Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 12 Dec 1935

Vol. 59 No. 17

Committee on Finance. - Vote 44—National Health Insurance.

Minister for Local Government and Public Health (Mr. O Ceallaigh)

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim Bhreise ná raghaidh thar £10 (deich bpúint) chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1936, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Rialtais

Aitiúla agus Sláinte Puiblí i dtaobh Riaracháin na nAchtanna um Arachas Sláinte Náisiúnta, 1911 go 1934, agus an Achta um Pinsin do Bhaintreacha agus do Dhílleachtaithe, 1935, agus chun Ilsíntiúisí agus Ildeontaisí, ar a n-áirmhítear Deontaisí áirithe i gCabhair, mar gheall ar Chostas Sochar agus Costaisí Riaracháin fé sna hActanna um Arachas Sláinte Náisiúnta.

That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £10 (ten pounds) l.e granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1936, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health in connection with the administration of the National Health Insurance Acts, 1911 to 1934, and of the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Act, 1935, and for sundry Contributions and Grants, including certain Grants-in-Aid, in respect of the cost of benefits and expenses of administration under the National Health Insurance Acts.

The Widows' and Orphans'. Pensions Act was passed on 2nd August last, and immediately thereafter steps were taken to establish an office and to organise a staff to deal with its administration. Claim forms were made available at all post offices, and explanatory leaflets issued in which possible claimants were advised as to the conditions under which non-contributory pensions might be paid, and the procedure to be followed in claiming them. Arrangements were made for the furnishing of cheap certificates of birth, marriage and death. Early in September claims began to be received at the rate of about 200 per day. In order that delay in dealing with claims might be avoided, notices in the daily Press were inserted to induce claimants to forward claims as early as possible, and the number of claims received rose steadily to a maximum of about 400 per day in the middle of October. Thereafter they fell to an average of about 130 per day, at which they now stand.

The total number of claims received to 6th December is 19,591, of which 19,197 are for widows' pensions, and 394 for orphans' pensions. Of these 4,870 are cases in which it has been decided that non-contributory pensions cannot be granted. The principal reason for rejection in these cases is that the widow is under 60, and has no dependent children. It will be remembered that the Act provides that non-contributory pensions are not payable to widows who have not attained the age of 60 unless they have at least one child who is under the age of 14, or a child over 14 and less than 16 who is attending school, or is physically or mentally incapacitated. Some 2,500 claims have been rejected because this condition has not been fulfilled. In some 1,400 other cases it has not been established that the late husband of the widow was insured under the National Health Insurance Acts at the date of death. This condition is essential except in cases where the late husband was the occupier of a small holding not exceeding £8 in valuation. Claims had also to be rejected where the valuation of the holding exceeded £8 or where the widow had ceased to reside on the holding. The number of rejections under this head is approximately 600.

There were also some 1,330 cases where the claim forms were incorrectly completed, or were not properly signed or witnessed, or where additional information from the claimant was required before the claim could be proceeded with. In most of these cases it appeared that even though the claims were not properly made, the applicant was obviously not entitled to pension, and was so informed. The balance of 13,391 includes 2,316 cases recently received, leaving 11,075 cases in which a prima facie title to pension has been established.

Further investigation of these cases is however necessary. A large proportion of the husbands in respect of whom claims are made have died many years ago, and it is necessary to verify that at the date of death they were members of a national health insurance society or were insured persons. This has necessitated search amongst the old records of approved societies now in the possession of the Unified Society. In many cases it has not been found possible to establish membership of an approved society, and alternative inquiries were necessary from employers as to the nature of the occupation of the deceased husband. It will be appreciated that this is often a difficult and laborious investigation. In addition, many applicants have been unable to furnish certificates of birth, marriage or death. In these cases the Department has had to arrange for the search of records in possession of the Registrar-General, or to obtain the required information from other countries.

Mr. Anthony

I do not like to interrupt the Minister, but this is a very important statement, and it is very difficult to follow him. I really pity the official reporter. The Minister spoke very rapidly, and although I endeavoured to follow him as well as I possibly could, with a limited knowledge of shorthand, I could not follow him, and I am sure that is the position of every other Deputy in the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy requests the Minister to speak more slowly, I presume?

Mr. Anthony

Yes. As a matter of fact, I wanted to take down some of the figures with reference to the number of persons who have applied, and so on, but I have been quite unable to follow the Minister.

Mr. Corry

You were asleep.

Mr. Anthony

Most of you fellows have been asleep for the last eight years.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I did not think I had half the capacity of the Deputy for rapid utterance.

Mr. Norton

It is the accent the Deputy cannot understand.

Mr. Anthony

I would not like to be reporting him when I was a young fellow.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

Does the Deputy wish that I should repeat any part of it?

Mr. Anthony

Oh, no. I have too much respect for old age.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

Does the Deputy mean that as a compliment? Furthermore, the pensions for which claims are now being received are non-contributory, and it is prescribed in the Act that such claims are payable subject to a means test. It is necessary, therefore, in all the cases referred to, not only to verify the statements made in the claims, by inquiry from the Unified Society and by local inquiry from the rating authorities, but also to investigate the means of the applicants. For this purpose investigation officers under the control of the Revenue Commissioners have been appointed, whose duty it is by direct personal inquiry to verify the title of the claimants to pensions and to report on the value of the means possessed. 11,075 claims have been forwarded to these officers for investigation, and in about 50 per cent. of these cases simultaneous inquiries are being made by the National Health Insurance Society or by National Health Insurance inspectors, into the insurance history of the late husband. Up to date some 3,900 cases have been reported on by investigation officers, and in 1,050 of these it is still necessary to establish the insurance of the late husband. In 1,569 cases awards of pension have been made.

The large number of rejections in comparison with the number of awards so far made will be readily understood when it is appreciated that in the large majority of cases in which pension was refused, no local inquiry whatever was necessary. In all cases where an award is likely local investigation is necessary. It might be mentioned that although every effort was made to induce claimants to make early claims, many claims are now being made which might reasonably have been made some months ago. The result is that work which should have been spread over two or three months has now to be concentrated into one month. Claimants who have delayed until now to make claims which might have been made previously must expect that precedence will be given to claims which were made in reasonable time. Arrangements have been made under which investigation officers are now to give priority to this work and for the consequent awards to be made as expeditiously as possible after their reports are received. Payments of pensions will in every case be made as from 3rd January next, whether or not the case is decided before that date. The Department has already made arrangements for the printing of special pension books for issue to widows and orphans, and as reports are received from investigation officers awards are being made and steps taken to have books ready for issue by the end of December.

Apart from the non-contributory pensions in respect of which claims are now being received, the Department is also making arrangements for the contributory scheme which comes into force in January next. New health and pensions stamps have been designed and are being printed; arrangements have been made for issuing explanatory leaflets to insured persons and their employers; regulations are being made under the Act; explanatory memoranda are being prepared for issue to persons in excepted employments and to their employers, and to persons who may be entitled to become voluntary contributors, under the Act. Every effort is being made to ensure not only that non-contributory pensions will begin to be paid early in January but that the contributory scheme will come smoothly into operation by the same date.

Mr. Norton

May I ask the Minister just two questions? I gathered from the statement which he made that pensions have been awarded in 1,569 cases. I am not sure whether that is the total number of cases in which pensions have been awarded out of the 19,591 claims received.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I stated that the balance of 13,391 includes 2,316 cases recently received, leaving 11,075 cases in which a prima facie title to pension has been established.

Mr. Norton

The Minister went on to say that 50 per cent. of that number had been sent to investigation officers for a report, that they have reported on 3,900 cases and that in 1,050 of these cases it was still necessary to make further inquiries to establish the insurance status of the deceased husband. He then said that in 1,569 cases pensions had been awarded.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

Exactly.

Mr. Norton

Is that the total number of pensions awarded out of all the claims received?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

So far it is.

Mr. Dillon

I want to ask the Minister a few questions on this Estimate. We fully recognise that in a scheme of this character difficulties are bound to arise and obscurities to manifest themselves, but I should like to know what exactly is the position of the widow of a man who was an insured person under the National Health Insurance Society, who then for one reason or another ceased to be an employed person, and remained living in very straitened circumstances on the contributions made by his grown-up children. That man died and left a widow over 60 years of age. At the time of his death, he was not an insured person, but throughout his whole working life, since the Insurance Acts were passed, he was an insured person. Has that woman a claim to a widow's pension?

The next difficulty is a matter about which I sent the Minister a note across the House a few moments ago. I do not want him to think that I am pressing him now in this matter because it may be necessary to make inquiries to clarify the position, but it is right that the House should be informed of the question so that the Minister can give me an answer in public, if he is in a position to do so. It is alleged from certain parts of the Gaeltacht that when widows' pensions are being allotted, the £2 which the mother of Irish-speaking children receives in respect of each Irish-speaking child in her house from the Department of Education is taken into consideration in assessing the widowed mother's means for the purpose of these pension claims. I cannot imagine that it is the desire of the Department of Education or of the Department of Local Government and Public Health that these grants in respect to Irish-speaking children should be assessed as income of a widowed woman who is dependent very largely on her widow's pension for subsistence.

I observe that the increased Estimate for salaries, wages and allowances is £10,000. I appreciate that the officers of the Department of Local Government and Public Health, in certain branches in any case, have plenty to do, but surely the work of putting this scheme in motion could have been so distributed amongst the existing personnel as to avoid an annual charge of £10,000 for salaries, wages and allowances? Mind you, it has gone out of fashion in the last two or three years in this country to consider the question of bureaucracy and the expenses of bureaucracy. It has become the fashion now to welcome expenditure of any kind, but there was a time in the administration of public finance when an increase of expenditure was looked at askance by Parliament or the Oireachtas. I hope that that spirit is not entirely dead. I venture to invite the Minister for Local Government and Public Health to explain to the House how he can justify a charge of £10,000 over and above what was spent prior to the introduction of this Act, for the administration of the National Health Insurance Act. There is a sum of £75,211 per annum for the administration of National Health Insurance. That is only under one sub-head— salaries, wages and allowances.

Mr. Norton

On a point of order, are we discussing Estimate No. 44 or Estimate No. 73?

An Ceann Comhairle

No. 44.

Mr. Dillon

The leader of the Labour Party——

Mr. Norton

I am not questioning the Deputy at all; I am questioning the speech which has been made on Estimate No. 44, as it seemed to me to apply more to Estimate No. 73.

Mr. Dillon

If the leader of the Labour Party would look at the end of Estimate No. 44 he would see that the token Vote in No. 44 is for the purpose of permitting the Minister to increase the expenditure on salaries, wages and allowances in his Department for the purpose of administering this Act. It is just for that reason that I have ventured to speak on this Estimate—it is really only a token Vote but it reveals this estimated increased expenditure on salaries, wages and allowances—to direct the attention of the House to this particular sum and to the general tendency steadily to increase the personnel and the emoluments of the Civil Service. Mind you, when we see a token Vote of this kind showing an increase of £10,000 on salaries, wages and allowances we ought to remember that in increasing the personnel, we not only render the State liable for the salaries set out on the face of this Estimate but we also render the State liable for the cost-of-living bonus which is attached to the salary of every civil servant in this State. Deputies will have noticed— some of them with amazement, others with satisfaction—that the cost-of-living figure has risen six points a few days ago. That means that the cost-of-living bonus of every civil servant is going to rise proportionately. I shall take another occasion to discuss the reasons for that rise in the cost of living, but I think it is very necessary that the House should bear in mind, when called upon to sanction a further expenditure of £10,000 in salaries, that this is just a drop in the bucket.

Mr. Morrissey

The rules of debate, unfortunately, rather limit the discussion on this matter. There are many matters in connection with the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Act which I should like to raise but, of course, cannot raise on this Vote. There are, however a few points regarding the administration of the Act on which I should like to get some information from the Minister. The Minister told us that hundreds of claims were submitted in which the forms were improperly filled. Any Deputy who has seen the forms sent out to be completed by widows will not be surprised at that. The only surprise to me was that instead of hundreds there were not thousands. If the form were drawn up deliberately for the purpose of confusing the applicant, it could not have been more successfully done. I realise that it is necessary that as much information as possible should be extracted from the applicant, but there are certain questions in this form which seem to me to be ridiculous and unanswerable —a person could not give a correct answer to them. For instance, the applicants are asked to state the amount of money or assistance they expect to receive during the coming 12 months. I suggest that it would be utterly impossible for the average applicant to answer that question with any degree of accuracy. At most, it could be only merely guess-work. It seems to me that it is only waste of time and money to have questions such as that on the form.

With regard to birth or baptismal certificates, there is the same difficulty that we have had for a number of years in connection with old age pension claims. I should like to know if the Minister proposes to take any steps in the matter, or what machinery he proposes to set up to accept something in place of that certificate which, through no fault of the applicant, it may be impossible to obtain. I should like the Minister to consider having some machinery which would not delay unnecessarily an applicant's claim, because the person is in the unfortunate position of being unable to get documentary proof of the date of birth.

Now we come to the real snag in the whole thing, just as in connection with old age pensions and unemployment assistance, and it is proving a very big snag, namely, the means test. I should like if the Minister would state if the same officials who are investigating means in connection with old age pensions and unemployment assistance are dealing with this, and whether any attempt has been made by the Department to see that means will be assessed on some sort of a uniform basis, because the amount of the pension may be determined by the particular district in which a person happens to live. Officials will assess means at varying figures. A person living in one district may have the means assessed at a figure which will mean that she will only get 1/- or 2/- in pension. If she were living in another district and the means were investigated by another inspector, she might get 4/- or 5/-.

It seems to me that that is very unsatisfactory, and that steps should be taken to deal with the matter. I realise that it is very difficult, but the Minister should go as far as he possibly can to see that there will be some kind of a uniform basis. From my experience of some of the assessments made both under this Act and under the Old Age Pensions Act, I seriously suggest that the Minister ought to take some steps to see that the persons making this assessment will have some regard to the real value of the means which they are assessing. I know, and I am sure it is known to other Deputies, that inspectors put a value on certain things, such as poultry or live stock, which is not their true value, and persons are to that extent deprived of what they are lawfully entitled to.

I should also like the Minister to give us, if not now, at some later date, the exact figure of the number of widows under 60 years of age without dependent children, whose claims were turned down and, if possible, the number of widows between 50 and 60 years of age who would otherwise come under this Act, because there are hundreds of widows, perhaps thousands, who, because they knew they were debarred under that section, did not make application. In my opinion, it is one of the harshest sections in the Act, but, of course, we cannot advocate amending legislation on this Estimate. The Minister is proposing to amend the Act, and I am very glad of that, because it requires amendment. The Minister shakes his head to indicate that he is not proposing to do that. I was hoping that he would. I think he will have gone sufficiently far already to realise that the Act requires very drastic amendment. These are the few points which I want to raise, and I hope the Minister will be able to deal with them, particularly as regards the assessment of means and the question of the birth or baptismal certificate.

Mr. McMenamin

I should like to ask a few questions and to refer to the one raised by Deputy Dillon about the £2 bonus given to Gaeltacht children. I understand that a circular has been sent to school teachers in the Gaeltacht districts asking for the names of widows whose children have been getting the £2 bonus. Perhaps it is forestalling the thing to suggest that this has been done for the purposes of this Act in order to count that bonus as means. I suggest to the Minister that that should be dropped. That £2 bonus has been given for a number of years and the question of the means of the parents was not taken into consideration. It has been given as an inducement to promote the use of the Irish language. I appeal to the Minister not to cut across that in this case, and I think the House will agree that he should not do it. I am not suggesting that this inquiry has been addressed to the teachers for this purpose, but that is the suspicion in the country.

The Minister referred to the question of the filling of the forms. I spent the holidays in Donegal and I filled a great many of these forms. I agree with Deputy Morrissey that it is remarkable that a great many more were not wrongly filled. The form is like an income-tax form owing to the number of queries and the way they are put. The Minister should not be too harsh on the people who have delayed in putting them in. A lot of women, after filling them up, took them to somebody else to see if they were right, and were told they were wrong. They then tore them up and had to apply for another form. That has been the cause of some of this delay. I think the Minister will agree that the questionnaire was a very complicated one. It was very far-fetched and demanded a great lot of information.

The next thing to which I want to refer is in regard to the investigation officers. Who are the investigation officers? Is the local pension officer who has been the investigation officer for pensions the investigation officer? Last night, when I went home from this House, there was awaiting me a letter enclosing an award of 1/- to a woman who had four children, one under 14 years of age and three over 14 years of age. The one under 14 years of age is at school. I did not get an opportunity of reading through all the details of this form sent round but the nett result of it is that this woman and one child have been awarded a pension of 1/- a week. That strikes me as applying the screw very tightly. I think the Act is being made just ridiculous when a woman and child like that is given 1/- a week. I know this woman and she and her four children were left very helpless after the youngest child was born. She put up a good struggle and she has made reasonably good. I was rather amazed to read the award that had been made to her. I would appeal to the Minister not to apply in the working of the Act the screw that has been applied in the cases of young men who are applying for unemployment assistance. We are dealing with people who have been left wrecks on the roadside and the Minister should not apply the screw too hard. These are very different from the cases of young men who, though technically unemployed, have housing and coal, clothes and food. It seems ridiculous throwing 1/- or 6d. to such an applicant. It is treating them in a contemptuous way. This widow made a great struggle to keep her home together and it is nothing short of a farce to give to her and her child this contemptuous pension of 1/-.

Mr. Anthony

Another and perhaps a better opportunity will present itself in the near future when we can go into fuller details in relation to widows' and orphans' pensions, the National Insurance Act, and the activities of both these measures. I feel, Sir, having followed the statement by the Minister very closely, that the administration of this measure will be a very grave disappointment indeed to many widows in this country. It will be a disappointment to many thousands of applicants, all of whom believed that because of the fact that they were widows they were entitled to a pension. A very grave disappointment will be felt by these people and their friends. When this measure was introduced with a very great flourish of trumpets, out of which the present Government made a good deal of political propaganda, much was expected from it. Now I make the Government a present of all that kind of propaganda. It does not matter to me what propaganda the Government get out of a Bill provided they are discharging useful social services. I am aware that the Minister for Local Government and Public Health is actuated by the best, highest and most humane principles. He deserves an acknowledgment of that from all parts of the House. But I feel disappointed, in common with thousands of others in the country who know the circumstances of those widows who have been refused pensions. Indeed the efforts made by the Minister in connection with this Bill reminds me of the old story of the mountain in labour producing a mouse. The figures which the Minister read out have been disappointing.

Let us look at the case made here this evening by Deputies Morrissey and McMenamin. These cases can be multiplied a thousand-fold. In my constituency, Cork City, I have had a very large number of complaints from widows who filled in these application forms and answered the questionnaire. In many cases I warned those women that because of certain provisions of the Act they would not be entitled to pensions. But against my advice they went relatively to a considerable amount of expense in securing birth certificates, baptismal certificates, marriage certificates and death certificates of the deceased husbands and so on. Those people incurred what was to them a considerable amount of expense and they have been much disappointed at their claims being turned down. Many of those people expected that the legislation in connection with widows and orphans would be on the lines of the British Act. In this House of course we knew that that was not so.

I was disappointed to hear from the Minister to-day that he did not propose to introduce amending legislation to cover cases such as those mentioned by Deputy Morrissey and Deputy McMenamin. When that measure was introduced here, all of us who supported it believed that it would relieve very considerably the charges in the case of orphans in industrial schools and such institutions. Analysing the figures, we find that most of those widows having children in orphanages and industrial schools will not be able to avail of the benefits of the Act because these widows are under 60 years of age. That is a situation of which the Minister should take particular note. It was felt on the introduction of that measure here that it would very considerably reduce the charges in the case of industrial schools and orphanages.

The Minister's statement which we have just heard discloses the fact that a large number of widows were debarred because they were under 60 years of age and had no dependents under the age of 16. In some cases children over 14 years and under 16 years of age, if they are not going to school, will not count in the claim for pensions. I suggest to the Minister that the plea which has been made to him for amending legislation in order to enable some of those widows to come within the provisions of the Act, ought to have his sympathetic consideration. Under the Act 7/6 is the maximum amount that can be awarded and that is very small indeed. The amount allowed for dependent children is also very small. I anticipated that the lowest amount to be granted to a widow would be 10/-. However, I know that I am now suggesting something that might possibly be out of order, but I am putting it, in the best way I can, to the Minister to consider the question of doing something to relieve the kind of cases mentioned here this evening.

There is another class of case which I want to bring to the notice of the Minister and, in doing so, I want to say that I do not think it is fair to him to put up a case here and ask him to reply right away. But the fact is I have had letters from across the Channel. I will mention one case to indicate the class of claim that is arising. It is that of the widow of an ex-National Army soldier. Before his enlistment he had been a contributor to National Health Insurance. His widow had to seek employment outside this country because what the home assistance allowed her, 8/- a week, was not sufficient to maintain herself and her two children. She wrote to me because I happened to be one of the representatives of Cork City, and she asked me would she be entitled to a pension. In reply I told her that I did not think she would as she was too long out of the country. I think I interpreted the section of the Act fairly well when I told her that I did not think she did not come within the Act. I dare say these cases will crop up from time to time and come under the Minister's notice. I hope when we come to discuss the Estimates proper the Minister will be responsive to the suggestions or appeals made to him in connection with the operation of the Act. I have sufficient confidence in the Minister, knowing him as I do, that he will respond when a good case is put up.

I would like to mention a further case, the case of a widow under 60 years with two or three dependents. Because she has not yet reached the age of 60 years she is debarred. I can see that the Act rules her out. But the huge sum of money demanded by the Minister—£250,000—and the relative proportion that bears to the amount it would take to administer the Act, seems to me to be out of all proportion. It would appear to me that the Supplementary Estimate really asks for still further officials to disfranchise a larger number of widows. That is the impression I got from the operation of this Act so far—that you are simply going to establish a number of extra officials and, upon my word, we have quite enough civil servants already in the country. You are going to establish extra officials in order to prevent a number of widows getting the pension. It would be far better if the Minister made a statement here indicating that the intention of most of those officials would be to keep widows from getting their pensions. That would be more in keeping with the position.

I am sure the Minister feels there are already enough civil servants in the country without establishing another battalion. This country cannot afford to carry any greater number of civil servants. When the Minister was in opposition he, and those associated with him, used to talk at the crossroads about the horders of officials. I regard the civil servant as a very worthy citizen and I always feel he earns his money, but I do not believe in multiplying them out of all proportion to the capacity of the country to pay. There are already enough civil servants in the Minister's Department and, if he thinks there are not enough there, there are sufficient elsewhere in the Administration who should be able to administer this rather simple Act. The very fact that so many are debarred out of the many thousands who have applied for pensions, the very fact that only a few paltry hundreds are getting pensions, should really make it a matter of rule of thumb, and a few office boys should be able to do all the work required. I must enter an emphatic protest against any further additions to the civil service.

Mr. Norton

Deputy Anthony seems to be concerned that the number of civil servants are multiplying at a rate that makes it impossible for the community to bear the burden of sustaining them. It might be of interest to the Deputy to know that while there are a few thousand more civil servants to-day than in 1928, the cost of them is less than in that year. Instead of employing adult civil servants to administer this Act the Deputy thinks it would be as useful to employ a few office boys.

Mr. Anthony

And pay them better.

Mr. Norton

The Deputy apparently does not want to see adults employed in the Civil Service. According to his way of thinking, if the Government employed office boys everything in the garden would be lovely.

General MacEoin

They might do the work much better.

Mr. Norton

The Minister's speech makes very clear the impression which many people had when the Widows' and Orphans Pensions Bill was being considered. I mentioned on the Second Reading and the Committee Stage that the manner in which the non-contributory section of the Bill was drawn was designed not to give pensions to widows and orphans, but to prevent an overwhelming majority of widows and orphans receiving the pensions which they expected they would get. The Minister's figures have proved conclusively that the fears I then expressed have been completely justified. The Minister says that up to 6th December there were 19,591 claims received and by the time the provisions of the Act were used against these claimants we find that 1,569 were awarded pensions. Through various causes a very substantial number of other claims fell. The position now is that out of 19,591 claims, 1,569 persons have got pensions and there are 11,075 claims outstanding. Even in those cases the Minister only went so far as to say that these people appeared to have a prima facie case for a pension. By the time the provisions of the Act are applied to these 11,075 people, I venture to say there will not be 3,000 of them, and that is a generous allowance, likely to get pensions. Out of the 19,591 claims for pensions, I venture to say when the Minister analyses the return showing how these claims have been disposed of, he will find not more than 4,000 of them will get pensions. The remaining 15,000 persons will have withered away.

Those people who have applied for pensions fondly cherished the illusion when the Bill was going through that their claims would be recognised. The Minister has disclosed a completely different state of affairs and he has succeeded in cruelly shattering their illusions. It has been made clear that, so far as this Act is concerned, the majority of widows in this country will not get pensions. If the administration of the Act continues in the same fashion, we may be perfectly satisfied that even the Minister's estimate of the number likely to get pensions will not be realised.

I was rather bewildered by the figures the Minister gave to-day. Replying to a question on the 4th December, the Minister for Agriculture, who was replying for the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, said that the number of widows whose applications for pensions had been sanctioned for payment up to and including the 2nd December was 318; the number of orphans whose applications had been sanctioned was nil, and the number of applications for pensions which had been rejected was, in the case of widows, 4,627, and in the case of orphans, 42. On the 2nd of December, therefore, 318 widows' pensions had been sanctioned and there were no orphans' pensions. I would like to know how, four days after that, the figure of 318 jumped up to 1,569. That seems remarkably speedy work, and I would like an explanation from the Minister in that connection. Will he explain how, in four days, a large number of additional pensions was provided, whereas for the preceding three months there were only 318 sanctioned?

It may be that somebody remembered that an Estimate was to be introduced into the Dáil—I am not saying that that is so. But the fact remains that the Minister must realise that the notion that the Widows and Orphans Act is providing pensions for needy women and children is becoming a fallacy. I do not say that the Minister is responsible. With Deputy Anthony I give the Minister credit for possessing a very fine outlook on social legislation. I am sure this Act would be much better if the Minister had been allowed to draw it, and finance it also, but the fact remains that many people believed that what was intended was that widows and orphans should receive pensions. I hope that it is quite clear now that, as far as widows and orphans are concerned, only a very small proportion of them are likely to get pensions out of the Act as it stands. We are voting large sums of money to continue the administration of the Act. I think we ought to say to the Minister that the administration of the Act, while it may be in clear conformity with the law, is very unfair to the widows and the orphans.

Deputy Morrissey referred to the means test, and to the unfair inquisition that is being carried on, and which is simply getting worse every day, in the case of widows and orphans claiming pensions. I suggest to the Minister that, so far as he can promise and secure it, in case of doubt every possible benefit ought to be given to the claimant. Even if the benefit of all possible doubts was given to the claimants, I am afraid that because of the way the Act is drawn widows are likely to be denied the pensions they were promised.

This is an Estimate for another £250,000. I think it is pertinent, when dealing with the administration of this Act, to ask the Minister, having regard to the small number of pensions already awarded, and having regard to the working of the Act, how long will it be before the 11,000 claims are disposed of, and whether it is not merely fooling people into the belief that this is necessary, having regard to the manner in which the Act is administered and the way applicants are dealt with. Does all this not show clearly that it is going to take a long time before the State contribution will be utilised, having regard to the way in which the Act is drawn?

It is not in order, on an occasion like this, to suggest amending legislation. If it was there would be a great many pleas from all parts of the House for amending legislation, because the cases we have seen decided show the application of the means test at its worst, show a cruel inquisition into the means at the disposal of families, and show that fallacious valuations are put upon the merest sources of income. The fact is, as the Minister's figures intimate, that all these methods of inquisition have reduced the claimants from 19,000 to 11,000, and that out of nearly 8,500 claimants dealt with only 1,500 have got pensions. In one way or another 7,000 out of 19,000 claimants have fallen. When the test is continued in regard to the 11,000, the overwhelming number of them will fall. If ever there was a case for amending legislation this is such a case. I do not want to advocate it upon this Estimate, but I hope that when the Minister sees the effects of his own figures he will come to the conclusion that he ought not to postpone for one day the introduction of legislation, in order that he may be able to present at some future time, after amending legislation has been carried, a better picture in connection with widows' and orphans' pensions than he has presented to-day.

Minister for Local Government and Public Health (Mr. O Ceallaigh)

I think some Deputies have forgotten, or some seem to have forgotten, that the main purpose for which the Widows and Orphans Act was passed this year was to have a widows' and orphans' pension scheme on a contributory basis installed in legislation, and operative in this country. It was thought generally in the House, and it was thought by me, and the Executive Council, that we should go as far as possible, while introducing that contributory scheme for widows' and orphans' pensions, to meet the case of widows who would not come in under that scheme, and to deal as generously as State finances would allow with those who have been recently or remotely widowed.

The main basis of the scheme is a contributory one, and that does not come into operation until next month, so that every widow who comes in under the Act on a contributory scheme has a right to get her pension. There are hardships under this Act. There are hard cases of people who, perhaps, are not entitled to come under the Act as drawn, and who see other widows, for one reason or another, coming in and drawing their pensions, and wonder why they are not free to draw pensions in the same way. No matter what Act you pass, whatever test you apply in regard to social legislation, you will have hard cases. Cases mentioned to-day by Deputies McMenamin and Anthony are illustrations of this. I am not surprised such cases are mentioned. I do not say that any legislation we get here will be so drawn as to exclude every case of hardship that will arise in the country in matters of this kind. I must say I have been surprised by the number of applications that have come in. I thought they would have been greater. I am not yet satisfied that the figures, after final analysis, will be anything like those given by Deputy Norton. The Act has not been long in operation. It has been a great rush to get it through, and to get the necessary arrangements made, so as to put it into operation next month. Every member of the staff has been working overtime in order to see that not a day will be lost, and to see that claimants who are entitled will be sure to get their money when the Act comes into operation in January next.

A question was asked by Deputy Norton as to discrepancies in the first few days of December, and the numbers of them is easily explained. As I say, the Act is not long in operation, and it took some time to get the machinery going. We had to get the investigation officers instructed, and then sent out on the road, and in the beginning the returns came in very slowly. Every day the rate of return has been increasing, and now we are getting them in at the rate of between 300 and 400 a day. I expect that, before the Act comes into operation, we will have got through the vast majority of the claims still undecided.

Deputy Dillon asked about one particular case of a person who was at one time, I think he said, a contributor, to National Health Insurance, but who, for some reason or other, had left insurance and was not insured at the time of death. The Act lays down that, in order that the widow be entitled to receive a pension, her husband must have been in National Health Insurance at the time of death. There has been quite a number—I cannot give the exact figure —of claims ruled out on that ground. I know it is a hardship; I know that there are many deserving cases among those people; but that is the law as it was drawn. It is not the civil servants' fault; it is the fault of the Act—our own fault, because we are the authors of the measure.

I think the statement made by Deputy Norton, that this Act is a cruel illusion, is a gross exaggeration. I say that the contributory scheme is the real basis of the measure, and as such there will be no illusion for anybody. When the Act comes into operation every person who is a contributor under the scheme will be entitled as of right to get a pension, and there will be no illusion about that. The £250,000 which Deputy Norton asked a question about is the sum that the actuaries decided is necessary, and will be necessary, on our present actuarial figures at any rate, to keep the scheme financially sound. However, that will come later. The investigators who are examining those claims are not appointed by the Department of Local Government. They are appointed by the Revenue Department, and they act under that Department. So far as I am aware, they do take all local circumstances into account in measuring a person's means. The means test, of course, is always a subject of discussion where moneys of this kind are concerned, and there always will be different points of view as to the valuation of a person's means. There are certain incomes which are definite, while the amount of others is a matter of opinion, and I do not suppose you will ever get unanimity between applicant and investigator as to what may be the value of those matters which are in dispute. You will never get anything like agreement; as long as there is a means test there will be disagreement.

Somebody asked a question about the number of widows under 60. I am not quite certain which Deputy asked it. Our figures show that there are 2,567 widows under 60, that is without dependents, out of 4,803 rejections. The forms of application may appear to some to be rather complicated, but I do not think we can simplify them any further. We went over them very carefully and eliminated anything that we thought was unnecessary, but it is essential to get as much information as possible on those forms. It is possible that widows here and there found it difficult to fill up those forms, but there is none of them who would not succeed in getting a friend who is familiar with such matters to fill up the form for them. I know that that has been done universally. With regard to the certificates, where there is difficulty in getting birth, death, or marriage certificates, a search is made in the Registrar General's Office, and, as in the case of Old Age Pensions, where no evidence of that kind is available, other evidence is usually taken. Alternative evidence is accepted by the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions investigators, as well as in the case of Old Age Pensions.

Deputy Anthony spoke about the horde of officials. It is a fact that there has been an increase in the number of officials in the Department of Local Government. There has been an increase of 104 or 105 as a result of this legislation. Of course, every piece of legislation of this kind does necessarily mean an increase of staff. There is not a day on which we meet here that from some part of the House claims are not made for further legislation of this kind—improvement in the present legislation and further social and other legislation. Everywhere, inside and outside the House, demands are being made that the State should take over this and the State should take over that. I am speaking now without reference to Party; I think it is as common in one Party as another; the general tendency seems to be to encourage the State to enter into every avenue of life; to control direct, organise and run not alone the machine of State but the public and private lives of all citizens of the State. I do not agree with that. I should like to leave as much liberty as possible to the citizen. But where the State is entering into and controlling and directing so much of the citizens' lives it is natural that the staffs must be increased at headquarters and throughout the country. The case of the widows' and orphans' pensions is just a case in point. There were one or two other smaller points made by Deputies which I think I need not go into now. One or two questions were raised by Deputy Dillon and Deputy Morrissey, and all I can say to them is that I will have the cases which they raised examined later.

Mr. McMenamin

Would the Minister say anything about the £2 bonus to the Gaeltacht children?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I know nothing about it. I will have the matter looked into.

Question put and agreed to.

Estimate reported.