I have to develop a proof of a most important premise in this discussion because of the doubt cast upon it by the President, namely, what are the real issues of the war in Spain. It must not be taken that my amendment or my criticisms as addressed generally here are in any way opposed to non-intervention, provided that that non-intervention is approached in the right way and approached in a manner that reflects the will of the Irish people on the situation as it now stands, and also that Irish opinion has been advanced and has received full consideration in the discussions which led up to this non-intervention agreement. If, as appears likely, this House is being used only to register a pact already entered into, then every representative here should protest against turning this House into a machine to be used only by some individual or some junta either in this House or outside it. If non-intervention is approached in the right way—by that I mean if we are to become a party to this non-intervention agreement—we must have our position made clear. There is no use in the President coming into this House and saying: "Everybody knows on what side Irish sympathy is." He has not expressed that. Well, I am going to express it, and I challenge contradiction on it: 99.9 per cent. of the Irish people stand for the recognition of General Franco, and there should be no equivocation about it. If, as is proposed in this Bill, we enter a non-intervention pact in present circumstances, we will be in this anomalous position, that we will be the only one of the many nations referred to here yesterday that will be subscribers to this pact and that stands practically unanimously for the National Christian Government of Spain——
Spanish Civil War (Non-Intervention) Bill, 1937—Second Stage (Resumed).
What about Italy and Germany?
The Deputy will get plenty of time to talk without interrupting me, and if he had waited for a moment until I had completed my sentence, he would perhaps have kept silent. I would advise the Deputy to be very careful of his interruptions and of his words here if he has any regard for a political future. I know the constituency he represents, and I challenge him at this moment to get as many supporters as would sign a nomination paper in the County Roscommon. The men who put him here would repudiate him now.
Would the Deputy deal with the Bill before the House?
I resent being interrupted by a man who has only a nominal status in this House.
All Deputies in this House have the same status as Deputies.
A passing status.
Mr. Boland
That is all any of us has. The Deputy ought to know that.
A lot of us will realise that when we consult the people.
"Thou'rt passing hence, my brother."
And the Minister will be one of them. When I was interrupted by Deputy MacDermot I was saying that this country would be the only one of the many nations subscribing to this pact who will officially recognise the Red Government of Spain and whose people want recognition of the National Government of Spain. Italy and Germany and Portugal, before they agreed to this pact in so far as they have agreed, recognised the Franco Government. As far as I am concerned, and as far as the people of this country are concerned, I think they are satisfied and perhaps would be glad to see this non-intervention pact given effect to not only here but by all the Governments of Europe, provided that Ireland was not misrepresented in that pact. My amendment is to the effect that we recognise the Franco Government and then subscribe to this pact.
The President, in an oblique statement yesterday, if I interpreted him rightly, said, in effect, that the Reds in Spain are fighting for something that other people do not believe they are fighting for. He said he should welcome this pact, we should enter into it, and leave it to the Spanish people to work out their own salvation and to choose the form of government they want. He also informed the House that this non-intervention pact was initiated by the French Government, but he did not explain what control is proposed to be taken of, or what supervision is to be exercised over, the French frontier contiguous to the Red portion of Spain. It is most peculiar that if Communist France under its Jewish Freemason Premier stood for non-intervention last September, in November of last year the Cardinal of Spain could pen these lines:—
"At the time these lines are being written, while thousands of soldiers from the Russian Steppes are disembarking at Barcelona with plentiful supplies of war material, a Kremlin —a branch of Russian Komintern—is being set up there as head of the Mediterranean Soviet Republic and centre for the bolshevisation of the West of Europe...."
These very same Soviets were the French allies.
"...The project which, by the special providence of God, could not be carried out in the capital of Spain, has been realised in the capital of Catalonia. Thus has our thesis been proved correct. As far as Moscow was able to achieve it, the Communistic standard has been planted in Spain in opposition to the Christian flag. And so we have the clash between these two civilisations which are poles apart as forms of social life. The struggle of Christ and anti-Christ has commenced on Spanish soil. It remains for the rest of the world and its rulers to take our example to heart. And let us, Spaniards, learn the hard lesson which has cost us our nearest and dearest, and has been impressed upon our minds in the midst of bloodshed and destruction."
I think I have quoted sufficiently from the Cardinal Primate's letter to convince anybody whose political and social outlook are not as red as blood, that the war in Spain is not a civil war in the ordinary meaning of the word, but that it is a war of conquest started by Russian Communism, preparatory to its general conquest of Europe, and that its initial object is the wiping out of religion altogether.
In a further letter the Cardinal Primate of Spain to the Basques said:—
"This war is fundamentally a war of love and of hatred of religion. The love of God has urged half of Spain to take up arms, even though we concede the existence also of less spiritual motives; hatred has driven the other half against God. Behold the number of camps turned into temples, the religious revival, and God's providence on the one side; and on the other thousands of priests assassinated and temples gutted, Satanic fury, and the ruthless destruction of every sign of religion. We learn that one hundred and two `Godless Russians are on their way to Spain to organise the teaching of this religious and social chaos.' "
Further, he brings it home:—
"Why do you and your partisans never raise a protest against the wholesale slaughter of priests and religious—the elite of our clergy, both in wisdom and in virtue—who have been executed and pitilessly ill-treated in Red Spain? Thousands were never taken before a tribunal, but were straight away dealt with for the only crime of being persons consecrated to God. In my own diocese out of a total of 16 groups of parishes with over 500 zealous priests, six groups have already been recovered from the Reds, and in these alone 201 priests have been murdered. Consider the thousands who have been most ignominiously assassinated in those parts of Spain which are still under Red oppression."
There is no need to paint the lily any further. Full proofs have been adduced here as to the real issues in the Spanish conflict. We have the pastorals of our own Bishops published the other day. I have copies of them all here, but I am not going to go through any of them. They have dealt with the matter, where they have dealt with it, in the same way. They have all indicated that this is a war between Christ and anti-Christ in Spain, and I do not think anybody here will attempt to deny that. Some of them have drawn attention to our trading with the Reds and some have expressed amazement as to why a Catholic Christian country like this should continue trading with Red Spain. This Bill, if it goes through, will not alter that and, contrary to what it pretends to mean, and as the President would have us and the country believe, it will continue to recognise the Red Government of Spain and refuse to recognise the Franco Government of Spain, notwithstanding the fact that in the Bill two Governments, or something representing two Governments, are recognised.
We have special trading relations with the Red Government in Spain and we have an accredited representative to the Red Government in Spain. Deputy O'Sullivan's amendment is to the effect that we should discontinue trading relations with the Red Government, and, if that amendment were accepted, the position we would be in with regard to both Governments in Spain would be one of equal recognition or equal non-recognition of both. But the President will not accept that. He wants to continue recognition of the Red Government and no recognition of the Franco Government. My amendment is the very opposite. Deputy O'Sullivan's amendment is a declaration of neutrality, and the President will not declare neutrality. He and his Party, I presume, will stand by and refuse to do what this country has been exhorted to do in the Bishops' pastorals—have no more trading relations with the Red Government in Spain. A couple of weeks ago I ascertained that a consignment of goods was going to the Red Government in Spain. I approached the Minister for Industry and Commerce. He would not see me. I wrote him a letter and published it, and he wrote back an insolent, impertinent reply, saying that he had no power or authority to interfere in this matter. I presume that he still will have no power or authority to interfere. In fact, I know that would be the case, because the position in that regard has not been modified in the least. He added to his letter that this boat was not going to the Reds in Valencia but that it was going to Gibraltar with live stock for the British fleet. That letter was written on 22nd January. On that very day the Irish Press, the Government organ, had a statement or a report or item of news——
Such details in the matter of trading would more properly be raised on the Minister's Estimate.
Well, a Chinn Comhairle, it is not so much the details. The details are immaterial, but the point I want to make here is that we have certain relations with the Red Government in Spain maintained by our Government and proposed to be maintained under this Bill, relations of which our Government are ashamed. These are relations that our Government have denied in public. I go further and say they made a false statement in public, an assertion which I propose to prove here, with your permission. Whether the boat went to Valencia or Gibraltar or anywhere else, or what it carried, is immaterial. The principle is that it was denied by the Minister that this boat was going to Red Spain. Thereby the Government, through its Minister, showed that it was ashamed to admit to this country and to the world that our Government was recognising the feeding of the Red soldiers of anti-Christ in Spain. They still propose under this Bill to do that. If my amendment is adopted that cannot be done; if Deputy O'Sullivan's amendment is adopted it cannot be done either. The Irish Press, on 22nd January last, had this item of news:—“The steam ship Clonlara, owned by the Limerick Steamship Company, Limited, was to have made her usual sailing from the North Wall, Dublin, yesterday or last night, with cattle for Valencia, but was detained by the bad weather.” Bad weather had nothing to do with it. “The Irish Press reporter was told that she would carry no food or provisions other than live stock and that she had been making similar voyages since the conclusion of the Spanish Trade Agreement early in 1935.” It was added that she “sailed in the ordinary course of trade between Spain and Ireland.” The ordinary course of trade between Dublin and the Red Government. “Spain” here means Red Spain and not any other part of Spain. The report added “That her cargoes are arranged by the Irish-Iberian Company, Dublin, which has been trading with Spain for several years.” Now the Irish-Iberian Trading Company is a pretentious name. I had a search made and I got this information. I called to see the registration officer at the Castle this morning. The only name given in connection with the Irish-Iberian Company, Dublin, was Mr. Ambrose Victor Martin, one of the most pronounced and prominent Communists in this country. His nationality is stated to be Irish. His company commenced business on 23rd December, 1936, as importers and exporters, and his private address is Kingstown House, Ballinteer Road, Dundrum, County Dublin.
The Minister for Industry and Commerce, in reply to my inquiry, said: "For your information, however, I have to inform you that the ship to which you obviously refer is sailing not to Valencia but to Gibraltar, and is conveying a number of live stock sent to the British Admiralty contractor intended to be consumed by the British Navy." That letter is dated 22nd January, and the date of the report appearing in the Irish Press that the same boat was going to Valencia was——
The Deputy, I assume, is dealing with a communication from the Minister. It should be realised by this House that Ministers are responsible to this House for statements made by them as members of the Executive Council. Neither individually nor collectively are they responsible for articles or items of news in the Irish Press or in any other paper.
I am not attributing any responsibility to the Minister for the statement appearing in the Irish Press or any other paper. I am quoting from the Minister's letter sent by himself to me, a statement relative to this boat and its destination, over his signature and sent to me on 22nd January, and on that very day that the Minister was making that statement the Irish Press had an item of news which coincided with my information. I am not saying the Minister is responsible for what appeared in the Irish Press. I am only holding the Minister responsible for what he said in the letter which he sent to me.
The Deputy's amendment calls on the Government to do something. He should deal with the Government's policy in that connection only.
Well, a Chinn Comhairle, it was the Government I really approached when I approached the Minister for Industry and Commerce.
Quite right.
The Minister was the functionary of the Government I approached. Therefore, I submit that I am in order——
In dealing with the Minister, yes, in so far as the matter is in order at all.
I was criticised or told from another source that if I wanted to get correct information I could have got it by going to the office of Mr. Martin, in Dame Street, I think it was. I was told that I could see the ship's manifest there. I did not go there. I sought information in another place and here I am quoting from the Gibraltar Chronicle and Commercial Intelligence, a paper of first-class standing in the commercial and shipping world, and it gives on the 30th January, 1937, the following boat as having arrived at Gibraltar:—“The British steamer, `Clonlara,' from Dublin and Liverpool, with eggs, biscuits and bullocks, for Valencia.” This is the very boat that the Minister for Industry and Commerce, on the 22nd January, in his letter to me, said was not going to Valencia, but was going to Gibraltar with a consignment of live stock for the British Admiralty. On the face of it, I knew that the Minister's statement was wrong. I know the buyers for the British Admiralty in the Dublin market. They are Bootman and Caplin, of Manchester, and they buy the best bullock beef. What was on this boat? Twenty-eight old bulls, and Messrs. Martin & Co. were going to get war prices for them in Valencia.
The Deputy should not take advantage of the privileges of this House to name and make allegations against citizens of this State who have no opportunity of reply. Such conduct is an abuse of the privileges of the House.
I should be very sorry to abuse any privilege I have here. I am saying nothing here that I have not said outside and these people can take whatever `action they like for what I said outside.
I am not concerned with what has been said outside. No remedy lies open to persons affected by what is said about them here.
You conveyed to me that I was taking advantage of my privileges here to do something that I would not dare to do outside.
I made no such insinuation.
Then, I misunderstood what you said. I said nothing here that I would not say outside. I have referred to a statement which was not true. How is it to be proved that it was not true? Later, when that boat came to Dublin, a member of the crew was interviewed. He said that there was no fighting along the coast of Valencia, that it was as peaceful as Dublin or Limerick. He said that they discharged their live stock and eggs at Valencia and did not hear a shot. The next day the Limerick Steamship Company came along with a contradiction. If we are to have confidence in our Ministers, if we want to be satisfied that when a public representative or any citizen asks a Minister a question, he will get an honest, truthful answer, I submit that this is a case where there should be a public inquiry.
Really the Deputy should come back to the business before the House. He will have other opportunities for arraigning the Minister, if he desires to do so.
The moral of that transaction is, I fear, that our Government, contrary to the wishes of the people, do not want to recognise General Franco. They do not want to recognise the National Government of Spain because they are sympathetic to the Red Government of Spain. I submit that that is the only reason why this amendment is not accepted by the Government. The Government and their friends are showing, and have shown, prejudice to the National Government of Spain. They have shown prejudice by hawking around people who have come to this country to blackguard the Christian Government of Spain. There has been brought to this country by Communists a certain Father Laborda, who was the chief guest of honour——
The Deputy should show more appreciation of the business before the House. The Bill before the House has nothing to do with the recognition of either Government in Spain. Two amendments are before the House, either of which makes it permissible to discuss the question of recognition or non-recognition. To debate social conditions in this country is not in order. Both amendments request the Government to take a certain course. The Deputy must confine himself to the policy of the Government as expressed by the Ministers of that Government, speaking as such. If Deputies were permitted to discuss the social and economic conditions obtaining in this State on the present occasion, the debate would be interminable and quite irrelevant.
I accept your ruling, but I submit that this Bill recognises the Red Government of Spain.
It is not for the Chair to interpret Bills.
I submit that, inasmuch as we have been recognising that Government, inasmuch as we have maintained settled trading relations with the Red Government of Spain and inasmuch as there is nothing in this Bill to terminate these relations or to recognise any other Government but the Red Government, then this Bill tacitly recognises that Red Government and proposes to continue its recognition. My amendment is intended to end that recognition and to recognise the other Government.
The Deputy should not repeat himself.
I merely wanted to explain the position since you stated that the Bill did not recognise any Government in Spain. I submitted that it did recognise the Red Government. My amendment asks for the recognition of the other Government, and I submitted, and continue to submit, that the reason our Government will not recognise the Franco Government in Spain is because our Government, contrary to the wishes of the people here, is Red-inclined. I was supporting that contention with the arguments I was adducing. I supported that contention by showing the way trade with Valentia was camouflaged by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, representing the Government. I was proceeding to show how Communist propaganda here was being aided by another Minister when you intervened. If I cannot proceed, under your ruling, to show that the Minister for Defence identified himself with the propagandists sent here in the cause of Red Spain, who have been piloted about, housed and entertained by Communists in this country, then I will desist. But I have the proof here. The Minister for Defence is photographed on the front page of the Irish Press with this clergyman. I could say something about his record if I wanted, but I shall pass on.
The Deputy would not be permitted to do so.
I am passing from it. The case has been sufficiently made now as to the issues that are being fought out in Spain. No country having sympathy with either side in Spain has entered into this pact or is about to enter into it without having made preparations to vindicate its own position. Three countries have recognised the Franco Government. I urge that the President should accept my amendment and that we should recognise the Franco Government. It is not asking much. It is only asking our Government to do what the people of this country want it to do, and to recognise the reign of Christianity against the reign of anti-Christianity. That is what has prompted this amendment of mine, and I ask the President to consider it in that spirit. Irish missionary workers the world over will feel a terrible shock when they read in the world Press that Ireland, such an intensely Christian country, has refused to recognise a Christian Government and is recognising an anti-Christian Government: not only an anti-Christian Government, but a Government that has declared war on Christianity not only in the country in which it is but that has affiliated itself with the system of destroying Christianity all over the world.
The Bill itself takes peculiar powers. The President himself drew attention to the power which the Executive Council is taking under Section 10. The section provides:
(1) The Executive Council may by order whenever they so think proper take all such measures, impose all such prohibitions and restrictions, and do all such things as shall, in the opinion of the Executive Council, be necessary or expedient to prevent the exportation from Saorstát Eireann to Spain or any Spanish territory of articles which are, in the opinion of the Executive Council, implements of war or war material."
I wonder the President did not think it worth while to schedule the items that are to be regarded as war material. He is reserving to the Executive Council the right to define anything as war material, so that anything can be prohibited from being sent to Spain. I presume there will be an exemption under the Red Cross Convention made at Geneva that certain items may be classified as Red Cross material, and, consequently, may pass through. Personally, I feel in connection with transactions in which I am interested that a lot of trouble will be caused by this section. We are sending a good deal of material to Spain, and I do not know what trouble may be put in our way. I do not know what inquisitions may be set on foot, or what restrictions may be put on sending out goods to Spain. I do not know but that the Iberian Trading Company, which is run by Communists in this country, may be given the monopoly of taking all shipping to Spain. I do not know but that the medical supplies that we are sending to Spain at the rate of £4,000 or £5,000 worth a week may have to be handed over to Ambrose Martin, that he can do with a manifest what he did a couple of weeks ago in the case of the ship that left Dublin, and that those goods may be dumped in Valencia. I do not know what guarantees we have on this, especially as we are dealing with a Minister who has shown his bias for the Reds.
Volunteers are to be stopped going to Spain, and we recognise the Government of anti-Christ in Spain. Volunteers cannot even move about in their own country. Suppose a man leaves Dublin and goes down to the Limerick Junction, if a policeman suspects that he proposes travelling to fight with the Christian army in Spain, he can arrest him and shove him into jail. He can be tried for an offence on suspicion and jailed. But Irishmen can join the Turks, the Communists in Russia, the Mexican Army and the Japanese Army if the authorities over those forces will take them, and it does not matter for what purpose, but Irishmen dare not go to Spain to fight for the cause that they believe is the cause of God in Spain. We are recognising the anti-God crowd in Spain.
Deputy MacDermot is terribly afraid that this measure will not be put through fast enough so as to keep more volunteers from going to Spain. I am sure he is perturbed whether they go or not, and that his heart bleeds at the thought that Irishmen are lying in the trenches before Madrid for God's sake. He wants this measure rushed through. I say to Deputy MacDermot that there is not a man, woman or child in the County Roscommon who would say "Up MacDermot" for that attitude, and I think I know the County Roscommon better than Deputy MacDermot. If we have representative government here, then we should have real representative government and not theorisms by people whose expressions at the moment do not reflect the opinion of people anywhere in this country. I give the President credit, even though he came into the House to rush this measure through, that he is not doing it in the way that he might have. He is not rushing it through as much as he might have, and as Deputy MacDermot urged him to do. I wish to pay that tribute to the President, though at the same time I want to say that this matter is being rushed through more than it should be.
When it comes to a division I shall be very interested to see how the representatives of higher education in the House will vote. I will be very interested to see if the representatives of Trinity College are here, and on what side they will vote. I will be equally interested to see if the representatives of the National University are here and how they will vote. The country will be interested in that, too. I think I know the Division Lobby that the Chancellor of the National University will go into when the vote is taken. Well, I have nothing to say to the Chancellor for that. He has made his case; he has stood up to it, and good luck to him. He is not camouflaging his opinion, and I think that is a tribute we should pay to the President generally.
Does the Deputy mean on this Bill?
Oh, this is going to be a long Bill—a very long Bill. The President, on a famous occasion— I do not think I was a member of the House at the time—said that the real Government of this country is outside this House. Well, I am going to tell the President, without indulging in any threat or anything of the kind, that the real decision in this matter will be taken outside this House, and if the President wants to get public opinion on this matter, I will give him the opportunity of getting it by a public demonstration in College Green.