Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 13 Feb 1936

Vol. 60 No. 5

Spanish Trade Agreement Bill, 1936—Second Stage.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Lemass)

I move that the Bill be read a Second Time. A commercial agreement, operative for one year, was concluded on the 1st April, 1935, between the Government of the Saorstát and the Spanish Government, and was presented to both Houses of the Oireachtas by the Minister for External affairs. Under clause 7 of that agreement, the Government of Saorstát Eireann undertook to take all the measures necessary for the purpose of preventing in its territory, during the duration of the agreement, the wrong ful use of the geographical appellations of origin of wines produced in and exported from Spain, the names of which appear in the annex to the treaty of agreement, and the importation of which should be subject to the production of certificates of origin delivered by the competent Spanish authorities.

The classes of wines covered by that paragraph of the agreement are those set out in the Schedule to this Bill. The purpose of the Bill is to enable us to give effect to that part of the agreement. This is done by giving the Minister for Industry and Commerce power, under Section 2 of the Bill, to afford the necessary protection of the particular name, and also to require that the particular wine, when imported, will be covered by a certificate of origin. A somewhat similar measure was passed in 1930 in connection with the trade agreement made with Portugal, with this difference that the legislation introduced in that year in regard to Portugal itself applied the protection and imposed the requirement in respect of the certificate of origin. Under this Bill that will be done by Order, and the reason for the difference is that the agreement with Spain is for a period of one year. If it is continued beyond that period, then Orders can be made extending the provisions of this Bill accordingly.

Provision is made under Section 5 of the Bill that an Order made under it will not apply within one year from the date of the passing of the Bill to any wine or other liquor imported into the Saorstát before that date. That provision is made so as to ensure that there will be ample time for the disposal of stocks of wines which were imported without the certificate of origin but which will become necessary for importation as soon as Orders are made under this Bill.

General Mulcahy

I think the introduction of this Bill is just throwing dust in the eyes of the farmers. This Bill is introduced to implement, to some extent, an agreement that was made with Spain on the grounds that Spain was going to help to take some of the surplus agricultural produce that was left here in this country because the British market was cut off by Government policy. In return for safeguarding Spanish exports in certain classes of fruits, vegetables and wines, Spain undertook to take a certain number of eggs from this country. The agreement is put over by the Government as a kind of bluff policy, that it is establishing alternative markets for the farmers of this country. We have heard complaints here that the eggs exported from this country to Spain are not being paid for. I do not want to go into that question, but I do want to go into the question that it is simply nonsense and fooling the people of this country to go on making these agreements on the pretence that agreements of this particular kind are establishing alternative markets and are going to improve the agricultural situation here.

The Minister did not tell us what has happened as a result of this agreement. For that information we have to turn to the trade statistics published the other day for the nine months ended December last. When we do that, we find that this is another of the three to one agreements by which we send £3 to Spain and we take our chance of getting £1 back, with some delay. I would like to hear from the Minister for Industry and Commerce what exactly Spain has taken from us under this agreement. In the meantime, I think the House should realise what is happening to eggs, because this agreement is made entirely on the basis that we are going to get rid of eggs out of this country, and that, therefore, we are going to help the farmers. It would be much better if we scrapped all these agreements and adopted some other policy. This is the position with regard to eggs. All we know is that during the last 12 months the exports from this country to Spain were value for £70,836. The direct exports to Spain, therefore, for the last nine months were value for approximately £53,127, as against imports received from Spain amounting to £171,000 during the same period. The agreement is slightly less valuable in the matter of ratio than the German three to one agreement.

Mr. Lemass

Will the Deputy give the figures for last year?

General Mulcahy

I could give the Minister the figures for last year, the year before and the year before that, and the farther the Minister went back the better he would find the ratio was of our relationship with trade with Spain. However, I do not want to confuse the Minister with a large number of figures. I want to deal with eggs. We were able to get rid of eggs to the value of £2,269,000 in 1931. Last year we only got rid of eggs to the value of £711,000. Therefore, as regards the export of eggs, we dropped more than £1,500,000. When we were exporting eggs to the value of £2,269,000 almost all of them were going to the British market and that at a time when Australia was only able to export eggs to the value of £582,000 to that market. In the meantime Australia has doubled her export in eggs to the British market, the figure for 1935 being £1,092,000, while our exports to the British market in the same period have fallen from £2,270,000 to over £700,000.

Mr. Lemass

Does the Deputy know why?

General Mulcahy

Because the Minister was not given a free hand in Ottawa perhaps.

Mr. Lemass

What is preventing us sending eggs to Great Britain now?

General Mulcahy

I would like to hear the Minister explain why we have dropped £1,500,000 in this particular way and, in particular, will he explain why in view of the fact that Britain imported £700,000 worth of eggs more last year than she did the year before we have dropped an additional £180,000 in our exports to Great Britain since last year. While we are blinding the farmers with some of the sawdust that comes out of the cases from Spain we are in this position, that the whole of our poultry industry is being impoverished. There is not a single class of poultry laying eggs whose numbers have not been reduced since 1931. Ducks have fallen by 30 per cent.——

An Ceann Comhairle

This Bill deals with one aspect of the trade agreement with Spain. Possibly it is relevant to refer to eggs. I have not prevented the Deputy from quoting the figures relating to export of eggs. The whole poultry trade and the question of exports to Great Britain, comparing one year with another, is scarcely relevant on this minor measure which implements only certain aspects of a trade agreement approved of by both Houses of the Oireachtas.

Mr. Lemass

I submit that the decline in the number of geese in the country is not relevant either.

General Mulcahy

What I submit is that we agreed to a trade agreement with Spain before we got a chance of seeing how it worked out, We now have a small experience of it and it is not overburdening the debate to draw attention to the fact that, compared with what we are losing in other lines, this agreement is nothing but an attempt to throw sawdust in the eyes of the farmers. It is not worth the Minister's while and it is not worth paying a Minister in Spain if they are not able to achieve more than is contained in this agreement.

The Minister might have seen fit, in introducing this proposal to implement an agreement, to say something which would enlighten the people as to what is happening with regard to the import of oranges. Take one net point. A case of Jaffa oranges can be bought in Liverpool for 9/6. It would cost 1/- to bring them over here. If any ordinary person goes out to buy a case of Jaffa oranges here, he will be asked to pay 25/-.

Mr. Lemass

I am surprised that he is able to get them at all.

General Mulcahy

He will pay 25/- if he is able to get them at all. He may not be able to get them. He may look merely for oranges and we find an operation proceeding by which apparently, people are being taught to appreciate small oranges and bad oranges, at a very much higher price than these oranges can be obtained in Great Britain. A letter was published on 7th December last from the Fruit Exchange, Halston Street, conducted by Messrs. Morgan & Co., in which they gave the comparative prices of oranges in the City of Dublin and in Liverpool.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy is vouching for the accuracy of the figures?

General Mulcahy

The Minister has these figures before him. I am vouching for the accuracy of the statement that Jaffa oranges, quoted at 9/6 in Liverpool, and which would cost an extra shilling for removal here, are costing 25/- here.

Mr. Dillon

And more.

Mr. Lemass

I am surprised that there are any available at all.

General Mulcahy

Perhaps I should quote the figures in this letter, so that the Minister can examine them at his leisure. The letter is addressed to the Editor of the Irish Times and is as follows:—

"A Press item of the 4th inst. stated: `The prices (of oranges) were approximately the same as those prevailing in the Liverpool market and, on balance, represented the world price of the fruit.... The establishment of the fruit exchange here will safeguard Irish traders from the fluctuations of the English market.' In the interests of truth in the news, perhaps you will allow space to the following comparison of prices made at the sales in Dublin on Tuesday last and in Liverpool the following day (Wednesday)."

The letter proceeds to give details of prices in connection with Navels (Californian-style packing). The prices at Dublin and Liverpool are quoted as follows:—

Dublin.	Liverpool
19/6, 20/-	12/6, 13/9	(1/3, 1/4½)
19/-, 20/6	12/6	(1/3)
14/-, 15/6	12/-	(1/3)
16/-, 17/9	13/-	(1/3)
14/6, 15/-	13/-	(1/3)
13/-, 15/-	11/3	(1/1½)

Prices are next quoted for "Not Navels" (usual Spanish packing). These prices are as follows:—

Dublin (best brands)	Liverpool (best brands)
17/-, 17/6 (bulk)	14/9, 15/- (1/6) (bulk)
14/-, 15/6	13/6, 14/- (1/4½)
12/6, 13/-	10/9, 11/6 (1/1)
12/6, 13/-	10/3, 11/3 (1/1)
15/-, 17/-	13/3, 14/9 (1/4½)

The letter proceeds:

"The figures in brackets beside the Liverpool prices represent the approximate amount per package paid in ad valorem duty to the English Government, which is included in the Liverpool quotations. There is no duty on oranges here. While the public may conclude from the above that Irish orange traders certainly need safeguarding, it will surely see that English market fluctuations are not a source of danger and it may properly ask: `What about us?' especially as the existing monopoly was virtually State-conceded. Indisputably, an increased burden has been needlessly put on Irish Free State consumers. If compensation in the form of similarly high prices from Spain for eggs and other exports could be pointed to, consumers might be consoled, but we have not heard of the Spanish market sending up the price of Irish eggs.”

That letter is signed by Mr. G. Morgan, director of A. Morgan and Son, Ltd.

The Minister has, from time to time, heard complaints from Cork Deputies as to the position to which the fruit trade has been reduced in respect of oranges and the position in which orange consumers have been placed. Cork people may be a bit pernickety but, if they make a complaint on this subject, it is worth airing. We have got a Minister in Spain and that Minister is, I take it, responsible not alone for looking after our trade position there but for interesting himself in the constitutional position. Treaties with Spain should be in accord with the constitutional position. On the wrappers in which some of these oranges from Spain came in were printed the words: "To the honour of the English Sovereign." If we have a Minister in Spain, the Spanish people ought to be informed as to what the constitutional position here is.

Mr. Lemass

There was nothing about that in the agreement.

General Mulcahy

I presume we make agreements with Spain so that there may be good economic relations between the countries, and I suggest that there should be a thorough understanding of our mutual constitutional positions so that our relations may be harmonious. It may be that these wrappers raise the question as to whether these oranges came from Spain or from some place we do not know of in the backwoods. On the wrappers are the words "Our Sovereign" and a representation of the head of Queen Victoria, with the date 1928. Apparently, they have not yet heard that it should be "the late Queen Victoria." The Minister in finicking with trade agreements could have taken measures to safeguard Irish farmers who drink Spanish wine so that they would not have to drink any substitute. This is simply bluff, bluster and pretence. I would like the Minister to deal with the Spanish agreement——

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy has been doing that very noticeably.

General Mulcahy

——and to show how long we are to continue this three to one ratio in our trade with Spain. Is that ratio to continue generally? It is a much better ratio I admit than is the case with most other countries we have dealings with, outside Great Britain. In the German agreement, we find, beside the three to one basis of the Spanish agreement about which nothing at all was said, it works out at something less than three to one. The Minister should take the opportunity on this Bill to discuss the ratio, as it were, that he hopes to reach in an agreement for trade with Spain. The sooner we know something about it the better. If we knew the Minister's own mind on the subject, then we might be able to get back to the position of getting rid of our eggs in a better market.

Mr. Dillon

This Bill implements a Bill for a trade agreement which formed part of a series of trade agreements, and it is interesting to recall the genesis of this agreement with the Treaty and the Bill before us now. Deputies on the back benches of Fianna Fáil will remember that they were sent out to sound a Greek chorus around President de Valera when he proclaimed that he thanked God the British market was gone.

Mr. Lemass

On a point of order, I think it is desirable that you, Sir, should indicate the limits of debate on this Bill.

Mr. Dillon

One of them said he was gratified to think that he could destroy in 100 days what had been a profitable trade practice that it had taken 100 years to build up. Why? Because they had got a Spanish trade agreement; they had got a German trade agreement, and they had got the alternative markets that Ireland had been yearning for for 700 years. The alternative markets when weighed up consisted in our purchasing £12,735,955 worth of merchandise from countries other than the United Kingdom, and these countries, of which Spain is one, purchased goods worth £623,530 from us. Deputy Mulcahy referred to the three to one ratio. In fact, it would be true to describe the alternative markets, which the zeal, foresight and the brilliance of the Fianna Fáil Party have won for us, not as a three to one but a seven to one ratio. That is all so far as the deals that have taken place go, and we may hope that an improvement will advance with the same rapidity that the Republic advances for this liberty-loving, economic country. In the Spanish trade agreement there were several considerations. We were to give Spain every consideration that they were to give us. One consideration we were to give Spain is being implemented by this Bill. That was that we would restrict the titles under which wines could be sold in this country and that in exchange they were to take eggs from us. What has actually happened? As Deputies who are familiar with our agricultural produce know, eggs are graded into extra selected, selected, medium pullets' eggs, trade eggs and duck eggs. Great Britain has consistently taken from this country all grades of eggs at appropriate prices. Will the gallant Spaniard take them? Not on your life. Will the generous German take them? Not in a month of Sundays. They lay down that they will take only extra selected, and that we can do what we like with the medium trade—dump them on innocent John Bull. John Bull is long-suffering and by many is regarded as a stupid nation. But there are limits to what he will stand for, and if the Fianna Fáil Government think that we can send all the extra selected to the Continent and hope to dump the refuse on Great Britain, they never made a greater mistake in their lives. Of course, when they discover that, the policy will be changed, and we will have to fight our way back into the British egg market with our hats in our hands, craving readmission to a valuable market out of which we voluntarily walked in order to provide the cream of our trade and production for Spain and Germany, two countries that will not take the lower grade eggs because they cannot use them. That would be bad enough. But anyone who has been dealing with Great Britain knows that where you send goods to a reputable British firm they pay for them. There were no bones about that on the part of the British Government. You get your money, lodge it in the bank and there was an end to the transaction. Will Spain do that? Not at all. If you send eggs to Madrid the merchant there expresses his readiness to pay but the Government says, "No, you will not. We will not release currency for you to pay that debt." There have been delays of three months, and up to five months, in getting money out of Spain to pay for consignments of eggs delivered there. These eggs were delivered to solvent merchants who were prepared to pay if their own Government would let them.

I suggest when that situation develops we ought to set up in this country a clearing house arrangement so that any moneys that fall due here in respect of Spanish exports to Saorstát Eireann could be ear-marked to liquidate moneys due for products sent from here to Spain. Nothing has been done along these lines as yet. Even if that is done, we have to consider whether we are in fact getting value for the money we spent. Whether we are or not, no time should be lost, if the Spanish Government continues to take up the position that they will not admit of free currency export to pay for Irish goods, in establishing a clearing house arrangement. It is true that we will not have a sufficient fund here to liquidate all claims against us, because we are buying more from Spain than Spain is buying from us.

Mr. Lemass

Then we will have three times as much. The Deputy's logic is wrong too. Obviously, we will have three times more than they will have.

Mr. Dillon

Upon my word, I think the Minister is right. Is it possible with that information that he might set up a clearing house? The Minister is perfectly right. I was deluded.

Mr. Lemass

Just say that you were deluded.

Mr. Dillon

It is true that we have a large surplus of money going from Saorstát Eireann to Spain, as we are actually sending to the Spaniards one-third more than the sum in which we are liable to them. The Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Minister for Agriculture should take steps to see if that receives consideration. We find that these foreign markets take the cream of our produce. Now we come to the last aspect. Is what they are sending to us of as good quality as we can get in the markets of the world and as cheap? At least we are entitled to expect, when we enter into a trade agreement, that we will get fair value for our money. Are we getting it? I do not know how many Deputies share my liking for oranges, and I do not know how many Deputies may have business dealings in oranges. If they have dealings they will know that we are getting the scourings of the Spanish-Valencia trade. There is rubbish being shipped to this country which should bring a blush of shame to the Spanish Exporters' Association, and we are being denied access to abundant supplies of excellent Jaffa oranges from Palestine except in so far as the quota which the Minister allots to importers will go.

What has been the effect of the quota? The effect of the quota which he has placed on Jaffa oranges has been to admit a certain amount of them, but it has also created an artificial scarcity of them, with the result that Jaffa oranges have been sold in this country not only at 25/- a case, but I have bought them at 32/- a case, and I have seen them offered, but did not buy them, at 36/- a case. I may add that I immediately communicated with the Prices Controller asking him to investigate the matter, and he replied that he had no power unless I made a specific claim, backed by an invoice, showing that I paid the price that had been demanded of me, naming the person who had offered me the goods and a variety of other details which I did not get and could not get, so nothing came of it. I was not going to pay an exorbitant price for oranges in order to grease the wheels of the Prices Controller's machinery, and I could not get information of a written character from a man who had given me the quotation days before, more particularly if he knew I intended to give the information to the Prices Controller. Thirdly, I was extremely reluctant to be the agent of setting the Prices Controller in motion in respect of an old friend in commerce with whom I had been dealing for years and who simply paid the ruling price for these oranges on the Irish market. I do not wish to go further into that matter now, for I might stray outside the strict relevance of the matter we have under consideration.

Mr. Lemass

Which you would never think of doing.

Mr. Dillon

Certainly not intentionally. I think this Bill is totally analogous to legislation which had its origin in an old Anglo-Portuguese treaty. I suggest it is not sufficient to introduce legislation of this kind on the occasion of trade agreements of this character. It would be a much more sensible thing if the Minister would ask his responsible colleague to introduce legislation for the protection of the citizens of this country rather than for external powers who are sending exports here. It does not seem reasonable that there should be any uneasiness about compelling people to describe wine correctly. I suggest the Minister should look into the whole question of the trade description of wines coming from Spain and Portugal and such other countries as are sending wine here and then propose legislation compelling all wines to be properly described and such wines as had not got a proper description with them should bear upon the bottle a clear description of how the wine has been manufactured.

There is stuff being sold in this country since the Irish-Portuguese treaty which cannot be called port but which is being sold as good red wine and which is, in fact, a loathsome, synthetic product which I believe, under certain conditions, can be highly poisonous. I make three suggestions to the Minister: First of all, that he should insist on the Spanish Government raising the standard of oranges sent here under the trade agreement; that he should, if possible, allow in a larger quota of Jaffa oranges and let in the Valencia oranges after the Jaffa orange season has closed. Secondly, that he should set up a clearing-house system in order to secure prompt payment for any agricultural exports that we send to Spain. Thirdly, that he should widen the scope of this wine legislation and extend it to all wines offered for sale by licensed grocers and publicans in order that the Irish public may get the benefit of the correct naming of anything offered as wine in a bottle.

Mr. Lemass

Whenever any Government proposal is brought before the House. Deputy Mulcahy always demands some other policy. The monotonous repetition of that phrase by him day after day is indicative of the complete absence of policy in his own Party. If he thinks some other policy is possible and practicable and desirable, why not give the House the benefit of his views as to the nature of that policy? I do not think it is unreasonable that we should ask members of the Opposition, when they purport to criticise Government proposals and demand alternative proposals, that they should give us their own views as to what lines these alternative proposals should follow. It is indicative of the bankruptcy in policy of the Party opposite that they never attempt any constructive criticism of Government policy. In fact, even in their destructive criticism they are frequently self-contradictory and ineffective. They have been ineffective on this occasion.

Deputy Mulcahy juggled with figures, trying to convince himself he was proving something when, in fact, he was proving nothing. An agreement was made with Spain for a year under which we agreed to take a certain quantity of oranges and in return they undertook to take a corresponding quantity of eggs from us. That is not a 3 to 1 or 12 to 1 agreement. It is an agreement for the exchange of stated quantities of stated commodities. If Spain sold goods other than oranges she did so without any assistance from us. She was selling in a free market and our people purchased Spanish goods because they were cheaper or better or more convenient to purchase than similar goods from other countries. If we sold in Spain goods other than eggs, it was for the same reason. A very large part of the £12,000,000 worth of goods which we import from other countries is represented by goods that we cannot purchase anywhere else except in the countries from which we are getting them. Take petrol, tea, wheat and maize and what is left? Practically nothing. And yet Deputies endeavour to make a political point out of that. Such an attitude is completely futile and useless, because everybody knows the facts. Deputy Dillon's suggestion that we should buy oranges from Jerusalem instead of Spain represents the height of the political wisdom of Deputies opposite.

Mr. Dillon

They are the best oranges in the world.

Mr. Lemass

I am not disputing the quality of the oranges, but we have had no proposals from the Government of Jerusalem to purchase eggs or cattle or any agricultural produce from us.

Mr. Dillon

Does the Minister deny that he had a proposal from the Protectorate of Jerusalem to purchase cattle? If he does not know, he might ask his colleagues.

Mr. Lemass

The people there eat only the fore-quarters of a bullock.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister knows nothing about it. He knows as much about it as he does about Jerusalem.

Mr. Lemass

They will only take the fore-quarters there and if we could get someone else to take the hind-quarters it would simplify the matter. The fact that they have use only for the fore-quarters creates a difficulty. As I have said, we have had no constructive suggestion from the Party opposite.

Mr. Dillon

Rubbish.

Mr. Lemass

If there has been a decline in our export of eggs to Great Britain it has been due entirely to the fact that the British Government decided that British hens could lay as good eggs as the eggs exported from this country. That decline in our export had no relation whatever to the economic dispute between them and us, and was related solely to their own internal circumstances and the decision to protect the egg producers of Great Britain. This agreement with Spain opened up for the egg producers of this country a new and valuable market, a market which in the present circumstances is more valuable than the British market, a market that is likely to be permanent and offers considerable opportunities for expansion. It is the first agreement we have had with Spain. Deputy Mulcahy is complaining that our trade with Spain is favourable to Spain. This is now the first attempt to rectify that. The Government which preceded us had no interest in any market outside of Great Britain——

General Mulcahy

And yet our trade with Spain was much better in those years.

Mr. Lemass

It was not better. That is nonsense.

General Mulcahy

If the Minister thinks that to export more to Spain and to import less from Spain and the having of a less deficit or adverse balance is not better than exporting less and importing more, I do not know what he is talking about.

Mr. Lemass

That is not the point. The fact is that we have not imported a pound's worth more, but we have exported more. We merely changed the direction of our purchases. We purchase now from Spain what we were purchasing from other countries. That is an improvement to our trade, and is partly responsible for the reduction in the import balance of £4,000,000 last year.

General Mulcahy

Does the Minister tell us that there is a reduction of £4,000,000 in imports last year?

Mr. Lemass

No, there is a reduction in our adverse balance.

General Mulcahy

What was the value of our egg exports to Spain?

Mr. Lemass

Our egg exports to Spain were 22,000 metric quintals.

General Mulcahy

What is a quintible?

Mr. Lemass

I will work it out. The most remarkable fact about the orange trade with Spain is that during July, August and September, when there were no Spanish oranges imported and no oranges from Spain being sold here, we had debates in the Dáil and we had the columns of the newspapers filled up with letters from people, who knew nothing about the business, complaining about the quality of the oranges imported. That was happening at the one time in the year when no Spanish oranges were available and certainly none imported here. The oranges began to be imported here in the middle of last November, and I defy General Mulcahy to produce a single complaint in any newspaper since that date or a single reference in the Dáil debates to justify his contention that there are complaints now about Spanish oranges. There are complaints relating to the regulations my Department made, regulations that have nothing to do with this. Heretofore the position was that oranges that were intended for this country were imported into Great Britain and paid customs duty to the British Government. These oranges were handled by British merchants who reaped profits from them and shipped them to this country.

Mr. MacDermot

Is there a customs duty on oranges in England?

Mr. Lemass

No, but on crates. That was the position that we set out to rectify and we have rectified it. Oranges are shipped direct here and all the importers have accepted that position except one firm from which Deputy Mulcahy quoted, a firm that acted in a completely irresponsible way and stood out from the general association of the importers.

Mr. Dillon

From the ring.

Mr. Lemass

This firm undertook that completely unjustifiable campaign based on a complete misrepresentation of the facts and in the course of that campaign the letter was written that Deputy Mulcahy read here.

General Mulcahy

So that the Minister is engaged in the formation of a ring.

Mr. Lemass

No, in breaking down the wall that was erected around this country and in helping importers to establish direct relations. There are now direct steamship services between Irish ports and Spain. We have availed of the obvious possibilities in implementing that policy in the case of the oranges, using our powers under the Control of Imports Act, to impose certain obligations upon all importers and to give certain facilities to those who availed of the Irish shipping services established between this country and Spain in consequence of these relations. That is good national policy and leads to the fulfilment of what the Nationalists in this country for many generations desired to see operating in this country. I think that Deputy Mulcahy himself in his Nationalist past probably made speeches as to the desirability of having such an arrangement imposed.

General Mulcahy

It is a queer operation that reduces by millions the number of poultry in the country —this grand new scheme of opening up trade. Is not the number of poultry in the country reduced?

Mr. Lemass

Surely I will admit the number of geese in this country is reduced.

General Mulcahy

And the Minister knows that the number of hens is reduced by 2,500,000 since he came into office.

Mr. Lemass

Well, there has been no direct action on the part of the Government——

Mr. Dillon

May we hope for a Hen Slaughter Bill?

Mr. Lemass

It has been the concern of the Government to provide a trade wherever openings are possible for any industry in this country and we have been particularly successful in relation to the egg industry——

General Mulcahy

And that is why we have a reduction of 2,500,000 hens since the Minister came into office.

Mr. Lemass

——by opening up alternative markets. Here were people capable of absorbing large quantities of our eggs and the possible developments are such that the trade is likely to extend. This Bill is solely to protect and preserve the trade names of Spanish wines. We will do that with other countries when these countries act by us in the manner in which Spain has. The efforts made by us to protect our own trade names have not been successful. There is no reason why we should make an effort to protect the trade names of other countries. There is no reason why we should go further along that road of international co-operation until those other countries are prepared to act with us. If we can make arrangements with other nations involving improved trading prospects for this country—nations that grant protection of that kind to our interests abroad—we are prepared to do the same for them but there is no reason why we should rush in until there is evidence of a return to follow.

Mr. Dillon

Will the Minister deal with the clearing house question?

Mr. Lemass

So far as all our international trade with Spain or with other countries at the present time is concerned, there are difficulties arising from exchange restrictions. So far as Spain is concerned we have got the rights of the most favoured nation treatment in matters relating to exchange. The Spanish Government has, however, certain difficulties arising from its own internal economic situation which have resulted in delays in making exchange available for the payment of Irish exports to that country.

That position may be rectified by voluntary action—action which could be taken in relation to the Spanish trade similar to what was taken in relation to the German trade, where legislation was not required although some difficulty arose. It is not improbable that we may decide to put the matter upon a more regular footing by the introduction of legislation. Whether that legislation will relate only to the Spanish situation or to international trade in general is another question.

Question put and agreed to.

Committee Stage fixed for Wednesday, 19th February.