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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 28 Nov 1935

Vol. 59 No. 10

Imposition of Duties (Confirmation of Orders) (No. 2) Bill, 1935—Committee Stage.

Sections 1 and 2 agreed to.
SCHEDULE.

Ref. No.

Number and Year in the Statutory Rules and Orders

Short Title

General Subject Matter

1

No. 91 of 1935.

Emergency Imposition of Duties (No. 68) Order, 1935.

Extension of the duty on butter and dried or powdered milk; imposition of duty on cheese.

2

No. 404 of 1935.

Emergency Imposition of Duties (No. 72) Order, 1935.

Imposition of duty on almonds.

3

No. 405 of 1935.

Emergency Imposition of Duties (No. 73) Order, 1935

Imposition of duty on certain vitreous-enamelled hollowware.

4

No. 406 of 1935.

Emergency Imposition of Duties (No. 74) Order, 1935

Variation of the duty on paper felt and certain floor coverings.

5

No. 407 of 1935.

Emergency Imposition of Duties (No. 75) Order,

Amendment of the duty on grass seed.

6

No. 543 of 1935.

Emergency Imposition of Duties (No. 76) Order, 1935.

Amendment of the duty on cotton thread, cotton plyyarn, etc.

7

No. 544 of 1935.

Emergency Imposition of Duties (No. 77) Order, 1935.

Amendment and extension of the duty on certain sports requisites.

8

No. 571 of 1935.

Emergency Imposition of Duties (No. 80) Order, 1935.

Amendment of the duty on leather. etc.

9

No. 576 of 1935.

Emergency Imposition of Duties (No. 81) Order, 1935.

Imposition of duty on certain springs, axles, windscreens, etc.

10

No. 630 of 1935.

Emergency Imposition of Duties (No. 86) Order, 1935.

Amendment of the Emergency Imposition of Duties (No. 68) Order, 1935, in relation to the duty on cheese.

I move amendment No. 1:—

To delete Reference No. 2 and all references thereto in columns Nos. 2, 3 and 4.

The proposal is to delete from the Schedule the reference to the imposition of a duty on almonds. The Minister for Industry and Commerce has told us that the duty which was here imposed upon almonds processed to a certain degree was imposed for the purpose of increasing industrial production, but he does not know what industrial employment it is going to give here; he does not know what wages are going to be paid; and so far as he has taken the House into his confidence, he does not know under what conditions that employment is going to be given. He does not know the quantity or the value of these things imported in the past and he has made no attempt to give us any information with regard to that. He tells us that since the issue of the Order he has issued licences and that, in one instance, he issued a licence allowing a half ton of dutiable almonds, which at the date of the imposition of the Order were in port, in without payment of duty.

He told us that, in another instance, he recommended the issue of a licence in respect of 20 tons of these almonds on which further processes were to be carried out. But although he has apparently been in negotiation with some particular firm asking for the imposition of this duty of 33? per cent., and although apparently that firm has approached him since and got from him a licence to import 20 tons of these dutiable almonds, he nevertheless refuses to give any information with regard to the new industry which is going to be developed here. The position apparently is that anybody who wants a tariff is able to go to the Minister for Industry and Commerce, either by the front or the back door, and say: "Give us a tariff; be a pal and give us a tariff," and they get it if they talk in the proper coaxing tone. And they get it without any advertence to the rise in the cost of living brought about by that particular tariff, or the tremendous rise in the cost of living due to the cumulative effects of these tariffs.

Someone has gone to the Minister in this particular way. He has discussed the development of the new industry here and he has given a tariff of 33? per cent. on these things. This House is entitled to know something of the proposals for the setting up of the new industry here; something of the amount of capital involved in it; whether it is one or two men, one or two women, or one or two children who are going to be employed in connection with the industry; whether in the meantime the cost of these things has gone up substantially; and what is the general policy of the Minister with regard to the licences which he is apparently issuing.

The Minister gives us here, say, quarter after quarter, a whole list of these new duties, and I think it is time he should turn over a new leaf and give the House some information that he must have arising out of the discussions that have gone on between himself and the Department and the parties looking for this particular tariff. He should not expect the House to impose substantial tariffs like these, even though on small matters, which are very definitely raising the cost of living all around and affecting, in this particular case, confectioners and people like that, and simply tell the House that this will lead to increased industrial production, that everything is all right, that there will be increased wages and employment, and that, after all, it is only a small matter and a small tariff. That is no way to treat the House. The Minister should turn over a new leaf and tell us something about the Orders and, on this one particularly, what are the general circumstances in which the industry will be set up and what employment it will give.

The Order which Deputy Mulcahy seeks to excise from this Bill has attached to it a licensing provision. I want to support Deputy Mulcahy's amendment, because I object most strenuously to any discretion being left in the hands of the Minister to issue a licence for the free importation of any dutiable merchandise to any citizen of the State so long as the present state of affairs continues to obtain. It is impossible for anyone to forecast how the Minister will use this licensing power under this Order without examining how he has used other licensing powers he got under similar Orders made at an earlier date. I have no hesitation in saying that the licensing system, as at present obtaining in this country, is a poisonous scandal.

On a point of order. I would be glad, Sir, if you would indicate what subjects can be discussed on this amendment?

The matters relevant to this amendment are the matters covered by the duty imposed. While limited reference to licences in general might have been relevant on the Second Stage, on the Committee Stage discussion is confined to the amendment and the specific duty before the Committee.

On the Second Stage of this Bill, we explained at some length that, in view of the fact that the Bill contained a long string of Orders, it was necessary to deal with each Order on its merits by way of amendment. The Minister indicated his acceptance of that view. I am objecting to this Order because it has attached to it a licensing provision. I say that no licensing discretion should be put into the hands of the Minister. I point out to you, Sir, that I cannot direct the attention of the House to the reasons why that discretion should be withheld from the Minister unless I show the House how the Minister has used similar licensing powers on previous occasions. An Order identical to this was made in respect of china and it had a licensing provision.

On a point of order. I should like, Sir, to be informed if the Deputy will be in order in discussing the duty on china.

I do not intend to discuss the duty on china. It is most disorderly for the Minister to intervene with remarks of that kind. I do not intend to discuss the duty on china.

The Minister is entitled to ask for a ruling.

He has no right to put words into my mouth. I have no intention of referring to the duty on china. What I do say is that in regard to a licence to admit china free of duty, exactly identical with the licence in this Order to admit almonds, the Minister calmly turned round and let it be known to all dealers in china that unless they got a certificate from a citizen of this State, by the name of Hoffman, residing in Middle Abbey Street, they would not get any licence to import china. If any trader had a quarrel with Mr. Hoffman——

The Deputy is now discussing a licence for china, which does not come under any of these duties.

I am discussing the administration of licences. If the Minister gets this power in connection with almonds he may tell a trader in this country, "You have to get a certificate from so-and-so living in Poolbeg Street, before I will issue a licence." I say that is monstrous. If the Minister gets a discretion from this House, the relationship should be between the individual citizen and the Minister who represents Oireachtas Eireann. That the Minister should arbitrarily bring in an ordinary private citizen and announce that he will not give a licence except on the certificate of a citizen, who has no official standing whatever, is, to my mind——

I made no such announcement concerning any matter contained in this Bill.

Is it the case that only one person is getting a licence to import these?

If I am allowed I will explain——

If the Minister will keep his mouth shut——

I think I am entitled to speak.

The Minister does not like and will not like what I am going to say and he is beginning to squeal.

I am prepared to deal with any matter——

I will not give way unless the Minister raises a point of order.

On a point of order. I am prepared to deal with any matter arising out of this Bill. If other matters, not dealt with in this Bill, are raised, I think I should have notice in advance. If they are raised, and you, Sir, are prepared to allow them to be discussed, I am prepared to deal with them. But this practice of bringing in extraneous matters irrelevant to the motion under discussion is most unfair and is designed to prevent matters being discussed properly.

As I say, this licensing power was used by the Minister in the way I have described. I regard that as a grossly improper method of handling licensing provisions. I assert that an exactly similar Order to this was issued in connection with cotton sheeting and shirting and the Minister issued a licence for the importation of these articles to a certain merchant and refused licences to others. I assert that he purported to impose a condition that these things would be imported free of duty only where they were used for manufacturing purposes, for conversion into shirts and ready-made articles. I assert that these articles were imported free of duty under a licence issued by the Minister and freely sold up and down the country. That leads me to this conclusion: that this licensing system must stop unless the Minister will open a register in the Department in which the licences which he proposes to issue under this Almonds Order, and all other Orders, will be printed for perusal by authorised persons.

On a point of order. Is the licensing system, or an amendment of the system, under discussion or not?

The licensing system, as such, is not under discussion.

I am referring to the licensing power the Minister has under the Almonds Order which Deputy Mulcahy proposes to delete. I say this should be deleted unless——

Will the Deputy indicate where in this Bill the question of licences is referred to?

This Bill purports to make permanent Emergency Imposition of Duties (No. 72) Order, 1935, and Section 4 of which reads as follows:—

"Whenever the Minister for Finance, after consultation with the Minister for Industry and Commerce, so thinks proper, the Revenue Commissioners may by licence authorise any particular person, subject to compliance with such conditions as they may think fit to impose, to import without payment of the duty imposed by this Order any articles chargeable with such duty either as the Revenue Commissioners shall think proper, without limit as to time or quantity or either of them or within a specified time or in a specified quantity."

I say that that power should not be afforded to the Minister for Industry and Commerce unless and until a register is opened in his Department in which particulars of every licence to be issued shall be entered, and this register should be open to perusal by any person on paying a nominal fee. I suggest a nominal fee in order to avoid persons making a nuisance of themselves by calling, out of curiosity, to see this register. I therefore suggest that no licensing power should vest in the Minister for Industry and Commerce unless he is prepared to implement the undertaking given by the Minister for Finance in these cases that if the Minister for Industry and Commerce issues a licence to any citizen to import almonds, it shall thereupon be open to any other citizen to go to him and demand as a right a similar licence. The House will readily understand that such a proposal could not operate unless such a register were open, a register where every citizen would be able to find out the details of every licence issued. Let it not be said or suggested that the proposal I now make is a revolutionary one or that it is in any way calculated to discredit the Government. An exactly similar proposal has been made by the Federation of Industries in this country, and it has been pointed out that the issuing of such licences should be entered on a register which would be open to the public.

I should like to know whether that licensing provision is in the Order or in an Act?

It is in the Order.

It is omitted from some of the Orders, but it is embodied in others, including this.

This is the Order made under the Imposition of Duties Act.

Referring to almonds?

Some of these Orders contain no licensing provision. Others do. This particular Order contains Section 4 where there is specifically set out, for the purposes of this Order, a provision to empower the Minister to admit by licence. I want that power used in this State in such a way as not to create a public scandal and to give rise to the abuses that are existing at the present time. I want the equal and just administration of the law as between citizens. I want each citizen to have the same rights against the Government as his neighbour. I object most emphatically to one merchant or to one manufacturer getting advantages by licence which are denied to his competitors. The Minister may say that these licences are granted without any reference whatever to the personal qualities of the individual applicants. I may bring forward cases, as I have done in this House, which on the prima facie evidence that was available to the ordinary Deputy, appear to be grossly improper. I am quite satisfied that some of the licences that have been issued cannot be defended either as the result of carelessness or as the result of political pressure whereby certain individuals are receiving preference over their neighbours. There is one way to make an end of that disquiet and of any possibility of improper procedure in this licensing business, and that is to open a register in which every licence under this Order will be set out in full with the conditions and particulars advertent thereto.

I submit again that this general question cannot be raised upon an amendment dealing with an Order which has reference to the duty on almonds.

I have before me "Statutory Rules and Orders, 1935. No. 404." That does contain powers to issue licences. The Deputy is entitled to object to a licence on almonds, but not to make a general case against licences. It is obvious that if a general case were made on one Order it would be equally applicable to all, and that it would raise many irrelevant cases of which the Minister would not have notice so as to be in a position to answer.

I object to the Minister being in a position to issue licences for the free importation of almonds to one citizen without every other citizen being in the position to examine the register that should be kept—every other citizen should be in a position to claim as a right an identical licence to import almonds without duty. I say that information cannot be made available to the citizens of the State unless and until a register is opened and kept in which the Minister is obliged by statute to give particulars of every licence issued for the free importation of almonds. When that time comes it will no longer be open to anybody to say that there is any preference, concealment or favouritism in the granting of licences to import almonds free of duty. He will have his particulars there before him; any Deputy of this House can have access to this register and ascertain what the facts are. Concealment and secrecy in matters involving the discretion of the Minister are calculated to arouse public distrust and eventually to promote corruption in the public services. But let the light shine on such transactions and there can be no undesirable results. That will ensure that no use will be made of the powers conferred upon the Minister by this measure that the House did not intend him to make.

The imposition of a duty on almonds was decided upon because it seemed to the Government that there was no good reason why the processing of almonds should not be done in this country. That is the only case I can make for it. Deputy Mulcahy and apparently the members of his Party seem to think that the Government is under an obligation to apologise for or to make lengthy explanations of its design to promote industry here. On the contrary, it is the Deputy and his Party who should make a case for the prevention of the promotion of industry here. Of course the tactics of the Deputy and his Party are concerned with slandering or misrepresenting the position of those engaged in industry. He asserted that in consequence of this duty the price of these commodities has gone up in the country——

He has no authority for that assertion.

Does the Minister deny it?

I deny it emphatically, and the Deputy can easily find out whether his assertion or mine is correct.

I state emphatically that the prices have gone up. The Minister does not know what is happening.

The Deputy is misinformed.

The Deputy can find out from a member of his own Party who is a proprietor of this company, and he will then find that his assertion is not correct.

I know that the price of almonds has gone up on the public throughout the country.

And I say that is not so. He also said that two girls were employed at this business.

I did not say that two girls were employed. I asked were as many as two girls employed.

That is the mean Cumann na nGaedheal insinuation. He asserted that this industry meant the employment of a couple of girls. Why does he think he will serve his Party by taking up that attitude in relation to Irish industrial development? When they published their programme they had grand and high-sounding phrases about developing Irish industry, while here in the Dáil they are doing their utmost——

Blatherskite.

But it is very true.

We have had enough of blatherskite from Deputy Dillon and his Party. At the moment I am informed that we have 25 people employed in this industry.

Where are they employed?

In Dublin.

Are they men, women or children?

There is a licensing provision attached to this measure as there has been attached to a number of other Orders. There is no complaint as to the manner in which these licensing provisions are operated. It is true that persons may feel that they should have got licences when licences were refused them, or they may feel that they should have received licences for larger quantities, but no complaint has been made from any responsible quarter that the power in respect to the issuing of licences has been abused for the purpose of putting one individual, or a group of individuals, in an advantageous position as compared with others. That type of allegation has been confined to Deputy Dillon, and Deputy Dillon never made that sort of allegation except in a manner and in circumstances which rendered it impossible to answer him effectively. He always made it irrelevantly; he always made the allegation without giving notice of his intention to do so; he always made it when he was quite certain that the Minister for Industry and Commerce or the Minister for Finance was not likely to be supplied with the information definitely to refute his allegation.

Fortunately, he is wrong; he miscalculated on this occasion. He said that no licence would be issued for the importation of china until a person in Middle Abbey Street named Hoffman was approached for the issue of a certificate, in which circumstances that person was to get a licence. That statement is not true. In order that Deputies may see the malice that lies behind it, I might mention that the Mr. Hoffman in question is a Director of the Arklow Pottery Company, the Chairman of which is Senator O'Rourke, and the Secretary, Mr. Heffernan, formerly Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. It is quite true that when the Department of Industry and Commerce receives a request for a licence to import china, we inquire from the company if they are in a position to supply the goods, the licence for which is asked. On receiving information from the company to the effect that the goods cannot be supplied from Irish sources, then a licence is issued. I am quite certain that Deputy Dillon knew that; it was in his power to get that knowledge and he should have made the very limited inquiries that it would be necessary for him to make before coming here with his allegations about corruption and dishonesty and preferential treatment for individuals.

Of course Deputy Dillon is not capable of acting fairly in these matters. His sole purpose is to try to sling all the mud he can in the hope that some of it will stick. Fortunately, Deputy Dillon has had no success in that direction. Not a single allegation made by him on this or any other matter has given the Government the slightest concern. There was not one of his allegations in respect of which it could not be shown that it was entirely without foundation and that it was known to Deputy Dillon to be without foundation, or at any rate that Deputy Dillon was in a position, if he had made any inquiry in the matter at all, to ascertain the facts. Here he is referring to something, information on which could easily have been ascertained—the facts relating to which could have been ascertained by one telephone message. Deputy Dillon took care not to send that telephone message. But he comes here with his allegations, hoping to get away with them before he is called to order by the Chair and hoping the Minister for Industry and Commerce or the Minister for Finance will be unable to reply to him because the information will not be immediately available.

So far as almonds are concerned, licences are not being issued. Full information was given to the House in connection with the only two licences that were issued. The power to issue those licences was taken for the purpose of ensuring that there would be no inconvenience caused to those who consumed these goods during the period between the imposition of the duty and the commencement of production. As a matter of fact, the firm concerned started production immediately and, consequently, no licences, apart from those designed to meet the immediate situation, the clearance of goods already at the port, were issued. As I have indicated, only two licences were issued and that ends them, unless circumstances should arise to prevent the goods being available from Irish sources, such as might occur if there was a breakdown of plant or any other interruption of production.

The Minister works himself into a lather of indignation and then he proceeds to admit that the allegations I have made are quite true.

I have said nothing of the kind.

He admits that you have to go to Mr. Hoffman, and then he says that Mr. Hoffman is a director of the Arklow Pottery Company—and that takes all the harm out of it. Whether he is a director of the Arklow Pottery Company or of any other concern, I state emphatically that it is a most undesirable system that I or anybody else should have to go, with hat in hand, to Senator O'Rourke, Mr. Hoffman, or the director or chairman of any other company, before I can get a licence.

I am entitled to intervene——

Now, the Minister had better let me proceed.

——on a point of order.

The Minister, on a point of order.

I did not state anything that the Deputy has attributed to me.

Is that a point of order?

A point of explanation.

I stated that a person applying for a licence applies only to the Department. It does not have to go to anybody associated with the Arklow Pottery Company; but the Department make inquiries from the Arklow Pottery Company, or any other source it thinks fit, as to whether internal supplies are available before there is a licence issued.

The Minister is now getting windy because he has discovered that he is found out. Anyone associated with the china trade knows that the Minister is wriggling and wobbling, as he always does.

The Chair is not prepared to hear any more about licences or alleged licences for importing china.

The fact remains that the system of administering licences is anything but desirable. I desire particularly to-day to refer to the licences for the importation of almonds free of duty. This matter has been adverted to not only by me and every responsible person in the trade in the country, but by the Federation of Irish Industries which passed a resolution calling on the Minister to set up a register in connection with the issuing of licences for almonds and kindred products. They asked that a register be set up in which licences for the free importation of almonds would be regulated. Does the Minister deny it? He knows he cannot, because the representations have been made to him from every source. I make a further representation to-day. I shall take advantage of opportunities whenever they arise to direct the attention of the House to the abuses that exist under licensing provisions similar to the abuse which threatens to arise from the licensing provisions to import almonds free of duty. The Minister may have this notice, that every time he comes before the House with proposals to get licensing provisions, all the discreditable activities of his Department in connection with the issuing of licences will be raised and fully exposed——

——if in order, on the Second Stage of the Bill.

When the Minister was trying to side-step a discussion on almonds, he said he was prepared to deal with the whole question of this new industry. But the Minister has done nothing of the sort. Again I tell him that he and his Department must have had certain discussions with people who were proposing to set up the industry of crushing, preparing and processing almonds, when he gave them the duty of 33? per cent., and he must have had some picture in his mind as to what kind of industry it was going to be, how many persons would be employed, and the ultimate extent of the industry. He must have ascertained at some time the total quantity of unprocessed almonds that were going to be dealt with. The Order was issued on 6th September, no doubt after a considerable amount of discussion and inquiry. Two months afterwards, on the 31st October, the Minister, replying to a Parliamentary question asking him how much increased employment would be given as a result of this, said that the new industry about to be established as a result of the imposition of the duty would create new employment, the extent of which he was not then in a position to state. He tells us now in an outburst of candour that 25 people are employed in this industry. It is a very interesting thing that that statement should be made, particularly in the same breath as that in which he tells us there was no increase in the price to the people in the country using almonds. The Minister has told us nothing at all about the industry except that 25 persons are employed and that the price of almonds has not gone up. Is that all he is prepared to tell us? From one point of view, I think it is enough. We can understand the attitude of the Minister on this matter.

The Deputy has not given us any reason as to why the duty should not be imposed.

Would the Minister say what are the objections to the establishment of such a register as Deputy Dillon suggests?

The objection certainly is to giving information to anybody concerning the volume of business done by private firms.

Question put: "That Reference No. 2 and all references thereto stand part of the Schedule."
The Committee divided: Tí, 60; Níl, 35.

Tá.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Carty, Frank.
  • Cleary, Mícheál.
  • Concannon, Helena.
  • Cooney, Eamonn.
  • Corbett, Edmond.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Corkery, Daniel.
  • Crowley, Timothy.
  • Daly, Denis.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Geoghegan, James.
  • Gibbons, Seán.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Hales, Thomas.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Keely, Séamus P.
  • Keboe, Patrick.
  • Kelly, James Patrick.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kilroy, Michael.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • Lynch, James B.
  • MacDermot, Frank.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán
  • Maguire, Conor Alexander.
  • Moane, Edward.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Murphy, Patrick Stephen.
  • Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
  • O'Dowd, Patrick.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Pearse, Margaret Mary.
  • Rice, Edward.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick Joseph.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
  • Walsh, Richard.

Níl.

  • Anthony, Richard.
  • Bourke, Séamus.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Broderick, William Joseph.
  • Burke, James Michael.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Daly, Patrick.
  • Davis, Michael.
  • Desmond, William.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry Morgan.
  • Dolan, James Nicholas.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Haslett, Alexander.
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • Keating, John.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGovern, Patrick.
  • McGuire, James Ivan.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Morrisroe, James.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, James Edward.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Redmond, Bridget Mary.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Rogers, Patrick James.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Little and Smith; Níl: Deputies Doyle and O'Leary.
Question declared carried.

I move amendment No. 2:—

To delete Reference No. 3 and all references thereto in columns Nos. 2, 3 and 4.

Under the Emergency Imposition of Duty Order No. 73 the Minister proposes to put and has put a tax of 60 per cent. on the ordinary enamelled saucepan and other articles of the vitreous-enamelled hollow-ware class.

All that the Minister has been able to tell us is that a new industry is going to be established, and that at the present moment he is issuing licences to everybody who asks for a licence; but, in asking the House to confirm this Order and leave him in the position that he can at once or when he thinks suitable make the Order effective, and put a 60 per cent. tariff on such articles of domestic use, we expected him to tell us when this new industry is going to be started, where it is going to be started, what employment it is going to give, what average weekly wages will be paid in it, and the reason why the tax is fixed at 60 per cent. The Minister has already put a tax on other kinds of hollow ware, on tin plate, on wrought galvanised buckets and wrought galvanised articles for domestic use, of 30 per cent. preferential and, in one or two cases only, 45 per cent. Why is the figure fixed at 60 per cent. in this particular instance, and to what extent is the 60 per cent. tax going to become effective in a rise in the price of those articles by 60 per cent? It is important to understand, at the same time, that the figures which are quoted for imports in hollow ware generally, and given by the Minister in reply to Deputy Peadar Doyle on the 30th October, bear out the statements which have been made here from time to time that the purchasing capacity of the people in those ordinary articles is declining. The total imports of hollow ware, not elsewhere specified or included as wrought and enamelled, in the six months period March to August, 1933, 1934 and 1935, declined from £33,975 in the six months in 1933 to £24,570 in the six months in 1934, and to £19,651 in the six months of 1935. Those are articles in regard to which the Minister cannot state that the production in the country is making up in any way for the decline in the imports. I submit to the Minister that it indicates in this particular line, as we have indicated in others, that the purchasing capacity of the people is steadily declining. It is in those circumstances that he puts a 60 per cent. tariff on the ordinary enamelled saucepan, without up to the present or, at any rate, as recently as the 31st October last being able to tell us anything, good, bad or indifferent, about the extent or the nature of the industry which he says is going to be set up as a result of this tariff.

I have often advised Deputy Mulcahy to be satisfied with the accuracy of his statistics, and not to attempt to make deductions from them, because his deductions are always wrong. This tariff has been imposed to establish a new industry in the Saorstát—a rather important industry—the production of enamelled hollow ware. It has been established by a firm called The Irish Enamel Ware, Ltd., which is at present constructing or has just completed construction of a factory at Tralee. The value of the imports of the goods which will be manufactured there has averaged about £40,000 a year. I am not in a position to state the actual number of persons who will be employed in the factory, but the number will not be inconsiderable. At present, the production for stock has just commenced, but sales are not yet taking place. Although licences were being issued freely for the imports of those goods free of duty up to now, the stage has been reached at which we will require persons seeking licences to prove that supplies from within the country are not available. I do not know if it is the intention of the Deputy to push his amendment to a division.

Will the Minister give us a reason for increasing the cost of an enamelled saucepan by 60 per cent?

The answer is that the cost of enamelled saucepans will not be increased by 60 per cent. It has not been, and it will not be. I do not intend to pose as a prophet, but I will make this forecast of events —that, if the Deputies of the Fine Gael Party vote against the imposition of this duty, from this day-week onward they will deny that they ever did it; and when, if ever, this factory in Tralee is in full production, and any function takes place in connection with its formal opening, we will have the Fine Gael Members for the county present on that occasion, expressing their joy that the factory has been established, wishing it every success, and trying to get the public to forget that the attempt to establish it succeeded only against their opposition.

Now we have indeed a model case made for the imposition of a tariff. The Minister thinks that there are people in this country, outside of the individuals of the Fianna Fáil Party, who can surrender their intelligence and surrender their souls completely. The number of the people in the country who can do that is limited. We want to know from the Minister now the way in which a person anxious to establish an Irish industry—thinking carefully about it and examining the position in the country carefully—comes to his conclusions, and we want to know something of his proposals. The Minister comes before this House and asks us to put a tariff of 60 per cent. on enamelled saucepans. He says: "It will not raise the cost of saucepans. That is all I am going to tell you. The employment will not be considerable."

I said it would be considerable.

Then I misunderstood the Minister. "The employment will be considerable. There is £40,000 worth of stuff to be turned out in the country, and I dare any of you ever again to go to Tralee if you vote against raising the price of enamelled saucepans by 60 per cent."

The Deputy is moving to remove the duty and he has not told us why.

I am moving in the only way I can to get the Minister to discuss this matter.

Why does the Deputy want the duty repealed?

The Minister is running away from the discussion to-day. We are all anxious in this House to see the development of Irish industry, to see Irish industry properly rooted in proper circumstances, but not to see Irish industry put as a blister upon people whose purchasing capacity is daily, as a result of Fianna Fáil policy, being further reduced. We want to see Irish industry growing in circumstances in which Irish industry can be supported by the people and can be adequately fed by Irish capital, giving a decent living to young people who go into it and giving them a decent hope that they will be able to live on that industry when they grow old. Does the Minister think, in telling us that this industry has been started in Tralee, that his statement shows that he has given the thought to the industry that should be given to it, that this is going to be a firmly-established industry, that it is going to be a help to the country rather than a burden on it? I submit to the Minister that if he were in a position to paint a picture on the lines I suggest, that this was an industry likely to give decent employment and which would not be a blister on the country, he would approach the presentation of his proposal to confirm this Order in the House in a very different way. I do not surrender my judgment or my mind to the Minister or his Party when they come before us and say that this Order putting a tariff of 60 per cent. on these articles will not increase the price. I do not accept unquestioningly a statement of that kind from the Minister, who told us that the imposition of a duty did not raise the price of almonds in the country or the Minister who told us that there are 25 people employed in shelling and processing almonds in the country at the present time. I do not believe the Minister.

The Minister has stated that this firm has started manufacture. In this Order baths and component parts and gas cookers are exempt. I should like to ask the Minister does this firm intend to enamel lavatory basins? I would like an answer specifically on that point. I should also like to ask him when they are going to commence the delivery of stuff in commercial quantities, because, according to most people, that is a long way ahead. The Minister has said that licences have been issued, but certainly quite a number of people have been refused licences. I should like if he would give us some information on these two points. Is this firm going to manufacture or enamel lavatory basins, because it seems a senseless proceeding to put up the cost of one particular line that they are not going to manufacture at all? I should like to ask him also when commercial deliveries are going to start from this factory.

The duty applies to enamelled hollow ware of wrought iron or wrought steel other than those articles specifically mentioned as being excluded from the scope of the duty. So far as I am aware, it is the purpose of the company concerned to manufacture all the classes of wrought iron and wrought steel to which the Order applies. I am not in a position to say definitely when the company will be able to deliver in commercial quantities. They have commenced manufacture for stock, but at the moment I am not in a position to say when they will be able to start deliveries, but it should be at quite an early date.

The Minister has not answered my question as to whether they are going to enamel lavatory basins. I also asked him what the position is going to be between now and when the company proposes to make commercial deliveries. My information is that that is a long way ahead. What is the country to do in the meanwhile? Are the people to pay this 60 per cent. tariff?

In the meanwhile licences for free importation are being issued.

The Minister has suggested just now that as this company was going into production the issue of licences would be stopped.

No. I said as soon as it was in a position to meet orders, persons applying for licences will be required to show that they are unable to get these goods from the company.

Do I understand that the system, by which persons applying for licences will be required to show that they cannot obtain the goods in this country, is going to start now? Will persons who apply for licences from the beginning of December have their orders referred to the Tralee Company before the licence is issued?

Not until the company is taking orders. So far as I understand they are manufacturing for stock.

Has the Minister any information as to when they will start to take orders?

It will be quite soon.

When the company is taking orders, even if it has not gone into full production, will the application be referred to the company first before a person will be able to get a licence?

We shall make inquiries as to whether it is possible for persons applying for licences to get the goods from the company. If they cannot, then the licence will be issued.

That is, the Arklow system will apply?

The usual system, the normal system.

Will the Minister say whether after he ceases issuing licences to other persons, he will continue, for any section of these goods, to issue licences to the Tralee Company?

So that when the licences are stopped for anybody, they stop for all?

Yes, but the Deputy will understand that in relation to particular classes of goods one person may place an order which will occupy the production of the company for quite a time and a number of other people may require goods during that period. Generally the position is that so long as there is a deficiency in production, so long have licences to be issued. They will be issued when we are satisfied that the goods cannot be obtained here.

I should like to know what are the general principles governing the issue of licences in this and other cases.

It would be out of order to tell the Deputy now.

Apart from this commodity altogether?

That is what I say— it would be out of order.

Discussion is confined to a particular commodity.

Well, in the case of this commodity, having experience of licences issued in relation to other commodities, I say there is a good deal of confusion and misunderstanding. Would the Minister now state what are the general principles by which he is guided in issuing licences because there is a feeling abroad that the Minister or his Department only issues licences to partisans of his own Party. That assertion has been freely made.

When the Deputy who makes that allegation produces one iota of fact to support it, I will take him seriously but not until then.

I am asking the Minister a question which he should answer.

In my view that is a contemptible suggestion which I propose to ignore.

On what general principle is the Minister going to issue licences?

General Principles do not arise now.

In this case I am anxious to know if I can get some information on that matter from the Minister.

That very matter had been raised and decided before the Deputy entered the House.

Is not the Minister empowered to issue licences where the demand for certain goods is not being satisfied? If the company is unable to satisfy the demand for that particular commodity, it is generally understood —it is so in most countries—that the Minister would then, in order to satisfy the demand for these goods, issue licences. What I want to know is, on what principle is he guided in issuing licences? Is he guided by the experience of other countries?

I propose to ignore that suggestion, or any other suggestion that the Deputy makes, until he publicly withdraws the allegation that he made here.

I made no allegation.

And he can keep out of my office until he does so.

Question put: "That the Reference and all references thereto stand.,,
The Committee divided: Tá, 57; Níl, 38.

Tá.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Carty, Frank.
  • Cleary, Mícheál.
  • Concannon, Helena.
  • Cooney, Eamonn.
  • Corbett, Edmond.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Corkery, Daniel.
  • Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
  • Crowley, Timothy.
  • Daly, Denis.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Gibbons, Seán.
  • Goulding, John.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Pearse, Margaret Mary.
  • Rice, Edward.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick Joseph.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Hales, Thomas.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Keely, Séamus P.
  • Kehoe, Patrick.
  • Kelly, James Patrick.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kilroy, Michael.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Conor Alexander.
  • Moane, Edward.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Murphy, Patrick Stephen.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
  • O'Dowd, Patrick.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
  • Walsh, Richard.

Níl.

  • Alton, Ernest Henry.
  • Anthony, Richard.
  • Bourke, Séamus.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Broderick, William Joseph.
  • Burke, James Michael.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Costello, John Aloysius.
  • Daly, Patrick.
  • Davis, Michael.
  • Desmond, William.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry Morgan.
  • Dolan, James Nicholas.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Hogan, Patrick (Galway).
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • Keating, John.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • MacDermot, Frank.
  • McGovern, Patrick.
  • McGuire, James Ivan.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Minch, Sydney B.
  • Morrisroe, James.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, James Edward.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • Redmond, Bridget Mary.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Rogers, Patrick James.
  • Rowlette, Robert James.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Little and Smith; Níl: Deputies P.S. Doyle and O'Leary.
Question declared carried.

I move amendment No. 3:—

To delete Reference No. 4 and all references thereto in columns Nos. 2, 3 and 4.

I have pointed out already, arising out of answers given by the Minister in connection with this matter, that the Minister is here extending the tariff which he put on linoleum to get after the unfortunate people now using the cheaper type of floor-covering. It is interesting to see that, while the Minister for Finance tells us in connection with hollow-ware that the Customs duties going to be raised were considered comparatively negligible — comparatively negligible in the case of almonds; not appreciable in the case of leather; and comparatively negligible in the case of racquets and sports goods—in the case of linoleum and thread he tells us that it is not desirable to say what the Customs duties are going to be. The figures given by the Minister, in reply to a question asked by Deputy Doyle on October 30th, indicate that the imports of linoleum in 1935 fell by 92,344 yards when compared with 1934. Only 67,671 square yards of floor-covering not elsewhere specified or included (not of wool, jute or fur) were imported for the six months March-August, 1934, but 438,723 square yards were imported between March and August, 1935, so that we have a development whereby persons are using a cheaper type of floor-covering, the price of which is less than one-fourth the price of linoleum, indicating, as I said in connection with other matters, and with hollow-ware, that people are driven to go in for cheaper things to equip their houses.

In the general circumstances that exist, the Minister is putting on a tax that is going to be effective from the start, of 6d. per square yard on this cheaper type of floor-covering as well as on linoleum, but the Minister for Finance says that it is undesirable to let us know how much money is going to be raised by way of Customs duties this year, as a result. I pointed out already that the Minister for Finance has been using the Emergency Imposition of Duties Act to patch up holes in his budgetary position. When the patch is any kind of a sizeable patch it is undesirable to tell the House the size of it. It is undesirable in the case of floor-covering, and it is undesirable in the case of thread. And we are told quite pleasantly that it is not worth talking about, that it is comparatively negligible, nothing at all, or nothing appreciable in the case of other goods. Here we have a duty imposed by the Minister for Finance, and although it is an appreciable duty, where the heaviest part of the imposition falls on people who are driven to buy the poorest class of floor-covering, we are not told how many holes in his budgetary position this tariff is going to stop. But the Minister for Industry and Commerce, in the case of this tax, which is completely effective from the start, tells us that he has made no recommendation for the issue of licences to import these goods free of duty. All he tells us, when the duty is about to be imposed, is that it will create new employment. He does not tell us what that employment is. I do not know whether the Minister's attitude is that a new industry is being established in some particular town, and that he dares any of us to go near that town if we vote against this tariff. If that is not his attitude, or if he has an additional case to make for the imposition of this duty we expect to be told where the industry has been set up and, as in the case of Tralee, we expect him to tell us who is setting it up, when it will get into production, how many persons it will employ, the amount of capital likely to be invested and other details, to enable the House to make up its mind whether the establishment of this industry is going to be for the industrial good of this country; and whether it is going to provide an industry instead of being a blister on the unfortunate people, who have to use floor-covering, or if it will help them to get what they want and be an economic addition.

On an earlier occasion I told Deputy Mulcahy that he should be satisfied that he got his statistics accurately without attempting to make deductions. On this occasion neither his deductions nor his statistics are correct. In fact, the average cost per square yard of imported material shows a tendency to increase —not decrease. It is true that the quantities have decreased. If the Deputy would only carry his inquiries a little further he would find another explanation from the trade and shipping statistics. He would find that there was a very substantial increase in the quantity of carpets imported which rather suggests that there has been a tendency to use carpets instead of linoleum.

We are getting luxuriously inclined.

I have not offered that explanation. That is the Deputy's explanation. Floor-coverings, linoleum and oilcloth were subject to a duty prior to the making of this Order. That duty was imposed solely for revenue purposes. No one pretended otherwise. The revenue derived from it goes into the Exchequer for the purpose of balancing the national accounts. This duty was imposed for the purpose of affording protection to a new industry which is to be established for the production of floor-covering. The factory for the production of felt base floor-coverings and for the printing and finishing of linoleum is being erected in Tipperary by a new firm, a Saorstát company, with which a Belgian company is associated. The company will have a majority of its share capital held by nationals and will not require any licence under the Control of Manufactures Act. Licences for the importation of these goods free of duty are not being issued, but, as certain of the raw material, paper felt, is caught within the definition of felt base floor-covering, licences for the importation of the paper felt are being issued to the company which has undertaken the manufacture of floor-covering.

In one or two cases licences were issued to firms assembling motor cars for the importation of special material used for floor-coverings in motor cars, which also came within the definition and which could not be excluded from the definition. It is estimated that about 600,000 square yards of linoleum, including felt base covering, will be used, but precise figures cannot be given, because they are not available, concerning the particular classes of linoleum and floor-coverings which will be made by the new company. The company undertakes to keep its price as near as circumstances will permit to that for similar products sold under like conditions from their plant in England. The intention is that that should be the position unless unusual circumstances operate to prevent it. It is not possible at this stage to say the number who will find employment in the industry. The factory is not yet completed and production has not commenced. The number, however, will not be inconsiderable in a town like Tipperary, where the advent of the factory has been welcomed. I do not dare or defy members of the Fine Gael Party to turn up at the functions attending the opening of these factories, but they will be there, anyhow.

I observe that the Minister has secured from this company, which proposes to start the manufacture of felt base floor-covering, an undertaking that they will produce it and sell it at a price not greater than that charged by companies in Great Britain producing under similar conditions. I should like to remind the House that an exactly similar undertaking was given by the Westport Thread Company——

I suggest that the Deputy raise that question on the next amendment.

I shall raise it now, and the Minister can get his experts to collect the appropriate material for reply and not engage in weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. An exactly similar undertaking was given in that case, and in the Seanad the Minister was challenged. A list of the prices was produced in that House. Somebody questioned the Senator who was speaking and who had alleged that he was reading from an authorised list of prices. The Senator in question handed the list of prices to the Minister. The Minister said that he would examine them at the earliest possible moment, and added, "I now repeat my undertaking that thread will be made available to the trade here by the Westport Thread Company at prices not in excess, quality for quality, of the prices for similar supplies from British companies." I now allege that 2,000-yard cops of three-cord sewing cotton, white, suitable for the shirt or readymade clothing trade, are being sold by the Westport Thread Company for 65/- a gross, and that the same thread is available from British sources of supply at 49/- per gross.

Did the Deputy consult the Senator to whom he referred?

That is my allegation, and it is now many months since the Minister gave that undertaking.

Did the Deputy consult the Senator?

I am not prepared to inform the House of any private conversations I may have had with Senators, tradesmen or anybody else. Any allegation I make, I stand for personally. I now make this allegation and I challenge the Minister to deny it. I invite the House to agree that the Minister's undertakings as to prices and quality are not worth the paper they are written on or the breath he uses to express them.

The proof of what Deputy Dillon says will be found in the figures provided by the Minister with regard to these floor-coverings and in his statements made here. The Minister is putting 6d. per square yard on the cheaper type of floor-covering. We have already protested against the putting of 6d. per yard on linoleum, which works out at 33? per cent. when you take into consideration the fact that the type of linoleum bought by the ordinary person, particularly if in poorer circumstances, costs 1/6 per yard. What percentage is the Minister putting on these cheap floor-coverings? He is putting on 75 per cent. in the guise of a simple 6d. per square yard. I suggest that this is the class of floor-covering which is used most largely by people in less well-off circumstances. It is being used in increasing quantities because of the reduction of purchasing capacity and the Minister is putting 6d. of a duty per square yard on this article, which costs 8d. per square yard. The Minister says that he has got a guarantee from this company that they will sell the product of their industry at the same price as similar products are sold in Great Britain unless exceptional circumstances occur. I am quite confident that the circumstances provided by a tariff of 6d. per square yard on an article imported up to the present at 8d. per square yard will be sufficiently exceptional to raise the cost here by the full amount of the duty.

I am sure the Deputy is quite certain that there is not an honest man in the country but himself.

This class of floor-covering has been imported in tremendously increased quantities of late. In the six months, March to August, 1935, 438,000 square yards were imported as against 67,000 square yards in the corresponding six months of the previous year. The people who are driven to use this particular class of floor-covering are going to pay 75 per cent. additional for the material they require. This Order was issued on the 6th September, no doubt after considerable discussion with the parties who stated they were going to set up this industry. Two months after that, the Minister told us, in reply to a Parliamentary question, that he was not in a position to state what employment would be provided by the industry. He is not in a position to give us that information now, either. He tells us nothing about the capital of the company. He does not say explicitly, but he implies, that 600,000 square yards of cheaper floor-covering will be manufactured in this establishment. The presentation of his case is not such as should persuade this House to put a tariff of 75 per cent. on these articles.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 59; Níl, 38.

Tá.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Carty, Frank.
  • Concannon, Helena.
  • Cooney, Eamonn.
  • Corbett, Edmond.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Corkery, Daniel.
  • Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
  • Crowley, Timothy.
  • Daly, Denis.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Doherty, Hugh.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Gibbons, Seán.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Hales, Thomas.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Keely, Séamus P.
  • Kehoe, Patrick.
  • Kelly, James Patrick.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kilroy, Michael.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Conor Alexander.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Murphy, Patrick Stephen.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
  • O'Dowd, Patrick.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Pearse, Margaret Mary.
  • Rice, Edward.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick Joseph.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Francis C.

Níl.

  • Alton, Ernest Henry.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Bourke, Séamus.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Broderick, William Joseph.
  • Burke, James Michael.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry Morgan.
  • Dolan, James Nicholas.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • Keating, John.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGovern, Patrick.
  • McGuire, James Ivan.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Costello, John Aloysius.
  • Daly, Patrick.
  • Davis, Michael.
  • Desmond, William.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Minch, Sydney B.
  • Morrisroe, James.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, James Edward.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Redmond, Bridget Mary.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Rogers, Patrick James.
  • Rowlette, Robert James.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Little and Smith; Níl: Deputies Doyle and O'Leary.
Question declared carried.

I move amendment No. 4:—

To delete Reference No. 6 and all references thereto in columns Nos. 2, 3 and 4.

This is an astonishing Order and shows an astonishing state of affairs. When the Budget was presented here, the Minister asked for a tariff of 40 per cent. on thread. He had apparently examined the possibility of establishing a thread industry in the country without going deeply into it in the way in which he would wish us to believe he does. The industry was going to be established; prices were going to be very satisfactory; it was going to be very flourishing; and a 40 per cent. tariff would do it, in May, 1935. In September, 1935, he makes use of the Emergency (Imposition of Duties) Act to raise the duty from 40 to 100 per cent. We should like to know something about the reasons which made that necessary and something about what went wrong with the examination that convinced the Minister that 40 per cent. was enough; what transpired between May and September in the conduct of the business that made him come to the conclusion that 100 per cent. was necessary; and why he came to the conclusion that he should raise it to 100 per cent.

This Order is Order No. 76 and contains a licensing provision in Section 6. I object to the Minister receiving a discretion to license the imports of cotton thread which carry a duty of 100 per cent. and for certain reasons. The issuing of licences for the importation of thread leads up to a most disreputable transaction that recently took place in this country, at the instance of the Minister for Industry and the Minister for Finance. In answer to a question by Deputy Mulcahy on 31st October, 1935, the Minister stated:

"Numerous applications have been made to my Department for licences for the free importation of the goods mentioned in the question."

The question referred to Order No. 76.

The Minister added:

"All such applications for normal quantities of the goods are granted if evidence is produced that supplies of cotton yarn are not obtainable from the Irish Sewing Cotton Company, Limited, Westport, or linen yarn from the Irish Linen Thread Company, Dublin. Certain types of cotton threads and ply yarns which are not being produced here at the moment are being permitted to be imported free of duty under licence in normal quantities."

I invite the Minister to say whether, since that question was answered, he had an interview with the Merchant Drapers' Association and informed them that he was prepared to issue licences for the free importation of thread while Westport was getting under way and making itself ready to supply promptly orders for cotton thread for resale. I believe he did give an undertaking to the merchant drapers of this country that, in the event of their being able to show that they could not get supplies of thread from Westport, he would be prepared to issue licences under Section 6 of that Order. That is correct? When that Order was made, the situation was that the central agency, which is the selling agency for a number of firms engaged in the cotton thread business in Great Britain, had imported into this country a very considerable quantity of cotton thread. I explained to this House before that this importation of thread took place during, and subsequent to, discussions that had taken place between Messrs. J. and P. Coates and the Minister's Department on the question as to whether they would be allowed to manufacture cotton thread in this country.

It was decided that they would not be allowed to manufacture cotton thread in this country and that the manufacture thereof would be a reserved commodity for the Westport factory. During and after these conversations the central agency continued to import quantities of thread. The Minister for Industry and Commerce, in collaboration with the Minister for Finance, then imposed an Excise duty of 40 per cent., not upon cotton thread in this country, but upon such cotton thread as might be in the possession of any person who held, at a given time, more than £10,000 worth of thread, with the result that Emergency (Imposition of Duties) Order affected only one individual in Saorstát Eireann, and could affect only one individual in Saorstát Eireann, After it had affected that one individual to the tune of £4,000 odd, the Minister for Industry and Commerce announced his intention to allow that Excise duty to lapse completely so that the Excise duty would operate only as a penal fine on these people who had brought in thread.

The Minister for Finance then took the floor and announced that he would deal with acts of sabotage of this character. The suggestion was that the central agency had brought into the country such quantities of thread that the Westport Company would be quite unable to get into production at all, because there were such large accumulations of thread in the country that there would be no demand for the Westport products. What are the facts? Two months after the imposition of that Excise duty, two months after the robbery of this individual firm, the legalised robbery by that Excise Order, the Minister indicates his readiness to issue licences for the importation, free of all duty——

What is the Deputy's explanation?

——Customs or Excise duty, of thread of the same character as Westport is producing because Westport is unable to supply the current demand for thread. So it emerges that there was never any threat to the prosperity of the Westport factory in the thread accumulated by the central agency in Dublin, but there was some affront to the silly, personal pride of the silly small man with whom this country is afflicted as Minister for Industry and Commerce. He had told the central agency that he would not let them in; he had told them that he would not allow Messrs. Coates to operate here; but somebody told him: "They are here; they have about £10,000 worth of thread at the North Wall," and this silly man determines to show that he has power to wreak vengeance on any individual who attempts to slight him in this country. So we have the disgusting and scandalous spectacle of an individual Minister of this State having a personal quarrel with a citizen of this State and fining him £4,000 with the semblance of legality.

That is an outrage on every standard of decency that ought to obtain in this country, and the Minister is convicted of having done that for no other purpose than to wreak his personal spite on that individual, by his expressed readiness to use his powers under the licensing provisions of this Order to admit the same types of thread as he fined the central agency £4,000 for having in the City of Dublin three months ago. That may amuse the Minister, but it creates a precedent in this country of a most deplorable character. It not only creates the detestable principle that an individual Minister may visit his wrath, his private spite, on his neighbours under the appearance of law, but it also establishes the principle that the Minister may perpetrate a disgusting injustice of that kind and then attempt to wriggle out of it by refusing to bring the matter before Oireachtas Eireann, until a private Deputy of this House takes him by the back of his neck and drags him struggling into the light of day. On the last occasion I raised this, he sat in embarrassed silence and allowed the Minister for Finance to cover his tracks as best he could. To-day he has no excuse for silence; he has to try and defend himself, which he will do with all the powers of abuse and vituperation at his disposal. I urge upon him now to tell the House how he justifies his vindictive spite against an individual who did something that was perfectly legal at the time of doing it; how he justifies having imposed a fine of £4,000 upon this firm; how he justifies his attempt to avoid rendering an account for that action to this House until he was forced to it by comments from these benches.

I think it is time that all the facts relating to this business were known, rather than that the public should be left under the impression that the garbled account that Deputy Dillon has repeatedly given to this House should be accepted. Deputy Dillon, of course, has only one explanation to offer for any set of circumstances, and that is an explanation discreditable to the Government. In this matter, he has obviously made no effort to verify his information. He cannot have possibly discussed the matter with any organisation, with the Drapers' Chamber of Trade, which has discussed the matter with the Government, the representatives of the manufacturing company in Westport, or the officials of the central agency to whom he made reference. If he had gone to any one of these sources of information I think he would have avoided referring to the matter and not have put himself in the very foolish position he has taken up.

It is an extraordinary thing that, despite the fact that very large quantities of cotton thread were imported into this country last year, we are still issuing licences for further importations. The Deputy, however, made no attempt to find out what was the proper explanation of that extraordinary fact. The only conclusion he could come to was that these importations, although they are officially recorded in our trade and shipping statistics, and although I stated here in the past that they had taken place, could not have taken place at all. But he is wrong. He is usually wrong, but he is more flagrantly wrong on this occasion than usual.

A duty upon cotton thread was originally imposed at the rate of 40 per cent. because we considered that a 40 per cent. duty was a sufficient protection for the industry. May I say straight away that we had no discussions with Messrs. Coates on the subject of their manufacturing thread here; nor did they make any approach to the Department in the matter until an arrangement for the establishment of a factory in Westport had been concluded. While they were in fact approaching the Department, they were engaged in these importations of huge quantities of cotton thread through the central agency to which the Deputy refers. I think that when he talks about an individual, he is talking about the central agency, which is not an individual, but an agency representing a big and powerful group of thread manufacturers in Great Britain, with millions of capital behind it and enormous resources which could be utilised, if they so chose, for the purpose of making the manufacture of thread in this country impossible and which, I submit, they decided so to use. May I say that the increase in duty from 40 per cent. to 100 per cent. was necessitated because, in our opinion, there was an imminent possibility, if not a probability, of further huge quantities of thread being imported, despite the 40 per cent. duty, and stored in Dublin, as the thread imported previously is stored in Dublin.

There is within a very short distance of this building over £30,000 worth of cotton thread in store. Let the Deputy try to buy some; he will not be able to. That thread has been in store for a long time and it is not being sold. It is being held, as further thread, which might have been imported if this increase in duty had not been effected, would also have been held, for the purpose of those who are engaged in these tactics, whatever that purpose may be.

That situation is causing us concern. An Excise duty of 40 per cent. was imposed upon certain stocks of thread. That Excise duty did not catch all the stocks of thread that exist. A sum of £4,000 was paid in consequence of that duty. But the situation created by the existence of these stocks, and the menace which they constitute to the industry here, whenever those who hold them choose to release them, still exist. It is one which may occasion other measures, if it is to be removed.

You can seize them when you get rid of the Seanad.

It may be necessary, but I do not think so.

It may be necessary?

Let me state straight away that the tactics which this powerful combine decided to adopt in order to prevent the development of the industry in this country must be defeated, because if those tactics are not defeated, then inevitably they will be repeated in respect of other industrial products here. I am sorry that Deputy Mulcahy and Deputy Dillon should range themselves on the side of those adopting these tactics, despite their professed desire to promote industrial development here, and despite the new-found policy of their Party to encourage industrial development. There is, so far as I am aware, no dissatisfaction whatever amongst drapers or manufacturers concerning supplies of thread.

Will the Minister note anything of the satisfaction of the purchasers of thread?

I intend to speak of that also. I have here a Press report of the meeting of the Executive Council of the Drapers' Chamber of Trade held last week, and published in the Press. It states:—

"Mr. Michael O'Leary presiding at the meeting of the Executive Council of the Drapers' Chamber of Trade stated that the Chamber had been instrumental in removing some of the difficulties which were seriously interfering with the drapery trade. Among these he particularly mentioned the sewing-cotton question which had now been adjusted to the satisfaction of the trade, and no reason exists for any shortage of sewing-cotton."

Will the Minister describe the nature of that adjustment?

I intend to. Representatives of the Drapers' Chamber of Trade attended a meeting in the Department of Industry and Commerce, at which representatives of the Irish Sewing-Cotton Company were also present, and urged that the Department should adopt the practice of issuing a licence to the Sewing-Cotton Company only in so far as thread for retail sale was required. I was very reluctant to adopt the recommendation of the Drapers' Chamber of Trade, for reasons which had no bearing upon the position of retail sales of thread, but for other reasons. But, on the very strong representations of the Drapers' Chamber of Trade, I adopted that arrangement and it has been in force since. The members of the Chamber have, in fact, testified that it is working to their satisfaction. Whether it is working to our satisfaction is another question; but it has, apparently, proved satisfactory from the point of view of retail traders. At that joint meeting, the representatives of the Drapers' Chamber of Trade, who are, presumably, responsible people and know the circumstances existing in their industry, stated that the thread manufactured at Westport was equal to and, in some cases, better than Coates' thread in quality and that the prices were the same.

Plus the tariff?

No. This refers to sewing-cotton, not to manufacturers' cops?

So far as manufacturers are concerned, apart from one complaint which was given to me in the Seanad by Senator MacLoughlin, and which on investigation was found to be based on a misunderstanding, I have had no complaints from the manufacturers as to any difficulties in the matter of supplies or in the matter of prices charged by the Westport company.

Does the Minister contend that the prices are the same as Coates'? Do I understand from that statement that there is no reason arising out of the tariffs imposed in May last for a rise in the price of cotton thread over the prices of cotton thread previous to May last?

There is no reason for any rise.

Has the Minister investigated why it is that the price has risen?

I have had no complaints that prices have risen.

They have risen over 75 per cent.

If Deputies have information to that effect, I wish they would supply it to me rather than keep it to themselves. The only evidence I have had is that supplied by the representatives of the Drapers' Chamber of Trade, who told me that the prices were no higher than before May last, and that the quality was as good, if not better. It is true that the Westport company is not yet in a position to supply the full requirements. Therefore, licences are issued despite the fact that this huge quantity of thread is stored in Dublin. It is a rather curious and anomalous situation and it is one that calls for considerable care on the part of the Government to ensure that the motives of those who are responsible for that huge importation of thread are not inimical to the development of the industry here and that any such designs will not be fulfilled. The increase to 100 per cent. in the duty was not necessitated by anything that transpired in the conduct of the business at Westport—to use Deputy Mulcahy's phrase. It was occasioned only by the fact that reliable information reached my Department that if that increase had not taken place, a further substantial importation of thread for storing purposes was likely to be effected. It was to meet that that this duty was imposed and that this duty is going to be maintained.

Progress in the industry at Westport has been steady. As I explained already, they are working upon a definite schedule of operations, but the full process of manufacture will not be undertaken for some time to come. Though it has not been undertaken yet, the company are getting to the stage at which we will get them to undertake the full process of manufacture. But so far there is no reason whatever to regret in any way any step that has been taken in this connection.

The Minister has made no attempt to defend himself for this scandalous conduct for which he is responsible, and he has done nothing except to make to the House an obviously false statement.

Is that in order?

I am not saying that the Minister has consciously stated what is false, but the Minister is an incompetent man. He has been incompetent since he was appointed to his present office.

Mere vulgar abuse.

Any man who comes into the Minister and plasters him with praise, and then asks for a licence, will get that licence or tariff, but any man who comes into the Minister and tells him he is making a fool of himself will be taken by the ear and shown the door. The Minister told us to-day there was £30,000 worth of thread lying in storage in this city. Did not the Minister put an Excise duty of £40,000 on stocks of thread in Dublin? He tells us there is £30,000 worth of thread there. Why did he not collect a duty of £12,000 on that at 40 per cent.?

I have already stated that the stocks cannot be made liable for duty.

That is another question.

It is a question on which the House should be informed. If there are £30,000 worth of thread in storage without having paid duty the Minister for Industry and Commerce should have placed a duty of £12,000 on it. The Minister, in fact, realised £4,000 some months ago in fines on thread imports. Either the Minister is too incompetent to draft an order to achieve what he has in mind or he is incompetent in that he cannot collect the revenue and vent his spite as he meant to vent it. Here to-day we have it that the Westport Company is importing cotton thread under licence. The Minister wants the country to believe that everything they do not import under this licence is manufactured in Westport. Of course, the thread they import under licence is sold; nothing else is sold. They do not manufacture one inch of thread and never did. The thread is coming in under licence. It is put on reels at Westport and that is all that is done to it. They may contemplate dyeing certain shades of thread, but at the present moment the process in Westport is to put the thread on the reels, and that they are doing none too well. I do not complain of that. It will take some time to train the workers to put the thread on the reels as perfectly as it is done in Great Britain, but that is not making any great drawback. The thread is imported. What the Minister intends to do is to manufacture yarn of all kinds at some central factory. The yarns will be despatched to Westport for the sewing cotton-trade and to other centres for other trades. But in the case of the undertaking at Westport he is recottoning the spools. They are getting licences for these importations. But the people who have been buying cotton for generations on the markets of the world have now to buy that cotton from the Westport Company and pay the Westport Company such a margin of profit as they think well to charge for the services of importing the cotton and reconsigning it to the retail draper who proposes to sell it.

The Minister says that the case represented to him in the Seanad with regard to the price in Westport arose as a result of a misconception. The matter was raised in the Seanad in connection with sewing cotton used by thread manufacturers. Cotton bought in England at 49/- per gross is sold by the Westport Company at 65/- per gross. A large part of that thread is used in the manufacture of shirts for export. In so far as Irish manufacturers of shirts have to pay 16/- per gross extra for their thread supply now, it means that they are put to this disadvantage as against their competitors in England in the export markets of the world. I do not know whether the Minister is prepared to say that he examined that statement made in the Seanad and found that it was not true?

It was found to be incorrect.

So the Minister says. These cops are now costing 65/- at Westport and they used to be bought at 49/-. All I can say is that the Senator who took that matter up in the Seanad has told me that though the Minister promised to communicate with him he received no communication and he has heard nothing from him so far.

The Deputy is incorrect in that.

In what particular?

That he did not hear from the Department of Industry and Commerce.

Well, the Senator told me yesterday he did not hear. Perhaps the letter has miscarried. Will the Minister look into the matter and see if he has written to him? This shirt manufacturer being a member of the Oireachtas, I am quoting him. Ordinarily, I am reluctant to name any merchant, but the fact that he is a member of the Oireachtas alters the situation. The fact remains that licences are now being issued for the importation of the same quantity and quality of thread as was imported three months ago. The Minister has stated that J. & P. Coates were proposing to paralyse the Irish industry and that they sought to prevent its development —that is the allegation—and in order to prevent it they imported these huge quantities of thread. Far from that being true, they had an option on a premises in Dublin where they offered to spin, dye and reel thread—an Irish company, which would be controlled by Irish nationals, on the board of which there would be a majority of Irish nationals.

To whom did they offer it?

That is not so.

I assert that proposals were laid before the Department of Industry and Commerce by a group of business men in this city to manufacture thread in collaboration with Messrs. Coates of Paisley and they informed the Department that they had an option on premises in which to carry on the process. The Department informed them that they would not be permitted to do so because the Department's policy was to reserve the industry to Westport. I state these facts are true, and if the Minister seeks to refresh his memory he will find it is true. So there is no foundation for the allegation that there was any kind of conspiracy on the part of this firm to interfere with any legitimate Irish industry. There was nothing in their action except that they were not prepared to fall on their knees and grovel at the feet of the Minister for Industry and Commerce. For that, in the name of this House, they have been scandalously and improperly mulcted in the sum of £4,000. The money does not make much difference to them, but it is something for which the House should be ashamed and something for which the Oireachtas should condemn the responsible Minister.

The Deputy's statements, in the latter part particularly, are entirely incorrect. I will take the charitable view and assume that he was misinformed.

Does the Minister assert that no approach was made to his Department by a group of business men offering to set up a business to manufacture cotton thread in collaboration with Messrs. Coates in this city, and that his Department informed them that they could not entertain the proposal?

I state there was no indication that Messrs. Coates had any interest in the manufacture of thread here until after the Westport factory had been constructed.

Is it not true that Messrs. Coates offered to engage with a group of Dublin business men in the manufacture of thread in Dublin? Is not that so? I say that that readiness on their part to establish an industry——

After somebody else had started to do it.

——in the City of Dublin acquits them absolutely of any charge of having tried to destroy Irish industry. Far from that being the case, they held themselves out as ready, not only to engage in the reeling of cotton, but in the manufacture of thread, in the dyeing of thread, in the reeling of thread, and in the sale of thread of Irish manufacture, the work to be financed by Irish capital, the thread to be manufactured by Irish labour under the conditions laid down by this House.

These statements are entirely incorrect.

That offer, I assert, was before the Minister. He can wriggle and try to prevaricate, but he knows that offer was made, and he knows perfectly well where the premises were on which the option was taken. I am prepared to give him in confidence the names of the Irish business men who were concerned in the enterprise.

The Deputy's statements are all incorrect.

They are all absolutely true.

There is no wriggling about that—they are not true.

I am opposed to this particular Order being confirmed. I was surprised to hear the Minister say there was no increase in the price of thread. It is a well-known fact that the price has increased from 50 to 75 per cent. Every housewife can confirm that. Complaints have been made to me from all over the Midlands. One reason why I am opposing this is that there have been very grave hardships imposed on a certain type of merchant all over the country. I have one case in mind, and, as I have an intimate knowledge of the details, I will confine myself to it. There is a merchant in Lanesborough who is a wholesaler and has been a wholesaler for a considerable number of years. He has a number of agents, travellers, on the road in connection with the distribution of thread. When this Order came into force, and when Westport was the only place where you could get thread, he applied for a supply as a wholesale merchant. They definitely refused to treat him as a wholesaler and refused to fulfil his order. He was caused grave inconvenience because he was unable to obtain supplies elsewhere and was unable to give his customers their usual requirements. That means that Westport has decided to select certain people to supply thread and exclude others.

I am not to be taken as opposing the Westport factory in any way, but if they are working under special privileges given them by this House they are not to use them to the disadvantage of people who have been in the trade for a great number of years. If Westport does not supply merchants in the ordinary way, these merchants should be entitled to import thread, on application to the Minister. This man had a large number of people employed. I sent the particulars of the case over ten days ago to the Minister and I have not yet had a reply. I want an assurance now that the Minister will see that Westport does not discriminate between one merchant and another, and that where it is established that a man has been in the wholesale business, as Mr. Alfred McCrann of Lanesborough has been, for a number of years, that he will get the quantities of thread to which he is entitled and that he will not suffer any disability because of some antagonism the Westport factory bears towards him.

If the Minister is not satisfied that the price of thread has been increased to the amount I say, I will get at least half a dozen people who will send in signed statements bearing out what I have said. In the case of the labouring classes, the cost of living has increased in other directions, but in the very necessary item of maintenance of clothes they have to pay more for a reel of thread that may not be up to the standard —but that is a thing, as Deputy Dillon said, that can be overlooked. The thread is all right, but the people expect it at a reasonable price. I was surprised to hear the Minister say that it was being sold as cheaply as Messrs. Coates' thread. That is absolutely incorrect.

Question put: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand part of the Schedule."
The Committee divided: Tá, 63; Níl, 41.

Tá.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Carty, Frank.
  • Cleary, Mícheál.
  • Concannon, Helena.
  • Cooney, Eamonn.
  • Corbett, Edmond.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
  • Houlihan, Patrick.
  • Keely, Séamus P.
  • Kehoe, Patrick.
  • Kelly, James Patrick.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kilroy, Michael.
  • Kissane, Eamonn.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • Lynch, James B.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Conor Alexander.
  • Moane, Edward.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Murphy, Patrick Stephen.
  • Corkery, Daniel.
  • Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
  • Crowley, Timothy.
  • Daly, Denis.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Doherty, Hugh.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Gibbons, Seán.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Hales, Thomas.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
  • O'Dowd, Patrick.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Pearse, Margaret Mary.
  • Rice, Edward.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick Joseph.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Francis C.

Níl.

  • Alton, Ernest Henry.
  • Anthony, Richard.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Broderick, William Joseph.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Costello, John Aloysius.
  • Daly, Patrick.
  • Davis, Michael.
  • Desmond, William.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry Morgan.
  • Dolan, James Nicholas.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finlay, John.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Good, John.
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • Lavery, Cecil.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McGovern, Patrick.
  • McGuire, James Ivan.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Minch, Sydney B.
  • Morrisroe, James.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, James Edward.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Redmond, Bridget Mary.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Rogers, Patrick James.
  • Rowlette, Robert James.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Little and Smith; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Bennett.
Question declared carried.

I move amendment No. 5:—

To delete Reference No. 7 and all references thereto in columns Nos. 2, 3 and 4.

Emergency (Imposition of Duty) Order No. 77 might almost be called "The Ireland a Nation Order," because in reply to questions arising out of the Order the Minister for Industry and Commerce, I think, told us on the 30th October that the description "cricket, hockey, golf, croquet and tennis materials" was being cancelled on our import list. Our import list will not bear any reference to those unnational games in future. They will not appear on the list of imports. On the other hand, a new industry is to be set up for the manufacture of those articles. The position with regard to tennis rackets, hockey sticks, and that sort of thing, as far as the information given by the Minister for Finance goes, is that a 15 per cent. ad valorem duty was imposed as from the 12th May, 1932. As from the 10th May, 1934, a 50 per cent. duty was imposed on them. We are told that 15 persons were engaged in stringing rackets on 1st September, 1934. I venture to submit to the Minister for Finance that it did not require any duty or emergency imposition of duty by the Fianna Fáil Government to secure that 15 persons would be employed on the work of stringing rackets in the country. At any rate, cricket, golf, hockey, croquet and tennis materials are to disappear off our import lists. By the imposition of a 75 per cent. tariff in respect of rackets, a 75 per cent. tariff in respect of hockey sticks, and a 75 per cent. tariff in respect of cricket bats—that is an increase from 50 per cent. to 75 per cent.—a new industry is to be set up in this country. I should like to ask the Minister for Finance to give us some details of this new industry, so that the House may consider whether an increase of the duty on these sports goods from 50 per cent. to 75 per cent. is warranted.

On a couple of occasions a proposal has been mooted in this House that Deputies ought to have free travelling facilities over the Saorstát. When I listen to Deputy Mulcahy discussing a motion of this sort I often regret that such facilities are not in operation, because it would then be possible for him on occasions to visit towns in which new industries have been established, and I am certain that after some of those visits Deputy Mulcahy's contribution to a debate of this sort would be more valuable and very much better informed. If the Deputy, before he decided to oppose this motion, took a trip to Portarlington, he would have seen that a new factory is being established there for the manufacture of sports requisites, and he would apprehend from the size of the factory and from what is known about it in the town that the employment to be given is not inconsiderable.

It would be much cheaper and much simpler for Deputies —who have something else to do than travelling around this country on a research campaign, to look after the new industries in the country—if the Ministers putting forward proposals for tariff impositions here in this House would tell us something of the industries that are going to result from those tariffs. The only people who have free travelling facilities, paid for by the taxpayer, to enable them to travel around the country looking at new industries, are the Ministers. The Ministers avail themselves to a considerable extent of those facilities provided by the taxpayer, but the House does not see any sign that they learn very much from their going around. The position taken up by the Minister for Industry and Commerce is: "Here is a tariff. I am not prepared to go to any trouble to give you any information about what the likely effect of it is, or how it came to be imposed. It is up to you to say why it should not be imposed." Therefore, we get tariffs of 100 per cent on thread, 60 per cent. on enamel saucepans and 75 per cent. on something else, thrown at us here in the House, the House being simply asked: "Make a case for voting against. Whether you make the case or not I dare you to vote against it; you would be classed as being against Irish industry." I am sure the Minister will kindly suggest "There is not a man of you here who has spunk enough to run the risk of appearing before the people of this country as not being in favour of the development of Irish industry." The Minister thinks if we were given free travelling expenses we could prowl around the country; that some night or some morning we might strike Portarlington, and that we would see a factory there for the manufacture of cricket bats, hockey sticks, tennis rackets, croquet balls, and things like that. No wonder he calls it by its English name. We do tell the Minister that when he comes here and asks this House to increase from 50 per cent. to 75 per cent. the duty on those articles, he should give us some information as to the number of people who are going to be employed in the making of those things; what the effect of the increased tariff is going to be on the price of those articles, and how the tariff is going to affect the revenue generally. It is nearly time—considering the difficulties which the Minister for Industry and Commerce has got up against in regard to some of his industrial developments—that the Ministers would take those things more seriously, and take the House more into their confidence when putting before it proposals which are supposed to be for the benefit and development of Irish industry, and for the purpose of increasing employment here. The Minister for Finance is not able to tell us what additional employment is going to be given in this industry.

The Minister might at least tell us why the 50 per cent. tariff has been found inadequate. It is a very high tariff after all. I think it would be a disaster if the playing of games were made more expensive in this country. I do not regard games as a luxury but as a necessity.

The Minister might, at any rate, tell us whether what is alleged to have occurred last year, when the duty was at a lesser point, is or is not a fact. With regard to tennis rackets, it is alleged that there was certain activity in the country, and I think it gives us one way of measuring the new movement in the country. I understand that firms who supply rackets wholesale took a census of the number of tennis rackets which would be required here. They then entered into an arrangement with the retailers here, the result of which was that racket frames were sent into this country, and then there was one man— an Englishman—sent over here to string all the rackets that the country required; he did it in less than ten days. The extra cost, as far as the racket was concerned, was the travelling expenses over to this country of that Englishman, and his keep here for ten days. Of course, the actual charge that people paid would have kept many Englishmen in this country for a great many weeks, but the amount of employment, as far as the stringing of those rackets is concerned, was one man for ten days.

I am afraid we shall have to ask the Deputy to produce proof of that to the House. I do not think, after some of the Deputy's former statements here, that any person could take a mere assertion of his as proof.

I ask the Minister has he any evidence to the contrary, and, if so, what it is?

I am not prepared to disprove a statement which, on the face of it, is ridiculous.

So far from its being ridiculous, if the Minister knew anything about the use of tennis rackets in the country, he could easily discover the number that are bought new each year. It could be calculated in a very small number of thousands. The stringing, of course, is not a matter that requires half a day to do. A very big number could be done to the day. If the Minister could get the number bought new each year he would find that ten days is a fairly liberal allowance. I should say that the Englishman occupied a couple of days in sightseeing, probably looking for the new factories.

Question—"That the reference proposed to be deleted stand"—put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 59; Níl, 40.

Tá.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Carty, Frank.
  • Cleary, Mícheál.
  • Concannon, Helena.
  • Cooney, Eamonn.
  • Corbett, Edmond.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Corkery, Daniel.
  • Crowley, Timothy.
  • Daly, Denis.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Doherty, Hugh.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Gibbons, Seán.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Pearse, Margaret Mary.
  • Rice, Edward.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick Joseph.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Houlihan, Patrick.
  • Keely, Séamus P.
  • Kehoe, Patrick.
  • Kelly, James Patrick.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kilroy, Michael.
  • Kissane, Eamonn.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • Lynch, James D.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Conor Alexander.
  • Moane, Edward.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Murphy, Patrick Stephen.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Francis C.

Níl.

  • Alton, Ernest Henry.
  • Anthony, Richard.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Burke, James Michael.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Costello, John Aloysius.
  • Desmond, William.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry Morgan.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finlay, John.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Good, John.
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • Lavery, Cecil.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • MacDermot, Frank.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McGovern, Patrick.
  • McGuire, James Ivan.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Morrisroe, James.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, James Edward.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Redmond, Bridget Mary.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Rogers, Patrick James.
  • Rowlette, Robert James.
  • Thrift, William Edward.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Little and Smith; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Bennett.
Question declared carried.

I move amendment No. 6:—

To delete Reference No. 8 and all references thereto in columns Nos. 2, 3 and 4.

This is the Emergency Imposition of Duties Order that deals with leather. I should be glad to have some information from the Minister as to what the effect of the Order will be.

The Deputy has taken the responsibility for putting down an amendment and ought to prove his case for it.

In the case of a tariff, it is sometimes difficult to know whether it is on the manufactured article or on the raw material: on something that is used in the process of final manufacture. Whatever the effect may be, I would like to know whether it is the intention that this should benefit the people who are manufacturing leather goods in the country, or whether it is simply a revenue device for extracting money from people who have set up establishments for the manufacture of certain goods. Apart from the effect—we can get that later—is it intended to help those manufacturing leather goods?

Has the Deputy read the Order?

Apart from whether I have or not——

Will the Deputy answer my question first?

I have. Am I to take it that it is intended to help the manufacture of leather goods? Surely the Minister knows.

Will the Deputy read the Order again?

The Order says that the Minister is asking for a duty of 37½ per cent., or 9d. per lb., whichever is the higher, on the articles set out.

What are the articles?

Does the Minister want me to recite all this?

Then I can read out the pamphlet.

And when the Deputy has read it he has the answer to his question.

Does the Minister know?

The Deputy can answer the question when he reads the Order.

I think it is intended to help. Is that right?

Help what or whom?

The manufacture of Irish leather goods generally.

I assume it will help indirectly the manufacturers of Irish leather goods.

We know whom we are helping now.

The Deputy has not yet answered the question.

I will try to help the Minister. The Order says that a Customs duty at the rate of 37½ per cent., or 9d. per lb., shall be charged, levied and paid on all leathers.

On all leathers, and not a word about leather goods in it.

Does leather enter into the manufacture of leather goods?

Will it help a firm like Irish Leather Goods, Ltd.?

Is it intended to?

It is intended to help the establishment of the tanning industry here.

And, therefore, be against the manufacture of leather goods.

Not necessarily.

If the Minister could be more explicit on the matter——

The Deputy has taken the responsibility, on behalf of his Party, of putting down a motion here to refuse protection to the tanning industry. Let him prove his case.

I have already had some words with the Minister for Industry and Commerce as to whether or not his interest in the development of Irish industry is greater than mine after some doubts as to the effectiveness of his work. I am interested, for instance, to see how a company like Irish Leather Goods, Ltd., is going to be helped. The Irish Independent of the 16th November last and, subsequently, the Kilkenny People tell us that the directors of Irish Leather Goods, Ltd., are:—

"Abraham Bayer, Jacob Zlotover, Montagu Buckhalter, and Morris Isaacson."

And the Editor of the Kilkenny People says:—

"They're all in that live men's list, be cripes, Kelly and Burke and Shea."

We are anxious to know, among other things, how a company like that is going to be affected by this Order, and how the boot manufacturers in the country are going to be affected by it. Will the Minister give us some help in making up our minds as to whether we should support a tax of 37½ per cent. that may adversely affect the company of Irish Leather Goods, Ltd., and that may adversely affect the shoe leather manufacturers in this country, or, alternatively, raise the price of shoes here? We have had to complain recently of the unsatisfactory attitude of the Minister for Industry and Commerce towards the House, and I hope the Minister for Finance will not put us in the position of saying that his attitude, on this matter, towards the House is worse.

The speech of the Deputy reveals the confused mind of the Opposition on this matter. He has asked me to give him some help to make up his mind to support this tariff, but he has put down an amendment which shows that he has made up his mind to prevent the establishment of the tanning industry in this country. If he wanted to have a discussion on the other basis he need not have put down his amendment.

Because each item of the Schedule could have been taken separately.

Not under the rules of order. Possibly we could get a ruling on that.

On a point of order. Would the Chair be good enough to remind the Minister for Finance that this very question was raised on the Second Stage when the Leas-Cheann Comhairle was in the Chair, and it was then pointed out that the only way in which individual items in the Schedule could be raised was by putting down amendments for the Committee Stage?

On the Second Stage of this Bill? I am afraid my recollection is at fault.

Apart from recollection, what is the rule of order?

What we are particularly interested in is, what about leather? Would the Minister for Finance tell us something about it? We can get clear on the order question some time, but we are now anxious to make up our minds as to whether we should support a duty on leather which up to the present has not been subject to a duty at all.

The position which the Opposition have taken up in regard to every one of the industries that are going to be fostered under this Bill is one of stubborn opposition. It is quite incorrect, I am sure, to say that they could not have found some other way of having the several items in the Schedule discussed, and of having the information which they profess a desire to have in regard to them: that they could not have found some other way of doing that than by putting down an amendment asking the House to refuse to protect this industry. They have chosen the other line, and again I repeat that the onus is on them to show that protection should not be given in this case since they have asked the House to reject the Government's proposals.

The Minister ought to remember this, that plenty of these motions have gone through the House without opposition, and that we have been refused information on these occasions, just as much as on this Order.

Not to-day.

Surely, automatically the Minister in charge of a motion like this ought to give the House proper information, in order to enable it to judge the necessity of imposing this Order.

They were all opposed to-day.

If this is not a private contention between the Opposition and the Minister, I should like to get some information as to whether it covers synthetic binding. A question arises in connection with bookbinding in which I am interested.

I think the Deputy is entitled to that information, and I think Deputy MacDermot is entitled to all the information I can give him, but I do not think any Deputy who has made up his mind in advance, to the extent of putting down a motion asking the House to refuse to protect an industry, is entitled to it. I am entitled to assume that that Deputy already has all the information in relation to that industry.

The Party opposite recently professed to have had a change of heart in relation to Irish industry. They told us that they were now anxious to assist in the development of Irish industry, and particularly new industries in every way possible. Surely, if they are men of intelligence, and if they really do mean what they say, they would not take the extreme step of asking the House to reject the Government's proposals in relation to any one industry, particularly an industry such as tanning, which would appear to be so well suited to an agricultural country, by putting down a motion of this kind.

Can the Minister answer the question?

I will now answer Deputies who appear to have an open mind on this matter. This Order imposes a Customs duty of 37½ per cent. of the value of the article, with a minimum duty of 9d. per lb. on all leather other than bridle leather, crupp leather, hog-skin leather, reptile-skin leather, chamois leather and leather commonly known as chamois leather imported into Saorstát Eireann on or after the 5th day of October, 1935. The Order was made specially to encourage the development of tanneries for the production of leather of the kinds other than those mentioned in the Order as excepted.

Arrangements have been made for the starting of tanneries in Gorey, Carrick-on-Suir, Dungarvan and Passage West. The types of leather to be produced at these factories is, more or less, as follows: Gorey, the manufacture of leather known as greasy leather. If Deputies expect me to tell them what greasy leather is, I admit frankly that I do not know.

I know that. Do not stress that.

Do not stress that. It is a good thing that the Deputy is occasionally sure of his ground before he makes a statement like that.

I am sure of that.

It is a good thing that the Deputy is sure of his ground before he makes a statement like that, and that he does not have to go before another body as he has had to do recently and say: "Please, Sir, I did not mean what I said." The Carrick-on-Suir factory will produce chrome leather and upper leathers generally. Passage West will produce chrome leather and leather linings, to some extent largely for export. The tannery at Dungarvan will produce semi-chrome leather, leather linings and leather used in the manufacture of cloth and fancy goods. It is anticipated that a considerable amount of employment will be given by the establishment of these industries, and that the selling price of the leather at the four new tanneries, when in full production, will be the same, like case for like case, as the selling price ex-British factories. I do not know that there is any more information needed.

Except on employment.

It will be considerable. The fact is that the people in these towns put money into these industries to have them established is an indication that they are satisfied that the employment given will be considerable. As to the position of people who are engaged in the manufacture, I presume, of fancy leather goods, I consider that their position will be improved, because they will have available to them here a supply of reliable raw material and not be subject to the vicissitudes of sanctions and blockades which now afflict the civilised world. I am giving this information to those Deputies, who, I think, are entitled to it, because they have indicated that they have an open mind in the matter. I do not suppose anything I have said will effect any change of mind on the part of the Opposition, and that they will continue to adopt the attitude of Mrs. Partington, and, notwithstanding the general demand of the House and the country, will divide against this proposal, as they divided against all the other proposals to assist in the development of Irish industry which we have had before us to-day.

Will the Minister tell me if he is advised that raw material for all these leathers will be available in Saorstát Eireann? Has he any satisfactory guarantee that the price of these leathers will approximate to the price of leathers which are at present being imported from Great Britain and the continent? The boot and shoe trade is an industry that was founded in this country many years ago. It attained a very considerable measure of prosperity under the moderate tariff policy of the last Government. It is a solid industry, an industry that gives good employment.

It was opposed by the Deputy's Party.

It was introduced by them.

When the Minister was skipping around this country with a Sam Browne belt they were trying to build up the boot industry. They did build it up, despite——

That is wrong. The Minister never had a Sam Browne belt, and I do not think he ever skipped.

If he did not have a Sam Browne belt he liked to think of himself as a warrior on the hillside. At that time Deputies on these benches were trying to build up industries in this country, and were rebuilding factories that the Minister's friends blew up. Let justice be done. This is a useful industry, giving good employment and good wages to very large numbers of men. Above all, it is a product of which we can be justly proud. The fact is that there are many types of boots being produced at Irish factories that do not want any tariff at all, because, shilling for shilling, they are better value than boots that can be bought anywhere else. That is so, because the industry was built up along the right lines, by modest protection which brought it into keen competition in external markets and that brought a high degree of efficiency into the industry at home. In most of the lines they were producing without any tariffs they could meet and beat British manufactures in the matter of value and price. Are the interests of an industry of that character, which is a genuine national asset, going to be jeopardised by an attempt to manufacture leathers in this country for which we have not got the raw material? Frankly, I do not know, but I expect from the Minister, when introducing a tariff of this character, a full communication to the House as to the probable effects on the boot and shoe industry. We certainly ought to have that information before we are asked to confirm a resolution which, at first glance, suggests that the cost of the raw materials of the boot and shoe industry will be substantially increased. I am an eager supporter of the boot and shoe industry. It is the kind of industry I should like to see here. It is the kind of industry for which there need be no subsidies and no doles. It can exist independently and meet objection from wherever it comes. It can show that Irish workers are as good as, and perhaps better than, the craftsmen of any other country in the world. Its interests are paramount and should not be sacrificed to the interest of some pseudo industry which may not have any future. The Minister should tell us what effect this tariff will have on the boot and shoe industry, whether the raw materials of all the types of leather to which he has referred for these four centres of manufacture are available in the Saorstát, and whether, after a fair and scrupulous examination in respect of each of these types of leather, he is satisfied that this proposal is not going to involve the boot and shoe industry in this country in additional overhead charges.

Deputy McGilligan and Deputy Mulcahy had a particular interest in this amendment.

I have nothing to do with this amendment.

I want to show the hypocrisy of Deputy McGilligan and Deputy Mulcahy. These ex-Ministers confused, first of all, a tariff for the protection of tanneries with a tariff for the protection, in their minds, of an industry which is to use the leather manufactured by these tanneries—a subsidiary industry to the tanneries. Deputy Mulcahy, with all his sidestepping, indicated what his interest was—the interest to show that four gentlemen whose names clearly indicated the community to which they belong were starting a particular industry——

Abyssinians?

Members of my persuasion—a persuasion I am very proud of—and citizens of this State, as I am. Deputy Mulcahy, who owed his life to one of these people when the Black and Tans nearly had him——

And who are rather ashamed of the Deputy.

That does not arise on this reference.

They may be ashamed of the Deputy whose object is to drag their names in the mire and use them for political purposes. Let him deny that he owes his very life to them.

We shall have no denials or acceptances on that question on this reference. What Deputy Mulcahy owes to anybody does not arise on the question before the House and he is not supposed to say whether he accepts or denies the statement.

I want to show the purpose behind the introduction of this amendment. It was not one brought about by understanding of what it was. It was put down purely to try to bring into this House something that might be used for political purposes and it was not an indication of interest in the protection of an industry. When Deputy McGilligan is next given the opportunity, I hope he will choose to refuse briefs from these people. Most of his briefs, up to the present, have come from those people.

I can tell you that that is wrong.

What Deputy McGilligan does, in a professional capacity, does not arise on this reference.

I put it to you this way—I take strong exception to those Deputies trying to use the names of people to prove that an industry is not being established for the benefit of the country or the community but is being established for the benefit of a certain small section. That is my interpretation of the attitude exhibited by these gentlemen.

Having said that, the Deputy should come to the amendment.

The amendment was introduced by Deputy Mulcahy, who gave no indication that he had any knowledge of what he was talking about. He had nothing to say for his amendment. Deputy McGilligan tried to help him by a series of questions—a sort of cross-examination of the Minister. He asked if the Order meant this, that or the other. He himself should have known what the proposals were in the Order and how Deputy Mulcahy had misconstrued them. Both these gentlemen are ex-Ministers and should have a certain amount of responsibility. They come along and pretend that they do not understand certain proposals. They use this pretence for the purpose of attacking a certain small section.

That is why all the questions about leather goods were put.

Deputy Briscoe was very anxious to defend a certain community.

I belong to it.

He should defend it because, in the main, they have been discredited in this country by reason of himself and his activities. Nobody can say anything of that particular community except in relation to the Deputy himself. He stands out really as a bad specimen of a good community. Leaving that for the moment, I understood the Minister to back up what I said in my questions, that this tariff is mainly intended for the benefit of people who are manufacturing leather goods.

He did not say so.

Let me then go on to give the House the reason why he is going to help them. Because the leather goods are going to be manufactured and produced at London factory prices. The Minister said that.

A Deputy

Is not the raw material here?

Of course it is, and the benefit is to go to the manufacturers of leather goods. This Order is going to operate to their benefit more than the Minister for Finance has told us. If the Minister for Industry and Commerce had been here we would have got the full tale. He never introduced a tariff that was not going to leave prices lower than they were across the water. He would have told us that there would be an immense benefit from this industry and that we would soon have an export trade.

Stick to this tariff.

The Minister has not told us much in regard to this proposal, but he has told us that prices will be at least the same as London factory prices, and that the people will be able to get the goods without having to pay the freight on them. Surely the leather goods manufacturers will be better off if they believe all that—which I do not. The Minister and the Deputy believe it. I asked if they considered that the tariff was for the benefit of the Irish leather goods manufacturers. They answered, as they were bound to answer, "Yes." Anybody who votes for this proposal is bound to answer "Yes." I am pleased to hear that we are only going to tan leather and that we are not going to tan Mr. Bayer, Mr. Zlotoyer, Mr. Buckhalter, or Mr. Isaacson, because the Deputy will remember that we set out to protect the two Whitsuns in the making of sausages and, apparently, skinned them.

That does not arise on this amendment.

They may have been turning out more than sausages— a chamois leather or something like that. A query was put to us as to the procedure in putting down a proposal to reject.

The query was as to your object.

The Minister has said that we must have made up our mind to reject when such a proposal was put down. It was put down because we had no information which would warrant the passing of the Order.

This amendment asks the House to reject the Order.

If information is not given.

It does not say so.

What was the first point raised on the amendment? We asked the Minister to tell us about the tariff. We have got a little information, and the purpose of this House is to debate matters of this kind with a certain amount of information. The Minister should realise the difference between an open mind and an empty mind. He ought to have his own mind full of information, and he should have read at first what he read subsequently as a result of provocation. His brief is not well made up, because we have not an estimate. I am sorry the Minister for Industry and Commerce is not here, because, with a blank sheet in front of him, he could tell us of the thousands who would secure employment as a result of the tariff. I do not think he has ever given an example of an industry which would not employ a minimum of 300.

Surely, it is a proper procedure in the House to say that the House ought to reject a proposal for a tariff when the proposal for a tariff is not backed by argument and is not backed by fact. I realised, when I saw this, despite what Deputy Briscoe seems to think to the contrary, that this is what we can call the two-tier tariff. A plain tariff is one that can be considered by itself. It has no reaction on any other manufactory which it is intended to assist, but when you are going to protect a particular article which forms the raw material of another production, you are in a different region.

How many boot factories are there in the country at the moment?

I could not say.

You do not know. Then what are you talking about?

I know that there is a considerable number. I know also, although Deputy Dillon was, unfortunately wrong in his history, that there was a considerable number when the Minister for Finance was skipping around the country in his Sam Browne belt.

How many were started in your Administration?

A considerable number of factories were here at that time.

How many were started in your Administration?

I know that there was a considerable number here.

The answer is, none.

At any rate, they were all started by Irishmen.

They were started by the people who saved your life.

They were factories started in my time by reason of the tariffs put on in my time; but far more important than the factories started was the fact that a considerable extension took place of the factories which were decaying——

In your own time.

——before we came into power, and which were not helped by whatever little part the Deputy played in the destruction of the country. The boot and shoe industry was always regarded in the same light as the apparel and woollen industries. They were the three industries which could have a good life in the country, and the biggest tariff we experimented with was the tariff on boots and shoes, and we took the attitude, which the present Ministry do not take, of realising that the tariff should not be a tax on purchasers and we remitted the tax on tea instead. Everybody is being taxed double, and that is not a good situation, but it is a worse situation if a manufacturer of a particular type is established and then, in a blundering effort to assist production lower down the scale, you find that whatever you have attempted to do is to be impeded; and that is what is going to happen here. Personally, I would rather see the boot industry protected instead of protecting the manufacture of leather goods, which has never reached a high standard here, and on account of the variety that is required. I think that this tariff is just as absurd as the tariff on coffin-plates and on the bending of corrugated iron. There was a time when the Minister for Industry and Commerce was most vehement with regard to the tanning industry. He said that there were outrageous demands being made by these people who were previously in the tanning business here, who were disappearing then and who have since disappeared under the sway of the present Minister for Industry and Commerce. He told us they had made outrageous demands on him, and that he was not going to give into them, but when he made his suggestions to the trade they looked upon them as ludicrous and went out of business.

Would the Deputy mention the name of the firms that went out of business?

There was one firm in Limerick that protested against the Minister's proposals.

The Deputy said that firms went out of business. Can he give the name of a firm that went out of business?

I said that firms went out of business, and I mentioned one firm in Limerick that protested.

But the Deputy said that firms had gone out of business.

I said firms went out of business. This is not a place where the scoring of a cheap point is going to do any good.

Oh, I see—not even about leather manufactured goods.

Leather goods are rather of prime importance. Personally, I shall talk about these four names in a moment. I think a good point is to be made that people have a right to demand, with regard to this country, to know who is getting the benefit of the tariffs that are being put on. If Deputy Briscoe wants to talk about his community, he cannot and dare not assert for them any privileged position.

Oh, now, I think we ought not to discuss this tariff in terms of communities.

I put it to you, Sir, that it is relevant to discuss on this, when we are told that this business has four names, whether the tariffs are being used for the benefit of a privileged few. I think we can certainly discuss that.

May I point out, Sir, that the proposal is for a tariff on all leathers and that there is quite a separate tariff on articles manufactured from leather goods?

And I contend that it is quite relevant to discuss this in connection with articles manufactured from leather. I consider it relevant that an individual firm, once it has been mentioned, can certainly be made, at any rate, the subject of discussion, not with regard to the directors themselves, but with regard to the effects of tariffs generally.

The names of the people have been read out and I have not objected, but I think it is entirely undesirable that we should discuss anything here in terms of communites.

Yes, Sir, it has nothing to do with the case. It is just another gold mine.

Is it as bad as that?

I think the Minister should keep well away from that, because Deputy Briscoe is not happy about it.

Neither is Deputy McGilligan.

I am perfectly satisfied, and I should like to see the report of that Committee.

Just in the same way as the Deputy skips up and down the country, he skips in the committee room when being examined. He does not like to be sworn.

We shall discuss that when we see the report.

This is quite irrelevant.

Yes. I would have suggested it was irrelevant, Sir, but I was waiting for it to be ruled out. However, I am quite prepared to discuss it if the Chair gives me an opportunity now, but the Minister has a habit of introducing these things and then looking appealingly at the Chair. It is almost on a parallel with the missing of a train of long ago. However, let me get back to this subject.

The Deputy does not like to be sworn, but whether the Deputy is sworn or not, it makes no difference.

There is one thing definitely to be discussed with regard to these tariffs, and that is whether or not there are certain people getting privileges. Here is a tariff on leather, which may or may not do good to the manufacturers of leather goods, but it is supposed to do good to the tanners. I have not seen that the tanners accept that. They certainly rejected the previous proposals. I certainly do not believe that it will be of any advantage to the manufacturers of leather goods, and I think it is necessary, in discussing any tariffs, that we should find out what is going to be the spread of producing power as a result of the tariff. Will the Minister put a figure —even a rough figure—of how many men will be employed as a result of the tariff, or give us a rough idea of the rates of wages to be paid, or how he is going to find it possible to justify the so-called guarantee that prices will be no higher than those in London factories? We know that the salient facts—they cannot be denied—are that prices will go up and that wages will go down. We know that the Revenue will gain to a certain extent by tariffs on some goods that will still come in and that a certain small number of small manufacturers will get away with the loot. With regard to the industries on which the heavy tariffs have been imposed—and that can be said with regard to nearly all of them—there were industries in this country, industries which it was worth while protecting and industries which were getting along with moderate tariffs, which kept prices down and, at the same time, did not affect wages in an adverse way. The impact of these heavy tariffs has worked out with regard to some hopelessly unsound industries in the country, industries which were not carefully picked, and, therefore where a tariff has not been to the benefit of the community, in the way that wages have gone down, there has been, generally speaking, no spread of purchasing power because either there are not very many extra people employed or the extra people, when multiplied by the decrease in wages——

Is the Deputy not discussing tariffs in general?

Apropos of this. I say that this will be the effect on tanning of this particular tariff. I call to my aid what has notoriously happened in respect of others. The Labour Party has spent its time going up and down the country saying that these industries are mainly sweat-shops. We get the one objection from the Minister—when you say that in regard to one case in respect of which you know it to be a fact, you are told that you are traducing Irish industry as a whole. It only reveals an incapacity to argue the particular case and the screen of the traducing of Irish industry generally has to be brought in. Labour has, with some knowledge of the conditions, generally referred to these industries as sweat-shops.

Will the Deputy come down to the particular matter which we are discussing in this amendment?

With regard to this tariff on tanning, I prophesy that the result is going to be another sweat-shop in the country. There will not be very many extra people taken on; wages will not for the future bear any comparison with what they used to be, with what they have been so long as this tanning industry was flourishing; money will be yielded to the Revenue; the whole cost is being borne by the community; and benefit will only come to a few. There are a small number of tanning firms which will get any benefit out of this. That is why I think it is necessary, when you cannot get information in regard to any tariff in any other way, to put down a resolution to reject and to hope that the Minister will fill the gap even faultily.

There are one or two matters in regard to which I should like to ask for information from the Minister, in reference, firstly, to what I gather Deputy Briscoe calls a subsidiary industry. I am particularly interested in a couple of subsidiary industries from the point of view of the employment they give. Bootmaking, for instance, is a subsidiary industry and my precise objection is that this main industry has in the minds of Deputies opposite become a subsidiary industry.

No, in the mind of the Deputy.

I am using the phrase of the Minister's colleague behind him. Will the Minister for a moment conduct himself? I know it is exceedingly difficult, but will he conduct himself for a moment? He will? Thank you. What I want to put to the Minister is——

If the Deputy learns to conduct himself, he will get an answer.

We have listened to continuous interruption without any effort to control himself on the part of the Minister, who is supposed to be conducting the business of this House. I suggest that you, Sir, should intervene and get the Minister to conduct himself if he cannot restrain himself. I know perfectly well the difficulty he feels in cases like this. We have urged him again and again, but it is exceedingly difficult for him to do so.

The Chair knows its business without the Deputy telling it.

Let the Chair endeavour to indicate that it does know its duty. Every Deputy is entitled to speak without interruption, except when a Deputy rises in his place to raise a point of order. There have been interruptions from both sides of the House and they were not orderly. They were disorderly, and Deputies on both sides ought to refrain from them.

I suppose a Deputy can rise on a point of explanation? If a Deputy misquotes another Deputy, can it be referred to?

Why did you not take the whispered suggestion and sit down?

What I was wondering was whether the Ministry have given any consideration to the effect which this is going to have on some of the principal industries in the country. There is power given in this Order to give licences. Does the Minister contend that, at the present moment, whatever may be said of his prophecies about the future, the tanning factories in this country can supply enough leather for the boot-making industry? I presume he does not. Has sufficient inquiry been made to see that certain factories are not being held up, owing to the refusal to give licences, on the grounds that the needs of these factories can be supplied by home production? I have heard instances of factories applying for licences and being refused. I have been informed very reliably that, having gone to the Department, they were unable to get these licences and that they were told the goods were on the way, but the goods did not arrive. I have been informed that that would interfere with the business of that particular factory. The information I got was from a reliable source. Unfortunately, I am not in a position to give the name of the factory——

That is an old story.

——and I will tell the House why. The reason given to me was that the factory was afraid that if it was given and brought up in the House the factory would be damaged. The Minister says it is an old story. It is, unfortunately, and I am glad he recognises it as an old story.

It is certainly true.

It is true, or, to avoid controversial matters, this at least is true, that the belief prevails, and prevails to a very great extent in the country. More than once, so far as this system of licences is concerned, I have been given information and asked not to mention names, and I take it for granted that the people knew what they were doing when they asked that the name should not be mentioned.

The other point is: Is the Minister satisfied that this is going to give considerable employment? He refuses to give any estimate as to the amount of employment this tariff will give or that will follow as a result of agreeing to this Order. One of the reasons he gave—I hope I am not misquoting the Minister—for his belief that there would be considerable employment was that the people who put money into these industries were satisfied that there would be additional employment. I think I am not misquoting the Minister in that. This is the first time I have heard the protestations of what the Deputy's opposite, a couple of years ago, used often to condemn as capitalists taken as a criterion of the amount of employment given. I suggest that the amount of employment he gives is not what the ordinary man who puts money into an industry is particularly interested in, and any evidence of that kind adduced in favour of the statement "This will give considerable employment" requires very careful examination before it can be accepted as of any value in proving that any such additional employment can be given.

The Minister ought to realise that when a tariff or tax of any kind is being put on the people of this country, which will or may have the effect of increasing the cost of living, the costs of the various articles they buy, it is the duty of the Ministry to justify that tax. It is the duty of the Ministry to come to the House and make a case for the imposition of the tax, and until they have made that case, the House, if it had a sense of its duty, should not pass a tax of that kind. It is, therefore, up to the Minister to show, firstly, the employment that may be expected, and, secondly, the necessity for the tariff, and it is up to the other Deputies of the House to refuse to assent to the tax until that has been proved. Therefore, in challenging the Opposition to make a case for its rejection, the boot is on the other foot. It is the duty of the person proposing a burden on the people to justify that burden.

Deputy Briscoe made a personal reference to me, to which I want to refer briefly. I have always gratefully, and at times publicly, expressed my gratitude to certain members of the Jewish community for services rendered, in particular circumstances, on one occasion to me when members of the Fianna Fáil Party might not be so ready to do it.

What do you mean by members of the Fianna Fáil Party?

I have resented members of that community being despoiled of their proper employment by some of the new "washes-up" on the tariff policy.

Having said that, I think Deputy Mulcahy ought to come down to the reference. Communities were dragged in here in a very irregular fashion, and I have asked both sides of the House to refrain from discussing this matter in terms of communities. I think we ought to cease now and discuss the reference and the amendment.

I want to add this: I am as anxious to protect that section of the Jewish community that were here in this country long ago, as I am to protect any other parts of the community against some of the new arrivals, and protection of and interest in them is necessary.

Who are those people you refer to?

On the general question, the Minister for Finance objected to an amendment being put down that would secure that discussion on one of those Orders would take place. What we want in connection with tariffs is as complete information as possible as to what industrial development we are going to achieve here. We approached this question of leather by a certain number of questions addressed to the Minister for Finance and to the Minister for Industry and Commerce as soon as we could after the issue of this Order. The Order was issued on 20th September, and the earliest date on which we could ask for information was 30th October. We asked for some of it on 30th October and for some on 31st October, but we have not progressed any further from the position arrived at then.

However, some information was given to us upon which I should like the Minister for Finance to comment upon further. We were told then that the purpose of this Order was to bring about an increase in industrial production here. We were told by the Minister for Finance that no appreciable revenue would be collected during the year as a result of the Order. It was implied that all licences for the normal requirements of persons importing these materials would be issued. Deputy O'Sullivan has indicated that that is not so, that there are firms in the country who require them to carry on their ordinary manufacturing processes and they are prevented from getting them. In the absence of a licence they are forced, if they want to keep their business going, to import them at the cost of paying a duty of 37½ per cent.

Further industry was to be established. Although the Minister for Finance is able to tell us that four different industries were to be established here, we can get no further information from him as to the amount of employment to be given. The Minister for Finance and the Minister for Industry and Commerce were asked with regard to the type of leather that was being imported and the amount that is likely to fall under this duty. The Minister has spoken of various kinds of leather, but the fact is that, although sole, insole and harness leather are included in this Order, the tariff of 37½ per cent. was actually already on these for a considerable time before the making of this Order, and the Order, in fact, falls on a different class of leather.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce gave some information as to the amount and value of the other class of leather imported into the country in a reply given on 30th October last. I should like to ask the Minister for Finance, in relation to the figures quoted there, if he would take these items. During the six months, April-September, 1933, there was imported into the country dressed upper leather, other than patent, varnished, japanned and enamelled, to the value of £90,000; in 1934, £73,000 and, in 1935, £184,000— evidently a considerable increase in the amount of dressed upper leather for the new boot industry in the country. I should like to ask the Minister whether leather of that particular kind is going to be manufactured here in the new factories. If £184,000 worth was imported in the six months from April to September, 1935, is the Minister for Industry and Commerce not able to make some calculation as to the amount of employment that would be given here if all that leather was made here?

The Party to which the Minister belongs were experts in that type of computation about the end of 1931. They carried their expertness in this matter into the year 1932, and up to the eve of the General Election in 1933. Have the formulæ that were worked to at that time been found to be all wrong, or has the expert left the Party? At any rate, we would like to know whether that particular class of leather is going to be made here; whether he anticipates that the quantity formerly imported will be made here; and is there no means by which the Minister for Industry and Commerce or his Department can ascertain the average amount of employment that is given in the turning out of a particular amount of that leather?

Again the import of dressed leather, hide calf and kip, other than bridle and upper, increased from £3,700 in the six months, April-September, 1933, to £12,800 in the six months, April-September, 1935. Is that leather going to be manufactured here, and can the Minister not say the amount of employment that is involved in the manufacture of a particular amount of that leather? Again, there is patent, varnished, japanned and enamelled leather, the import of which in the same six months has gone up from £2,100 to £4,500. Other sorts of leather have gone up from £17,000 to £25,000, and the imports of leather crust, of which there was no import before, amounted in 1935 to £21,000.

By means of question we endeavoured to find out from Ministers the fiscal, employment, and industrial effect of this new tariff Order. The next means of endeavouring to get information from the Ministers was to hold the door of discussion open here by an amendment to this Schedule in order to secure that the proposal would not slip through the House without the Ministers being brought up against their responsibility in the matter of giving information when they claim to be establishing industry here. The people of this country depend too much on the sound and proper development of Irish industry to allow proposals such as we have been used to from Fianna Fáil Ministers to slip through without the most careful examination.

Ministers had better make up their minds that they will be forced to face the intelligence of this House and to face the general representatives of the people to explain their proposals and to give reasons why the House should put on tariffs of the size that we have been asked to put on to-day, ranging from 100 per cent. on thread to 60 per cent. on enamelled saucepans, 75 per cent. on floor-coverings and 37½ per cent. on the raw materials of many boot industries in the country.

In case the House may be misled by the speech which the Deputy has just delivered into thinking that this has been a serious debate upon the proposal to protect industries of great importance to this country, I would ask the House to throw its mind back to the manner in which this debate was opened. Every endeavour was made to secure a statement from me that this duty, which, on the face of it, relates immediately, directly and primarily to unmanufactured leather, was meant to cover manufactured leather goods. I asked Deputy McGilligan, who put that question, if he had read the Order and he said he had. I asked him to read it to the House. Why did I ask him? Because the moment he read the Order it would be clear that this duty related to leather goods and that Deputy McGilligan had some ulterior motive in asking his question, or rather that Deputy McGilligan in collaboration with Deputy Mulcahy had. Sometimes it is a good thing to let a person expose his hand. I said that possibly indirectly this duty might affect the manufacturers of leather goods. Then, on the assumption that by doing so I had put Deputy McGilligan and Deputy Mulcahy in order, and that it would permit them to raise a red herring and to endeavour to bolster up the campaign which they have carried on through the country and to give some support to the assertion which they have frequently made that these industries which we are protecting are not being protected for the benefit of Irish citizens, Deputy Mulcahy got up and mentioned to this House the names of four citizens of the Free State. The gentlemen are utter strangers to me. I do not recollect their names, but I do remember that one of them was named Isaacson. Then Deputy Briscoe got up and allowed the public to glean from his statement that in circumstances of great difficulty during the Black-and-Tan days the gentlemen, or some of them, had shown themselves to be worthy citizens of the Free State to the extent of protecting Deputy Mulcahy's life just then.

And they are to be protected now against the consequences of the Minister's policy.

Then after that exposure had been made Deputy Mulcahy got up in the House and acknowledged the truth of what Deputy Briscoe had said, and said that not only here but on many other occasions he had gratefully and publicly proclaimed the debt he was under to one of these individuals. Was it in grateful publicity of the debt he owed to these people that he got up here and——

Will I be allowed to reply to this? I ask that because I cut the matter short, relying on the Chair that this personal matter was finished?

I will not detain the House more than a minute with this matter.

On a point of order, will Deputy Mulcahy be allowed to reply to the statements now being made by the Minister?

I understand that the Minister is replying to statements made by Deputy Mulcahy. The House is in Committee.

Am I to understand that General Mulcahy will be in order in replying to what the Minister for Finance is saying now? The reason I ask the question is this: Deputy Briscoe professed to reply to General Mulcahy and the Chair intervened. General Mulcahy tried to deal with Deputy Briscoe's statement and again the Chair intervened. The matter is now being raised again. May I ask if General Mulcahy will be allowed to reply to this issue now being raised?

He will be allowed to reply to any statements made by the Minister.

Which have not been discussed already by the Deputy.

May I suggest to the Minister that the House has heard more than enough on this matter already. The Minister has fully brought out his point, such as it is.

I just want to add one other sentence. Deputy Mulcahy said that he has gratefully and publicly acknowledged the debt which he owes to these people. Was it in grateful publicity of this debt that Deputy Mulcahy, having read out the names of these gentlemen, added a reference to Kelly and Burke and Shea? If the Deputy will listen to me I will show him how gratefully and publicly he expressed himself. Having recited the names of these four men he sneeringly added a reference to Kelly and Burke and Shea.

As I have already said, the primary purpose, the sole purpose expressed in the terms of this Order is to apply a duty on leather with certain minor exceptions. When I told the Deputies, who indicated that they had an open mind on the matter and to whom facts and information might carry conviction, that the proposal was one that ought to be supported, I gave certain facts in relation to the industry. I pointed out that in consequence of arrangements that had been made for this proposal to impose a tariff, I said that four new tanneries were to be established—one at Gorey, one at Carrick-on-Suir, one at Dungarvan and another at Passage West. I said that they would manufacture leather of various descriptions—leather that has not previously been manufactured in this country or at least not manufactured for a very long period. I said that when the factories were in full production the price of the products of the new tanneries, the circumstances and conditions being similar, would not exceed the selling prices of these commodities at the British factories.

Generally I think I proved to the satisfaction of the House that the motion put down by Deputy Mulcahy ought to be rejected and that this proposal should remain in the Schedule to the Bill. Then Deputy McGilligan or Deputy Dillon got up and wanted to know what would be the effect of this proposal upon the boot factories—if you please, upon the boot industry which had been established by our predecessors. I asked Deputy McGilligan who, as Minister for Industry and Commerce, would normally be expected by the public, however mistakenly, to have some knowledge of the affairs with which his Ministry was concerned, to tell the House the name of one new boot factory that had been established under his régime. Now, Deputy Dillon is a man who speaks always in superlatives. When he is criticising the Minister for Industry and Commerce there is no word too extravagant, too magniloquent, in the dictionary, expressive of meanness, of contempt, that Deputy Dillon does not apply to the Minister. I do not know how I might characterise the statement which Deputy Dillon made here to-night. He started off and praised—because praise could not be withheld—the efficiency of the boot manufacturing industry in this country. He said it was an industry that could hold its own anywhere; that our products compared favourably both in quality and price with those made elsewhere. And then he said, in face of all the knowledge which he must have had and which everybody has of the history of that industry, that this was an industry that had been fostered and developed and established on a sound basis by our predecessors. Why, the fact of the matter is that during their régime, during the greater part of it, that industry was in a very sore plight. When we came into office I think not more than one-sixth of the boots and shoes worn by the Irish people were made in this country. I think I do not make an exaggerated claim when I say that now almost 90 per cent. of the boots and shoes worn by our people are made in this country.

And yet the employment has not been doubled.

Deputy Dillon went on to express concern as to what the effects of this tariff would be upon this great industry which he claimed his associates had built up. The fact of the matter is that those engaged in that industry are perfectly satisfied with the arrangements that have been made for the establishment of these new tanneries. They, too, appreciate the importance of having here some suitable supply of raw material, just the same as the Irish Leather Goods Company, which was dragged into the debate, will benefit indirectly by reason of the fact that as a by-product of some of these tanneries the raw materials of their industry will be made here. So, too, with those engaged in boot manufacture—they are quite satisfied to see tanneries established here. In fact, some of the boot factories have an interest in the project, and I am sure they would not support and finance and help to establish an undertaking which they would regard as being inimical to their main industry. Deputy McGilligan, following on Deputy Dillon's lines, stated that we had treated the native tanning industry here with such disregard for its interests that some of the firms had closed down. I pressed Deputy McGilligan to give me the name of an Irish tannery that had been closed down since we came into office. When I pressed him he said "the firm in Limerick."

He said that the firm in Limerick had been one of those that had closed down.

No. I am trying to put the Minister right as to what Deputy McGilligan said. Of course, if the Minister does not want to be put right, I shall not insist; but what Deputy McGilligan definitely made clear was not that O'Callaghan's, of Limerick, had closed down, but that they had made complaints. He distinctly said they had not closed down.

On this matter my word is as good as Deputy O'Sullivan's.

The words that Deputy McGilligan used were that a firm had been closed down. I challenged him to name that firm, before he got away from the point. He did not mention O'Callaghan's, but he said "the firm in Limerick." What is the fact? Since we came into office, since there was a Party occupying these benches that was concerned with the development of Irish industry, the production capacity of that firm in Limerick has been more than doubled. That is the firm that we were told by Deputy McGilligan had been closed down. He said not merely that, but that this native firm was going to be replaced—that we were bringing in proposals for the establishment of another sweat shop. Does the Deputy remember that? The implication was that this firm in Limerick which had been closed down, according to Deputy McGilligan, but which, in fact, has doubled its capacity, was going to be replaced by another sweat shop employing, he rather implied, female and child labour, knowing, as everybody knows, that employment in the tanning industry is almost entirely confined to males.

Then we had Deputy O'Sullivan. I do not know whether members of the House have sometimes seen alleged humorous films in which, when small boys get into trouble, they release at an opportune moment a quadruped that emits a very unpleasant effiuvia and, under cover of the discomfort experienced, they escape. I think Deputy O'Sullivan in this debate has doubled for that quadruped. He started by making a reference to Deputy Briscoe. He said that what he was concerned about, like Deputy Dillon, was the effect which this was going to have on subsidiary industries. He alleged that Deputy Briscoe—and Deputy Briscoe is behind me now and he can tell what he said—had used a phrase which implied that we regarded the boot manufacturing industry, this industry which manufactures now 4,9000,000 pairs of boots approximately, as a subsidiary industry. What Deputy Briscoe did say was that he regarded the manufactured leather goods industry as a subsidiary industry. But Deputy O'Sullivan got up, and I was told when I was endeavouring to correct his misstatement and to allow the House to know what Deputy Briscoe really said, that I ought to behave myself, that I ought to conduct myself, that I could not keep from interrupting, and all in order that Deputy O'Sullivan might cover up his tracks and make a speech on a foundation of mendacity that has rarely been equalled in this House—because the whole point of Deputy O'Sullivan's statement, the keystone of it, was his assertion that Deputy Briscoe had stated that the boot manufacturing industry was a subsidiary industry to the tanning industry in this country.

Then, he went on to say that the House would be interested to know whether the Minister for Industry and Commerce had inquired of the boot manufacturers as to what their attitude towards this proposal of ours was going to be; and whether those of them engaged in the industry were going to be subjected to any inconvenience by reason of the fact that until the tanneries came up to full production they might have to import certain boot components under licence. He went on to say that he was aware that numbers of them were so affected, implying thereby that more than one had been seriously inconvenienced and held up in their manufacturing process, because they could not get component parts. The Deputy saw that he was going to be asked to give the names of more than one factory that had been so held up, and immediately he covered his tracks and said that he knew of one case where a certain person had been seriously inconvenienced because of that. Again, knowing that he was going to be asked to give particulars of that one instance, he proceeded to utter the slanderous and false statement that he has made so often here in this House. He implied that, with the powerful Opposition on the other side of the House, and with independent members sitting here in this House, and the Labour Party ready to protest against any discrimination of one citizen against another or against the victimisation of any citizen, these people were afraid to protest because they knew that the wrath of the Minister would be visited upon them. That might be all very well, and some people might believe it, if it was some poor individual who was stated to be under that apprehension. But we are dealing now with a powerful, well-organised industry with huge resources behind it. The boot manufacturers have an active and strong organisation. Does Deputy O'Sullivan expect the House, or anyone, to believe that if any one of the members of that association was placed at the disadvantage that he alleges, he would be afraid to come to the Minister, or that he would not go to his own association and ask that association to take up this question of inconvenience under which he was suffering and to put it before the Minister?

I do not believe for a moment that Deputy O'Sullivan believes a single word of what he said. He gets up here and speaks in a tone of oily hypocrisy, twisting and misrepresenting the words of Deputies, and putting words into their mouths that they never used, and then he talks of good manners, good breeding or good conduct. He is well fitted to sit on the same side as the Deputy who got up and sneered at those to whom he owned he owed his life.

That is utterly untrue.

Kelly, Burke and Shea!

The Minister might get away from that aspect of the matter.

I do not know whether there is anything else to be said on this motion. I endeavoured to confine myself to things that I thought were relevant; but if I touched on things that might be irrelevant it was because advantage was taken to misrepresent this proposal to the people of the country at large. The fact remains, whether a man's name ends in "Berg" or "Isaacs" or commences with "Fitz" or "Mac"—whatever the prefix or the suffix—that this is a proposal that will establish four new tanneries at Gorey, Carrick-on-Suir, Dungarvan and Passage West. Deputy Mulcahy's amendment, if approved, would prevent those four towns having the benefit of this new industry and would not alone check the development of the tanning industry but prevent the general development of this State.

Whatever the purpose for which the amendment was put down it has failed in the one purposed I had in mind. I was told by the Minister for Finance, on 31st October, 1935, that the duty that was being imposed, was imposed for the purpose of increasing production. We have not got the slightest idea of the volume of industrial production which has been created by this duty. The Minister has compiled information as to the general types of leather, and the different types of leather, brought into the country, but even with that as a basis he has made no attempt to give us any idea of the volume of production which will be undertaken in this country as a result of the Order. He has not given the slightest idea of the number of persons who will be given employment as a result of the Order. So that the Minister can be quite satisfied that this nefarious amendment has not dragged, either from himself or any member of his Party, the information which this House wants, and the information that I endeavoured to see that the House should get. We have not got it. We know the 37½ per cent. is going on to these additional types of leather, but we are given no guarantee that the people who want this type of leather, to keep in production for the types of boots and shoes they are making, are going to get it. The Minister's answer is: "Do you think that a big group of boot manufacturers are not going to get anything they want in that particular line?" Let him not tell us that the boot manufacturers have already developed into such a solid combine that they are able to control the whole position in this country; and do not try to persuade us that there is not a certain amount of competition still among the boot manufacturers in the country. We have got no information.

With regard to the other matter that Deputy MacDermot said quite rightly he thought the House had heard enough about, I tell the Minister for Finance that the Jewish community in this country in the past were an orderly, decent community and no one had anything to say against them. To-day they suffer from being defended by Deputy Briscoe and from the type of people who are washed into the ports of the Free State owing to the Minister's tariff policy. I am just as determined to defend the interests of the Jewish community as any other section, whether against Deputy Briscoe's defence or the interference of the new importations that are coming in. The Minister for Industry and Commerce, at any rate, knows that members of the Jewish community have been driven out of businesses they established here before the new invasion. They have been done out of that business in the interests of newcomers. The Minister for Industry and Commerce knows about that; he does not want discussion about that. If the Minister for Finance is interested in the people about whom he speaks, he might attempt to defend them from the inside; in the meantime, we will try to defend them from the outside.

Question put: "That the Reference proposed to be deleted stand."
The Committee divided: Tá, 63; Níl, 38.

Tá.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Anthony, Richard.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Carty, Frank.
  • Concannon, Helena.
  • Corbett, Edmond.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Corkery, Daniel.
  • Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
  • Crowley, Timothy.
  • Daly, Denis.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kilroy, Michael.
  • Kissane, Eamonn.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • Lynch, James B.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Conor Alexander.
  • Moane, Edward.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Murphy, Patrick Stephen.
  • Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Doherty, Hugh.
  • Donnelly, Eamon.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Gibbons, Seán.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Hales, Thomas.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
  • Houlihan, Patrick.
  • Keely, Séamus P.
  • Kehoe, Patrick.
  • Kelly, James Patrick.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
  • O'Doherty, Joseph.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Pearse, Margaret Mary.
  • Rice, Edward.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick Joseph.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
  • Ward, Francis C.

Níl.

  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Broderick, William Joseph.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Costello, John Aloysius.
  • Daly, Patrick.
  • Davis, Michael.
  • Desmond, William.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dolan, James Nicholas.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Good, John.
  • Hogan, Patrick (Galway).
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McGovern, Patrick.
  • McGuire, James Ivan.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Minch, Sydney B.
  • Morrisroe, James.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, James Edward.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • O'Neill, Eamonn.
  • O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Redmond, Bridget Mary.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Rice, Vincent.
  • Rogers, Patrick James.
  • Rowlette, Robert James.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Little and Smith; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Bennett.
Question declared carried.

I move amendment No. 7:—

To delete Reference No. 9 and all references thereto in columns Nos. 2, 3 and 4.

I should like to assure the Minister that my mind is not made up on this.

Will the Deputy vote against it then?

I put down this amendment for the purpose of having a discussion on the proposal to put a Customs duty of 33? per cent. on articles made of iron and steel that are laminated springs which are suitable for use as parts of vehicles, leaves which are component parts of such springs, axles, axle-boxes, axle-arms, etc., windscreens and component parts of windscreens. With a view to helping myself and the House to understand the matter, I put down four questions addressed to the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Minister for Finance, but neither the Minister for Industry nor the Minister for Finance, although they have apparently gone into this particular matter, could tell us that the duty imposed by the Order has been imposed for the purpose of creating industrial production and that a new industry is to be established which will create new employment. Although they have carried on a discussion that enabled them to make that statement in the House, they have not in reply to questions been able to tell us what the amount or the nature of the production is going to be, or what amount of employment is going to be given in the country. We simply have a negative answer to any questions on these points. I do not think the House should impose a duty of 33? per cent. on these articles on negative statements of that kind from Ministers as to the employment given and the nature of the production. If the Minister wants the House to agree to the proposal, and to allow this tariff to stand, he should give the House some information about this new industry, what the nature of the production is and the employment that is to be given.

I am glad to hear, although I am perfectly certain that the event will disprove the Deputy's statement, that he has not yet made up his mind to oppose this tariff because it is the first time, in the course of the debate on the Schedule to the Bill, that the Deputy has even made a pretence of having an open mind on the question of tariffs. However, I think that possibly there may be some substance in his profession of possessing an open mind on this Reference because this tariff differs slightly from those imposed by other Orders. It covers a considerable number of articles, most of which have been already protected, but in the case of most of them that protection has been at the rate of 50 per cent. It is due to the arrangements which have been made that we are able to reduce the tariff to the general level of 33? per cent. and at the same time enable a new factory to be established at Wexford. It is not possible, nor do I think it is desirable, for me to make any quantitative statement as to the amount of employment which will be given by the factory. I can assure the Deputy that it will be appreciable and that it will certainly justify the step which we are now asking the House to take. Most of the articles covered by the tariff are articles which require a certain industrial tradition to manufacture successfully, and I should say 98 per cent. of which, have been imported into this country. There is no doubt whatever that our people, particularly the people in Wexford, who have a tradition in these matters—they have been engaged in a kindred industry for a number of years—will be able to produce there articles which will not be inferior to those which we are importing.

May I say, being familiar with the reason why this tariff is being applied, that I think it is only right that I should tell the House what I know about the industry established in Wexford. The factory is almost completed and the company expect to enter upon manufacture early in the new year. In a conversation which I had with the managing director about two months ago, he assured me that all adult labour would be employed and that anything between 500 and 1,000 employees would be working in this factory inside about a month from now.

I do not understand how it is that the Deputy for Wexford is so much more able than the Minister for Finance to give information with regard to the tariff. One would expect that the Minister for Finance, in presenting his case to the House, would be able to tell us something of what has developed in Wexford. He simply tells us that we may take it from him that the employment which will be given as a result of the tariff will be appreciable, and that, of the items mentioned here, some are already subject to a tariff of 50 per cent. I should like to test the Minister's veracity a little bit by asking him which of these items is at the present moment subject to a 50 per cent. tariff.

Parts of horse-drawn vehicles for example.

Nonsense. Will the Minister say when the tariff of 50 per cent. was put on?

If the Deputy wants information of that detailed nature, I am afraid he will have to rely on the proper procedure. Let him put down a Parliamentary question and he will get it. I am not a walking book of reference on Customs and Excise duties.

I know that very well, but the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Minister for Finance make this House feel that if they and every official in their Departments were walking books of reference the House would not get the information if it was inconvenient to publish the information. The Minister is prepared to admit that by a smile. However, with regard to this matter the House is now put in this position by Deputy Corish, that he knows of new developments in the town of Wexford arising out of the framing of this Order and that they are going to provide new employment in the town of Wexford for 500 to 1,000 men. The presentation of the case that this House has got from the Minister is simply what I have said, that employment is going to be appreciable. I, for one, am going to oppose the treating of important matters connected with Irish industry in this way. Even if this House is only going to be a registering machine for the decisions of the Minister for Industry and Commerce or the Minister for Finance, it should get the information that these Ministers have when they are dealing with matters of such importance to our people as the development of industry.

I do not know what I have to reply to, but I must remind the House of this fact, that members of the Government, when they are discussing the concerns of private individuals, have to speak with a certain reserve. I quite agree that members on the Opposition Benches feel themselves at liberty to talk in most extravagant fashion about private individuals, dragging in their names quite unnecessarily in the course of debate, and coupling them with "Kelly, Burke and Shea."

Not on this amendment.

But there is a certain difference, both in regard to conduct and vocabulary, between members of the Government Benches and members of the Opposition.

When we refer to private individuals and private concerns we have to remember that these people might not like their names to be bandied to and fro across the House in the manner in which Deputy Mulcahy and Deputy McGilligan sometimes think fit to endeavour to do. Therefore, I am not in a position to come here and expose everything that relates to a private concern. The Deputy has had the benefit and advantage of hearing a member of the House, one of the Deputies for the constituency of Wexford, say what he thinks of this new industry and what he has been told about it. Yet, we were told by Deputy Mulcahy that he had an open mind on this matter when he put down this amendment, using the fact that Ministers have to discuss these matters with a certain amount of reserve as an excuse for carrying out the policy of his Party and opposing the establishment of this industry which we are told is, at any rate, going to give a considerable amount of employment in Wexford.

I do not regard this as a matter concerning a private individual. When the Dáil is asked to impose a substantial duty on a regular list of materials coming into this country and to do that for the purpose of developing sound Irish industry here, I do not regard that as a matter that in any way should be cloaked over as a private transaction between the Minister for Finance and some private individual who is going to run the industry, or between the Minister for Industry and Commerce and that particular person. The very fact that a Deputy of this House feels that he can get up here and say that at least 500 persons are going to be employed in Wexford as a result of this Order makes this House all the more dissatisfied with the treatment of the matter by the Ministers. Why could not the Ministers tell us that? Will the Minister for Finance tell us that what Deputy Corish has said is substantially true to his knowledge? Will he go as far as that? The Minister will not. The Minister simply says: "Here is the tariff; the employment will be appreciable; I cannot tell you how many of these things were ever used or how many of them will ever be made; I cannot tell you anything about the cost of them, the employment that will be given or the circumstances under which people will be employed."

Again, I want to say that this is not a private transaction between any Wexford man or Wexford company or between a Galway man and a Galway company and the Minister. It is the taking of a public decision here on a matter affecting the general public of the country. I oppose dealing with these matters in this particular way and will continue to do so. If Ministers were interested really in the proper development of Irish industry and in educating the House as to what can be done by means of tariffs to develop Irish industry, they would become more expansive, both on the question of their difficulties in the matter as well as on the question of the information that they have been able to acquire from people who come to them looking for tariffs, or to whom they go asking for assistance, in a commercial way, in the development of Irish industry here.

Actions speak more loudly than words. The people of this country can go through the Twenty-Six Counties and see evidence of our handiwork in the new industries which are springing up, and I am perfectly certain that they will be much more satisfied to see the factories than to hear all the information which Deputy Mulcahy thinks he ought to have on these matters. We will have to be taken on our good faith and judged by the results.

And hear something about it at the Ard-Fheis.

I understand that the Minister contemplates some alteration in the licensing arrangements. I put a question about this earlier to the Minister for Industry and Commerce relating to another matter. What I want to ask the Minister is this: if the demand for these articles cannot be met by the new factory, will the Minister issue licences to import to satisfy that demand? Will the Minister say what is the nature of the alterations which he contemplates in the licensing arrangements?

None in relation to this duty.

The reason that I asked the question is this: I think I read recently that, in reply to a question put down by Deputy Mulcahy, the Minister stated that certain alterations in the licensing arrangements were contemplated.

That related to windscreens, but I gather that no licences will be issued in relation to windscreens.

Surely, the Minister must agree that, if certain articles are in demand and cannot be supplied by the factory concerned, business should not be held up by reason of that fact!

Originally, windscreens were included in this proposal, but now they can come in as motor-car components, as part of the motor-car to be assembled here. The matter of replacements is being discussed with the motor assemblers.

So that we are discussing an Order already changed?

No. There is a licensing provision in the Order, but it is proposed to discontinue the operation of that provision in relation to windscreens for the reason stated, that windscreens can come in as motor-car components, as part of the motor-car to be assembled here. The matter of replacements is, as I have said, being discussed with the motor assemblers.

Question put: "That Reference No. 9 stand part of the Schedule."
The Committee divided: Tá, 61; Níl, 34.

Tá.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Concannon, Helena.
  • Corbett, Edmond.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Corkery, Daniel.
  • Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
  • Crowley, Timothy.
  • Daly, Denis.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Doherty, Hugh.
  • Donnelly, Eamon.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Geoghegan, James.
  • Gibbons, Seán.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Hales, Thomas.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Keely, Séamus P.
  • Kehoe, Patrick.
  • Kelly, James Patrick.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kilroy, Michael.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Kissane, Eamonn.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • Lynch, James B.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Conor Alexander.
  • Moane, Edward.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Murphy, Patrick Stephen.
  • Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
  • Norton, William.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
  • O'Doherty, Joseph.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Pearse, Margaret Mary.
  • Rice, Edward.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick Joseph.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
  • Ward, Francis C.

Níl.

  • Anthony, Richard.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Costello, John Aloysius.
  • Daly, Patrick.
  • Davis, Michael.
  • Desmond, William.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry Morgan.
  • Dolan, James Nicholas.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Good, John.
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McGovern, Patrick.
  • McGuire, James Ivan.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Morrisroe, James.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, James Edward.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • O'Neill, Eamonn.
  • Redmond, Bridget Mary.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Rogers, Patrick James.
  • Rowlette, Robert James.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Little and Smith; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Bennett.
Question declared carried.
Question proposed: "That the Schedule be the Schedule to the Bill."

With regard to Reference No. 1, which seeks to confirm an Order made in April last, putting a Customs duty at the rate of 1/- the pound on all butter imported into the Saorstát; putting a Customs duty at the rate of 2/- the pound on all dried and powdered milk, and a Customs duty at the rate of 1/- the pound on all cheese—the latter a duty which was subsequently amended by an Order which we are now asked to confirm, which reduced the duty of 1/- to 4d.—will the Minister say what was the purpose of these Orders, and if they were intended to increase agricultural production and agricultural employment? What actually has been the result?

The purpose of these Orders is, I think, quite clear on their face. It is to protect the dairying industry and the cheese-making industry, which we have succeeded in re-establishing. The purpose of the last Order the Deputy has mentioned is to reduce the emergency duty originally imposed when the industry was being revived, which, we are satisfied, is, in the present condition of the industry, excessive.

In taking pride in being able to reduce the Customs duty on cheese, will the Minister say what employment is given in the manufacture of cheese and what increase in the employment was given by the levying of 1/- the pound in April last?

I am not prepared to say that there has been any great increase in the dairying industry, but we have, at least, kept it alive. The Deputy, as well as everybody else in the House, is aware that there has been considerable development of the cheese-making industry and that the present output is of the order of 4,000 cwts. I do not think that any person who has seen what we can do or who himself has tested our products would try to contend that our policy in protecting that industry, or the extent to which we have protected it, has not been justified.

In other words, the Minister knows nothing about the matter.

Everything.

Will the Minister deny that the manufacture of cheese has diminished?

I am not prepared to deny that it "had" diminished, but it is on the up grade again.

Is it as a result of reducing the Customs duty from 1/- to 4d. that the manufacture is on the up grade?

What has brought about the increase of which the Minister speaks?

The protection which we originally afforded the industry and the improved quality of our products.

Why did it go down in between? I gathered that there was a fall in the interval.

I do not think that Deputy Belton wished to imply that production had gone down in the interval between the imposition of the original Order and the imposition of the amended Order. What he did mean to imply was that, before we took the industry in hands, production had declined very considerably.

There is an amendment to the duty on grass seeds. The Emergency Imposition of Duties Order, No. 75, purports to put a charge at the rate of 20/- a cwt. on imported grass seeds in lieu of the duty already in force. What is the effect of this Order intended to be?

I gather that we are capable of producing and are, in fact, producing all the grass seed which we require. Due to various conditions on the Continent, there is a threat of very largely increased importation of grass seed. This increased duty is necessary to protect our native grass-seed producers.

The Minister referred to "this increased duty." I understood that this amendment was to effect a decrease in the duty?

That rather reverses the argument.

It is just as good as it was.

Has a misunderstood fact not some reaction on the argument?

I am not responsible for Deputy Mulcahy's understanding.

I understand that this is a reduction of the duty on grass seed from £2 a cwt. to £1 a cwt.

Is that so? We want to know what we are voting for.

The Deputy will have to consult the earlier Order.

Has the Minister consulted it?

Is it up or down?

Either way.

Is not this shocking?

Does the Minister intend to buy thrashing mills to enable this grass seed to be thrashed from the hay, when mown? Is there any intention to give grants for the purpose?

That question does not arise.

It is just as reasonable as the Minister's argument.

The main point that emerges from the discussion on grass seed is that the Minister knows nothing, good, bad or indifferent, about a matter which he comes into this House to deal with. It is the same with the industrial matters he attempted to put before the House as it is with the grass seed.

Would this have anything to do with the new navy?

Question put and agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment.

When is it proposed to take the Report Stage?

To-morrow.

Report Stage for to-morrow?

Would not the Minister need more time to find out whether this duty is up or down?

The Deputy is taking a great interest in grass and grass seed. He will never run short of fodder.

We have had a lot of hayseed to-night. Is there a motion to take the Report Stage to-morrow?

The announcement was made and no objection was taken.

I asked a question and I object to the Order being put down for to-morrow. I want to know if we can have a division on that.

The Deputy could raise that question to-morrow.

I prefer to raise it now. We are asked to put down the Report Stage for to-morrow. I think the House generally orders these things.

The Chair assumed that there was no objection.

I distinctly object to taking it to-morrow.

The Minister for Finance has left the House and I have no information on the matter. Since the Minister stated that he wanted the Report Stage to-morrow, I move that it be taken to-morrow. I myself do not know anything about it.

Neither did he, but that does not matter.

What is the urgency if some of those Orders have four or five months to run?

I suggest that the Report Stage be taken this day week.

Question put: "That the Report Stage be taken to-morrow."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 61; Níl, 28.

Tá.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Doherty, Hugh.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Geoghegan, James.
  • Gibbons, Seán.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Hales, Thomas.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
  • Keely, Séamus P.
  • Kehoe, Patrick.
  • Kelly, James Patrick.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kilroy, Michael.
  • Kissane, Eamonn.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • Lynch, James B.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • Carty, Frank.
  • Concannon, Helena.
  • Corbett, Edmond.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Corkery, Daniel.
  • Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
  • Crowley, Timothy.
  • Daly, Denis.
  • Maguire, Conor Alexander.
  • Moane, Edward.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Murphy, Patrick Stephen.
  • Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
  • Norton, William.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
  • O'Doherty, Joseph.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Pearse, Margaret Mary.
  • Rice, Edward.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick Joseph.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
  • Ward, Francis C.

Níl.

  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Broderick, William Joseph.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Costello, John Aloysius.
  • Daly, Patrick.
  • Desmond, William.
  • Dockrell, Henry Morgan.
  • Dolan, James Nicholas.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Good, John.
  • Hogan, Patrick (Galway).
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McGovern, Patrick.
  • McGuire, James Ivan.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Morrisroe, James.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • O'Neill, Eamonn.
  • O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Rice, Vincent.
  • Rowlette, Robert James.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Little and Smith; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Bennett.
Question declared carried.
Report Stage ordered for to-morrow, Friday.
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