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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 16 Jul 1935

Vol. 58 No. 5

Rates on Agricultural Land (Relief) (No. 2) Bill—Money Resolution. - Diseases of Animals Bill, 1935—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. Under the Diseases of Animals Act, 1894, the Minister for Agriculture is empowered to deal directly with four specified diseases of animals, namely, cattle plague, pleuro - pneumonia, foot - and - mouth disease, and swine-fever. Under the present Bill it is proposed to extend the power of the Minister so as to enable him to deal with diseases other than these four diseases. As regards the four diseases mentioned, I am glad to be in a position to say they have practically been eliminated and that the country is free from them. Pleuropneumonia has disappeared practically and so has cattle plague. The last outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in this country occurred in 1931, in the Six-County area, and we have been lucky enough to escape foot-and-mouth disease in the Saorstát area since 1928. Even swine-fever, which was rather a common disease here in former days, has become unknown, at least for the last 12 months. In 1932 we had 42 cases of swine-fever; in 1933 we had 97 cases; in 1934 we had 26 cases, and we have had none since. I do not know to what exactly the improvement is due. Some claim that it is due to a great extent to the stoppage of the import of foreign bacon, while others claim that it is due to the enforcement of the boiling order for offals and so on, which has been enforced in the City of Dublin for some time, as it was in the vicinity of the City of Dublin that these cases usually occurred. The position is that, under the 1894 Act, any diseases of animals, other than the four diseases specified, have to be dealt with by the local authorities.

It is proposed in this Bill to give the Minister for Agriculture power to deal directly with any diseases that he may think fit. The object of the Bill is to deal with tuberculosis in cattle. Under the scheme, which has been mentioned on several occasions, for the disposal of old cows at Roscrea factory, we hope to get rid of all the useless and old cows in the country for conversion into meat meal, but the Roscrea factory is not for the purpose of taking tuberculous cows, although possibly some tuberculous cows may be sent there. It is proposed then to follow up the clearing of county by county for Roscrea by a campaign for the elimination of tuberculosis in cows as far as possible, and it is felt that this can only be done effectively if it is administered from the central authority. The administration of the Bovine Tuberculosis Order by local authorities cannot be regarded as satisfactory. In the year ended 31st March last the number of animals slaughtered under the Order was 3,672, and that would mean only about 0.3 per cent. of the number of cows in the country, which is undoubtedly much lower than the number of cows in that could be detected as suffering from tuberculosis, and an attempt made to eliminate the disease. To give an idea of the working of this scheme in the year referred to, that is, the year ended 31st March last, I may say that the number of animals slaughtered in one county was 751, in another county 718, while in another it was six. It is quite plain, therefore, that there are certain local authorities much more alive to the danger of tuberculosis in cattle than others, and that no uniform attempt has been made to stamp out the disease.

If this power is given by the Dáil it is proposed to make Orders from time to time taking over the administration of the elimination of bovine tuberculosis in any particular county for a particular period, and afterwards perhaps handing back that power to the local authority to deal with. It will mean of course that officers of the Department will have to take over administration of the Act wherever an Order is made. I may also mention that it is proposed to widen the scope of the existing Bovine Tuberculosis Order. The present Order deals with any cow which is or appears to be suffering from tuberculosis of the udder, indurated udder or other chronic diseases of the udder; any bovine animal which is or appears to be suffering from tubercular emaciation, or any bovine animal which is suffering from a chronic cough, and showing definite clinical signs of tuberculosis. The new Order which it is proposed to bring into operation shortly will include the aged cow which is or appears to be suffering from tuberculosis in any form, and a bovine animal which is or appears to be suffering from open tuberculosis, that is tuberculosis with a shedding of tubercle bacilli in any of the discharges of the animal. The new Order will also, of course, include cows which are suspected of giving tuberculous milk. If we reach the very ideal position of having tubercle free herds in this country we shall be in a position to help that movement very much by taking the administration of this Act into central hands.

Another question that may perhaps arise is: "How do the veterinary surgeons who are at present employed by the local authority stand under this Act"? Their position is being safeguarded. If they are taken over by the Department under this Bill they will be paid on a pro rata or per case basis, and, if the Department hands back the work again to the local authority to administer, the veterinary surgeon will of course go back to where he left off. The compensation that will be paid for any animals slaughtered under the central administration of the Order will be paid for entirely by the State. At present the local authority pays half the compensation, but if this administration is now taken over by the central authority, and if it is pushed vigorously, the amount to be paid by the local authority under the present basis might be very heavy. It has been suggested, therefore, that the central authority should pay the whole cost while they are administering this Act.

Does the Minister intend to take over the administration only in certain counties?

Dr. Ryan

Yes.

And at the same time to pay the full cost in those counties where he takes over?

Dr. Ryan

We will gradually cover them all.

Does the Minister not know very well that it is unlikely that any county council will now spend money in that direction, when it sees its neighbour, who neglected to take any steps at all in the matter, getting the whole sum paid by the central authority? Take a county in respect of which £700 has been paid in compensation. Let the Minister put himself into the position of the chairman of that county council. I would expect that to-morrow morning he would assemble his veterinary surgeons before him and say: "Well, £700 was spent last year on that service. The Government is going to take it over in the places where no attention has been paid to it; consequently, we can save that £700 in the coming year." That is a situation to which I think the Minister must not have adverted. I think there is general agreement upon the desire to eliminate disease in our live stock, and that there ought to be active co-operation in getting that work done, but I wonder what will be the position of a county council which has, up to this, been active in having disease exterminated, and now sees this action on the part of the Department of Agriculture in respect of counties in which no activity has taken place. It is obvious that from the moment of the introduction of this Bill nothing is going to be done in those counties. I do not know whether the Minister has made any arrangement to deal with the situation. I would suggest to the Minister that what he ought to do is to amend the Bill on Committee Stage in regard to putting the whole cost of the compensation on the central authority. Otherwise, it is exceeding unlikely that the counties which have been spending money will continue to do so. It may be that there are men on certain county councils who are sufficiently public-spirited to argue that that service ought to be continued, even if it be expensive, but when the rates are increasing, when the difficulty of collecting them is getting more and more pronounced, when they see State aid coming in to the county councils or local authorities who have been slack, this is certainly not the time in which one could expect the same activities on the part of those councils who wish to eliminate disease as existed heretofore.

I should like to ask the Minister if he intends to make an Order specifying the diseases that he is going to deal with? He means the Act to deal with any disease, and, as I understand it, takes power to issue an Order which will enable him to direct the slaughter of cattle suffering from any disease, and once he issues an Order like that, it has statutory authority and does not come before any other approving body. Do I understand that Orders will be issued and that it is his intention to confine those Orders to the diseases that he mentioned, those diseases being specified in the Orders that will be issued?

I understand from the Minister that there are two classes of cattle which he will be entitled to deal with under this Bill, but I must say that, so far as I am concerned, I consider that the explanation which the Minister has given is rather vague. He intends to deal with tuberculous cows, and he also intends to deal with aged cows, but he did not say what the machinery really is for dealing with the two specifie cases. Everybody is agreed that it would be a good thing for the country not to have tubercular cattle, but the Minister has not given us the information we have asked as to really what machinery he intends to use in connection with this Bill. I understand from him that he would not deal with the whole country at the present time—that he intends to deal with it county by county. On that matter I would like more information, and I hope it will be forthcoming before we are asked to pass the Second Reading.

Dr. Ryan

I may not have been very clear. Perhaps I was confusing the Deputy when I said that old and uneconomic cows would be taken to Roscrea for conversion into meat meal. It was considered better to have that done at first so that we would only have tubercular cows to deal with when we were taking the matter county by county. It is cheaper to take the cows through taking the counties one by one. Then when we have done this we can clear out the tubercular cows.

How long does the Minister think it will take?

Dr. Ryan

Perhaps one and a half years. It may be more; I am not sure. It is a matter as to how quickly Roscrea will deal with the uneconomic cows. When Roscrea is working to full capacity it may be able to take 65,000 cows a year. Then we will follow with this Tuberculosis Order. First the Order must be made stating that such a disease is taken into central control. The Order will then operate for that particular disease and for no other. In answer to the objection raised by Deputy Cosgrave, I want to say that I do not think there is any great danger of what Deputy Cosgrave points out because the intention is to go for County Kerry at first. Kerry is the first county that is being cleared up for Roscrea. When that is done we can go on to Kerry with this Tuberculosis Order. We do not expect to take more than two or three counties at a time and we can then hand it back to the county councils. We will deal that way with each county council. I do not think there is any great danger of any trouble arising in that way in the other counties.

Two months for one county. There are Twenty-Six counties.

Dr. Ryan

Yes, but we may do four or five counties at a time and these will take two or three months, perhaps. The organisation required will be very big. It was considered in the beginning that we should do it that way— that we would go out and clear up the whole country. It would require a very big staff to be recruited apart, of course, from the administrative staff which it will be easy to get. I think it would be difficult to get the number of veterinary surgeons required to do the whole country at one time but if we do only two or three counties at a time it will be possible. I think that it is the best way under the circumstances.

Do I understand from the Minister that it is his intention first to deal with the uneconomic cows before he goes on to the tubercular cows?

Dr. Ryan

Yes. It is not intended that the tubercular cows will go to the factory at Roscrea. We have not guaranteed that no tubercular cows will go to the factory.

It would be much better to deal with the tubercular cows first.

That was what struck me too—to clear out the tubercular cows first rather than to deal with the uneconomic cows.

You could pay the compensation, and it would pay in the long run to clear them out.

Dr. Ryan

The expense would be too big; I would be afraid to say what it would cost to deal with the tubercular cows.

Do I understand that the first Order under this Amending Bill gives the Minister power to deal with any disease and that cattle suffering from disease (a) will be slaughtered?

Dr. Ryan

No, that does not come under this Bill at all.

Does it not deal with the uneconomic cows?

Dr. Ryan

No. I said we brought in this Bill so that we could follow up the Roscrea clearances. That is the scheme. You will remember under a recent Act there was a section which gave the Minister power to publish a scheme to deal with this. That was a scheme under the Slaughter of Cattle and Sheep Act. I think that will operate in about a week's time.

Has the Minister not made any estimate as to what this will cost?

Dealing with the problem of the tubercular cow will take one and a half years. It will be one and a half years before any tubercular cow in my district will be taken for slaughter. It seems to me that this Bill does not remedy the situation with which the Minister wanted to deal.

I asked the Minister a question as to his estimate of the cost of the scheme.

Dr. Ryan

I am afraid I could not give the total cost. Naturally, we do not know what it will cost until we get the Act working. This is based on four veterinary surgeons who would be able to operate in one large county.

I was not referring to them, but to the figure for compensation for the cows.

Dr. Ryan

Does the Deputy mean the compensation we will pay for each cow?

Dr. Ryan

I am afraid I am not in the position to give the total. It is very difficult to estimate that.

Has there been any estimate of the number of tubercular cows in the country?

Dr. Ryan

We have an estimate for a few districts only. We got some districts done.

What is the estimate for those districts?

Dr. Ryan

That is a question I would not like to answer here.

It is surprising to see the Minister bring in a Bill here without being in a position to give an estimate to the House.

Dr. Ryan

If I saw the Deputy afterwards I could explain it to him.

I find it hard to understand from the estimates I have heard the number of cattle suffering from tuberculosis in this country.

They had better be got rid of, anyway.

Dr. Ryan

Giving a figure now may have the effect of creating a false impression as to the number of tubercular cattle in the country.

It has cost in some up-to-date counties £700 a year.

Dr. Ryan

About £4,000 at present.

The figure of £100,000 would perhaps be an extravagant estimate.

Dr. Ryan

It is as near as you could go to it, but it is not very carefully drawn.

There is another point——

The Minister was called upon to conclude.

I think we are entitled to ask him a question on the matter.

Within reason —one more question.

Did the Minister say who would pay the veterinary surgeons?

Dr. Ryan

They will.

Well, then, the veterinary surgeons will be strolling around to the farmers' houses.

Dr. Ryan

The farmer will not suffer. He gets more than the value of the animal.

What price will you pay for them?

Dr. Ryan

It would be very difficult to give a figure.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 23rd July, 1935.
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