Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 7 Jul 1936

Vol. 63 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 25—Supplementary Agricultural Grants.

Minister for Finance (Mr. MacEntee)

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £450,489 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith inïoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1937, chun méaduithe an Deontais d'Udaráis Aitiúla chun faoiseamh do dhéanamh maidir le rátaí ar thalamh thalmhaíochta (Uimh. 35 de 1925 agus Uimh. 28 de 1931).

That a sum not exceeding £450,489 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1937, to increase the Grant to Local Authorities in relief of rates on agricultural land (No. 35 of 1925 and No. 28 of 1931).

Go ndeontar suim Bhreise ná raghaidh thar £370,000 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1937, chun méaduithe an Deontais d'Udaráis Aitiúla chun faoiseamh do dhéanamh maidir le rátaí ar thalamh thalmhaíochta (Uimh. 35 de 1925, Uimh. 28 de 1931 agus Uimh. 25 de 1936).

That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £370,000 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1937, to increase the Grant to Local Authorities in relief of rates on agricultural land (No. 35 of 1925, No. 28 of 1931 and No. 25 of 1936).

General Mulcahy

I would like to point out again what has been pointed out before, that is, that the farmers of this country for the last two years found themselves in an unprecedented position in that they had a dead-weight debt of £1,000,000 lying outside their doors in respect of rates that they have not been able to pay, and another dead-weight debt of £1,250,000 in respect of land annuities that they have been unable to pay. We have, then, the most important class in the community, from the point of view of the economic stability of the country, reduced in the last four years to the position that they have £2,250,000 of very unaccustomed debts facing them. So far from that position improving itself, as between rates and land annuities, the debt has increased by something over £100,000, and although that increase may be a comparatively small amount, it is of dangerous significance at a time when the year-end debts have stabilised themselves in that particular way.

The Minister for Local Government indicated the other day that, in respect of rates on agricultural land, there was no prospect of the farmers being assisted by any more than the amount that is being made available to them now. I think the Minister is taking rather too rosy a view of the position. The Government have improved the position of the farmers to some extent by the last coal-cattle pact, but that has only given the farmers back 12/- to 15/- a head on beasts on which they have been made to lose up to £6 a head.

I do not suppose this is the occasion upon which we could ask the Minister for Finance what is being done in connection with the new machinery that is being set up by Great Britain to deal with meat and cattle imports into Great Britain—what is being done to improve the position of the farmers in this country. We are here voting a very substantial amount by way of relief of rates on agricultural land. It is quite obvious from the debts I have referred to that the amounts now being granted, big as they are, are not adequate to meet the situation. If the Minister for Local Government says that nothing more is going to be granted this year, I would like to ask along what other lines is it anticipated that something will be done to improve the position.

Mr. MacEntee

I am afraid I cannot add very much to the information already given to the House, by the Vice-President and Minister for Local Government a few days ago. In addition to that, the House has been occupied recently with a number of measures devised to improve the position of agriculturists and I have no doubt that, as a result of these measures and as a result of improving circumstances generally, local authorities will find themselves in a much better position at the close of this financial year than they were on 31st March last. I might say that already there has been considerable improvement in the collection of land annuities. The last figures I have at my disposal indicate that on the 31st January of this year the arrears of land annuities were of the order which Deputy Mulcahy has indicated, about £1,250,000—£1,299,000 to be correct; that represented the accumulated arrears to the 31st January last. On the 30th June that figure had been reduced to £842,000, and I have no doubt that at the end of the month it will be reduced possibly by another £60,000.

General Mulcahy

In the meantime other payments are becoming due.

Mr. MacEntee

On 30th June the amount was about £500,000 less, the accumulated arrears at that date being about £799,000. I am quite prepared to admit that the position is not nearly so satisfactory as we in the Exchequer would like it to be, but it does represent a considerable improvement upon the position as it existed on the corresponding date of the previous year. I understand that, so far as the collection of rates is concerned, there is the same story to be told, that there has been an improved collection, that the arrears are coming in, and that generally the financial position of the local authorities, who are the bodies immediately concerned with the grant, is also good. I cannot say any more than that. I do not want to paint too rosy a picture.

Mr. MacDermot

Does that figure of arrears of land annuities which the Minister mentioned represent the total arrears?

Mr. MacEntee

That is the accumulated arrear.

Mr. McMenamin

It does not include the May-June gale?

Mr. MacEntee

It is not the arrear for one particular gale but the arrears which have accumulated over the whole period since annuities again became payable, that is after the passing of the 1933 Act. There was at one time a very considerable accumulated arrear. At one period it was over £1,500,000.

Mr. MacDermot

How have the May-June payments been coming in?

Mr. MacEntee

I cannot give any information on that until the end of this month. We will not have any exact figures until, I understand, 31st July. In any event I have only to remind the House of what actually happened in connection with the Guarantee Fund, to which the local taxation grants, including this agricultural grant, are hypothecated. In 1933-34 the net draw on the Guarantee Fund was £373,000. In 1934-35 the net draw was £716,000, but for last year, 1935-36, the net draw had been reduced to £110,000, due of course to the improved collection of the land annuity arrears.

General Mulcahy

That meant that another £110,000, in addition to what was withdrawn already, was withdrawn.

Mr. MacEntee

I know, but at any rate even the Deputy will admit that the fact that the net draw was reduced from £716,000 in 1934-35 to £110,000 in 1935-36 does indicate a considerable improvement in the position. I am not saying that the position is everything which the Deputy or I would desire.

General Mulcahy

It indicates a stabilising of a bad debt position.

Mr. MacEntee

On the contrary, if there is one thing that ought to be clear to the Deputy it is that the position is not static or stabilised.

General Mulcahy

The debt is being stabilised.

Mr. MacEntee

On the contrary.

General Mulcahy

It is being added to by £110,000.

Mr. MacEntee

I suppose the Deputy will always form a different conception of the position from that which I would form. There is no use in his holding pertinaciously to his view of the situation and my trying to rebut that by question and answer or statement and counter-statement across the House. The figures are there. The Deputy may not agree with them; he may not agree with the conclusions which I draw from them, but they are there for the general body of the people. I do think that; on the whole, the generality of opinion will coincide with my own, and that is that if in 1934-35 there was a net draw of £716,000 on the Guarantee Fund, and if for the year 1935-36 the amount of the draw had been reduced to £110,000, at any rate whether or not the situation was as satisfactory as we would like it to be there was a considerable improvement over 12 months.

General Mulcahy

No. There was an increased debt of £110,000.

Mr. MacEntee

I do not wish to put it any further than that. The Deputy will have an opportunity of putting his point of view, I hope, not in the House this afternoon, but elsewhere, and then the general public will know the position. I am only expressing the hope and I should say the confident belief that, when this year closes, the position will have still further improved.

Mr. Cosgrave

Can the Minister give us an idea as to the number of land annuitants that are now in arrear, because obviously, whatever way the position is going to improve, if there are men who are what Deputy Dr. O'Higgins describes as credit-bad in this year, it is not likely that they will pay next year? I want the Minister to answer this question. In view of the fact that there is a good number of tenant farmers in that position, will he between this and the next financial year consider increasing the agricultural grant to make up for that? Assuming that they are in that position, others have got to pay for them. If their position is due to the economic situation, it is scarcely fair at this moment or in times such as these to ask their neighbours to pay for their credit-bad situation. It is an unusual situation; the Minister will admit that.

Mr. MacEntee

I am not in a position to give the Deputy the figures he asks for, but I have paid some attention to this question of land annuity arrears, and I can say that the number of chronic defaulters would be comparatively small. It is difficult for me to give a figure because I should have to make a mental calculation which might not be very sound, but I would say that the number of those who might be regarded as chronic defaulters does not amount to as much as 2 per cent.

Mr. Cosgrave

I think the Minister is wrong in that. I think it would be nearer to 20 per cent.

Mr. MacEntee

I do not want to mislead the Deputy, but I know that the arrears of the earlier gales have been reduced to a comparatively small figure. Of course there is a carry-over, but the mere fact, I think, that the arrears have been reduced every year since the middle of 1934 does indicate that the number of people who might be described as chronic defaulters is not so large as the Deputy thinks it is.

Mr. Cosgrave

Is not the position really this—that three years ago the arrears were £373,000; two years ago the arrears increased by £716,000. making the total arrears £1,089,000; and this year it is up again by £110,000, making up almost £1,200,000? When the Minister says the arrears are lower what he really means is that there is a smaller sum in arrear for the particular year than there was in arrear in the previous year, but the gross total arrear is increasing each year. There is a relatively smaller increase, but nevertheless an increase each year over the preceding one.

Mr. MacEntee

I will not controvert that statement because I have not got the figures, and the Deputy, I think, has some figures in front of him; but I think I am on safe ground in saying that the actual net accumulated arrear at 30th June this year was less than for the same date in the preceding year. I do not want to go any further than that.

Mr. Cosgrave

May I ask the Minister this question? Is 30th June a fair date to take? The accounting dates are 31st July and 31st January. If I were in arrear for two instalments on 31st January last, paid one of those instalments on 30th June, and am going to be in arrear on 31st July, my position is not improved, because after all we must take the accounting date. Those dates which the Minister has mentioned are particularly interesting, but so far as the Guarantee Fund is concerned the critical date is 31st January in each year, and even if, on 1st February, £500,000 were to come off the arrears, the Guarantee Fund is going to be called upon to put up that £500,000. Would the Minister do this in addition to what I have already stated? As the accounting date is 31st January each year, and as he gets each year before 31st March a considerable sum of money off the arrears, will he consider whether or not, in all the circumstances, some consideration ought to be paid to the farmers' needs having regard to that fact?

In other words, do not ask them to pay twice. They may be asked to pay twice in this case. If the Minister deducts £250,000 on the 31st of January from the Agricultural Grant and that £250,000 comes in before the 1st of April off the arrears, so far as those farmers are concerned who are paying rates, and who are yet in a position to pay rates, they will pay that £250,000 for the coming year. Now, does the Minister see my point? My point is that, as from the 31st of January and the 31st of March, if a sum of money comes in, they, nevertheless, have to pay rates to that actual extent over and above what there is in credit value there in cash in the Minister's possession for them, and assuming that the £250,000 amounted to 6d. in the £ and that my valuation is £50, I am at a loss of 25/- for the year, although the money is in the Minister's pocket.

I do not want to disturb the accountancy of the Land Commission or to disturb the accountancy of the Minister's Department, but I do say that in times of special stringency and of difficulty, if the money is paid in before the 31st of March, the Minister should look into the matter of seeing whether it would be possible to spread out the accounting day from the 31st of January to the 31st of March. I quite understand that it may not be easily possible, but if there is money there it appears to me to be scarcely fair, in the first place, to be taxing them in their rates and, in the second place, to be collecting their annuities from them.

Mr. MacEntee

I shall certainly look into the position which Deputy Cosgrave has pointed out to me, and I shall try to see whether, without upsetting all the canons of practice and precedent in the Department, we cannot do something to meet the Deputy's point.

Mr. Cosgrave

Very good.

Vote put and agreed to.