This amendment introduces, as if it were a new thing, or a thing we wanted to keep, an adjudication in bankruptcy. Is it intended to have a bankrupt forbidden to vote as a member for the election of the Seanad or to sit in the Seanad?
Seanad Electoral (Panel Members) Bill, 1937—Second Recommittal (Resumed.)
Debate resumed on amendment No. 53.
Both.
Has that practice been carried out in respect of this House?
No.
Why have we not the law governing this Assembly enforced—that an adjudicated bankrupt should not either go up for election or sit in this House? Has not that been broken?
If it has, it is because the machinery for dealing with it has not been set up.
Where is the machinery for dealing with it here? If it is going to be a dead letter, why are you putting it into your legislation?
Did the President say that there was no machinery for enforcing it?
If it happened, it was because there was no responsibility placed on anybody to deal with it.
It was dealt with before. There were people there then who thought that they had responsibility in the matter, and machinery was found to deal with it.
There is no perfecting of the machinery and no placing of responsibility on anybody in this amendment. Why not drop this provision? It is not such a heinous matter after all. Let us cut out this pretence.
I see no reason why it should not remain.
Surely the best way to bring the law into contempt is to put in something that is not enforced. Is that not almost an aphorism in legislation? Is there going to be no machinery to enforce this?
Is it the position that it cannot be enforced?
It can.
If people like to do it.
People do not like to do it.
If it is a sufficient reason——
What is the reason in the case of the Dáil?
There might be special circumstances surrounding a particular bankruptcy.
So that it does not matter what the law is.
Is that the situation—that there is to be a body of people other than the judges to say whether or not an adjudication in bankruptcy was meritorious or not? I am suggesting that we should leave this phrase out, because it has been made a dead letter so far as the practice is concerned.
You have a bee in your bonnet over something you are afraid to say.
Could we make it plainer? The President understands it.
I do not think we should pass this amendment with this phrase when it is not going to be made effective. Surely it is absurd to do so.
It may not be absurd.
Then let us put it in when we are thinking of making it effective.
I see no harm in its being there.
Is it no harm to put in a phrase like this and let it lapse by disuse? If it is left, machinery should be arranged to put it into operation. Otherwise, it should not be left in.
Has it not been common knowledge here that there were several bankruptcies.
No. There was one case of a bankrupt returned to this House. A Committee of the House was set up, the seat was declared vacant, and a new election took place. The same thing arose on this occasion and the gentleman was allowed to take his seat.
That is the trouble.
Quite right.
Did not the gentleman concerned get the permission of the courts to do so?
Rubbish. If that was so, there was no bankruptcy.
You people are bankrupt in policy.
More than one bankrupt was returned to this House.
Then the abuse is all the worse. I heard of only one, and action was then taken, but this Dáil met carrying a bankrupt. Why bring in this phrase if it is not going to be operative?
Power is given here to the secretary of the county council.
So long as responsibility is shoved over to somebody else, it is all right.
Whose responsibility is it?
The responsibility of the Government.
Who ought to keep the legislative Assembly free from breaking the law?
That is a nice question.
So nice and delicate that the President would not handle it.
The Government has certain duties to perform and that is not included in them.
Is it not the function of the Government more than anybody else to see that the House does not sit in breach of its own law?
That is not the question.
That is what has occurred.
That is a different matter. We are dealing with a different question here.
We are dealing with the inclusion of a phrase incorporated in our law, which has been broken, and which the Government, whose prime responsibility it was to take action, allowed to be broken.
If the Opposition thought that the Government were not doing their duty at any particular period, why did they not bring forward a motion and get the matter considered or why did they not introduce a vote of censure on the Government for not dealing with the matter? We hear of it now by a side-wind. In regard to this matter, certain people are indicated as being legally entitled to do certain things. The officer who is to be charged with supervising the meeting will have the power to deal with this matter, if he wishes to exercise it—and I take it he will exercise it, because it is brought quite clearly to his notice.
We are to hope that the secretary of a county council will perform a duty which the Government funked doing.
No such thing.
They would not take the duty on themselves although they had the example set by their predecessors.
It would be interesting to have that example gone into.
This is not the time for that.
Why did you not draw attention to it?
The Deputy should remember that, to be a "rough diamond", he has got to be something more than merely rough. Why should we incorporate in our legislation a phrase appearing in other legislation and ignored? The President says it was not the duty of the Government to enforce it. Another Government thought it was, and another Government consulted the House regarding it. It accepted the responsibility for taking the first step in the matter and the House agreed that its own legislation was being broken. A new election was ordered. Surely it is a disgraceful thing to have a House sit containing a man who was elected here in breach of its own laws.
It is a very interesting thing at this late hour to hear the Deputy calling the attention of the House to this matter. I do not know the details of the method by which this matter was dealt with before, but I doubt very much whether the suggestion of the Deputy as to how it was dealt with is accurate.
The President, as usual, will say something, revealing that he has no knowledge of the matter, and putting an interpretation on it. Why say that he is not so sure about my interpretation? Does the President know what happened?
I have a general idea of what happened.
What is the general idea?
Would the President state in general what happened?
I am not, on an issue of this sort, going to discuss a matter of the character which the Deputy is bringing in at this stage. If the Deputy wants to deal with it, let him put down a motion to deal with it.
In other words, the President again says: "You people were able to do things when you were a government. We are not able to do them. Let you, as an Opposition, take our job on your shoulders."
We would not have waited——
We did our duty as we conceived it at the time. We did not wait for the Opposition to put down motions about it. It was done in such a way that a Committee of the House was established, and reported on the matter, and action was taken on foot of that report.
And perhaps if a Committee were to examine it, it might be found not to be so pure-souled as the Deputy would like us to believe.
As long as the President can, even in a vague way, throw a slander, it will come. He is simply throwing out the poison gas business without any knowledge of the matter.
Like Glasgow.
"If it were examined it might easily prove——"
No responsibility—just fling it out.
No responsibility—just fling it out.
——and we will get the President's second best thought to-morrow as usual.
Let the Deputy put down a motion.
In other words, let somebody in the Opposition take on the job which the Government should take on.
As Leader of the House.
Show me where it is the job of the Leader of the House.
If there is anything affecting the House in its composition, particularly as to whether or not the House is sitting in breach of its own law, on whom does the responsibility, if no person is named, fall better than on the Leader? And if there was not a weak man in control the job would be shouldered.
On a point of order, Sir, might I ask if this discussion is in order? The Deputy seems to be discussing the duty of the President, or what his duty was some years back. That, I suggest, is not in order on this Bill.
It is one cowardly thing not to face a job, and it is a second cowardly thing to run away from a discussion of it. This is the double cowardice.
Let the strong man talk.
I am talking on an amendment which the President has put into this legislation, that certain people shall not be permitted to become electors for the Seanad. It is proposed to discriminate as between the nominees of the county councils by deciding whether or not a man is an adjudicated bankrupt. I am suggesting that that ought not to be put into the legislation. We have the same phrase in the legislation that governs the composition of this House, and it has not been operated. How can we have any belief that it will operate in regard to county councillors, when the only reason given to us is the President's statement: "You can expect the secretary of a county council to do his duty," he having failed in his?
Was the case not brought before the court and did the court not give its permission?
It did not.
I should like to argue that with the Deputy all the same, and across the floor of this House.
The Deputy does not know what he is talking about. The court did not, and the Deputy cannot argue on the basis of wrong information.
Amendment put and agreed to.
I move amendment No. 54:—
In page 18, before Section 34 (4), to insert a new sub-section as follows:—
(4) Neither the failure of a council or the former members of a dissolved council to hold an election in pursuance of this section nor the election by a council or the former members of a dissolved council of less than seven electors shall prejudice or affect the validity of the elections held in pursuance of this section by other councils or the former members of other councils or the validity and conclusiveness of the electoral roll or, where less than seven electors are so elected, the validity of the election of so many electors as are so elected.
This amendment provides that failure to hold an election of council electors, or to elect the full number of seven electors, shall not prejudice or affect the validity of such elections as are held, or of the electoral roll.
The county councils are to elect on the principle of proportional representation, and they are to elect seven. If they do not elect those seven, one of the main aims of insisting on proportional representation may be defeated. Is that not the case?
If so, we cannot help it.
Would their nomination of five members be valid?
Yes.
Even though they determined to elect only five and defeated the principle of proportional representation?
That is so.
That is, in one case we make it mandatory—I am taking the President's answers—that they will act on the system of proportional representation, and we are here introducing a section under which they can side-step that.
They cannot, because only two can nominate, and, unless you had no representation at all, it would be an altogether exceptional case.
I wonder could they pass a resolution that they would send up only five?
I do not think that is possible.
Supposing they passed beforehand a resolution that only the first five should be sent up. The question is: could they do it?
I do not think they could, but I could not point to an express provision in that regard, except in so far as seven are to be elected, but any two members can nominate an elector. I do not think it could arise.
I want to know if it can be prevented.
The trouble is that if you provide machinery to prevent everything possible to be done from being done, you would want a Bill three times as long, and this Bill is sufficiently long already. I do not think you need provide for a case of that sort.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 55:—
In page 18, line 35, Section 34 (4), after the word "execution" to insert in brackets the words "(including prescribing a limited time for the doing of any act or thing)".
This amendment requires the Minister to make regulations and empowers him to give instructions regarding the election of council electors. The amendment makes it clear that such regulations and instructions may include prescribing a limited time for the doing of anything necessary in connection with such elections. He may say that it must be done within a certain time.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 56:—
In page 18, line 50, Section 35 (2), after the word "electors" to insert the words "duly held in pursuance of this Act".
This amendment is a drafting amendment making it clear that a reference to the elections of council electors is intended to relate to such elections as have been "duly held in pursuance of this Act."
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 57:—
In page 18, before Section 35 (3), to insert a new sub-section as follows:—
(3) Where a person is a member of the electorate for a Seanad election by virtue of more than one qualification, his name shall nevertheless be entered once only in the electoral roll for such Seanad election.
This amendment inserts a new sub-section making it clear that if a person is qualified as an elector for the Seanad in more than one capacity— as a member of Dáil Eireann and as an elector elected by a council—he shall, nevertheless, have only one vote. The same person being one of the electors from a county council and also a member of the Dáil, could not have a vote in both cases.
Can he opt?
I do not think so.
Does this prevent him from opting?
It is quite clear that it does not matter. He is only an elector and he has a vote, but it does not matter in what capacity he has that vote. He has equal rights so far as voting is concerned.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 58:—
In page 19, to add at the end of Section 35 a new sub-section as follows:—
(6) The death of a person whose name is entered in an electoral roll shall not prejudice or affect the validity or operation of such electoral roll, whether such death occurred before or occurs after the preparation of such electoral roll.
The amendment is designed to provide that the death of a person whose name is on the electoral roll shall not prejudice or affect the validity of the roll.
Amendment agreed to.
SECTION 36.
I move amendment No. 59:—
In page 19, before Section 36, to insert a new section as follows:—
As soon as practicable after the completion of the electoral roll or the publication of the panels in the Iris Oifigiúil (whichever shall later happen), and in any event before the day appointed for the issue of ballot papers, the Seanad returning officer shall send by post to each person whose name is on the electoral roll, at his address stated on the electoral roll, a copy of the five panels as published in the Iris Oifigiúil, but with the modification that there shall, in such copy, be inserted in respect of every person on any panel a statement of the body or person or persons on whose nomination he was put on such panel.
This amendment requires the Seanad returning officer to send to every elector a copy of the five panels, including a statement in respect of every person on a panel of the body or person or persons by whom he is nominated. The source of his nomination is to be indicated.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 60:
In page 19, Section 36 (1), before paragraph (b) to insert a new paragraph as follows:—
(b) every ballot paper shall also state, in respect of every candidate named therein, the panel and sub-panel in which he is named as a candidate.
This amendment requires that every ballot paper shall indicate to what panel and sub-panel every candidate belongs. It refers to cases in which a candidate is a Dáil nominee and a nominating body nominee.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 61:—
In page 19, line 21, Section 36 (1), paragraph (b), to delete the words "surname of each candidate" and substitute the words "surnames of the several candidates."
The amendment is merely a verbal one intended to remove an inconsistency in the use of the singular and plural.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 62:—
In pages 20 and 21, Section 40 (1), to delete paragraphs (a) to (e), and substitute five new paragraphs as follows:—
(a) five members shall be elected from the cultural and educational panel, of whom one shall be elected from the Dáil sub-panel of that panel and four shall be elected from the nominating bodies' sub-panel of the said panel;
(b) eleven members shall be elected from the agricultural panel, of whom six shall be elected from the Dáil sub-panel of that panel and five shall be elected from the nominating bodies' sub-panel of the said panel;
(c) eleven members shall be elected from the labour panel, of whom six shall be elected from the Dáil sub-panel of that panel and five shall be elected from the nominating bodies' sub-panel of the said panel;
(d) nine members shall be elected from the industrial and commercial panel, of whom five shall be elected from the Dáil sub-panel of that panel and four shall be elected from the nominating bodies' sub-panel of the said panel;
(e) seven members shall be elected from the administrative panel, of whom four shall be elected from the Dáil sub-panel of that panel and three shall be elected from the nominating bodies' sub-panel of the said panel.
This is largely verbal.
I think the President considered a question of fact, that only one person from the cultural panel can be elected from the Dáil sub-panel. I take it that that stands.
Deputy Morrissey raised a point about this, but it was not possible to meet it without completely upsetting the scheme. It is not of much importance.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 63:—
In page 21, Section 40, to delete sub-sections (2), (3) and (4).
We have discussed these, and they are to be considered in connection with matters already discussed.
So that the Deputy will not be disappointed, I may tell him that I have gone into this matter, and the question of dates comes in. If you are to make any provision other than for the Taoiseach filling up here, we are going to be completely out in time after the dissolution. The time is very short. After all, there is a warning to any particular body entitled to nominate that if it does not avail of it the Taoiseach will have to put in the necessary nominations. It means that he has to put in two more than the number that could be elected.
It may mean that he has practically the nomination of an extra number, and not merely the allocation of a certain number.
The Deputy realises that we cannot be calling the Dáil back in the time at our disposal. It may be taken that the bodies that have the privilege will avail of that privilege to nominate persons to the Seanad.
It was not I raised the difficulty. It was the President's amendment that suggested they would not avail of the opportunity.
If the Deputy wishes I will admit that it is a sort of provision that will probably not be required. At the same time, it would not do to have any fault on that account.
The number of nominations that bodies may make is limited. It may easily happen that there will be a shortage.
I do not think there will be.
It may happen. Possibly not. Why should not the House nominate as quickly as the others? Is it a question of counting?
There is the question of summoning the Dáil. It would take a long time to get over a whole series of things, and, at a certain stage, it was discovered that from the time the nominations have to be published and the work finished, it is only on the last stage that it can be discovered if all the nominations are in. To summon the Dáil and to give time for postal voting leaves a very short period at our disposal. In a matter like this we want to have a ready and simple means and I believe this will be an inducement generally to outside bodies to do their duty. Otherwise they know that it is going to be done for them by the Government.
By an objectionable process.
If people thought like the Deputy, for instance?
It is only a warning to persons who are objectionable. I do not want to waste time, but so far as there is a difficulty, I realise that if the President makes up his mind he will not do it, and the House will not do it. So far as there is a difficulty about time the Opposition is not to blame. We did not fix limitations regarding the movement of time. Certainly I think in the ordinary case there are three months between the dissolution of the Dáil and the time when the Seanad must be elected in the ordinary way.
The Deputy understands that this is advisable if we are to have the Second House constituted as quickly as it can be done after the dissolution. There may be an interval.
There was a general election at the beginning of July and the House met, but did not meet for several months afterwards. Did it matter whether or not there was a Second House in that period? I suggest that you ought to balance the blank whether you leave it to the President or utilise the three months.
Last July was normal, but if that happened in 1932, or when there was immediate action to be taken, or during a period when, as a matter of fact, there was executive work of no immediate or pressing importance, there might be a difficulty. I tried to do what I could here.
Probably if you did it would be worse.
Amendment agreed to.
SECTION 42.
I move amendments Nos. 64 and 65:—
In page 22, lines 18 and 19, Section 42 (2), to delete the words "or any ballot slip forming part thereof".
In page 22, in lines 21 and 22, Section 42 (3), to delete the words "or any ballot slip forming part thereof", and in line 24 to delete the words "any such ballot slip" and substitute the words "such ballot paper".
These amendments delete reference to ballot slips. The references which are no longer appropriate were allowed to stand on recommittal owing to an oversight.
Amendments agreed to.
I move amendment No. 66:—
In page 22, line 52, Section 43 (1), paragraph (e), to delete the words "reference to the House of Commons" and substitute the words and brackets "references (including references by adaptation) to Dáil Eireann" and in lines 53 and 54 to delete the words "to the Speaker of the House of Commons" and substitute the words and brackets "(including references by adaptation) to the Chairman or the Ceann Comhairle of Dáil Eireann."
The amendment deletes references to the House of Commons and the Speaker of the House of Commons and substitutes references to Dáil Eireann and to the Ceann Comhairle including references by adaptation. It was a question of carrying over old Acts. I am sure this pleases the Deputy.
Yes, as pleasant as Éire.
You are happier now.
The reality is still there but the words have changed.
Amendment agreed to.
FIRST AND SECOND SCHEDULES.
I move amendments Nos. 67 and 68:—
67. In pages 24 to 29, to delete the First Schedule and substitute the following Schedules:—
FIRST SCHEDULE.
Conduct of Election.
1. On the day of issue of ballot papers at a Seanad election the Seanad returning officer shall issue, in the manner directed in the following Rules, a ballot paper to every elector named on the electoral roll for that election.
2. Every candidate at a Seanad election shall be entitled to attend at the issue of ballot papers for that election, and the Seanad returning officer shall, on the request of any such candidate, inform such candidate of the time and place at which such issue of ballot papers will be made.
3. The Seanad returning officer and his assistants, any candidate and any agent appointed by a candidate, and no other person, except with the permission of the Seanad returning officer, may be present at the issue of ballot papers.
4. The Seanad returning officer shall issue a ballot paper to each elector by doing or causing to be done in respect of such elector the following things in the following order, that is to say:—
(a) the number, name, address, and description of the elector as stated in the electoral roll shall be called out;
(b) the elector's said number shall be marked on the counterfoil of the ballot paper to be sent to him;
(c) a mark shall be placed on the electoral roll opposite the elector's name thereon to indicate that a ballot paper has been issued to such elector, but without disclosing the identity of such ballot paper;
(d) the ballot paper shall be marked on both sides with the official mark;
(e) the number on the back of the ballot paper shall be marked upon a form of declaration of identity and upon an envelope (hereinafter referred to as the ballot paper envelope) in the prescribed form;
(f) there shall be placed in an envelope (hereinafter referred to as the outer envelope) in the prescribed form addressed to the elector at his address stated in the electoral roll the following documents, that is to say:—
(i) a ballot paper, and
(ii) the said form of declaration of identity, and
(iii) an envelope (hereinafter referred to as the covering envelope) in the prescribed form addressed to the Seanad returning officer, and
(iv) the said ballot paper envelope;
(g) the outer envelope shall be effectually closed;
(h) when the foregoing provisions of this Rule have been complied with in respect of all the electors whose names are on the electoral roll, all the said closed outer envelopes shall be collected, counted, and posted.
5. Every request for the issue of a duplicate ballot paper shall, when received by the Seanad returning officer, be endorsed by him with the day and hour of the receipt thereof by him and with a consecutive number, and every duplicate ballot paper issued in pursuance of any such request shall be issued in accordance with the provisions of the foregoing Rule so far as the same are applicable save that, in lieu of the number on the electoral roll, there shall be marked on the counterfoil of such ballot paper the consecutive number endorsed on the request in pursuance of which such ballot paper is issued and that when such ballot paper has been issued the said request shall be disposed of in like manner as the marked copy of the electoral roll is required by these Rules to be disposed of.
6. The Seanad returning officer shall post the said closed outer envelopes by delivering such envelopes to the nearest head post office, or such other office as may be arranged with the head postmaster, and the postmaster at such office shall stamp with the post office date stamp a form of receipt to be presented by the Seanad returning officer stating the number of envelopes so delivered, and shall immediately forward such envelopes by registered post for delivery to the persons to whom they are addressed.
7. The Seanad returning officer, as soon as practicable after the completion of the issue of the ballot papers and in the presence of such candidates and agents as are in attendance, shall make up in separate packets, sealed with his own seal and sealed by such of the said candidates or agents as desire to affix their seals, the marked copy of the electoral roll and the counterfoils of the ballot papers.
8. The Seanad returning officer shall provide a ballot box marked "Seanad ballot box" for the reception of the covering envelopes when returned by the voters, and on the completion of the issue of the ballot papers the Seanad returning officer shall show such ballot box open and empty to the candidates and agents (if any) present, and shall seal such ballot box with his seal and shall make provision for the safe custody of such ballot box.
9. The Seanad returning officer shall forthwith place unopened in the Seanad ballot box every covering envelope received by him before the close of the poll and shall seal up unopened in a separate package all covering envelopes received by him after the close of the poll and shall also seal up unopened in a separate package all outer envelopes returned to him as undelivered.
10. Not less than three days before the close of the poll the Seanad returning officer shall send by post to every candidate at his address as stated in the panels of candidates notice in writing of the time and place at which he will open the Seanad ballot box and count the votes.
11. As soon as conveniently may be after the close of the poll the Seanad returning officer shall open the Seanad ballot box and count the votes.
12. The Seanad returning officer and his assistants, any candidate and any agent appointed by a candidate, and no other person, except with the permission of the Seanad returning officer, may be present at the opening of the Seanad ballot box or the counting of the votes.
13. When the Seanad ballot box has been opened the Seanad returning officer shall do the following things, that is to say:—
(a) take all the covering envelopes out of the Seanad ballot box and count and note the number thereof;
(b) open each such covering envelope and segregate any of those envelopes containing a declaration of identity issued as a duplicate form of declaration of identity;
(c) take up separately each of the said covering envelopes not so segregated, examine the declaration of identity therein and compare the number on such declaration with the number on the ballot paper envelope in such covering envelope;
(d) if the said numbers agree and the declaration of identity is found to be duly completed and made, he shall place the declaration of identity and the ballot paper envelope in separate receptacles;
(e) if he is not satisfied that the declaration of identity has been duly completed and made he shall endorse the declaration of identity "vote rejected," and shall attach thereto the ballot paper envelope, without opening such envelope, or if there is no such envelope, the ballot paper;
(f) if he finds that the numbers on the declaration of identity and on the ballot paper envelope do not agree, or if the envelope has no number on it, he shall open the envelope, and if the number on the ballot paper agrees with the number on the declaration of identity he shall place the ballot paper in the special receptacle provided by him for ballot papers;
(g) where the number on the ballot paper does not agree with the number on the declaration of identity, he shall replace the ballot paper in its envelope, if any attach such envelope or ballot paper (as the case may be) to the declaration of identity, and endorse the declaration of identity "vote rejected";
(h) where a declaration of identity does not appear to accompany the ballot paper envelope, he shall open the ballot paper envelope, and if it is found to contain the declaration of identity he shall deal with such declaration and ballot paper envelope in accordance with the foregoing provisions of this Rule;
(i) he shall mark with the word "rejected" every declaration of identity which is not accompanied by a ballot paper, and every ballot paper which is not accompanied by a declaration of identity;
(j) when all the said covering envelopes not so segregated have been dealt with under the foregoing provisions of this Rule, he shall take up separately each of the said covering envelopes segregated as containing a declaration of identity issued as a duplicate form of declaration of identity, examine the declaration of identity therein (hereinafter referred to as the duplicate declaration) and ascertain whether a declaration of identity in respect of the same person has or has not been previously examined under this Rule:
(k) if a declaration of identity in respect of the same person has been previously examined under this Rule he shall mark the duplicate declaration "vote rejected" and shall attach thereto the ballot paper envelope, without opening such envelope, or, if there is no such envelope, the ballot paper;
(l) if a declaration of identity in respect of the same person has not been previously examined under this Rule he shall deal with the duplicate declaration and the ballot paper envelope and ballot paper accompanying the same in accordance with the foregoing provisions of this Rule other than the two last preceding paragraphs thereof.
14. Where a ballot paper and a declaration of identity are received together and the numbers on such ballot paper and on such declaration agree, such ballot paper shall not be rejected solely on the ground that such ballot paper and such declaration were not placed in the proper envelopes or that any of such envelopes was not fastened.
15. The Seanad returning officer shall show any declaration of identity which he proposes to reject on the ground that it has not been properly completed and made to the candidates and agents (if any) present, and if an objection is made by any such candidate or agent to his decision shall add to the endorsement the words "rejection objected to".
16. The Seanad returning officer shall keep all rejected declarations, with the attached envelopes or ballot papers as the case may be, separate from other documents.
17. When all the covering envelopes in the Seanad ballot box have been opened and their contents dealt with under the preceding Rules, the Seanad returning officer shall open each unopened ballot paper envelope and compare the number on the envelope with the number on the ballot paper and if the number on the envelope and the number on the ballot paper agree, he shall place the ballot paper in the special receptacle provided by him for ballot papers, but if the number on the envelope and the number on the ballot paper do not agree, the Seanad returning officer shall fasten such ballot paper and such envelope together and mark them "rejected."
18. As soon as the Seanad returning officer has completed the placing of the ballot papers in the said special receptacle he shall seal up in separate packets (1) the declarations of identity which accompanied any ballot papers duly accepted; (2) any rejected declarations of identity; and (3) any rejected ballot papers; in the two latter cases with the envelopes (if any) attached thereto.
19. When the Seanad returning officer has complied with the foregoing Rules of this Schedule, he shall mix together thoroughly the ballot papers contained in the special receptacle provided by him for ballot papers and shall count, in accordance with the Rules contained in the Second Schedule to this Act, the votes recorded on such ballot papers.
20. The Seanad returning officer shall endorse "rejected" on any ballot paper which he rejects as invalid and if an objection be made by any candidate or agent to his decision rejecting the ballot paper, he shall add to the said endorsement "rejection objected to ".
21. The Seanad returning officer shall so far as practicable proceed continuously with the proceedings under this Schedule subsequent to the opening of the Seanad ballot box and with the counting of the votes but may at any time suspend such proceedings or counting for refreshment, night-time, or other reason appearing to him to be sufficient for such period as he thinks proper, and whenever he does so suspend such proceedings or such counting he shall take all proper precautions for the security of the ballot papers, envelopes, votes, and other documents relating to the election.
22. The Seanad returning officer and every of his assistants taking part in any of the proceedings under this Schedule or the counting of the votes and every candidate and agent attending any of the said proceedings or the said counting shall, before so taking part or so attending, sign an undertaking in the prescribed form to preserve the secrecy of the voting.
23. As soon as the counting of the votes is completed the Seanad returning officer shall prepare in duplicate in respect of each panel a certificate in the prescribed form setting out the names of the candidates elected from such panel, the total number of votes given for each candidate (whether elected or not), every transfer of values made under this Act, and the total value credited to each candidate at the end of the count at which each such transfer took place, and such other matters as shall be prescribed, and the Seanad returning officer shall then sign the said duplicate certificate and shall send one such duplicate to the Clerk of Dáil Eireann and (except in the case of the first Seanad election) the other such duplicate to the Clerk of Seanad Eireann.
In the case of every certificate prepared under this Rule in relation to the first Seanad election, the Seanad returning officer shall, after he has sent one duplicate of such certificate to the Clerk of Dáil Eireann, retain the other duplicate thereof and shall send or deliver such other duplicate to the Clerk of Seanad Eireann as soon as may be after such Clerk has been appointed.
24. The Seanad returning officer shall also prepare and publish in the Iris Oifigiúil a statement in the prescribed form of the names of the candidates elected from each panel.
25. Upon the completion of the counting of the votes the Seanad returning officer shall seal up in separate packets the counted ballot papers and the ballot papers rejected as invalid.
26. The Seanad returning officer shall retain for six months from the close of the poll the several sealed packets of the marked copy of the electoral roll, the counterfoils of the ballot papers, the covering envelopes received after the close of the poll, the outer envelopes returned as undelivered, the accepted declarations of identity, the rejected declarations of identity, the rejected ballot papers, the counted ballot papers, and the invalid ballot papers, and shall at the end of the said period of six months destroy all the said sealed packets unless an election tribunal shall have otherwise ordered.
27. No person shall be allowed to inspect any of the said sealed packets retained by the Seanad returning officer nor any of the contents thereof save under and in accordance with an order of an election tribunal.
28. An election tribunal may authorise the inspection by any person of the contents of any of the said sealed packets as justice may require but on any such inspection care shall be taken that the mode in which any particular elector has voted shall not be discovered until he has been proved to the satisfaction of an elected tribunal to have voted and such tribunal has declared his vote to be invalid.
29. The Seanad returning officer shall comply with every order made by an election tribunal in relation to the inspection, production, and disposal of the said sealed packets.
30. Where an order is made by an election tribunal for the production by the Seanad returning officer of any document or packet of documents in his possession relating to a specified election, the production by the Seanad returning officer of such document or packet of documents in pursuance of such order shall be conclusive evidence that such document or packet of documents relates to the said specified election and the endorsement made by the Seanad returning officer in pursuance of this Schedule on any such document or packet of documents shall be conclusive evidence that such document or packet is what it is stated in such endorsement to be.
31. The production by the Seanad returning officer of a ballot paper purporting to have been used at any election and of a counterfoil marked with the same printed number and having a number marked thereon in writing shall be prima facie evidence that the person who voted by such ballot paper was the person whose number on the electoral roll relating to such election was the same as the number so marked on such counterfoil.
32. Whenever the Seanad returning officer is required by this Schedule to seal up any documents in a separate packet he shall endorse on such packet a statement of the number and character of such documents and the election to which they relate.
33. In this Schedule the expression "electoral tribunal" means a court lawfully having cognisance of petitions complaining of undue return or undue election at a Seanad election.
68. In pages 29 to 34, to delete the Second Schedule and substitute the following Schedule:—
SECOND SCHEDULE.
The Counting of the Votes.
1. The Seanad returning officer shall reject any ballot papers that are invalid.
2. The Seanad returning officer shall then ascertain the number of first preferences recorded on the ballot papers for each candidate, and shall then arrange the candidates on a list (hereinafter called "the order of preferences") in the order of the number of first preferences recorded for each candidate, beginning with the candidate for whom the greatest number of first preferences is recorded. If the number of first preferences recorded for any two or more candidates (hereinafter called "equal - candidates") is equal, the Seanad returning officer shall ascertain the number of second preferences recorded on all the ballot papers for each of the equal candidates, and shall arrange the equal candidates as amongst themselves on the order of preferences in the order of the second preferences recorded for each such candidate, beginning with the candidate for whom the greatest number of second preferences is recorded. If the number of first and second preferences recorded for any two or more equal candidates is equal, the Seanad returning officer shall, in like manner, ascertain the number of third preferences recorded on all the ballot papers for each of such last-mentioned equal candidates, and arrange such candidates on the order of preferences accordingly, and so on until all the candidates are arranged in order on the order of preferences. If the number of first, second, third, and all other preferences recorded for any two or more equal candidates is equal the Seanad returning officer shall determine by lot the order in which such candidates are to be arranged on the order of preferences.
3. The Seanad returning officer shall then arrange the valid ballot papers in parcels, according to the first preferences recorded for each candidate.
4. For the purpose of facilitating the processes prescribed by these Rules, each valid ballot paper shall be deemed to be of the value of one thousand.
5. The Seanad returning officer shall then count the number of ballot papers in each parcel, and, in accordance with the preceding rule, credit each candidate with the value of the valid ballot papers on which a first preference has been recorded for such candidate.
6. The Seanad returning officer shall then add together the values in all the parcels, and divide the full total value by a number exceeding by one the number of vacancies to be filled. The result increased by one, any fractional remainder being disregarded, shall be the value sufficient to secure the return of a candidate. This value is in this Schedule called the "quota."
7. If at the end of any count or at the end of the transfer of any parcel or sub-parcel of an excluded candidate or a candidate deemed not to be a continuing candidate, the value credited to a candidate is equal to or greater than the quota, that candidate shall, subject to the provisions of the subsequent Rules, be deemed to be elected.
8. (1) If at the end of a count the value credited to one or more candidates is equal to or greater than the quota and such candidates (if more than one) are on the same sub-panel and the number of vacancies then remaining to be filled from that sub-panel is equal to the number of candidates so credited, all such candidates shall be deemed to be elected, and the papers of the remaining candidates (if any) on the said sub-panel shall, before any other candidate is excluded or the surplus of any other candidate is transferred, be transferred in accordance with the provisions of these Rules relating to the exclusion of candidates, save that the papers of the candidate credited with the greatest value shall be transferred first and so on, and thereupon such remaining candidates shall for the purpose of these Rules be deemed not to be continuing candidates.
(2) If at the end of a count the number of candidates on a sub-panel credited with a value greater than or equal to the quota is greater than the number of vacancies then remaining to be filled from such sub-panel, only such number of those candidates as is equal to the said number of vacancies shall be deemed to be elected. The candidates who are so to be deemed to be elected shall be the candidates who have the largest surpluses. If two or more of such candidates have each an equal surplus the candidate credited with the greatest value at the earliest count at which the values credited to those candidates were unequal, or (where the values so credited were equal at all counts) the candidate who is highest in the order of preferences shall be deemed to be elected. The remaining candidates on the said sub-panel shall be deemed not to be continuing candidates and their papers shall, before any other candidate is excluded or the surplus of any other candidate is transferred, be transferred (whether the values credited to them respectively are greater, equal to, or less than the quota) in the same manner as the papers of an excluded candidate are required to be transferred under these Rules save that the papers of the candidate credited with the greatest value shall be transferred first and so on.
(3) A candidate credited with a value equal to the quota shall be deemed for the purpose of this Rule to have a surplus.
(4) If at the conclusion of any count two or more candidates are by these Rules required to be deemed not to be continuing candidates, and such candidates are not all on the same sub-panel, the papers of the candidate then credited with the greatest value shall be transferred first. If two or more of such candidates are credited with the same value the papers of the candidate credited with the greatest value at the earliest count at which the values credited to them were unequal, or (where the values so credited were equal at all counts) the candidate who is highest in the order of preferences shall be first transferred.
9. If at the end of any count the value credited to a candidate (in this Rule referred to as the elected candidate) is greater than the quota, the surplus shall be transferred to the continuing candidate or candidates indicated on the voting papers in the parcel or sub-parcel of the elected candidate according to the next available preferences recorded thereon, and the following provisions shall apply to the making of such transfer, that is to say:—
(a) if the value credited to the elected candidate arises out of original votes only, the Seanad returning officer shall examine all the ballot papers in the parcel of the elected candidate and shall arrange the transferable papers therein in sub-parcels according to the next available preferences recorded thereon and shall make a separate sub-parcel of the nontransferable papers;
(b) if the value credited to the elected candidate arises partly out of original and partly out of transferred votes or out of transferred votes only, the Seanad returning officer shall examine the ballot papers contained in the sub-parcel last received by the elected candidate and shall arrange the transferable papers therein in further sub-parcels according to the next available preferences recorded thereon and shall make a separate sub-parcel of the nontransferable papers;
(c) in either of the cases referred to in the foregoing paragraphs (a) and (b) the Seanad returning officer shall ascertain the number of ballot papers and their total value in each sub-parcel of transferable papers and in the sub-parcel of non-transferable papers;
(d) if the total value of the papers in all the sub-parcels of transferable papers is equal to or less than the said surplus, the Seanad returning officer shall transfer each sub-parcel of transferable papers to the continuing candidate indicated thereon as the voter's next available preference, each paper being transferred at the value at which it was received by the elected candidate, and (where the said total value is less than the said surplus) the nontransferable papers shall be set aside as not effective, at a value which is equal to the difference between the said surplus and the said total value;
(e) if the total value of the papers in all the sub-parcels of transferable papers is greater than the said surplus the Seanad returning officer shall transfer each paper in such sub-parcel of transferable papers to the continuing candidate indicated thereon as the voter's next available preference, and the value at which each paper shall be transferred shall be ascertained by dividing the surplus by the total number of transferable papers, fractional remainders being disregarded except that the consequential loss of value shall be noted on the result sheet;
(f) a surplus which arises on the completion of any count shall be dealt with before a surplus which arises at a subsequent count;
(g) when two or more surpluses arise out of the same count the largest shall be first dealt with and the others shall be dealt with in the order of their magnitude;
(h) if two or more candidates have an equal surplus arising out of the same count, the surplus of the candidate credited with the greatest value at the earliest count at which the values credited to those candidates were unequal shall be first dealt with, and where the values credited to such candidates were equal at all counts, the Seanad returning officer shall deal first with the surplus of the candidate who is highest in the order of preferences.
10. If at the end of any count no candidate has a surplus and one or more vacancies remain unfilled, the Seanad returning officer shall exclude the candidate (in this Rule referred to as the excluded candidate) then credited with the lowest value and shall transfer his papers to the continuing candidates respectively indicated on the ballot papers in the parcel or sub-parcels of the excluded candidate as the voter's next available preference, and shall credit such continuing candidates with the value of the papers so transferred, and the following rules shall apply to the making of such transfer, that is to say:—
(a) the parcel containing original votes shall first be transferred, the transfer value of each paper being one thousand;
(b) the sub-parcels containing transferred votes shall then be transferred in the order in which and at the value of which the excluded candidate obtained them;
(c) for the purpose of determining whether a candidate is a continuing candidate the transfer of each parcel or sub-parcel shall be regarded as a separate count;
(d) in the transfer of each parcel or sub-parcel a separate sub-parcel shall be made of the non-transferable papers which shall be set aside at the value at which the excluded candidate obtained them;
(e) if, when a candidate has to be excluded under this Rule, two or more candidates are each then credited with the same value and are lowest regard shall be had to the total value of original votes credited to each of those candidates and the candidate with the smallest such total value shall be excluded, and where such total values are equal regard shall be had to the total value of votes credited to each of those candidates at the earliest count at which they had unequal values, and the candidate with the smallest such total value at that count shall be excluded, and if those candidates were each credited with the same total value of votes at all counts that one of those candidates who is lowest in the order of preferences shall be excluded;
(f) if the number of continuing candidates on a sub-panel is equal to the number of vacancies remaining to be filled from such sub-panel, this Rule shall cease to apply in respect of such continuing candidates.
11. On every transfer made under these Rules, each sub-parcel of papers transferred shall be placed on top of the parcel or sub-parcel (if any) of papers of the candidate to whom the transfer is made and that candidate shall be credited with the value ascertained in accordance with these Rules of the papers so transferred to him.
12. If, when there is no surplus to be transferred and, by reason of the number of candidates a l r e a d y excluded, the number of vacancies remaining to be filled from each sub-panel is equal to the number of continuing candidates on such sub-panels respectively, all such continuing candidates shall thereupon be deemed to be elected.
13. At the end of every count the Seanad returning officer shall record on a result sheet in the prescribed from the total of the values credited to each candidate at the end of that count and also the value of the nontransferable papers not effective on that count and the loss of value on that count owing to disregard of fractions.
14. While the votes are being counted the ballot papers shall so far as it is practicable be kept face upwards and all proper precautions shall be taken by the Seanad returning officer for preventing the numbers on the backs of the ballot papers being seen.
15. In these Rules—
(1) the expression "continuing candidate" means any candidate not deemed to be elected and not excluded;
(2) the expression "first preference" means the figure "1" standing alone, the expression "second preference" means the figure "2" standing alone in succession to the figure "1", and the expression "third preference" means the figure "3" standing alone in succession to the figures "1" and "2" set opposite the name of any candidate, and so on;
(3) the expression "next available preference" means a second or subsequent preference recorded in consecutive numerical order for a continuing candidate, the preference next in order on the ballot paper for candidates already deemed to be elected or excluded being ignored.
(4) the expression "transferable paper" means a ballot paper on which following a first preference a second or subsequent preference is recorded in numerical order for a continuing candidate;
(5) the expression "non-transferable paper" means a ballot paper—
(a) on which no second or subsequent preference is recorded for a continuing candidate; or
(b) on which the names of two or more candidates (whether continuing or not) are marked with the same number, and are next in order of preference, or
(c) on which the name of the candidate next in order of preference (whether continuing or not) is marked by a number not following consecutively after some other number on the voting paper or by two or more numbers, or
(d) which is void for uncertainty;
(6) the expression "original vote" in regard to any candidate means a vote derived from a ballot paper on which a first preference is recorded for that candidate;
(7) the expression "transferred vote" in regard to any candidate means a vote derived from a ballot paper on which a second or subsequent preference is recorded for that candidate;
(8) the expression "surplus" means the number by which the total value of the votes, original and transferred, credited to any candidate exceeds the quota;
(9) the expression "count" means (as the context may require) either—
(a) all the operations involved in the counting of the first preferences recorded for candidates; or
(b) all the operations involved in the transfer of the surplus of a selected candidate; or
(e) all the operations involved in the transfer of the votes of an excluded candidate;
(d) the transfer in pursuance of these rules of the papers of a candidate deemed not to be a continuing candidate;
(10) the expression "deemed to be elected" means deemed to be elected for the purpose of counting, but without prejudice to the declaration of the result of the election;
(11) the expression "determine by lot" means determine in accordance with the following directions, that is to say:—
the names of the candidates concerned having been written on similar slips of paper, and the slips having been folded so as to prevent identification and mixed and drawn at random, the candidates concerned shall as amongst themselves be arranged on the order of preferences in the order in which the slips containing their names are drawn, beginning with the candidate whose name is on the slip drawn first.
I will ask the Minister for Agriculture to deal with the Schedules.
I want some information on the Second Schedule. I do not know whether the President expects to get this Bill to-night or not. If we are going to get any treatment like what we got on the last night the Bill was before the Dáil, from the Minister for Agriculture, he is not getting it to-night. I advise him to deal with the Bill. I am quite willing to let him have it if I get a full explanation of what the Schedules mean. I would have no objection to the Schedules going through but from the experience I had already I wasted three and a half hours when the Minister for Agriculture was in charge of the Bill. I am sorry for this. If the President is willing to risk it, I am willing.
Risk what?
To risk the fact that an explanation will not be given.
The Minister for Agriculture is substituting for me because he knows a great deal more about the matters involved in the Schedules than I do.
I am satisfied.
Does the Deputy want me to explain the Schedules or does he want to start by asking questions?
Is the First Schedule purely machinery?
It is all machinery in the First Schedule.
What about the Second Schedule?
The Second Schedule gives the legal interpretation.
Excuse me, that is the difficulty. We have panels, quotas and postal voting bodies. The House has never been able up to the present to know what this particular thing means. I suggest that we ought to be told how the voting is done.
Can I take it that amendment No. 67 is passed, or are Nos. 67 and 68 still under discussion?
Better take the two Schedules together.
Amendment No. 67 is purely machinery. The Second Schedule sets out how proportional representation can be applied to this particular form of election. As Deputies are aware, we must elect a certain number of those nominated from inside, and a certain number nominated outside and, in addition, we must elect a certain number on each sub-panel. There are ten sub-panels. Various things may crop up. One thing that might happen is dealt with earlier in the Schedules. Suppose there were five to be elected to a sub-panel you might have a surplus of seven or eight on the first count, and we have to deal with that situation.
Let me put my difficulty to the Minister. There are 350 electors. Do they vote as a solid body, irrespective of panels?
Yes.
There is a quota mentioned. I take it that is got by dividing 350 by 44.
Yes.
Therefore, we may take it that, roughly, the quota will be nine.
You disregard the panels for the quota.
Take the nominating bodies to the sub-panel for agriculture. Suppose there are ten people on that sub-panel and that they get 15 votes each.
That is the first point that arises, and I think the Deputy will find that is dealt with in Rule 8.
I confess it is not very easy to follow.
That is the first difficulty that we were up against. Suppose, as might easily happen, that more than the number required to be elected get a surplus in any count. Let us see what would happen in that case, taking the example given by the Deputy, and supposing that we want five. Of those nominated from outside to the agricultural panel, there are, say, nine nominated to the sub-panel and they all get over the quota. What we do in that case is, we take the five at the top, and say that these five are deemed to be elected. The remaining four are non-continuing candidates and, according to this, they will first be eliminated before we go any further.
Where is it laid down that they will be non-continuing candidates?
In Rule 8 (4).
Is everyone who gets the quota deemed to be elected?
No. It may happen that a person who gets more than the quota in the first or in any count will not be elected.
Where is the provision for ruling out all except the first five?
Rule 8 (2) states:—
If at the end of a count the number of candidates on a sub-panel credited with a value greater than or equal to the quota is greater than the number of vacancies then remaining to be filled from such sub-panel, only such number of those candidates as is equal to the said number of vacancies shall be deemed to be elected. The candidates who are so to be deemed to be elected shall be the candidates who have the largest surpluses. If two or more of such candidates have each an equal surplus the candidate credited with the greatest value at the earliest count at which the values credited to those candidates were unequal, or (where the values so credited were equal at all counts) the candidate who is highest in the order of preferences shall be deemed to be elected.
The point that I want to make is this, that where this system will differ from proportional representation, as we know it, is that the non-continuing candidates will be the first to be eliminated, and that it is the highest rather than the lowest candidates who will get out first.
Where do the people who have not got the quota come in?
When the panel is full. Supposing A, B, C, D, and E are elected on one panel, then, so far as that panel is concerned, the others, F, G, H, I, J, are, so to speak, dead men. F is first eliminated, but his votes cannot go to G, H, I, J.
The position, I take it, is that while some will get elected on 20 votes, others who get only two votes may also be elected, but that in most cases candidates will have to get the quota.
I think that is quite possible at the end.
In the case of some of the panels, none of the candidates may reach the quota. Do you simply treat the panels as one body the whole time?
Yes.
Is that not a very peculiar result from proportional representation?
I think it is the only way it could be worked in order to bring in this principle of voting for the whole lot together.
What is the reason for bringing this principle in?
It was brought in because I think this was one of the things that there was agreement on.
There was no agreement from this side on it.
Well, the suggestion was made and it was made in order to give minority Parties better representation.
I submit that this method does great violence to the sacred principles of proportional representation and that it is very hard for anybody to follow it. I defy any of the gentlemen who are solidly in support of the measure to explain what this provision means. The general public will be in the same position. We are doing a certain amount of violence to the principles of proportional representation.
I do not think so.
You may have the peculiar position that, in the case of certain panels, people who do not get the quota will be elected, while in the case of others people who get double the quota cannot get elected. On some panels you will have people getting elected with less than the quota. Surely that is doing violence to the principle of proportional representation. That is done to give a certain weighting, if I may use the word, to minorities.
I do not think so.
The word "weighting" seems to frighten the Minister off, but the fact is so, that in this you are doing violence to the principles of proportional representation. This is being done in an extremely complicated fashion. Let us at any rate recognise the fact that small bodies ought to pull their weight.
The Deputy, I am sure, would say twice as much as their weight.
I am prepared to give way so as to afford an opportunity to the Deputy to explain to the House what the fraction here is.
Dr. Ryan rose.
I am not giving way to the Minister. I simply give way to the Deputy to explain.
We do not usually take invitations from you.
Quite. I did not think the Deputy would. I thought that he meant something by his interruption, but it was evidently just pure interruption for the sake of interruption, and nothing else.
I said twice as much.
And I asked you for an explanation of the fraction.
You should know.
Order.
I did not interrupt the Deputy. I did not even interrupt his silence when he was asked to explain. Now, when the proposal was made to do the thing openly, I thought that a couple of the Ministers would get heart disease, but as long as it is done a little sub rosa, everybody is satisfied.
Amendments agreed to.
Amendments reported.
When is it proposed to take the next and Final Stages? To-morrow?
Yes.
What does that mean?
The Report Stage proper.
I think that what has been arranged is that the Report Stage should be taken formally to-morrow, and then the Fifth Stage also.
Is that the arrangement?
There may be minor arrangements to-morrow.
There is an arrangement to finish the Seanad Bill to-morrow, and the Housing Bill, and to have a three hours' adjournment debate. There is an agreement by all Parties to that.
And the Consequential Provisions Bill?
Oh, no. We have given them that long ago. We do not want to have another infliction on us by the Minister for Education.
Debate adjourned until to-morrow on the Report Stage of the Bill.
Is any other business being taken?
Can we take this Fresh Meat Bill now? However, I do not want to press it on the House.
I think it might be better to adjourn.
We do not mind if you take the Fresh Meat Bill now.
What stage of the Bill has been reached?
The Committee Stage.
This is an ordinary Bill, I presume? It is not a Bill sponsored by the President, and therefore we may take it that it is the Committee Stage in the ordinary sense?
Yes.
There is an amendment handed in by Deputy Bennett. It is on Section 2.