examination of the details, of the incidence, and of the consequences of the various taxes put forward. That was the time to justify the different taxes put forward. I do not say that the Minister for Industry and Commerce justified them, but he at least made an attempt to articulate the Government point of view. He certainly says that he made an attempt to justify it. When last week we saw tax after tax being gaily imposed by the Government to the refrain: "20 per cent. is enough but we will put on 40 per cent.", without any advertence by the Government from beginning to end to the effect on the consumer, or any reference to the interests of the consumer, then the clear duty of the Opposition was to examine those things, and there is no justification for the line now taken up by the Government. If there has been delay, the delay is due, as I pointed out, to the original determination of the Government to postpone the introduction of their Budget so that they could be photographed at the Spring Show. To them, that is, I admit, undoubtedly more important than the ordinary rights of Parliamentary institutions or the privileges of democracy. That was the alleged excuse, at all events. It may be that the Government had not then made up its mind that it wanted a new Budget. However, we can only take the official excuse. There was subsequent delay. We saw business, and by no means vital business, not so vital as this particular Budget, put through the House day after day. The original fault, the primary fault for delay lies with the Government, and on that account the House should not accede to the wishes of the Government in this respect.

The motion which is before the House is necessary for the preservation in this State of democratic institutions of Government and public respect for such institutions.

The position for the past few weeks was that by their methods of obstruction the Opposition have been endeavouring to turn the proceedings of the Dáil into a farce. This motion is necessary to prevent them succeeding in doing that. No doubt they hope by destroying public respect for this House to forward their own plans for Party dictatorship. The Government intend to prevent that. The Government are the guardians of the principles of democracy and democratic institutions——

God help us!

——and it is their firm intention to prevent the plans of the Party opposite to destroy these principles and these institutions by the methods they have adopted. This motion is a weapon to be used for that purpose. The Party opposite have been given adequate opportunity of expressing their views upon the proposals in the Finance Bill. These proposals were discussed at length when the Financial Resolutions were before the Dáil upon two occasions. They were also discussed at great length and with considerable amount of repetition during the two stages of that Bill before the House. The Finance Bill must become law before the 5th August or the whole finances of the State are disorganised. The aim of the Party opposite, by obstructing the passage of the measure, is intended to ensure that the finances of this State will become disorganised. They are careless of what damage they may do to the financial position or the credit position of this State so long as they can score a petty Party advantage. There is barely time to secure the passage of this measure in time. It must go to the Seanad, and the Seanad is entitled to 21 days for its consideration. There is no precedent for the Seanad being given less than 21 days for the consideration of the Finance Bill. Unless this Bill passes this House to-day it cannot become law in the time provided by the Constitution, if the Seanad insist upon exercising their rights to consider that Bill for 21 days. If the Bill does not become law within 21 days very considerable damage will be done, not merely to the plans of the Government but damage will be done to every citizen of this State. This motion is necessary to protect the interests of this State and its people, and that is why it must pass to-day.

I want to say a few brief words on this matter. The Government organ became mixed up on the 16th May, when it wanted to persuade people that the Budget it was then reporting to them indicated a reduction in expenditure in this country. The account was headed "Reduction in Expenditure." It required a certain amount of skill and a certain amount of imagination to persuade people that there was to be a reduction of expenditure in the country with the bills that were being handed out with this Budget to each individual householder in the country. Things became mixed up. Therefore, it is in the columns of the sports report that we find some references that were intended to be inserted in the leading article about the Budget. It was in the sports report that we read that this was the gosh darnest almightyest doo-dingle that was ever before seen. This was made to refer to the new Irish heavy-weight wrestler in the United States. But I submit that the paragraph really belonged to the description of the Budget that was being brought before the notice of the people that day. Also, there was a little displacement that indicated that "a sick and wilting industry has been developed into a thriving sport." That unfortunately got into the columns of the wrestling report too, instead of into the leading article regarding taxation. It was also indicated "that nobody thought of the new technique before." Now we have passed to another stage, and we can no longer say of the Budget proposals here that they were the gosh darnest almightyest doo-dingle that was ever seen, because we have gone a step further, and these three motions have outwhipped the original whip, and we have to deal with scorpions now. I do not say that we have seen the end of it, for when I see this guillotine motion I wonder, like the Irish Press writer, that nobody thought of this new technique before. Yesterday, however, we got the explanation: “We have now for the first time in this House a Government with a majority,” and therefore we see the things that we are seeing, and instead of “a sick and wilting industry,” like taxation was up to the present, we see now that it is a thriving sport. The Minister's assistants in this sport can go and stick their noses into every home, and after inspecting everything in these houses, come back to the Minister at night and say: “You see what we thought could be taxed to-day.” They look into the smallest items in the homes, and the only things now left to tax are the little odds and ends that find their way into odd boxes and vases and are called in the Gaeltacht craithnisí. We will have a further schedule of them for taxation or a further emergency Order.

The Minister cannot by his guillotine motion make this country a more thriving country than the people can make it under present circumstances. There is not a section of the community that is not put to the pin of its collar to-day not so much to find the wherewithal to pay taxation, but to find the wherewithal to keep themselves and their families in any kind of a decent position. Will the Minister for Industry and Commerce having now thrown at his disposal for a few months the troop of people who were seeking out any new articles that could be taxed, take these people and send them around to his employment exchanges and make an inquiry from every person under 22 years of age and try and find out from them what industrial hope they have under the present circumstances? Will the Minister carry out an examination like that? Here we have the people whose principal industry is cut away and burdened by taxation, year after year and going deeper and deeper into it. The main burden lies on them, on their initiative, with their own resources, to eke out an existence here either in agriculture or in any industrial circumstances here, and what are the prospects for them? The Minister has, by his Budget, just skinned every man and woman of any few pence that are left. What hope is he leaving to them to make a livelihood in the country, where the depression grows more serious as a result of his Budget?

Guillotines will not save the matter. Shutting your ears to argument will not save the matter. Keeping silent, like the Minister for Finance when information has to be given or explanations have to be made, is not going to help either the Government or the people. If the people are forced to continue under the conditions under which they are at present, all the protestations of the Ministry as to the greatness of their nationalism and the high ideals they have for this country and its people will all be nothing but so much frothing of people who have got nothing but their own pride or their own ignorance, or their blind spite, not so much against anybody else in the country as against the fact that circumstances have driven them along the lines they have followed. The Minister with his guillotine to-day can force all this huge burden of taxation through. It is already down on the backs of the people. But the Ministers have responsibility; they have the future of the people to safeguard, whose conditions they have to try and improve. They are doing nothing but making them worse. By their actions here they are destroying the only institutions that can serve to direct the people upon proper roads industrially, agriculturally, or socially. If they go very much further in the destruction of these institutions, then their last state will be very much worse than the first and so will that of the people. The Minister for Industry and Commerce is very glib, but even his glibness is not going to help either himself or the people if his glibness is simply going to cover up the actual destruction of these institutions of Government that the people have had up to the present.

This motion deals with a Bill which bears on its final page: "Ordered by Dáil Eireann to be printed, 6th July, 1935." This is the 10th July and this measure of 41 pages, according to the guillotine motion before us, has to be passed through all its stages in this House in four days. Whenever one hears a good deal of noise from Ministers or sees it portrayed in the newspapers of the majority Party in this House, one may reasonably come to the conclusion that they are getting nervous. They make most noise when they are most nervous. It has been stated that this motion is for the purpose of preserving the democratic institutions of this State. The motion in its own terms bears its own condemnation. The newspaper to which I have referred makes reference this morning to 121 speeches in connection with the various items which are going to be taxed under this Bill. On page 21 of the Bill the Schedules begin, and there are in all eight Schedules. The first has 29 different items which are going to be taxed and the second 17. The third has one with 30 different scales of charges in it, and in Part II there are four drawbacks; in (a) five drawbacks; in (b) six drawbacks, and in (c) 15 drawbacks. The fourth Schedule has eight items and the fifth has one, with 11 different scales in it. Part II of the fifth Schedule has three different scales in it and Part III has three different scales. The sixth Schedule has six different items, the seventh has in Parts I and II six terminations of duties; in Part III, one termination; in Part IV, two terminations. The eighth Schedule has 18 different items. So that there are in all 83 separate items, and if one includes the separate scales of charges, there are in all 126 different items. Yet complaint was made by the organ of the majority Party in this House that there were 121 speeches in respect of all these items—five short of the total number of items under review! The measure was introduced on the 6th July. The Seanad is to be given 21 days to consider it and the Dáil four.

The matter has been under discussion since last May.

Since the 6th July. If the House has discussed the Budget of the Minister it has discussed a Budget which was introduced at a later date than any Budget since this State was set up. What was the meaning of the delay? There was no other reason for the delay than that Ministers were aghast at the taxation that had to be imposed; that they argued and disputed and delayed in the hope, like Mr. Micawber, that something would turn up. If anything is damaging the credit of this State it is that sort of business. No State can ever prosper if the facts of the case that should be presented are kept from it, and the facts of this case are serious.

The first Budget introduced by the present Government proposed to collect from the people £27,000,000. They have gone up the scale until this Bill seeks to impose taxation which the Minister estimates at £29,300,000. The Government's first Budget put £4,000,000 extra taxation on the people and every succeeding Budget they introduced since has increased the taxation on the people. If 74 hours were absorbed in the discussion of the Budget, where else should it be discussed except in the Parliament of the people? Who else has a right to discuss a measure concerning taxation except the representatives of the people? Do the rights of the people belong only to one Party? The people of the country as a whole contribute their quota to the taxation imposed in this Budget and if they see, year after year, millions mounting upon millions, and the receipts from the main industry of the country going down, who has the right to speak on that subject except those who have been sent here by the votes of the people? Are four days considered to be sufficient to discuss a Finance Bill? Do not talk to us about having discussed the details of this measure for 70 hours. We are now dealing with the main fundamental principles involved not alone in connection with taxation, but the whole financial economy of this State.

The excuse given for the introduction of this measure is that it is to preserve what they call the democratic institutions of this State. Let us examine that. What has been the history of the whole world in connection with democracy? When one examines the historical inroads upon democratic rights one finds that they have been to get for rulers, for monarchs as they were called up to the time of the revolution, for Czars, or Emperors, or Kings, authority over the people's purse, and the people's representatives in Parliament, year after year, resented that encroachment upon their liberties and rights. Now we come to the point where there are no longer monarchs attempting to seize the people's purse and their authority and liberties. We have the Star Chamber method of those who posture before the people as being the democrats of to-day. What are they doing? They are resorting to practices and systems that even monarchs in their worst days would not have attempted.

This thing is not unheard of in this country, as I have said in this House before. An Irish Parliament met at one time in the Blue Coat School. Only by a single vote did the House refuse to give funds for 21 years. One man stood between the rulers of that time and the people. If 60 or 70 men stand to-day against the rapacity of the rulers of this State to take from the people what they are unable to give, are we to be told that it is for the preservation of democratic rights that a guillotine motion such as this is going to closure discussion in the Dáil and to prevent the people of this country from knowing what is being taken from them? We have a right to discuss the injury that is being done to the national credit of the State by taxation of this description. It is time that there should be some protest against our modern rulers treading the very same path and going the same way that other rulers in the past have gone. They should realise that the democratic rights that were won by the sweat and labour of the people will not be lightly given up.

Deputy Cosgrave worked himself into a white heat over an imaginary grievance. He complains that the Government have brought in a closure motion, after 74 hours had been devoted to one stage of a Bill. He says that Deputies of this House are the only people into whose hands is given the right to defend the people and to prevent this taxation, but he does not tell us of the type of speech made during these 74 hours. I was listening here on Friday night to Deputy Belton telling us how one could make a football. He told us how you got your wax-ends and how you got your leather and made the football. Other speakers behaved in the same way. We had ten hours on Friday of that sort of talk. We met again on Saturday and we got from Deputy Bennett directions as to how we were to play football, and suggestions as to how we should pick a team and the type of football we should use. What sort of contribution is that to the financial business of the State? When we were in Opposition this very identical closure motion was used. Yet the maximum time this Party took to discuss the Finance Bill was 17 hours in 1929. For the last two years we were in Opposition we spent only 11 hours in discussing it. Here we have 74 hours already taken by the Opposition on the Financial Resolutions and on the Finance Bill up to the present stage. Still they complain that we are closuring them! Deputy Mulcahy, Deputy Cosgrave and the rest of them pretend that they have the greatest respect for democratic institutions. They have always been accusing us of trying to burst them up. I suggest to them that until they are able to give a better contribution to the debates here and tell us in more constructive language what should be done, instead of wasting time in telling us how to pick football teams, how to make footballs and rubbish of that kind, the people will know how to deal with them. They took their measure long ago in the elections, but if they go on as they have been going on for some days past here, even the small number of Deputies they have in this House now will be very much reduced by the time the next election comes on, if they do not get down to business and stop this nonsense.

Take off the mask.

It is rather startling to hear the Minister for Industry and Commerce, of all people, making the charge against members of this Party that their aim is to disorganise the finances of the State. If that were true of any member of this House he would not deserve to sit in this House either as Minister or Deputy. As I say, it is rather startling to hear such a pronouncement from the Minister for Industry and Commerce, having regard to his performances in the year 1929 when the Third National Loan was floated. He went out through the country and he made a speech on a Sunday. The National Loan was being opened on the following morning. In that speech he told the people—and it was published in every newspaper up and down the country—that this country was sinking into a bog of bankruptcy. By way of proving that that was not an accidental performance on his part, but that it was part of a conspiracy, I may say that his colleague, who is now the Vice-President, speaking in another part of the country 40 miles away, used a similar expression when he told his audience that the outlook was as black as night. These are the patriots who come into this House now and who say that the Party who are endeavouring to protect the rights of the people are aiming at the disorganisation of the national finances. What was the meaning of these two speeches in 1929? What was the meaning of the speech of the Minister for Industry and Commerce at that time except to prevent the people of this country from subscribing to the National Loan? What was the object except to make the loan a failure?

He went on to tell us to-day that the present motion was necessary for the preservation of democratic institutions. That is a very nice sentiment from the Minister who gets up to advocate this gag motion. The Minister for Industry and Commerce, by reason of his well-known love for truth deserves to be known as the George Washington of that Party. He certainly has shown somewhat more than his customary audacity in suggesting that this motion is calculated to preserve democratic institutions in this country. Judging by our experience of this House last week and this week, motions to gag the Dáil are becoming part of the daily procedure in this House. Some time about a year ago the President told the House on one occasion that he would like to give the Dáil a six months' holiday. The aspiration expressed in that statement is being carried out by other but more dangerous methods because this motion is part of the machinery to prevent criticism in the Dáil, and to prevent representatives of the people on this side of the House expressing their views on the burden of taxation that is now being imposed on the country. The closure on the Finance Bill which taxes every necessity of life and the closure on Estimates, involving an expenditure of £11,000,000, is rendered all the more scandalous by the conduct or the misconduct of the responsible Minister, if one can use the word "responsible" in any of its senses with regard to the Minister for Finance. We remember his insulting disregard for the rights of the House, the rights of the people and the people's representatives in this House, when he sat in the House last week reading his "yellow-back" and ignoring every request for information on the scope and meaning of his Budget. That conduct was such that he would have been more fittingly employed sitting outside in the Lobby playing a ukelele than sitting in this House, showing his contempt for the Chair and the Deputies of this House. Apart from the usual scheme of stifling discussion, the Minister has a very particular reason for stifling discussion on this year's Budget with its top-heavy cargo of new burdens on the back of the people.

The great author of the scheme for reducing taxation by £2,000,000 now presents us with a Budget in which taxation is increased by over £8,000,000 and, fittingly and appropriately enough, he has sitting behind him as Parliamentary Secretary the gentleman who achieved fame by his scheme for abolishing income tax and who, having achieved fame in that way and arrived in this House, has amused a cynical world ever since by his oleaginous advocacy of an income tax more than 50 per cent. higher than the income tax that existed in 1931. I say these proceedings in this House are designed and calculated to establish a dictatorship in this country. The Party opposite profess a hatred for the name of a dictatorship but they have, in fact, established a dictatorship here in substance and in essence. They profess a love for the word "Republic", but they violate every principle on which every republic is founded by taking away and destroying, so far as they are able to do it, the rights of the people in this State.

Deputy Rice is not correct in suggesting that there is a difference of 50 per cent. between the rate for income tax now and the rate in 1931, when his Party were in office. The rate then was 3/6 and the rate now is 4/6.

Mr. Rice

What about the allowances then and the decrease in the allowances?

The allowances now are much more generous.

Mr. Rice

Not at all.

This Government is almost three years in office and during that time they have carried out a very heavy legislative programme. I think we can say that we have sat for far more days in the year than our predecessors did. We have had much more business to do. We have given many more facilities in general. The fundamental question here is whether, when a Government is returned, it is to be allowed to carry out its duties. As has been stated by the Minister for Agriculture, this is a Government which for the first time has a majority of the elected representatives of the Irish Free State. Deputy Cosgrave assured the people when this Government came in that they were to be facilitated. I would like the Opposition to show where they were facilitated. They were facilitated when Bills like the Unemployment Assistance Bill, involving very large sums of money, were being put through. The large sums involved in those Bills are, of course, mainly responsible for the taxation that the Opposition now complain of. Those Bills were allowed through the House with practically no criticism from the Opposition. There is no criticism when money is being spent, but there is plenty of criticism when money is being collected.

The Opposition are not at all consistent. The Government is consistent. The country knows the Government's policy, knows that it stands for a policy of out-and-out protection. There is no question of examination by Tariff Commissions. The Eighth Schedule, if we look at it from the revenue point of view, on which the whole of this rubbishy discussion last Saturday took place, brings in about £5,000. It concerns items like cricket balls, tennis racquets, footballs and so on. Have we not been told by the Opposition in the South Dublin Election that no tariff that is put on by this Government would be removed by them? Why has it been necessary for the past three years to hold up the work of the Government of the country by a senseless and ridiculous obstruction to a policy that they say now they favour? Not alone Deputy Cosgrave, but Deputy MacDermot, indicated that outside. There has been senseless obstruction on these items in the Schedule. There has been no criticism and no amendment of any importance or any utility.

With regard to the general propaganda against the Budget, nobody can say that the country has not got plenty of it. In two by-elections in two very important constituencies the Opposition have had plenty of opportunities and they may have more opportunities of putting their case before the public. Discussions in relation to the Budget have been going on in this House for something like three months. It is absolute nonsense to pretend that there is any stifling of discussion. The simple fact is that the business has got to be got through by a certain time. We do not mind sitting through the whole of August and September to get the business through, if necessary, and we have shown that. What is the attitude of the Opposition in regard to this financial business? We were told the Opposition were going to facilitate the Government, were going to be a reasonable Opposition and a patriotic Opposition; we were told they were going to see that the fundamental principles were carried out and that the business of the country was going to be done. Where is that Opposition at the present time?

Deputy Rice tells us the President wants a six months' holiday. Of course he does. Was it not the custom for ten years to sit for a small number of weeks in the year for one and a half to two and a half days? Have we not been trying to do the business of the country by sitting for four days each week and yet we are not able to get it done? If we give Deputies a few all-night sittings they will tell us that their health cannot stand it and they are too delicate. In any case, they have to be at home saving the hay. We are men and we prefer the humane killer. We used to hear, when business was not nearly so pressing, when the whole of the finance business, including the Finance Bill, the Budget Resolution and the Estimates were got through in about 80 hours, that Ministers had not much time to do their business. At least two Ministers of the previous Government said here that they were sick and tired of the Opposition in this House, as it gave them no time to do the ordinary business of the country.

It is all very well for the Opposition to talk in the Dáil, but it is not by talk that business is done. If Ministers are going to be detained in the Dáil for a large portion of the year, sitting four days per week, it is quite evident they cannot attend to their administrative business. That is one of the reasons why there is delay in producing legislation. The Government is put to the pin of its collar to give these measures the consideration that is necessary, thinking them out, drafting them and preparing them. We were often reminded of that fact, not once but several times, during important debates that took place here in the past. That seems to be entirely forgotten now. Did not Deputy Cosgrave, when he was President, and his Ministers, frequently tell us that we were absolutely silly to think that the real business of the country was done in the Dáil? They told us the real business of the country was done in the Government offices, by Ministers in touch with their staffs of officials, carrying out the business of their Departments.

The question is whether the Government, with the majority of the people behind them, an unqualified majority, for certain aspects of its policy, and with support even from the leaders of the Opposition, is entitled to hold up this senseless obstruction. We had to consider amendments here to every single line of the Schedule, and the whole of the Schedule was only a fleabite, not worthy of consideration, if the other issues are of such magnitude as we are told.

There is another point I would like to stress, and that is the point brought up by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, which seems to have annoyed Deputy Cosgrave. That point is that when the pressure is so great, as it has been found in every modern State, when the economic pressure, the effort to solve economic problems, to get solutions as near perfection as possible, and to get Government policy through all the stages of complicated machinery is so great, there is no Parliament in the world that could be satisfied that business is being carried on in the way it should be.

We are not living in the mid-Victorian age; we are living in an age of great pressure and it is just because Parliamentary institutions have not been able to do their work that they have been abolished, and that gentlemen in black shirts or blue shirts or red shirts have come along with their little groups of followers and laid down the law, because in these countries they feel that they have men with a will, and with at least a definite policy, at the head of affairs. This Government, as well as any other Government in Europe to-day, at any rate has a definite policy. There can be no doubt whatever about it. It is obvious to everybody. It is clear to everybody. It is the policy that we were elected on and the policy we are carrying out. We ask from these gentlemen, who would try to put other systems of government in force in this country, if the opportunity were given to them and the circumstances were favourable, to be a little more sincere in their criticisms of democratic institutions and to try to enable this Government to do its business in a proper and legitimate way.

The motion which is now before the House, is in my view, a scandalous, a shocking and a shameful attempt to uproot Parliamentary institutions and turn them into a mockery, a delusion, and a snare. Here we are dealing with the most important measure of the year, a Bill that touches every member of the community and comes home to the business and the bosom of every man in the Free State. Why all this indecent haste? Since the cow jumped over the moon and the dish ran away with the spoon there was never such a reversal of established order, and the only excuses that were put forward for this are urgency and obstruction—words as blessed as Mesopotamia. Why all this urgency? Who have been the cause of the delay? There was ample time to have this Budget brought forward in such a way as to give the representatives of the people the chance of carrying out their main function, which is to see that the burdens imposed upon the people are not appallingly oppressive, if not actually impossible. The leader of the Opposition has dealt effectively with the plea of obstruction.

An attempt has been made to show that there was some organised obstruction to the measure, but I think that the leader of the Opposition has disposed of that argument. Finally, as a last resort, the Minister for Industry and Commerce appealed to the sacred name of democracy. Well, all I can say is: Democracy! Many crimes are committed in thy name! The villain of the whole piece—I do not use the word in any derogatory sense—who is not in the House at the present moment, sat there smug and self-satisfied, reminding one of little Jack Horner, sitting in the corner, munching his Budget pie. It may well be, however, that whatever plum, if any, he may happen to pull out will give him a very bad attack of indigestion, which will call for the assistance of the Minister for Agriculture. There was an old land agent in Ireland many years ago, who gave evidence before a Commission set up by the British Parliament. He was asked what was the best way to make the Irish farmers prosperous, and his answer was: "Salt them well with rent." It appears to be the policy of the present Government and their belief that the only way in which the people of the Free State can be made prosperous, happy, and contented is by salting them well with taxes—taxes of such a nature that, if continued, they are bound to bring on a condition of national bankruptcy in this country. Of course, I know that the motion will be carried by the House, but it will be a Pyrrhic victory that may prove very dear to the victors. Time, after all, is the best almanack, and we—the minority, if you wish— sitting on this side of the House, confidently leave the verdict to that impartial tribunal.

In the course of my observations, I dealt with the fact that this was ordered to be printed on the 6th July. I understand now that the matter was under discussion since May. It escaped my notice that it was amended in Committee.

I see. That shows how reliable the Deputy's statements are.

When there was a similar motion before the House yesterday I felt a bit at sea, and did not know where the boat was drifting to, but towards the close of the sitting last night I saw very well where it was drifting. I saw or, at least, I think I saw, what prompts these guillotine motions. I remember the stand taken yesterday, particularly by the Minister for Industry and Commerce. I have also noted his stand to-day, and he has shifted his ground to-day. Yesterday, he said that the Opposition, in private negotiations, informed his side of the House that three hours would suffice to get through with the Bill. Now he says they are not satisfied to get six hours. "Is it not rank hypocrisy," he said, "to say that we want to closure discussion?" Well, I am sure that it was not by an accident that the silent strong man who sat there last week and would not give any information—if he was capable of giving any, which I do not know—took up so much time yesterday. Of the six hours allocated for the discussion of that short Bill yesterday, there was left one effective hour for discussion. Deputy Brennan opened the discussion and occupied ten minutes. The Minister for Finance followed and took up 40 minutes out of the hour, leaving ten minutes for the following speakers. So that, in fact, the six hours boiled down to 20 minutes.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce, who is never short of an excuse, but who somehow gives it in such a rollicking kind of a way that one does not blame him too much—he will always manage to get out of a corner —did not take up that stand to-day. He said, with an air of sincerity and conviction, that this motion was put up to save the democratic institutions of this House and of this country. He was followed by the Minister for Education, who talked of the tasks that are before democratic States to-day. They are not political, he said; they are economic, and we want to be engaged in solving those economic questions. Well, the recognised key to economic solutions the world over in all times, and the recognised key to freedom, is finance. If finance is not run properly there must inevitably be economic chaos. If finance is not under the control of the people there must inevitably be dictation and slavery. Freedom is lost the moment the people lose their grip on the finances of the country. The last Government was severely criticised for its managerial system in local authorities, particularly in the local authority in the City of Dublin, on which I listened to a condemnation by Deputy Kelly for two solid hours one night in the City Hall; yet that piece of modern tyranny imposed on local authorities by the previous Government left this handle to freedom, that whatever else the City Manager has powers to do, we, the corporators, have power to strike the rate, and if we do not give him the money we shut him up. And there is no closure when the rate is being struck. Deputy Kelly is the councillor who is then articulate and eloquent about what the people have to bear, of what the poor are suffering——

He is not silent.

You are silent for two or three months, except now and again when you interrupt me. I hope you will not be silent to-day. Let us consider what are the consequences of the Bill that is to pass this House to-day under the guillotine. Let us consider what the two previous Ministers have stated. Let us consider, and weigh carefully, the incompetence of the Ministry of Finance to meet and solve the economic situation which has grown up in this country—the incompetence of the Ministry of Finance to vindicate the right of this country to freedom. Take any paper to-day and look at the market reports. Deputy Cosgrave, the leader of the Opposition, pointed out how taxation has gone up in the last three or four years. It is a pity he did not deal a little with the other side of the picture, and show how the national income has gone down just as taxation has gone up. Let us take one item, and one item will be a speech on the lot. The price of Irish butter in Liverpool to-day, according to the quotations in to-day's papers, is 85/- per cwt.; the price of New Zealand butter is 90/- per cwt., and the price of Australian butter is 87/- per cwt.

How much is that per lb.?

It is so high that the people whom you claim to have consecrated your life to help will not be able to buy it. They will have margarine or, as it is locally known, "Maggie Ryan."

Mr. Kelly

They only buy in lbs. or half lbs.

The Deputy can resolve it into the price per lb. We have not time to wait for the Deputy. The price of Swedish butter is 90/- per cwt.; for Finnish butter, 96/-, and for the Dutch butter the price is 84/-. But that is not the whole story. The actual value of the money to the Dane at 100/- is 125/- per cwt., when he takes his money back to Denmark, under the exchange advantage to the Dane. The value of New Zealand butter when the money is taken back to New Zealand is 112/- per cwt. The Australian 87/- per cwt. is worth in Australian currency 108/9 per cwt. The 96/- for Finland butter is worth in Finnish currency, when taken back to Finland, 112/- per cwt. Let us see what the 85/- which the Irishman gets for his butter is worth. If there is anything of importance in considering the Budget and the capacity of the people to pay the demands of that Budget, that capacity can be measured only by the national income, and the national income in this country is mainly agricultural. In fact, it is entirely agricultural, because agriculture has to carry all the parasites on its back. That 85/- per cwt. has to be cut down in this way: 40 per cent. is taken by the British in the economic war that we have won, which means that 34/- comes off that 85/-, leaving a net figure of 51/- that the Irishman gets for his cwt. of butter and brings back here.

Last evening, the Minister for Finance contradicted Deputy Mulcahy when he said we were being taxed to give England cheap butter. For fear he would be contradicted he monopolised all the time which the guillotine had left the House to debate the matter. Now, if he has the pluck to get up later, I challenge him to deny that what we get for our cwt. of butter, between Ireland and England as two trading units, is a net figure of 51/-. But the exporter would have to stop business at that price; he could not carry on. And what is done? The taxpayer has to come to the rescue of the exporter and give the exporter a subsidy of 51/- out of taxation. In other words, the taxpayer has to pay up to 50 per cent. of the cost of sending the butter to England. That is the position here.

Last week when we were discussing the Finance Bill in Committee we could not drag from the Minister a solitary word of explanation of the various taxes that were imposed. Yet he had the hardihood, the cheek and the impertinence to repeat here yesterday what he had said in his Budget speech—that the tax on the fixed quantity of wheat which we have to import into this country to give us our daily bread —on which he has put a tax of 6d. per cwt.—is going to be a benefit to the farmer. If the Minister understands his own Budget and if he understands the Agricultural Produce (Cereals) Bill for which he voted and for which I voted last week, he will know that percentage is fixed to come in, and that percentage is measured by the amount of wheat short of our requirements that we produce. We must get that percentage, and that percentage is based on the amount of wheat grown here during a cereal year. The taxes on what we have to import help agriculture in no way in the world. On the contrary, these taxes on our daily bread are an additional outlay on agriculture and an additional burden on the people.

Yesterday the Minister made the welkin ring with his wild and foolish statements. He claimed to have the mantle of Griffith and Collins on his shoulders; he claimed to be carrying out their policy. He taunted me with having voted against everything in the Budget that helped that policy and that helped to develop Irish industry. I challenged him then and I challenge him now to say where I voted against any measure which had helped that policy or helped Irish industry. His colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, talked in in a similar manner. The country is economically depressed, yet the people have still to listen to the clap-trap of the Minister for Finance claiming that his is a Republican Government. That Government has not reached in the discharge of its national duty the stage that every Government in the British Dominions has reached. The Minister for Finance is the Minister who is to look after our financial position. He is the Minister who must take cognisance of economic tendencies, and has to regulate the finances of the country. What is the first step that must be taken by the Minister for Finance in any nation? He must first get machinery to correct any economic tendencies. We have been treated for a good while to shouting and cheering about nothing but nonsense. We are being told that we have a Republican Government because we abolished a form of words.

We have been asked to shout because the British Privy Council no longer can hear Irish appeals. Another victory for the Republic. But has the Minister looked to what must first be done in discharge of his duty to the citizens of this State? Has he discharged that duty in the same way as the Governments of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa have done? In other words, has his Government looked after the credit and banking position of the people and have they set up a local authority? If they have not set up a local authority like the Dominions to look after and control banking and currency and the credit of their respective countries, then the Government have failed in their duty to the citizens. When economic depression came to England who was consulted? The Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Governor of the Bank of England. When economic depression came to the U.S.A. whom did President Roosevelt gather around him but the bankers, those in control of the Federal Reserve System? What happened in England? In 1931 England could not sell her goods because the value of her currency was too high.

Would the Deputy relate his remarks re banking and currency to the motion on the Order Paper in connection with the Finance Bill?

I take it that the Finance Bill is the chief product of the Minister for Finance in this whole year. As far as this House is concerned, here is one of the things he did in the last year—he set up a Banking Commission——

That is a matter for debate on the Vote for the Minister's Department rather than on a Bill which is dealing with specific terms and items.

And the Banking Commission is still sitting.

This Finance Bill is proposing certain taxation. It proposes to get £29,000,000 by taxation, I have given instances of the economic situation that has arisen, and I take that to govern the lot. I do not want to go over the whole gamut on the paper. What militates chiefly against the price of our butter in the export market is the fact of our currency being on a parity with the £ sterling and controlled by the Bank of England. We have to sell on a parity with the British £. Our competitors the Danes, the Finns, the Australians and the New Zealanders can sell their butter and get British pounds and British shillings for it. Their currency is depleted as compared with sterling, and when they bring the British currency back to their own country they have, generally speaking, an advantage of 25 per cent. That is as if the British Government gave them 25 per cent. of an advantage over us. The Minister for Finance, whose job it is to set up in this country the same machinery as those other Dominions have, has not done his job. If we have any pretentions to be a nation, much less a Republic for the 32 counties, much less a special brand of republic, he should have machinery at his command, at least as good as the Dominious have to protect their citizens and their nationals and the trade of their agriculturists. The Minister has not done that. I am criticising him and his Department for not having done so. I am also pointing out the impossibility of carrying on our industries in such circumstances when we have to compete at a loss. We are at such disadvantage with our competitors in the British market, and that such disadvantage is entirely due to the incompetency and, what I might term, the unnationalism of the Minister and the Government of which he is a member. It is nauseating to listen to members of the Government and the Government Party saying: "We are for Ireland and everybody else is for England!" No, the Minister and the Government are for England. In this matter he is placing the control of our daily lives and everything we produce in the hands of the British Government through the Bank of England. The Minister for Finance hypocritically called himself a Republican here yesterday; worse still, he claimed that the mantle of Arthur Griffith had fallen on his shoulders. If Arthur Griffith were listening to him his bones would turn in his grave at the insult. Here is all that he can do, although he claims to be a republican and nationalist. The best he can do is to appoint a Commission to examine and report on the system in Saorstát Eireann of currency, banking, credit, public borrowing and lending—including borrowing by the Corporation, which they cannot do—and the pledging of State credit on behalf of agriculture.

The Banking Commission is not relevant either to the motion or to the Bill.

I do not want to discuss the Banking Commission as such. But the Minister, instead of acting up to the standard of nationhood here, and fixing up national machinery to control our currency, credit, and banking, has abrogated that duty and delegated it to a Commission. That shows that he has not a proper sense of his responsibility—that this country which bled so much for freedom does not want it now. Instead of that, in appointing a Commission of experts he should have said: "We are a nation now; we want to travel forward, not backward; we want you, as a Commission of experts, to take evidence and report to us, not as to whether we shall have a national currency and banking system, because that is decided, since we are a nation, but as to what is the best national currency and banking system." That is what one would expect from an Irish nationalist occupying the position of Minister for Finance. It is not the business of the Minister to appoint a Commission and tell them to report to him whether he shall be free financially or not. Imagine the Provisional Government in 1922, when it appointed a body to frame a Constitution, saying to that body: "We want you to decide and report whether we shall have an Irish Parliament in Dublin in full political control." What would happen? What would the Minister for Finance have said then, or what would he say now? What would anybody say? But the Minister for Finance has, in a matter of far greater importance to this country than a Parliament, appointed a body and left it in their hands to decide and report to him whether we shall be financially free or not. If that body says: "The present system is all right; just touch it up here and there," the seat of power over this country will remain, not in this House, but in the Bank of England, and the Minister will be responsible.

Small petty excuses were given here to-day, some of which impugned the conduct of the Ceann Comhairle in the Chair when it was stated by two Ministers that there was constant repetition. I think you, Sir, keep an eye on repetition. In fact, I have one vivid recollection of an occasion when you did, and when somebody paid the penalty. I certainly did not hear any repetition last week. If this Bill was discussed in a friendly way, which it could have been, and if when difficulties arose and people over here wanted information and points elucidated, the Minister helped them, he would, even if they wanted to be obstructive, which I did not see any sign of, disarm them by elucidating the points. But, instead of that, he would not speak. The Minister for Finance should remember that he has a bigger job to do than merely collect taxes; that it is one thing to impose taxation and another to collect it. I hope he does not think there is any threat hidden in that. But the taxation should be of such dimensions as will not lean too heavily on individuals or on the business of the country. He cannot demonstrate to this House that since he took up office the national income has improved. It is quite the contrary. On the other hand, national expenditure has gone up. He should try to equate the burden of taxation to the capacity to pay. If he does not and it is lopsided, with the weight pressing most heavily on the people who are not able to bear the load, there can be but one inevitable end.

Deputy O'Sullivan to-day referred to the statement of the Minister last night in which he tried to impute wrong motives to everybody who does not agree with him. He and the Minister for Industry and Commerce last night, and the Minister for Industry and Commerce here to-day also, accused us of being opposed to the development of Irish industry because we voted, not against the principle, but against the size of a tariff proposed by the Minister and embodied in this Bill. A 50 per cent. tariff was proposed on a certain article or articles as to which the Minister for Industry and Commerce informed the House that the Irish industry was developing with a 25 per cent. tariff and that the imports were practically nil. We asked the Minister for Finance to justify the increase in the tariff. I said I would vote for any tariff they wanted to put on if the Minister for Finance or the Minister for Industry and Commerce would say that the present tariff was not sufficient to develop the industry which he wanted to develop. But the Minister for Finance would not speak. Then he had the audacity to get up yesterday and misrepresent my attitude.

Let me take one of the tariffs proposed in this Bill, that on footballs. The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs tried to make an excuse about the time that was taken up in referring to the making of footballs. All I said about footballs was that if they were hand made one country had no advantage over another in making football covers, except that one country might be more technically efficient than another, or might work harder. That was the only difference; machinery did not come into it. In support of that and notwithstanding that 25 per cent. increase in the tariff which is going to be carried through under the guillotine to-day, I might refer the Minister to a letter which I saw in the daily Press, including "truth in the news," on, I think, Monday of this week. A football cover-maker in Dublin who read the issue as being a tariff to help industry here or no tariff—the issue was not a tariff or no tariff but a tariff of a certain height against a tariff of a greater height—wrote to say that as far as his business is concerned, there will be no increase in the price. He carries on business in King Street or Andrew Street. Taking his standard, what is the need for a tariff? Yet we want a guillotine motion to pass through an extra tariff of 25 per cent. —not a tariff, but an extra tariff. There we have over the name of a maker of football covers a statement that he wants no tariff, that no matter what tariff is imposed his price will not go up. He must be satisfied with his present price.

Has not all this been discussed in Committee?

I am making the point that the Minister for Finance tries to misrepresent the attitude of Deputies like myself who have voted a certain way, as being opposed to the development of Irish industry. I resent that very much. I would not resent it if I were a Free Trader but I am not a Free Trader. I stood for Protection before the Minister for Finance understood what it was. I still stand for it and I am not afraid of any vote I have given here so long as it is represented correctly. It should be beneath the dignity of the Minister for Finance to misrepresent the attitude of any Deputy in this House. Surely he has enough points of difference to accept a challenge on, without looking for a point by misrepresentation. There are a lot of other matters in this Bill but I feel that I have occupied sufficient of the short time available and I do not want to take up the time of the House any further.

You made sure you took enough of it anyway.

Why cannot you get up and not be acting the hypocrite about the poor?

Mr. Kelly

You took the whole time anyway.

The motion on the Order Paper is a motion to fix the time table for the Report Stage and the Fifth Stage of the Finance Bill. I think the speech to which we have just listened from Deputy Belton is the strongest argument in favour of a motion of that sort that could be adduced in this House.

Quite right. You got too much of the truth in it.

I am sure that a stranger listening to the proceedings of the Dáil during the last hour or so would be uncertain as to whether he was a spectator of the dignified proceedings of a deliberative assembly or whether some ill-fortune had made him, for that hour, an inhabitant of bedlam.

That is a reflection on the Chair.

Leave him alone.

The Deputy's speech is typical of the speeches that have been delivered by the Deputy and his associates in Opposition during the whole course of this Finance Bill.

I called the bluff of the republic.

This is a Bill which according to the statement of the Deputy's leader—for I know that the Deputy is still a member of the Fine Gael Party in disguise——

I am the Deputy's leader.

I know that if there is something which they themselves would have a certain delicacy in doing, the unpalatable task is entrusted to the Deputy. The Deputy habitually follows Deputy Cosgrave into the Opposition Lobby. Deputy Cosgrave has told us that the financial business is the most important business of the Dáil. Deputy McGilligan said that the whole substance of legislative freedom resided in the control over public finances. Speaking yesterday on a similar motion he said: "So we have in regard to this question of public finance, the elaborate procedure of financial resolutions, the general debate immediately and a detailed expression of opinion on the details of the Financial Resolutions, the Report Stage of the Financial Resolutions, and the bringing of these Resolutions into a Finance Bill which goes through the ordinary stages of Second Stage, where the principle is discussed, and the Committee Stage, where every detail is exposed, dissected, criticised and so on." But he forgot to add that in this State, owing to requirements of the Constitution and the law, all this has to be done under a time table. It is intricate and delicate machinery. It is machinery which should not be abused. It is machinery which should not be violated. It is machinery, every element of which every Deputy in this House should be concerned to see preserved, and which should not, again in the words of Deputy McGilligan, "be broken like a vase in the hands of a fool."

The fact that so much care is taken to see that every aspect of taxation will be fully considered in this House also implies that no time should be wasted in useless or needless discussion by any Deputy, that no one should employ useless and senseless verbiage merely to waste Parliamentary time or to secure some Party advantage. If this machinery for the discussion of financial business is to be preserved, an essential requirement is that it should not be abused. Yet, Sir, as I have said, the speech to which we have just listened from the Deputy for the past hour is typical of the speeches which he delivered on practically every item which went to make up that Finance Bill. We had the same rambling disquisitions on a subject of which the Deputy knows very little— the subject of currency and banking.

Why have we not a national currency?

The same impertinent interruptions!

What are you talking about a Republic for, when you do not control your currency and banking? Come, face up to it now!

The same attempt——

You have no right to declare a Republic.

——to bring the institutions of this State into public disrepute.

You have no right to betray the country, and you did.

It was my misfortune to be associated for a very short time with Deputy Belton. I remember when he came cringing to be a member of the Party.

That is not true.

Perhaps Deputy Belton will sit down. What Deputy Belton did say at any time does not arise on this motion, and Deputy Belton is not entitled to interrupt the Minister. Deputy Belton made a lengthy statement. He was quite entitled to say what he wanted to say in that time. He is not entitled to interrupt the Minister in the irrelevant way he is interrupting him.

Just a word of explanation. The Minister has been very insulting, but I think it beneath me to ask him to withdraw his insults. When other matters arise, I will tell him what I think of him.

I was explaining to you, Sir, why I propose to disregard——

Now, shout: "Up the Republic" all of you over there, and give the Bank of England control of your money.

Deputy Belton must allow the Minister to make his statement.

They interrupt the Minister every time they get a chance. We are too able for them.

I was explaining the delicate instrument which democracy has devised for the control of public finance and for the regulation of taxation. We have often been accused of not having sufficient regard for the requirements of the Constitution, but, so long as it remains there, the Seanad is a vital part of the Oireachtas. It has, in the matter of Finance Bills, rights which are reserved to it by the Constitution. Never since the State was established has the Seanad been given less than the full constitutional requirement of 21 days to consider the principal Finance Bill of the year. That, Sir, explains the urgency of the Bill and is a complete, justification, if we had not any other, for the motion which the House is now asked to consider. Deputy O'Sullivan stated that time should be spent on the consideration of the Budget. With that I agree. When we were in Opposition we con tended for that principle. We discussed the Finance Bills of our predecessors with care, with acuteness, with intelligence, and, in the words of the late President of the Executive Council, the present leader of the Opposition, we did much business in a shorter time, with a more pithy discussion.

I wonder could the Minister hurry now, Sir, as the thing is so urgent?

He does not know how to discuss it.

I listened with patience to the Deputy.

You did, reading a book.

I propose to ask him to extend the same courtesy to me.

We got a lot of courtesy.

On the Second Stage and the Committee Stage of the Finance Bill of 1928, seven hours and 40 minutes were taken by the Opposition; in 1929, 15 hours and five minutes were taken; in 1930, ten hours and 25 minutes were taken; in 1931, nine hours and 45 minutes. That criticism was so effective that it recommended itself to the good sense of the people, as was witnessed by the fact that the then Government which was being criticised is now in Opposition and the Opposition which was then criticising the finance proposals of the then Government is now the Government. The fact that we were able to do that and at the same time, with every care for the preservation of democratic principles, did not waste a moment of Parliamentary time is, we think, a justifiable reason for resenting the spectacle which we have witnessed here, not merely on the Finance Bill of 1935, but, as the country saw, on the Finance Bill of 1932.

As I said yesterday, when the change of Government did take place the time which was spent on these measures jumped up to 34 hours and 10 minutes on the Second Stage and the Committee Stage of the Finance Bill of 1932. Then there was the General Election, and the Opposition, a little chastened, wasted much less time in discussing the Finance Bill of 1933, because they spent only 19 hours and 10 minutes. Then again, in 1934, after the results of the local elections of that year, they occupied only 16½ hours. This year, on the Second Stage and the Committee Stage of this Bill, they have taken 41 hours and 45. minutes, much longer, in fact, than they occupied in the year 1932.

Now with the particulars which I have given of the time taken on other Bills in other years before them. I think there is no person in the Opposition who would be prepared to contend and, even if he does contend, can substantiate the statement, that insufficient time has been given to the Opposition to consider the details of this measure. Let us see how that time has been spent. The debate on the Committee Stage of this Bill began at 6 p.m. on 2nd July. Before the House adjourned at 10.30 that evening no less than 18 sections of this Finance Bill had been disposed of, and in regard to every one of those sections upon which there was a pertinent discussion and in connection with which the Opposition made any worth-while point, I participated in the debate and justified the proposals of the Government to the satisfaction of this House. Then on Section 18 a change took place. The Opposition had an amendment down to that section. The amendment stood in the name of Deputy Dillon and it read as follows: "To insert after the word ‘tea' the following words: ‘the invoiced price of which at the port of importation does not exceed one shilling and sixpence per lb.'"

Would the Minister read that again?

I am sorry. I think that is a misreport.

The Minister can deal with it on Report.

I propose to deal with it now, because it is a very important matter.

It refers to a tea tax.

The words are "does not exceed 1/6 per lb."

Is the Minister quoting the Deputy's exact words?

Yes, I have taken it from the Order Paper.

From what? Would the Minister kindly read it again?

"After the word ‘tea' to insert the following words: ‘the invoiced price of which at the port of importation does not exceed one shilling and sixpence per pound'." The name to the amendment is that of Deputy James M. Dillon, and the amendment was to be made in line 38 of sub-section (1). Now, Sir, the Opposition have said that they have not had time to consider this Bill: that they have not had time to criticise intelligently the proposals contained in the Bill. The resolution which Deputy Dillon sought to amend in this way was adopted by the House early in May. The Finance Bill embodies the terms of the Resolutions which, of course, were also printed and circulated to the House and, therefore, could be studied by all Deputies, including those who have taken upon themselves the responsibility of opposing the proposals of the Government in regard to this and other matters. That Bill was introduced in May and could have been studied by all Deputies at their convenience. The Second Reading of the Bill was taken on the 12th, 13th, 14th and 18th June, and the Deputies opposite, therefore, had ample time to weigh well their words and to express exactly their intentions. This Opposition, however, which professes to participate intelligently in the business of this House and purports to be the watch-dogs of the people in regard to matters of taxation, had to make this admission through the mouth of Deputy Morrissey:

"There is an obvious mistake in this amendment. I do not propose to move it, Sir, but I shall move amendments, with the object which was intended to be achieved by this amendment, on the Report Stage."

Who was responsible for the mistake?

I am quoting from the Official Debates, column 1508, Volume 57.

Who was responsible for the mistake?

I think it was Deputy Dillon who was responsible for the mistake.

You think?

Yes. As a matter of fact, I am reasonably certain it was Deputy Dillon who was responsible for the mistake. I have never——

On a point of order, Sir, will you accept from me a motion: "That the question be now put," on the grounds that the Minister for Finance is now covering utterly unnecessary ground in order to avoid dealing on Report Stage with the subject matter he is purporting to discuss now?

I am accepting the motion: "That the question be now put."

Question—"That the question be now put"—put and declared carried.
Main question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 58; Níl, 39.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neal.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Boland, Patrick.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Concannon, Helena.
  • Cooney, Eamonn.
  • Corbett, Edmona.
  • Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
  • Crowley, Timothy.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • Doherty, Hugh.
  • Donnelly, Eamon.
  • Dowdall, Thomas P.
  • Everett, James.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Gibbons, Seán.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Hales, Thomas.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
  • Keely, Séamus P.
  • Kehoe, Patrick.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Kilroy, Michael.
  • Kissane, Eamonn.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • Lynch, James B.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • Maguire, Conor Alexander.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
  • Norton, William.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
  • O'Doherty, Joseph.
  • O'Dowd, Patrick.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Fattison, James P.
  • Pearse, Margaret Mary.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick Joseph.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Victory, James.
  • Walsh, Richard.

Níl

  • Alton, Ernest Henry.
  • Beckett, James Walter.
  • Belton, Patrick.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Bourke, Séamus.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Broderick, William Joseph.
  • Burke, James Michael.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • Keating, John.
  • Lavery, Cecil.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McGovern, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Morrisroe, James.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Costello, John Aloysius.
  • Daly, Patrick.
  • Desmond, William.
  • Dockrell, Henry Morgan.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Esmonde, Osmond Grattan.
  • Fitzgerald, Desmond.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • O'Mahony, The.
  • O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Redmond, Bridget Mary.
  • Rice, Vincent.
  • Rogers, Patrick James.
  • Thrift, William Edward.
  • Wall, Nicholas.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Little and Smith; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Bennett.
Question declared carried.
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