Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 12 Aug 1936

Vol. 63 No. 19

Committee on Finance. - Vote No. 16—Superannuation and Retired Allowances.

Mr. MacEntee

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim Bhreise ná raghaidh thar £2,800 chun íochta an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníochta i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1937, chun Pinsean, Aois-Liúntais, Cúitimh, agus Liúntaisí agus Aiscí, breise agus eile, fé Reachtanna Iolardha; (4 agus 5 Will. 4, c. 24; 22 Vict., c. 26; 50 agus 51 Vict., c. 67; 55 agus 56 Vict., c. 40; 6 Edw. 7, c. 58; 9 Edw. 7, c. 10; 4 agus 5 Geo. 5, c. 86; 9 agus 10 Geo. 5, c. 67 agus c. 68; 10 agus 11 Geo. 5, c. 36; Uimh. 1 de 1922; Uimh. 34 de 1923; Uimh. 7 de 1925; Uimh. 27 de 1926; Uimh. 11 agus Uimh. 36 de 1929; Uimh. 9 de 1934; etc.); agus chun Pinsean, Liúntaisí agus Aiscí nách cinn Reachtúla agus a dheon an tAire Airgid; Tuarastail an Dochtúra Réitigh agus corr-tháillí do Dhochtúirí. etc.

That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £2,800 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1937, for Pensions, Superannuation, Compensation, and Additional and other Allowances and Gratuities under sundry Statutes (4 and 5 Will. 4, c. 24; 22 Vict. c. 26; 50 and 51 Vict., c. 67; 55 and 56 Vict. c. 40; 6 Edw. 7, c. 58; 9 Edw. 7, c. 10; 4 and 5 Geo. 5, c. 86; 9 and 10 Geo. 5, c. 67 and c. 68; 10 and 11 Geo. 5, c. 36; No. 1 of 1922; No. 34 of 1923; No. 7 of 1925; No. 27 of 1926; No. 11 and No. 36 of 1929; No. 9 of 1934; etc.); Extra-Statutory Pensions, Allowances, and Gratuities awarded by the Minister for Finance; the Salary of the Medical Referee and occasional fees to Doctors; etc.

This Supplementary Estimate is required to provide the immediate payment of the moneys which will fall to be disbursed on the enactment of the Superannuation Bill which has just been passed.

Mr. Dillon

We are in Committee on Finance now, and we can make as many speeches as we like on this Vote.

Mr. Belton

I think the Minister is looking for scarcely enough in this Estimate. He became, in his closing remarks on the Bill which has just gone through, very solicitous about the poor farmers and the poor agricultural labourers; in fact, for all suffering humanity around the country. He knows that these unfortunate people for five years had to pay 6d. in the £ for the damage done in 1922. He knows that if it were not for that blackguardism the demands for superannuation put up to General Collins in 1922, which have now become exorbitant, would be trivial. They would mean little or nothing to the State. But instead of that, some £20,000,000 or £30,000,000 went up in smoke that year. The Government of the day was declared an outlaw. But the Government of that day was no way different from the Government of this day.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This is an Estimate asking that a sum not exceeding £2,800 be granted to defray certain charges under certain sections and certain statutes embodied in the White Paper. The discussion on that does not allow us to travel back in respect of what happened here in 1922 or in respect of anything else except that this amount should be voted in respect of certain sections of certain Acts mentioned in this White Paper before the House.

Mr. Belton

It is inadequate compensation for former civil servants, especially as the present Government adopted the principle in the Local Government Act of 1933, Section 7, whereby, ten years after the event, local authorities were compelled to reinstate such servants of theirs as they had not already reinstated. They were compelled to reinstate those officials who went out to fight for the sectional republic in 1922-23, headed as they were by Eamon de Valera as he then was. These men lost their positions but ten years later the present Government introduced a Bill and passed an Act in this House which compelled those local authorities to reinstate officials. Whether reinstated or not the local authorities were compelled to pay them for the year during which they were absent from their work on the local bodies and during which they were engaged in blowing up bridges, burning houses and so on.

The Minister a moment ago said that my suggestion if carried out would rob the public of the country and that it would create an intolerable burden; that there were other people who were entitled to compensation for the time and sacrifice they made in the fight for freedom. The Minister and his Government made the special case for them that they were fighting for freedom. They said they were out fighting for freedom when as a matter of fact they were out to destroy the freedom that we had won. These men should not be compensated at all. They were not fighting any foreign army or any foreign authority. They were fighting a native Government, the Government of this country which was then as much a Government of this country as is the Government we have to-day, the Government of this country. They went out in rebellion against the Irish Government, a Government that expressed the majority will of the people. The people of this country were taxed under the Act to which I have referred. They were taxed in order to make payments to Irregulars who in 1922 and 1923 were engaged in blowing up bridges.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

What has that got to do with it?

Mr. Belton

The Minister spoke against the principle of compensating former civil servants for the time they were out of employment. He said it was an intolerable principle to put up, a principle that no responsible Government could adopt. But the Minister himself adopted that principle in a much worse form in the Local Government Act of 1933. Though no advance has been made to-day towards getting justice, I welcome this discussion because it has unmasked hypocrisy. That hypocrisy has lasted much too long. I am glad the matter is being discussed here to-day. I am glad that many of those civil servants to whom I am referring have made good since those days. I remember on one occasion that a couple of us were asked humiliating questions. We were asked to adopt a humiliating attitude. I referred before to what I said to the gentleman who addressed us. To-day we are not paupers knocking at any workhouse door. If we were I think Workhouse Master MacEntee would not let us in.

Mr. Davin

This Estimate makes provision, I assume, for the payment of additional sums that become due as a result of the Minister's sanction to a certain number of resigned and dismissed R.I.C. men's applications for pensions?

Mr. MacEntee

No, it has nothing to do with the resigned and dismissed R.I.C. men.

Mr. Davin

Would the Minister make a statement on that? I should like to ask the Minister if he would not mind telling us whether a number of people will get this additional compensation as a result of the Minister's sanction, or whether it is only those who are recommended by the Commission set up by himself? I would ask him to state whether any persons other than those recommended by the Commission come under the head of resigned and dismissed R.I.C. men who will get pensions as a result of the recent decision, or is it confined only to those recommended by the Commission?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister to conclude.

Mr. MacEntee

Only those whose applications came before the Committee set up by me to determine whether their resignations from the R.I.C. arose because of their national sympathies—only those applicants whose claims were investigated on that basis and upon whose claims the Committee reported favourably, will get benefits. There were other applicants whom the preceding Committee had decided had resigned on national grounds, but who, because they were associated with a certain side at the time of the Treaty, did not get pensions. In the case of the latter naturally their claims were made good when we took office, because I could not accept as good the reason why my predecessor had refused to grant pensions in those cases. In no case was the pension granted where it was not made clear that the resignation arose because of the national principles and sympathies of the applicant. I do not know that I need say anything more on the Supplementary Estimate. The Dáil has discussed the principles involved in the measure at great length, and we have had a fairly prolonged discussion on it to-day. As I said, the Supplementary Estimate is required to give practical effect to Sections 17 and 18 of the Bill. Of course, no payment will be made out of the Estimate until the Bill has, in fact, become law.

Question put and agreed to.

Report of Supplementary Estimate agreed to.