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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 14 May 1936

Vol. 62 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Financial Resolutions—Resolution No. 14—(General) (Resumed)

Debate resumed on motion No. 14:-
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.

I was dealing last evening, when the House rose, with the extraordinary statement or, I think I should prefer to call it, the extraordinary performance that we heard and witnessed on the part of the Minister for Industry and Commerce. We have had Ministers, on the Front Bench opposite, in the last three or four years behaving in a very extraordinary fashion, but I doubt if the House ever listened to the type of performance inflicted on it last evening by the Minister for Industry and Commerce. It was impossible to know whether he was caricaturing the type of speech that is supposed, proverbially, to be made at street corners or crossroads, or whether he was giving us a comic speech on the industrial position of the country.

There was but one portion of that long tirade that was, or at least seemed to me to be, important. I refer to one argument worked out in detail by the Minister. It was an argument that blew sky-high the bases upon which the Minister for Finance, and his Minister colleague, founded the favourable view which they took of the economic situation in the country. He argued—and here I admit he argued quite convincingly— that one of the principal objects the Government set before itself was the redistribution of national wealth. He pointed out, and again quite convincingly, that you could have a redistribution of national wealth without that having any reference to the productive capacity of the country; that, in fact, by such redistribution the country would be in a better purchasing position. He boasted that that was one of the principal achievements of the Government and he boasted that, as a result of that achievement, a large number of people now had money to spend that had not any before. But may I point out that, according to the Minister's statement, we have that spending capacity independent altogether of any increase in national wealth. But when I turn to the Budget statement and when I listened to the Minister for Industry and Commerce, when his antics allowed me to listen to him, I found he repeated again and again that increase in spending capacity implies an improved economic position in the country. I find it difficult to reconcile that argument with that put forward, so convincingly, by the Minister for Industry and Commerce. He proved that according to his policy the mere redistribution of national wealth gives considerably improved purchasing power to the community; and consequently, we have in that alone the obvious explanation, not of the economic health of the country but of the health of the Budget, which is an entirely different thing. That was clearly demonstrated not by the Minister for Finance, but by his colleague here last evening, in the only reasoned portion of his statement.

I quite admit that a great portion of the work of the Government consists merely in the national redistribution of wealth, combined with the destructive work which they have accomplished at the expense of the principal industry of the country, and therefore at the expense of industry as a whole. Combined with the destruction of national industry you have undoubtedly the redistribution which, as the Minister pointed out, enables people to spend more. But the Minister's argument slashes pretty effectively the rosy picture that has been painted in the statement of his colleague the Minister for Finance. You can do what the Minister for Industry and Commerce said; undoubtedly that can be done. It can be done for a number of years without any increase, and even with the destruction of national wealth— and that is what is going on in the country. We must look not at one particular industry, but we must take town and country together. Are we to be told, leaving the future out of account and promises in which the members of the Government are so prolific, and merely calling attention to their claims, that at the present moment, and in the last year and the year before, the condition of the country is economically so sound that the people have more money to spend because there is more money in the country? That unfortunately does not follow. I think anyone who knows the condition of the country as a whole, and not merely the sheltered or protected industries but what is generally admitted as our main industry, must admit that there has been great destruction of national wealth accompanied by what the Minister, following the Vice-President on previous occasions, calls the policy of redistribution. Undoubtedly that redistribution has turned out temporarily to the advantage of the Budget. But this House and the country must face the problem as to how long that will continue. That it can continue indefinitely is impossible. The disquieting thing is that the Government is satisfied about it. They are going to achieve more, they say, but they are satisfied the country is now in a healthy condition, capable of bearing more taxation. Is not the evidence even from this Budget speech of the Minister, cleverly hidden as it is, that the tendency is in the upper direction so far as taxes are concerned?

The Government themselves, in the person of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, who, whatever his faults may be, is one of the foremost propagandists, demonstrates clearly that the spending capacity, reflected in the revenue return, is explained not by increase in national wealth but by mere redistribution. The Minister went on —and was quite satisfied—I myself was amazed—to explain how the Government has dealt in the past four years that they were in office with the problem of unemployment. He said no responsible person in the Fianna Fáil Party ever promised that this problem would be solved in a short time, or in a few years. But I have here a statement from no less a person than Mr. Lemass—he was not then Minister for Industry and Commerce—which says:

"Fianna Fáil believed that if properly faced the unemployed problem could be solved in 12 months."

The 12 months have passed and there is no indication in this Budget, nor has there been any indication in previous Budgets, that we are nearer a solution of the unemployment question. Is not every Unemployment Vote we have had in this year or last year a confession that the Government cannot solve this question in the way they proposed to solve it when out of office and during their first year of office— by providing work in productive industries? The social services are frequently referred to as an excuse for increased taxation. Why the increased taxation should be debited with the whole of the increased cost of the social services and why none of the social services should be set off against the money retained from Great Britain, I do not know. We were told that if that money was withheld our social services could be improved. Why is the sum of £3,500,000, representing the increased cost of social services, debited to the new taxation? That can be done only for the purpose of throwing dust in the eyes of the Labour Party, who are not represented here at the moment.

Unemployment was to be dealt with in 12 months! We know the boast that was made by the head of the Government:

"We have a cure for unemployment such as no other country has. Do not let Mr. Cosgrave make you satisfied with the present position."

It is, perhaps, a pity that the physicians did not attempt to make their cure effective. Perhaps they did try, and found that their cure was a poisonous one so far as unemployment was concerned. They have put a certain number into employment, but they have deranged and upset what up to a few years ago was an established industry in a large portion of the country. Paying every tribute to what they have done as regards certain industries, granting everything they claim, that is more than offset by the damage they have done to what, even they will still admit, is the basic industry of the country. The Minister spoke of numbers last evening. Incidentally, he gave us an idea of how to get those numbers. He got some pieces of paper and performed some juggling tricks with them! That was his own description of how he got some numbers. I am afraid he applies that to all numbers when he comes into this House. He did not face the question of the huge number on the unemployed list. He has given explanations again and again of that. He said we had an increasing population. We may or may not have. That is a matter which can only be tested when we see the census figures. There are two things to be borne in mind. As the primary teaching profession well knows, there seems to be a decline in the population in large portions of the country. Otherwise the Minister's colleague, the Minister for Education, would not be presented with one of the problems he has to face at present. Although the Minister may ignore the fact, people living in different portions of the country are aware that there is steady and very considerable emigration to England, such as had not taken place previously. There may or may not be an increase in population. The Minister's statements, made here last evening, should not be accepted without careful scrutiny and considerable scaling down. But suppose we take the Minister at his word, in four years all he can boast of is an increase of 46,000 put into work. Is not that a confession—if we have not emigration on a large scale-that employment is not keeping pace with the growth of population? I am taking the Minister's two claims—that there is no serious emigration and that 46,000 persons additional have been put into work in four years. I doubt if he has done that, but, accepting that claim, has he kept pace with the number added to the population? Surely not. Yet we have the Minister telling us in his usual blatant fashion that not merely is he satisfied with what has been done, but that he has been amazed at what has been done, despite the obstacles and despite the unforeseen manner in which the economic war had deranged their plans. I thought that the economic war was the economic salvation of this country. Were we not told when the country was plunged into that war that it was a blessing in disguise? Now it has deranged the plans of the Government for dealing with one of their principal tasks—the solution of the unemployment problem.

The Minister, acting presumably in the manner he described—juggling with figures—spoke of so many people having been put on the land. He was asked if that meant paid employees. He said it included farmers and farmers' sons. When we are dealing with unemployment figures, we are always told by the Minister for Industry and Commerce that we cannot take these figures seriously because, since he came into office, people are more ready to register. Precisely the same thing is happening on the land. It pays farmers to be more careful about registration now than it did before, even in the direction of getting national health certificates and cards. Certain palpable and definite advantages are to be got out of registration. Therefore, a great portion of that figure of 10,000, which is supposed to represent extra employment on the land, must be discontinued. That is an increase in better registration and not an increase in employment. The Minister said his aim was to have an improved standard of living. I am sorry that, when he was speaking, there was only one member of the Labour Party present. To those very faithful allies of the Government I should like to put a question as to whether they are satisfied that, as a result of the economic policy of the Government, they are going to have an improved standard of living for the worker. If we take the farming industry and a number of other industries into account, it would seem that there is a diminution not merely in the real wages, but in the nominal wages. Is that going to lead to an improved standard of living for the community? That is a problem, I suggest, that the Labour Party might tackle with the Minister —the whole question of the cost of living to the ordinary working man as a direct result of the policy of the Government. A serious diminution in the wages pool and in the average wage of the worker, particularly the agricultural worker—that is what they have to show in that branch of effort for their four years in office.

A number of people expressed a certain amount of satisfaction with the Budget statement of the Minister. I admit that in one of the most confused statements he has presented to this House, quite a number of things were not made clear, and other things, possibly, were made clear which were not facts. I am not going to deal with the actual type of speech—we are accustomed to that—but as this is a matter dealing with the Budget as a whole, it seems to me to be of primary importance. Last year everybody in this House and in this State remembers the furore caused by the Minister's Budget. Everybody remembers the uproar caused by the ruthless and merciless manner in which he taxed the prime necessities of life. That was the attitude of this House as a whole—I think, even in his own Party, though the members of it followed him into the Division Lobby. That was the attitude of the country towards his conduct afterwards. Has there been any essential change from that conduct? Have any reliefs been given in consequence of the heavy burden imposed last year? What is the most he has done for the people and the most they got out of it? How did he try to relieve the burden that he put on every man, woman and child in the country last year, no matter how poor they were? A farthing a pound off sugar. That is all. Three half-pence in the week, in the average working family. That is what he has to give the people.

Will the Deputy give the basis of that calculation?

Seven pounds of sugar in the week at a farthing a pound. Three half-pence, or a penny three-farthings. I will give the extra farthing.

Things like that do not matter to the Deputy.

They are amongst some of the Minister's reliefs. It is the kind of interruption that the Minister makes. Gets at the real root of the matter!

Even sealed lips would be opened by this.

The Minister kept silent last night when I was dealing with a certain passage. His attitude when directly challenged was quod scripsi, scripsi. It is written. That is all the explanation. Now we have the penny three-farthings a week, the great relief that this Budget gives to the ordinary working family! These very heavy impositions were put on the people last year, but now, such is the condition to which this country has been reduced that even there is relief to find that the ordinary working family gets a reduction of a penny three-farthings a week, or three half-pence if they only use six pounds. And they can wait even for that. The Minister will not give it too soon. Is it not an extraordinary condition to have reduced the people to, that they are satisfied that there are not new taxes piled on year after year, while there is a diminution of national wealth and a diminution of national prosperity, owing to the conduct of the Government? The country breathes a sigh of relief because the Minister has no new obvious burden to put upon it. Does that mean that there is any change of heart? I felt that the Minister was almost sorry he had any relief to give when he was making his Budget statement. Furthermore, as Deputy Cosgrave pointed out in his broadcast speech last evening, this has to be borne in mind that there are certain charges not met this year, which had to be met last year, amounting to well over £900,000. Over £400,000 has been saved by the Conversion Loan owing to the diminution of the rate of interest and the sinking fund. Over £500,000 is also represented by decreased export bounties, so that there is over £900,000 less in these two items to be met. Yet, the only relief the Minister can give as a consequence is a farthing a pound off sugar! As I am dealing with sugar, I wonder what is the purpose of two paragraphs in the Minister's statement. They illustrate a certain attitude of mind on the part of the Minister, and I draw attention to it. Exactly a page of the Budget statement is given to this question. I wonder if that had any purpose, seeing the irresponsible way the “lazy to walk” reference was put in.

Is the word lazy used in the whole statement?

It is implied.

That is like the Deputy's statement about the three-farthings.

Excuse me, I did not say that the Minister used the words but that was the implication, and with all respect to the Minister, his words are not yet verbally inspired. We must take the obvious meaning. If that was not the meaning I should like to know what it was. He will not tell us what was the meaning. It may be that what is on pages eight and nine of his statement has no meaning. If it was to convey any meaning to the public I suggest it is this, that before the present remission the tax on sugar was .6 of a penny less than it was under the previous regime. I presume that was the purpose of the statement. It is a very interesting illustration of the deception of the public by half-truths. I am sorry, Sir, if I have nearly transgressed the bounds.

It is pleasing to see the Deputy so sensitive in that respect; would that all Deputies followed that excellent example!

It is a half-truth.

We will give the Deputy the other half.

The Minister for Finance can have it so—a full untruth. The effect to the public will be the suggestion that sugar is taxed, before the present remission .6 of a penny less than it was in our time. That illustrates the difference between the real taxation and the nominal taxation of the people. Taking into account what the people are paying for their sugar as a result of Government policy, and the way in which some industries are helped by taxation by means of various devices—such as the way in which the sugar industry is helped—the real taxation that the public have to meet for sugar is much higher than the Minister mentioned on page eight of his statement. It is quite true that 1d. per lb. is the average amount of tax that the Minister got into the Treasury but that is not what the mother of a family has to consider but what she has to pay extra as a result of the policy of the Government. The average then will be very different, as there will have to be taken into account not merely the nominal taxation but the increased cost of sugar as a result of putting on 2¼d. excise duty. That brings up the price of all sugar including Irish sugar by 2¼d. This is an excellent illustration, I hold, of the manner in which the public can be fooled.

There is no evidence in this statement, if the finances of the country as presented in the statement are examined carefully, of any change of heart. It is the same spendthrift Government that is still in office, that determines to go ahead whether or not they are destroying the wealth of the country, as they have done in the case of agriculture already. There is a great boast of industry set up. I wonder if the Government have ever put the problem to themselves whether these new industries are being financed out of new money, out of the increased product of existing industries? I suppose they have not. I do not, once more, wish to deal at length with the number of taxes which people now have to pay and which do not appear here but they are quite relevant because when we are asked to express approval of the Budget statement of the Minister, the total burden placed on the people by the Minister and by the policy of the Government, is one of the most relevant considerations we could take into account. What the people have to pay extra for sugar, flour, bacon, cement, meat and butter as a result of Government fiscal, financial and economic policy, does not appear in the Budget statement but is none the less a real charge on the people of this country. These are not the only things.

If the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Industry and Commerce go down Grafton Street and the Minister for Finance buys a ready-made English suit, and the Minister for Industry and Commerce a ready-made Irish suit of the same type they pay the same price. It will be admitted that the Minister for Finance pays taxes on his suit, but apparently, his colleague does not pay taxes on the suit he has purchased! Yet, he is paying exactly the same taxes as the Minister for Finance would be. He is paying the same 50/- for the suit that the Minister for Finance would pay. The Minister for Finance includes taxes in his payment. The Minister for Industry and Commerce believes that he is not paying taxes but he is doing it quite as effectively as his colleague——

I do not go to the same tailor as the Deputy for my 50/- suit.

My portrait was never sent round to catch votes, like that of the pretty Minister. I do not think I ever did that to catch votes. The Minister did on a celebrated occasion and he is satisfied. Why is it that those who are supposed to represent the working classes of this country are silent on a Budget which maintains the cost of living so high? Social services are the excuse. They were to be paid for out of the moneys that were to be withheld from Great Britain. Yet, the Labour Party will vote for, and consent to the continuance of, the heavy burden put on the people last year. Not one of them will raise his voice against it, much less vote against it. When an important Estimate was before this House recently I put what seemed to me a very clear and definite question upon which the country could make up its own mind. In connection with the Estimate for the Minister for Agriculture, which showed an enormous increase in expenditure, I asked this question: Is the condition of agriculture such as to give any justification whatsoever for this increase? I put the same question now as regards the Budget as a whole.

Take the enormous taxes that have been piled up by this Government. The Minister for Industry and Commerce last evening did not know how certain figures were arrived at. Naturally, he cannot arrive at the figures given from these benches if he deliberately shuts out certain taxes or burdens the people have to bear. If you take into account the increased taxation and the concealed taxes that are now borne by the country—taking these alone into account and leaving out of consideration altogether what people pay when they buy tariffed goods—the increased taxation and the concealed taxes alone amount to about £10,000,000 more this year than in 1931-32. For one year that is not a bad contribution to the £25,000,000 mentioned by Deputy McGilligan but spread it over four years and ask yourselves whether, for all the millions spent in these four years, a proper return has been given by the Government. We are told that 45,000 have been put into employment. That is a figure we receive with the greatest reserve, but I do not want to enter fully into that aspect of the matter at the moment. That is the main result of the immense increase in the cost of running this country! That is what they have to show, that is what they have to boast of. To what condition have they reduced the basic industry of the country—agriculture? Remember, if we are serious in holding it as the basic industry, it means that if you treat that industry, as the Government have been treating it in the last four years, not merely must that industry ultimately come down but the other industries that depend on that basic industry must come down as well. You can keep them alive for a number of years by the policy of wealth redistribution. Because in past years an amount of wealth had been put by which is now being used up, it is the reserves of the nation, not the earnings of the nation, that are financing new efforts. Into the wisdom of that policy we need not go at the moment; I limit myself to pointing out that while that is being done, the basic industry is being destroyed. Yet, as I pointed out last evening, in the very first page of this Budget statement you have the Minister for Finance expressing satisfaction at the alleged flourishing state of agriculture. A certain amount of the increased yield in taxation must be due, as he thinks, to the success not merely of industrial policy but to the success also of the agricultural policy of the Government. If the rest of his arguments about the prosperity of the country are equal to that, anybody who knows the countryside can judge of their soundness. I am making all allowance you wish for what certain individuals have made or lost by growing wheat. Making every allowance for that, taking the farming community as a whole, taking the wealth position as a whole, is there any sane man in the country who believes that at the present moment Irish industry, including agriculture, is in a healthy condition? Does he not know perfectly well—I am taking their main products, cattle, wheat, butter, eggs, poultry, pigs, all into account—that the farmers are getting a great deal less for what they sell and paying a great deal more for the foodstuffs they have still to buy than was the case in 1931? How, in the face of that, can we have any confidence in a Minister or a Government that puts in the forefront of its Budget statement the flourishing condition of agriculture as an explanation of the increased purchasing power of the Irish community and their ability to pay taxes? The thing, of course, is ludicrous. It is only when Ministers go down the country and have to speak at a meeting representative of the countryside, or when they go down to a country town where the people know the condition of the farming community, that we have crocodile tears shed about the hard lot of the farmer and of the agricultural labourer. The Ministers have nothing but sympathy for them there, a recognition that they have been hard hit. But, when they come into this House, what do we get? Formal statements by the Minister for Finance and reckless statements by his colleague the Minister for Industry and Commerce implying that the condition of agriculture is sound.

What have we gained by the expensive policy of the Government? What have we gained nationally? A republic for the whole of Ireland! Have the £30,000,000 or £40,000,000, spent in excess over the figures for 1931, brought us an inch further on the road to the realisation of that particular ambition? Has the national honour been in any way maintained better as a result of that sacrifice on the part of the people? What result have we to show for it economically? None. Instead, we have had the undermining of our whole economic life by the deliberate and desperate attack that has been made on the main basic industry of this country. Can anybody tell what is the Government's policy in regard to that industry? We were told last night by the Minister for Industry and Commerce that, at the end of this month, the bounty on calf skins is to go. Does that mean that the Government are satisfied that there has been enough destruction of the future wealth of the country? The Minister boasted that all our disposable surplus of cattle was being got rid of. How has that been brought about? By the coal-cattle pact, a clear demonstration of the hopelessness and wrong-headedness of the self-sufficiency policy preached by the Government and by the deliberate destruction of the future wealth of the country. It did not matter to Ministers that by the senseless policy of calf destruction the future wealth of the country was thus destroyed, and that difficulties were being piled up for the farming community if ever they should get a chance of righting themselves. That did not matter to the Government. They went right ahead feeling, apparently, that if the people had less cattle then possibly they might not complain so much. It did not weigh in the slightest with Ministers that the people's total wealth was being gravely diminished by their policy, or that the future wealth of the country was being gravely endangered. They have nothing to show to justify the enormous expenditure they have piled upon the people.

I have pointed out that, in the course of this year, the Government have demonstrated by their coal-cattle pact the futility of their policy of self-sufficiency, and not merely the desirability but the absolute necessity of the English market. If one looks at this Budget and considers last year's Budget, it can be said that nobody has ever demonstrated so clearly the bankruptcy of the Government's policy as a method for dealing with unemployment as the Government themselves by their conduct. Their one idea, even before they got into office and for a couple of years afterwards, for dealing with unemployment was tariffs. Put on tariffs, they said, and unemployment will vanish in the morning. That was their great panacea for all the evils from which this country is suffering, but what do we find? What they disguise under the name of social services —provision for paying the unemployed who cannot get work, and the setting up of an Employment Fund. That is what the Government have been reduced to: an Employment Fund that is not to deal with reproductive work but rather with work on the roads which, in the olden days, was regarded as distress work. Faced with the results of their self-sufficiency policy, the Government have been compelled by their actions—and it is by their actions and not by their words they must be judged—to admit the failure of that policy and they have to admit the bankruptcy of their unemployment policy; and for that the people have paid tens of millions in the last four years.

I have never been able to get from the Minister for Agriculture what is his policy as regards cattle. On Tuesday we had the Minister for Finance boasting, on the one hand, of the success of killing calves, and on the other of utilising the coal-cattle pact. It seems to me that if there is to be any development hoped for under the coal-cattle pact these two things run directly counter one to the other. I know, of course, that contradictions of that kind, and conflicts of policy of that kind, do not make the slightest difference to Ministers.

If this Budget is carefully examined the people of the country have more ground for complaint this year than they had last year; every person in the country will admit that he had plenty of ground for complaint last year. But what does this Budget do? It proposes that the policy of last year is to be continued, and, further, that the burdens of last year are not to be reduced. If one takes into account the fact that something slightly less than £1,000,000 is being charged this year as compared with last year on the two services I mentioned, it has still to be borne in mind that heavier burdens have been placed on the people or, as the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance would put it, placed on the necessaries of life so that people cannot avoid them. That is the Budget that we are asked to receive with thankfulness because it represents the attitude of a generous Government!

It has been said that blessed is he who expects nothing for he will not be disappointed. I confess I do not feel one of the blessed as regards this particular Budget, and I believe that my feelings are shared by the general public. The Minister probably congratulates himself on this, that he has not had to ask for any extra expenditure, but is any single son of Adam to be absolved merely because he says, "I have committed no new fault," and yet does not show any particular evidence of reform. There were expectations in the minds of the majority of the people that in this Budget the Minister would give some reliefs. I was speaking to various classes of people before the Budget was introduced and they were expecting some considerable reliefs. Practically the total relief granted under the Budget is to be found in a farthing per pound off sugar. That is very little, and will be nil to a considerable number of the population—to the very people who need it most; the people who buy in small quantities, the old age pensioners and people of that ilk who buy perhaps a quarter pound of tea and a pound of sugar. Mind you, that is a very general purchase. That is the weekly allowance for a poor old couple —a quarter pound of tea and a pound of sugar—and their relief is going to be a farthing.

We have been taxed many millions extra since 1931-32 and what has the general public in general got in the way of relief because of that huge extra expenditure? The Minister, in his Budget statement, congratulated himself on the extra expenditure of £3,500,000 on social reliefs. I might remind the Minister that a considerable portion of this extra expenditure on social reliefs became necessary because of the policy of the Minister and his colleagues. Because of their failure to provide employment for the bulk of the people in this country there was extra need for a large portion of this expenditure. Is the expenditure of an extra £3,500,000 on social reliefs, in the present circumstances in which the Ministry find themselves, anything to boast about, when we remember that £3,000,000 of that £3,500,000 or whatever amount it is, was already there for the Minister to dispose of? There was nest-egg of in or about £3,000,000 for the Minister for Finance before he proceeded to tax the people in his Budget. There was £1,000,000 under the collection of annuities, and about £2,000,000, I believe, under the savings of what hitherto was paid in the way of R.I.C. pensions, local loans and other things. Possibly, there were other savings as well in that regard, but there certainly was this figure of £3,000,000, so that one might have expected that an additional amount, even beyond the £3,500,000, might have been given in the way of reliefs, because everybody will admit that reliefs have become increasingly necessary since this Government came into office.

In addition to that £3,000,000 which the Minister had under his thumb, the general public and the people who received this relief were themselves paying a very great sum. In fact, I am not quite sure that if we went into a minute calculation we could not prove that the poor, the people who are working, and so on, paid the whole of this amount. Since the advent of this Government they are spending a farthing a lb. more on sugar, 4d. a lb. more on tea, 5d. a lb. more on butter, an extra 25 to 75 per cent. on most articles of daily use, whether apparel or otherwise, and something approaching 7/- to 10/- extra—I do not know the exact sum—on their sack of flour. If any ordinary working-man cares to make a simple calculation, he will probably find, if he has an average family of six or seven, that his extra expenditure amounts practically to the sum total of the relief which he or his family receives.

The Minister devoted a considerable portion of his Budget speech to the resuscitation—that was not his particular word, but it amounted to that —in the condition of the farmers, and we were told that his glorious Budget and the prosperity of the country were mainly attributable to the increasing prosperity of the farmer under the policy of the Government. The Minister has given some couple of million pounds in bounties of one kind or another to the farmer. That again has become necessary because of the policy of the Ministry. On his produce, the farmer pays a tax of £5,000,000 to England, and he probably pays the equivalent of that amount on the portion of his produce purchased for home consumption. It may not amount exactly to £5,000,000, but it would come pretty close to it. We may take it, therefore, that because of the policy of the Ministry some £8,000,000 or £10,000,000 is collected off the produce of the farmers. Is the farmer to get down on his bended knees and thank the Minister for a couple of million pounds expended on bounties and subsidies when because of the policy of the Government some £8,000,000 or £10,000,000 has been extracted against his will from the sale price of his produce? There is nothing to be thankful for as far as the farmer is concerned. There is much to regret, and much to expect from the Ministry in the way of assistance to carry on. Bounties and subsidies will scarcely suffice to relieve the farmer to the extent that he is being impoverished in other directions.

The Minister is borrowing for half of those bounties and subsidies. Even with all the care which he took in the manipulation of his Budget, he was not able to provide sufficient to pay the whole amount of the bounties and subsidies; half of it is to be borrowed. I might say to the Minister that the farmer does not want any portion of his relief to be a burden on posterity. In fact, he does not want to be a burden either on the present or future generations. All he wants is to be allowed a fair chance to compete on equal terms with the farmers across the present temporary barrier in this island of ours. If he is allowed to compete with them on equal terms he will not need the subsidies and bounties which the Minister has given, nor will he ask to be any charge either on the present generation or on posterity.

What have the public in general gained because of the extra expenditure of from £8,000,000 to £10,000,000 between 1931-32 and 1935-36? Is there any section of the community, outside, perhaps, a limited number of people engaged in manufacture, who have benefited to any degree because of the policy of the Ministry? Is there not rather evidence of the fact that almost every other section of the population have declined in prosperity during the interval of the last four years? Despite a huge expenditure to help the unemployed, and the working people generally, the condition of the labouring people in this State is definitely worse than it was in 1931-32. There is, I am sorry to say, a greatly increased number of unemployed, which is in itself evidence that the policy of the Government has not had altogether the beneficial effects which one might imagine from the statements of the Minister. I do not know the exact number to date, but there is a considerable increase in unemployed as compared with 1931-32. Even taking the people who are employed, the people who are in receipt of wages, is their position better? Is there a general increase in the wages they receive? I think the evidence is rather the other way round. Can even the diminished wage which the majority of them receive be expended to as good advantage as it could be in 1931-32? Is there not every evidence to show that the expenditure of 15/- in 1931-32 would provide as much as the expenditure of £1 to-day? The people who have been left in permanent employment have had their conditions greatly worsened since the advent of the present Government. I might say, in passing, that much of the relief given to the unfortunate unemployed to tide them over the period until there will be some hope of employment is provided by their brethren who are working for a niggardly wage. As I say, they pay something on practically every article they wear, use or consume.

It used to be the position in this State that, unless a man or woman smoked or drank, he or she contributed very little in the way of taxation; but that can no longer be said. Almost every individual in this State contributes his pretty fair share, and some more than their fair share of the extra taxation imposed upon them by the Government, and the burden is greater on the very poor than on the very rich. There is not a proper distribution of taxation, even if it were agreed that the amount of taxation is fair. The amount of taxation extracted from the very poor is out of all proportion to their wage-earning capacity, and is greater than that extracted from the middle classes or the rich. Yet the Government call themselves a poor man's Government. If the poor man and the working-men of this State were ever cursed with a Government, it is the Fianna Fáil Government, from whatever angle you look at it. Almost 100,000 of their brethren have been added to the roll of unemployed who need doles, relief and public assistance to maintain them, and those lucky ones who remain in employment have had their wages reduced and suffer in other ways which make the amount they receive of less value, comparatively, than it was four or five years ago.

There was one bright spot in the Minister's statement, or, at least, the Minister said it was a bright spot. He said that in spite of all our difficulties and, I might say, tragedies, we were able to expend more on drink, that there was more money spent on drinking last year than there was for some years previously. I do not know that we have given any evidence in the last eight or ten years of being a very thirsty nation. I think everything points to the reverse. There is, however, a chalk line somewhere, and, whether you look at it from the point of view of "drinks" or "eats," if there is a decline in the consumption of either, the time will come when the decline can get no further and I believe we reached that point some time during the last few years. Of necessity, we had to come to a point when there would be some little revival. It is nothing to pride oneself on and it certainly is not any line to take on the general prosperity of the State. There is no great consumption of drink in this country. In fact, I believe our consumption of drink is less than that of any free country perhaps in the world, and possibly there is need of assistance to the brewing and distilling industries in this country.

There might have been an expectation in the minds of the majority of people in this country that some relief would have been given to those two great industries and to the people who depend on those industries for their living. It could be done without any fear of ill consequences in the way of extra consumption of liquor. I believe that in this State we are a people who drink less than the people of the majority of other countries. A little drink is necessary for many people, and the people who need it most find it most difficult to get it. There are men engaged in certain forms of work to whom drink is perhaps a necessity and if, say, the pint of stout could be reduced in price by ½d. or a 1d., it would be a considerable relief to many individuals and to many household budgets. I can possibly say that more freely than many other Deputies, as I am, I think, like the Minister himself, not a partaker of strong liquors, but I do see a necessity for liquor for people in certain laborious occupations, and I see also the difficulty which many of these people have in providing themselves with a beverage at present prices and I think that the time has come when there should be some relief given in that respect.

Most of the ground has been covered by speakers who preceded me. The main point to which I want to address myself—and I have stated a little about it already—is the position of the farmers. Notwithstanding all the Minister has said, there is not a Deputy in this House, on whatever side he sits, who can say that the position of any section of the farmers—and I definitely say any section—has been improved since 1931-32. There can be no great improvement in their position until they are enabled to sell their produce somewhere without the extraction of taxation from it. There is, or ought to be, a free market within easy reach of these shores. It was there before the advent of Fianna Fáil and will possibly be there when Fianna Fáil is no longer here. The advantages of that market are obvious. When the Minister needed to make a pact with Britain, he found he could more easily make it through the medium of agricultural produce than through any other. In fact, it was the only way he could make a trade pact, and, in doing so, the Minister found that he had to withdraw most of what he and other Ministers said in the last few years, that the market for agricultural produce in England had declined, that it was rapidly dying and that in a short time it would no longer be there. Instead of that we find that, during the past six or eight months, there has been an increase in the demand for agricultural produce of almost every kind in England and that we could in fact send more to England in the way of live stock than we have been sending. I am quite certain that, if it became necessary for the Minister to make a new trade pact with England in the next six months, he could so arrange it that an extra number of cattle, beyond the amount we are sending now, could be taken and would be taken by England; but the crux would then arise as to whether we would have the available cattle in the event of another trade pact taking place, or even if we had free trade intercourse with England again. I am very much afraid that we will not have them. Part of the policy of the Ministry in the past few years was to destroy a number of the cattle we had, and I think that at the present moment—any cattle exporter will bear me out on this; I am sure Deputy Finlay and other Deputies will bear me out—we find it difficult to provide enough cattle of a particular type for the English market. Cattle, up to two years and over, are particularly scarce at the moment and are fetching pretty good prices because of their scarcity. That scarcity has been brought about by the destruction of calves in the two preceding years, and that scarcity, to my mind, will be more obvious in the coming year. Possibly, it is something to congratulate ourselves upon that the Minister this year has so far gone back on his policy as only to ask for £60,000 instead of £300,000 for that particular object. Perhaps the Minister for Agriculture felt that it would not be politic to admit defeat all at once and that it was better to make a gradual climb down. Anyhow, the sum demanded for calf-skins this year was much less than it was in the two preceding years, and I assume that next year it will have entirely disappeared. I hope so, at any rate, and I hope that with the disappearance of the bounty on calf-skins there will be in the next Budget, not a provision for the shipment of calf-skins to England, but a provision that will entice people in this country to rear more cattle and more calves, and to give people encouragement, not alone to rear the calf, but to rear it well, because whatever may be the policy of the Ministry in regard to tillage and other things, live stock will be the one thing for which the farmer will always be certain of a good market.

We had always a market for our live stock and we could have had a market for more live stock than we shipped. It is almost certain that we will have that market always. In fact, it is difficult to foresee that we will have an alternative market for any other agricultural produce except cattle, and I think we would be wise to direct our activities rather along the line of extending that particular market than of destroying it. There is no necessity, while doing that, for us to depart from, if you like, the Fianna Fáil policy of encouraging tillage. The two things can run side by side. I do believe that tillage would have progressed just as well side by side with the old policy of dairying and live stock as it progressed with the intensive assistance that the Minister gave it in the way of subsidies. If there has been any evidence in the last three years of a considerable advance in the amount of tillage in this country it has been, not as a result of the Minister's encouragement and persuasion of people to go in for extra tillage, but because owing to Government policy the existing economy in agriculture had broken down and because the other lines, such as live stock, the feeding of live stock, dairying, and so on, had become a losing proposition, and naturally the farmers grasped at any straw that they hoped might lead to some relief. Even though tillage, with the bounties and subsidies, was not a greatly paying proposition for the farmer, nevertheless, if it was not altogether a losing project, he grasped at it, and it was because of that fact that we had an increased acreage in tillage in the last three or four years.

That is a matter more relevant to agriculture than to finance.

Well, Sir, I have finished with it now. I just wanted to illustrate the prosperity the Minister boasted about.

Only for purposes of illustration was the Deputy allowed to proceed so far.

I think I have sufficiently dealt with it, and the House, I hope, needs no illustration of the adversity or the prosperity of the farmers. Time and again it has been demonstrated in this House, and I think sufficiently demonstrated for any average Deputy to be able to make up his mind upon it, but repetition sometimes becomes necessary—in fact, the more often a thing is repeated, perhaps, the more effective it is. Some of us have to keep repeating the farmers' grievances and, God knows, some of us have repeated them in plenty, and we will keep on repeating them until there is some hope of relief, but I do expect and hope, if the Minister is here with us for another Budget, that he will be able to offer greater hopes to the farming community than he has offered in the introduction of this Budget, and, as well as to the farming community, to the unfortunate working people of this country, whether employed or unemployed, because for my part I believe that the people that are employed are sacrificing, perhaps, almost as much as the people who are receiving doles, outdoor relief, and such artificial helps. As I said, their purchasing power has diminished considerably owing to the tariff policy of the Ministry. There will be no light hearts in the State because of the Minister's Budget. Perhaps there will be some feeling of satisfaction amongst a minority that the burden was not increased, but amongst the great majority there was a hope that there would be reliefs and considerable reliefs, in this Budget, and because of the absence of those reliefs there is a general feeling of disappointment.

This Budget debate has been marked by the usual pleasant little verbal interludes which we have been led to expect from the Opposition in recent years. It appears that no steps we could take to satisfy the Opposition would succeed, not merely in satisfying them, but even in placating them. This year's Budget is admitted on all sides to be a slight improvement on last year's Budget, and yet even that much is not appreciated by the Opposition as it should be. They claim that the Budget should be even better than it is. I dare say that, if we attained to that happy position, a state of absolute perfection—a condition never yet reached by any Government—we might be able to satisfy them. I was struck, however, by Deputy Bennett's closing sentences. It struck me that they manifested a rather more pacific tone than that generally displayed by the Opposition, and perhaps in the Deputy's utterances we may see the hope of better days to come, and may hope that the Opposition will abandon the policy of purely factious criticism and that they will join whole-heartedly with the Government in its present policy.

We have had all sorts of criticism, varying from the rather acidulated remarks of Deputy McGilligan to the windy jeremiads of Deputy Dillon. The strange thing about it all is that, like a famous character in poetry—and I regret that my friend, Deputy Burke, is non-existent for the time being —after all these jeremiads, neither the Government nor the country appear to be any the worse off. To an onlooker coming from another country, and taking this country as a whole, and seeing the state of general cheerfulness in which the people go around, and the way money is lavished wholesale on luxuries as well as on necessities, it might appear that this country is on the up-grade. Apparently, however, the Party opposite is bent on persuading us that we are getting worse and worse. They are acting the role of the fat boy in Pickwick, they are doing their best to make our flesh creep. We refuse to allow our flesh to creep, and we refuse to creep in any way.

This Budget has an up-grade tendency, if I may coin the phrase. The proof of that is that the Press of the country, not the "Press" that is sometimes quoted as our Press, but that portion of the Press which adequately expresses the mentality of the Opposition—excellent journals, no doubt, but tinged, to my mind, with a certain touch of imperialism that does not commend itself entirely to me—even those journals have given this Budget a limited, a guarded, but nevertheless a decided, approval. If the Press of our country, as has been often claimed by the Opposition, adequately represents the feelings of those readers who buy it, if it represents their mentality, it is only fair to assume that the bulk of those who read in the Press opposite to that which is supposed to be our mouthpiece, approved of the Budget, slightly perhaps, but nevertheless that they approve of it, and that they give it their blessing, to a certain extent. That being so, I cannot very well see how the Opposition can belie their own Press. It is an anomalous position for them to occupy.

I do not wish to traverse the ground that has been covered already, and I think I would be straining very severely the latitude granted by the Chair if I were to follow the footsteps of members of the Opposition who ranged over the whole field from China to Peru, agriculturally and otherwise. Deputy Bennett says that he thinks the policy of tillage would have gone on coincident with the policy of grass encouraged by the previous Government if the live-stock industry had not been tampered with. He will forgive me if I dissent from that view. I maintain that this country was rapidly becoming a grass ranch when the present Government took office. The large ranchers and those farmers who approximated to large ranchers were only following the line of least resistance. It was much easier for them to look out of their drawing-room windows and gaze over their pastures, to watch the man with the dog or, if they could aspire to it, the man with two dogs. It was much easier to do that than to proceed to break up the land, to employ labour and undergo the myriad responsibilities attaching to the tillage of land, responsibilities of which men like Deputy Belton are well aware. That is the type of responsibility that entails expensive and terrific commitments, that entails an amount of energy and ability, of which, perhaps, Deputy Belton alone on the opposite benches is fully cognisant. I repeat that it was much easier to rear live stock, and to break away from the established line adopted by our predecessors required an amount of energy and responsibility which the present Government had the courage to undertake as part, not merely of a political campaign in answer to the threat hurled at us from across the Channel, but also as part of the movement for the ultimate betterment of the country.

I think Deputies will agree that it is a saddening thing to think that prior to the advent of the present Government the tendency was in the direction of lessening tillage. Had that policy been allowed to continue, then in the event of the cataclysm which threatens Europe taking place, this country would be faced with starvation just as in Black '47, though not perhaps under similar conditions. That is a rather serious thing to contemplate, and if this Government did nothing else but avoid that possibility, then they have done a good day's work. If I am straying somewhat from the Budget, I can plead I am merely following the bad example of those who have gone before me. I maintain that this Budget, whilst not sensational in any way, and whilst it may be regarded in certain circles as hum-drum and conservative, is nevertheless a good Budget. I speak of it from the point of view of one who likes to see a job well done. I consider this is a workmanlike job, and it is well done.

I do not know what alternative to this Budget the members of the Opposition would be prepared to propose, or whence they would propose to get the money that we suggest will be spent in relief works. I do not know what tactics they would be prepared to adopt. I presume they would have been satisfied to fall back on the good old catch-cry "Give us back our markets." That cry is becoming very conspicuous by its absence, and for that may the Lord be thanked. As regards the Budget, one cannot very well understand the acidulated criticism or the windy platitudes which have greeted it, except in so far as these were necessary to keep the political machine going, and assure the supporters of the Opposition that the Opposition itself are not quite defunct, but perhaps a trifle comatose. Otherwise I fail to see what rôle its critics fulfilled. There is nothing sensational about the Budget and it has promised nothing sensational. It runs along lines of well-defined and clearly-marked-out finance.

The trivial resentment which is apparent amongst the occupants of the Opposition benches, is due, not so much to the manner in which the Budget was presented, as to a slight sub-current of jealousy because the country, in spite of the jeremiads hurled against the Government for the last few years, has been able, not merely to survive, but, to use a phrase quite common amongst the members of the Fine Gael Party at one time, to get around the corner. If one takes the trouble to look around, one will see that conditions are definitely improving. The luxury trades and other things of that sort are doing well. If one takes up a newspaper and looks at the sporting pages, one will observe that the attendance at the Curragh yesterday surpassed the attendance in previous years. That may appear a trivial thing, no doubt, but a straw will show how the wind blows. It may be that the benefits of the Budget are allocated amongst the very few and are not spread over the majority of the people, but unquestionably those benefits must ultimately get back to the country as a whole.

A peculiar remark was made by Deputy O'Sullivan. When one challenges a man of his calibre one is venturing on very unsound ground. The Deputy was arguing that a nation may not be increasing its national wealth and still be increasing its expenditure. If such expenditure postulates a shifting of surplus cash from those who have to those who lack, I suggest heterodox though it be, that it is no bad thing. I do not think there is anything in this Budget to call for the type of criticism that has been launched at it. Criticism seems to be the be-all, the raison d'etre of the Opposition's existence. When we have arrived at that happy day when the Dillons cease from troubling and the Beltons are at rest, we may have attained the millennium. May one hope that that day is not too far off?

It would appear that the heresy which we found the Minister for Industry and Commerce guilty of last night has spread to the backbenchers. We have Deputy Kehoe re-echoing the same sentiments as were given expression to by the Minister last night. It was both amazing and alarming to the people of the country to gather from the Minister for Industry and Commerce that there was no relation between distribution and production, between taxation—taking the money and putting it into circulation —and production. In other words, the Minister appears to think that he may tax the people who have money as far as he can, and he can send that money around by way of purchasing power, and that that can continue without production. That seems to be also the heresy of which Deputy Kehoe is guilty. Deputy Kehoe referred to the Press, not meaning the Irish Press—of course he was very delicate in making the distinction. He says the Irish Press is credited with being the organ of the Fianna Fáil Party. Is it not better to say it is a Government organ, the organ of the Fianna Fáil Party? Let us be straight about it. He wanted to make the distinction that the other Press was quite favourable to the Budget.

The country approached Budget day this year in the same way as the rack-rented farmers approached the gale-day years ago. Their rents were raised year in and year out. Every time they went to pay the rent, it was raised for the next year. Then there came a year when it was not raised and they thanked God for it. That is exactly the position now. I suppose it is something to be thankful for, that perhaps Fianna Fáil have cried a halt at last, and notwithstanding what the Minister for Industry and Commerce has said, and Deputy Kehoe has said, they have come to the conclusion that you cannot keep extracting money from people all the time without producing something extra. If it is any indication that Fianna Fáil are coming to their senses in that respect it is all to the good. The Minister for Industry and Commerce, however, feels that there is no relation between production and spending. And Deputy Kehoe thinks that the Government can continue piling taxation on the people irrespective of production. In these circumstances we know to what the country is coming. I am a man of very moderate means myself, but if I borrowed money on whatever little assets I possess, or if I sold out my place I could, for a short time, live like a gentleman. I could live in luxury and extravagance. It is not difficult for any one to do a thing like that. There is no difficulty in the case of the State doing that sort of thing. That is what we are doing to-day.

Now let us see what it is for which we ought to be grateful. The Minister for Industry and Commerce last night told us that Deputy McGilligan, when speaking here on Tuesday, used certain figures with regard to taxation. I think he used the figure of £26,000,000 or £27,000,000, that is to say that the present Administration had extracted £26,000,000 or £27,000,000 extra from the people in the way of taxation since they came into office. The Minister for Industry and Commerce told us that he had added up, subtracted, divided and multiplied all the available material. He said that he added them backwards and crossways and he could not find in any shape or form what Deputy McGilligan was at. Of course he could not because he did not want to. He is an adept at that kind of thing. In the first year that Fianna Fáil came into office there was an addition to the taxation on the people of £3,950,250. That has been continued every year since. That is the kind of rack rent imposed on the people of this country and now we are asked by Deputy Kehoe and by the Minister for Industry and Commerce to thank God that the taxation has not been increased this year. In the second year Fianna Fáil were in office the taxation was increased by £140,000 over the first year. Both these increases had been kept on in succeeding budgets.

We are told this evening there was no increase in taxation, and the Minister for Industry and Commerce cannot find out where Deputy McGilligan got his figures. Of course he could not. The Minister also told us last night that Deputy McGilligan has raised a new hare, a new type of scare for the people of this country. He told us that Deputy McGilligan had found out something with which to scare the people. That was the fact that the Minister for Finance was able to balance his Budget this year, because of the great prosperity of the people across the water. The Minister for Industry and Commerce endeavoured to make great play with that. He endeavoured to make out how very ridiculous that sort of statement was. But the Minister should have known that on the very first page of the typescript of the Budget statement, the Minister for Finance said:—

"I admit willingly that for this satisfactory state of affairs we owe much to the general improvement in world economic conditions."

I am sure Deputy Kehoe knows what is behind that statement. That grudging admission by the Minister for Finance was the very thing to which Deputy McGilligan referred. It was that and nothing else.

If we are to consider whether this is or is not a good Budget we must consider it in its relations to and its reactions on the main industry. What are its relations to the main industry of the country? What are its reactions on that industry? Will these be advantageous? What have we got in this Budget which in any way makes up to the farming community for the privations from which they have been suffering in the past five years? What is there in that Budget which compensates them for the fact that they are obliged to pay the annuities and the local loans to the British Government by way of tariffs on their produce and that, at the same time, they have to pay those annuities over again to this Government? Is there something to be thankful for there? What is the position if we make any comparison between 1931, before Fianna Fáil came into office, and 1935? Will they make that comparison and relate it to the farming community? Let us take the figures supplied by the Minister for Industry and Commerce who, time and again, has advised Deputies to utilise the figures here supplied free of charge to them. I know that the Minister does not use them himself or if he does he uses them in a particular way.

If we take the farming community under any head whatsoever and make a comparison between the years 1931 and 1935, and estimate the taxable capacity of the people of this country in both years, we will find—and we must admit—the farmers are not able to bear anything to-day like what they were able to bear in 1931. Let us take live stock and the prices of live stock and let us take tillage as far as marketable value is concerned. Let us add them all up together, assess them, and then estimate the capacity of the farmer to carry taxation to-day as against 1931. Let us take the rates that the farmer had to bear in 1931 and the rates he has to bear to-day. Let us figure out all the farmer's burdens, his expenditure, his liabilities and his assets and then see what his position is. The Minister for Agriculture when in Opposition said that the farmer had to carry 80 per cent. of the taxation of the country. Let us compare the farmer's position in 1931 and in 1935 and see if he is in a position to bear his present burdens. Yet notwithstanding that, we are told to take off our hats and thank Fianna Fáil for not increasing taxation this year.

I have here figures taken from the Trade Journal issued by the Department of Industry and Commerce in relation to the prices of cattle. I find in that Journal that in 1931 two and three-year-old cattle were making on an average £14 7s. 6d.; in 1935 the average price was £6 17s. 9d. Three-year-olds in 1931 were fetching £16 2s. 6d; in 1935 the price was £7 18s. 3d. Fat cattle were sold in 1931 at an average price of £16 19s. 3d.; in 1935 the price was £8 12s. 6d. Fat cattle were sold in the Dublin market in 1931 at 39/6 per cwt.; in 1935 the price was 21/3. Notwithstanding, we have members of the Government Party, like Deputy Kehoe and others, standing up here and saying that this country is able to bear more taxation now. We have him saying that it is able—willingly and comfortably—to bear £10,000,000 more taxation to-day than in 1931, and that we ought to thank God and thank Fianna Fáil for that. We will give credit to Fianna Fáil for it, but we do not thank them for it.

In addition to that, we have in this Budget statement certain figures which show how the country does stand. I am afraid I must accuse the Minister for Finance of endeavouring to camouflage at least one item, and that is the Local Loans Fund, where he returns it as an asset of a certain character and of a certain amount which it does not represent. When Budget day comes and there is a yearly reckoning, it ought at least to be honest and it ought to be such as would show any person what the real state of affairs is. After all, it does not matter whether we are the Opposition or the Government, the credit of the country means everything to us and we must all take our stand upon it, but we ought to be honest and show what it is. We have on page 21 of the Budget speech this statement:—

"The Advances to the Local Loans Fund constitute the biggest Exchequer asset. On 31st March last these were taken at £12,841,195, and in the figures which we have given for 1932 stood at £2,536,237. The former figure, however, includes the disputed item of £5,432,087 in respect of old Local Loans."

In other words, it contains the old British loans which are being paid back by the local authorities to this Government as revenue, and at the same time are being paid back by the farmers to the British by way of duties. These are the loans which are being paid twice. That is supposed to be one of the things for which the farmers ought to be thankful. Further on, the Minister, after first endeavouring to create the impression that they created an asset of £12,481,195 through local loans as against £2,536,237 in 1932, goes on to tell us that "the truly comparable figures for the advances are therefore for 1931-32, £9,071,902, and for 1935-36, £12,841,195—an increase of £3,769,293." Further on he tells us that, "leaving the disputed item out of account for the moment, the total sum advanced to the Local Loans Fund at the 31st March last amounted to £7,409,108, as compared with £2,879,237 at 31st March, 1932, showing an increase of £4,530,000," again creating the impression, because of the fact that he stated in the beginning that it was our biggest Exchequer asset, that there had been in this matter a national asset created to the extent of £4,530,000 beyond what they found when they came into office. As a matter of fact, that is not so.

The Minister for Finance refers to the British loans, which are not being paid by the present Government, but which are being duly collected by them from the local authorities, and duly paid by the farmers to the British Government as disputed moneys, but although they are disputed moneys, he takes them in as an asset. Let us regard them as that. But the Minister, after creating the impression that he has national assets to the extent of £4,530,000 beyond what he found, then informs us that a very large percentage of the housing loans has to be paid back by the Government. That is true. On page 29 he tells us:

"At the 31st March last the total amount which had been raised or provided for housing purposes in Saor-stát Eireann since 1st April, 1932, was £8,670,000. Towards this sum the Government has provided directly out of taxation free grants amounting to £1,370,000; and, as I have already shown, it has made itself wholly responsible for the loan charges on £4,000,000 of the balance."

Surely if the Government advance money and make themselves responsible for the loan charges to the extent of £4,000,000 on a sum of £7,000,000, they cannot regard the £4,000,000 as an asset. It is not an asset. If I lend money to Deputy Donnelly and I agree to repay some of it myself, to that extent it is not an asset of mine. It was not an asset, and not alone was it not an asset, but it became a liability of the Government, because they had to find the money and pay for it. It may be argued that, having found the money and paid for it, and having paid it into the Local Loans Fund, they were creating an asset by further borrowing powers. But at least to the extent to which the Minister says he is responsible for the repayment of £4,000,000, it is not an asset.

After telling us that, and after disposing of it, the Minister goes on to say that there are other matters for which the Government are responsible. On page 23, referring to the fact that the local authorities borrowed from lenders other than the Local Loans Fund, he said:

"The total amount so borrowed from March, 1932, to 31st March last, by local authorities from lenders other than the Local Loans Fund, was roughly £3,300,000. The capital liability of the State which arises in respect of its contribution to the charges on these loans, may be taken to be about £1,570,000."

That is a further liability of the State. Now we have, according to the Minister, a liability of £4,000,000; a liability of £1,570,000, and there is another liability amounting, I think, to £1,000,000 odd, to which he referred in some other place. I cannot find in the Budget statement where the Minister has related all that to the State indebtedness—he might have related portion of it. He admits that the State indebtedness has gone up by between £5,000,000 and £6,000,000. Only two years ago he told us that he had pulled it down by £5,000,000, so that now, apparently, it is £5,000,000 higher than when he came into office. If that is true, it has gone up by £10,000,000 within a very short period. That is not a very satisfactory state of affairs.

Let us examine the conditions under which we are endeavouring to carry on at present and endeavouring to finance the various matters arising. The indebtedness of local authorities has gone up by something like £6,000,000. The indebtedness of the State has gone up by £5,800,000, or according to the Minister for Finance himself, to take him at his own word, by over £10,000,000 in a few years. So according to the Minister for Finance, himself, if we are to take his word it has gone up by £10,000,000 in a few years because he says he pulled it down by £5,000,000. How much further are we going to go? How much further does Deputy Tom Kelly think we have to go to solve the slum problem? What will the State liabilities and the local authorities' liabilities be when we are through with the slum problems? It is all very well for the Minister for Industry and Commerce to say there is no relation between the distribution of wealth and the production of wealth. He will not get many to agree with him in that heresy, for heresy it is. The Minister told us that last night. He gave the House to understand that if you could find people with lots of money and tax them, and distributed that money to other people, you could keep on indefinitely and you need have no regard at all for production. Perhaps the Minister for Agriculture would agree with that. I read somewhere that he said, on one occasion, that eventually what this country will have to do is to produce less and to get better prices. It is about time the Fianna Fáil Party halted and considered where they are going. I think it is time the country was told where we are with regard to national finance. I am not satisfied with the statement in the Budget speech as to the true state of affairs in this country. I am as anxious to maintain the credit of the country as anybody else, and as everybody ought to be and must be.

There is no use in the Minister for Industry and Commerce telling us that the land is flowing with milk and honey. Deputy Kehoe appears, also, to be of that opinion. I do not know if he was one of the Deputies who talked here the other night—at any rate his colleague is—of the advisability of reducing by half the rents of agricultural labourers because they were not able to pay. That is an extraordinary commentary upon our prosperity.

That was not the reason.

Is it then that they are quite well able to pay and that Deputy O Briain does not want them to pay? The rent is a low rent in those cases, ranging from 1/- to 1/6 a week or an average of 1/1 a week. Surely that is not a high figure to ask labourers to pay. Nevertheless, the Fianna Fáil Party joined with all others in asking that the figure should be reduced by 50 per cent. Perhaps Deputy O Briain regards that as another part of the same theory which we had from Deputy Kehoe. As we are told the country is flourishing, and Fianna Fáil is providing for a daily and yearly increase in population, I would like to read an extract from the Connacht Tribune of last week, which is an extraordinary comment upon the prosperity which apparently is deluging Galway at the present moment. There was a meeting of the G.A.A. held in Galway City and the report of that meeting in the Connacht Tribune is headed, “Old Team Broken Up”—“Players Leaving Ireland.” Deputy Jordan could tell us about it. He was at the meeting, and if he were here, he could give us firsthand information. The reverend chairman, who, I think, is a supporter of the Fianna Fáil policy, said: “It was a great pity that clubs were being broken up”; and he said “they had received a letter from the Maree Club saying that they would have to withdraw from the championships as ten members of their team had gone to England. A great number of players were going over to England, and it was a great pity that a team with the record such as the Maree team had had to be broken up.” That does not seem to give any indication of the prosperity that Deputy Kehoe spoke of.

Is it a unique instance?

No, it is not unique; neither is poverty unique. It is not the first time that we have had poverty and not the first time that we have had artificially produced poverty.

Your friends, the British, began that.

Yes, and the only time there was any revival of financing this country was when our friends on the opposite side of the House went and made a pact with the British and were quite agreed that England should go on collecting the annuities from the farmers.

We did not borrow any ammunition from them.

No, but we have a Budget which has imposed £10,000,000 of taxation upon the country for the last three years. The Government has raised the price of every article which the farmer has to buy. There is no relief in favour of the farmer who is told by Fianna Fáil to pay £5,000,000 a year to the British Government.

The Minister for Finance boasted of the tax returns and compared the returns to-day with some years ago. One would imagine they are being collected on the same basis. Does he not know that there was a change in the valuation for taxation purposes last year? What about the change that increased house property taxation by 25 per cent? Was not that expected to bring in something? Let us be honest about it. The Minister for Finance also preened himself on the increase in stamp duty by £18,000. No wonder there was an increase. Local authorities, even in the British days, were free from stamp duty, but now they are all brought into the net and have to pay. No wonder stamp duty has gone up and that the return in connection with house property, with an increased valuation of 25 per cent., has gone up, yet the Minister preens himself and says the country is getting prosperous because of his tax returns. Deputy Kehoe and others say the country ought to be thankful. We are told this is a great Budget. But let us take up any of the items in the Budget. Let us take all the remissions together. How many of them are going to the main industry? Are any of them? No matter how hard-hit they are, they will have no great regard for the reduction of a ¼d. per lb. on sugar. We have not come to that stage yet, bad and all as we are. As for the other items, Deputy Dowdall mentioned last night that the farming community could not complain if bounties were dropped because the levy under the Slaughter of Cattle and Sheep Act was being dropped. I wonder how much of that particular levy will go to the farmers. Has anybody read to-day's papers and seen what the butchers are saying about it? They do not intend to pass it on to the farmers or to the consumers. Is there anything in this Budget that the country ought to be thankful for to Fianna Fáil, save in the manner in which the tenants of the old rack-renting landlords used to be grateful every time the landlord did not raise their rent? The rack-rent has gone up and it is going to stay there.

Two things emerge from the Budget. One is that the farmers can look forward to continuing to fight the economic war to save the faces of Fianna Fáil. That is one thing they must do. Another thing which the people must face year in and year out is the problem of unemployment. The Government has a very comprehensive scheme for dealing with unemployment. At least, it is high sounding. A sum of £2,500,000 has been provided. What is the greater part of that? The greater part of it represents moneys taken from other headings which were, in the main, going to labour, in any event. What is the Road Fund for if not for labour? What is the expenditure of the local councils for but labour? The Government plan has, however, altered. They are going to pay the small share this time and the local authorities must come in and foot the bill to a much larger extent than the Government will. I do not want to minimise the difficulties the Government has to meet with regard to unemployment. It is a problem. The present Government, when seeking power, did not say it was a problem. It was a matter to be solved in 12 months.

We did say it was a problem.

Deputy Lemass, as he then was, made the statement in this House that unemployment was a very small matter and could be ended in 12 months. What are the words of the Minister for Finance now?

"If we are to attack this problem earnestly and sincerely, we must take a long view of it, as something which is going to be with us year after year and which, year after year, has to be provided for out of the current resources of the community and the State."

There is not much sign in that of bringing back the exiles from America to work here. On the whole, I must say that the Budget is disappointing. It is a case of "as you were; we have taxed you and made you pay and we are going to continue to make you pay."

I was glad to hear my esteemed friend from Wexford giving his benediction to this Budget. I listened for about two hours a couple of days ago to the Minister reading out his harangue on the Budget. Few men in this country who had any respect for their audience would have the cheek to stand before them for two hours and read out a document so chock-full of misrepresentation and cajolery. In many places, he tried to make comparisons, but he shifted his ground and did not make relevant comparisons. We had the Minister for Industry and Commerce in his usual, blustering fashion talking about the change in the economic policy. He was followed, to a less extent, to-day by Deputy Kehoe, who spoke about changing from grass to tillage. I do not accept second place to anybody in this House in standing for a tillage policy, but the question of change in agricultural policy does not, in my judgment, come into the materials of this Budget. They are only put in as a smoke-screen by the Government to cover up what is concealed in the Budget. I shall give one classical example from the Budget speech of this year and last year to show how far we can rely on figures given us which we cannot easily verify. In the Budget speech of last year, there was an additional duty of a ¼d. per lb. imposed on sugar, to take effect immediately. That was estimated to give the Exchequer only £175,000. This year, there is to be a remission of ¼d. per lb. on sugar and the same Minister tells us that, though that remission will not take effect until 1st August, it will cost the Exchequer £170,000. Between now and the 1st August, all that will be made on the sugar tax of a ¼d. per lb. will be £5,000! When one reads a statement like that one is convinced that every statement of that nature must be examined with the materials at our disposal. Figures that cannot be really examined cannot be analysed. When opening his Budget statement the Minister said:

"Before dealing with the actual figures, I should perhaps remind you that last year it was estimated that our total revenue from all sources would amount to £29,386,000. On the other side of the account, after making the usual allowances, it was anticipated that expenditure at £29,376,000 would fall just within our revenue by £10,000. What was the actual out-turn? The revenue rose to £30,601,620 and would have exceeded even this figure by almost another £70,000 if in January last we had not remitted the coal duty. Against this we had issues from the Exchequer on account of the Central Fund and Supply Services amounting to £31,106,840. But these included payments in respect of property losses compensation, and on account of land plant and buildings for the new industrial alcohol factories, as well as for land for afforestation, and the repayment of the Dáil Eireann External Loan. All told, these amounted to £461,003; and as they are all proper to be met by borrowing, reduce the gross figure to £30,645,837. Against the actual revenue this leaves an apparent deficit of £44,217."

I should like to hear the Minister or any Deputy in the Government Party explaining how that £44,217 can be regarded as anything else but a deficit in the Budget of last year. The Minister attempted to explain it away in these words:

"The reduced figure of £30,645,837, in turn includes the sum of £2,273,000 which was actually paid out for export bounties and subsidies."

Why should it not? If we are going to pay bounties or subsidies, how can they be regarded as anything but current expenditure? Will the bounties you pay this year produce for you next year? Will the subsidies produce for you next year? The very essence of a bounty is to give relief for the time being, and the very essence of a subsidy is to give help for the time being. How could anyone regard these except as payments of a current nature? What sort of national finance will we have, and on what foundation will the structure of this State rest if, for expenditure that is essentially current, it is suggested to the House we should borrow? By manipulation of this kind the Minister creates a surplus. I do not believe there is another Minister for Finance in the world who would dare to put such a proposition before Parliament and ask to have it ratified. Deputy Kehoe said that the Budget was a grand one; that it could stand by itself. I should like to hear from some of his colleagues how that deficit of £44,217 can be shown to be anything else but a deficit, in face of the under-estimation of the product of the taxes imposed last year. The Minister stated later:

"Turning now to the individual heads of revenue, Income Tax and Surtax gave us £5,208,000 as compared with the Budget Estimate of £5,005,000, and a receipt of £4,868,000 for 1934-35."

In his Estimate from revenue-producing taxes and from various sources for the coming year, the Minister anticipates a little surplus over expenditure, and he has offered a relief of £1 16s. 0d. per annum to a man with three or four children who earns £9 a week. But the House should remember that last year, for revenue purposes, the valuation of property was increased by 25 per cent., while the year before the value of property, for income tax purposes, was increased between 16 and 17 per cent. Up to a few years ago there was always an allowance of 1/6th of the poor law valuation for the maintenance of house property. That was wiped out by the Minister two years ago and householders have now to pay on the full valuation instead of as hitherto on 5/6ths of the valuation. The Minister made the further discovery that the valuations were out of date, and he increased them for income tax purposes to 5/4ths. He increased them even on houses just valued. Having a few thousand pounds over in revenue he now offers back a sop of £50,000, whereas his estimate of last year, by increasing the revenue by the addition of 25 per cent. to the valuation, was £60,000. If the figures were mathematically correct, having regard to what the Minister offers this year, these people are losing and the Minister is getting £10,000 into the net.

We have had "hot air" and generalities talked about signs of returning prosperity. This is the Minister's statement:

"Further signs of the improvement in business and economic conditions generally will be found in the increased receipts from the Post Office and from Wireless Broadcasting and in the improvement which has been manifested in the collection of land annuities and local rates."

I wonder if that is true.

It is true.

The Deputy knows quite well that it is not true. I have offered to straighten out the matter for him.

What is that?

You know the difficulties confronting farmers. You know how many petitions and pitiful letters you are getting—that we are all getting. Why then does any Deputy say that the statement is correct?

We will always get them.

Always, of course, in politics.

I mean the letters.

Do not slide.

No, I am coming after you.

It is certainly most ingenious how the Minister handles the sugar question. He says:—

"The Excise duty on sugar, at £301,772, exceeded the Estimate by £1,772, and the preceding year's yield by £215,057. This represents, not a great gain, but a great loss to the Exchequer, for the Excise duty chargeable at the moment is only ½d. per lb., and must be compared with the 2¼d. per lb. levied as a Customs duty on foreign-manufactured sugar, which brought us in £653,063."

He compares an Excise duty of ½d. per lb. on home-produced sugar with a levy of 2¼d. on foreign-manufactured sugar, in an endeavour to delude the unthinking that this was the measure of help we were giving the home producer as compared with the foreign producer, when the fact of the matter is that, despite the experience, despite the investigations carried out by other countries somewhat similarly circumstanced to us and all the experience we had got that we could not produce sugar at anywhere near the foreign level in price—we rush forward to produce sugar at this high price. With only ½d. per lb. of an Excise duty, the article for the consumer was brought to the same price as that to which 2¼d. of a Customs duty would bring the foreign product. He goes on to say:

"For the greater part of 1931-32 Customs duty on foreign-manufactured sugar was charged at 1¾d. per lb., while the Excise duty, which, I should emphasise, is the duty which is chargeable on the Irish-made article, was ½d. per lb., just as it is now. But in 1931-32 91 per cent. of our total consumption, or 83,500 tons, was imported from abroad, as against only 32,479 tons last year. And duty at the rate of 1¾d. per lb. was collected on most of that 83,500 tons, bringing £1,331,012 into the Exchequer that year."

He endeavours to argue, by a wrong application of those figures, that people five or six years ago were charged more for sugar than they are to-day, which is not the case. He compares our position with the position in Northern Ireland, and says:

"We could bring our revenue from sugar up to that level quite easily, therefore, and in addition reduce the present retail price of the article by 1d. or 1¼d. per lb., if we were to do as is done across the Border—import all the sugar we consume. But are we prepared to throw the beet-fields back into pasture and to leave our sugar factories to the rats and moss?"

That hardly needs comment.

It is true enough, is it not?

Again he says:

"...because what happened with the tobacco happened also with petrol. The Customs duty on the commodity produced £1,179,991, against an estimate of £1,010,000, making with the Excise the highest yield ever recorded.

Surely the rule against a Deputy reading his speech should be enforced against a Deputy reading another Deputy's speech.

Surely the Minister is not bored by his own speech?

The Deputy is only reading extracts from the speech.

I am only reading the Minister's speech, and I hope he is not as bored by hearing it from me as I was when I had to listen to it from him.

I am afraid it is worse.

I shall quote a very interesting page of figures in the Minister's statement, and I hope he knows something about them. He stated:

"The burden of our direct Exchequer obligations at the 31st March, 1936, amounted to £55,356,678, and was constituted as follows..."

There is no need to go into all these figures. There is just one interesting item—Land Acts, 1923-33, for Costs Fund and State contribution to price, £14,605,000. That will be an interesting figure when we relate it to another more important figure later on. The Minister went on:

"In addition there are annuities under the Telegraph Acts, Public Offices Site (Dublin) Act, Railways (Ireland) Act, and Marine Works (Ireland) Act, to the capital value of £64,071, which are at present the subject of dispute with the British Government.

"Against this burden we may set balances amounting to £4,773,678 as follows: Exchequer Balance at Bank, £2,378,100; National Loans Sinking Funds unapplied, £22,478; Savings Certificates (Interest Charge Equalisation) Fund, £2,373,100, together with certain Exchequer advances and shareholdings which amount to £26,728,657, and comprise:—Unemployment Fund, £276,000; Shannon Electricity Fund, £5,983,130; Electricity Supply Board, £4,497,240..."

That is, the whole Shannon scheme outfit is valued by the Minister—the Minister who tried to make himself famous by calling it a white elephant— at over £10,000,000. Instead of being a white elephant to-day, has it that value simply because the Minister has crossed the floor and sits on the Government Benches instead of on the Opposition Benches? I think it is doubtful if the Shannon scheme and the Electricity Supply Board—a Board which has to charge what it is charging for its electricity—have a national value to the amount of £10,000,000. The Minister is aware that for three years that concern, plus the Minister for Industry and Commerce, prevented the Dublin Corporation from doing its duty to the citizens of Dublin by providing them with an adequate water supply. Why? Because these engineers could not agree whether it was more economical nationally to produce electricity by water power or by steam power. When the situation became too hot a couple of months ago, and the public bodies in the City and County of Dublin would not stand it any longer, they had to make up their minds. What has transpired from the whole thing? That electricity was being produced more cheaply at the Pigeon House than it is under the Shannon scheme, or than it can be produced by harnessing the Liffey.

Or by white elephants.

The Minister's white elephant, on which he has put a national value of £10,000,000 to-day. I hope Deputy Kelly will contradict that.

I am not going to contradict anybody.

We now come to another interesting item—Local Loans Fund, £12,841,195. How did that sum of money get in the Local Loans Fund? I will pass from it now, but I propose to deal with it later. The next item is £566,000 in connection with the purchase of creameries. Are they worth that to-day? I would like to hear the Minister on that, particularly on a political platform, because I would then remind him of what he said when he was in Opposition about the value of that national asset. Then there are advances to the Agricultural Credit Societies. If I do not mistake, a Bill was passed through the Oireachtas last year the object of which was to help those credit societies out, and to give the Government a chance of getting out. There is also a reference to the shares of the Industrial Credit Corporation and of the Agricultural Credit Corporation. I do not think that these bodies are doing a very brisk business, and I do not know what those shares might be worth commercially. The figure in the Minister's speech is £500,000.

Did the Deputy say that they were not doing a very brisk business?

The Deputy must not have been reading the Press.

What Press, the Irish Press?

Any Press.

I have no doubt but that the applications they receive are numerous. What I am concerned with, however, is the amount of sound advances made. What is the realisable value of the advances made by those two concerns? That is what counts in a national balance sheet. You could give out £1,000,000 but you might not get back £1,000 of it. I hope that the 500,000 shares in the sugar company are worth £500,000 now. The Minister, in the course of his Budget speech, said:

"It will thus be seen that while on the face of the figures we appear to have direct Exchequer obligations amounting to £55,356,678, we likewise have off-setting cash assets and sound advances to the value of £31,502,335, so that our actual net debt would appear to be £23,854,343. The figures, however, are subject to certain adjustments which I shall make later, and at this stage I merely give them provisionally... The published statements available show that at 31st March, 1932, comparable State liabilities amounted to £38,686,000, against which there were cash and other assets valued at £16,312,498, so that the actual uncovered net debt at 31st March, 1932, amounted to £22,373,502."

The Minister goes on to refer to local authorities who borrowed money directly on their own responsibility and, because the Government aids them in the repayment of their loans, he computes that as a national liability of the Exchequer and puts on it the figure of £1,570,000. That, with the other liabilities that I have quoted from the Minister's speech, leaves the total national liability at £55,927,000. The Minister in the course of his speech refers to the £12,841,000 for local loans as an asset. He explains that what went into the old Local Loans Fund had a capital value of £6,535,665, which would leave that fund standing to-day at £6,305,000. He is taking credit for the present value of all the outstanding loans advanced by the British, while not taking responsibility for the repayment of any of those moneys. He is quite well aware that the British are getting these loans repaid at the rate that was agreed on a few years ago, namely, £600,000 a year. He has not charged that as a liability. He has included the capital value in the capital assets in his estimate of the nation's assets and their present worth. He has put the assets at £31,502,000, but I suggest that to get a correct statement there should be deducted the capital value of the old British loans which are still being paid through the British levies or tariffs. If that were done, it would reduce our assets to £25,197,000. The annual relief payment, which is a Central Government charge, amounts to £2,450,000, as stated by the Minister, and this would bring our assets down to £22,247,000. Our liabilities, therefore, on the Minister's own figures would stand at £56,927,000, our assets at £22,747,000, leaving our net liabilities on the 31st March £34,180,000, which would be an increase of £17,868,000 over the net liabilities of this State on 31st March, 1932. The Minister buried his head, ostrich-like, in the sand, and said: "We will not pay those moneys to Britain"; he capitalises those payments and puts them down as to credit. Because he is not paying out for the service of those moneys it is not a national liability, but the Minister for External Affairs a couple of months ago came to a coal-cattle pact which agreed that levies would be made on goods going into Britain to pay out, among other sums, £600,000 a year for those local loans.

To go over the whole speech of the Minister seriatim would take as long as or longer than it took the Minister to make it. Quite obviously the Minister for Finance in any Parliament wants a considerable time to make a statement on the national position, and it would make a farce of Parliaments if every Deputy, even though theoretically entitled to do so, were to get up and keep the House as long as the Minister, of necessity, does. Therefore, a Chinn Comhairle, I will cut my remarks short, with a few references to the general position. It will be necessary, during the course of the Finance Bill and Resolutions, to deal with matters which the Minister and his colleagues are apparently endeavouring to hide from the country. It will be necessary perhaps, before it is too late, to bring home to them the danger of the existing economic situation. In an agricultural country, agriculture is the root of the whole economic tree. The condition of agriculture is reflected in every debate which takes place here in this House. Some people in this House have an idea that the question of agriculture is the concern of the farmers and the rural community only. It is the concern of Grafton Street and O'Connell Street as much as it is the concern of the plains of Kildare or the plains of Meath, because, if the land outside the City of Dublin and outside the towns throughout this country is not producing, Dublin will soon be in decay, and so will the other towns. The wholesale houses of Dublin depend on their business, and their employment is measured by the orders they get from the country. Those orders from the country are measured by the custom that the shopkeepers in country towns get, and the promptitude with which their customers pay their bills.

The members of the Dublin Corporation, who have close association with the administration of the city estate, know the cases that are put up to the City Estates Committee about the renewal of leases and the expenditure of capital sums when those leases have to be renewed. They know that every case is based upon this fact—that the wholesale trade in the country has gone down. Thousands of pounds are out: they cannot get them in, and they are up to the limit with the banks. In the case of many big business houses we have had to renew their leases on a yearly basis, to come up for review in the following year. I should say that if we have given a lease for a number of years the law provided that there should be a capital sum spent, and those people made the case that they had not the capital sum to spend, and that they were only keeping their doors open in order to keep their staff employed; there were no dividends. In many cases, instead of renewing the leases, we granted tenancies from year to year, simply and solely because there was no money there to carry out the capital expenditure that a lease would require. Why is that the position in the city? It is the reaction of the depression of agriculture in the country. Agriculture is not a question only for the man who is working the spade or following the plough. In a country where it is overwhelmingly the largest industry, where it is far greater than all other industries put together, it is of vital concern to every citizen. When I emphasise its importance it is not because I happen to be a farmer. If I were to consult my own interests I have other interests bigger than farming interests, and I might not bother about it, but no interest is of any use in a country where 80 per cent. of the productive capacity is agricultural, if that 80 per cent. is economically unsound.

And is it not unsound? In this Budget speech have not the realities of the whole economic position been obscured? Have not the Minister and his colleagues—I am sure they were all in this with him—deliberately attempted to obscure and keep from the country the real situation? If they have not, why did they take credit for a capital sum of £6,000,000 odd, whereas agriculture is taxed to pay that £6,000,000 to the British and to pay to the Local Loans Fund as well? I shall be glad to hear the Minister come down to brass tacks, if I may borrow the language used by his colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, last night. Let him come down to brass tacks and tell us how he got £12,000,000 into the Local Loans Fund? He never raised it by loan or by revenue since he became Minister. It was simply done by an Order that in regard to all moneys that have been advanced to local authorities from local loans, the interest and sinking fund be paid back into the Local Loans Fund. That includes the £6,000,000 odd that had been advanced to the British, and which with other moneys was the subject of an agreement made a few years ago, an agreement which—and I am not saying whether they are right or wrong—has been repudiated by the present Government. The British have not repudiated it. They are making agriculture pay for it and the Government here have the benefit of it. Is it any wonder, when the Government have the benefit of it, to the tune of £5,000,000 a year, that they pocket it?

No, if that is all the Deputy wants us to say.

If the Deputy said no more than that, it would be a speech in itself to the Minister, and it is more than the Minister can refute. Will the Minister deny that the money in dispute between us and the British, in connection with local loans, amounting to £6,000,000 odd capitalised, on his own figures, is not included in this statement of his? Is it not included in this sum of £12,841,195? Do the local authorities not pay to the Local Loans Fund, which, I think, is controlled by the Minister himself, for the service of that entire loan and has the agricultural industry not to pay England for the service of that loan? Has agriculture not to pay for it twice while the Minister for Finance pockets it once and pays nobody for it? Was that the situation here in 1931-32? Is that not hidden taxation to the extent of £5,000,000 a year upon one section of the community?

The Minister boasted in his speech that annuities and rates have been paid better than previously. The annuities have, but the rates have not, and nowhere can that be seen better than in the very constituency which the Minister represents, County Dublin, and amongst no farmers more than the farmers who supported the Minister and stood on his platform. Who are the conspirators not to pay rates and annuities? Are they those who supported the Minister in County Dublin and brought out their cars to bring in his voters?

No, they would not do it. I do not say they are conspiring not to pay. I know their position well. They cannot pay, but the Minister tells us they are paying better than they were. I know it, because this week I sat for three and a half hours in the chair at the Dublin County Council listening to the wail of those people.

Listening?

It is not a matter for the Minister to smile at. I should like to see the Minister taking up his position at the Sun-dial in Swords and swinging round with that broad smile on his countenance.

I shall have to put an arrow on for the benefit of the Deputy.

The torch-lighters who came there on one occasion for the Minister would not be there on that occasion. That is the condition of agriculture, and how can it be otherwise when it has this double impost on it? If the policy of the Government were as successful as was anticipated, and if, after four years' trial, according to the Minister for Industry and Commerce, they have got half-way through with it, why should there be such need for the expenditure of £2,500,000 to create public employment? I am afraid the Minister was a bit hazy as to the functions of the Special Committee in this connection, and certainly it is easy to satisfy him if, as he gave us to understand, that committee has been a gigantic success under the able guidance of the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Hugo Flinn. I wonder what it has done up to date? Is it not the intention of that committee to undertake works of a novel character, to undertake works that might or might not be useful, but that will be of such a nature that no local authority could afford to undertake them? I wonder when, by evolving an economic outlook like that, we will arrive at the time when labour in the ordinary way will become absorbed into the economic life of the country? Is unemployment not fast becoming a profession? And are the unemployed not becoming bereft of any hope of getting any ordinary employment? When it is not the dole or home assistance, it is a case of hoping against hope that some kind of a grant will be made to give them some sort of work for a period. Is not that hope which the workers of this country had years ago of getting some kind of employment from which they would obtain a living and be able to settle down as ordinary, normal citizens and to improve their lot if they could, disappearing from them, and especially since the present Government came into power?

If you want proof, here it is in this proposition to put up £2,500,000. I do not object to the provision of this £2,500,000, but I object to the conditions that have produced it. The need is there. Is that all you can show after five years of govern ment?

We will show you something more in a minute.

We will get all kinds of tosh—national beet and national peat and all this kind of thing—but it will come from men who never did a day's work in a bog or in a beet field. The Minister for Finance tried to purloin my slogan in County Dublin and he paraded the county with the slogan of "Speed the Plough". Fancy the Minister for Finance speeding a plough! That kind of dope goes down for a while, but it will not cod the people all the time.

I thought you believed in that?

Certainly, and I do that, which is more than the Deputy or any other Deputy over there does.

Well, I withdraw that as far as Deputy Jordan is concerned. Now, let us analyse this sum of £2,500,000. Of that amount, £1,675,000 will be put up by the Government, but when we come to look at it, we find that they will raid the Road Fund for £100,000, that they will raid ordinary relief works that have been going on heretofore for £500,000, that they will raid the cattle fund for £140,000, and that they will raid, I think, unemployment assistance for about another £500,000. So that it is really only a juggle of figures—the same old fish-shop under a different sign.

There is a certain Deputy who has changed his sign now and then.

Will the Minister explain?

Better not. Let us have the Budget.

But the local authorities have got to put up £825,000—the local authorities that cannot pay their way already. Where are they going to get it? What is the Minister doing with the money he is collecting that hitherto went to the British and that is not now going to the British, although the British are collecting it from the local authorities or the ratepayers of local authorities? Now, to cure the unemployment created by the Minister's policy, the Minister wants the local authorities to put up more money when they are not able to pay the rates that are already struck. Of course, when silver-tongued orators on the Government Benches get up, they begin to talk about the time when this country maintained 8,000,000 people in frugal comfort—the time when this land was tilled, and which they want back again. They get up and tell us that they chased the rancher and the bullock out of the country and that now they want to produce beet to feed our people and so on.

Well, that is good dope. I think that is fine.

Yes, it is good dope, but I want to answer the Deputy and spike the gun he is already training there for me, ready to jump up on the first opportunity.

Tell me what I am going to say.

We all know what you are going to say, because you have said it before, often.

A Deputy

With greater success.

Now, I think that before antics of that kind are indulged in here, we should consider what chance there is of a tillage policy producing our own food and making our own manufactured goods here in this country, if that main industry is to continue to be robbed, without any recompense or any compensation, by the British Government. That is what it amounts to, since it was agreed in the coal-cattle pact to pay them £4 5s. per head on every beast that goes over. That should finish with all the land annuities. It should finish with all the old local loans. It should finish with the pensions, instead of having it dished up to us here in the Minister's speech. We are paying it. We have paid it to the full, and more than the full, and we are told over there: "No surrender." Those who do not agree with the Government are told that they stand for the ranching policy. The Minister for Industry and Commerce was on it last night. Everybody who has studied economics at all, as applied to this country, knows quite well the limitations of both agriculture and grazing. I shall not go deeply into that now, but the present development of agriculture and of the cattle trade under the coal-cattle pact is about the worst form, nationally, of a cattle trade that was ever developed in this country. It is developing the store trade and limiting the beef trade. Stores are dearer now than beef; but the £5,000,000 a year have to be paid by the stores as well as by the beef, and that tax which normally, and under the previous Government, was being met by moneys collected by the previous Government and not brought into their Central Fund at all, was paid to the British.

If they included it in their statement, they would have to include it on both sides of the account, and as they collected it for a definite purpose and must get it from definite people, it never came into the ordinary national accounts at all. It was paid to certain people outside this country; but those people are still getting it in their own way since the Minister and the present Government are making the people who paid it before pay it to them again, and yet the Minister includes it in his balance sheet, but he does not include the liability. Now, supposing that something happens whereby we have to pay those moneys, where are we? Even the Minister referred to that in his statement. I wonder where all our artificial prosperity, industrially, will stand then? I wonder where all the factories that have been established, and the establishment of which is contemplated, will stand then? I wonder where will Deputy Donnelly's new factory be—the factory that is now in a state of suspended animation over a certain midland town? I wonder what will happen if the white feather and the white flag have to be shown even to a greater extent than the white flag had to be shown in the coal-cattle pact? If there is a complete surrender, what will happen the Deputy's factory that is in suspended animation? I think it would be a bad day, and a very bad day, for the Deputy if such a thing should happen on the eve of an election. Certainly, I would rather that the Deputy should be there than I.

In conclusion, Sir, I cannot see what future there can be for the country while these double payments by certain sections of the community have to be made at a time when the national industry of the country is on the verge of bankruptcy. The Minister will think that that is a hackneyed phrase, but it is true, and signs of that condition are growing every day. When we have an annual Budget statement by the Minister at which there should be no concealment, no camouflage, no attempt at side-tracking the real issues, but where comparisons have to be made, let them be made on bases that are comparable. The Minister has not done that. The whole 60 pages of his Budget statement seem to me to be deliberately designed to obscure from the general public the real financial position and stability of the country. He starts off by trying to show that he has £1,000,000 of a surplus instead of £44,000 of a deficit. He makes many estimates in the course of his speech of what a tax remitted will cost the Exchequer, but it is always much greater than the extent a similar tax imposed will benefit the Exchequer. However, there will be other opportunities to deal with the salient points of the Budget in a more specialised form, and we will take full advantage of those opportunities.

By some freak of fortune, it usually occurs that Deputy Belton and I happen to speak one after the other on many subjects here. While he was delivering his speech— quite a long speech, detailed in form, although he proclaimed at the start that he was not going to go very much into detail—he made a fairly good analysis of the present Budget, but one could not help thinking that future events had something to do—were a source of inspiration—with some of the remarks the Deputy made, more particularly when he referred to the Sun-dial at Swords. I can visualise Deputy Belton being out there some afternoon in the very near future addressing the multitude. I can also visualise him, if he succeeds in getting on the Fine Gael panel as one of their candidates, figuring more or less in the role of the Prodigal Son. I would be glad if certain rumours became a reality. I would be glad if Deputy Costello, Deputy Cosgrave or Deputy Mulcahy would remember that I made one special plea, that Deputy Belton be taken back to the official Opposition.

Why would you be glad?

In the first place, the fatted calf would be killed and the Deputy might then stop talking about the killing of calves.

There are enough calves being killed.

I have no doubt Deputies recollect the story in the Bible of the fatted calf being killed on the return of the Prodigal Son and the father putting a golden chain around his neck.

There is not a word in the Budget about a fatted calf or a golden chain.

I was merely making a slight analogy. I can visualise the golden chain being transferred from his mentor and mascot and being put around Deputy Belton's neck, and the Deputy being placed in charge of the City of Dublin as Lord Mayor. That is the inspiration that was behind Deputy Belton's speech this afternoon.

I will not let Deputy Donnelly inside the walls of the city if that happens.

It was patently an election speech. There is one thing I would be sorry for. I would not like to see Deputy Belton figuring in the English Press the way that Deputy Dillon figures in it to-day. Did you see the headings in a cross-Channel paper: "Free State living from day to day.""Fianna Fáil accused of paying no regard to future solvency"? There is a paragraph saying: "This statement was made last night in the Dáil by Mr. J. Dillon, one of the leaders of the Opposition and a son of the late Mr. John Dillon, Leader of the Irish Parliamentary Party"—that is in case he might not be known. I would not like to see in an English paper Deputy Belton figuring like that. It is regrettable that responsible Deputies should make speeches such as that—that the Free State Government is living from hand-to-mouth, from day to day. It is featured in this paper that "The Fianna Fáil Government and Party were deliberately living from day to day without regard for the future solvency of the country. If this was continued the country would pay bitterly in the long run." That is a fine thing, a grand thing from a Front Bench member of the Opposition.

I wonder could that possibly occur in any other Parliament in the world? I heard in the olden days about certain members who got a very apt name from the late Mr. Birrell. He referred to a certain section who used to go from Ulster and who spent their time in the House of Commons usually declaiming against their own country. He called them—perhaps I had better not say it, but yet it is a hackneyed expression—the carrion crows from the North, Ulster Unionists who were always deliberately defaming the country that elected them.

Present company excepted.

Even so. References were made in the course of this debate to annuities and rates. This statement was issued by the Government Information Bureau: "The amount of annuities collected from 1st January to 31st December, 1935, was £2,282,008, an increase of £696,510 on the previous year." That does not look as if we were becoming insolvent. If Deputy Belton goes to the town in the Midlands that he mentioned he will find the rates are being reduced in Laoighis County to the extent of 2/9 in the pound. That is a tillage county, one of the best tillage counties in all Ireland. The people there have taken advantage of the policy of the Government. They have made good, and the rates there are 2/9 less than they have been for quite a number of years.

When Deputy Belton talks about the silver-tongued orators of Fianna Fáil going through the country and waving the national flag, let him recollect that these are not altogether our arguments; they are the arguments of a greater and a bigger man than any of the rank and file in this place; they are the arguments of Arthur Griffith. "Arthur Griffith was not merely a great patriot: he was a great man, and for the rest of the history of this country his name and his work will be a lesson and an inspiration to those who come after him." That was written by President Cosgrave two days after Arthur Griffith died. Griffith's words should be remembered by all of us. "A hundred years ago we fed ourselves on our own wheat, and exported thousands of tons to feed the people in other countries. Now we import 344 days' supply of wheat to feed ourselves—in the whole country we only raise enough wheat each year to provide us with 21 days' supply." That is the policy that Fianna Fáil is following; Fianna Fáil is following in the footsteps of Griffith. He went on to say: "It is by buying Irish manufactures and by manufacturing those goods for which there is a domestic market that the population can be retained and this country can be prevented from degenerating into a cross between a grazing ranch and a workhouse." He wrote that in 1917.

That is just where Fianna Fáil are driving us to.

I do not think so.

Tell us something about the Local Loans money and never mind that stuff.

I can come to that later on. Deputy Belton said he was speaking mainly for agriculture.

I did not say anything of the kind.

The Deputy said that agriculture affected Grafton Street as much as it affected the Plains of Boyle. We all agree with that. We spent many days here discussing the Local Government Estimate, a subject which did not deal with agriculture. Deputy Tom Kelly made a speech on that occasion which was not only a lesson but an instruction to every Deputy. He referred to the state of affairs that exists in the slums of Dublin. One would think, listening to Deputy Belton, that it was only last year or the year before that slums and unemployment came into existence.

Fianna Fáil were to be the doctors of unemployment.

I will now quote from the Official Report, volume 24, column 2206. Deputy Cassidy concluded his speech——

What has that to do with me?

If the Deputy interrupts much on these lines, the Party will not take him back again.

If I was like my friend here, I could be anywhere I liked with the shilling.

Here is what the Deputy said on the 5th of July, 1928: "Before this House adjourns, I would appeal to Deputies to endeavour to bring pressure to bear on the Government to induce them to face up to this unemployment situation and to provide funds which will go towards the relief of the unemployed." That is the conclusion of the speech of Deputy Cassidy. We had that speech followed by an appeal from Mr. A. Byrne.

Did the Deputy say Sir A. Byrne?

No, I said Mr. A. Byrne, your friend.

And your friend, too.

On the same day, the 5th of July, 1928, Mr. A Byrne said:—

"No words of mine could possibly describe the appalling conditions in the tenements of Dublin to-day. I would ask Deputies to take a stroll through Gloucester Street, Gardiner Street, Grenville Street, Henrietta Street and such streets, which are within five minutes' walk from Nelson Pillar. They will find people in the tenements there hungry. I do not wish to exaggerate the conditions that obtain in the tenements of Dublin to-day, but I take this opportunity of asking the Minister if he will take the word of inspectors of the St. Vincent de Paul Society or of the Roomkeepers' Society. Both these societies are heavily in debt as a result of the administration of relief."

Deputy Byrne went on to give a lot of examples. Now Deputy Belton says "aye." Gardiner Street is in Deputy Belton's constituency.

And when Deputy T. Kelly and I and quite a number of others were doing what we could here to try to get money as quickly as possible for the eradication of these slums, I do not think it is the right thing that Deputy Belton should come in and use the sarcastic "aye" as a comment on an honourable appeal.

Deputy Donnelly has mentioned a certain matter. The Deputy knows I was not and could not be here at the time, owing to very serious illness in my family. He told me last night he was going to say this, but I tell him now that he should not have done so.

I say you have no right to make sarcastic remarks or comments on speeches here.

Deputy Donnelly should address the Chair. We have had too much of this thing of Deputies addressing each other across the Chamber. The remarks should be addressed to the Chair.

I apologise. Deputy Byrne went on further in the same speech and said: "Here is a case in which an unfortunate woman with six children writes that they are hungry and can nothing be done for them. I sent the letter to the authorities and I said: `I will be grateful for your kind consideration of the case of Mrs. A.' The secretary of the Union wrote: `Will the relieving officer please report on this.' I got back my letter in answer to the appeal of the woman with the six hungry children and it was marked: `This is a case of unemployment'." That was the state of affairs in this city eight years ago. I defy Deputy Belton or anybody in this House at the present moment to present one case equal to that in the City of Dublin. We have gone a long way to remedy that state of affairs and Deputy Belton knows it. But for trying to do that we were scoffed at and laughed at, and we had Deputy Dillon standing up and saying that he would not be found dead with our economic policy. How does that fit in now with the Fine Gael agricultural policy? The first item, I think, in their programme is to encourage the growth of wheat and the second is to continue the growth of beet. How do these things fit in with the criticism that comes from the other side of the House? If these two schemes are failures, why adopt them? If Deputy Belton had been at the Ard-Fheis would he subscribe to them?

Then why the criticism?

Not from me.

Oh, yes. Deputy Belton cannot get away with it like that. I regard this as a good Budget. What is more, I do not see any leakage in it, not the slightest. It is a good Budget and it will be put into effect. I think, instead of wrangling with each other and fighting over things in the Budget, we in this House ought to be a little proud to-day. After all, we are only poor Irishmen in the eyes of people in other countries, but I would prefer to be in this House to-day than to be in certain other places under the conditions that obtain in other countries. Whenever Deputy Belton refers to the economic war—if he does refer to it again—I would say this: that he ought to be proud. If he would look at it from this standpoint—I am making an appeal to him as man to man— he ought to be proud to be on this side of the economic war and proud of the leaders who are leading us and proud of the tradition that will always be behind this Dáil as compared with other places. I will leave the matter at that. Deputies will understand.

On the subject of unemployment I made an appeal many times in this House to the Opposition. I did not know at the time I made the appeal for help and constructive criticism that I was quoting an appeal made by the then Minister for Finance on the 5th of July, 1928, in this House. On that occasion, towards the conclusion of his speech, Senator Blythe made this appeal: "This is a matter that perhaps Deputies could co-operate in better than they have done heretofore. We hear criticism and we hear appeals and we hear instances quoted of heartbreaking hardship, but it would be better if we had some more attention given by all the Deputies in the House to the thinking out of constructive schemes." That was the appeal made by Senator Blythe eight years ago. I myself made a similar appeal to the Opposition. If I were over there, naturally enough I could get up and criticise as much as anyone.

It is a kind of satisfaction to criticise, but when it comes to a serious matter like unemployment, when it comes to a question that there are people here of the type that was mentioned by Deputy Byrne eight years ago, then surely we should all forget these debating points and get down at once to brass tacks. Deputies should give us their ideas as to how to help the Government in dealing with this problem of unemployment. That would be more to the point than all this infernal wrangling about petty matters. Deputy Belton talks about the economic situation. The general economic situation in the country is good. The Deputy talks about manufactures and about agriculture. I want to point out to the House that manufactures and agriculture are interwoven. Unless the workers in our Irish towns have money to pay for purchases from the farmers, and unless the farmers have money to buy what the workers are producing in the towns, one or other or both must suffer. To make agriculture a proper success and to put it where it ought to be as the basic industry of the country; to make it solvent, to give the farmers a decent chance in their own country and the first place in our markets, it is absolutely essential that industries should be established in the towns. When I went through the country at the last general election I made that statement at several meetings. I make it now again. I will make it again to-morrow, and I will go with any member of the Opposition or with any member of the Labour Party to any town in the Free State and tell the people there that agriculture cannot be a success unless and until the workers in the towns have money from industrial sources with which to purchase the native products of the Irish farmers.

And vice versa.

And vice versa. They are interwoven and the two must go together hand-in-hand. That was one of the things I said to my constituents before I was elected, and I will say the same thing again to-morrow. I will go with any Deputy in this House and make the same speech again. We have tried to do that. Take the Budget from one end to the other, either collectively or in detail. I believe it is a good Budget. I am not saying that there is not one little item I do not like, and that is about the amusement taxes. It is hardly worth talking about at the moment. I had thought, however, that the Minister should have gone a bit heavier on the picture houses and got a little more cash from them, because there is an extraordinary number of them and they take in a large amount of money. I understand from a very well-known authority that in the City of Dublin 288,000 people visit the picture houses every week. That is the average attendance. I put that as a very conservative estimate. That represents 288,000 shillings or £14,000 a week.

Not a penny of that comes back. I would have been in favour of putting a heavier tax on them. I am not a kill-joy or a spoil sport, but I think it is a terrible amount to go out of the city for that sort of thing. I believe that if people would only apply the necessary common sense, and if it could be brought home to them that there is a sum of £14,000 per week leaving the city and going away for films and all the rest, something would be done—the Minister for Finance, perhaps, may have it in his head, and I hope he has—to put a kind of brake on that.

Dealing with the general position again, just this morning, when I was thinking of making a few remarks in this debate, this thought came into my head. £30,000,000 for 26 counties is the Budget. There will be £12,000,000 more for another part of this country. That is £42,000,000 altogether in taxation on a population of 4,250,000. Then people ask why there is poverty and depression and why it is so hard to live. The engineers of the scheme who put this island in that position— £12,000,000 in taxation in Ulster and £30,000,000 here—must be chuckling and laughing to themselves while we are engaged here, it does not matter what crops up, whether a Budget or a Local Government Estimate, making points against one another. They may be only petty trifling details, but they will still enjoy the fun. There is one fundamental fact and that is this: whether it is the economic war or anything else, until we can show these people that they cannot pull the wool over our eyes and until we do that effectively they will have nothing but laughs at us.

We will want to get another Budget to do that.

I wish that to-morrow we could go out to the country and say to the people of Ireland, and through them to the people of England, that the Opposition had at last made up their minds on this question of unanimity. I thought I saw it coming when Deputy Cosgrave one evening moved a motion that we reopen negotiations for a more comprehensive settlement of the whole thing politically, economically or otherwise. When I heard that motion being moved in the House I thought I saw a ray of hope that there might be unanimity later on. But, again, I was disillusioned, because after a few sentences of his speech I knew it was only Parliamentary and political tactics. It should not be such in my opinion. It does not matter how many Budgets we introduce, there is the one big fundamental national question that will always affect the country, whether it comes from a Budget or any other legislation, which I would ask Deputies of the Opposition to take cognisance of.

I thought I knew a great deal, but I was more surprised than anybody the other evening at the speech delivered by Deputy McGilligan. I bow my head to no one in admiration of his ability, and I have always said it. But when I quoted from this leaflet, "Ireland's Economic Salvation," by Arthur Griffith, and was met with his reply, I could hardly believe my own ears, I could hardly think I was listening to words coming from a responsible Deputy. He said that the late Arthur Griffith informed the late Kevin O'Higgins at some period afterwards that the most of this was propagandist stuff. I never believed that, and I do not believe it yet. If a responsible leader of the Opposition, like Deputy McGilligan, tries in this year, 1936, to put that complexion on the writings of Arthur Griffith, economic, political, national, our whole movement from the year it was started by Arthur Griffith must be a fraud and a sham. That is the only complexion that can be put upon it from the remarks made by Deputy McGilligan, and I was surprised and sorry to hear them— surprised especially at them coming from him. Supposing you went across to London or Manchester and you were met by some Britisher who asked, "Do you believe in this?" What would anyone think or say if you said it was only propaganda at the time? I do not believe he said anything of the sort; I believe he stood by the teaching.

I remember distinctly when the Treaty came, before this institution was established, the argument that was used—that it gave us the right and the power for the first time to run Ireland on Irish-Ireland lines. That is what we are trying to do. That is what the Budget is meant for. That is what our legislation is aimed at. That is what every Government Department is trying to do, as far as I know, at the present time.

One word more in conclusion. We will not be here for ever. For the older type of Deputies, the men whose hair is getting white like my own, this may be their last session here. I am not such a fool as to think that I can go on for ever like Tennyson's Brook. I also know this, and people can sense it all right—that there are younger people, and I suppose better people, who have more pep and punch than we have, and they are knocking at the door already. This is my idea. Even if this be our last session, let us do nothing to hamper or impede the march of this country. There are young men who are going to take advantage of this institution and come to this Assembly some day or other to do something for this country. Let us neither by Budgets nor legislation, from the Opposition Benches, from the Government Benches, or from the Labour Benches, do anything that will stop these young men in the way they want to go. The further they go, the better it will be for the country. They are coming in here. Anybody who thinks they are not is living in a fool's paradise. They are coming in here some day or other. It may be five years or it may be ten years. I can visualise a different complexion on this institution in ten years' time. For that reason, I suggest that it would not be wise for ourselves or anybody else to do anything that might tie the hands of the people who may come after us.

It was rather a pity that Deputy Donnelly, before he sat down, did not give some indication of the type of people who are coming into this House, who are going to take the places that we will vacate, and for whose coming we ought to be now preparing. He did not say whether, in his view, this Budget was an apt preparation for that wonderful day and for those wonderful people. When referring to the publication of certain criticisms of these Budget proposals that were made in this House yesterday by Deputy Dillon, Deputy Donnelly asked the question: Could that possibly happen in any other country in the world? The answer to that, of course, is no. It could not happen in any other country in the world. Most other countries in the world, at the moment, are greatly afflicted with political and economic difficulties. But none of them, except this country, is afflicted with Fianna Fáil, and that is the reason that it could not happen in any other country, because Fianna Fáil only exists in this country. Deputy Donnelly considers that we ought to be really proud when discussing the wonderful proposals in this Budget. What have we to be proud of? Approaching the proposals in this Budget as I approach them from the point of view of the consideration given to them by the ordinary citizen—the person who used to be known as the man in the street, who must be fed-up with all the financial jargon about capital liabilities, deadweight debt, receipts and expenditure, and national expenditure so constantly displayed by financiers in connection with the finance produced by them—I ask what does this Budget bring to the ordinary citizen? What relief does it give? How does it affect the ordinary citizen and the country in general? Approached in this way, there is very little comfort to be got from the Budget and very much to cause disquiet.

Deputy Donnelly and others spoke of the signs of prosperity and of increasing prosperity in this country. Deputy Brennan described the Budget as an "as-you-were" Budget. Deputy Kehoe gave it as his opinion that the best that could be said about the Budget was that there was no sensation in it. That was another way of saying that it was an "as-you-were" Budget. What is the position of the country? We have Estimates and receipts of expenditure here this year showing, by a simple sum of subtraction, an increase since Fianna Fáil came into power of £6,750,000. On top of that there is additional imposition of taxation by former tariffs and taxation put on and kept on by the Budget. It used to be that once a year the taxpayer would look forward with apprehension or anticipation to this much-abused Budget day. After that day he knew for the next 12 months the best or the worst, but taxpayers to-day have not even that little bit of comfort, because the Executive Council, by decrees and orders from day to day and every day, bring in 50 Budgets during the year and perhaps more. The net of taxation has been spread wider than ever before in the history of this country, even under an alien Government.

This is an "as-you-were" Budget. It is a Budget such as that described by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance last year, leaving things as they were when the Budget became law and its proposals were put in force. It is an "as-you-were" Budget so far as the working-man is concerned, and the Budget of last year was so described by the Parliamentary Secretary in referring to a comment made by Deputy Anthony on the Budget and the working classes. This is what the Parliamentary Secretary said: "Deputy Anthony says these are taxes that fall upon the working classes. Why should they not fall upon the working classes?" That was last year's Budget, which put taxation upon the working classes and in respect of which the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance boasted when he asked: "Why should not these taxes fall upon the working classes?" These taxes fall upon the working classes again this year. Because of this "as-you-were" Budget they still fall upon them and press upon them.

The Parliamentary Secretary, in another part of his speech on that occasion, said: "What I like in this Budget is that it brings everybody up against the facts." Last year's Budget brought everybody up against the facts, and this year's Budget keeps them still up against the facts, and the facts are that between direct taxation put upon the people by the Budget and indirect taxation there is a sum of over £10,000,000 increase in taxation since the Fianna Fáil Party came into power.

That is the first part of this "as you were" Budget proclaiming the prosperity of this country. The Minister, in his statement yesterday, boasted of the increase in the consumption of tobacco and beer and the increase in entertainments duty due to the greater number of people going to entertainments and the increase in motor cars. I do not pause for any time to direct attention to the fact that that sort of false prosperity may, for a time, hide from the people what is going on and what is coming to them, and what Deputy Dillon yesterday warned the people would come to them, if this policy is continued. It is no consolation to the unemployed to know that there is more beer drunk and more motor cars being used. It is no consolation to those deprived of unemployment benefit, as a result of the policy of the Government, and who yesterday were seeking relief from the Dublin Board of Health, to know these things. What consolation is it to those people to hear from Deputy Donnelly and Deputy Kehoe and from the Minister for Finance that this country is prospering and is getting more and more prosperous?

Yesterday at a meeting of the Dublin Board of Assistance, as reported in last evening's Evening Herald, the chairman remarked that hundreds of people in Dublin were refused unemployment assistance on the ground that they were not genuinely seeking work. “The relief superintendents,” he said, “reported that for the week ending Saturday last 7,057 cases were relieved at a cost of £3,153 11s. 6d., being an increase of 28 cases and £21 6s. 8d. in cash, over the preceding week; and an increase of 510 cases and £156 5s. 0d. in cash as compared with the corresponding week last year.” Is that evidence of increase in prosperity on the day after the Budget was introduced? On the day after the Budget we find there is an increase of 510 cases over the corresponding week of last year of persons seeking relief from the Dublin Board of Assistance, having been deprived of unemployment benefit. Is it any relief to those people, who are unemployed, and who have been unemployed, to know that the Government set up a committee two years ago, and to know that the terms of reference of that committee were, as I read them, designed rather to protect the Exchequer than to protect the interests of the unemployed?

The terms of reference—I am speaking from memory—were to the effect that this committee were to consider how best savings in the expenditure on unemployment assistance and public works could be effected. As a political Party, we may have some pleasure in rubbing the noses of the politicians of the Fianna Fáil Party regarding the sort of rubbish they spread in 1932 and 1933. The President of the Executive Council then said they had a cure for unemployment staring them in the face. The present Minister for Industry said he was going to bring back the people in shoals from America, because he would not have enough people here to do the work that Fianna Fáil would provide when they came into office. We take pleasure in casting up that sort of thing at the politicians of the Fianna Fáil Party, not because we get political advantage from it, but because we hope that that spirit of political racketeering has been ended by experience of Fianna Fáil as a Government during the past four years.

It is no comfort to the unemployed who voted for the present Government to be looking, year after year, for that cure for unemployment which members of the present Government said was staring them in the face a few years ago. We are told in this year's Budget that the country is prosperous, that the cost of living is coming down. Yet, those who had a panacea for unemployment, who knew how to cure it, have not merely to provide £2,500,000 to meet the present situation but, after four years of their economic policy, they regard that evil as endemic. Unemployment, we are told in the Minister's speech, we shall always have with us. It is no comfort to the unemployed to know that the country is prospering, that more beer is being drunk and that more motor cars are being bought, when they are told that the evil of unemployment, which was to be so easily cured, is endemic.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce stood up here last night, with his usual brazenness, and made a speech which I would not dignify by the description "cross-roads speech." It was nothing more than a street-corner speech. In the course of his observations he contended that the cost-of-living had not increased. It will be comforting to those people who are living on small salaries and small wages to learn that the Minister for Industry and Commerce is able to produce a book here to prove that the cost of living has fallen in this country by four points in the last couple of years. But though that may be comforting, it does not get away from the hard fact that on every single item of the necessaries of life tax is being paid to the present Government. Tax is being paid on tea, sugar, bread, butter, clothing and practically everything that people must use in their daily lives. That is the work of this patriot Government. The housewife who has to manage the finances and the budget of the household knows how impossible it has been to live within the usual means of the family during the last few years owing to the increase in the cost of living caused by the economic policy of the Government. No juggling with the figures and no Budget speech will get over that fact. No brazenness on the part of a slippery politician, like the Minister for Industry and Commerce, will convince the ordinary housewife that the cost of living has not soared and soared appreciably in the last few years.

Even the few remissions promised by this Budget will bring no comfort to the people. The farthing tax put on sugar last year is being taken off this year, but the farthing tax upon sugar imposed by the present Government when they took office still remains. It has become abundantly clear that that reduction in the duty on sugar is not going to be passed on to the consumer. This morning we read in the paper that the other remission— the remission of the levy under the Slaughter of Cattle and Sheep Act—is not going to be passed on to the consumer. And this is the Budget which we, as Irishmen, are to be proud of, according to Deputy Donnelly. I have been given figures which would prove conclusively that the figures given last night by the Minister for Industry and Commerce regarding the cost of living were inaccurate. I have no belief whatever in figures. The fact that the Minister for Industry and Commerce is able to produce a book to prove that more people than ever are saving money, and that the cost of living is coming down—that, coupled with the fact that I am able to produce figures to prove that the cost of living has gone up considerably and to controvert the assertion, as it was controverted last night by Deputy Cosgrave in his broadcast speech, that more savings are taking place than ever before, leaves me completely cold so far as figures are concerned. You can do anything with figures.

Looking at the ordinary points where this Budget hits the ordinary, plain citizen, there is no hope and nothing to be proud of. A short time ago a man casually stopped a member of this Party in the street. He did not know he was a politician. He asked him for a match, and he told him that he had, in the previous week, been put out of employment as the result of a recently-imposed tariff by the Minister for Industry and Commerce. He said that, when the present Government came into power, business was regarded as bad and that it was hoped it would be better. Now he had lost his job as a result of the tariffs, although that job was secure before the present Government came into office. Security is what the worker is looking for. Under the Cosgrave régime the workers' jobs were secure, and security and stability are what the worker is looking for. I commend that slogan to the Fianna Fáil Government. The whole policy of the Government is calculated to produce insecurity and instability in every branch of the people's life, although security and stability is what every section of the people is seeking.

Deputy Donnelly asked us to co-operate in the solution of the unemployment problem. We would gladly do so, irrespective of Party considerations. I do not think that there is any Deputy who does not feel the heartbreak of being unable to assist people who come to him genuinely looking for work. We should gladly co-operate, but you have to get at the root cause of the trouble first. The Deputy by his speech to-night did nothing to add to security and stability when he talked about these young, these super-patriots knocking at the door and waiting to take the place of the present Deputies. We have had four years of government by the Fianna Fáil Party, and the country does not yet know the political philosophy of that Party. They do not know, according to the Fianna Fáil Government or the Fianna Fáil Party, what is the form of Government under which this country should live permanently. Deputy Donnelly has spoken eloquently, but somewhat ambiguously, about the great problem that awaits solution. I presume he was referring to the problem of partition. The foremost plank of this Party is to end partition. You will never end partition until you get security, and until the Party opposite makes up its mind whether it wants a republic, or whatever it wants, and sticks to that, and not say, as Deputy Donnelly would say: We have a Government here for four years calling themselves, in brackets on their notepaper, a Republican Party, but they gave a pledge to the people at the last two elections that they would not change the political form under which this nation is living without another general election. Should they not say, now that another general election is within sight, what they intend the political future of this country to be? Deputy Donnelly does not say that his Party is standing for a republic or any other form of government. The only thing, if we are to believe what he says, is that his Party is going to go out and be defeated by those people who are knocking at the doors of Leinster House.

There are many points I should like to deal with in the Budget, but I do not want to emulate the example of my friend, Deputy Belton, by occupying the time of the House at considerable length. There is, however, one matter that I wish to refer to that has not been dealt with. The present Government have no use for the income-tax payer except in so far as he can be regarded as a milch cow to be milked dry. Speaking generally, the income-tax payer, according to the view of the political bosses of the Fianna Fáil Party, votes against Fianna Fáil. Therefore, that class is not to be nursed from the point of view of potential vote catching, and we have had since the present Government came in, one long ramp after those burdened by income-tax, super-tax and excess profits duty. In this Budget the Revenue Commissioners have been again approached to find some new screw to put upon that already racked section of the community. I should like, before I say anything more, to pay the highest tribute that lies in my power to the efficiency and integrity of the Revenue Commissioners and the officials in that Department. There is in my view no more efficient body of civil servants than those in the Revenue Department. They are doing a job of a very difficult and technical character. They have had great training and experience and have become experts in that job. Who have they as their opponents? The ordinary taxpayer, who nearly faints when he sees income-tax forms coming to the house by the morning post; a man who is a child in the hands of these expert officials. The proposal in the present Budget is to put the screw again on these people; to give powers to the Revenue Commissioners to go back to 1922, and to exercise another drive against these unfortunate income-tax payers.

The Minister waxed sarcastic at the expense of that section and dilated on them in a verbose fashion. He spoke of the absurd restriction of six years on the Revenue Commissioners' powers. The Minister might not think it so absurd if he had to pay income-tax, or if any of his colleagues were paying income-tax. They are not harassed by demands from the Revenue Commissioners, and can look with complete equanimity upon the case of a son, whose father died years ago, being asked under these proposals to give an account of his father's earnings in 1922, all the books having been destroyed and the records gone. That son framed his life, his livelihood, and his career on the assumption that he had so much money and that, at least, as far as he was concerned, when he dealt honestly with the income-tax authorities that was his only responsibility.

The Minister said that what he called "a much more serious matter was brought to his attention." That serious matter was that under the present law the Revenue Commissioners cannot recover tax from a person who succeeds for six years in escaping assessment on his true income unless they are in a position to prove fraud or wilful neglect. That was the serious matter referred to in the Budget speech but it represents only £50,000. I might say in passing that it is clear to my reasoning that was put in, because the Minister wanted to give something which would appear in his Budget to be a relief. He said it would look well if he gave increased relief in respect of children. It will look well. People will think they are going to get a lot but they will not know that they are only going to get a remission of £1 14s. The Minister asked the Revenue Commissioners if they could think of anything else. They had already thought of the one-sixth remission on the valuation in respect of repairs to property. They had already thought of that extraordinary figure, five-fourths, which was put on in the Finance Act of last year. They were asked to have another think, and being efficient they had another think, and produced the proposal embodied in the present Budget. Will it be any source of pride to Deputy Donnelly, or to anyone else, or be any comfort to the man getting £1 14s. a year as a result of this Budget, to know that his neighbour is going to be harassed by a State demand, and to be subjected to a species of blackmail, in order that the Minister may gain some sort of kudos or appear to gain something from the Budget?

Let us look on the proposal on the merits, leaving aside all other considerations. I ask the House to look at this matter on principle and entirely free from prejudice. If it is looked on in that way I have no doubt that all Parties in this House will unite in demanding that this particular proposal be dropped. The Minister said it was a serious matter that the Revenue Commissioners could not go back for more than six years unless they were in a position to prove fraud or wilful neglect. They have ample power, if they can prove fraud or wilful neglect, to go back any distance. As the Finance Acts of 1925 stand the Revenue Commissioners can only go back six years, but in case of fraud or wilful neglect they can go back as long as they like. Wilful neglect, in the mind of the Revenue Commissioners, has an entirely different significance to what it means in the mind of the ordinary citizen. Any breach of their code, any mistake even, is such a serious and wilful sin against the Revenue Commissioners that it constitutes wilful neglect. Let that pass. They have the power. No other citizen owed a debt has the power to go back for an unlimited period, even where there is fraud. If I am done out of my property by any person, through fraud, I cannot recover from him after the lapse of a statutory period, even where there is fraud. I should have by the exercise of due diligence discovered that fraud. We had operating here since 1922—for the last 14 years —the most diligent and efficient officials in the State, and if there are any frauds hanging around they ought to have been discovered. If they have not been discovered the perpetrators of the frauds are entitled to get away with them. The proposal at the moment is in ordinary cases—not in cases of fraud or wilful neglect—to allow the Revenue Commissioners to reopen assessments already made, and to go back in every case, even where assessments were made generally and bona fide, and rip up these assessments since 1922.

It has been said that it is only the big people that will be got at. I presume Deputy Donnelly is under the illusion that that is what is going to happen. I wish to disillusion him or anybody else who may be under that impression. The big people will be the first brought in, and the Revenue Commissioners will search the recesses of every pocket of these big people, but the time will come when these pockets will be dried up, and then the small people will be got at. Then the clerk, the small-shopkeeper and everybody else will be subjected to this imposition. Anybody can be got at from 1922, the small man as well as the big man. The general principle in the case of an ordinary debt, if it is allowed to run for six years, is that the creditor cannot recover it. That is not law or custom, but it has become established as law in the interest of debtors. It is a principle that has been established in the public interest, and I do submit to this House that that principle which was established in the case of debtors and creditors in the public interest, should apply still more in the public interest in the case of debts due to the State. Stale demands are banned in the public interest. Why should not the State, which has an elaborate machinery available for the collection of debts, be subject to the same principle in reference to stale demands as applies between the ordinary debtor and creditor? If it does not weary the House unduly I should like to read very shortly the underlying principles of what are known as the Statutes of Limitations. I quote from a very great judge, a Lord Chancellor:

"All Statutes of Limitations have for their object the prevention of the rearing up—

a very expressive phrase—we can visualise the claims of the Revenue Commissioners rearing up against the taxpayers in the course of the next year or two—

"All Statutes of Limitations have for their object the prevention of the rearing up of claims at great distances of time when evidences are lost and in all well regulated countries the quieting of possession is held an important point of policy."

Another great judge said:

"The public have a great interest in having a known limit fixed by law to litigation for the quiet of the community, and that there may be a certain fixed period after which the possessor may know that his title and right cannot be called in question. It is better that a negligent owner, who has omitted to assert his right within the prescribed period, should lose his right than that an opening should be given to interminable litigation, exposing the parties to be harassed by stale demands after the witnesses of the facts are dead and the evidences of the title lost. The individual hardship will, upon the whole, be less by withholding from one who has slept upon his right and never yet possessed it, than to take away from the other what he has long been allowed to consider as his own, and on the faith of which the place in life, habits and expenses of himself and his family may have been unalterably fixed and established."

Every word of the principles contained in that statement are applicable to the proposal here. Income-tax payers are going to be harassed by stale demands at a time when their place in life and the habits and expenses of themselves and their families have been unalterably fixed. People whose fathers died in 1922, when account books and back records dealing with the incomes of that time have probably been done away with, are going to be asked to tell what the incomes of the fathers were in 1922. They cannot do it. They are going to be assessed on a fictitious figure. They are going to be harassed and frightened into settling the claim, even if they can find evidence, and if they have the grit to fight and win in the courts. The principle at the back of this proposal is symptomatic of Fianna Fáil policy as a whole. Somewhere or other hidden away at the back of every proposal brought in by the Fianna Fáil Party—and it is perhaps more hidden in this case than in others—you will find intimidation. This is an intimidatory proposal. It will mean that everybody from this time onwards must keep certified records of his business or of his profession.

Further, there is no reciprocity about this proposal. The Revenue authorities can go back to 1922 in every case. They can go back to the beginning of income-tax in any case where fraud or wilful neglect is alleged, but the person taxed can only go back for three years in his claim for allowances. We had a case, a reported case incidentally, of a person who was entitled in equity and in all justice to have an allowance against the claim of the income-tax authorities for a period of more than three years, and the income-tax people, very properly and very legally, pointed out that they had no power to allow that claimant to go back more than three years even if they wished to do so, although it was admitted that these allowances should have operated in justice and in fair play for more than three years. At that time the Revenue could get six years' tax and collar all the reliefs to which the taxpayer should have been entitled for any period more than three years back. If this proposal is forced on the country, then at least there should be some reciprocity about it. If the Revenue can go back for 14 years, then the taxpayer who has made a mistake should be allowed to go back a similar period.

Arising out of that feature, I should like to call the attention of the Minister to another hardship that will result from this proposal, because it has resulted, in my own experience, in very considerable hardship in relation to the excess profits duty. Assessments will be raised all over the place, with no basis of fact whatever, but merely as try-outs, try-ons, or whatever you like to call them. It will then be the duty of the income-tax payer to disprove the assessment put upon him out of the imagination of the inspector of taxes. He would be able to do so in a very large number of cases, but in a number of cases he will go to his advisers, as they have come to me, and say: "I can disprove this claim, but it is going to cost me a lot of money even if I do win. I should like to go to the Revenue Commissioners and say: `What will you take to stop the thing and let me out of it, although I do not owe anything?' " That is one result. In any case it is going to mean that taxpayers will have to employ accountants, solicitors, and possibly barristers. It is going to cost money, and even if they win it will go on to the Special Commissioners, and then on appeal to the Circuit Court judge, and a very considerable amount of costs will have been incurred and cannot be recovered from the Revenue. I say that in the forthcoming Finance Bill it is the duty of the Minister to bring in a proposal to the House to enable the Circuit Court judge to give costs in such cases to the taxpayer. I had a case myself in the courts in the last few weeks, and a more unsustainable case, I think, I never came across. It arose out of an assessment on a farmer. This particular farmer was 80 years of age. I would not let his son settle the case. The Special Revenue Commissioners, in due course, confirmed the assessment without deciding the question, and there was an appeal to the Circuit judge. I was employed during the course of that case to a considerable extent; a solicitor was employed, and an accountant. On the morning of the hearing before the Circuit judge we got a letter from the inspector of taxes saying that he would consent to the discharge of the assessment. His bluff was called. He waited until the last minute. It was very proper that he should. He is an exceedingly efficient inspector, doing his job, as he is bound to do it under the Government, efficiently and well on behalf of the Revenue. The result was that that taxpayer was put to enormous expense, a penny of which he cannot recover. I say that is a gross and shocking injustice, and I submit that all sections of the House should call upon the Government to remedy it.

There is another matter that I want to call attention to arising out of this. When I called attention to it before, I was told that that was not the appropriate occasion to do so. This is the appropriate occasion. It is proposed in this Budget to give relief to the heads of families who have children. I understand that it is the contention of the Revenue Commissioners that there are, in certain cases, no appeals from their decision to the Circuit judge in reference to reliefs of one kind or another, and particularly in reference to certain kinds of reliefs. That should be remedied. There should be the right of appeal in every case from the Special Commissioners to the Circuit judge, and I propose to put down an amendment to the Finance Bill to secure that that will be done. I hope that when I do so I will receive support from Deputy Donnelly and commonsense members of his Party, if there are any other such than he.

The last item that I want to raise arises out of these reliefs for children. This is a case which was brought to my attention some months ago by one of my constituents. Relief is given from tax to the father of children who are attending at school or at the University. If a man has a son over 17 years of age attending the University, and at the same time he is apprenticed to a profession—to be an architect or a solicitor or any other profession— because that boy, while attending the University, spends part of his time in an office as an apprentice—it is a thing that apprentices have the habit of not doing—the Revenue Commissioners take up the attitude that he is not in whole-time education at the University and refuse relief. Now, if that is the law I suggest to the Minister that it is about time it was stopped, and that it ought to be changed. I do not know if many people have the habit that I have of looking at the Independent, and sometimes at the Irish Times on a Saturday morning.

But never the Irish Press.

No, under no circumstances.

That is the mistake that the Deputy makes.

I see in these newspapers very attractive advertisements for houses. I say to myself: I would like to own one of these very attractive but very expensive-looking houses; but then I say the upkeep of it would be too much. The cost of living in it is beyond my means. Now, that is the impression that this Budget has created in my mind. We have had an attractive house presented to us, after the manner of an auctioneer, by the Minister for Finance, a very expensive structure and, according to himself, wonderful value for the money, but it is too expensive to keep up, and in my opinion it is getting far too expensive for the ordinary citizen to live in.

Deputy Costello has just made a very long speech. Those of us who sit on this side will not agree with many of the things he said. At the same time, I think that some of the things he referred to could be examined, as they were offered in what one may call a fairly reasonable frame of mind, and should, to a certain extent at least, get support from this side with a view to having them examined. I would remind the Deputy that when some of us sat on his side of the House we also took advantage of Budget debates to put forward our point of view with regard to the Revenue Commissioners. The Deputy quoted a lot of law, and spoke of the difficulties that arise in the case of the ordinary citizen when he comes in contact with the Revenue Commissioners who, as the Deputy well knows, are in a sense a law unto themselves.

They are above the law.

They are.

I thought they were bound by the Finance Acts.

They are, but evidently they are above the law in many things, and were a law unto themselves long before this Government came into power. I agree that the Revenue Commissioners have very considerable powers. I would say that they have ample powers under the existing Finance Acts without giving them very much more if it is found to be unnecessary. At the same time, I do not think that Deputies on any side of the House would care to express themselves in a manner that would lead anyone to believe that they were prepared to stand over tax evaders. As far as I can gather, the intention is to give the Revenue Commissioners power, not to deal with the ordinary taxpayer but rather with the person who is evading the payment of his taxes. It is hard to expect us to believe that what Deputy Costello has stated is likely to happen to the whole community. It has been expressly stated by the Minister that the alteration in the law that he desires is for the purpose of dealing with those who are evading the payment of their taxes.

I listened to the speeches made from the opposite side by Deputy Dillon, Deputy Costello and some other members of their Party. They did not say that this was a bad Budget, and they did not say that it was a good Budget. They tried, however, to prove that the increase in taxation generally is putting an increased burden on the community, and that the community is unable to bear that because of the unemployment that exists. I want to examine that frame of mind and to satisfy myself that I understand them correctly. They took Fianna Fáil to task because all the unemployed in the country have not been put into employment, but they forgot the phrase used by the Minister in his Budget speech that the unemployed will be always with us.

If that phrase is to be taken as a statement with consideration behind it, then that situation is going to exist always; but the Opposition should remember that when they were the Government there was unemployment, and, according to Deputy Morrissey, there was considerable unemployment. I am prepared to accept the figures which he gave. But Deputy Morrissey did not have the hardihood to say that it was the policy of the Cumann na nGaedheal Government to provide maintenance for those unemployed, or to take responsibility for trying to provide employment for them. There is that difference between the gentlemen over there and the members of this Government. I am not going to argue the point as to whether there is more unemployment now than there was before, as to whether the unemployed were all registered before, or whether they are all registered now, but I will say that whether we have a large amount of unemployed persons or a small amount the Government has definitely taken responsibility for providing work as far as they can for those unemployed. If it fails in finding employment for those who are able and willing to work, it will at least maintain them. There is there a big difference of philosophy if you like, or of outlook anyway.

Deputy Dillon, of course, said that we have an increased number of unemployed while we have also an increased number of people emigrating from the country. When Deputy Dillon was making that statement I asked him how he accounted for the fact that we had an increase in the population of the country. If more people are now leaving our shores than left before, where did the extra people come from? Of course, that is just an illustration of the frame of mind that is attacking this Budget. I say it is a very good Budget. Within the last few days I have met very prominent supporters of Fine Gael, who are courageous enough to say: "It is a good Budget; it is a sound Budget, and the country is secure." When the next election does come they will find that what I say is correct. Only to-day I met in Dublin prominent supporters of the Fine Gael Party who had enough courage to say: "The country is more prosperous. The country is far better off. There is more hope, and there is more stability than we have ever had." If the Fine Gael Party wanted to speak the truth, if they wanted to shed the mantle of "Fine Gaelism," if the Front Bench members would forget for a moment that their allegiance is to their Party and not to the country, they would have to admit that this is the best Budget this country has had since a Government was set up in this country.

The Deputy must have read the Irish Press this morning.

I read the Irish Press this morning. I read it every morning. I cannot say I read the other papers every morning.

That is the trouble.

Probably we both suffer from lack of reading the other's point of view often enough. A lot has been said about the state of the country, and about the terribly sad plight into which the country has fallen—especially the farmers. I should like to ask any member of the Fine Gael Party who has not yet spoken to answer one question. I should like him to tell the House why it was necessary, under their administration, to set up the Agricultural Credit Corporation. If there really existed the prosperity which they say existed in their time, if the farmers were so well-off, if the unemployed were more happy being unemployed and not provided for than they are now being employed and being provided for, I want to know why it was necessary to set up that institution under their administration. I should like some member to answer that question, but I do not think anybody will attempt to answer it because the answer is obvious. Nevertheless, perhaps Deputy O'Neill, if he has not yet spoken, will take a chance at telling us why it was necessary to set up the Agricultural Credit Corporation under the last Administration.

There is no doubt that the Government is collecting more money than the previous Government collected at any time, but it is also correct to say that it is spending more. You could not spend more if you were not collecting it, unless you were building up a big deficit. I want to say that it is easier to collect money now than it was under their administration because the people are now making money, and it is now becoming possible to collect it more easily from people who are making it more easily than it was made under the last administration. Under their administration, income-tax particularly was a declining item. There were certain bargains— some of which we do not know much about yet—between this country and the British revenue authorities in regard to double income-tax collection, and so on. Large sums were brought in from arrears of income-tax which had been due to the British Government when they were here. We have got to the stage now where we can safely say that our taxes are mainly taxes from our own people, accruing during a period of years for which we are responsible.

It is all very well talking about the poor people who cannot bear this burden. When I heard some of the Deputies over there bemoaning the situation I was reminded of a case which was brought to my notice. A man was asked what his views would be if he were asked to pay 4½d. for a 4d. loaf of bread. His answer was that if he had the means to pay 4½d. he would not mind paying 4½d., but, if he had not the means, asking him to pay 4d. was just as bad as asking him to pay 4½d. The position to-day is that there is a distinct improvement in the conditions of all our people. The Government has tackled its problems of administration in a very courageous way. and the Minister for Finance is to be congratulated on this Budget. If the members over there were to speak what they feel in their hearts they would definitely get up and say: "He deserves to be applauded for the successful Budget he has introduced." When they go home this week-end I would ask them to go out amongst their immediate supporters in their own constituencies, and they will find that they will not get much sympathy from their own supporters for blowing all the steam they have been blowing off in here and elsewhere.

There is no doubt about it that certain reliefs which have not been given will have to be given at some time. I express the hope that the Minister will give certain reliefs in the next Budget, without having to increase taxation any more than it is at present. I hope he will at least give some consideration to the concluding remarks of Deputy Costello with regard to amendments to the Finance Act which he wishes to bring in, in order to see if there is any danger of the things happening which Deputy Costello says will happen. Deputy Costello might have said before he sat down that the Revenue Commissioners should no longer be styled as the "Revenue Commissioners." To the public they should be styled generally as "the big, bad wolf."

I think, Sir, I might join with the last speaker in his concluding remark. Deputy Briscoe has asked that the Revenue Commissioners should be treated as "the big, bad wolf." I think that is a rather mild way of describing the inquisitorial powers which are to be given to them by the Minister under this new Act of his. The Minister, I am sure, is aware that none of us would like at any time to excuse anybody for deliberately defrauding the Exchequer, but this thing can be pursued too far, and has in the past actually been pursued too far. Families have been broken up; men have been sent into mental homes and into premature graves, owing to the inquisitorial activities which I complain of. I think I will leave the matter at that point, and I am sure that the Minister—if he does intend to pursue this further —will see that it is done at all events in a humane spirit, and that some of the atmosphere in which it has been done hitherto will be absent.

There was raised also by Deputy Briscoe a matter which was referred to by Deputy Dowdall yesterday, to the effect that there is no increase in the cost of living for the simple reason that every penny raised in taxation is spent in the country. I cannot see the exact force of that argument, because, if you pursue that logically, it means that the more you tax the people, the more money they will have to spend, and, therefore, the more prosperous they will be. I cannot see the reasoning of that. If the Minister, instead of presenting us with a Budget for £32,000,000, as he does this year, presented us next year with a Budget of £64,000,000, Deputy Dowdall would be able to prove that the country is twice as prosperous in 1937 as it was in 1936.

We on this side are being twitted for not referring to this Budget as being either good or bad. We have been told that we have not praised it as a good Budget or found fault with it as a bad Budget. The terms good and bad are entirely relative, but there is one term which might be applied to this Budget, the name which I should like to christen it, and I think it is the name by which it will be recorded in history, and that is "The Farthing Budget," because, when everything is said and done, the most outstanding fact in it is the relief of ¼d. in the lb. of sugar which the Minister has given to sugar consumers. This has been placarded all over the place as a wonderful relief, but what it actually amounts to is that the average household will save 10/- per annum in the cost of sugar; so that in referring to this Budget as "The Farthing Budget," I think I am appraising it at its proper value so far as the taxpayer is concerned.

The Minister opened his statement with a reference to some of the sad aspects taken on by the critics of his Budget, and then he proceeded to fill himself with a sort of universal joy at the good tidings he had to give us about the buoyancy of revenue last year, and how it had come up to £30,601,620. He proceeded to tell us how it was arrived at and he said that in income-tax there is an increase of £34,000. That increase, of course, was arrived at by the very iniquitous tax that was put upon households last year, in the creation of that very ingenious method of assessing income-tax on valuation of five-fourths. I do not know the exact amount of money that came in from that source, but the Minister tries to offset that this year by giving a relief of £10 additional for each child, and he tells us that this is going to bring comfort and solace and relief to newly-married people. If you balance one of these against the other, if you take the extra cost of the assessment on five-fourths of the valuation of houses, and put it against the relief of the additional £10 for each child, I think the iniquity of the five-fourths valuation more than counterbalances any advantage that accrues from the other relief in taxation.

Stamps, he tells us, have suffered, to some extent, through the Sweepstakes, but the ordinary commercial increase in stamp duty amounted to £18,000. That was arrived at, of course, by the Order that was made here assessing stamp duty on the documents attaching to public authorities, which means now that every rate receipt, every paying order and negotiable document issued by public bodies shall carry a 2d. revenue stamp. That, of course, falls on the local ratepayer and comes as a relief to the Exchequer. Motor duties, we are told, are up, and this increase in motor duties and the increase in the revenue from the petrol tax are the special things acclaimed by the Minister as pointing to a more prosperous condition of affairs and indicating that the people are going in for more luxurious living. Last year there was an increase in some places. I will not say it was an increase in motor cars, because there certainly has not been, so far as I can see, any increase in the number of private motor cars on the road. On the contrary, I can notice a big attempt at economy by motor users, because many persons are discarding their high-power cars and going in for low-power cars, which, of course, I need scarcely remark, is very much to the benefit of a very important industry in the City of Cork.

There has, of course, been an increase in road goods traffic which would account for the increase in the revenue from the petrol tax, and which might also make for an increase in the amount derived from the taxation of these vehicles. The addition of motor-buses and the putting of certain merchandise traffic on the roads and taking it off the railways might account for the increase, but I cannot see that there is any increase whatever in the number of motor vehicles actually in the country. Looking over a few years' figures as to motors, I find that with regard to private motor cars we imported, in 1931, 7,333, and in 1934, adding those manufactured in the country to those imported, the number was 4,715. Referring to commercial vehicles, in 1931 we imported 1,322, and in 1934, adding those imported and those manufactured at home, the total was 906. I cannot see that there is any possibility of increase in the number of motor cars; neither can I see that the Minister can have any joy to himself that people are living more luxuriously, because I do not think motor traffic in the country is increasing.

There was a reference by the Minister to the fact that there has been an increase in the revenue from beer and spirits, and he also added mineral waters. He says that that increased consumption is a matter to be deplored. I think that is a very unhappy word for the Minister to use in connection with the increase in the consumption of alcoholic drinks in this country. I do not think there is anything immoral whatever in the consumption of beer in this country any more than there is in any other country, but I think there is one matter to be deplored in connection with it. If the Minister would look back over a period and refer to the revenue from spirits for some years past, he would see that there has been a wonderful decrease in the consumption of these drinks and also a terrible decrease in the amount that accrued to the revenue from Excise and Customs duties upon them. If he goes over a period of ten years he will see that there has been a decrease of £5,000,000, and I think that is a matter very much to be deplored. I think it is a matter very much more to be deplored that the number of persons employed in that industry fell from 6,247 in 1926 to 5,219 in 1934. That is a decline of 1,028 in eight years, and I think it is something that ought to be very much deplored by the Minister. I think that in deploring the increased consumption perhaps he seems to think that everybody who has anything to do with drink is a drunkard or a person engaged in an immoral occupation.

Would the Deputy be good enough to quote my exact words?

The Minister used the words "no matter how much we might deplore it." I hope I am not misquoting the Minister, but I think the spirit of his remarks was that he deplored the consumption of drink in the country.

I think the Deputy is misquoting me slightly.

Well, I am sorry if I am. The Irish Press also refers to the same matter and says: “while, from the temperance point of view, the increase in the consumption of alcoholic liquors may be deplored”—am I right?

Yes, I agree that it was there.

That evidence almost sounded on the Minister's side.

I just wanted to show that there has been a wonderful decrease in the convictions for drunkenness. There has been a fall in convictions for drunkenness from 6,951 in 1924 to 3,289 in 1935. So that the country is very sober and the people very self-respecting and keeping their self-control. I should like to direct the Minister's attention to another aspect of this matter, and that is in connection with the barley trade. There was a time when 40,000 acres of barley were consumed in this country in the manufacture of spirits and beer, and that acreage has fallen by one-half. I suggest that the Minister should direct the attention of his colleague, the Minister for Agriculture, to that fact in connection with his tillage scheme, because I think it goes to show that all things in connection with this drink question are not the iniquitous things we are led sometimes to believe. Perhaps the Minister did not see the full significance of using the word "deplore" in this connection, but when I saw it in the Irish Press—and I read it every day; not like some of our friends—I thought it was very deliberate.

Now, in connection with this big national scheme for the relief of unemployment, I think that we on this side of the House can congratulate the Minister on his efforts in this direction, and if they are going to be successful, I think we shall be prepared to wish him all the good luck in the world. At the same time, I do not think that he can take very much credit out of his Budget with regard to the amount of money which the Government itself is putting into this scheme. That is all I have to say.

I do not intend to say much on this motion. It is, however, an important fact that revenue has increased and that more money is being spent on items other than the necessaries of life. Notwithstanding all this, we have to sit here and listen to the doleful lamentations of the Deputies opposite telling us of the terrible conditions that exist in the country. They still persist in proclaiming that bankruptcy is at our door. Well, nobody can deny the fact that relief, at least to some extent, is given to the taxpayer in this Budget, while at the same time provision for social services has been increased. It is rather hard, for farmer Deputies at least, to sit here and listen to the statements of the Opposition telling us about the terrible condition of affairs, as far as the agricultural community is concerned especially, when we know full well, as also do the people down the country know full well, that the only concern of the gentlemen opposite for that section of the community is to make as much political capital as they possibly can out of any difficulties that that section of the community might have to contend with.

Deputy O'Sullivan, I think, in the course of his remarks yesterday, said that in his opinion, judging from the statements of Ministers here, he thought that they must be completely out of touch with conditions in the country. I do not at all agree with him on that. Our Ministers, I believe, are closely in touch with conditions in the country. Now, we of the rank and file are surely in close touch with conditions in the country, and I, for one, claim that there is a vast improvement in conditions generally in the country —a vast improvement. That improvement should be clearly indicated to everybody by the increase in revenue, by the increase in the amount of money in circulation generally, by the improvement in the annuity payments, and by the improvement in the collection of rates up and down the country.

Deputy Morrissey, from Tipperary, in the course of his remarks yesterday, repeated the statement that agricultural workers in Tipperary were being paid at the rate of 5/- per week with board. Now I wish to take this opportunity of refuting that statement. It is not true, and I think it is very unbecoming of that Deputy to come here and cast such a reflection upon the county that sent him here. It has also been stated that there is less employment in the rural districts. Well, I do not know so much about that. I have no figures either to confirm that statement or to disprove it, but I know this much: that certain employees, in my county at least, were disemployed by the supporters of the Party opposite simply because they refused to attire themselves in blue shirts or to allow themselves to be led like sheep into the polling booths to support the Party opposite. That is the only reason I could give for the decrease in the employment of agricultural workers.

Many of the Deputies opposite, in the course of their remarks, laid stress on the conditions that obtained here in 1931, and they more or less laid down that as a standard. Well, I think that nobody on this side of the House or, I think, very few down the country, would be satisfied with the 1931 standard. Surely, it was not because the people were satisfied with the standard of living that obtained then, and the conditions that existed then, that they decided just at that time to dispense once and for ever with the Government that were responsible for that condition of affairs. Deputies opposite made great play about the unemployment problem and the attempts made by the Government to solve it. They contended that if an honest endeavour were made, they are prepared to assist the Government in every way they can. I believe it is a problem which will not and cannot be easily solved, but nobody can deny that great strides have been made during the reign of this Government to relieve that situation and very little has been done by the gentlemen opposite to assist us.

Deputy Morrissey referred to a statement which he attributed to the Minister for Industry and Commerce —that he said some years ago that workers would have to be brought home from foreign countries to cope with the amount of employment available here. While not claiming that the unemployment problem has been solved, I certainly wish to claim that a good deal has been done for the relief of unemployment, and workers are being employed who were on the unemployed list a few years ago. It is also a fact, and I wonder will Deputy Morrissey deny it, that in the county from which we both happen to come there are workers who were in the bread lines in foreign cities a few years ago back home and in employment. I do not wish to detain the House much longer. I think the situation is bad enough without trying to make it worse and, while not claiming that things are as good as we would like to have them, I believe that, in fairness, credit should be given for what has been done. It will not improve matters to paint a picture such as the Opposition have been painting for the past couple of days.

I do not wish to detain the House, but I cannot let this occasion pass without saying that, after four years of Fianna Fáil administration, the Minister for Finance should be in a position to give us something better than he has given in the Budget. A farthing off the price of a pound of sugar is the principal item. That will be a profound disappointment to farmers and labourers all over the country. After all, it is only just taking off what you put on last year. In Northern Ireland the price of sugar to-day is 2d. a pound; here in the Free State it is 3¾d.

It is 4/4 a stone in the Free State, and in Northern Ireland it is 2/4.

Where is it 3¾d. per lb.?

I will give you that information later. I think the Minister should have made some effort to reduce the price of flour and give some definite relief to the poor of the country in that respect. Flour in Northern Ireland and England at present, straight-run flour, is 26/- a sack; in the Free State it is 42/-. We always heard, so far as England is concerned, that it was the wealthiest country in the world. The Free State is a poor country. How can we afford to pay almost double what the richest country in the world is paying for flour? There must be something wrong.

I listened with great attention last night to the Minister for Industry and Commerce when he was telling us about the 46,000 workers he put into employment. He almost led me to believe that there was nobody out of work in the Free State. When we look at the number of persons on the dole it is a different proposition. I have here a list of the number of men employed on relief works on roads in County Mayo. In December, 1932, there were 3,105 men; in 1933 we had 269—that is, after a year of Fianna Fáil administration; in 1934 there were 444 men employed, and in 1935 there were 467. The total number employed on relief works in 1932 in that county was 15,363; in 1935, the last year for which we have returns, there were 4,032. That indicates there were 11,000 less employed last year than in 1932.

I think the Minister should make some effort to give relief to the farmers with regard to Local Loans. The Local Loans and the R.I.C. pensions, which are withheld by this Government, have to be paid through the tariffs on cattle; it has all to come out of the pockets of the farmers. If the farmers were left as they were some years ago, all they would have to pay would be their annuities, and these would amount altogether to about £3,000,000 a year. Instead of £3,000,000, they now have to pay £7,000,000—£3,000,000 in annuities to the British Government, together with Local Loans and R.I.C. pensions, which bring the amount to £5,000,000, and then they have to pay 50 per cent. of their annuities to the present Government. In all, it brings the farmers' annuities and so forth to £7,000,000. I am afraid, from what I can see in the West, that the farmers are practically on the verge of bankruptcy. Their standard of living has been cut down almost to nil, and the position is that they cannot stand out very much longer.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce told us he had a great number of people employed, and he mentioned the wonderful factories he has established. Where they are I do not know. There may be some, but there is none in the West; there are very few in Connaught, anyway. I do not suppose there are 100 people employed in Connaught in all the new factories mentioned by the Minister, if there were any set up there. As regards County Mayo, I know there is one thread factory in Westport, which gives employment to 30 or 40 girls, I understand.

We also heard from the Government Benches about the great prosperity all over the country. I have here the statement by the Minister for Finance with regard to Savings Banks, and what he says would not indicate that we are very prosperous. The Minister said:—

"I have no doubt whatever that were we to make the yield on Certificates slightly more attractive we could considerably increase our borrowings under this head. But for reasons with which I do not wish at this stage to burden the House, I do not consider it advisable to do so."

—I can readily understand why he did not consider it advisable to do so—

"I shall merely say that of set policy I have so regulated the rate of interest upon our Savings Certificates as to keep our liabilities in regard to them within modest and reasonable limits. It is therefore not a matter of concern to me, nor need it be to others, that the amount paid out of the Exchequer last year in respect of the principal of Savings Certificates exceeds by £28,000 the amount paid in."

I do not see where the thrift comes in when £28,000 more was paid out than the actual deposits received in the Savings Banks. That is no indication of prosperity.

Read the rest of the passage; read about the Post Office Savings deposits.

Will the Minister tell us about the Bank deposits and our sterling assets?

I leave that to the Deputy.

The Minister wants only half the story.

Deputy Nally should be allowed to make his own speech.

There is another matter upon which I would like the Minister to give us some light. It has reference to a sum of £360,000 for the repayment of the Dáil External Loan. There is a sum of £4,000 for something else, but I would like him to tell us about that Dáil External Loan. Why is it necessary to keep up this office with a staff in New York for the purpose of receiving money from this country for the payment of these shareholders? Would the Minister tell us how much of that money is coming back to this country and who in this country is to get it? Who are the principal shareholders or stockholders here?

That is a matter that does not arise on this motion.

It is referred to.

Surely the expenses of an office in America is a matter of administration. It does not arise now.

I only ask the question of the Minister to give him an opportunity of giving an explanation as to this £360,000 which he is asking this House for that purpose. I understand that last year there was a Stamp Duty Act passed, or that at least the Minister for Finance was empowered to demand that stamps be affixed to various documents. Now I want to tell the House that in the County of Mayo alone this is going to cost the county council a sum of £2,800 a year. Receipts for rates have to bear a stamp. Every tender form for a road, even a tender amounting to only 30/- or £2 must bear a 10/- stamp. I submit that the Minister for Finance should do something to relieve the county councils in respect of that duty.

With regard to Housing, I know that a great deal of money has been spent all over the country. We are all glad to see that the complexion of the country is changing. That work was started during the Cosgrave régime. The present Government have done a great deal also in the matter of housing. There is one matter to which I would like to refer with regard to the amount of money which is wilfully wasted on the building of these houses——

That is a question of administration.

Well, then I will not refer to it. On the subject of defaulting annuitants I wish to point out that the county councils have had to pay considerable amounts under this head. I think some relief should be given by the Minister to the county councils in this matter of defaulting annuitants. After four years' administration by the present Government, I think this Budget is nothing about which the Government should go into ecstasies. We expected a better Budget after the £13,000,000 or the £14,000,000 that the Government have spent in excess of what their predecessors spent. That is all I have to say.

It is with a certain amount of diffidence I rise to say a few words on this Budget. After the homely advice we have got from certain Deputies on the Government Benches—advice mixed with a threat —that we, the members of the Opposition, should not waste the time of the House in unduly criticising the Budget presented by the Minister for Finance, one is forced to recall what happened in other days. When I remember the attitude of the present Government when they were in Opposition, the advice now of the back-benchers reminds me of the old saying about Satan rebuking sin. When in Opposition, the Fianna Fáil Party wasted weeks and months in saying the same thing day after day. Though it may be displeasing to certain members of the Fianna Fáil Party, I think it my duty, as a member of the House, to say a few words on what is, after all, the most important discussion that can take place in this House in the course of the year. Might I say that I rise with no spirit of vindictiveness or ill-feeling against anybody? I only just want to put before the House my views.

On the first page of the Budget, according to the figures given, the Minister expressed himself as being very happy in the knowledge of the fact that revenue in the past year has exceeded income or that the estimated income has been exceeded by well over £1,000,000. That, of course, is a matter on which the Minister can congratulate himself. I think he estimated for something like £29,000,000, while the actual revenue was £30,601,000. The expenditure was £31,106,140. Subtracting one from the other, we get a deficit of £500,000, but by various devices of additions and subtractions the Minister in the long run makes out that he has got a surplus of £1,092,000. The manner in which he arrives at that figure is as follows: he takes the sum of £461,000 expended in the erection of alcohol factories, afforestation, and the repayment of the Dáil Eireann External Loan. Naturally these are items which, I believe, after all can be met by borrowing. The Minister is entitled to do that. But when it comes to the question of the £2,000,000 which he pays in subsidies and bounties, he proposes to meet half of that by borrowing. I submit that in doing that he is not on safe ground. It might very well be that these £2,000,000 could be used to give some relief which he himself when in Opposition promised to the farmers. He promised them derating, a thing of which we hear very little lately, notably from the back benchers of the Fianna Fáil Party, who are silent on this matter. When in Opposition, the Minister stated that unless they were given derating the position of the farmers would be very bad. I notice to-day that during this discussion the Government Benches are empty. There is not a word about the position of the farming community at the present time, though the members of the Government Party waxed eloquent when in Opposition about the woes and sufferings of the farmers. I remember that the Minister for Finance himself made a very deep impression upon me by advocating derating in the years when he was in Opposition.

Yes. He told the then Minister for Finance how savings could be effected, and how in this way relief could be given to the farmers.

Has the Deputy a quotation from me to that effect?

It is this way. Somehow when I read a thing I have a fairly good memory; I can give nearly every word of what was said. Now, in one word, does the Minister deny that his Party stood for derating—that will simplify the matter?

No; we are on the one point—what I said.

I am asking a straight answer to a straight question. We need not bother about the quotation. Does the Minister deny that when in Opposition his Party was out for derating?

That has no bearing on the Budget.

Well, the Minister more or less disbelieves my statement, and I am simply asking him a straight question—did he, when in Opposition, stand for derating?

The concern of the Chair is that the Deputy should relate what any Party did years ago to this discussion.

I am speaking about the £2,000,000 paid in bounties and subsidies which can be met by borrowing. This could meet the cost of derating which had been advocated by the Minister for Finance when in Opposition and which he is not advocating to-day when he is in a position to give effect to his advocacy of it. I just wanted to make the analogy. As regards this whole question of taxation and the capacity of the people to pay, it seems to me, from the speeches delivered by the members of the Government during the past year, the previous two or three years, and when they were in Opposition, that taxation, however high does not matter so long as it is being spent on the people. In other words, there is no difference whether the amount raised by taxation is £30,000,000, £40,000,000, £50,000,000, or £60,000,000. Accepting that theory, and arguing the thing logically, I suggest to the Minister that instead of raising £30,000,000 this year he should have raised £60,000,000, thereby increasing old age pensions to £1 per week, the weekly rate of unemployment benefit to 30/-, and so on. That seemed to be the argument propounded by the members of the Government and also by the members of the Labour Party— that taxation is all right no matter how high it is, so long as it is being used on such things as social services.

I think that idea has been somewhat dispelled from the minds of the Party, judging from the words used by the Minister for Finance on the last page of his Budget statement, words which, in my humble opinion, should be printed in letters of gold and posted at every cross-roads all over this State. They are as follows:—

"We have not resorted to the nostrums and panaceas which are held out so often as easy ways to encompass a most difficult thing: the provision of a frugal sufficiency for everyone's needs...."

I am glad he put in that word "frugal." It makes all the difference in the world. Having regard to the nice, flowery speeches that used to be made by the members of the Fianna Fáil Party and Labour Party about a good, high standard of living, the word "frugal" is a very significant one.

"...It has been done as the phrase has it, `Within the System.' We have those among us who advocate Communism, State Socialism, Totalitarianism. To me these are but aspects of the one tyrannv, and as they are all repugnant to the essence of human liberty, the freedom of the mind and of the conscience, I hate and abhor them all."

These are words with which I thoroughly agree, for the reason that experience seems to have taught the Minister a great deal since he assumed responsibility. I welcome these words for the reason that at long last the Government, through their Minister for Finance, have got away from the idea that high taxation is not inimical to the best interests of this or any other country. Really, that seemed to run through all the speeches delivered by the members of that Party, and it was backed up to the extent of 100 per cent. by the members of the Labour Party. I am glad that the Minister for Finance has given a very hard knock to the policy of State Socialism, as advocated by the Labour Party. He says of State Socialism, Communism. and all the other "isms" that he hates them all—that they are all the same, that they are all the children of the one tyranny. These are great words. I congratulate the Minister on having the moral courage to use these words, because they, give great hope for the future of this country, and disclose a change of mind and a change of policy on the part of those who at present occupy the Government benches.

Certain statements were also made here by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, who by the way, might be termed the little man with the big voice. He might be termed the shock Minister of the Fianna Fáil Party who tries to frighten everybody by speak ing as loud as he can. Of course when they cannot succeed in that way, they get Deputy Kehoe to act the part of the court jester.

Court jester is not a Parliamentary term applied to any Deputy.

Then I will say that Deputy Kehoe would introduce the note of levity into the discussion. The Minister for Industry and Commerce tried last night to snow under the Opposition by talking as loud as he could. He made certain statements which, in my opinion, would go to show that he has given very little study to the conditions, existing in this country at present. For instance, he stated that the cost of living has not increased. He also stated that unemployment is well on the way of being settled—that were it not for the criticism and the hindrance of the Opposition, the Government would be well on the way of having all these things satisfactorily settled. Anybody who gives any study to the matter knows that at the present time there are large numbers of people unemployed. The Minister last night disputed the numbers. He stated that we were not to take the official figures as representing the number of unemployed. He gave as a reason that, owing to the facilities offered by the Government in the matter of registration, those who did not register previously now have the opportunity of doing so.

In regard to that I must say that I never could understand at the time, nor do I understand now, why the Minister introduced the question of registration when he was not in a position to stand behind it. After all, when the number registered is returned at 140,000, it is no excuse for the Minister to state "That number is not correct, because we have given an opportunity to thousands of people who were denied the opportunity before of registering themselves as unemployed." The fact is, at any rate, that there are many thousands of people at the present time unemployed. While giving credit to the Government for the employment which they have undoubtedly created, I would say that they are taking the gross result of their policy. They forget that there is such a thing as the net result. They have to subtract from the gross the number of people who have been put out of employment by their policy. In that way you will get the exact number which the Government have put into employment.

For instance, when the wheat policy was about to be put into operation, it was stated here that if we grew all the wheat we required it would provide employment for an extra 40,000 people. And the way he arrived at that was by a simple sum just as a schoolmaster would arrive at a result of a sum worked out on a blackboard. He assumed that for every 20 acres extra grown there would be an extra man employed; 2,000 acres would mean employment for 100 men, and so on, until we get to 800,000 acres, which he worked out would give employment to 40,000 men. But anyone who knows anything about the matter knows that many acres of wheat could be grown without any extra employment being given. I am not a farmer but I know sufficient about this matter to know that 99 per cent. of the farmers, with average holdings of 20 acres could, without any additional help whatever, sow a couple of extra acres of barley or wheat or oats. It does not follow that if the whole 800,000 acres were grown that it would give employment to the numbers mentioned by the Minister for Defence, some years ago, when he spoke upon this question.

One does not like, having got such homely advice from the Government, to criticise them unduly. We know their failure to solve the unemployment question. I know it is almost impossible of solution, and I am prepared to make allowances. But what I object to is that, notwithstanding the fact that many members of the Government have stated that it is a thing that cannot be solved overnight yet, when they were attending crossroad meetings of the Fianna Fáil Party in the country they declared that they would solve it. On the occasion of the last general election they declared that they would solve the unemployment question if returned to power. Should there be another general election to-morrow they would have the hardihood to get up and state again that, if they were returned to power, they would solve the unemployment question. I feel very strongly upon this because, at the first election in 1927, at which I was a candidate, I said, from every public platform, that no Government could solve the unemployment question. I went further, and said it was not the duty of the Government to solve the unemployment question, because the moment a Government tried to solve the unemployment situation the more unemployment they would create. After seven or eight years of promises of this kind what do we find to-day? We find the Minister for Finance taking £1,150,000 in his Budget for the relief of unemployment, which proves that my philosophy was correct. My statement was true in 1927, and it is true to-day, that the Government cannot solve the problem. They can by legislation help private enterprise and thrift, and they could do more, in that direction, to solve the unemployment question than all the doles and all the moneys that can be voted by this or any other Government. That has been proved in the United States of America. President Roosevelt started, with a great flourish of trumpets, to solve the unemployment question in the States. But the Minister for Finance and his Government were lured on by the Labour Party here to embark on wild-cat schemes that lowered the dignity and honour of Labour, and refused to take the advice of a man like myself who knows more about Labour than any member of the Party opposite. I am proud to state here to-night what I stated in 1927, and my words have been prophetic. We must have private enterprise and personal thrift, says the Minister.

Again, in a speech delivered by the Minister for Industry and Commerce on this question of unemployment, he said he had already succeeded in placing in employment well over 36,000 extra hands, and that we were only half through. I do not say that that is not correct, but I do say that when he is through with the other half there will be very little left of the first half in employment. According to his own figures there are 140,000 persons unemployed. When he gets to the end of the other half of that number there will be 250,000 idle. I would suggest to the Minister for Industry and Commerce—and I am sorry he is not here—to read something that answers his remarks very effectively. I think his speeches on this matter of unemployment would be more becoming if delivered at cross-roads meetings, and perhaps very stormy meetings. His speeches on this subject would be more becoming if delivered at such places rather than in an assembly such as this. I commend these words which I am about to read to him. Lecturing on "The Crisis of Intelligence" on Wednesday, Father A. Little, S.J., said:

"The world, in spite of its increase in knowledge, was finding itself more and more unable to solve its social, political, scientific and other problems, and was consequently becoming more and more disordered. That inability was attributable to the fact that philosophical knowledge had ceased to be current among experts and leaders of the various activities"—including, I presume, political activities. "Hence, they were ignorant of the absolute and necessary laws known by philosophy that must be respected if any policy was to be ultimately successful. Those ignorant of such laws were disqualified from foreseeing the ultimate consequences of their plans, and must have recourse to experimentation to find out the solution of any problem. But experimentation could only show the inadequacy of a given means to a desired end at the cost of failure often disastrous."

I think that that answers the speech delivered by the Minister for Industry and Commerce last night. I recommend him to study it, because most of his experiments, to use his own words, have been disastrous. He said that he would solve the unemployment problem within practically 12 months. He finds, after three or four years of office, that he is only half-way through. Nobody knows what the position will be when he has got through the other half. I do not want to go through the various items in the Budget. I am one of those who always believed in giving fair play and being as honest and as impartial as possible.

I should like to pay tribute to the Minister for a certain remark which he made in the Budget and which has been the subject of much criticism by other Deputies. I am not one of those who would take advantage of that remark by the Minister because it is a common-sense remark and it refers to a matter which will have to be faced up to by Deputies of all Parties The Minister mentioned that, when there was work for 70 men, only seven turned up. In my opinion, a wrong construction was put upon that statement. We need not be talking with our tongues in our cheeks. We know the state of affairs that exists in some parts of the country. We know that the workers of this country are as good as the workers of any other country. We know, too, that some of them have certain failings. I am not one who would take advantage of the Minister's statement, and I do not criticise him for it. I should like to be fair to him. This is a big matter and we are a small country and the sooner we get away from this highfalutin' talk about a high standard of living and great wages, as if this country were flowing with milk and honey, the better for all concerned— the better for this Government and the better for all future Governments.

Usually, on such an important occasion as this, a Minister occupying the responsible office which the Minister for Finance holds, would make some reference to the future trade relationships of this country with other countries, notably Great Britain. In my opinion, those relationships will have a very big effect on future Budgets and will determine whether they will be good or bad. I thought that the Minister would make, at least, some reference to the question of the settlement of the economic war, or, if he did not settle the economic war, that he would at least do the next best thing—set up the republic which we have been so long promised. Leaving all jokes aside, I do think that it was the duty of the Minister to make some reference to the settlement of the economic war. I suppose we are all Irish, although I am sometimes termed an "old British imperialist." We are all prepared to stand up for our country in a just cause. I really think it is about time that the Ministers and the members of the Fianna Fáil Party took their courage in their hands and did publicly what they have been doing and what they are prepared to do privately—that is, make a settlement with Great Britain. They have already made a part-settlement.

All that was discussed on another Estimate and may be discussed again on the Estimate for the Department of External Affairs. A discussion on the settlement of the economic war would not, however, be in order on this motion.

I am very serious on this point.

That does not bring it into order.

In the first page of the Budget, the Minister freely admits that the favourable position, so far as the finances of the country are concerned, was due in large measure to the conditions prevailing in other countries.

Would the Deputy propose to discuss conditions prevailing in Abyssinia on this motion?

If the economic conditions in Great Britain had such an advantageous effect on this country, notwithstanding that there is a slight difference of opinion between Great Britain and the Free State, how much greater would that advantage be if we had what is called free-trade with Great Britain?

Has the Deputy not now made his point?

I should like to emphasise it, because I know the Minister in his heart would like to have the economic war out of the way.

The Minister is not responsible, as Minister for Finance, for the settlement of the economic dispute. The Deputy has made his point. Other Deputies might be equally in earnest on the same subject, and would be equally entitled to speak. The Deputy realises what the position would be if the door were once opened.

I quite appreciate that and I shall leave the matter with an expression of the wish that the Minister will, in the near future, do something to bring that dispute to an end. On the whole, much could be said by way of praising the Budget and much could be said by way of criticising it. Many branches of the Government's policy have done much good for the country. I should like to emphasise, however, that that is due to a large extent—I think the Minister will admit this—to the co-operation which the Government has received from all sections of the people. That is one of the things I should like to emphasise, in view of certain speeches made by members of the Government in the country. The Government have received—I am glad that they have— great co-operation from all sections of the people.

From the people but not from the members of the House.

They have received great co-operation in counties such as the county I myself represent, which has a very large majority against the Government. I do not think that any county gives as loyal support to the Government as that county, They are a law-abiding people, and their public representatives always advocate obedience to the law, unlike certain other counties which are strongly Fianna Fáil. I should like to bring it to the notice of the Minister that the Government received a good deal of co-operation from all classes and all sections in that county, possibly much more than the previous Government received at the time that the present Government was in Opposition. That position existed. If we are to criticise it, it is our duty to do so, as long as the criticism is of a constructive nature. I trust when the next Budget comes along that possibly in having additions to the revenue the Minister will be able to make certain remissions, or be able to reduce the taxation that has at present to be raised. I am sure he will remember this, after all the measures that have been taken by the Government to solve unemployment, the problem still remains; that the more money set apart for it, the more will have to be set apart each year, and that as far as is humanly possible the Government should leave it to private enterprise. I am sure the Minister will be wiser if that is done, as set out in his Budget statement.

The Minister for Finance.

He is not concluding.

No. A speech such as we have just listened to from Deputy Coburn is so disarming that I scarcely have the heart to reply to some of the hard things said about this Budget. At the same time, the reception which the Budget has received at the hands of the House is also rather an unusual one. In opening my Budget statement on Tuesday last, I ventured to liken the bound volume of the criticisms directed against the preceding Budget to the Book of Lamentations. This year, not even the critics could find material to criticise our proposals; but, nevertheless, they could not deny themselves the morbid delectation of at least one penitential psalm. Accordingly, yesterday afternoon we had Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney, "like the pelican in the wilderness," rose-gathering he said he was, but wool-gathering we, who had to listen to him on this side of the House, believed him to be.

Later that evening we had high on the back benches of Fine Gael Deputy McGovern, "like the sparrow that sits alone on the house-top," commiserating with himself on the political misfortune which this Budget would bring to his Party. And of course in the person of Deputy McGilligan we heard "the night raven croaking in the House." Deputy McGilligan's speech was the first, but by no means the best, of the Opposition speeches in this debate. I think he was so awed by its absolute badness that he fled the House immediately afterwards and has not been seen within its precincts since. He was not here yesterday, and he has not been here to-day. Possibly he is a little exhausted after his labours in thinking out those brilliant impromptus and acid nothings with which he occasionally tries to spur the flagging spirits of the Opposition. But we must give the Deputy credit in one respect. He always does try so hard to be funny. It is easy for us on this side to be tolerant with his ill-considered jibes, for they do us no harm. Judging by their faces during his speech on Tuesday, the Front Bench of the Opposition have not the same feeling of security. They remember the hole which Deputy McGilligan dug for himself and his Party during the Budget debates of last year, and they sat carefully wondering what indiscretion he was going to commit next. Indeed, if there was amusement to be found during the course of this, the opening speech for the Opposition, it was not in what Deputy McGilligan said, but in the expression on Deputy John Marcus O'Sullivan's face. There he sat the very image of Queen Victoria, every lineament saying: "We are not amused." So striking, indeed, was the image that I thought for a moment I saw Deputy Osmond Esmonde coming down to garland him with homely vegetables, and Deputy Eamonn O'Neill in a white bainin in close attendance at the ceremony.

Will the Minister talk about the Budget?

One of the things which Deputy McGilligan thought funny—apparently it has incapacitated him from taking part in the debate ever since—was his statement that so close was the Minister for Finance to the rocks that every now and then during the year a tariff resolution had to be launched like a lifeboat. In debates of this sort Deputy McGilligan has chosen as his motto a facile bowdlerisation of the maxim of a great mob leader of the French Revolution. With the Deputy it has become "Audacity! Audacity! Always Audacity." The most brilliant of that principle in practice was the one I have just cited. What were the changes in regard to these Emergency Duties which Deputy McGilligan alleged we had imposed in order to make good deficiencies in the Revenue Estimates during the year? There were 16 Orders under the Emergency Imposition of Duties Act made by the Executive Council last year. Some of these nominally imposed taxation, and some of them actually remitted taxation. The total revenue brought in by those which imposed taxation represented about £25,000 per annum, and the total revenue remitted by those which remitted taxation represented about £770,000 per annum. That is the sort of lifeboat that the Minister for Finance launched when it was thought he was on the rocks.

That includes coal.

That includes coal and the cattle pact. I suppose I ought to mention Deputy Mulcahy, who makes the audacious claim that he took the coal tax off.

And as well as coal it includes grass seed.

And also the duty on pig carcases.

People are paying that elsewhere.

The fact is, in so far as Orders were made by the Executive Council during the 12 months ended 31st March, 1936, they were made in general to remit taxation, and they did remit it to the extent of £770,000.

But the people are paying some of the pig carcase duty.

I am not dealing with what the people are paying. I am dealing with statements made by Deputy McGilligan in this House, and I am asking the House and the people who may be misled by wild and rash statements of the sort, to discount every statement made by Deputy McGilligan in the light of the travesty of the facts in regard to these Emergency Orders, which he presented here on Tuesday last in reference to this Budget.

This is not the only instance of Deputy McGilligan's incomparable audacity. I stated that the revenue collected from general taxation for the year 1935-36, as compared with the year 1931-32, shows an increase of £3,883,000. As against that we had spent on social services, including services of the Land Commission—and later in my speech I hope to be able to show that it is proper to include the work of the Land Commission amongst such services— £4,376,000. The Deputy whose sense of veracity would make him unique even in the realms of Baron Münchausen, and of which I have given one unmitigated example, thought it sufficient to reply to my statement by saying "I do not believe it." But here are the facts. On old age pensions and widows and orphans pensions last year we spent £3,695,000 as against £2,756,000 in 1931-32. Unemployment assistance, unemployment insurance and National Health Insurance took £2,164,000 as against £514,000. On free milk, cheap beef and school meals, there was spent £408,000 as against £25,000, while housing, various relief schemes and other miscellaneous services absorbed £5,371,000 as against £4,743,000.

Including loans.

What is the Deputy talking about?

Including borrowed money.

Not at all. All this money was provided out of taxation, and if the Deputy questions that, there are available to him the Appropriation Accounts for 1931-32, and there will be shortly available to him the Finance Accounts for last year.

I was merely asking a question.

I beg your pardon. The Deputy did not put it in an interrogatory form when he said "including loans." I thought he was making an assertion, not asking a question.

The Minister has surely sufficient imagination to imagine a note of interrogation at the end of anything.

Again, as I pointed out, on the Land Commission in 1931-32 the expenditure was £614,159 while last year it rose to £1,390,000. The result of all this is that, although we did take £3,883,000 more in general taxation than was taken in 1931-32; nevertheless it went back to the people with interest because the additional sums spent on social services was £4,376,000 I say, as I said in the Budget statement, that when these services were before the House there was no Deputy and no Party who questioned this expenditure, who demanded that it should be reduced or suggested that it was greater than our people could bear. Not having raised their voices against it, I do think that in all fairness, in common honesty and in common sincerity, they are not entitled now to make the case that we are taking more in general taxation from the people than was taken in 1931-32. These services are tangible valuable things, and they have to be paid for.

You cannot have it both ways, though I do know that the Opposition do like to try to have it both ways. We had Deputy Bennett getting up here during the course of the debate and telling us that the farmers did not altogether approve of the fact that I proposed this year to borrow one-half of the cost of export bounties and subsidies. He said that farmers do not like that sort of thing, that they do not want to pass these burdens on to another generation, that they prefer to pay for them now. But if I had brought in my Budget and suggested that the farmers should now pay the whole cost of the export bounties and subsidies, I think we would hear Deputy Bennett talking in another vein. We would be told that these were burdens that should properly be borne by posterity. Deputy McGilligan denies the accuracy of my figures for social expenditure, and said he did not believe them. But they are all based on official returns which are presented to the House, based on the Appropriation Accounts of 1931-32, which have been passed by the Comptroller and Auditor-General and examined by the Public Accounts Committee. Accordingly they may be taken to represent the exact position for that year. I cannot say the same for 1935-36 but I do say that the figures I have given represent substantially the position for that year, and yet Deputy McGilligan says: "I do not believe it."

I submit they do not, as far as the amount of revenue is concerned.

The Deputy has not committed himself in a speech to a statement of that kind. When he does speak, possibly later on in the course of discussion on the Finance Bill, I shall have an opportunity of examining his statement and of saying that I believe, even though it will be made in the utmost good faith, his statement to be as groundless as the statement to which Deputy McGilligan committed himself on Tuesday in regard to the Emergency Orders imposed under the Emergency (Imposition of Duties) Act.

I was going to say that the Deputy who made this statement, the statement that he did not believe what I said in regard to our expenditure on social services, had the same bald observation to make in reply to my statement that the increase in the national debt between 31st March, 1923, and 31st March last, after making every allowance for all the concealed commitments arising out of the State's campaign for the better housing of the people, amounted to £5,880,000. I was at great pains to show how that conclusion was arrived at. I was perfectly certain that it was a great burden on the House to try to follow the rather complicated mass of figures which, to the best of my ability, I tried to put before Deputies as clearly and as lucidly as possible. The House with the exception of Deputy McGilligan, who I think had not listened to me at all, heard me with great patience and yet this Deputy, who quite obviously had not paid any attention to what I was saying—he had not the text of the speech before him; he was working over there in the corner giving the last touch of polish to the impromptus with which he was to tickle the ears of the groundlings in the course of his speech later—got up and said: "I do not believe it." Deputy McGilligan in this matter is like the yokel who went to the zoo for the first time, and sceptical with the scepticism of the inert mind, said: "I do not believe it. There ain't no such animal."

Deputy McGilligan does not believe it. So this is the yardstick with which the Fine Gael Party through their principal spokesman in this debate, because he opened the line of the principal criticism for them, are going to ask the people of this country to judge the Budget that was put before them on Tuesday last. Deputy McGilligan does, not believe it. But where, within the whole range of human credibility, is there one good thing that Deputy McGilligan believes about those who differ from him? That is the fundamental defect in Deputy McGilligan's mentality, his inability to believe good of anyone. I do not think that he has even a very high opinion of his colleagues on the Front Bench. He scarcely ever condescends to confer on them the privilege of his company except when he comes here bursting for deliverance. Those who were in the Dáil when Deputy McGilligan was Minister for Industry and Commerce can well remember, and are never likely to forget, the bitter and unscrupulous way that he dealt with those who were friends of his student days, or had been his political associates, or even those with whom he had had official relations, when they ventured to differ from him.

I wonder will this reduce taxation.

No; but I hope it will reduce Deputy McGilligan.

It will help to keep the printers working.

Deputy McGilligan did not believe any good might be said of them, or that there was any good in anything they did. The Deputy bears the surname McGilligan. If the sceptical faculty were purely hereditary, the Deputy's proper surname would be MacThomas.

Another impromptu.

Not at all.

Where is your own Front Bench?

They know that the Government's case in regard to this Budget is in competent hands.

That is the tragedy of this country.

Are we to understand from the Minister's remarks that he now classes Deputy McGilligan amongst the leopards as he classed another member of the House before?

I suppose I am not permitted to indulge in conversation with Deputy Mulcahy. I do not see the appositeness of that remark.

I thought that the Minister was classifying Deputy McGilligan as a leopard.

I think it would be better if we ceased discussing Deputy McGilligan. I do not understand Deputy Mulcahy's remark.

The Minister previously classified a member of this House as a leopard. Do I understand that Deputy McGilligan is now being put in that class, and if not, in what class?

I think the Minister should not be asked to classify anyone. He ought to be allowed to discuss the Budget and nothing else.

And I suggest that he ought to stop classifying people.

The principal criticism which is being directed against several of the proposals in this Budget is that Deputy McGilligan does not believe them. I am merely suggesting that Deputy McGilligan might properly be classified with the arch-sceptic——

Well, Thomas. Another instance of this scepticism of which, I think, I am properly entitled to complain, because it is scepticism which is not based upon knowledge, is that in the course of my Budget statement I gave figures showing that the savings amongst the less affluent section of the community between 1931-32 and 1935-36 increased from £13,167,000 to £18,665,000, or by almost £5,500,000 in four year, and, once more, Deputy McGilligan did not believe it. Last year the Deputy did not believe that our income was expanding. One of the points that he made in the debate on last year's Budget was that the yield from income and property taxes was drying up. This year the yield from income and property taxes alone, including stamp duty on the sweepstakes, is up by £550,000.

I understand that it was suggested this evening, when I was temporarily absent from the House, that the amount which had been brought in by the alteration in the basis for assessments in regard to the ownership of property last year had been very much under-estimated by me. When that proposal was before the House last year I indicated that I thought it would bring in £30,000 this year.

£60,000.

£30,000 this year.

Then the records are wrong.

I say that particular proposal. There were others. So far as we have been able to check the figures, the amount that it has brought in is £35,000, and if the records are wrong they are wrong in my favour because I did not deliberately underestimate the yield. The figure was put down in my Budget statement on the best advice available to me at £30,000. But in any event, so far as we have been able to calculate the yield, it is £35,000, and it is not, as Deputy McGilligan has tried to suggest, very much more than that figure.

It is not in connection with that figure that I suggested the Minister under-estimated, but in regard to the tax on sugar of ½d. per lb.

I will deal with that, but, once again, the Deputy is wrong. We under-estimated there certainly, and if the Deputy who read my speech a second time for the House this evening, had read carefully what I said in regard to sugar he would have seen that I said this: that, when you increase or impose a tax which is calculated to increase the price of an article, then in estimating the yield from that tax the normal practice is to allow for a decrease in the consumption of the article. Last year, when estimating the yield from the sugar duty, we made an allowance for a decreased consumption, but, fortunately, owing to the improved conditions which every one knows and has experienced himself, the consumption of sugar did not go down. It went up, and, accordingly, of course our revenue went up with it.

Let me get back to Deputy McGilligan and his unbelief. The Deputy did not believe that we would be able to secure last year the yield which we estimated we would get from income tax, just as he does not believe that the National Debt this year, is up by only £5,880,000, so he does not believe that the savings of the workers are up by £5,500,000. Not merely does he not believe that, but he goes on to say:—

"Let us get a calculation based on the two, and the Minister will find that although he can boast that thrift has not been completely ousted from the country the amount put by for the last four years

—he was speaking of Savings Bank Deposits and Savings Certificates—

is down by at least £350,000 on what the average figure used to be."

What are the facts in that regard? Deputy McGilligan had no facts upon which to base that statement—none whatever—but he thought that if he did a little harm to the credit of this country he might get a few headlines in the British newspapers; he thought they might state: "Deputy McGilligan says that the rate of saving in the Irish Free State has declined," and accordingly he made himself responsible for that statement. Now, what are the facts? Not merely has the total volume of savings increased but the rate of savings has increased also. The Irish Post Office Savings Bank was established on 1st January, 1923. Between that date and 1932 there were transferred to it from the British Post Office Savings Bank deposits to the value of £137,000 odd. Between 1931-2 and the present year there were no transfers between the two institutions.

Thus the net new savings represented by Post Office deposits during the first nine years of the life of the Irish Post Office Savings Bank, that is the period from 1st January, 1923, to March, 1932, amounted to £3,600,000. I gave the figures more exactly in the Budget statement yesterday. Between the 1st January, 1923, and the end of March last, the new savings have been £6,734,000. What do we find? We find that in the first nine years of the history of the Post Office Savings Bank, that is in the period covered by the previous Administration, the total amount of savings on deposit in the bank was £3,600,000, and the average rate of saving accordingly was about £390,000 per annum, but in the four years from 31st March, 1932, to 31st March, 1936, there was an increase of £3,134,000 in the savings in the Post Office Savings Bank.

Would the Minister state if the first period was that during which the Post Office was being robbed?

I have more regard for Deputy O'Sullivan than to say anything to hurt him, but if he does interrupt and annoy me I shall lose my temper.

They did not rob the Post Office in a temper!

Of course, Deputy O'Sullivan is an old soldier. He knew what was coming out, he wished to divert me from this point. Here are the facts; there was an average rate of saving of £390,000 per annum in the first nine years—the nine years of Mr. Cosgrave's administration—and an average rate of saving of £746,000 per annum during the four years of Mr. de Valera's bankruptcy.

And will not the Minister agree with me that my question was a fair one? That was the period when he was robbing the Post Office?

That is the real truth in regard to our rate of saving, which Deputy McGilligan wants the House to believe is £350,000 per annum less than it used to be. The Deputy does not believe it. Since Deputy McGilligan made his exhibition on the Budget of last year, when he made himself responsible in this House for statements from which he ran away when brought before a Committee of this House, the number of people who do not believe what Deputy McGilligan says outnumbers even the number of things that Deputy McGilligan does not believe.

Would the Minister now tell us about the bank deposits?

It is quite obvious that Deputies do not like to hear about the things that Deputy McGilligan does not believe.

We like to hear the whole story.

Here is one of the things that Deputy McGilligan does believe. "The Government," he said on Tuesday, "got their power by bribery. The day it is realised and confessed that it was bribery, that day the Government ends. As long as there is money to be spent on roads, on public health services, on getting people jobs, on getting people places through political influence, there is a chance for a Party unconscientious about the use of public money to remain in power." That is one of the things Deputy McGilligan does believe. That is an allegation of wholesale bribery and corruption—"getting people jobs, getting people places through political influence," and again, "as long as there is money to be spent on roads, on public health services..." In other countries prominent politicians are sometimes referred to as being of Presidential timber, that is to say they are generally regarded as being of the character and calibre which would befit them for the office of the Presidency. Deputy McGilligan in the bowels of African savagery might make an efficient witch doctor, a smeller out of corruption, for that is the function of a witch doctor in the African political hierarchy. That is the very function which Deputy McGilligan has arrogated to himself in the political life of this State. He is the witch doctor of Fine Gael. When the Deputy rises to speak in any debate in this House, there is one insurance that his hearers may make with absolute certainty, that it will be as profitable and secure as an insurance against, say, a rise in income-tax, and that is that Deputy McGilligan in the course of his remarks will charge his political opponents with graft and corruption. We had it on Tuesday last in that speech from which I have just recited a passage to the House.

The Unemployment Assistance Act, we were told by this Deputy the year before last was brought in by us to corrupt the people. Our increased expenditure upon social services, according to him, was likewise to corrupt the people. Now, the provision which we are making for a programme of public works, and the employment fund which we are setting up to finance it, are also to corrupt the people. The Deputy carries around with him the essence of corruption —a bad conscience and a poor opinion of human nature, based upon self knowledge, with which for his own self-torture he has been burdened. The Deputy is a good witch doctor. He is a keen smeller-out of corruption. On this matter of corruption he has delicate nostrils which must be an occasion of unceasing offence to him because of their juxtaposition with the thoughts which lie so close to them. Let us hear no more from Deputy McGilligan about bribery and corruption, because when the Deputy opens his mind on that subject in this House, it is like removing the lid from a long-buried coffin.

There is talk about coffins and funerals from the Minister for Finance.

Let us have less talk about corruption. Let us not hear any more of it. It ought not to be mentioned in this State or in this House because I do not believe it exists here, and I am prepared to say this—that I do not believe it existed when our opponents were in office. I do not believe that there are Irishmen in power or in political life here to-day who would be corrupt. It is no credit to any Party that the words should be used in this House. Because certain things happened in other countries, the lie and slander have followed the Irish race wherever they have engaged in politics. Let us, at any rate, banish the words bribery and corruption out of Irish politics. The only man who habitually uses them in this House and on the platform is Deputy McGilligan, and, as I say, it would be better for everybody and for us all if we heard no more about them.

Turning from a consideration of Deputy McGilligan's speech to that of Deputy Dillion is like walking out of the atmosphere of the charnel house into that of the nursery. There is an air of boyish pomposity about those things which Deputy Dillion says which forbids us to be annoyed even at his least veracious hyperbole. It has been amusing to us on these benches to observe the stages of Deputy Dillion's maturing adolescence in Irish politics. His speech on this Budget, I think, should mark the third stage in that development. The first stage started some time after he voted for the Fianna Fáil Budget in 1932. The next stage—I think we might call it the flagellation stage—was when the Deputy, quite obviously, was applying to himself the penitential whip for having once in his whole lifetime voted for a Fianna Fáil Budget. At this very interesting stage of his political development he had not joined the main Opposition, and he used to parade himself publicly before the gaze of Deputy Cosgrave, clothed in sackcloth, beating his breast and crying out: "Mea culpa, mea culpa, I voted for the Fianna Fáil Budget of 1932. I declared it was a humane and Christian Budget, but I pray you, Deputy Cosgrave, forgive me, because I can no longer abide in the cold regions of independence with Deputy MacDermot."

It was during this period that he used to say that he had verbally and oratorically whipped the Minister for Agriculture and whipped the Minister for Industry and Commerce. That mood passed immediately, Abraham— in the person whether of Deputy Cosgrave or General O'Duffy, no one can be quite certain—took Deputy Dillion into his bosom. No longer was it necessary for him to do public penance. His crimes had been forgiven, and he was safe among the hierarchy on the Front Opposition Bench; so he threw away the whip and equipped himself with a pair of boots. He was then in what I might describe as the sadistic stage. He took an unutterable delight in kicking Ministers, and particularly the Minister for Agriculture, down the stairs. He used to come in here and make long speeches retailing his exploits with the hobnailed boot. One day it was the Minister for Industry and Commerce to whom it had been applied, and the next day it was the Minister for Agriculture. The frequent use by Deputy Dillon during this period of the verb "to kick," and the metaphors and similes based upon it, would furnish a subject of intense interest to psycho-analysts and psychotherapists. It is a most perfect example of image transference, because, of course, Deputy Dillon could not get up and disclose his real psychological condition to the House. He could not get up and tell the House what he really thought about the industrial and agricultural progress which the country was making under this Government.

And he could not tell the House what is being debated now, if he were here.

The Minister is reading our hands.

The Opposition on the Front Bench would not permit him to do it, and he had to suppress his real thoughts on the subject. He was suffering from certain repressions, which those who know something about the subject will agree manifested themselves in the particular characteristics of Deputy Dillon's speeches and arguments during that period. He was, in fact, kicking himself for having backed the wrong horse, for being in the wrong Party, for supporting the wrong policy, but he could not tell us that. This mental whirlwind, which was going on inside him every time he got up to speak, compelled him to tell us about the ferocious way in which he had kicked the Minister for Industry and Commerce here, the Minister for Agriculture there and the Minister for Finance in both places at once.

But now we are apparently witnessing the third stage of Deputy Dillon's adolescence. The speech we listened to on this Budget is an indication of it. Apparently he has kicked him so hard that he is, as it were, in a sort of trance. Like those pugilists who become punch drunk and are still able to stand on their feet, Deputy Dillon has been intoxicated by his own kicking, and he now stands in a sort of trance in which he talks as though he were a prophet come to judgment and a mentor of political morals and conduct.

Yesterday, Deputy Dillon ventured to commend me upon the fact that in the course of this year's Budget statement I did not resort to hyperbole. His exact words were: "For the first time, his Budget contained a useful survey of many useful economic problems and saved us a great deal of the hyperbole to which we have become accustomed when he rises to speak."

So we are getting it now.

I deserve no commendation for that. It is to Deputy Dillon himself that the House ought to be grateful.

For this, certainly. Early in Deputy Dillon's political career he cornered all the hyperbole available and the rest of us have been on short commons ever since. I suppose that is why, having no room in his speeches for any other quality, the Deputy, making a virtue of necessity, has been good enough to leave to the rest of us common sense and a regard for accuracy. There are, however, one or two things in Deputy Dillon's speech of which I think serious notice must be taken; first, because, as I said, Deputy Dillon professes to be a master of morals and he ought at least to practise his own precepts. The Deputy alleged that though I had said that the State debt had increased by only £5,883,000 in the four years during which we have been in office, it had, in fact, according to my Budget statement of 1934, deteriorated in the two years since then by £10,000,000 or £11,000,000. I asked the Deputy to produce his authority for that statement and he cited one passage of the Budget statement of 1934. Here is the statement upon which the Deputy relied to support a charge that in the financial statement of the year, which every Finance Minister naturally tries to make as clear and as accurate as he can, I, in some way or another, misrepresented the facts, either now in 1935-36 or when I made this earlier statement in 1934. Here is the 1934 passage on which the Deputy relied:

"Now, take the position of the 31st March last. Our direct liabilities then stood at £44,523,000, our off-setting assets at £27,495,649, and our net direct public debt, after allowing for these assets, at £17,027,000—a reduction of £5,460,000 in two years."

Basing his statement on that, the Deputy then said that if there was a reduction of £5,460,000 in two years—if the debt had been reduced by over £5,000,000 by 1934, and an increase then by £5,800,000 over what it had been in 1931-2, the position had deteriorated by £10,000,000 or £11,000,000 inside the last two years. That is what the Deputy said, and the statement upon which he based it is the one I have just read; and then he stopped. Quite suddenly, he stopped. He must have been stricken by some sort of mental paralysis. At any rate, he seemed to have lost his ability to read, although he did not lose his ability to talk—I suppose that would be impossible— because, immediately after that statement which I have read, in the Budget speech of 1934, there comes this:

"Having said that, however, I must also point out that owing to the provisions of the Land Act of 1933 the Exchequer has assumed responsibility for half the cost of all land purchase transactions carried out under the Land Act of 1923 and subsequent Acts. The effect is, of course, to saddle the Exchequer with a capital obligation amounting now to £11,546,749, but ultimately expanding, when land purchase is completed, to about £17,000,000."

When did the Minister say that?

In this Budget statement of 1934.

Is the Minister surprised to hear that the Irish Press of the 10th May, 1934, stopped at the exact same spot.

Ah! Is that the plea? Is it the plea that a Deputy of this House got his information from the columns of a journal outside this House, when the speech in full is on the official records of this House, and is available for any Deputy who wants to ascertain the truth?

So we cannot get the truth from the Irish Press on the subject?

There is adequate accommodation in the Library for the members of the Opposition as well as for everyone else, and I have no doubt that on the book-shelves there is a green volume containing this speech in extenso, but the Deputy now wants to cover up Deputy Dillon's statement with a report from a newspaper. I am quoting from the official records of this House, and not from any outside source.

Think of the poor man in the street who has to stop where the Irish Press stops!

This debate may be for the benefit of the poor man in the street. At any rate, I know that it is not for the benefit of the Fine Gael Party, and that is why the Deputy does not want me to go on with my speech. I am telling the House, however, where Deputy Dillon stopped in 1934, and if the House turns to page 17 of my Budget statement of last Tuesday, they will see this item of £11,000,000 odd to which I called their attention in clear and definite terms in May, 1934, as a liability of which account should be taken. We did not know then whether or not the economic war would end, or what would happen. It was not necessary to bring it in, but it is brought in now.

It is in here.

That is just the trouble —that it is not brought in here.

On page 15 of the Budget statement of last Tuesday we have this: "Land Acts, 1923-1933—for Costs Fund and State Contribution to Price—£14,605,000." And on page 17 I drew the attention of the House specifically to the fact that the increase in the liability as to £12,000,000 of it, is due to the fact that the land annuities under the post-1923 Acts have been reduced by the Land Act of 1933. It is there in the statement, and I am not responsible if the Deputy cannot read and assimilate the facts. However, I think the Deputy's speech to-day showed that he could not read or assimilate the facts.

Would the Minister now say what was the total increase in debt in two years?

I have given it.

Tell us the total increase in debt in two years?

It is there for the Deputy to make up the calculation himself.

It is in the Budget statements of 1936 and of 1934.

But the Minister cannot tell the House what is the figure.

It is not the business of the Minister to be able to detail every figure and item in the whole statement of accounts.

The Minister challenges the correctness of a figure of £11,000,000 that has been given, and he is not able to put the correct figure against that.

The correct figure is there.

The figure is £5,883,000 as the net increase of the debt over and above what it was in 1931-2.

What was the increase in the last two years?

I cannot give the Deputy that figure.

The Minister is challenging a figure that has been given.

I am merely stating the fact that Deputy Dillon suppressed the essential element in a statement on that matter, and I am pointing out that Deputy Dillon has become a past master in the art of the half-truth.

The Irish Press! The same word.

Mind you, I do not know if the Deputy quite realises what he is doing, but actually he is unconsciously paying a tribute to the Irish Press. Evidently he relies on it rather than on journals of the same political complexion as himself. He wants to get accurate news and he relies on the Irish Press, naturally. I am merely saying that no newspaper can be pleaded here by a Deputy as proof of what was said in the House.

The Minister is now advising us that you cannot rely on the Irish Press.

I am saying that if a Deputy has nothing better to rely on than a newspaper report it merely means that he has been either grossly negligent or grossly indolent. However, let us hear why this increase in the State debt of £5,883,000 has been incurred. I pointed out that £4,000,000 of it—and again I made the most exhaustive presentation of the manner in which that figure had been determined—is due to money which the local authorities have borrowed at the instance of the Government, on the Government's behalf, since the Government meets the loan charges on that account, for the purpose of carrying on a campaign to provide better housing for the people. In addition to that, there is to be added £12,202,000 represented by this increased fund on the Exchequer in respect of the post-1923 land annuities arising out of the 50 per cent. reduction which was granted in the Land Act of 1933. With regard to the total sum of these two items— £16,202,000—we have succeeded in discounting or writing down that particular asset by almost 80 per cent. inside the last three years, and it is an indication of the very conservative basis that is being taken for the valuation of any of the assets that have been put before the House. Deputy Cosgrave, when he was President, used to boast about the credit-worthiness of this State. One thing I am concerned about is that I hope that when the time comes—and a welcome time it will be—for me to lay down the burdens of this office—I shall be able to pass on to my successor a sound basis for the credit and finances of this State, and that he will find the State in a more secure and stronger position than it was when I came in here. I am not saying that now by way of criticism of my predecessors.

I do not know whether the Deputy feels grateful; I do not expect any gratitude for it; it is the essential truth. With regard to the statement made by Deputy Dillon, I said that one could forgive Deputy Dillon a lot because of his boyish pomposity, but when he started in this House to read a lecture to two Continental Powers, I must certainly question the wisdom, the propriety, of doing that on an occasion like this. If the Deputy wants to do it, let him start on some platform outside; let him not rise in the legislature of this country and start to tell other people how to manage their business. We may all have our opinions about how things elsewhere should be carried on, and we hope we may never see certain principles in operation here; but we ought not to take it upon ourselves to lecture other people on how they should manage their own households. We here were too long subject to other people trying to manage ours not to realise that the person who tries to do that sort of thing is doing nothing else but committing an intolerable impertinence.

Deputy Dillon was not concerned so very much about what was happening in Spain and Italy; he was more concerned to do a little blackening after the manner of his master, Deputy McGilligan. He wanted to construct a triptyque in the crude and violent colours of his own over-heated imagination. He wanted to be able to say that in Spain they had anarchy, in Italy highway robbery, and in the Free State futile bankruptcy. Futile bankruptcy was the head-line that Deputy Dillon wanted to see featured in every journal in the world inimical or hostile to the Irish people. That is what he wanted to see and, therefore, he merely, as it were, dragged in Italy and Spain as settings for this gem of his imagination. Of course, this country is not on the way to bankruptcy. The Deputy complimented me—and I am not ungrateful for the compliment —upon the careful survey which I had made of the State's financial position. One thing that that survey did bring out was that this State is not on its way to bankruptcy, that savings are up, that income is up, that income-tax was up by no less than £550,000 last year, although the standard rate had not changed, and so far as the masses of the people are concerned, particularly married people with families, I can say this, that with our 4/6 rate they are very much better off than they were under the 3/6 rate which prevailed when Deputy Cosgrave was in office. If these facts are challenged, I am prepared to produce figures. If there is any person on the Front Benches opposite as sceptical as Deputy McGilligan, who will have the hardihood to say: "I do not believe it," I have the figures here to substantiate that statement. Apparently the statement is accepted.

Even Deputy Mulcahy, who was a member of the previous Administration, knows and acknowledges now that so far as the general mass of small income-tax payers in this country, people with families, are concerned, the effective rate of tax is lower upon them to-day than it was when Deputy Mulcahy was in office as Minister for Local Government.

In view of the fact that £2,000,000 additional in Customs duties comes out of these homes, I do not see the relative importance of that statement.

The Deputy evidently regards discretion as the better part of valour and he is not challenging the statement I have made.

I will put it in its relative perspective when I come to deal with it later.

Do not try to paint the lily. The Deputy has said enough. The Deputy dare not challenge the statement of the Minister for Finance that so far as the small income-tax payers with families are concerned, the effective rate of tax on the 14th May, 1936, is less than what it was on the 31st March, 1932.

I am leaving to the Minister his monopoly of the paint-pots and the paint brushes—paint away.

That is not the only subject in connection with which I must be given a monopoly. There is no one who can challenge me in regard to the income-tax. I have disposed of Deputy McGilligan's challenge in regard to the State debt and the rate of savings. I am sure no one will deny my submissions in relation to the consumption of sugar, wine, beer and spirits. I have said there is an increasing return in regard to the consumption of tobacco, an increased return in respect of entertainments duty and there is more being obtained from petrol, and, taking into consideration every other criticism that has been advanced against the Budget, no person has ventured to say that it is not a sound, a balanced Budget. That is the position. That is all I am concerned to prove—that so far as this country is concerned, notwithstanding Deputy Dillon's triptyque, we are not on the road to futile bankruptcy.

If we could only arrive at common ground in regard to that, we might make a great deal of progress in this State, because it would give everybody hope if they did but realise that, after all, there is something in the agricultural and industrial policy of the Government. The Government have had their own difficulties over the last three or four years; it has been a tough job. No one could try to make that sort of change without meeting with difficulties. I think we are getting over the difficulties and there is a chance for us to try to do our best. Deputy Coburn talked of the sort of co-operation we were getting from people who do not agree with us, through the country. That is quite true; we are getting it from everywhere. There are people investing money in enterprises set up under the fostering care of the State, who would not give us a vote in 12 or even 100 years. I do not suppose they have a single political or cultural idea in common with us, and yet they help us.

If we only got down to this basis, that we would banish all this talk about corruption and bankruptcy, then we might see some hope of progress. Just as happens elsewhere, I quite realise that there must be political parties in the State. You cannot have a healthy, representative democracy without freedom of opinion. People must be allowed to think freely and to co-operate and coalesce with those who think like they do. There is no reason why we ought not to have very keen, very searching and very hostile criticism coming from people who differ from us. I think it would be a very bad day for this State, or for any Government of the State, if the people in opposition did not take their job seriously and did not try to say the hardest things they could about Government policy—did not try to find all the flaws they could in it, and put their views up to us: "There is what we think about it; you do your best and improve upon it."

We were getting down to that stage after the first speech was delivered, but then we had the statement made by Deputy Dillon. As I have already said, one can afford to give him a lot of sympathy. After all, he is a comparatively recent arrival in politics. He has a great deal of ability and natural aptitude for public life, and I do sincerely hope that when next he gets up to talk we will not be treated to the sort of statement we have been having from him recently. I think he is very often the victim of his own eruptive vocabulary. He mounts to the regions of hyperbole, and when he gets there he is quite unable to ride the brain-storm which he himself has created.

Is the Minister speaking from experience?

Maybe, but I am somewhat older, and although I may not be able to control my own tongue on occasion, nevertheless I would like to see a younger person doing better than I have been able to do.

I come now to the speech made by Deputy O'Higgins, which, I think, was really the first attempt to deal fairly, though critically, with the Budget. As far as my recollection goes—and I listened to the speech very attentively—this was the gravamen of his indictment, that we have to spend £2,500,000 to create work and wages. I take exception to that statement on two grounds: first, the money is not being spent merely to create work. That is altogether a wrong approach to the problem. The people who look at this public works programme as a sort of reversion to the philosophy of the treadmill, hard labour yards and those other things which used to be characteristics of the old workhouse system in our country are taking altogether a wrong view of the proposal. That is not the idea. The idea is this: that there is work there which has always been there. We have not created the work. A sum of £675,000 is to be spent on public health services in towns where there never had been public health services before, and I am perfectly convinced that Deputy Mulcahy, with his experience as an ex-Minister of the Government, is not going to say that it would not be a good thing if these public health services could be extended to every urbanised community of significant size in the country.

Yes, if the people in these communities were put in the position to pay for them—if they were in the position of being allowed to work to pay for them.

It would be a very difficult thing for any Government to put everybody in the job he would like. The one critical factor in the whole of this unemployment problem which is making it difficult everywhere is this, that more and more people, by reason of the changes in the methods of production, in technique, and because of the improvements and advances that are being made in labour-saving devices, are being thrown out of the jobs in which they are accustomed to earn their livelihood.

And because farmers are getting £7 10s. for what they got £16 10s. a few years ago——

The Minister, I am sure, will not deny that.

There are a lot of things at this hour of the night that I will not deny. Even in agriculture the methods are changing the world over. Methods are being changed in Great Britain because they have to produce a different article to suit the changed tastes of the people. I was reading the other day in a scientific journal an article indicating the changes which are fast taking place in English agricultural mechanism as well as in industry. I read that they are abandoning the old practice of hay-making because Imperial Chemicals have succeeded in perfecting a very excellent machine at a cost of between £2,000 and £3,000 for drying grass. It was pointed out that that was going to enable the English farmer——

Is that a success?

Well, the article I read said it was a success. I am not a practical farmer like Deputy Belton. I was not there, but I am merely showing the House that there are human minds working on these things, the human minds that have solved the problems of aviation, of television, of wireless broadcasting and the transmission of energy without any visible means of conduction. The minds that have accomplished these things are now devoting themselves to devising new and more efficient processes in agriculture, and they are going to succeed apparently.

The Minister would be much better occupied in reading the local Irish Press and not mind reading that stuff.

The Minister to continue without interruption.

I am afraid that the interjection by Deputy Mulcahy explains quite a lot regarding the last Government. He has not got a receptive mind and Governments must have receptive minds. They must keep continually in touch with human progress and human development. What I was saying before the attempt to put me off the track—I am sorry I did a little bit digress—was this: that in this programme a sum of £675,000 is provided for public health works. That represents not the full amount of work to be done, but only a fraction of the work that can be done. It represents the volume of work, however, which is ready to be undertaken and carried out this year. There is a bigger reservoir behind that still. The plans are there. The Deputy knows from his own experience that the local authorities have been pressing Government after Government to do these things. They have been pressing us to sanction and to assist them to carry out a lot of these public health works. Anyway, whatever future we hope to have for this country we cannot hope to progress unless we equip ourselves at least as well as the other civilised communities in Europe.

More harbours.

Better harbours.

And smaller trade.

That remains to be seen. The tourist industry is becoming more important in the Free State every year. We propose to spend about £600,000 on roads. The roads here are not bad. I think Deputy Mulcahy deserves a great deal of credit for the work done by the Department of Local Government and Public Health during the period he was Minister. I do not say that the roads are bad. They are very good. But, in the last three years all over Europe, there has been a considerable appreciation in the standard which has been set in this matter, and that is the standard by which our roads are to be judged.

We cannot say that here for the last three years.

That may be, but we are trying to change them. We will make mistakes but we will try to do our best. The only point I am trying to make is this, that in our public works programme we are not endeavouring merely to create work, for the work was there all the time. It is useful work which will redound to the benefit of our citizens. It is work that, I believe, over a prolonged period, would have to be carried out in any event, and it is work that will ultimately be reproductive. It will make this country an attractive place for tourists. If we are no longer shipping cattle to England and bringing in manufactured goods in exchange, still the volume of traffic in our ports is not going to diminish. Its character will change. Instead of having goods we will have people coming here. We will give them in exchange for the money they will leave with us our services and a great deal of our produce. I do not think there is any industry that is so intrinsically remunerative as the tourist industry. People come along. You entertain them and they spend money here on your agricultural products. They spend money in services and on the enjoyment of the amenities which you provide for them in the way of tourist roads and all that sort of thing. Every penny they spend in the country is ultimately a profit to the country in so far as it is spent upon things which are produced by our soil and by the labour of our people.

If we want to take advantage of this new habit of humanity we must cater more and more for tourists—for this new habit, which is becoming much more general, of wanting to see what other countries look like, how the people live, and so on, of wishing to compare the standards of other people with our own. One of the things that will result from our public works programme is that we are going to put this island in a position that the people who come to it will leave it with very different ideas from those with which they came. We have been held up to people abroad as a backward people. The more we improve our public health services the more we will be able to do away with those misconceptions. The more we induce tourists to visit this country the more benefit there will be for our people. I move to report progress.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 15th May.

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