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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 27 May 1936

Vol. 62 No. 8

In Committee on Finance. - Telephone Capital Bill, 1936—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. This is the fourth Telephone Capital Bill since the establishment of the Saorstát. Funds for development of the telephone service, as distinct from its operation and maintenance, are provided by Telephone Capital Acts. These Acts authorise the Minister for Finance to issue out of the Central Fund such sums, not exceeding a stipulated amount, as may be required for development of the telephone system in accordance with estimates approved by the Minister for Finance. The funds so provided are repaid by means of terminable annuities extending over a period not exceeding 20 years. Funds so far provided under Telephone Capital Acts amount to £1,250,000—£500,000 by the Act of 1924, £500,000 by the Act of 1927 and £250,000 by the Act of 1931. The amount asked for in the present Bill is £500,000 which, together with £43,000 unexpended out of the moneys provided for under the 1931 Act, will probably suffice for the next four to five years.

The funds provided by Telephone Capital Acts represent an investment by the State in the telephone service as a business. In 1922, when control was first taken over, the capital investment in the service was about £750,000. It is now nearly £2,000,000. The cost of the service has risen from £275,750 in 1922-23 to approximately £382,000 in 1935-36. Revenue has increased in the same period from £229,736 to £487,100. In 1922-23 there was a loss on the service of £46,014. It continued to be unremunerative up to 1931-32, when the turning-point came, and since then there has been a progressive yearly profit. The profit for the year 1934-35 was £78,067, and it is expected that the closing accounts for 1935-36 will show an increase on this. The financial effect of the reductions in charges, which will become operative on the 1st July next, remains to be seen. At the outset they are estimated to cost, approximately, £56,000 in a full year.

It is unnecessary in connection with this Bill to refer in any detail to the very undeveloped and deteriorated condition of the service at its transfer in 1922 or to the various steps which were necessary in subsequent years to bring it to a reasonable state of expansion and efficiency. These matters have already been very fully dealt with in connection with previous Telephone Capital Acts—suffice to state that as compared with 1922 the number of telephone exchanges is now 769, an increase of 577. There are 1,503 call offices, including 81 kiosks, an increase of 918. The number of subscribers is now 23,106, an increase of 11,391; and there are 35,962 telephone stations, an increase of 16,744. There are 15,885 miles of trunk line, as compared with 6,603, and 108,769 miles of underground single wire, as compared with 27,141.

Of the capital funds provided so far for development, about £120,000 has been spent on the establishment of automatic exchanges in Dublin; £296,000 on providing subscribers' circuits; £476,000 on local line underground systems; £100,000 on new manual exchanges and call offices, and £107,000 on trunk lines. These are the main items.

One of the most important improvements carried out in recent years was the introduction of automatic working in the Dublin area. A start with automatics was made with the establishment of the Merrion Street and Ship Street Exchanges, and early this year the Rathmines and Terenure Exchanges were converted to automatic working. Of the 11,200 subscribers in Dublin City and suburbs, 9,300 are now served by automatics. Future plans in this connection include a large automatic exchange at Crown Alley, which will, it is hoped, be completed early next year. The whole of the Greater Dublin area will ultimately be brought within the automatic system but existing manual exchanges will be maintained so long as they are capable of giving satisfactory service. It will, however, be necessary within the next couple of years to provide a new automatic exchange at Dun Laoghaire and also to relieve the position at Drumcondra; but whether in the latter case there should be an entirely new exchange or whether the subscribers should be served instead from Crown Alley has yet to be determined.

A new exchange at Cork will also probably be necessary within the next three or four years. A decision as to the type of plant to be installed has not yet been taken.

Our telephone capital programme for the current financial year originally contemplated an expenditure of approximately £114,000. To meet the increase of trunk traffic expected to follow on the reduction of the trunk-call charges in July next and the additional demands for subscribers' installations induced by the reduction of rentals and the extension of the free mileage area from one to three miles, a considerable expansion of the programme will be necessary and a supplementary programme has been drawn up the cost of which, together with that originally proposed, will amount for the present year to a total of £176,900. Of this, approximately £70,000 will be in respect of new trunk lines and equipment and will cover the provision of additional circuits of the highest efficiency on the Dublin-Cork and Dublin-Sligo-Claremorris routes; also between Dublin and Waterford, Dublin and Drogheda, Clonmel-Waterford, Dublin-Port Laoighise, Cork-Bantry, Athlone-Galway, and in the Ennis, Nenagh, Roscommon, Cavan and various other areas.

Deputies will appreciate that the considerable augmentation of the general telephone network which will be necessary will impose a heavy strain upon our engineering branch and this, coupled with possible delays in obtaining new plant from manufacturers (who, by the way, are very much pressed at present) may mean that for some little time after the 1st July a certain amount of congestion on some of the longer distance circuits may be unavoidable; also some delay in providing service for new subscribers where any substantial pole route construction is involved. The Department is, however, making every effort to secure the necessary additional equipment and, by the taking on of extra staff, to meet all demands as quickly as possible. I trust that where unavoidable delay does occur the public will endeavour to realise the difficulties and for a time, at any rate, refrain from unduly urging their requirements.

It is probable that a particularly marked increase of traffic will materialise on the cross-Channel circuits, the charges for cross-Channel calls being substantially reduced. We are discussing with the British Post Office the possibility of securing some additional direct circuits via Belfast, or, in the event of there being difficulty in this respect, of the laying of another direct cable from Dublin.

The telephone system now extends to all the towns and the great majority of villages throughout the Saorstát, and I think the Department is entitled to claim that it is on the whole a very satisfactory service. With the forthcoming reductions, charges all round will be particularly reasonable. As regards the few remote areas and the smaller villages which are without service owing to the heavy cost which its provision would involve and the negligible traffic which would arise, the solution must lie in some form rural automatics. Experiments are proceeding but a decision in the immediate future is not likely.

I am considering at present whether in connection with the reduction of rates after 7 p.m. some extension of the existing attendance at exchanges which now close down at 8 p.m. may not be feasible. I am hopeful that in the case of all head post offices and other major exchanges it may be feasible to afford attendance up to 9 or 10 p.m. so as to give the public the benefit of two or three hours' service at the night tariff. I may add that continuous attendance at all exchanges is out of the question. The cost would be prohibitive and would be out of all proportion to the "after hours" traffic. The question is one which must also depend for its solution upon the development of country automatics.

The rate of capital expenditure for the past five years has been approximately £55,000 per annum. This rate will naturally be increased by the ordinary growth of the service, but there will be a particular rise in expenditure during the next couple of years by reason of the special measures being taken to increase equipment. As already stated, however, the £500,000 now being asked for will, it is expected, suffice for the next four or five years.

Could the Minister tell us what, approximately, is the life of the plant which he proposes to use the additional £500,000 on? I do not know whether the Minister has had many expressions of appreciation of the improvement that has been brought about in the City of Dublin as a result of the introduction of the automatic telephone, but I think the Department deserves to get an expression of thanks for the rapid extension that has taken place and for the efficiency with which the automatic system is working. I am quite sure that quite a large number of people in the commercial life of the country will be grateful to hear that something is being done to improve the telephone service between this country and Great Britain, in spite of the fact that the war still goes on.

Mr. Boland

Even in war time there must be communications.

I would like to join with Deputy Mulcahy in what he has said about the telephone service, which is now a really up-to-date service. I agree that the Minister is endeavouring to give us a really efficient service. I suppose he realises the decay that is taking place in connection with the telegraph service. That is largely due to the fact that the occasion for sending telegrams usually arises at night, on bank holidays and on Sundays, and because of that people find that the real solution for communicating over large areas of the country is to be found by availing of the telephone service. I think that the Minister is going the right way with regard to the extensions that he is carrying out in that system. There is just one matter that I would like to put before him. I think there are far too many overhead wires and too few underground wires. After a heavy storm, and in the winter after a heavy snowfall, we usually get the information that the wires are down all over the South and West, and, possibly, in the North. I would urge on the Minister that, as far as possible, he should make an attempt to put a large part of the main-line service underground.

The Minister referred to the question of cross-Channel calls. I think it is correct to say that at the present time you cannot get a call through during the middle of the day under an hour.

Mr. Boland

That may happen occasionally, but that is not the general experience of the Department. The Department has not received any complaints from people who are constantly making these cross-Channel calls.

All I can say is that the delay that takes place is far too long. I can tell the Minister that wires are frequently received from people on the other side naming an hour at which they will ring you up. That would not happen if you knew that you could get your call through in a reasonable time. If the Minister makes inquiries he will find that if what I say is not absolutely correct at any rate there is far too little service for what business is offering.

There is another question with which I should like the Minister to deal when replying. On the other side enormous reductions have been made in the cost of telephone calls during the after-hour period. I do not know whether or not that has resulted in the telephones on the other side reaping the benefit of calls to subscribers on this side. If you can ring up from the other side of the water for half what is charged to ring up from here, I suppose the Minister will understand that more calls will come from the other side. I do not know whether, by reducing the cost to the subscribers or the person making the call, to something commensurate with what it is on the other side, the Minister would not reap an increased revenue. Of course these questions require to be gone into very carefully, and I sympathise with the Minister's statement that they could not maintain an all-night service right through the telephone exchanges. The Minister and his Department are doing their very best, and I think that it would be ungracious not to acknowledge that on behalf of the business community.

While the city members are throwing bouquets at the Minister, I think that some of the country Deputies should say a word or two in regard to what the Minister proposes to do. Personally, I would congratulate him on taking courage to deal with the telephone service in the country. Hitherto, it has been a luxury service in the country. The rental of a telephone would be beyond the means of any ordinary country person. With what has been visualised as starting from the 1st July, the rental, if what I have been told is correct, will be brought within reasonable limits. The telephone service, so far as the ordinary country person is concerned, has really not been within practical range. Of course, one can go to the telephone exchange but the telephones in country houses are few and far between. That the Department is seeking to remedy that shows that the Minister and those behind him have some enterprise, and country people will appreciate this little service which it is proposed to give. Now that we have turned from controversial matters, perhaps I might say that the telephone—Deputy Mulcahy will agree with me in this. I am sure—will come in handy now that we have to order coal in 2-cwt. lots.

We should require to have it cheaper. It will mean five calls for half a ton.

The Minister made his statement with such speed that a couple of the figures escaped me. These figures are rather relevant to the question raised by Deputy Mulcahy as to the life of plant of this type. I gathered that, since 1922, expenditure has been £2,500,000.

Mr. Boland

£1,250,000.

The Minister gave the amounts of the various Votes and the tot of them would be, I think, £2,500,000.

Mr. Boland

We have not got this amount yet.

That would make £3,000,000, but, perhaps, the figure of £1,250,000 mentioned by the Minister is the sum of the three items which he read out.

Mr. Boland

That is so.

That explains the difficulty I had. The Minister mentioned £2,000,000 as the capital value afterwards. I thought that these were four separate sums but the £1,250,000 represented the total of the others.

Mr. Boland

Yes.

Can the Minister give us any idea as to the life of the plant? Twenty years is the period for repayment.

Mr. Boland

About 21 years.

There will be annuities over 20 years.

Mr. Boland

We allow 21 years as the approximate life of the plant.

I wonder whether any further reduction could be made, especially for long-distance trunk calls. These present a difficulty at present. I am sure that, if the Minister reduced the charge, he would get five or six times the number of calls which are obtained at present. Take the case of a constituency like mine. It is rather expensive to phone up that constituency from Dublin.

I should like to join in the chorus of congratulation to the Minister on having shown some signs of enterprise. I do not know that I would go so far as Deputy Dockrell went and call him up-to-date, because we have been clamouring for such improvements as these year after year. It seems to me that this country is lagging behind the rest of the world as regards the telephone. The particular point I want to urge on the Minister is, as I suggested in former years on his Estimate, that more might be done to make the country telephone-minded. If he wants to make these new plans of his a success, I cannot help thinking that a great deal more could be done than has been done by way of a publicity campaign and by circularising people in country districts who are likely to become telephone-subscribers. If you ask some people why they have not got a telephone in their houses, the reply is: "What is the good of having a telephone when so few other people have telephones? The people I should want to talk to are without telephones." If once you could get a regular movement towards the telephone, it might quickly assume very large proportions. I cannot help feeling that the Department has been sluggish in this matter of the claims of the telephone and pointing out its value, especially in the country districts.

I should also like to know if anything could be done to make the lines better in the country districts. If you are talking from London to Dublin, my experience is that you can hear better than if you are talking to some country town in the Irish Free State. Whereas you can hear London extremely well from Dublin, if you try to talk to London from some country town in the Irish Free State or from some country house in the Irish Free State, communication becomes very difficult, indeed. I do not know whether it is the lines or the instruments that are bad. I am completely ignorant of these technical matters. But I feel that some part of the equipment must be at fault or it would be easier to have clear conversations by telephone from country parts. I am glad to hear that the Minister is going to make an effort to extend the hours, and I hope he will not weaken on that. It may be that 9 o'clock is as far as he can afford to go until the country does become more telephone-minded. At any rate, I hope and pray he will extend, everywhere he possibly can, the hours from 7 o'clock to 9 o'clock. It is often after dark that the telephone becomes of greatest value.

Mr. Boland

To deal with the point made by Deputy MacDermot, I represent the same constituency as he, and naturally I am as anxious as he or any other Deputy to improve telephone facilities in the country, but, as he knows, the country is not telephone-minded enough to warrant it. It would certainly be a very costly thing to provide all these improvements. An all-night service would be almost impossible, and, after 9 or 10 o'clock, we think there would be very few calls, except emergency calls, and it is even questionable whether we would get many such calls after 10 o'clock.

I forgot to mention Sundays. What about an extended service on Sundays?

Mr. Boland

We can consider what can be done in that respect. We hope that, as a result of the experiments and investigations being made, it will be possible in years to come to have some of these rural automatic telephones which will make it much easier to communicate with the whole country than it is at present, but we cannot do much better than we have done at the moment. I think that when the figures for telephone charges which will come into operation in July next are examined, it will be found that they compare very favourably with charges in England. I think they are pretty much the same, and, on that ground at least, there cannot be much complaint.

Deputy MacDermot has always been asking us to have a publicity campaign, but there are difficulties in that respect. There has been a great increase in the number of telephone subscribers in certain areas, and that means a lot of additional plant. If we had the suggested publicity campaign, we feel that it is in those areas which are what we might call saturated. where the plant cannot carry any more, we would get most of the demand. Deputies will understand that we must make provision for the added calls we expect we will get. That is why I ask Deputies not to be too unreasonable in their complaints of delays for a few months after the new charges come into operation, because we do expect that there may be a rush in Dublin, and possibly in other parts of the country. We are doing all we possibly can to meet that, but there may be difficulty in getting all the equipment we require in a reasonably short time. The Department has already been warned that there will be difficulty in getting all we want, because the countries which make this equipment are engaged on other work. We found that when we tried to get our stuff delivered. We found that in some cases it would take 12 months to get what ordinarily would be delivered in not more than three months.

What countries are they?

Mr. Boland

Germany, Sweden, and even Britain. We believe that the delay in getting equipment is due to preparations for trouble or something of that kind which are being made in these countries. At any rate, they are engaged on other work, and we find that we cannot get stuff as soon as we order it, and I want Deputies to bear that in mind. We cannot simply say: "Send us over so many gross of these things right away." There will be some delay, and it is due to the initiative of the staff, and to the influence which they have with certain firms in England, that we are able to get stuff which otherwise it would not be possible to get.

They might take a few more cattle if we took a few more telephones. Another pact?

Mr. Boland

There is one thing, anyway. We will know where we are when we have a pact. It will not be all the one way as it was before. Deputy O'Sullivan asked for a further reduction of charges, but I am sure he does not expect that we can reduce further than we propose to reduce for the coming year. I hope that when we have got this new scale of charges in operation, and when it pays, as I am quite certain it will, there may be further reductions. I probably will not be in the Post Office then——

Mr. Boland

It will not be anyone on that side either, but, whoever it is, he will have very good grounds for asking the Government to spend more money on the further development of the telephone, because I am perfectly certain that this venture on which we have embarked is going to justify itself in a very short time. There will, however, be a little delay, as I say, until we get things working. With regard to cross-Channel reception, the difficulty, I think, is due to the fact that the wires in England are, in the main, underground.

Is it not due to the fact that the wires are overhead here?

Mr. Boland

To Holyhead they are submarine cables, and are underground to some extent in England, while here, of course, most of our wires are overhead. The cost of putting them underground is very high, and, while everyone will admit that it is desirable to have them underground, the cost is very high, and I do not think there is any chance of our facing that cost until we have served all the districts in the county and tried to cover every area, even those areas which are uneconomic. To put the wires underground would cost an enormous sum of money, and I think it is far better to take the chance of an occasional break-down when you have a storm, and serve all the country, rather than to spend a lot of money in putting the cables underground and allowing other parts of the country to wait for the telephone.

Are there any underground at all in the country districts in Ireland?

Mr. Boland

Not to any extent. You may practically say that there are none. Everyone can see the desirability of having them underground, but the cost is what has to be considered. I do not think there is any more I need say.

Did the Minister say that the life of the plant was 21 years?

Mr. Boland

The loan is for 20 years, and the Department estimates the life of the plant as about 21 years. It will be renewed, say, in 21 years.

Would the Minister not say that it is cutting his financing pretty fine to borrow for 20 years for a plant, the life of which is 21 years?

Mr. Boland

I suppose that is so, but that is the way it has always been done, and, so far, it has proved satisfactory. Years of experience have shown it to be satisfactory and I have no reason to anticipate that it will not be as satisfactory in the future.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 3rd June, 1936.
The Dáil adjourned at 9.30 p.m. until 3 o'clock on Thursday, 28th May, 1936.
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