Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 27 Oct 1937

Vol. 69 No. 5

Imposition of Duties (Confirmation of Orders) (No. 2) Bill, 1937—Committee.

Sections 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

SCHEDULE.

Mr. Dillon

I move amendment No. 1:—

To delete reference No. 2.

So far as I am aware, this is a duty imposed for the purpose of facilitating the introduction of the firm of Salts into the production of worsted yarns in Ireland. The history surrounding this problem does not begin to-day or yesterday. It goes back some time. Prior to the establishment of this State we had in the country a very good industry for the manufacture of woollen textiles, but it was common knowledge, amongst all of us handling woollen textiles, that the designs of the cloths produced by Irish woollen manufacturers were somewhat old-fashioned and, though they were eminently suited for certain branches of the trade, they made by no means a universal appeal. We were embarrassed in our export trade because with the rapidly-changing designs which became the fashion after the war, our manufacturers did not seem to be able to compete. In that situation they approached the Minister for Industry and Commerce of the previous Government and made representations that if they got a modest tariff, which would encourage them to try to capture the greater part of the Irish market for woollen textiles, they would feel justified in embarking on capital expenditure by bringing in foreign experts in design and by purchasing better spinning and finishing machinery, so as to compete with the most up-to-date mills in the world. That application was considered by the previous Government and a modest tariff, I think of 15 per cent., was granted to the woollen manufacturers.

I should say at this juncture that I am speaking without any consultation with the woollen manufacturers at all, so that in some details my version of the facts may be slightly inaccurate, because I have no brief in the matter from the woollen manufacturers themselves. I speak merely as one who is familiar with the trade for the last 15 years as a distributor of woollen textiles.

As a result of a modest tariff, immense progress was made in the Irish woollen textile business, and I think it is true to say that in 1932 the Irish woollen mills could have competed with the Scotch and English mills if there was no tariff at all. They were producing cloths of quite as good design and quite as good finish as anything that could be got anywhere in Scotland or England. They were not then able—and in my judgment they are not now able—to produce an indigo serge or a black serge with as fine a finish as you could get in Great Britain, but for all fancy suitings the Irish mills were more than a match for any competition from any part of the world, and that efficiency derived almost entirely from the modest degree of protection that they got from the Cumann na nGaedheal Government of the day. Now, I want to emphasise the words "the modest degree of protection", because they had only a comparatively low duty, and if they had not worked themselves up to a high pitch of efficiency the Scotch cloths and the English cloths would have come in over the tariff barrier, and would have been widely sold in this country. The knowledge that the tariff was so low spurred on the Irish millers to make that extra endeavour which made them produce a cloth not 15 per cent. inferior to the British cloth, not 10 per cent. inferior to the British cloth, but eventually, in my judgment, 10 per cent. to 15 per cent. better than any English cloth which has been offered.

That was the situation when the Fianna Fáil Government came into office. Then everybody started clamouring for tariffs. The Minister was exhorting everybody to go in for a fine whole-hog tariff, and this fly was cast over the Irish woollen textile manufacturers. They resisted it for some time, but then, with the rest of the industrialists of this country, they fell for the Minister's bait, and they took a very prohibitive tariff. Under that prohibitive tariff they expanded largely in the production of navy serges and black serges, in which in my judgment, they have never attained the efficiency of the British mills. They were going along quite cheerfully, raising their prices and generally having a gala time behind the high tariff wall, when they were informed by the Minister for Industry and Commerce that they must now start producing shoddy, that is, low grade woollen cloth, manufactured largely from what is known in the trade as woollen waste, for cheap ready-made clothes. The ready-made clothing industry had been stimulated in this country. The trade which used to be done in Leeds and Belfast had been established here, and they wanted supplies of this cloth called shoddy. The Irish mills, I think very wisely, said: "No. We do not want to go into the shoddy business at all. We have built up a reputation for the top quality woollen textile. Our name on any piece of goods is a guarantee that that piece of cloth is as good as it possibly can be. Now, if we go into the shoddy business, and our name becomes associated with shoddy in the minds of the buying public, it is going to do our fine cloths a much greater injury than any profit which we could make in the shoddy trade would recoup us for." They shied away from the whole proposal.

I understand that protracted negotiations went on, and in the heel of the hunt the Minister said: "Very well; I must bring in a firm who will make this shoddy cloth in Ireland." The woollen manufacturers said: "Very well. We agree to that. We do not object, on this condition: We have spent large sums of money on developing this business, and we do not want you to bring in a firm from England to compete with us in this particular trade of which we are past masters. We can produce anything you want in the high grade business. Do not deliberately bring in another firm under your protection to compete with us." I understand the Minister said that he would confine the new firm to the manufacture of the low-grade cloth which the old-established Irish firm did not wish to touch. Accordingly, after negotiations, the firm of Pepper Lee and Company was introduced and set up in this country, and they were to manufacture shoddy. They were not manufacturing shoddy for very long when they started to manufacture woollen cloth as well. There was a great fluttering in the dovecots. The old manufacturers were amazed that these new-comers were allowed to compete with them. Representations, I believe, were made to the Minister; the Minister, I believe, gave the old-established manufacturers very little satisfaction.

The next chapter in the story is that the Minister announced that now the Irish woollen textile manufacturers must buy their yarns from an Irish firm. They said that there was no Irish firm to supply them. The Minister said: "I am going to bring in Messrs. Salts (Saltaire) of Great Britain, who will manufacture these yarns for you." The Irish manufacturers said: "This is absurd. We deal with as many as 60 different firms for the different classes of yarn we require if we are to go on producing the very finest woollen textiles that can be produced in the world. No one firm or no one mill could supply us with the various qualities and classes of yarn which we must have if we are to turn out the best quality woollen textiles." These remonstrances, I understand, were ignored. They were told they would have to deal with Salts (Saltaire) and like it; if they did not like it they could lump it. There was then a flotation of Messrs. Salts (Saltaire), about the financial success of which I do not know. I suspect that the Industrial Credit Company was left with a fair share of capital, and Salts (Saltaire) arrived.

What was the astonishment of all to discover that Salts (Saltaire) had floated their capital in this market, had induced the Government agents, the Industrial Credit Company, to underwrite the issue and take up part of it; that Salts (Saltaire) had bought up Pepper Lee and Company; that Pepper Lee and Company is now the property of Salts (Saltaire), or at least that they control it; that the old-established Irish woollen mills are now obliged to compete with Pepper Lee and Company in the woollen textile business, and while competing with Pepper Lee they have to buy their yarns from Pepper Lee and Company, because Pepper Lee and Company and Salts (Saltaire) are the same firm. Pepper Lee and Company manufacture yarn and convert that yarn into cloth, but the old-established Irish industrialists must buy their yarn from Pepper Lee or Salts (Saltaire) and convert that yarn into woollen textiles, and then try to compete with Pepper Lee. Well, naturally, the old-established Irish firms feel they have a bit of grievance. Now, I take the view that most industrialists are well able to look after their own business, and I am not going to break my heart over any of them individually. But the Irish woollen industry is an industry which owes nothing to this Government. It was a prosperous exporting industry before Fianna Fáil was ever heard of. It had contributed substantially to the national exports. It had assisted in maintaining the balance of trade. It had provided good employment and had reflected great credit on the Irish industry wherever its products went all over the world.

I consider it to be a most deplorable thing that the inept and incompetent floundering of the Minister for Industry and Commerce should strike this industry a most injurious blow at a very critical time. The world is recovering. We may look forward, I think, with confidence, to a steady increase of prosperity all over the world for the next ten or 15 years. This country should get its share, and no industry in this country is better equipped to get its share of that increased purchasing power all over the world than is the Irish woollen textile industry. At this critical stage of its career it is going to get a body blow from our own Government. I think that would be a crime, not only against a body of enterprising men—a crime against a body of men who, after all, did build up their business before it became the fashion to insist on having a 75 per cent. tariff before you would venture a penny in Irish industry, a body of men who invested all they had in an Irish industry and built it up by their initiative and courage—but it is also a terrific crime against the State.

I, therefore, urge the Minister very strongly to reconsider the proposals which lie behind the imposition of this duty and (1) to see that our Irish mills have made available to them whatever worsted yarns they require or whatever woollen yarns they require in order to maintain the present high standard of their product and (2) to insist, if Messrs. Pepper Lee & Company came in here with an undertaking, explicit or implied, that they would confine themselves to the shoddy branch of the trade, that they should stick to the shoddy branch of the trade. I have no objection if a body of Irishmen choose to set up a new mill and go into the manufacture of textiles—the more competition the better—but I do object to the Government bringing in under their patronage and special protection a firm that never would have come in but that it was brought in by the Government, in order unfairly to compete with existing Irish industries.

I allege that the Minister is responsible for such a situation and it is his duty to remedy it. I say further that if the financial relationship which at present exists between Pepper Lee and Company and Salts (Saltaire) continues, it is not fair to require the Irish industrialists to buy any substantial part of their raw materials from Salts (Saltaire). Either Salts (Saltaire) or Pepper Lee and Company must become independent of each other or else the Government has no right to force existing Irish textile manufacturers into dealing with Salts (Saltaire). These are clear and explicit points and I invite the Minister to give us his version of the situation.

Mr. Lemass

Deputy Dillon commenced his remarks by saying that his information might in some respects be inaccurate. Perhaps his modesty got the better of him at that stage. I do not think he got a single fact right, either in respect of the historical matters with which he commenced his observations or the points of more immediate importance bearing on the amendment. I do not propose to go back into the past. I merely will say this, that in 1932 a change took place, to which the Deputy did not refer, and that is that we commenced in that year to manufacture our own requirements of ready-made clothing. Previous to that year a comparatively small quantity of worsted and woollen cloths were imported here, as such, but there was a huge quantity of worsted and woollen cloths imported as ready-made clothes, manufactured into such abroad.

When we developed our own ready-made clothing industry and cut out imports of these commodities, the requirements of this country in the matter of cloth increased tremendously. If the Deputy will study the trade and shipping statistics he will find that last year and the previous year the quantity of woollens and worsteds imported was considerably greater than before the new industrial policy began. It has always been our intention to manufacture not merely the clothes, but also the cloths, and not merely the cloths but also the yarns, and we have been proceeding with the fulfilment of that intention. In order, however, to get the cloths made here it was obvious a considerable extension of our woollen industry would be necessary.

The woollen industry of this country had fallen upon lean times. I do not think that any woollen manufacturer will agree that they were in the very prosperous condition that Deputy Dillon described in 1931 or 1932. They had an export trade of some dimensions, a trade which was, to some extent, interfered with by the tariff imposed by Great Britain on woollen cloth exported from this country, but it still exists and has, in fact, been growing in recent years. They had a very much smaller trade in this country than they have at the moment, but even now they are not supplying a fraction of our requirements of cloth.

If the Deputy will study the most recent volume of trade and shipping statistics he will find that in the first nine months of this year our imports exceeded 5,000,000 square yards. If we are going to get that cloth made here, there has to be a considerable expansion of production in the existing mills and the establishment of a number of new mills. The existing mills have been constructed and equipped to supply certain classes of cloth. As the Deputy mentioned, some of the woollen manufacturers are opposed on grounds of policy to manufacturing more than one class of cloth. Consequently, the production here of classes of cloth not previously made here is going to involve the establishment of new plants of probably a different character from that of the older plants which the woollen manufacturers here have operated.

The Deputy referred to shoddy. In fact, there is no shoddy being made here. Shoddy is a commodity which is required by the people of this country. It enables them to get a certain type of apparel of not very high wearing quality but of better appearance in the minds of the purchasers of it than other garments within their purchasing power, and the ready-made clothing industry is to a large extent built up on the shoddy or low-priced cloths, and the ready-made clothing industry is an important one. From the point of view of employment it is even more important than the woollen industry and it is part of the duty of the Government to ensure that the industry will be able to get the raw materials in this country. Therefore, we have been exploring the possibility of making shoddy cloths. We have not succeeded, but I hope we will succeed at some stage. It is a difficult industry to establish, because it requires a high capital investment and it also requires great skill on the part of those undertaking it.

I may say that Pepper Lee and Company were never invited and there was never a suggestion that this firm which the Deputy referred to was invited to undertake the manufacture of shoddy cloths. It was encouraged by us to undertake, and is beginning to produce, certain classes of women's dress materials and men's clothing, materials of a lighter weight than the existing manufacturers produce. I doubt if even the activities of Pepper Lee will be sufficient to meet the whole of our requirements in the class of cloth in which they are engaged and which the existing manufacturers were not producing except to a very limited extent.

The Deputy said that the woollen manufacturers were amazed to find that this firm was going to compete with them. I do not think it can be an amazing matter to the woollen manufacturers at all. Even if it were, I cannot understand the amazement which the Deputy attributes to the woollen manufacturers, because this is essentially a Saorstát firm and two-thirds of its voting property is held by Saorstát nationals. This firm is entitled, under the law, to manufacture in this country anything from a needle to a battleship. There is no power in the Government to prevent the firm giving effect to its intention to engage in the production of these dress cloths which previously were entirely imported, which are still being imported and which will continue to be imported until this firm has increased its production. There is no direct bearing on this by the subject matter of the Deputy's amendment which relates to woollen and worsted yarns and to certain classes of woollens and worsted yarns that have been produced here already. Indeed, these yarns had been produced for a number of years but in previous years there was a very considerable import of the yarns required by the hosiery factories and the woollen and worsted mills.

According to our general policy we have been endeavouring to interest people in this country in the manufacture of these yarns. It was with the advent of this company to Tullamore that the question came to be considered by the Government. On very many occasions since 1932 I and the officers of my Department have had discussions with individual woollen manufacturers and other parties who are interested in the establishment here of a plant for the production of these yarns. We were assured by some of these people that it was not an economic proposition, but we persisted in our efforts, and a company was formed to establish a plant here. It is quite true that there is some association between that company and the Pepper Lee Company. But I have again to say that it is a national undertaking and it is entitled to engage in the manufacture of these yarns. It is entitled to engage in the manufacture of these yarns even if the Government wished to prevent them. This is an important industry which we have been trying for a number of years to develop, and I am very glad that our efforts have been successful. It is proved now beyond all question that this industry is capable of being established here upon an economic basis. In any event it is going to produce and sell these woollen and worsted yarns at the same price as that at which they have been sold in Great Britain. If we can get the factory here to work at the same cost as similar factories are being operated in Great Britain, we can regard it as reasonably efficient and economic. It may well be that there will be some fluctuations in labour costs here. It may be that some considerations affecting the selling price here which do not operate in Great Britain may arise here, but subject to the conditions being the same, the price here will be the same. There will be no difficulty in regard to woollen manufacturers and others getting these yarns in adequate quantities and at the same price as that at which they are getting them in England. If there is any difficulty at all in procuring the particular classes here, that difficulty will be met by importation.

The factory is now being constructed. It is estimated that it will be 18 months from the start of production here before full production will be reached. At that stage it is estimated that some 700 people will be employed in the production of these yarns in Tullamore. That is a matter of very considerable importance to that district, and the establishment of the factory there will be of considerable advantage to the town. I do not think we should jeopardise that possibility by some purely theoretical objections. We have got from the company a binding undertaking that its products will be sold to all manufacturers on the same terms, and that no one manufacturer will have an advantage in price over another. I can give the House an assurance, so far as I am concerned, that if that undertaking is not carried out, the protection given to the industry will be removed. But I and my Department have no reason to believe that that assurance will not be carried out.

The establishment of this factory is not going to interfere in any way with the development of our woollen mills. We wish to see that the export trade which our woollen mills are doing will be maintained. That export trade has been showing some tendency recently to increase in consequence of developments in markets to which they had not previously exported their goods. In any event the establishment of the yarns plant at Tullamore will not interfere with that development. There is a market available for them the size of which is represented by the figures I quote. For the first nine months of this year the imports of these yarns were 5,000,000 square yards. Last year these imports were, for the whole year, 7,000,000 square yards. These are all a class of cloth which the woollen manufacturers here do not produce, but they also include cloths which they can produce.

The Deputy represented the woollen manufacturers as having been seduced by me into accepting protection. I would like to take this opportunity of dealing with the representations made to me that the woollen manufacturers have not got enough protection. We have an import duty upon these cloths. Now in addition to the import duty there are various restrictions imposed under the Control of Manufacturers Act. Certain quantities of cloth of different values are allowed in under licence during the course of the year. The representations I am getting from the woollen manufacturers are that we are letting in too much cloth and that we should more seriously restrict the imports so as to compel the ready-made clothing people to get their requirements supplied to them from the Irish mills. From the day that I became Minister for Industry and Commerce I must say that there is no question which caused me personally more trouble than the question of reconciling the conflicting interests of the clothing manufacturers with the conflicting interests of the woollen manufacturers. We have had many consultations with the representatives of both parties, and we have had general consultations with other Departments as to what should be the reasonable measure of protection for the woollen companies. The woollen manufacturers think we should impose more restrictions on imports. I am told that certain mills are in a precarious position and may have to cease operations unless a greater volume of business is secured for them. That may or may not be the case, but I want to point out that the market which we have made available in this country in consequence of our restrictions on imports represents a larger production than anything they ever achieved. If they fill that market they will have reached a new record in total production. In these circumstances it is difficult to say how it can be contended that the volume of imports is detrimental to the interests of the woollen manufacturers or how it is jeopardising in any way the outlook of the woollen mills. Some of the woollen mills may disappear. A great many of them are old and have inefficient equipment——

Mr. Dillon

You cannot have omelettes without breaking eggs.

Mr. Lemass

——and they cannot be expected to get their best results unless modernised. Some of the more enterprising companies—I am sure it is not necessary to name them, because Deputies become familiar with their names every time they buy a suit— have taken full advantage of the position created by Government policy and have extended their production enormously, developing into new lines and installing the most up-to-date equipment to enable them to produce efficiently and sell at the lowest price compatible with a reasonable profit. I think the Government will have done its duty if it secures the possibility of progressive development to the woollen manufacturers. We have done that, although it has been frequently represented to us by clothing manufacturers that we have left them short of supplies. It has been represented to us that, particularly in connection with the women's dress end of the trade, some concerns have been obliged to close down because of their inability to get the cloth they required. It is, undoubtedly, true that, in the production of dress materials, we were lacking. In consequence of the methods of operation under the Control of Imports Act, it was not always possible to distinguish between one class of cloth and another, and, when a person had a licence given him to import cloth because of the need for dress materials, he might well use that licence to import worsteds or serges which he could have got equally well from the Irish mills.

Mr. Dillon

What they used to do with the flour licences in the good old days.

Mr. Lemass

We endeavoured to deal with that situation by the new powers we got under an amendment of the Control of Imports Act and also by altering the method of control—by having, instead of one quota order, two quota orders. We have now separate quotas for cloth under 2/- and for cloth over 2/- per yard. In fact, the licences issued under the second quota order may not be used for cloth over 3/6 per yard. There is, therefore, a closer attempt to regulate imports in accordance with our needs, while securing for the clothing manufacturers the cloths they must get to keep going. We are in that way providing an ever-increasing market for the woollen manufacturers. We are doing all we can to secure progressive development of the two industries simultaneously.

We are getting, in relation to this particular group, to the third stage of development—the production of the yarns used by the mills. We can get these materials manufactured on an economic basis, and I think this firm at Tullamore is a satisfactory firm to be entrusted with that work. I think they will do well and that a lot of the fears voiced by the woollen and hosiery manufacturers will completely disappear. Perhaps at a later stage we shall consider the making of these yarns from Irish wool. Then we may have Deputy Dillon voicing a complaint on behalf of Salts (Saltaire) that some limitation is being placed on their liberty and that they are not being allowed to buy their wool where they like. When we have got to that stage we shall have completed the job. We may never get to that stage, but we can get to the stage of producing the yarns. That is what this duty is intended to secure, and I recommend it to the House.

Mr. Dillon

After telling the House that all my facts were inaccurate, the Minister proceeded to confirm every statement I made. He was completely unable to contradict a syllable of what I said. He is now going to grow Botany wool in County Wexford. When he undertakes that task, I suggest that he invite the assistance of Deputy Allen, who can grow Manitoba No. 1 wheat in Wexford. He should have no difficulty in producing Botany wool there as well. I ask members to note the words of the Minister that "some old mills may have to go."

Mr. Lemass

I did not say that.

Mr. Dillon

Most certainly, you did.

Mr. Lemass

I said that they might have to be modernised.

Mr. Dillon

"Some old mills may have to go." Those were the words of the Minister. I invite the special attention of Deputy Corry, who represents Cork, to that observation. Some of the oldest woollen mills in Ireland are situate in Cork.

Mr. Lemass

And some of the best.

Mr. Dillon

The member for Athlone is not here or I should ask him to take note of that observation. I see Deputy Brady here. He represents a Dublin division. I hope he will make a note of the Minister's observation.

Mr. Brady

Not as you represent it.

Mr. Dillon

These words were spoken and that is what the Minister means. This duty is a deliberate death-warrant for some of our old Irish mills for the purpose of making room for Pepper Lee and the likes of them. Any fly-by-night from Czechoslovakia, Great Britain or Yugoslavia can come here, provided he has got a name you cannot get your mouth round, and he will be nurtured and cherished by this Government, to the detriment and the ultimate destruction of people who were engaged in industry in this country before de Valera was heard of. We are asked to pass sentence of death on these old industries which are worth more to this country than all the new industries, established by gentlemen with unpronounceable names, put together.

We are told that some ready-made clothing manufacturers complained, particularly, that they could not get materials for ladies' clothes. I should like to have a list of the manufacturers of ladies' clothes in this country. I should like to get their names and I should like the Minister to try to pronounce them. He would choke before he would get through the list. These gentlemen are to come in here and condemn our well-established industries to destruction because they cannot get supplies of cloth to make ladies' clothes. Let me now be put on record as saying publicly that, as between the woollen textile industry and the women's clothing industry, the women's clothing industry does not count for a snap of the fingers. It is a machine-run, fly-by-night business which will never get any hold in this country. Of its nature, it could never prosper in this country because the market here is far too small to sustain it.

Mr. Lemass

If you have no clothing industry here, to whom are the woollen mills going to sell their cloth?

Mr. Dillon

Not one of these mills makes a yard of cloth for the women's ready-made clothing trade. Pepper Lee is brought in, on his own admission, to engage in that industry. The women's clothing trade is, as everybody knows, a fashion trade. Women's clothes change with the season. What they were wearing in 1930 could not possibly be sold in 1932. I know— because I am selling the clothes. If the stock I bought in 1935 is on my shelf to-day, I may write it out of stock and give it away; it is no good. The women's clothes which were on my shelf in 1932 can be given away in 1934. You could not sell them. Nobody would buy them. Any man —much less a perceptive woman—who looked at a woman's coat of 1932 being worn in 1935 would simply laugh. He could not conceive of a woman wearing it, from the fashion point of view. It is a rapidly-changing trade for which you must have an immense market so that the goods will pass quickly into consumption and you will be able to clear your shelves so as to make room for new stock. The same is true of the materials that go into these garments and you can never establish a satisfactory industry for the supply of cloth suitable for manufacture into women's ready-made clothes. It is ridiculous to jeopardise the whole woollen textile business to try to secure that. Of course the Irish woollen textile business was mainly designed for the manufacture of cloth to be used in making men's clothes. It is a very valuable industry, and it is one of the only industries in which we were able to build up a substantial export trade in the face of world competition.

The Minister says that when Salts (Saltaire) are established in Tullamore, this firm will have the same costings, etc., as in England, and will give an undertaking to that effect. But he goes on to say that certain circumstances may result in making it impossible for the Irish woollen textile manufacturers to get their yarns at the same price as that at which they used to get them from Great Britain. How, in the name of heaven, can we maintain an export trade in woollen textiles if you are going to increase the price of all the yarns which the woollen textile manufacturers have to use in their manufacturing? You have got to make up your minds to this: Are you going to destroy the export trade which our Irish woollen mills have? If you are, I warn you that the words used by the Minister: "Some of the old mills may have to go," will come true much sooner than you people anticipate. You will ruin most of the old mills in this country if you destroy their export trade, and it is ludicrous for the Minister to suggest that he has anything to offer them in the home market to compensate them for the loss of that external trade.

We are to get guarantees from Salts (Saltaire) that they will not charge any more for their goods. Did we not get guarantees from the Westport Thread Company that they would not increase their prices, and they were not three weeks in this country until they were charging more for sewing cotton and all the threads they were selling to manufacturers? I now allege that the Westport Thread Company is charging the manufacturers of this country over 74/- per dozen lbs. for thread which they have to use and which could be got in Great Britain at present for 56/-, and I say that conclusive proof of that is at present in the hands of the Minister for Industry and Commerce. I say that the two threads were sent to Great Britain——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This does not arise on this amendment.

Mr. Cosgrave

There were guarantees in both cases.

Mr. Dillon

I am told that one of the justifications for bringing Salts (Saltaire) in here is that the Minister has a guarantee that they will not charge more.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I allowed the Deputy to proceed to indicate that the guarantee was no protection, but to proceed to deal with another firm——

Mr. Dillon

I do not want to deal with that firm except to say that the Minister is in possession of certain facts, and those facts include the submission of samples of thread, because the Minister is going to say that the quality was better although the price was higher. I now want to point out that the Minister is in possession of evidence as to a test conducted to prove the quality of the two samples of thread. It was proved satisfactorily that the English sample of 56/- was better quality than the other, although the other was over 74/-. That illustrates the value of such guarantees. Of course, the Minister is in this cleft stick: what can he do to the Westport company? If he goes to them and says, "You must fulfil your guarantee," they will say, "We will not; what are you going to do about it?" The Minister will then say, "I am going to close your mill." But he dare not close their mill. They would eat him. President de Valera depends for a large part of his support on West Mayo, and if the Minister dared close the mill in Westport there would be an outcry.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We will leave Westport and get back to the amendment.

Mr. Dillon

Surely I am entitled to draw my analogy?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is not drawing an analogy to deal with the Westport firm.

Mr. Dillon

I am going to draw an analogy between Westport and Tullamore. I say that the reason the Minister cannot enforce the Tullamore guarantee is that if, when that factory is operating, he went to enforce his agreement, the only method he has for doing so is to close the factory or, as he says himself, take off the protection, which means closing the factory. He dare not do it and he will not dare to do it once the factory is established there. The Minister may reply: "I will dare." I say: "I dare you to do it in Westport now." He admits that he got a similar guarantee in that case and that the guarantee has been reneged. I sympathise with him, but it would be politically impossible for him to do it, and he will not do it. Those guarantees are not worth the paper they are written on because they are quite unenforceable.

The Minister says that the woollen trade in 1931 had a certain export trade. A certain export trade! Apart from agricultural produce, I think our exports of woollen goods was one of the largest industrial exports we had in 1931.

Mr. Lemass

About 500,000 square yards.

Mr. Dillon

I suppose one would include Guinness's in industrial exports and that, of course, is infinitely greater, but the woollen export was one of our best industrial exports, and it was an export that was growing. In 1931, there was a time of universal world depression, and even at that time of universal world depression, we were able to get our stuff in to the tune of 500,000 square yards. At that time of catastrophic depression, when world trade had dropped to about 36 per cent. of what it was before the depression, we were still sending that quantity out. Now the world is booming up and at that moment we are going to paralyse and strangle this export business. The moment when our adverse trade balance is shooting up to the sky is the moment we pick to harass and balk this export business which, until the economic war started, stood in need of no export bounty and no assistance at all from the Government. Is it not absolutely suicidal?

Let me repeat that I am not here as the champion of any individual woollen manufacturer. They are able to look after themselves. I am here fighting for the employment of craftsmen who have been in the woollen mills all their lives long. Some of the finest craftsmen we have are men who work in the Irish woollen mills and I am fighting for an industry that stood on its own legs, made its own way and brought credit to the country. I am fighting for a visible export of which this country stands at present in the most urgent need. I say that these craftsmen will be unemployed when certain of the old mills have to go. Their craftsmen will go with them. I say that if this scheme is continued Pepper, Lee and Co. will eventually dominate the woollen textile business of this country and I say that in order to suit Salts (Saltaire), we are going to strike a deadly blow at the Irish woollen textile industry from which it may never recover. God knows why the Minister wants to do it. Heaven alone knows how his Party can possibly follow him into the lobby to do it, because I suppose they will. I would, however, say this last word: for heaven's sake, remember that you can run riot for a long time and trust to God that those who come after you will clean up the mess, but there are certain types of damage, and if you do them now, nobody will be able to repair them and no combination of people will be able to repair them. Do not destroy this old-established industry in the hope that something else will come out of the hat to take its place. If you destroy this industry, there will be nothing comparable in value to take its place. It is one of the few old-established native crafts of this country, and there are very few.

I urge the Minister most strongly to take whatever steps may be necessary to mend his hand in this matter and to restrict Salts (Saltaire), if necessary, to the manufacture of knitting yarns and compensate the knitting-yarn industries existing at present. No matter what you let Salts (Saltaire) do, they are going to do damage, but I think it would be easier, reasonably, to compensate Messrs. O'Mahony and Company who are the principal established knitting yarn manufacturers here, than to compensate the entire woollen textile industry. I should be long sorry to see Salts (Saltaire) take the place of Messrs. O'Mahony in Irish textile manufacture, but if I have to choose between two evils, I choose the lesser. It would be possible to find the money requisite to compensate Messrs. O'Mahony for destroying their business. This proposal is going to destroy somebody's business and I would sooner destroy the lesser than the greater. Best of all, review the whole position, and tell Salts (Saltaire) that they cannot come, that the dominant interests of the country demand that the old sources of supply should still be available. That is really what ought to be done. It is not too late yet. It should be done now. If you go on with this plan you are going to bring chaos into the textile industry and, in the long run, some of the old mills will have to go. When we come to identifying the old mills we will then find that they are gone, and that Pepper Lee are supplying all our needs.

Mr. Corry

As one who represents a constituency which has within it over 41 per cent. of the total wool manufactured in the Free State, I should like to deal with some of Deputy Dillon's arguments. The Deputy told us that the woollen manufacturers were flourishing before 1932. While that may be so, the fact remains that they are employing three times as many hands in my constituency now as in 1932. Messrs. O'Mahony of the Blarney Mills have three times as many employed now as in 1932, and other woollen manufacturers are in the same position. It is now close on two years since I took up this question of imported yarn. I took it up then on the application of the workers. They pointed out to me that far more yarn was being imported than previously, and that instead of expanding the yarn trade side, as they were expanding their business generally, the manufacturers were depending altogether on imported yarn. I attended three meetings of the woollen manufacturers of the county held in Cork and I pointed to these imports. I said that someone would start to manufacture yarns here, and that I considered as they were the people definitely interested, it was their duty to do so. I also stated that I wanted to see the industry started in my constituency, and that I was prepared to help on that account. Some of them assured me that if there was a tariff on yarns they would expand that side of the business, that they would, as in the past, go back to the spinning of their own yarn. Others took up the line that they could not afford to do so. The result was that they did not start. If they were not prepared to do so and continued to import yarn worth hundreds of thousands of pounds, which was manufactured by foreigners, while the work could be done here by Irish labour, and some of the unemployed, about which Deputy Dillon wept salt tears from time to time, given work, in my opinion we were doing a good day's work in taking this step.

Salts (Saltaire) were not invited here until the present woollen manufacturers had had an opportunity of starting. I vouch for that. If they were not prepared to start it was their own look out. We are endeavouring by every means in our power to find employment for our people. According to the Minister's statement there is employment for 700 people here in the yarn-spinning industry. If there is employment for 700 people, and if in the past that employment went to foreigners, it is our duty to keep that employment at home. It was my duty, if I could, to get the industry for my constituency. I interviewed those in the business and asked them to do their part and, if they did not, that is their look out. Deputy Dillon is not concerned about them. He pretends to weep because some firm in Tullamore is going to produce yarns. Deputy Dillon is weeping for the manufacturers that use the yarn. But that is not his trouble. His trouble is that people across the water are going to be deprived of the opportunity of sending yarn worth from £100,000 to £200,000 here. That is the only thing that has troubled Deputy Dillon as long as I know him in this House. Day after day and week after week the Deputy talks about the poor woollen manufacturers and about the poor people who have to get bread. But that is not Deputy Dillon's trouble. His trouble is that foreigners are being deprived of a market for yarn worth nearly £200,000, and for the 700 Englishmen who produce yarn for the Irish natives, as I heard them described by a gentleman belonging to Deputy Dillon's profession, at a recent housing enquiry.

In regard to Pepper, Lee the story is different. It is a story that I should like the Minister seriously to consider. I have read the whole story told by the woollen manufacturers since the case of Pepper, Lee was first considered by the Minister, and I say there was a distinct understanding that they were not going to go into the manufacture of cloths that were already being manufactured by woollen manufacturers here. That was definite. Therefore, if Pepper, Lee start to produce cloths that are at present manufactured here, or that were manufactured here in the past, they are committing a breach of the agreement and should be prevented from doing so. I hold that Pepper, Lee came here on a distinct understanding that they would not produce cloths that were being produced by existing woollen manufacturers. They came on that understanding. That is what I read into the statement of the Minister and the Department. If that definite understanding is being departed from, I say that Pepper, Lee should be prevented from doing so. There is undoubtedly scope for Pepper Lee in the manufacture of these cloths here in view of the imports of cloth. These imports came in camouflaged as cloths not produced here and they were put into competition with Irish cloths. I tell the Minister that it is impossible for the Customs officials, no matter how they watch imports, to prevent large quantities of such cloths being imported under licences or under quota, free of duty, to go into competition with cloths produced here. For that reason I welcome Pepper, Lee coming here to produce cloths that were previously brought in in that way, but I decidedly object to Pepper, Lee coming in, after giving a definite undertaking that they would not produce cloths that are already being manufactured here, and then departing from that undertaking. That is a very definite objection. I say that the woollen manufacturers have a definite grievance if that is going to be allowed to be done.

Deputy Dillon talked a lot about yarn. Deputy Dillon's concern in this is all a yarn. Since I have known him as a member of this House his sole concern is not for the Irish manufacturer. I have never seen him show any concern for the Irish manufacturer, whether the miller or the woollen manufacturer. The Deputy's one concern is that we are now going to produce here yarn that we have been importing from the foreigner, and that 700 Englishmen are going to be deprived of employment. That is Deputy Dillon's trouble: that he will no longer be able to stand up here in the House and say that there are so many unemployed on the dole in Tullamore. He is not very much troubled with the woollen manufacturers in this matter. He started off by telling us about the happy time that the woollen manufacturers were having and of the profits they were getting out of the tariffs. He then went on to object because the woollen manufacturers will in future have to buy the yarn produced in this country or else go back to the position which they were in before, of making their own yarn. I know that the majority of the woollen manufacturers in Cork are enterprising enough to go ahead and make all their own yarn.

This matter of the setting up of a yarn-spinning industry is perhaps one on which some members of the House may not be fully informed, but, as I said before, more than two years have passed since I called at least three meetings of the woollen manufacturers in Cork and pointed out to them that this market was there: that those imports were coming in, that somebody would start, and that, in my opinion, it was up to them to make a start. I further pointed out to them that if they did not take advantage of the position that existed it would be their own look out. I for one would prefer to see them buying the yarn from Salts (Saltaire) in Tullamore than importing it from outside, as they are doing at present, and thereby help to keep 700 people in employment in Tullamore. Deputy Dillon, of course, would be delighted to be able to point out to us that those 700 people had to go to England to look for employment. They will not now have to go to England to look for employment or to Kirkintilloch to pick potatoes.

Mr. Cosgrave

On the Second Reading of this Bill the Minister contented himself with saying that this matter could be discussed on the Committee Stage. For the information of those members of the House who were not here at the time of the passing of the Emergency (Imposition of Duties) Act, I may say that at the present moment or at any time—even during a general election, as happened this year—the Executive Council can summon a meeting and impose duties, tariffs, or anything else that they like in connection with the importation of goods. This particular duty that we are now considering was imposed on the 11th June, and since that date a company has been floated. The name of it is Salts (Saltaire). I recollect seeing a copy of its prospectus, and, if my recollection is not at fault, while there are a number of Irish directors on it, I do not think that one of them had any contact whatever with this particular line of business. As well as I recollect, they were not in the woollen business at all. With regard to the position of some industries in the constituency that has returned me, I know that there is grave apprehension amongst those who put their money into business before any duties were imposed in this country in order to help industry. They are very much concerned with this particular tariff that we are dealing with because they were themselves considering and were, I believe, in contact with the Minister concerning the establishment of a factory to manufacture yarn.

It would be well for members of the House, and particularly for those who were not in the last Dáil, to realise what the position is that we are presented with. The Executive Council puts a tariff on certain yarn. A number of people come together and decide to float a company. I forget what the capital of this company is, but as well as I recollect it is something about £200,000. Does the Minister disagree with that figure?

Mr. Lemass

£250,000.

Mr. Cosgrave

The Executive Council meets in June and fixes this tariff. Parliament is summoned to discuss this on the 25th October and is presented with a fait accompli. Quite a number of the members of the Party opposite might, if it had not been for the circumstances that I have outlined, have asked for the postponement of this. The speech that we have just listened to, when stripped of all its nonsense, was one in favour of the firm of Pepper Lee. I may say that I had never heard of it until I heard Deputy Dillon refer to it, but Deputy Corry seems to be concerned about it. My information, for what it is worth is, that Salts (Saltaire) have bought out or acquired the property or rights of Messrs. Pepper Lee. I do not know whether that is true or not.

Mr. Lemass

Deputy Dillon misled the Deputy.

Mr. Dillon

They have control of Pepper Lee.

Mr. Cosgrave

If they have control of it, it scarcely matters whom it belongs to. Deputy Corry, however, raised a very nice point, and that is where we stand with regard to all these guarantees of one sort and another. To tell members of this Dáil that if the price or other conditions that they have got are not strictly adhered to the tariff will be withdrawn, is a class of undertaking that I do not put any reliance on. One may vary the conditions that have been imposed to the extent of 5, 10 or 15 per cent., but you would have to reach a very big point before the Minister would come in here and ask the Dáil to reduce the 33? per cent. tariff that has been imposed here by, let us say, half that or even more.

This is very bad business in every sense of the word. The Dáil is being jumped, and, while there might have been an excuse for it in the special circumstances in which the Imposition of Duties Bill was introduced, there is no excuse for it in this case. The Minister certainly treated the House with supreme contempt when, on the Second Reading of the Bill, he said that any matters members wanted to raise could be raised on the Committee Stage. We are presented with this measure and a Schedule. I wonder if the new members of the House have got all these orders? I think they are entitled to an explanation as to what this means. In the normal course, before an Imposition of Duties Bill would come into operation the Minister for Finance, when introducing it, would be expected to give a most detailed explanation. There would not have been any previous commitments on the part of the Government in connection with the factory to be established. We are told that there is employment for 700 people in Tullamore. We always get a rosy picture. Assume that the number is 700; if this is going to endanger the employment of other people in Cork, Dublin, Athlone, or in any other part of the country, it is no great asset.

We cannot ignore one thing, and that is that woollen manufacturers, I suppose, have at the present moment a tariff, and so have hosiery manufacturers—but they have a tariff based upon the fact that they can import goods of the quality and price that they know and that, so far as the consumer is concerned, there is a certain possible increase in the price. It is negligible in connection with some of the articles that are produced, but now this particular prospectus in question has on its face the fact that they have a 33? per cent. tariff. You can draw your own conclusions from that. To my mind, the most dangerous item in this proposition is whether or not those engaged in the manufacture either of hosiery or woollens are going to get the quality of goods to which they are accustomed, and it has been put to me that those returns, however explanatory they may be in certain respects, may go down on the particular description of certain yarns, and that it is quite possible that there is a complete mistake in connection with two different sorts of yarns that have been imported.

Mr. Dowdall

I am not going to deal with the method of putting on this tariff on the yarns. I am more interested in the question of Pepper Lee and what they are doing to compete with other manufacturers in this country who— some of them—have been engaged in the industry for, perhaps, a hundred odd years. The industry itself, certainly, has been in the hands of Irish people in this country for hundreds of years. Under what terms Pepper Lee came in here and what were the conditions of the concession they got, I do not know, but it seems to me that they did get a concession and I am given to understand by the people in the trade that Pepper Lee are now about to compete with them in manufacturing the cloths we have been in the habit of getting from Irish manufacturers up to the present.

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear!

Mr. Dowdall

I think it is not quite right for the Minister or for the Government to empower, or to give an opportunity to, a better equipped firm, such as Pepper Lee undoubtedly is bound to be, to compete with Irish manufacturers who have already supplied the trade and supplied it very well. Certainly, these firms will have a very hard time to make ends meet in that case. I have been in communication with the Minister in this connection for quite some time——

Mr. Dillon

The cats are coming out of the bag now.

Mr. Dowdall

——perhaps with not as much satisfaction as we would like to get; but the point I want to make is that the woollen manufacturers already established in the Free State, apart from Pepper Lee, are capable of supplying the total requirements of the particular class of cloth, whether worsted or woollens, that we have in our suits in this country, and that if that is so there is no reason whatever why Pepper Lee should be allowed to come in here, with their more efficient machinery, to compete with the trade here. Then, there is also the question of employment. I understand that, in the case of Pepper Lee, with their more efficient machinery, they can employ one girl to six looms, whereas in most Irish firms we have to employ one girl to one loom. We know that the object of the Government, and particularly the Minister for Industry and Commerce, is to provide employment. Well, if it is a case of one girl to six looms as against six girls to six looms, you are certainly not assisting employment.

I am not making any criticism of the Government in this matter at all. They are animated by the best intentions and they want to do the best they can for the Irish people, but Pepper Lee have come in here and got a certain concession to make certain cloths. As I have stated already, the trade in itself is quite sufficiently capable of supplying all the ordinary cloths we want, but we are not able to supply the ladies' tissues or light cloths for ladies' dresses. Now, there are three or four million yards of that material required in the year. The ordinary manufacturers who have been catering for men's wear have no objection at all to the Pepper Lee people being allowed to do all they can in that line of light cloths for ladies' dresses, and I would appeal to the Minister, in view of the fact that Pepper Lee have got some sort of concession, to try to induce Pepper Lee to stick to the production of ladies' tissues or cloths and to leave the rest to the ordinary manufacturers who have been manufacturing woollens already. At present I understand that the latter are only employed to the extent of 60 per cent., and that it is likely to be less. They will certainly be employed to a much lesser extent if Pepper Lee are allowed to compete with them. In fact, there is no doubt that several of them will go to the wall. I do not think that that is a state of affairs that the Minister or anybody else can view with equanimity. I would appeal strongly, therefore, to the Minister to ask Pepper Lee to confine themselves to ladies' tissues for which there is a market which cannot be supplied here. If the Minister will do that, the woollen manufacturers will be satisfied, and so shall I.

Mr. Lemass rose.

Mr. Anthony

Before the Minister replies——

Mr. Lemass

I am not replying.

Mr. Anthony

I just want to ask the Minister a question in regard to the yarns. I would not intervene except for the speech made by Deputy Corry, but I think that Deputy Corry is under a misconception in that respect. The Minister must be aware that most of the yarns that entered into your Irish tweeds and so on were imported from Belgium and France. That was a very unhappy state of affairs, and, like Deputy Corry, I also endeavoured to induce many of the mills to spin their own yarns, but I was informed that there were a lot of difficulties in the way. I do not want to take up too much time on this matter, but I should like to ask the Minister whether or not it is a fact that a certain well-established firm operating in Cork City —a firm that is very well known in this country and outside it—offered to undertake the manufacture of yarns in this country.

Mr. Lemass

When?

Mr. Anthony

Is it a fact that they offered to do so?

Mr. Lemass

When are they supposed to have offered to do it?

Mr. Anthony

I am asking the Minister, is it a fact that a well-known firm in Cork City offered to undertake the manufacture of yarns in this country? The name of the firm to which I am referring is Sunbeam-Wolsey (Dwyer's). Is that a fact?

Mr. Lemass

I propose, Sir, to intervene at this stage and say what I have to say and leave it at that.

Mr. Dillon

Oh!

Mr. Lemass

Deputy Cosgrave, in his speech, was rather skilful in dealing with this matter, and said that I had treated the Dáil with contempt when this Bill was before the House on Second Reading when I said that I regarded the Second Stage as a mere formality and suggested that these matters should be raised on the Committee Stage. I adhere to that. I think that it is much better that the various items covered by the Schedule of this Bill should be discussed in Committee separately, and, in saying that, there was no desire on my part to treat the Dáil with contempt. I think it is obvious that these matters would be much better discussed in Committee. I do not say that it is a point in support of my contention that it gives Deputies the right to speak more than once. As a matter of fact, Deputy Dillon has spoken more than twice on this matter, and I should like to bet my bottom dollar that we will hear from him again, and again, and yet again.

Deputy Cosgrave also said that the House was being jumped. I am not sure what he meant by that, but he tried to imply that we were presenting the House with a fait accompli and that the House had no alternative but to accept it. That is not the position. The Dáil in its wisdom decided to give the Government certain powers which the Government considered necessary for the implementation of their industrial policy, including power to impose duties by Order, subject to subsequent satification. The Dáil is not bound to this or any other duty. It is at complete liberty to reject the Bill or to adopt Deputy Dillon's amendment if it is prepared to take the consequences. So far as the Dáil is concerned, there is no commitment, and any interested industry in this country will have no legitimate reason for seeking redress if the Dáil decides by a majority vote to reject the Government's proposal and repeal this duty. So much for what Deputy Cosgrave said.

There has been a lot of talk about Pepper Lee and Company. It is not quite relevant to this particular amendment of Deputy Dillon, but it is just as well to clear it up. It is quite obvious that Deputy Dowdall has been misinformed by some people in this connection, and I am anxious particularly that he should have the facts right. I have no expectation of being able to get Deputy Dillon to see the facts right. Deputy Dowdall is a reasonable man, and when he sees a reasonable case he accepts it. There is a market in this country for dress materials, light-weight cloths, used in ladies' dresses and for men's suitings. These cloths have not been made by existing woollen manufacturers except to a small extent. There are various alternative courses open to us. We can continue to import these cloths. That is a policy which does not appeal to me and, I am sure, does not appeal to woollen manufacturers. We can do what, I think, some woollen manufacturers would like us to do, and that is to say to the general body of the public: "You are not going to get the cloth you want; you are going to be compelled to use the cloth we are prepared to give." I do not think that is a reasonable attitude, and I am not prepared to support it. We can endeavour to get the cloths made here. We would much prefer to see these cloths made by the older established woollen manufacturing firms here. We have been trying for five years to get them to extend their production on these lines. How long should we wait before trying to interest new concerns in the possibility of the market for them? Anyway, we got a proposition from Pepper Lee and Company. They are a British firm, but they proposed to associate themselves with a company to be formed here—a company which would comply in every way with the requirements of the law here, and which would be entitled, and is entitled, to operate here without a licence in any industry.

It has been suggested by Deputy Corry and Deputy Dowdall that various things should be done to prevent Pepper Lee and Company from doing something or another. I have no power to prevent them from doing anything. So far as the law is concerned, they are a Saorstát company and are entitled to enjoy all the advantages of any Saorstát company operating here. It is quite true that that particular company were encouraged and facilitated to establish a factory at Portlaoighise on the understanding that they were going to concentrate on the production of these dress materials and light-weight cloths. That is what they are doing. I do not know from what source the rumours that the company are going into other lines of production may have originated, but, so far as I know, there is no truth in them. The firm have equipped themselves with a type of machinery only capable of being efficiently used for the production of these light-weight cloths, and they are proceeding with their intention of doing so. They are working on a two-shift system, subject to certain conditions, which they have accepted, as to the hours of work and the employment of men as weavers in preference to women. They have a number of women employed at present who were trained in Bradford, and the arrangement with the firm permits of the continued employment of these women, but subsequent recruitment of weavers will be from men only. That is so far as Pepper Lee and Company are concerned. I am anxióus to get that point cleared up.

So far as I can see, it will be necessary to get a number of other new firms established in this industry if the full requirements of woollen and worsted cloths of all kinds are going to be produced here. I would much prefer to see the existing woollen manufacturers getting ahead and doing it. I have pleaded with them and begged and bullied them. I have offered them all forms of inducement, including the inducement of guaranteed loans, to get them to do it. But only some responded. Deputy Dillon quoted me as saying that some old woollen mills will have to close down. Not merely did I say nothing of the kind, but the whole tenor of my remarks was to try to emphasise that the opposite is the case. Some woollen mills may close down, but none have to do it. Surely everything I said here when I spoke previously was directed to pointing out that there is available in this country a market for woollen cloths which is not being supplied and which mills should be encouraged in supplying. The Government is possessed of adequate powers—powers in respect of the imposition of tariffs, power under the Control of Imports Act—to limit the quantity of cloth brought in, and these powers will be used progressively as production in the Irish mills increases. But we must ensure that there is an adequate supply of cloth for the clothing factories.

Deputy Dillon spoke contemptuously about these clothing factories. He had no justification for that. He referred to the factories engaged in women's clothing as of no importance. They produced goods last year to the value of £320,000, and in the production of these goods they used a greater quantity of woollen cloth than the Irish woollen manufacturers ever exported. It is ridiculous to talk of that industry as being of no importance. In the clothing trade there are more people employed than there ever will be employed in the woollen industry. I am not trying to assess the relative importance of one industry as against another. I must have regard to both. But I must ensure that these clothing factories are not compelled to close by lack of cloth. I am going to ensure that. Subject to that, I am prepared to give every possible advantage to the woollen manufacturers. I do expect to get from woollen manufacturers a bigger effort to meet the requirements of that market. Some of them have done it.

Deputy Cosgrave and Deputy Corry talked about Cork. There is a mill in Deputy Cosgrave's constituency, in Blarney, which has progressed astonishingly under the position created by Government policy. I heard a Labour Deputy laugh to-day when someone referred to the possibility of some areas where there was nobody unemployed. It is true in respect of that area. That mill not merely employs all the people in the immediate vicinity, but has to run a special bus service from Cork to get the workers it requires. It may be that that mill had some particular advantage, but, personally, I think it had the advantage of enterprising management, and that that is why it has been able to make such very rapid and considerable progress when other mills apparently made no progress at all. It may be that that is not the whole explanation. But I do say this: that it is not the obligation of the Government to see that every woollen mill in production here at any time continues in production. We are only bound to help those who help themselves. It is our duty to see that a full production of woollen cloth necessary for our requirements is effected. But we want to see that effected by efficiently-run concerns, efficiently equipped, and able to produce that cloth at the lowest economic price. Any woollen manufacturers who are prepared to accept these terms will get the fullest co-operation the Government can give them.

I am prepared at once to admit the possibility that, in our efforts to adjust the situation as between woollen manufacturers and clothing manufacturers, we may err at one period to the detriment of the woollen manufacturers, just as at other periods we previously erred to the detriment of the clothing manufacturers, because some of them were compelled to stop production, and we had hastily to make additional quota orders to enable them to import the cloth they required. I am prepared to admit the possibility of error, but we have tried to avoid that error as best we could. We got a representative committee from both industries, sitting in joint conference, and with them tried to hammer out a programme for the regulation of imports in such a way as would secure a supply for the requirements of the clothing trade and at the same time allow the progressive development of the woollen industry. I think we have succeeded in doing so, but it is not possible to let the situation stand, because it has got to be kept under constant review, so that from time to time imports may be regulated so as to permit of the maximum possible development in the woollen industry.

At the same-time, I am forced to recognise the fact that there are a number of woollen mills in the country which are only in part-production at the present time. I do not know what the adequate explanation of that is, because side by side with that obvious failure on the part of some mills to use their full productive capacity, we have the clothing mills clamouring for cloth. Possibly the clothing companies want a different class of cloth from that which these mills are capable of producing, but, whatever the explanation, it is for the parties concerned through their representative organisations to try and hammer out a solution, and I assure them that any solution upon which they agree will be gladly accepted by me.

There is one other matter to which I desire to refer. Deputy Dillon referred to guarantees being of no value. These guarantees relate to the price to be charged by some company which is given the benefit of a protective duty. I disagree with that entirely. I will admit that there have been cases in my experience where it was necessary to draw the attention of companies to the guarantees they had given and to take various measures in order to make these guarantees effective, but, on the whole, it has been our experience that these guarantees have been not merely effective but that very many firms have done much better in that respect than they undertook to do. That is true of the Westport Company. I do not want to enter in detail into the price of thread, but I say that, in respect of the great bulk of the thread produced at Westport, they have done better than they undertook to do, that is, to charge a price ex-factory at Westport which would be equal to the price ex-factory at Leicester.

Mr. Dillon

Which they never did.

Mr. Lemass

I say that not only have they done that but that in respect to the great majority of the classes of thread which they produce, their prices are lower than the price of the corresponding thread ex-mill at Leicester.

Mr. Dillon

They have successfully pulled your leg.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy will find out that pulling my leg is a difficult operation. This duty, however, relates to worsted and wollen yarns and the other matters which have been introduced were somewhat extraneous to it. It is utterly ridiculous to suggest that we are in any way jeopardising the future of the woollen trade or the future of our export trade in wollens by getting yarns produced here. I think it is true to say that the reputation of Irish woollen cloth abroad was built up when we were producing all our own yarns. There is probably no woollen mill in the country which is not at present producing woollen yarns or worsted yarns to some extent, but we are importing a great deal of manufactured yarn. They were imported last year to the value of some £600,000. We want to get these yarns made here. The production of them is going to give employment to several hundred people at Tullamore. That is worth attempting, particularly when we can get them manufactured under these conditions, that subject to labour costs being the same here as in Great Britain, the price will be the same and also that there will be complete equality of treatment as between one woollen mill and another. It is upon these conditions that we agreed to impose the tariff. It is upon these conditions that I ask the Dáil to pass this Bill, and I assure Deputies that if these conditions are not observed, then we shall give them an opportunity of reviewing their action. I have not the slightest reason to believe that these conditions will not be observed. The net result of this development will be the creation of a new enterprise which will be of considerable benefit to a part of the country where employment is required.

As regards Deputy Anthony's question, there is nothing to prevent any Irish company engaging in this industry. There is, however, in that connection, a consideration which I ask the Dáil to bear in mind. This company, which has now built the factory at Tullamore, put their proposition to my Department, and I told them that apart from these other conditions as regards price, quality and supply, I wanted an understanding as to where they were going to put their plant. I have not the slightest doubt that if that company were left a free choice their factory would not be at Tullamore. It would quite possibly be at Dublin. As Deputies are aware, it is the policy of the Government to encourage industrial enterprise in rural towns in the country. Ultimately, we succeeded in inducing this particular company to agree to establishing their plant at Tullamore.

Mr. Dillon

Where else would they put it with Mr. Williams and Mr. P.J. Egan on the board?

Mr. Lemass

I presume I shall be allowed to proceed without these sotto voce interruptions. If, however, Deputies approve of that policy I want them to bear in mind that it involves certain consequences. It is the policy of the Government to promote the decentralisation of industry. If the people of the country do not want that policy, they can end it. It is in their power to do so, but if they do want that policy, and I think they do, they have got to recognise that certain consequences follow from it. One of the consequences is this: If we succeed in inducing a company to establish a new industry in some such town as Tullamore or Westport, or any other rural part of Ireland, then we must not at the same time encourage or give special facilities to another company, established to compete with it, subsequent to the establishment of the first company, and proposing to locate its factory at a more convenient centre for distribution such as Dublin or Cork. We do not do that. So far as this industry is concerned or any other industry in respect of which there is no Reserved Commodity Order in operation—so far as I can remember there is only one that applies to—any Saorstát company can engage in it. I am sure that that is altogether desirable. We may at some future time have to reconsider the question of whether it may not be necessary to introduce new legislation in that regard but at the moment any Saorstát company can engage in any industry they wish. What, however, I say is this: Where an industry has been established in some rural area as a result of conforming to Government policy or where existing industries in any trade are capable between them of supplying all the requirements of this country, I am not going to encourage the giving of any special facilities to a new concern to come into these industries, but at the same time I am not going to put any impediment in their way so long as the law remains as it is at present. That applies in respect of this woollen and worsted yarn industry as it applies to any other. Any Saorstát firm can get into it, but they cannot expect and will not get from me either encouragement or special facilities to do so. There is only one thing further that it is necessary to say: We were told that as a result of the blind and stupid mismanagement of the Government—I think that was the phrase—we had destroyed the export industry of the Saorstát woollen mills. I have got here the figures for 1936, and I see that we exported in that year 427,870 square yards of worsted and woollen tissues. That is a fairly considerable export from an industry destroyed by Government mismanagement.

Mr. Dillon

But the Minister did not go on to give the figures for 1929. As a matter of fact, nobody made the allegation to which the Minister referred. The Minister now announces that there was an export of 400 odd thousands of square yards of woollen and worsted tissues. He did not go on to tell us that in 1929 we exported 1,000,000 square yards. Does the Minister deny that?

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy will find a most iluminating account of the woollen industry in the Tariff Commission report. I advise him to study it.

Mr. Dillon

But here are the facts. In 1929 we exported 997,576 square yards of woollen tissues, and that is the export to which the Minister referred a few moments ago as being trivial. In fact he said, if my memory serves me aright, that just prior to the entry of his Government our total export of woollen tissues was 500,000 square yards. World depression, I admit, had hit that industry as well as every other industry, but in the last year before the depression we exported 1,000,000 square yards of woollen tissues. We now export 400 odd thousand square yards.

Mr. Lemass

We are importing 7,000,000 square yards. That is the cardinal fact.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister wants to leave the question of exports? That is all right. I am not surprised that he wants to leave them. He has halved them. I have no doubt that he will further halve them in the course of a few years. I now want to refer briefly—it is scarcely worth referring to, but I mention it for the purpose of the record—to Deputy Corry's statement that the employment in the woollen mills of Ireland had been increased threefold since Fianna Fáil came into office. That kind of insane observation gets currency unless it is immediately contradicted, so I refer the Deputy to the employment figures on page 173 of the September, 1937, issue of the Irish Trade Journal. He will find there that the total number of persons employed in the woollen and worsted industry in 1936 was 3,157. If the Deputy is prepared to maintain that only 1,000 were employed in 1931, he is a braver man than I take him to be.

Mr. Larkin

How many were employed? The Deputy ought to know. He has the figures there. Give us the number of persons who were employed.

Mr. Dillon

If Deputy Larkin wants to intervene in this debate——

Mr. Larkin

I do not want to intervene.

Mr. Dillon

Then he need not start bellowing at me.

Mr. Larkin

The Deputy is bellowing at everybody.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy can keep that kind of "cod" for the Dublin Corporation. He will not get away with it here.

Mr. Corry

I should like to correct the Deputy if he will allow me.

Mr. Dillon

What is it?

Mr. Corry

My statement was that there are employed by Messrs. O'Mahony, Blarney, and Messrs. O'Brien and Morrogh, Cork, three times the number of persons that were employed in 1932 when this Government took over. That was my statement, and if the Deputy has any doubt about it he can come down to Cork and he will get his answer there.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy is very wise to give force to that personal explanation.

Mr. Corry

I always like to correct a Deputy who is so fond of telling ordinary untruths, and twisting other people's statements.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not accuse any Deputy of telling untruths.

Mr. Dillon

Well, it does not really matter, Sir.

Mr. Corry

Extraordinary truth then.

Mr. Dillon

I want to direct the attention of the House to the fact that the Minister told us the ready-made clothing industry is of infinitely greater importance from the point of view of its total production than the woollen textile industry.

Mr. Briscoe

He said from the point of view of employment.

Mr. Dillon

Taking the ready-made clothing industry, in so far as it consumes woollen textiles—and remember we are not now concerned to compare that part of the women's clothing industry which uses materials other than woollen textiles—the value of its total gross output is £321,800. The total gross output value of the woollen textile business is, I think, £821,000.

Mr. Briscoe

The Deputy seems to misunderstand every statement made.

Mr. Dillon

I will not give way to Deputy Briscoe.

Mr. Briscoe

I thought the Deputy needed education.

Mr. Dillon

I do not desire any exchange with the Deputy at all. It is, therefore, to be noted that the endeavour to suggest that the importance of the ready-made clothing industry is out of all proportion to that of the textile industry, is grotesque.

Mr. Briscoe

The Minister did not say any such thing.

Mr. Dillon

Now, the Minister says that this House gave the Government certain powers wherewith to implement their industrial policy. Historically, that is not true. This House gave the Minister powers under the Emergency (Imposition of Duties) Act on the misrepresentation of the President that he required those powers for the implementation of the economic war.

Mr. Briscoe

Is it in order for the Deputy to make that statement?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should not charge any Minister with so misleading the House.

Mr. Dillon

Am I to say that the President is immaculate and never did anything which——

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not in order to accuse a Minister of misleading the House.

Mr. Dillon

I accept your ruling, but it is a most astonishing ruling. Do you mean to say——

An Ceann Comhairle

I have given a ruling.

Mr. Dillon

Very well, then. Does it come within that ruling that I am not to say that the President came before the House to implement certain legislation which had an effect entirely different from that which he forecast?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not what the Deputy said.

Mr. Dillon

The Chair may have misunderstood me. I said that the President came before the House and said: "I want powers to impose emergency tariffs to meet any assault made on this country by the British Government putting on tariffs." I say that that Act has since been used, and the Minister for Industry and Commerce says is now being used, to implement the Government's economic policy. I say that the Act was never intended for that purpose, and I say that the President of the Executive Council asked for the powers in order to arm him against an economic assault by the British Government. Those are the historical facts. If I may not draw the conclusions that those facts manifestly represent, I bow to your ruling. I content myself with stating the facts, and letting those who read interpret them.

Mr. Briscoe

Withdraw the remark about misrepresentation.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister went on to say that there was no commitment in connection with the imposition of those tariffs. It is all very well to say that. Here is a public issue of capital by Salts (Saltaire) Ltd., to which large sums of money have gone. Contracts have been entered into—contracts set out in the terms of the prospectus of the parent English company—which cannot be broken. Large sums of money have already been spent—largely Irish capital. It is all very well to say there are no commitments. There are as many commitments as a Government can enter into, and if this duty were to be rejected now, all the money spent under the prospectus would be lost. The Minister engaged in protracted negotiations and clamped that down on us. We are going to be faced with the same thing in regard to the Athlone textile business. There is a huge structure being put up there, and the tariffs and duties will be introduced, and probably quotas, which this House will be asked to adopt afterwards in order to keep that establishment in existence. Very heavy commitments have been entered into by the Government, and these would have to be repudiated, and I think the promoters would have to be compensated if this House determined to reject this tariff because, after all, we cannot expect everyone to realise what we know, that our Minister for Industry and Commerce is an irresponsible person. We have got to act on the assumption that he is a responsible person who will honour his word. Rotten as I think a great deal of his policy is, so long as he remains Minister his word will be honoured and his bargains carried out. I know quite well that our views of these matters do not correspond with his, but we would certainly consider ourselves bound in honour to compensate or deliver the goods under any contract entered into by Deputy Lemass acting as Minister for Industry and Commerce of Saorstát Eireann. That disposes of the commitments question.

Now, let me come to the question of ladies' dress cloths. I warn the Minister and the Government, and anybody who knows anything of the textile or the ready-made clothing trade will tell them the same thing, that you cannot produce ladies' dress cloths in this country for the reason that you have not the market to consume the variety of goods necessary in order adequately to supply the demand. Women's clothes, of their very nature, must have very different weaves, colours, patterns and fabrics and you cannot produce them in this country. I suppose at the present moment a competent dress manufacturer would be using from 50 to 100 different qualities and patterns of cloth. What individual factory operating here can produce that variety? And remember, each of those patterns and each of those qualities has to be dyed in from six to twelve different colours. What individual factory here can carry that out?

Is it seriously proposed to set up two or three factories to manufacture ladies' dress materials? The thing is grotesque, and what is going to happen is that we are going to have Pepper Lee making a very limited range of cloths, and if you do not like these you will have to pay a prohibitive tariff on the others you bring in, a tariff that will bring the Exchequer a considerable revenue, and then Pepper Lee will demand a quota, which they will get, and we will be further restricted in the variety of cloths we have to offer the public, which ultimately reduces the standard of living, raises the cost of clothes for the people, and creates an entirely unsatisfactory situation, without giving any proportionate return in the way of employment or an increase of national wealth.

Lastly, the Minister says he has no power to stop a firm like Pepper Lee; under the law they can come in if they want to and do as they please. Was that his view in reference to Marsh's when Marsh's were going to set up a biscuit factory in Clones?

An Ceann Comhairle

A biscuit factory in Clones is scarcely related to worsted yarn.

Mr. Lemass

The same thing is quite true in respect of biscuits; any national firm can make biscuits.

Mr. Dillon

Having sought to defend his character in regard to Pepper Lee by saying that he could not stop them even if he wanted to, the Minister then sought to mollify Deputy Dowdall, who let two or three tom-cats out of the bag, and he was terrified that the Deputy would let another tom-cat out. He tried to mollify Deputy Dowdall, and he told the House that, even if he wanted to, he could not prevent Pepper Lee; he had not the power to do so under the law. Whether he has the power or not, all I know is that when another factory wanted to come in here and start making biscuits— and they were in exactly the same situation as Pepper Lee——

Mr. Lemass

Nonsense.

Mr. Dillon

When they wanted to start a biscuit factory the Minister's Department told them: "We have no power to stop you, but we warn you that we can put sufficient obstacles in your way to make it impossible for you to go on. We will prevent non-nationals coming in; we will give you no concessions in the way of importing machinery; we will give you no guarantee with regard to distributing your goods in the country, and, generally, we will give you such a hot time that you will be very sorry you ever came in." They do not tell factories that under the law they do not propose to let them in, but they fix them in such a position——

Mr. Lemass

Why not tell the Minister of these things?

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy is too old a dog on the road to let the Minister know too much. There are ways and means of giving people backhand slaps afterwards that can be used, and I do not propose to afford the Minister opportunities for so doing. The Minister knows well that if Pepper Lee were not encouraged and welcomed and assured of every facility by his Department, they could not set up here.

Mr. Lemass

I assume they would not.

Mr. Dillon

The fact is that the Minister invited them, brought them in here, and established them here, and they would not be here if he did not send for them. The Minister informed the House that he was against this firm coming here, that it was only after long negotiations that he dissuaded this firm of Salts (Saltaire) setting up in Dublin and it was only after a desperate struggle that he got them down to Tullamore.

Mr. Lemass

I agree, we gave them Tullamore as a compromise.

Mr. Dillon

Who are the directors? We have Robert Whyte Guild, who is an English gentleman; Robert Park Guild, another English gentleman; Patrick Joseph Egan, of Annaghmore, Tullamore; John McGrath, Finglas Road, Dublin, and Edmund Williams, Correen, Ailesbury Road, Dublin. That name, honourably and favourably known in Irish commercial circles, is not unassociated with Tullamore. One can picture the two Tullamore men standing on the outskirts of the town shouting, "Not here, Mr. Minister; anywhere in Ireland but Tullamore," and the Minister battling his way into Tullamore to put up the factory there, for lofty social reasons. Does the Minister expect anyone to stomach that?

Mr. Lemass

There is another explanation——

Mr. Dillon

Even Deputy Kelly will not swallow that.

Mr. Lemass

There is another explanation which has not occurred to the Deputy—that the board of directors was formed after the site was selected.

Mr. Dillon

These distinguished gentlemen were not consulted and had no word in the matter: that is what we are supposed to believe. I do not blame them for getting a factory for their own home town. If they did not have a share of the plunder, sómebody else would. It was better, perhaps, that a Tullamore man should have it than some fly-by-night from CzechoSlovakia who would collar all the boodle and then hook it out of the country. At least Williams and Egan would be here all the time. They are welcome to get their share of whatever is going. They are as good Irish business men as there are in the country. But let not the Minister pretend that he had to battle his way into Tullamore in order to confer this favour on that town because his heart was full of sorrow for the unemployed there. He was brought in there through the influence of Messrs. Williams and Egan—and more power to their elbow. I think this is one of the most iniquitous departures on the part of the Minister. I do not say that he is doing it mala fide, because he is an incompetent person; the sad part of it is that we have to suffer for his incompetency. I say that a good many business men will suffer by reason of the Minister's action, and the State will suffer in so far as the adverse trade balance, already at an alarming figure, will be largely increased.

Mr. Dowdall

The Minister in his reply indicated that I had been misled. I intervened in this debate altogether in the hope that the Minister would confine them, so far as Pepper Lee are concerned, to ladies' dress goods. The Minister said he did not know where I got my information. Well, I can tell him that Pepper Lee sent over samples of cloths from Bradford, and these samples they hawked about Cork looking for business, and they sold to one house 25 pieces. I would now ask that the Minister would confine Pepper Lee to ladies' dress cloths

Mr. Lemass

I did not say that these are to be confined to ladies' dress goods, but that they were being confined to fine cloths generally. The cloth they will produce there will average 9 ounces to the yard.

Mr. F.H. Crowley

Am I to be allowed to speak?

An Ceann Comhairle

Certainly. The House is in Committee.

Mr. Crowley

When I entered the House I was not aware that the Irish woollen and worsted industry was under discussion.

An Ceann Comhairle

It should not have been.

Mr. Crowley

I definitely support the Minister in his attitude towards the Tullamore spinning factory. It is about time that the weaving establishments in this country were supplied with yarns made in this country. I do not think that Deputy Dillon has done any good service to the woollen industry by attacking the Tullamore woollen spinning industry. Let us suppose that we had an outbreak of war to-morrow, or in the near future. Everybody who remembers the world war will recall the high price we had to pay for cloth as a result of thread imported. That will give us an idea of what the position would be in the event of another war starting. In other words, with the Tullamore spinning plant working, we would have the raw material for this industry and would not depend on outside sources for our supplies of yarns for dress materials and other woollen goods. It would then be possible to get cloth at reasonable instead of impossible prices as was the case in the great war.

There is one matter to which I desire to draw the attention of the Minister, and that is that the wholesale clothing firms have a stranglehold on the woollen industry at the present time. They control the Irish market. If they refuse to buy the products of Irish mills, that would mean that over 50 per cent. of the production of these mills would remain unsold. Let us remember that for every one yard of woollen and worsted cloth made in this country we import two yards. The woollen industry is one of the oldest in this country. It comes next in importance to the flour industry. It is one that should be fostered, because it is basic.

A circular was sent out recently from the Department of Industry. At the back of that circular was the idea that we should concentrate more on industries the raw materials of which we have ourselves. The woollen industry is one where the raw materials are at its door; in no other industry is the raw material so easily available as it is in the case of the woollen industry. I do not wish to discuss this matter elaborately or at any great length, because I was not aware that it was coming on just now, and I am quite unprepared to go into it in detail. There is, however, one suggestion I have to make. At the present time in the Department of Industry and Commerce there is not a solitary official who knows anything about textiles. In that Department there is no one who has any special training in the textile industry. Now, across in England, if any legislation is to be introduced in connection with the textiles in Lancashire or elsewhere, the people interested in the industry there are the first to be consulted. The British Government consult, not only these, but the people at the head of the textile colleges, of which there are 35 in England; also the professors attached to the textile departments in the different universities, such as Leeds and Manchester. Here we have not even a textile college nor a textile chair in any of our universities. In fact, the whole side of the textile education has been sadly neglected. When the officials of the Department of Industry and Commerce wish to get into touch with textile matters they have nobody to fall back upon. I suggest that when any legislation is proposed to be introduced here, especially legislation dealing with the woollen, cotton or linen industry, that the woollen and cotton manufacturers and the few linen manufacturers we have should be consulted. I do not think it is right, without any consultation with the people in these industries, that an official should prepare or introduce legislation on a subject about which he knows nothing and involving a sum of £600,000, which figure represents the value of textiles imported into the Irish Free State annually.

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear!

Mr. Benson

I am glad that the discussion this evening has turned on the old versus the new. To my mind, since the present Government came into power there is one thing, at all events, on which they have been consistent, and that is their view that one new industry is worth half a dozen old ones. I am connected with an old-established industry. My own firm will be celebrating its half-century next year, and practically every commodity we use is restricted by the Government in some way or another. This particular duty which we are discussing now affects us only in a small way, but it does affect us. We have not been able to secure a licence for the material that we require, even though that material is not manufactured in this country. Yet so far the Minister has not granted us a licence. I am still presuming that Reference No. 5 of the Schedule to this Bill is meant seriously. Here, though, as I have said, we have been established for nearly 50 years, we receive practically no consideration at all from the Department of Industry and Commerce in any of our requirements, whereas, as Deputy Dillon has said, people can come from all over the Continent of Europe and secure from the Minister every facility they require to set up a factory.

Mr. Lemass

I am sorry that Deputy Benson, who is usually a most intelligent man, has been so misled by the propaganda of his Party.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does Deputy Dillon desire to press his amendment?

Mr. Dillon

Most emphatically.

Question put: "That Reference No. 2 stand."

The Committee divided: Tá, 67; Níl, 34.

Tá

• Aiken, Frank.
• Allen, Denis.
• Bartley, Gerald.
• Beegan, Patrick.
• Boland, Gerald.
• Brady, Brian.
• Brady, Seán.
• Breathnach, Cormac.
• Breslin, Cormac.
• Briscoe, Robert.
• Carty, Frank.
• Cleary, Micheál.
• Colbert, Michael.
• Corry, Martin J.
• Crowley, Fred Hugh.
• Davis, Matt.
• Derrig, Thomas.
• De Valera, Eamon.
• Dowdall, Thomas P.
• Everett, James.
• Flynn, John.
• Flynn, Stephen.
• Fogarty, Andrew.
• Friel, John.
• Fuller, Stephen.
• Gorry, Patrick J.
• Harris, Thomas.
• Humphreys, Francis.
• Kelly, James P.
• Kennedy, Michael J.
• Killilea, Mark.
• Kissane, Eamon.
• Larkin, James.
• Lawlor, Thomas.
• Lemass, Seán F.
• Little, Patrick J.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• MacEntee, Seán.
• McGowan, Gerald L.
• Maguire, Ben.
• Meaney, Cornelius.
• Moane, Edward.
• Moore, Séamus.
• Morrissey, Michael.
• Moylan, Seán.
• Munnelly, John.
• Murphy, Timothy J.
• O'Briain, Donnchadh.
• O'Brien, William.
• O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
• O'Grady, Seán.
• O'Reilly, Matthew.
• O'Rourke, Daniel.
• O'Sullivan, Ted.
• Pattison, James P.
• Ruttledge, Patrick J.
• Ryan, James.
• Ryan, Martin.
• Ryan, Robert.
• Sheridan, Michael.
• Smith, Patrick.
• Traynor, Oscar.
• Tubridy, Seán.
• Victory, James.
• Walsh, Laurence J.
• Walsh, Richard.
• Ward, Conn.

Níl

• Anthony, Richard S.
• Bennett, George C.
• Benson, Ernest E.
• Bourke, Séamus.
• Brennan, Michael.
• Browne, Patrick.
• Burke, Patrick.
• Coburn, James.
• Cosgrave, William T.
• Dillon, James M.
• Dockrell, Henry M.
• Doyle, Peadar S.
• Esmonde, John L.
• Fagan, Charles.
• Finlay, John.
• Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
• Giles, Patrick.
• Gorey, Denis J.
• Keating, John.
• Keogh, Myles.
• Linehan, Timothy.
• Lynch, Finian.
• MacEoin, Seán.
• McFadden, Michael Og.
• McMenamin, Daniel.
• Mongan, Joseph W.
• Nally, Martin.
• O'Donovan, Timothy J.
• O'Leary, Daniel.
• O'Shaughnessy, John J.
• O'Sullivan, John M.
• Redmond, Bridget M.
• Ryan, Jeremiah.
• Wall, Nicholas.

Tellers:— Tá: Deputies Little and Smith; Níl; Deputies Doyle and Bennett.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Reference No. 2 ordered to stand.

Mr. Dillon

I move amendment No. 2:—

To delete Reference No. 5.

This amendment is designed to remove from the section the Emergency (Imposition of Duty) Order which places a duty on certain dolls. I have put down that amendment in order to give publicity to the complaint of a merchant dealing in these commodities.

I think the House should know that this complaint is not being sprung upon the Minister for Industry and Commerce, for a copy of the letter making the complaint was sent to his Department some days ago.

Mr. Lemass

Nor has it been sprung on the House. I think it has been sent to all Parties.

Mr. Dillon

I hope it has. They complain that a duty of 50 per cent. has been put on dolls over the value of 9d. and that this duty has been put on nominally to protect the business of the Irish doll factory in Tralee. This firm, whose letter I hold in my hand, say they can produce German samples against the sample submitted by the Tralee factory showing the price of each article, and that even with the 50 per cent. duty added, the Tralee article cannot compare for value with the German imported article. That is a matter of opinion. It is, of course, the common experience of many people similarly circumstanced that an Irish article though comparable from the point of view of price where there is an immense tariff, is frequently not comparable from the point of view of value; but this complaint goes further. It says that the dolls offered by the Tralee factory are identical with the dolls imported from Germany before this prohibitive duty was put on, and the identity is so close that this firm ventures to allege to the Department of Industry and Commerce that the dolls which it is pretended are being made in Tralee are in fact being imported in bits from Germany, sewn together in Tralee, labelled "Irish manufacture," and packed in cardboard boxes of continental manufacture.

The doll which is assembled in Tralee from imported parts is offered to the consuming public at 57/- per dozen. The same doll assembled in Germany is offered to the consuming public at 18/6 per dozen. Really, for the industry of sewing legs on dolls, 40/- a dozen is rather an excessive subsidy. Surely the amount of remunerative employment that could be provided for unemployed persons sewing limbs on to dolls cannot justify a tariff of that size. This merchant says that all the other dolls produced by the firm in Tralee are increased in price in the proportion of the comparison I have just given. The 18/6 doll is increased in price 200 per cent. by the Tralee factory, and this merchant says that every other doll produced in Tralee is increased by approximately a similar percentage.

I must say that when I read this complaint — and it is very explicit — I cannot see why the merchant does not import the dolls from Germany and pay the 60 per cent. duty on 18/6, if his complaint is true, and that leads me to suspect the validity of the suggestion that the 18/6 article is identical with the 57/- article. Nevertheless, I must say that from my knowledge of the firm that makes this allegation — and I think the Minister will confirm me in this — they are reliable people and not people who make reckless charges. They are people, I think, who have the greatest possible admiration for the Minister's industrial policy. They have written to him complimentary letters, have subscribed to his Party funds and were induced to make this specific complaint because the Minister for Finance wrote asking them for a subscription to his Party funds, and they said: "We have kept you afloat for a long time and we have reached the limit of our patience — not a farthing more will we give you because you have played havoc with us and with the country."

The next complaint these people make is that when they required supplies of a certain type of doll, they wrote to Irish Dolls (Utilities), Limited, the Tralee firm, and were informed that none of these dolls could be supplied until next year. Whereas the only time they sell these dolls is Christmas time, there was no use in getting supplies in February which could only be sold in December. This gentleman points out that once he got this notice from Tralee, he was obliged to order a consignment of dolls from the Continent, and is now informed that there is no provision in this Order for admitting the dolls duty free and he wants to know why should not such a provision be put in. I think that a reasonable representation. Possibly he is mistaken in that. The doll order does contain a licensing provision.

Mr. Lemass

No.

Mr. Dillon

Why does not the Minister put in a licensing provision? That is the burden of his complaint. He sent it to the Minister for Industry and Commerce, and to Seán MacEntee, Esquire, at Fianna Fáil headquarters, 13 Upper Mount Street, Dublin, for fear there would be any mistake about it. However, I must add this to his complaint that he is making a great mistake if he thinks he is the only person who has to pay duty on goods he is importing because they cannot be got in this country, because every woman, as I have often said, who buys herself a flannelette nightshirt has to do the same thing. There are four qualities of flannelette manufactured by the Greenmount and Boyne Linen Company——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not deal with flannelette nightshirts unless they are worn by dolls.

Mr. Dillon

I suppose they could be, but the fact is that this is merely one item where the Emergency (Imposition of Duties) Act is used, not for the purpose of protecting an existing industry, but for the purpose of raising revenue. The truth of it is that the Exchequer balance is running a little low; there are certain projects in view, and when the Minister consults Finance about them, Finance says: "If you could knock a few thousand out of this proposition for us before domestic supplies become available, slap on a tariff now. We dare not raise direct taxation any further or introduce a supplementary Budget to replenish the Exchequer, but if you can give us a windfall by putting on emergency duties, we should be very glad if you would." And so these duties go on and the merchant from whom I had this letter will have to pay duty on the doll, not because the Minister is protecting a domestic industry, but because the Minister's colleague, the Minister for Finance, wants revenue and is prepared to knock a little revenue even out of a 6d. doll when he cannot get it anywhere else.

Mr. Lemass

The doll must be more than 9d.

Mr. Dillon

Even a 1/6 doll. By the time the Minister is finished, there will not be any 6d. dolls.

Mr. Bennett

Or any kind of doll.

Mr. Dillon

I think it is a silly thing to do, because it gives rise to unnecessary irritation and annoyance to people trying to do business. I know that the Minister does not concern himself whether the commercial community is inconvenienced or not — but he ought. The imposition of a duty on any article makes its delivery through the customs extremely difficult and tedious, quite apart from the extra cost involved. This is a case in which two things should be done, (1) a licensing provision should be inserted and general notice given all merchants that until supplies of these goods are available in Saorstát Eireann they would be entitled to import free of duty as much of these articles as they imported the previous year and, (2) a careful inquiry should be made into the question whether the Tralee factory is importing from Poland parts of cheap German dolls and charging excessive prices for the service of sewing them together. I can reconcile the details of this complaint with the probable facts, but I am satisfied from the character of the complainant that there is some foundation for complaint, and I think the Minister ought to investigate it before we pass this duty.

Mr. Lemass

I should like to intervene to explain the circumstances that have arisen in relation to this particular industry. It was established at Tralee by a local group acting in conjunction with a local technical vocational committee. The capital was supplied locally, and the enterprise was got going with a fairly considerable amount of enthusiasm. On the face of it it was the type of industry that one would like to encourage, and I gave them any facilities within my power, and any encouragement they required to go ahead. They commenced operations on the production of a class of toys and extended to dolls. I am sorry to say that up to date they have not made good. I think there is some ground for the complaint of the trader, although some particular allegations he made in that particular letter were found on investigation to be without foundation. I have a certain hesitation in speaking about the matter, because I have, in fact, thought it necessary to notify this particular firm that unless there is an immediate improvement in the quality and volume of their productions, the question of withdrawing the protection afforded them will have to be considered. I do not think the matter is particularly urgent, even though Deputy Dillon has adverted to the close proximity of Christmas. All the traders were stocked for the Xmas trade before the duty was imposed, and very few of these articles have been imported since. In fact, not many orders have been given to the Tralee factory. The explanation, I think, will be obvious, that this season's stocks are in. It is of next season's we are thinking. I do not think they are going to make good. If they do not, the situation will have to be reconsidered.

There are other possibilities, and, in particular, I draw the attention of the House to the fact that Gaeltacht Industries are establishing a factory at Belmullet for the manufacture of dolls and soft toys generally. They have trained a number of girls who are now competent to commence production. They intend to do so in the course of a few weeks. The existence of the Belmullet factory is dependent on this duty. The quality of the goods produced is good, and samples that were produced there, when shown to traders, passed as being excellent. But there is much more to be done for the development of the industry of manufacturing dolls and toys generally. The Tralee concern may get over their difficulty and make good. They have been a long time trying, but seem to have difficulty. I am anxious to keep the duty on for the present, first, because its removal would effect very little purpose, except, perhaps, to embarrass some traders. If we were going to remove the duty, I think we would have to give notice and endeavour to do so in such a manner that one trader would not have an undue advantage over another. It may be necessary to do as we did when other duties were removed in some cases by providing for repayment of any duty charged on stocks not disposed of. I do not think this will affect the situation this year. We can review the situation at the slack season, and if there is no immediate prospect of adequate production at reasonable prices, in time for next season, the duty will have to come off, or be modified in some form, to prevent duty being charged on goods that cannot be had within the country. I admit that there is an immediate difficulty in relation to the industry. I explained what it is. I think we should keep the duty in force for the time being, and I assure the House that unless there is an improvement, there will be another Order in the near future.

Mr. Dillon

Would the Minister consider having a licence in the Order?

Mr. Lemass

We considered that at the time, and we decided that it would be impossible to operate a licensing Order in regard to articles so varied in character, price and quality. When we have a licensing provision we have to get some basis of allocation, some basis to determine the quality.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister will review the matter before next Christmas?

Mr. Lemass

The matter will be definitely reviewed after this Christmas.

Question proposed: "That the schedule be the Schedule to the Bill."

Mr. Dockrell

I wish to refer to Reference No. 6, dealing with coloured tiles. These tiles are used for curbs, slab panels and tile surrounds in building operations. The Government started by imposing a duty of 50 per cent. on imported slab panels. Everybody agrees that that resulted in those requiring these articles making them up here. Then a firm started to make some of the tiles on which a duty of 50 per cent. was imposed. Those who make up these tiles here have to face a duty of 15/6 per ton on the luminous cement used in the manufacture of panels and surrounds. That is a very considerable handicap. I have no doubt the Minister will say: "Yes, but we have a licensing provision in force, and those who should get licences to import these tiles are getting them." I agree that that is the present situation. But these matters go through a progressive series, and at first, as at present, everything in this industry is quite easy. The contracts that you have entered into you are allowed to finish up. Wall tiles which are not covered by this provision are exempt, and you can get your ordinary requirements.

These things, as I have said, go through a progressive series, and a little bit later, according to experience in other lines, manufacturers will come along to the Minister's Department and say: "Well, we are now making a range of 20 colours and we do not think there ought to be any more licences issued for the importation of these goods." Now, reviewing that, what is the position? These slab panels are in competition with the metal chimneypieces that are either manufactured here in the cheaper grades or brought in in others. I think the Minister should not handicap an industry which has been made up on the spot, and that certainly has a greater future before it than the ordinary metal chimneypiece which is at present being manufactured. What is the future for these tile manufacturers, and of the people who make up these panels? There are about 20 different colours issued. There are none of the cheap high-glazed quality tiles going to be manufactured any more, and a duller glaze will have to be substituted at a greatly increased price. The position will be that a person who before had a selection of tiles from probably 20 different manufacturers on the other side, and all making 50 different and more colours, will be brought down to a range of the 20 colours manufactured here.

I welcome what the Minister said with regard to the clause for the ready-made clothing. He said that he was not going to compel the people here to take what they did not want. I wish he could see his way to make that pronouncement to the average consumer in this country with regard to a whole lot of things that are at present being manufactured here, because there is no doubt that a very serious situation is arising. The average manufacturer here, when he starts, has to look at the whole range of goods which had been previously imported. The manufacturer has yet to be born who can manufacture the range of goods which come into this country, on the present volume of trade, at anything like the prices at which they are imported. What does he do? He very wisely, because he could not do anything else, cuts down the range of samples to possibly 10 per cent. or 5 per cent. of the samples or qualities or colours previously available. There is a sort of tradition that any stuff which is really and genuinely required outside that range ought to be imported free, but it does not work out like that. The manufacturer says: "Well, now I am making something like that, and really consumers' requirements are most unreasonable. They ought to be made take the stuff that I manufacture." What does the consumer do when he is faced with that? He has the solution in his own hands, and I am sorry to say that he is adopting the solution which I suppose a lot of us do when faced with that position. He has got either to pay an enormously increased price in consequence of the 100 per cent. duty on something that is brought in, or, if he belongs to the humbler class of the community, he finds that the cheap mass-produced article has been done away with altogether. He is left, therefore, to pay a higher price for an article which is possibly not even as good, and which may be inferior. That is reducing enormously the volume of business which is being done in this country. We have cups that will not remain on the saucers and jugs that pour out of the lids concurrently with the spout. That, of course, brings about a concurrent reduction in the quality of the table linen which is used, because if the tea is poured over a cloth every time there is a meal, then something will have to be got that will last longer than the linen tablecloth.

I would like to point out to the Minister that there ought to be some method, or some standard, for arriving at what are the reasonable requirements of the consumers of this country, because I am sorry to say that in a great many instances they get little or no consideration. Their reasonable requirements ought to be catered for by the Irish manufacturer. In a number of cases he is catering for 33? per cent. or, at the outside, 50 per cent. of the people. That means that there is another 50 per cent. left either to do without the goods they want or to bring them in and pay a duty of 100 per cent. on them. The Minister must be perfectly well aware that that problem is not confined to the ready-made women's clothing.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to confine himself to tiles. He may not enter on a review of the whole tariff policy.

Mr. Dockrell

Well, Sir, I am trying to confine myself to tiles, but on an earlier section, dealing with yarns, there was a very extensive discussion.

An Ceann Comhairle

There was, but it was a discussion which was largely irrelevant.

Mr. Dockrell

Well, Sir, I do not want to make any more than a passing reference to the fact that it occurred in that case, and it has occurred in a great many other cases of which the Minister and his Department are perfectly well aware. I am sorry to say, however, that under the present arrangement the tendency is for the consumers in a great many cases to do without, and, having practised doing without, they find that under lower standards and lower requirements — well, it is no wonder that there seems to be a paradox as to how employment is being increased by the Government while the unemployed figures are rising at the same time. I hope the Minister will try to deal with the general aspect of that very real problem which arises in connection with practically all the Irish manufacturers who require either taste or colour or various other matters in which a great deal of discrimination has to be exercised, because I am very much afraid that the tendency of the Irish manufacturer is to cut the range of samples far below what is required by the country and then to scream at the mere idea of anything being allowed in outside his own line of manufacture.

Mr. Lemass

I recognise the importance of variety in relation to a number of articles, but I think we must reconcile ourselves to the fact that if we set out to make goods for ourselves here, we cannot possibly have the same variety of these goods as we had when we had all the countries of the world to pick from. That is one of the prices we have got to pay for industrialisation here, and I have frequently referred to that before. I agree, however, that we should endeavour to secure the widest possible variety consistent with economic production here, and we have on various occasions taken up the question of an extension of variety with various firms—not always with beneficial results, but often with beneficial results. The same thing applies in relation to these glazed tiles. We will not have the same variety of designs and colours, shades and shadings, that we had in the past when we could select from the production of a very large number of manufacturers and a very large number of countries. We will have to be satisfied with a much smaller number of designs and colours, but I think we will be able to manage with these, and I think there will be still available a sufficient variety of designs and colours to enable the average individual to exercise an amount of discrimination. Views will differ as to what constitutes a sufficient variety, but in any event we should try to get, in relation to these particular articles as in relation to any other articles, the maximum number of varieties of which efficient production will permit.

These tiles are being produced in Cork by the Carrigaline Company. They are producing the type of tiles referred to, and in the course of a year or so they will commence the production of wall tiles. At present, wall tiles and white tiles are being admitted under licence. We could not exempt white tiles from the scope of the duty, because, apparently, it is not very easy to say what is white. I mean to say that it is not easy to say where white stops and cream begins. Consequently a general exclusion of white tiles from the scope of the duty might be used to secure a successful duty-free importation of white tiles which, in fact, were coloured. Therefore, we made the duty generally applicable to that class of tile. The tiles produced in Cork have been shown to a number of people interested in these matters, and they have all spoken very highly of their quality, and the price for these tiles is similar to that charged by British manufacturers for the same class of tile. The only point to be dealt with is Deputy Dockrell's point to the effect that in the future there will be a lesser variety. That, however, is inevitable, and I do not think it is possible to avoid it.

Schedule and Title of the Bill agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment.

Mr. Lemass

I should like to take the Report Stage to-morrow, Sir, if the Dáil meets.

Report Stage ordered for Thursday, 28th of October.