Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 30 Mar 1938

Vol. 70 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Vote 63—Posts and Telegraphs.

Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. Traynor)

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £1,494,025 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1939, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Puist agus Telegrafa (45 agus 46 Vict., c. 74; 8 Edw. 7, c. 48; 1 agus 2 Geo. 5, c. 26; na hAchtanna Telegrafa, 1863 go 1928, etc.); agus Seirbhísi áirithe eile atá fé riaradh na hOifige sin.

That a sum not exceeding £1,494,025 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1939, for the Salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (45 and 46 Vict., c. 74; 8 Edw. 7, c. 48; 1 and 2 Geo. 5, c. 26; the Telegraph Acts, 1863 to 1928, etc.); and of certain other Services administered by that Office.

The estimated total Post Office expenditure for the year 1938-39 is £2,307,025, being an increase of £91,140 on the estimate for last year. Of this increase £73,000 is attributable to the increase in the cost of living bonus, incremental and staffing changes, and the fact that there are 53 pay weeks in the current financial year.

The financial position of the Department as ascertained from the Commercial Accounts for the year 1936-37 discloses the following facts:—

Postal Services — Income, £1,667,811; expenditure, £1,435,589; surplus £232,222.

Telephone Service — Income, £482,279; expenditure, £408,446; surplus, £73,833.

Telegraph Services - Income, £190,700; expenditure, £294,963; deficit, £104,263.

It will be seen that on the postal and telephone services there was a surplus of £306,055 as against a deficit of £104,263 on the telegraph service, leaving a net profit on the combined services of £201,792.

I think the Dáil should have a brief account of the volume of work undertaken by the Department, and I give the following figures for the principal businesses done during the past year:—

Letters, posted and delivered	418,000,000
Parcels, posted and delivered	11,000,000
Telegrams dealt with	3,167,300
Telephone calls dealt with	32,170,000
Postal Orders issued and paid	13,732,000
Old Age Pensions paid	7,222,000
Widows and Orphans Pensions paid	1,261,000
Savings Bank transactions	926,239

Deputies will remember that last year I promised that the question of extending delivery on rural posts operating on less than six days a week would be undertaken. When speaking I anticipated that about 600 of the three-day posts would be increased to six-day frequency, and I am glad to say that consideration of this matter is now almost completed and to date some 950 posts have been improved at an additional annual cost of £16,960.

Continuous pressure had been made for a number of years for the introduction of such arrangements as would enable the bulk of the staff employed by the Department to enjoy Christmas Day with their families. Last year I decided, as an experimental measure, that delivery of correspondence should be suspended on Christmas Day. I am happy to say that, thanks to the co-operation of the public in responding to the request to "post early," coupled with the special efforts made by the staff, the experiment was a complete success. With the exception of those employed on essential telegraph and telephone services, the whole of the Post Office staff were thus enabled to spend Christmas Day with their families.

Automatic stamp vending machines are now installed at more than 30 offices throughout the country and as this facility is largely availed of by the public I propose to erect similar machines at ten additional post offices in the provinces. There are 128 motor and 33 horsed services performed by contract and the Department possesses a fleet of 72 motor mail vans for the operation of other similar services. As regards overseas mails, the ports of Cóbh, Galway, and Dublin were used to the greatest possible extent during the past year, when 17,500 bags were despatched and over 32,500 bags were received through these ports.

Air mail transport for long distance letter mails shows further development, and, in addition to the air surcharge services, is now utilised as the normal means of transport, without prepayment of air fees to Africa, Palestine, India, Ceylon, Malay States, etcetera. The question of utilising similar transport for the conveyance of letter correspondence between this country and Great Britain, where such a course would accelerate delivery, is under consideration conjointly with the British Post Office.

The development of the telephone service, following on the reductions of tariffs on the 1st July, 1936, continued at an accelerated rate last year. Although it was anticipated that the reduction of charges would have led to a considerable reduction in revenue it has been found that, as a result of increase in the number of subscribers and traffic, the revenue for 1937-38, which is estimated to reach £497,220, will be in excess of the revenue for the year preceding the reductions.

Extension of the telephone service will for some years to come continue to necessitate heavy capital expenditure and as the capital funds of £500,000 provided by the Telephone Capital Act, 1936, will be exhausted this year, it will be necessary to ask the Dáil for further borrowing powers through a new Telephone Capital Act. Capital expenditure during the year 1936-37 amounted to £117,438, for the year 1937-38 it reached £268,000, and the programme planned for 1938-39 will involve a further sum of over £300,000.

Telephone exchanges increased from 770 to 789; 28 new public call offices were opened, bringing the total number to 1,478. Subscribers' lines increased by 1,654 to 25,494. Telephone traffic also showed an appreciable increase. Local calls rose to over 29,000,000, an increase of 713,000, and trunk calls increased by over 450,000, to 2,470,000. To cope with the growth in trunk traffic, 83 additional internal trunk circuits were provided last year.

An increase in the number of circuits and the extension of the system of "carrier" working on the main routes has greatly improved the general standard of the trunk service both as regards delay and quality of transmission. A further large number of circuits is planned for the current year. A new direct cross-Channel cable was laid in September last, but owing to unavoidable delay in the installation of the terminal equipment at both ends the number of working circuits in the cable is as yet only four. These have, however, enabled an appreciable improvement in the cross-Channel "day" service to be effected, but at night, owing to heavy traffic at the cheap rates, delay is still considerable. In view of the continued increase in cross-Channel traffic, it has been decided that a second new cable should be laid in the course of the present year. When this second cable is in service, probably towards the end of the year, there will be at least 16 direct cross-Channel circuits and a practically "no delay" service will be ensured at all times.

During the past year there has been an appreciable extension of the automatic system in Dublin. The capacity of the Central Exchange in Crown Alley has been increased. A new automatic exchange has been opened in Clontarf, and the Drumcondra area has also been converted to automatic working. Conversion of the Dundrum area will be carried through in a month or two. Work on the erection of a new building for an automatic exchange in Dún Laoghaire to serve the existing Dún Laoghaire, Blackrock, Dalkey and Foxrock areas, which was delayed owing to the building trade stoppage last year, is proceeding, and the transfer to the new exchange will, it is anticipated, be carried out within a year. It is hoped also that the installation of an automatic exchange at Cork will be commenced this year and that the change-over will be effected next year.

During October last, when the transfer of large numbers of subscribers from the Merrion Street and Ship Street exchanges to the Central Exchange at Crown Alley were being carried out, a certain amount of congestion was occasioned in the latter exchange, resulting in delay and, I regret, some unavoidable inconvenience to subscribers. Modification and extension of equipment have since taken place, and the service is in consequence materially improved. Further additional equipment is being provided, and when the work of installation has been completed I am hopeful that service will be of an entirely satisfactory order. An experimental rural semiautomatic telephone system embracing the existing exchange areas of Malahide, Donabate, Rush and Lusk will probably be installed during the coming autumn. It is hoped that this experiment will help to solve the problem of providing a continuous 24-hour service economically at small exchanges.

A scheme is at present under consideration for the provision of communication with a number of islands off the West and South-West coast. The results of detailed surveys are being considered for the purpose of determining whether communication could be adequately afforded by radio in all cases, or whether in particular instances cable working will be necessary. Consideration of the matter is being expedited as far as possible. It is hoped that it will be practicable this year to replace the telephone cable between the mainland and Inishmore, Aran Islands, which by reason of damage has been out of use for some time past. In the meantime a temporary wireless telegraph installation is functioning.

The financial position of the Telegraph Service continues to be unsatisfactory. Although the traffic increased by 81,000 messages last year, the increase was not sufficient to cover the loss of revenue resulting from the reduction of charges in June last. In this connection I would like to refer to the suggestion made by various Deputies during the debate on last year's Estimates, that the number of words covered by the minimum charge of 1/- should be increased from nine to 12. This concession would cost an additional £10,600 per annum, and in view of the present deficit in the service I regret I would not be justified in supporting the proposal.

Civil aviation and meteorological services are controlled by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, but my Department undertakes responsibility for the installation, operation and maintenance of the radio services associated with them. The wireless station already existing in Baldonnel serves provisionally the purpose of the cross-Channel air services. The permanent station in connection with these services will eventually be located at Collinstown when the municipal airport there is completed, but the temporary station at Baldonnel will be retained to serve as an emergency station on occasions when it may be necessary to use the Baldonnel aerodrome as an alternative to Collinstown.

The provisional radio installation erected at the Shannon air base to deal with 1937 test flights is being augmented. Hitherto only one shortwave transmitter and one medium wave transmitter were available to work to aircraft and to the terminal station in Newfoundland. Two separate stations situated about three miles apart are now being provided, one to work to the terminal station at Newfoundland and the other equipped with facilities for quick changes of wavelength to work to aircraft. A blind landing beam system on ultra short waves is to be installed at Rhynanna Aerodrome. Provision is also made for the completion of the installation of direction-finding apparatus on medium waves, and of a blind landing beam system on ultra short waves at the municipal aerodrome at Collinstown. A sum of £7,000 is included for the provision of radio equipment which will probably be necessary to airports to be established at Cork and Galway.

The rapid spread and development of telephones is also reflected in the activities of the Post Office stores branch. The value of the contracts placed by the stores branch last year was approximately £100,000 in excess of that of the previous year. In this connection, it is interesting to note that over 50 per cent. of the contracts placed were for articles manufactured or assembled in this country.

The stores branch also undertakes multifarious duties for other Government and quasi-Government Departments. Among the purchases made for other Government Departments were plant and machinery for the establishment of the toy factory at Elly Bay; forestry tools and material required in connection with reafforestation schemes; plant and stores for the establishment and extension of the meteorological services; and railway materials required in connection with the production of machine-made turf in Kerry and Offaly.

The Commercial Account figures given in the first part of my statement are for the last completed year, 1936-37. Figures for the current financial year will not be available for several months. It is possible, however, to make a close estimate which shows that the profit for the year is not likely to exceed £100,000. The reduction of profit is mainly due to increased expenditure in the provision of new facilities and increased staff costs.

Mr. Dockrell

The Minister has given us a very comprehensive survey of his Department, but there are some comments I wish to make. With regard to the Post Office Savings Bank, I made the suggestion last year that it should be modernised and brought into line with the ideas of people who feel that they should be able to get money practically at call. I think that with very little trouble the Minister should be able to bring this service up to date. If not, he ought to scrap it. I was very glad to hear him say, with regard to telephones, that arrangements had been made for more cross-Channel lines and that they would be in working order this year. I know that a delay of an hour for a telephone call across-Channel is not unusual, and the Minister can realise that he must be losing a very substantial revenue from that source, because it is not everybody who can wait for an hour and then find that he cannot get the connection he wants.

With regard to the telegraph service, the Minister said that if the allowance in respect of words in a telegram were extended, he would lose so much more money on that service. It is very hard to calculate the number of people who would send a telegram if they were allowed 12 words and who do not send a telegram at all—under the present system. That, however, is only a small point because, to my mind, the position in regard to the telegraph system is that, with the extension of the telephone service, most people will use the telephone, and if they can get the instantaneous service of which the Minister spoke, it will have a still greater effect on the telegraph service. I notice that the St. Andrew Street Post Office is still not operating. I spoke about this subject some time ago, but if the authorities are considering some aspect of town-planning, or thinking about the lay-out of the buildings, it is time very well spent. The Minister might, however, deal with the point.

With regard to the carriage of mails, the Minister says that the Department is considering conveying the ordinary mails by air. I think that an excellent idea, and the commercial community certainly would welcome it. The service might be so speeded up that the Minister might get the whole of the extra expense in increased revenue, but, at the same time, I think he ought to consider it over a period of years. There is no doubt that if the conveyance of mails could be considerably speeded up, it would be a very great service to the commercial community and to everybody else who uses the mails.

There are some remarks I want to make with regard to the cross-Channel mails and the Dun Laoghaire service. Some time ago the Minister was approached, and he pointed out that the Post Office here was not only interested in this matter but that the Board of Works were interested because they owned the harbour, and that also the British Post Office or British Government — I forget which he sheltered behind — had their say in the conveyance of the mails. There is a further point in that connection which I want to draw to the attention of the Government. There is a very great hope, which we all echo, that transatlantic air services will come to this country. They will come ultimately, and it is only a question of when and how they will come. When they come, there will probably be radiating services from this country and, in the opinion of most people, there will be a very considerable increase in the number of passengers who will use the ordinary rail route to Dublin and, from there, to England. In view of that, I think the Minister ought to look at the Dun Laoghaire-Holyhead route to London from the special point of view of making it as improved and as up to date as possible, because there is no doubt that the traffic I speak of will go to the best-equipped line and the best-equipped route. Many people who may hesitate as between air and rail, if they find up-to-date rail services available, may decide to go by rail. In view of the time which will be taken by the necessary negotiations between the Great Southern Railways, the Board of Works, the Minister's Department and the Post and Telegraphs Department across the water, I urge the Minister to open up negotiations and, at any rate, to get the length of having the scheme on paper and gone into, because it would give a great deal of employment and provide a service over here which we should like to be able to compare with any other similar service. It would also benefit tourist traffic, and from that point of view alone would probably justify very careful investigation.

Mr. Minch

On the last occasion on which this Vote was discussed, I referred to the out-of-date and old-fashioned instruments which the rural areas seem to inherit when more up-to-date instruments are installed in cities like Cork, Dublin, Waterford and Limerick, and I asked the Minister to give consideration to this complaint as it was a genuine grievance. I am sorry to say that we still inherit the old machinery which is now not good enough for the people or for commercial users in the cities. One finds in parts of the country at present the old pre-War bell system of telephone, a telephone that is noisy and, in my opinion, out of date. I suggest that the country is just as important as the city. Over and over again distinguished visitors come to this country, either on business or travelling as tourists. Their adverse comments are not in connection with the quickness or slowness in getting through. On the contrary they comment favourably on the personal service they receive. What they comment adversely on is the out-of-date and inadequate system of telephone machinery which we use. I have heard a good deal about expediting service and about foreign traffic and cross-Channel traffic. I trust that this time at all events the Minister and his chief officials will listen to the appeal we are making for a speeding up of the telephone service and bringing it in every respect up to date.

This brings me to the next matter, and that is with regard to the slow delivery of letters in many parts of the country. Whether the reason is because of understaffing or some other cause I do not know, but I want now to complain that letters are not receiving the quickest possible dispatch in country districts. After all, we are just as important as the people in the city who are looking for improved cross-Channel services. Over and over again we find that letters posted in the regulation time in rural post office boxes are not delivered the following morning. Sometimes an interval of 48 hours elapses before these letters reach a destination very often of not more than 15 miles. I ask the Minister not to look upon these complaints of mine as being made for the sake of criticism. I know that I am speaking for those who have genuine grievances.

Then again there is the position where people may meet with accidents or other trouble along the main roads at night. They find there is no possibility whatever of getting into telephonic communication because of the fact that in a large part of the country the telephone offices close down at 10 o'clock. Is there not a possibility of having along the main roads a telephone kiosk where one could go and put a telephone call through? This is very important in the case where medical aid is required, in sudden illnesses or accidents. I think there is no doubt that in those parts of the country where there is fairly heavy traffic and where even late at night a certain movement to and fro along the roads is taking place, telephone services should be available and people should not have to travel long distances on bad nights in order to secure aid of one kind or another. When one does come to a town or city in the country and one has to knock people up, one finds that considerable delays are involved. I would suggest to the Minister to have an impartial investigation along these lines made into the service, and to find out whether additional telephonic services might not be made available in country districts.

Then there is the question of the 10 o'clock closing down of telephone offices. In certain towns new industries have been started. There are in these places sometimes night shifts, but after 10 o'clock one cannot get any telephone calls at all, even of a local nature much less the getting of long distance calls to Dublin or elsewhere. I think the time has now arrived, in this year 1938, when country towns should be put on a level with their neighbouring towns. What is the difference between Athy and Carlow? There are, of course, other towns similar to Athy where after 10 o'clock one cannot have any communication at all by telephone. Is it a question of cost or is it a question of getting a guaranteed local number of subscribers? I have seen a memorandum filled up by numerous new subscribers. I have been given to understand that if a certain number could be secured a night service would operate. That memorandum has been sent in months ago, but yet no result has followed so far. To-day the telephone is of tremendous importance. This is the case particularly in rural districts four or five miles distant from towns. In these places telephones are becoming from month to month more numerous, but in the case of urgency or sudden sickness, for the reasons I have stated, they are very often useless. At night time nervous people are more susceptible to sudden illnesses than in the day.

Another complaint is that new subscribers have received and are being given better terms from the rental point of view than the old subscribers. I am not stating that as a definite grievance, because it seems so absurd that it can scarcely be true. Yet I have been told that telephones are being put in and extensions made on better terms than those given by the post office to the old subscribers. I am told that they are given also at a lesser rental.

My last criticism is with regard to the long, slow, wearisome waits when one wants a new telephone put in. Is the post office under-staffed? I do not know, but it is a fact that weeks run into months before an extension is carried out from one room to another in the same house. There is still greater delay in getting a telephone in to a business house, even to a house very shortly removed from the post office main lines.

I expect that in fairness I should give credit where credit is due. I might delay the House by giving that credit, but it is not necessary, because all of us who use the telephone on a large scale know how very courteous the operators are. Under the circumstances in which the operators work this is very creditable. We know that again and again irritating people use the telephone, and one knows how hard it is for the operators to remain courteous towards such people. I must say that on all occasions I have met with all the courtesy that one might expect.

One very persistent complaint about the use of the telephone is in connection with trunk calls, 30 or 40 miles distant. One often finds a buzz and an indistinctness for which the officials can give no explanation. I think the Minister should inaugurate a better system of inspection. Personal calls might be made on the subscribers asking them if they had any grievances in connection with the use of the telephone. In these days when one hears so much talk about good service that would be a proper thing for the Minister to inaugurate. The Post Office officials could, in their own districts, where the telephone is used on a large scale, investigate whether satisfaction is given, and suggest improvements that might be effected. Those who feel inclined to put in a telephone or to use a telephone would be greatly encouraged by these old users who could say so much in praise of the telephone or who, like myself, might offer a little criticism of it.

Mr. O'Donovan

I should like to draw attention to the conditions under which telegrams are delivered in country towns. I do not know whether the same system obtains in other towns but recently a case was brought to my attention where, in the town of Clonakilty, a telegram was sent to a professional gentleman, a barrister, and was laid in the office for two hours or perhaps longer. It was a very important message but it remained there until a second wire came along cancelling the first, and both were then delivered to this professional gentleman. The absence of a telegraph messenger in an important office like Clonakilty is something that is to be deplored, leading as it does to neglect of this character. This gentleman wrote to the Department complaining of the treatment which he had received. I think he lost a very important case and a fee because of the delay in the delivery of the telegram. The reply he received was that the delay was due to inability to obtain a casual messenger to undertake delivery owing to the inclemency of the weather. This gentleman lives within 100 yards of the post office and surely it would be the postmaster's business, if he had not a casual messenger, to see that an important communication like that was delivered. I hope that some remedy will be found for cases of that kind. I do not know whether such cases arise in other towns like Clonakilty but, if they do, it is a matter which calls for immediate remedy.

I have also the case of a man living out in the country, two miles away, connected by phone with the office. If he gets a wire to Clonakilty it is phoned out immediately to his home. He also has an office in the town. The postmaster, I am sure, knows that very well, but sometime when a wire comes it is left there, unless some neighbour calls into the post office and the post office authorities give it to this neighbour. I do not think it is proper that the business of the post office, particularly in regard to wires, should be carried on in that way. Wires generally deal with urgent matters, and I think that it is very unfair and very bad business on the part of the post office authorities to allow them to lie in the office in this way. I must say that I have no grievance myself in this regard. I live two miles away and I find that wires have always been delivered to me in reasonable time, but the two cases which I have mentioned have been brought to my notice within the past week. We do not want to have any recurrence of delays of that kind in future.

Mr. Norton

I listened with interest to the Minister's statement introducing this Estimate. There is one point, only one point, on which I can congratulate him, and that is on the courage and imagination which the Post Office, and the Minister in particular, displayed in suspending postal deliveries on the 25th and 26th of December last. It is not often that the Post Office displays much imagination in its administrative activities. It is very rarely indeed that it can be induced to depart from long-established practice. It is an essentially conservative institution. It keeps on doing in 1938 the things it did in 1937 and thinks that because these things were right in 1937, they should also be right in 1938. The longer the Minister is associated with the Post Office, the more he will find that conservative spirit pervading all its actions and outlook. When, therefore, the Post Office decided to suspend the postal deliveries on December 25th and 26th, 1937, believe me, the Post Office did a revolutionary thing that would have made many of its past Ministers and its past administrators turn in their graves. Indeed, I am not sure that it did not cause a very profound shock to the nervous system of many of its present administrators. I hope the success of the experiment — and it was a gigantic success from the public point of view — will induce the Minister and his Department to realise that changes can be made without bringing about the catastrophic results which the Post Office sometimes fears will accrue if a change is made.

On last Christmas Eve, letters and parcels were delivered, which in previous Christmasses, with the type of organisation then in existence, would have lain in the Post Office to be delivered on Christmas Day or on the days following. On last Christmas Eve there was no correspondence left over to be delivered. All correspondence posted in time was delivered before Christmas and the public had the experience of being able to receive their Christmas greetings before the festival instead of receiving stale greetings, as was the common experience in other years, after the festival has passed. I hope, as I have said, that the success of that experiment will encourage the Minister to be bold and courageous in other spheres. I feel sure the success of the experiment will ensure that never again will the staff be dragged from their beds at three or four o'clock for the purpose of delivering mail on Christmas Day, which it was demonstrated last year could be delivered quite easily before Christmas if the public only posted a little earlier.

Mr. T. Kelly

Christmas morning did not seem to be the same though.

Mr. Norton

Deputy Kelly says that Christmas morning did not seem to be the same. It certainly did not seem the same for the people who were exempt from work on that day. I do not know what time Deputy Kelly gets up.

Mr. Kelly

Quite early.

Mr. Norton

Because he cannot sleep, I suppose. If Deputy Kelly were in sleeping form, he would not like to be dragged out of bed at three o'clock in the morning on Christmas Day.

Mr. Kelly

I only made one remark.

Mr. Norton

I am only trying to make the Deputy realise what a very beneficial change this has been. If the Deputy were called from his bed at three or four o'clock on Christmas morning to assist in the delivery of letters which could have been delivered a day or two previously, with proper organisation, I am sure he would not be such an admirer of the old system. I am sure if he were a victim of the public laziness in that regard, he would view the matter from a different standpoint. The Minister referred in the course of his speech to the fact that, in the course of the past year, daily deliveries had been restored on some 950 posts at an additional annual cost of £16,960. I think the Minister indicated last year that it was proposed to restore daily deliveries in the case of 600 posts at an estimated cost of £20,000. The Minister has been able to do 50 per cent. more than he anticipated, at a cost of 20 per cent. less than he anticipated. There are still a number of routes in the country, probably about 250 to 300, where the services are less than of daily frequency. As the Minister has not spent the £20,000 which he budgeted for last year, I should like him to go into that question with a view to increasing the frequency further, and thus give all members of the community liable to pay taxes equally the benefit of daily deliveries in the country.

Quite apart from the social benefits to the community, the proposal to restore daily deliveries has a natural interest for part-time employees in the Post Office. The effect of restoring the daily deliveries has been to create a number of full-time duties out of part-time duties and has also added substantially to the hours of attendance of part-time officers. The Minister, therefore, could feel sure that the restoration of daily deliveries will not only be appreciated by the community, but that the expenditure of the money would, in addition to the benefits provided for the community, enable the hours of attendance and, consequently, the wages of part-time officers to be increased. I hope the Minister, when replying, will indicate that as the money, which it was anticipated would be spent, has not in fact been spent, it will now be utilised to carry the experiment still farther, so that we can get back to the condition of affairs which existed prior to 1923, namely, a daily delivery in all areas throughout the country.

It is retrogressive in this age to be talking about postal deliveries on three days a week. The Minister talked about sending letters more quickly to the other end of the world, to India, Malay, Ceylon, Africa, etc., and the desire apparently is to expedite the delivery of letters from here to these places. But, here at home there is a problem much more important, and that is delivering more speedily the letters to our own people and the letters of our own people here, who provide the taxation necessary to run the Minister's Department. It seems to me to be a vicious contradiction to be considering how we can deliver letters more speedily to India, while at home we are quite satisfied to allow about 300 rural postal districts to get their letters on three days per week instead of every day. I hope the Minister will bear in mind the anomalous situation which is being created by, apparently, one side of his head not knowing what the other side is doing.

The Minister talked about the telephone service and opened for us a picture of considerable development in that connection. As everybody knows who has occasion to use the telephone, the service is rapidly expanding, and a new and complicated type of mechanism, in the form of automatic exchanges, has been made available to the public. The growth of the service and the conversion of manual exchanges to automatic working have produced considerable additional work for the staff and resulted in their work being of a much more complex character. While the Minister was referring to the programme of telephone development, I was sorry he could not find time to mention some proposal for an improvement in the conditions in the Crown Alley exchange. I do not know whether the Minister was ever in the central telephone exchange at Crown Alley, but, if not, I recommend him to pay a visit there as soon as possible. If he can manage to go there without its being known beforehand, I think he will find, if he has any experience of telephone operating, a rather unsatisfactory condition of affairs in that exchange.

It is true that there was a considerable breakdown in the telephone service last year, due to the fact that whole areas were converted from manual to automatic working, and that there was, apparently, not sufficient cohesion between those responsible for the technical conversion and those responsible for the administration of the telephone service. The gap between these two sections produced a very unsatisfactory condition of affairs, which resulted in the telephone service during that period not coming up to its normal efficient standard. The telephone exchange in Crown Alley, in my opinion, is the powder barrel of the whole service. The building is a very unsatisfactory one. It has been in existence for a very long time. If the Minister has ever seen a telephone exchange in the capital of any other country he will know that the present telephone exchange in Crown Alley differs radically from anything that serves as a central telephone exchange in any other capital. The building is out-of-date; it is a drab, cheerless kind of building, packed up with all kinds of stores, and used as a kind of lumber depot for all kinds of engineering equipment. The main room in the place available for trunk telephone operating is very dreary. It is a dirty room and, on top of that, it is unsatisfactorily planned and very badly ventilated. When one goes into it one would think it was intended as an example of Gothic architecture. On account of its appearance, and the type of windows provided, one gets the idea that it belonged to that period. The equipment in the room is decidedly unsatisfactory, while the conditions under which the staff operate are also decidedly unsatisfactory. There is no space there for the possibility of further telephone extension.

It is not to be wondered at, therefore, that the trunk service has not been satisfactory. Any Deputy who has experience of the trunk service knows that. The conditions in the trunk room in Crown Alley are not such as to enable a satisfactory trunk service to be provided, owing to the defective condition of the room, the out-of-date equipment, and the inadequacy of the equipment generally provided for dealing with the trunk traffic.

The Minister told us that there was a surplus of £73,000 on the telephone side. He ought to make sure that a substantial proportion of that sum is utilised to improve the position at Crown Alley, which is decidedly unsatisfactory. Those who have any experience of the service know that a breakdown in the arrangements at the Crown Alley exchange will mean a complete dislocation of the service. If the Minister would pay a visit to that exchange and could manage to visit a central telephone exchange in another country, he will see the enormous difference between the conditions in Dublin and elsewhere.

Last year I raised with the Minister the question of the callous treatment— one cannot describe it by any other name—meted out to part-time employees in the Post Office by the Minister when these people come to retire. Cases come to my notice every year of persons who, having served in a part-time capacity in the Post Office for 30, 35 and 40 years are obliged to retire when 65 or 68 years of age. Having served the State and the community generally for a period of 40 years or more, the Minister simply allows them to go. He does not even send them a note of thanks and he does not give them one farthing gratuity. A week after they have gone out they have to try to get unemployment insurance benefit, national health insurance benefit, or home assistance. I suggest to the Minister that that is a type of treatment for persons who have served the State for 40 years or over of which no public Department ought to be proud. One thinks of the Post Office as a gigantic social service playing a big part in modern civilisation. While we think of that gigantic service, on the one hand, and the value of that service, we are confronted, on the other hand, with the position that that service could not give as much as a farthing compensation to a person who had served it for 30 or 40 years. I think last year the Minister indicated that he was in sympathy with the proposal I had then made to pay a gratuity or a pension to persons in that position. I think they ought to be paid pensions, and I think there ought to be some recognition of the services which they give to the community.

How does the Minister expect them to live when they retire at 65 years of age? The Minister at present casts them adrift with no pension and no gratuity. Last year he indicated great sympathy with the proposal which I then made. I would like to know from him what he has done during the past 12 months to translate into some tangible form the sympathy which he then expressed. After all, a number of people have retired in the meantime; more will be retiring while we are discussing this Estimate, and numbers of others next month and in every succeeding month. Something ought to be done by the Minister to speed up a decision to provide pensions or gratuities for those persons who have served the State for such long periods. I hope the Minister will be able to tell the House, when concluding, what he intends to do in this matter: that he will be able to find a remedy and will apply it speedily. It is rather strange that in Great Britain and the Six Counties the Postmaster-General treats such employees much more generously than the Minister treats them here. If there had not been a change of Government, such employees here would, in fact, be treated much more generously than they are being treated by the Minister. Theirs is, I think, an outstanding case which will have every sympathy from all sections of the community. I think the Minister ought to announce that he intends to meet the case and meet it in a reasonable way.

I hope that Deputy Mrs. Redmond will speak on this Estimate and raise her voice in protest against the condition of the Waterford office. I happened to be in Waterford a few days ago, and I must say that the condition of the office there is very far from satisfactory. It is a very old building. I understand that the question of reconstructing it has been under consideration for a decade or, possibly, two. The conditions in the office have deteriorated sadly, structurally, during that period. The position to-day is probably worse than it has ever been in the history of the Waterford post office. In fact, recently in an effort to try and provide accommodation, which is not available elsewhere in the building, a white elephant, in the form of a temporary structure, was erected at the public counter the effect of which has been to destroy the counter, to cramp the space formerly available for the public, and to make a mess of what ought to be decent counter accommodation in an important city like Waterford.

I know that the Post Office is not directly responsible for new buildings or for the carrying out of structural alterations, but if the Minister were to take a strong line in the matter I feel sure that he could get somebody to listen to him as regards having these attended to. The conditions in that office are particularly bad. They are the subject of comment locally by prominent citizens, and of complaint by those who have to try and transact their business at the public counter in the cramped space available there. I hope the Minister will deal with the matter when replying: that he will be able to announce some proposal for improving the condition of the accomodation in Waterford. The Post Office authorities have been dealing with the matter for a number of years, but no progress has been made in the meantime. You could get an Empire created in Europe much more quickly than you could get a post office created in this country. I suggest to the Minister that he ought to take the matter in hands himself, to try and break away, as was done last Christmas, from the traditional method of dealing with these things. I think that if those who have to deal with the Waterford office were obliged to work there for a period they would deal with it much more expeditiously: that if the consideration of the necessity for carrying out structural alterations there were given to somebody who had to work there under present conditions there would be a speedy decision in the matter of having alterations carried out in this very important office.

The Minister told us, when speaking of the ramifications of the Post Office Stores Department, that not only did it deal with all stores matters affecting the Post Office, but that it was also a kind of wholesale buyer and warehousing merchant for other Government Departments as well. One could admire and commend that kind of comprehensive purchasing and storage if one did not know the position. I suggest to the Minister that the Post Office Stores Branch should do its own job well before it undertakes the job of looking after other people's business. It is a well-known fact that it is extremely difficult for postmen to get uniforms and articles of protective clothing from the Stores Branch with the regularity to which they are entitled to have them under the Post Office regulations. It is quite a usual thing apparently for the Stores Branch to say that they have none of those uniforms in stock. It is quite a common thing for them to say that they have not such and such an article of protective clothing in stock. It is quite a common thing to see people entitled to uniforms doing without them for two, three, four and sometimes six months. It is an extremely difficult thing to get certain articles of protective clothing out of the Stores Branch.

I suggest, therefore, that before the Post Office Stores Branch undertakes other people's business it ought, first of all, to do its own business well, and that it is not doing its own business well in the respects I have mentioned. One job done well is much better than a bigger job not so well done, and that is essentially the position of the Stores Branch in regard to uniforms and articles of protective clothing. I hope also that there will be an examination, on the part of the Stores Branch, of the quality of the protective clothing supplied to many officers. Generally, the experience of those who have to wear them has been that in many respects they are of inferior quality; that they do not last the prescribed period.

Attention to that matter by the Stores Branch might in the long run be much more valuable on its part than in taking upon itself business for other Government Departments. I hope, however, that having called attention to the matter, the Minister will probably find it possible to take some steps to remedy a position which, as I have said, is far from satisfactory in respect of the uniforms supplied to the Post Office staff.

There is one other matter, and that is the question of the wage standards paid to Post Office employees. The Minister told us of a surplus of £306,000; he then told us of a surplus of £200,000, and finally he brought us down to a surplus of £100,000. The thing which emerges from all the figures quoted by the Minister is this: that there has been a substantial surplus and that there is still a substantial surplus. I think that the Post Office ought to pay a decent wage to its employees whether there is a surplus or not. It is not entitled to pay people a low rate of wages simply because it fixes charges on a basis which will not produce a surplus. The Post Office employees have an undeniable moral claim to a decent wage whether there is a surplus or not. The Minister, like many of his predecessors, has not a clean sheet, and I cannot imagine he has a clear conscience in this matter. Over 12 months ago a claim was submitted to his Department asking for certain increases for all grades of Post Office staffs. Prior to that a special claim was submitted in respect of the engineering grades in the Post Office, who have carried out the gigantic scheme of telephone development to which the Minister referred in his opening remarks. I suggest to the Minister that 12 months is a reasonably long time—in fact it is too long— in which to enable the Post Office to come to a decision on the claim submitted. Seeing that for the past 12 months the matter has been under consideration, and is still under consideration, one would not like to suggest that those who have been dealing with it were in any way affected with sleepy sickness. Twelve months is surely an inordinately long time to deal with a matter the issues of which are so clear to everyone who has devoted even a short time to an examination of it. I should like to know what he proposes to do or what his Department proposes to do in that matter. It is all very well to talk of surpluses when the staff the Minister employs is underpaid. It seems to me to be a vicious contradiction of values to talk of surpluses on the administration of the Post Office when the staff in the Department in which that surplus is made are underpaid. One of the horrible features of Post Office wage scales is the long and wearisome incremental scheme over which officers have to travel before they reach their maximum. When they do reach it, they find that it is a low maximum. Many of the younger officers in the service are unable to assume the responsibilities of marriage and fatherhood because of the difficulty of living on the low scales in operation. We have in this country the lowest marriagerate of any white country in the world. Is it any wonder? We have a particularly low rate amongst the agricultural community because of the abominably low standard of living which obtains in that industry. In the Post Office service — a State Department — we find that nothing is being done to correct the tendency there, notwithstanding the special responsibility which devolves on the State. Many of the younger officials in the Post Office are unable to marry because of the low wage scales. Many of them are compelled to postpone the question of marriage for a long period—until such time as they can get out of their incipient difficulty of low wages. When they marry, they find that difficulties which they thought they had left behind simply multiply because of the impossibility of maintaining a decent home on the low wage scales in operation in the Post Office.

The Minister has a claim in his Department on this matter for over 12 months. Surely, 12 months is not an unreasonable period in which to come to a decision. Prior to 1932, one used to think that a Fianna Fáil Minister for Posts and Telegraphs would not take long to arrive at a decision, so manifest were his sympathies with those on whose behalf the claim was made. There is not, however, much difference between the present Minister and some of his predecessors in previous Administrations. It might be said on behalf of some of the Minister's predecessors that they made up their minds speedily, even if they did not make them up satisfactorily. The Minister cannot make up his mind either speedily or satisfactorily. I can understand the excitement which Estimates produce in Ministerial quarters, but I should like the Minister to make an effort this week to come to a decision on the claim his Department has had for the past 12 months. I am sure the Minister will not accuse anybody of impetuosity or fussiness for asking him to come to a decision 12 months after he has received the claim. It is not unreasonable to make this request and I hope he will not turn an unsympathetic ear to it.

Mr. Brasier

A couple of weeks ago, I drew the attention of the Minister to the want of a daily delivery of letters in the parish of Donoghmore. I regret to say that the Minister did not see his way to accede to the request of a large number of farmers in that area. They are adversely affected, as explained in the letter they have written, by the fact that when they are sent a notification by the Pigs Marketing Board to send on pigs, it is received late. They do not receive the letter until the day after the period has elapsed, and they lose their sale. That is very important to people engaged in what is regarded by the Government Front Bench as a most important industry and it must be accompanied, as the Minister will understand, by severe monetary loss. I ask the Minister to investigate again the complaints which have been made. Sixty-three farmers have signed a petition and, where the income of 63 producers is seriously affected, the matter is one deserving the attention of the Department. I have again received a request from this body to urge the Minister to reconsider the position and to have it investigated by some subordinate body. I hope the Minister will see his way to give consideration to the appeal made by these men.

Deputy Dockrell drew the attention of the Minister to the importance of the conveyance of mails by air. I think that the activities of a committee in Cork, composed of the representatives of the corporation, Cobh Urban Council, Cork County Council and Cork Harbour Board, will result in the formulation of a scheme whereby these facilities will be brought into a district which is of the utmost importance agriculturally—a district such as Midleton, where the site is claimed to be one of the best of about ten different sites. I can look forward with a certain amount of pleasure to American mails being conveyed by air to this country, and to visitors who want to travel quickly availing of the same service. I am sure that encouragement by the Minister will help to develop such a service, to the benefit of employment and to the benefit of the tourist industry. Unfortunately, the Department of the Minister has been frequently attacked. I am sure that Department is doing its best, but we cannot ignore the fact that the considerable expense, over and above the charges made by the British Post Office, in which the people of this country are involved in respect of the delivery of letters militates against them. Perhaps the Minister could see his way to reduce those charges and also the cost of telegrams. I do not want to dwell on this matter because there are other services to be dealt with, but I earnestly ask the Minister to give relief to the agricultural community in those places where they have not a daily delivery of letters. We do not want to sink back into the Stone Age, but I am afraid we shall do so if we cannot get a daily postal delivery.

Mr. Kennedy

I am not going to say that the telephone service of this part of Ireland is bad, but the telephone service in my constituency is bad. I urge that steps be taken to bring the service up to the standard of that in other countries. The slowness with which calls are given and the interruptions and delays make the telephone service very bad. Anybody who has any experience, be it ever so small, of the telephone service in the Six Counties or in England and who compares it with the service here, will admit that we are very far behind. On various occasions I brought this matter up on this Estimate during the past ten years. I traced the lay-out of the whole telephone service, as known to me, in the Free State, as it then was. I pointed out five years ago that the telegram developed with the railways and had no relation to the occurrence of trade in the various parts of the country. I gave as an illustration that to get a call from where I live — Castlepollard village — to Oldcastle, eight miles away, it is necessary to go around by Dublin. I also gave an illustration in which a man rang from Delvin to Collinstown, five miles away, failed to get through, and drove to Collinstown. When he was talking to his friend in Collinstown, the phone call came through. This part of my county is linked up with Meath, because the G.N.R. served that part of Meath to its western boundary. Consequently, telephone calls have to go round through Navan and Athboy in order to reach places only a few miles removed.

With the increased use of the telephone, it is time to help out subscribers by giving direct connection with the automatic service in Longford, Navan, Mullingar, and parts of County Meath. There should be better facilities for night calls and for calls on holidays and Sundays. If an operator has to go up two flights of stairs to answer a call, the fire that is provided should be upstairs, so that he will be available instantaneously when there is a ring. The Minister should also consider the charge made for telegrams. Twelve words for one shilling seems reasonable. It is hard to get any message into nine words. I understand there has been increased use of the telegraph service, and I believe the increase would be greater if 12 words were allowed for one shilling. Deputy Norton and Deputy Brasier referred to bad deliveries in some parts of the country. I wish to draw attention to another aspect of that. It takes two days for a letter to go from Westmeath to parts of County Meath. A letter from remote parts of Westmeath reaches London or Liverpool far quicker than it reaches an adjoining townland, perhaps a stone's throw away. If there is a midday delivery each day there is no delay. In actual practice it takes two days for a letter from some parishes in Westmeath to get to parishes in County Meath, and vice versâ. That state of affairs should be ended, particularly in counties that have so many trade connections.

Reference was made last year to the cost of air-mail facilities, which were reduced to certain parts of the world. The reduction was not universal. The result is that if a person is unscrupulous, or, if you like, dishonest enough, he can send his correspondence by air-mail to South America via England, and get it through at one-third of the cost from here, by having it posted in England. I do not know if the Department would lose much if they reduced the cost of air-mail correspondence to the Argentine from 5/- to the rates that prevail in the Six Counties and in England.

I do not know if this is the time to advocate a better postal service for this House, but I think the worst advertisement for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs is the penny-in-the-slot machine in the hall, where sometimes, when a penny is put in, no stamp is delivered, or otherwise two stamps may be delivered. Is that a criterion of the service here? If I am in order, I suggest that the service we have here should be improved, because the facilities for Deputies, who work in the House when the Dáil is not sitting, are inadequate. Deputies should, at least, have the facilities that are provided throughout the country or at cross-roads for getting stamps and sending telegrams. I drew the Minister's attention before to the fact that the trunk services in Leinster House are very bad. The Minister explained the difficulties to me, and I am sure the Department is doing its best to overcome these difficulties. I am not a technician, and I know nothing about the technique of the very complicated question involved in the telephone service, but the newspapers tell of lines in operation in other countries that take ten calls at a time. We are told that such a service is to be established between this country and Great Britain, and that one has been provided in Cork. May I agitate that the Minister should speed up such a service all over the country? The sooner it is done the better. As the telephone has become a part of the life of the ordinary people, I would like to see its use greatly developed, and in my constituency. In places like Rathowen, which is a dispensary district, a parish area and a Gárda station, there is no telephone available, while the service has been opened up in other places where none of these activities exist. I do not know the reason for that. I am not begrudging the service to any area in which it has been provided, but I would like to see it in vital places like the one I mentioned. Accordingly I advocate its development generally as quickly as possible. I do not depreciate the services rendered by the Post Office and the benefits it confers on the community. My point is that the services it provides should be second to none. There is a big field for development in the postal services, in the telephone service, and in the telegraph service, and the Minister should make a special effort to provide them for the people.

Mrs. Redmond

I should like to say that this is the one Department in which, in my opinion, there has been an improvement within the past year. At the same time, there is very much yet to be done, and much leeway to be made up in the way of providing better facilities. I should like the Minister to take notice of conditions in the Waterford post office. At the general post office on the quays the work of the staff is so hampered by the small space that is available that under present conditions justice cannot be done to the taxpayers. I believe if the Minister could see the conditions there he would, at the earliest possible moment, endeavour to have them put right. If the Minister would at any time come down and inspect the building I should be pleased to accompany him. I believe that, having seen it, he would at the earliest possible moment have the matter rectified. The present building does not do justice to Waterford City, and I believe it is not the wish of the Minister that it should remain in its present condition. Deputy Norton has spoken about this matter, and it is not necessary for me to say anything further than to ask the Minister to have it rectified at the earliest possible moment.

With regard to the telephone system in this country, I am quite prepared to admit that it has improved in the past year, but there is still much to be done. First of all, I would suggest that the instalment charge should be reduced. That reduction, as well as a reduction in the yearly rental, would encourage more subscribers. Many people would have a telephone if the cost were within the limit of their means. I should also like to refer to another matter, which has already been raised by other Deputies. It is in regard to the necessity for a public telephone in the ordinary small country towns and villages. I am acquainted with several not very small towns where the telephone call office closes down at 7 o'clock in the evening. That means that the people have to go a distance of, perhaps, ten miles if they want to make an urgent telephone call necessitated by a death, a motor breakdown, or anything else. They could, of course, go and knock up a neighbour's house. The neighbour may be good enough to answer them, but everybody knows that he would be less likely to answer after a certain hour, and in any case one does not like trespassing on people's generosity. There is always the possibility that the neighbour might say: "Why have you not got a telephone of your own, instead of coming bothering me?" I suggest that it would be well if the Minister would take this matter seriously. I believe that anybody in his Department who has an ounce of sense will realise that it is a necessity to have, in an ordinary country town or village, a public call office which will be open after 7 o'clock, so that people can make a telephone call at any time through the night. Matters do not always work out just as one wishes; everything which would necessitate a telephone call will not conveniently happen before 7 o'clock. In those districts on Sunday you cannot make a telephone call. That means that from Saturday evening at 7 o'clock until 9 o'clock on the following Monday morning those districts are without a telephone. I believe that the Minister should, and I am sure he will, look into this matter and have it rectified as soon as possible.

The delay in the delivery of telegrams from country post offices has already been referred to here. I believe the people are quite satisfied with the present delivery rate of 3d., but I myself have had experience of a telegram being delivered three hours after it had arrived at the post office. Sometimes it is said that the weather was too wet. Sometimes it is said that the post office could not get a man or a boy to deliver the telegram. I want to know is that good business? Personally, I say it is not, and it is a matter that the Minister should look into. I will give the Department credit for the fact that it has livened up a bit in some ways within the last year, but that does not apply to this matter of telegrams. In one case which came to my notice, a telegram had been lying in the post office for 3½ hours before it was delivered. It happened to be in connection with an important matter, and it was too late to be of any use when it eventually did arrive. It was no consolation to the man to whom that telegram was addressed to be told that there was nobody available to deliver it. I think that, no matter what the cost may be, there should be a certain staff ready to deliver telegrams. Another Deputy has referred to similar delays in Cork. It will be seen, therefore, that they are not confined to any one area.

In regard to the daily delivery of letters, I asked a question to-day about a particular district — Ballynoe, near Cappoquin, County Waterford. Certain farmers in that district have letters delivered to them on only three days a week. Now, those people are taxpayers, and even if it involves an extra cost, I believe they are entitled to a daily delivery of letters. I am sure that if the matter is looked into in the Department a way will be found out of the difficulty. As I say, even if it does cost extra money, it would be money well spent. That is all I have to say on this Estimate, but I would again ask the Minister to look into those matters and have them rectified as soon as possible.

Mr. Cole

I did intend to make some suggestions to the Minister as to a few ways in which he might spend a little of this surplus money, but I am afraid Deputy Mrs. Redmond has forestalled me. She has said much of what I was going to say, and said it much better than I could. First of all, with regard to telegrams, I am acquainted with some of the country offices, and I know that when a telegram arrives its delivery depends on whether the children are going home from school, what direction they are going in, or some other incidental matter. If the children are not going home from school, the telegram is left until such time as somebody turns up who might oblige by delivering it. I have been making inquiries as to the cause of that, and I have been told that it is the fault of the Department, because they will not allow sufficient money to pay delivery fees. The most that would be allowed is something like 3d. In the cases I am referring to, the Post Office would be within one mile, so there would be free delivery. I believe that 3d. is too small an amount for which to expect a messenger to go almost a mile with a wire. There ought to be a little more liberality in this matter. After all, telegrams are usually sent with the idea of having a message delivered quickly. If the telegrams are delivered at any time which pleases the Post Office, it is not worth while sending them at all. Deputy Kennedy has referred to the cost of the telegram, and suggested that it might be reduced. Might I suggest a way in which it could be reduced without much loss to the Department? Some telegrams might be of such a nature that they would require to be delivered quickly, while in the case of others it might not matter if they were not delivered for three or four hours. Could there not be a concession made for slow deliveries in cases like that? Where a wire has to be delivered immediately, the full price might be charged, but, in cases where there is no hurry and where the wire might possibly be sent by the next postal delivery, a concession might be made.

The other matter which I want to mention, and which has already been referred to by Mrs. Redmond, is in regard to telephone calls. In the country, after 7 o'clock at night, we cannot get a telephone call except we go to the nearest Guards' barracks. If the telephone offices were open up to 10 or 11 o'clock at night, there would certainly be a great deal more telephones in use. After all, you can get a telephone anywhere during the day, but after 7 o'clock, when the telephone is really wanted, it is impossible to get it unless you go, perhaps, quite a long journey. I remember some years ago you could make a telephone call at any hour you liked, and the cost was nothing more than it would be in the daytime. At the same time, the rental was only about half what it is now. I believe that the rental at the present time is excessive. If that rental were reduced, you would have a great many more people installing the telephone. The reduction would in the long run be no loss to the Department; the additional number of subscribers would more than compensate for it. That is all I want to say, except to emphasise that there ought to be some way of delivering telegrams instead of depending on school children to take them.

Mr. Davin

I desire to support the plea made by Deputy Norton and other Deputies in reference to the conditions of Post Office workers, and to appeal to the Minister, who claims that he himself is the Minister of a Government which is a worker's Government, to face up to the fact that, if the Government is a worker's Government, they should treat the workers in the Post Office and other public services in a proper and Christian-like way. One thing, at least, that can be said to the credit of the late Cosgrave Government is that they never claimed that they were a worker's Government but, notwithstanding the fact that they never made that claim, as far as I can see, from the development of the policy of the present Government, the Cosgrave Government acted in a much more humane way towards the workers, although they did not claim to be a worker's Government, than the present Government, which does claim to be a worker's Government, has acted.

The surplus which appears to be available at the present time can go a very long way, if the Minister has the desire to use it in that direction, to meet the reasonable claims of the Post Office employees, who are known to be the worst paid workers in the Government service. I also want to support the appeal — and I hope it will find some response in the ear of the Minister — for the extension of the existing postal deliveries. I think it is within the right of every citizen of this State, no matter what part of the country he lives in, to have a daily postal delivery. I believe that if you decide to have a daily postal delivery in every part of this State and to give every citizen equal facilities, from a Post Office point of view, in this matter, it will prove to be a less costly undertaking than the advisers of the Minister now seem to think. At any rate, the people are entitled to have a daily service, and I hope the Minister will take his courage in his hands and decide to put that policy into operation before the end of the present financial year.

I have heard some Deputies refer, and rightly refer, to the lack of telephone facilities in rural areas, particularly after 7 o'clock at night. It is well known that any telephone facilities that are available after that time are provided, in most cases, in the rural areas, by the goodwill of the Civic Guards. Now, I understand that the Civic Guards have an instruction from the Commissioner and from the Minister for Justice not to allow their telephones to be used on public business. On that account, I think there is a very genuine case to be made for the extension of telephone facilities and the placing of those telephone facilities within the reach of any small group of citizens of this State, whether they are living in villages, towns or rural areas. It very often happens, as far as I can see, that people, whether poor or otherwise, find it necessary to make a sudden call upon the local doctor. I think that, instead of compelling such people to provide motor transport or other means of conveyance involving a considerable delay, telephone facilities, in a civilised country and a country that is supposed to be making progress, should be available for purposes of that kind or for any other purpose, whether by night or day, or after 7 p.m. Telephone facilities should be available for the citizens for any purpose they may require them for.

I also want to draw attention to another matter about which I made representations many months ago without any effect up to the present time. I am referring to the provision of a better postal delivery service in the town of Tullamore. A memorial was sent by the principal business people of that town many months ago. It was sent direct to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, and a copy was sent, I presume, to every Deputy for the constituency of Laoighis-Offaly I made representations to the Minister many months ago in connection with that matter, but so far there has been neither a denial nor an admission that the claim for better delivery facilities in that town is reasonable and right. The town of Tullamore is a big industrial centre, with a new factory, recently established, which will increase to a considerable extent the business previously done in that particular town. I do not know how long the Minister thinks it should be necessary to take in investigating a claim of that kind, but at any rate, after four or five months of consideration, the Department of Posts and Telegraphs ought to be in a position to inform the memorialists as to whether or not they are likely to respond to their appeal.

There are many other matters which I do not want to deal with because they have been referred to by other Deputies. The Post Office Department appear to take the view that they are a commercial concern, entitled to earn a certain sum per year and to accumulate a certain surplus. If they are a commercial concern, entitled to get a profit on the business they carry out during the year, then let them at least set themselves up as a model commercial concern, do their business on up-to-date lines, and provide the people with the necessary postal and telephone facilities which an up-to-date and progressive nation is supposed to have.

Mr. Linehan

I should like to join in the plea for a better postal service. A number of other Deputies have mentioned the question of a daily post in rural areas. As far as my own constituency is concerned, there is quite a number of rural areas that have only postal facilities three days a week, and I think, as Deputy Davin said, that they are just as much entitled as anybody else to have a daily postal service. Even in some of the towns that have a daily service, however, I regret to say that that service does not at all correspond to the service of 20 or 30 years ago. In my own town there was one daily post 20 years ago, and there used to be a midday post. At the present time we are up against this difficulty from the point of view of any person who has business by letter with Dublin, that in order for a letter to reach the town for to-morrow's post it must be posted before 4 o'clock. Otherwise it will take two days to be delivered. I suggest that it is extraordinary that a letter posted in Dublin should take two days to reach a town 160 miles away. I think the Minister should look into that. As I say, 30 years ago or so there were two posts in the town and at the present time it is only once in a blue moon that we actually are able to get a letter in a day. Most people do not think of posting before 4.15 p.m., and they wait until their offices are closing to post their letters. The result is that it takes two days for the letter to reach us. In fact, as a result, I know of people in business in that part of the country who have a habit of writing at the bottom of a letter: "Post before 4.15 if you want us to get a reply the next day." The Minister should provide us with that facility and he should see at least that a letter posted in Dublin should reach us the next day and that we should not have to wait two days.

On the question of telephones, I know of a number of people in the smaller country towns who would instal telephones were it not for the fact that they feel that they would not get any great benefit from having a telephone. There is a post office in the town, and, since they may not have very much telephoning to do, they do not think it any great hardship to walk down to the post office and telephone. The reason they give is that they would have to pay the installation fee, and the other necessary charges for the privilege of having a telephone installed, and they do not see why they should have to pay about £6 a year for the privilege of not having to walk a few hundred yards on the occasions on which they might want to telephone. If the telephone service were extended throughout the night and on Sundays and holidays and occasions like that, I imagine that a greater number of people in rural areas would instal telephones. To give an instance in that connection, take the case of a Sunday followed by a Bank Holiday, as in the case of Easter Monday or the first Monday in August. The rural areas are entirely isolated practically from 7 o'clock on the Saturday evening until 8 o'clock on the following Tuesday morning. Very often a necessity may arise to use the telephone. And the great difficulty is that, even if a person had a telephone, it would not be much use to anybody who wanted to use it during the night, because the person with a private 'phone in a country town or rural area would not have any means of getting in touch with the Exchange after 7 o'clock or 8 o'clock on the Saturday evening. There would not be anybody in the rural post office to put them through in case they wanted to make a call. I believe that in rural areas you would find ten times as many people installing telephones if they were satisfied that they would have a service at night, and on Sundays. At the present time those services are not available, and I trust the Minister will consider this matter very seriously.

With regard to the late delivery of telegrams, I often have wondered how the system works. I am not quite clear on the point, and I should like some information. In a number of rural offices, indeed in fairly large towns in the country, there is no permanent messenger boy retained to deliver telegrams. The boy who delivers is paid by the job, apparently; he is not a salaried official. I think that is one of the reasons for the slackness in the delivery of telegrams. In a number of country towns that I knew a considerable period ago, there used to be telegraph boys, apparently permanent boys, who had uniforms and bicycles, and their job was to deliver telegrams. They do not appear to be utilised now in many offices, and any boy who delivers a telegram is just paid for the job. That is the system that is in operation, and it is possibly the cause of the slackness in delivery, and particularly the late deliveries.

I should like to give one instance of how serious sometimes is the late delivery of a telegram. About two years ago a man made a bitter complaint to me about the delay in delivering a particular telegram. He was practically heartbroken. He had a friend in England from whom he expected a telegram. He got his wire all right, and the delay was not very great, only 15 minutes. But, small as the delay would seem to us, it made all the difference in the world, because his pal in England had promised him a tip for a particular race. He was to get the tip by telegram; it came a quarter of an hour late. The man was late with his bet, and the horse won. It is very hard luck on him that he had not a claim against the Department for the money he would have won if he had got the telegram in time.

Mr. Allen

I should like to say a few words in support of those who have been advocating better facilities for people living in remote rural areas. I think it will be agreed generally that the services which the Post Office is providing in many rural areas are antiquated. They are no better than, and perhaps not quite as good as, the services of 20 or 30 years ago. It is about time that the Post Office woke up to the fact that the people in the rural areas are entitled to as good service as those living in the cities and towns. Twelve months ago the Minister told us that he was going to provide a six-day postal service in the rural area. He did so to a limited extent. When the Budget is introduced we hope that the Government will by then have seen their way to increase that service. They certainly should endeavour to provide a six-day delivery in all rural areas. There are still areas in the country that have only two deliveries in the week and, strange to say, they are within a short distance of towns. I know one district that has a three-day delivery and it is within one and a half miles from the town post office. It is time that system was changed and that the Post Office started deliveries every day in the week.

With regard to the telegraph service, the Minister stated that he could not increase the number of words on a 1/-telegram from nine to 12. Perhaps he forgets that five of the words very often constitute the address, and that leaves you only four words for the message. The 1/- telegram is of very little use when you can put only four words into it. In many cases the address accounts for at least five words. I think that is a matter the Minister might favourably consider. Deputy Cole suggested a system of deferred delivery of telegrams in remote areas where there is no great urgency. You have that system in connection with cablegrams overseas and there is a lower rate because of the deferred delivery. If that system were applied to rural areas it might solve the problem where telegraph boys are not available. In the case of urgent telegrams it is very unfair that they are not delivered immediately. There should be provision made for immediate delivery of urgent telegrams where there is a post office or a telephone exchange office.

The need that exists for a night telephone service in rural areas has been referred to. Very many people have approached me within the last couple of years, wanting to know why they could not use the telephone at night. They were quite prepared to instal telephones if they were assured of a night and a Sunday service. I believe it is quite true you would have thousands of telephones installed in rural areas if the people could use them at night and on Sundays. Why is there not some facility given in this connection? Only in one post office out of every 50 will you find a night man on duty, and you need such a man in order to permit the telephone service to operate during the night. I think the time has arrived when the Post Office should provide a night man in every country town office.

Then, again, there is a grievance with regard to the delay in installing telephones in rural areas. Complaints have been made to me with regard to the delay in extending the telephone. The Department plead that it takes a considerable time, and there is also an excuse about shortage of staff. If they have not sufficient staff at the moment they should increase the number.

I should like to refer to the postal facilities in Leinster House. These could be improved without very much trouble. I think the Minister should consider the question of installing an automatic stamping machine or franking machine, and not have Deputies, who have gone to the trouble of writing letters for hours, licking stamps in order to stamp these letters. They should be provided with some stamping or franking machine; they could give the letters to some official and pay the cost of postage, and then have the letters franked. There is a stamp machine in the building, but for long periods there are no stamps in it and, indeed, it is of very little use here at all. I hope the Minister will pay particular attention to the rural areas. I consider that they are entitled to greater facilities.

Mr. Heron

I am sure the Minister will recognise that the Accountants Branch is a very important part of the machinery at the headquarters of the Post Office. I should like to call his attention to a matter affecting the staffing and the organisation of that branch. There are, I think, a number of vacancies in the establishment of Post Office accountants. There are a number of duties which, I think, have been recognised by the higher officials in the Minister's Department as duties to be performed by officers of inappropriate grades. Over 12 months ago there was a revision of the staffing in that office. An inspection was carried out, but since then nothing has happened. I would be glad if the Minister could provide some information on that subject, and if he would look into the matter with a view to carrying out the recommendations, if any, of the officers who, over 12 months ago, inspected the duties in the Accountants Branch.

I do not desire to cover the field already covered so well by Deputy Norton, but I should like to endorse what he has said in regard to the under-payment of Post Office employees. It may be that the point of view which the Minister will express in that matter is that the payment of the Post Office staff must bear some relation to whether or not the Post Office is making a profit, and the extent of that profit. I do not think that the question of the pay of Post Office servants, or the servants of any other State Department, should be regarded in that way. The question of profit or loss in the Post Office should bear no relation whatever to the payment of any official in the Post Office. The Post Office workers have a claim, and a just claim, to a decent wage, and it is a disgrace to the State that it should employ people under the conditions under which many of the Post Office employees are employed.

No doubt it is good news for every Deputy that the Post Office provides a surplus, but the Post Office exists, first and foremost, for the purpose of providing a service. Many Deputies have appealed for improved services — for better telephone facilities in rural areas, night services, Sunday services, more deliveries and so on — and I am in complete sympathy with the point of view of those Deputies; but I should like the Deputies who make those pleas to face up to the fact that improving these services may possibly mean the disappearance of the surplus which the Minister is always glad to be able to present to the House. I think that Post Office workers should be properly paid and services improved, no matter what the cost is, and whether it means the disappearance of the surplus or not. We do not expect the Department of Local Government and Public Health necessarily to be run at a profit, or on a profit-making basis, and we do not expect any of the Departments of State to show a profit except in the form of the welfare of the people, and I do not think that profit or loss should be the chief consideration in determining the Minister's attitude towards improved services and improved pay, so far as the Post Office is concerned.

Dr. Hannigan

The Deputies who have already spoken on this Estimate have, as usual, left very little unsaid, but there are one or two points I should like to raise. One might infer from the repeated references to the unsatisfactory nature of the telephone service throughout the country, that the service was satisfactory in Dublin, but I can very definitely say that that is very far from being a fact. The telephone service in the City of Dublin was never more unsatisfactory than it is to-day. Deputy Norton painted a very vivid picture of the unsuitability of the Crown Alley exchange but he dealt with it mainly from the point of view of the unsuitable accommodation for the staffs. A much more important aspect of its unsuitability is that the telephone service provided by that particular exchange is extremely bad. In saying that I do not wish in any way to cast an aspersion on the officials working in that exchange because the defect may be a purely mechanical one. The Minister in his statement referred to a proposed extension of cross-Channel communication facilities. Might I suggest to the Minister that, knowing as he does the unsatisfactory nature of the service in the City of Dublin, his energies might much better be directed towards improving the service as it exists, before he deals with an extension of the service.

It is very well known that this country is the least telephone-minded nation in the world. I do not for one moment think that is due to the reticent character of the Irish race. I think it is rather due to the fact that telephone rentals are far too high and the Minister, with a surplus of £300,000, might, without taking any great risk, reduce these rentals considerably. I am quite sure that if he did that, the loss in revenue would very quickly be offset by the increased number of users of the telephone service. He might also devote some of his surplus to ameliorating the conditions of the many underpaid officials in that service.

Mr. Meaney

I am sure that nearly every Deputy must admit that the Minister's statement from one point of view was pleasing, that is, the advances made and the extra facilities given by the Post Office in recent years, but I hope the time is not far distant when these facilities will be further extended. In some of the rural areas the public were greatly facilitated this year by improved services in connection with the delivery of letters, but there are still rural areas left out. I have been informed, on inquiry into the matter, that the Department arranges these deliveries on an economic basis and taking every district by itself. I think that is a bad system. I think that, whether the Department has a surplus or not, facilities in the shape of a delivery every day should be provided in every rural area. After all, the man living in a remote district, far from towns and villages, needs his daily letter just as much as the man living in the heart of a big city, and, sometimes, that letter may be of greater importance to him than it would be to some of those who live in the cities. I trust the Minister will take that into consideration when reviewing the position for the coming year.

An allusion was made a while ago by a Deputy to messenger boys. I do not agree with the view he put forth. As far as the rural post offices are concerned, I hold that the delivery of telegrams is as good as could be expected. Some of those post offices would not justify the wage that should be paid to a messenger boy. Very often a postman is employed in a small district and after he has finished his morning delivery he is given the job of delivering telegrams for the rest of the day; that is, after his morning's work is done.

There is one other matter that I would like to bring to the notice of the Minister. That is with respect to the waterproof capes which postmen wear on their rounds in rural areas. These capes should be replaced much oftener than they are. I happen to know that in wet weather postmen find great difficulty in preserving the mails from being damaged by the rain.

I quite agree with Deputy Allen in what he said as regards postal facilities in Leinster House. When the Dáil is in session the post office is open all right. But if a Deputy has to remain in Dublin the day following the Dáil meeting to attend to his Parliamentary business, he must leave the House and go out and buy stamps. When there is a post office in the House one would think that should not be necessary. Until we get those franking machines that Deputy Allen mentioned I think that at least the post office should be open for a few hours every day when the Dáil is not in session.

Mr. Browne

I did not intend to speak at any great length on this Vote for the reason that Deputy Mrs. Redmond has gone over all the ground that I intended covering. However, I would specially like to draw the attention of the Department to the necessity for the installation of public telephones in a number of villages in West Mayo. I will mention a few of them. Take, for instance, Lahardane. Lahardane is a small village. There is a police barrack there and a doctor. If there is a necessity for a second doctor and anything sudden takes place the next doctor is 15 miles away. The village is 25 miles from the county hospital. I believe that a public telephone would be a paying proposition in Lahardane. In addition to being a paying proposition it would be of great benefit to the area.

The next village to which I wish to refer is Lacken. That is a very backward, badly-served area, though it is thickly populated, and what I have said about Lahardane applies also to this village. Then there are Achill and Keel. They are very badly served and are both very remote. The next is Belmullet. Belmullet is 50 miles from the county hospital. There is around this area a very big tourist traffic in the summer time, and when a car breaks down there is no way of getting into communication with places 30 or 40 miles away where one might get a car.

Now I come to Blacksod village, which is 70 miles from the county hospital. What I have said of the other villages about the matter of a doctor applies there when a second doctor is required. Being able to get into rapid communication with a doctor in that area might sometimes mean saving somebody's life. As I have said, the distance is 70 miles to the county hospital, and I believe a telephone would pay in that area. At all events it is absolutely necessary. Then there is the village of Mulranny, which happens to be in about the same position in respect of telephone service. Mulranny is about 20 miles from the county hospital. I might have mentioned that Belmullet is 60 miles from a railway station and it is without a telephone service. There is a police barracks there. Those villages that I have mentioned now are very remote and without public telephones. I believe a public telephone would be a paying proposition, and even if it were not a paying proposition it is necessary, in the interests of the people in those districts, that they should be linked up with the outside areas. A public telephone would be of immense benefit to the people there. These areas are more or less cut off from railway accommodation altogether; the great bulk of transport work is being done by lorries. In such circumstances a telephone service would be most useful. One service would work in with the others.

The last point to which I wish to refer is the way in which the Department differentiates between private users and the general public. The private telephones are open from 8 to 10 o'clock, but the service is closed to the public after 8 o'clock. I think that is not fair to the public. Why should they be closed to the public after 8 o'clock while they are still open to the private users? Surely when the post office is at work until 10 o'clock dealing with private telephones one would feel that the same should also apply to the public generally. By opening the post office telephones to the public, the Department would be serving the whole community. These few remarks, I think, finish all that I wish to say, for the other points that I had intended speaking on have been dealt with by Deputies who have spoken already. In conclusion, I would specially direct the attention of the Minister to the villages I have mentioned. They have been for years asking for a telephone service, and up to the present they have failed to get it. I hope the Minister will bear my appeal in mind, and that when he comes before us next time he will be able to say a telephone service has been installed in these villages.

Mr. Keyes

During the course of this debate many appeals of a more or less deserving character have been made to the Minister. I hope he will not regard my appeal as the least of them. I am speaking on behalf of a most deserving body, the sub-postmistresses and sub-postmasters throughout the country. We have heard a great deal about grievances, but I think if anybody will examine the conditions of service under which sub-postmistresses and sub-postmasters are working he will begin to wonder how it is that the public are getting from these badly-paid servants the facilities that they are getting. They work 87 hours a week, from 8 a.m. to 10 p.m., where there are ten or more telephone subscribers. They have to put in three hours' work on Sundays as well. The Government have been framing regulations for the shortening of hours in industrial and commercial employment. Yet their own servants are not being given any consideration in this matter of hours of service. I suggest that the Government ought set a good example themselves.

Then what is the remuneration that the Government are giving those people for the very responsible and arduous duties they perform? I have before me a typical case where a man with a salary of £68 a year is responsible for all the work of his post office. He has to supply premises for the post office, he has to provide light, coal and all the other equipment that goes with the post office, and he is responsible for all the cash transactions in that office. He has an assistant to whom he is paying £18 a year, with board and lodging, which brings up the wage to £44, leaving himself a salary of £24 per annum for all the duties of that office. Working out his time, at 14 hours a day and 4 hours work on Sunday, it would come to 1½d. an hour. This matter has been repeatedly ventilated already, and it has given rise to some controversy in the Press. Yet nobody worries about it. We are told that these positions are very eagerly sought after by shopkeepers in small towns and villages. That is no excuse for paying this miserable wage. It gives the State no excuse for retaining in its service people who are vested with a great deal of responsibility and paying them a miserable wage.

Sometimes one hears of lapses of a very undesirable character taking place. Yet one can scarcely wonder that persons who are handling such large sums of money as they do handle, and getting such small remuneration, should take what is not their own. I should say that it is very injudicious on the part of the Department to continue those people in the service at a starvation rate of wage, with the long and almost impossible hours of work to which they are condemned at present. I sincerely trust that the Minister will give this his very earnest consideration and see if something cannot be done to put these public servants on some sort of a fair footing having regard to their long hours and the arduous work they perform for the community.

Mr. Brennan

When this Vote was before the House last year, I remember drawing the attention of the Minister to the very point that is now being raised by Deputy Keyes. I think it is a perfect scandal that these people are treated in the way that they are. Not alone have they to supply a free house to the Department but their salary, even without taking that into account at all, is not sufficient to cover their activities. They are disfranchised as citizens of the State. We are told these low salaries are due to the fact that there is very keen competition for these appointments whenever there is a vacancy, and that the Minister takes advantage of that and pays these people such a very small amount for the services they render. I would appeal to the Minister to go into that matter thoroughly. He will find that there is a very grave and serious need to look into it and that these people are not paid for the services they render. It is not so easy at present to supply a house, fire and light, with service, for possibly £40 or £50 and even, in some cases, less than that down the country.

There may be some confusion in regard to the point raised by Deputies about the telephone service. It is a fact that where there are less than a certain number of subscribers, even the private subscriber has no service after seven or eight o'clock. Something should be done to remedy that state of affairs. Even if there happen to be six or seven subscribers in a district, they cannot take advantage of the phone, although they are paying well for it, after a certain hour at night. Where people go to the trouble of installing a telephone, they should not be cut off in that way, particularly as the Minister was able to tell the House when presenting the Estimate, that that particular branch had yielded a profit—that in fact it was the only branch upon which he has made a profit. He should spend that profit in facilitating subscribers by extending the service as far as he possibly can.

Mr. Gorey

I am rather timid in approaching the Minister on a subject that has been mentioned frequently in this House before. He is about the fifth Minister with whom this question has been raised. I am only asking him to take a slightly different viewpoint from that which his immediate predecessor took and a totally different viewpoint from that which his more remote predecessors took. I refer to the question of the delivery of telegrams in rural areas. A charge is still being levied for deliveries over the three-mile limit. I know his predecessor reduced the charge, but why should it be there at all?

I venture to say that the amount is so small now that it is scarcely worth while for an important Department like the Department of Posts and Telegraphs to collect it. People living outside the three-mile limit are now in the position that they are not getting the same facilities or the same rights under the Constitution as those living within the limit. It is a very poor plea to put up at this hour of the day to say that because a person does not live within a three-mile radius of the postal town, he has to pay an extra tax for the facilities which other people get without the payment of any extra tax. To my own knowledge, I know of two offices where the messenger who works the whole district is paid by the fees collected from telegrams delivered outside the three-mile limit. Therefore that messenger is provided free of charge for those who happen to live within that limit.

I again put it to the Minister: is it worth while, from an economic point of view, to have these fees collected from people living outside the limit? A strong plea was made by other Deputies about rural postal deliveries, and the case was made that the people living in rural areas are entitled to the same service as people living in the more populous areas. I agree, and I say that the same argument should apply to the telegraph service. Hitherto the House never seemed to be in sympathy with this proposal because the people living within a three-mile radius of a post office are the vast majority of the people. I suppose their attitude might be compared to that of Hitler in Germany. There is no use talking to a bully, and the mass is sometimes a great bully. I should like the Minister to take a different view, although he is a city man, to get away from the old tradition and to strike out on the principle of fair play and equal rights for all citizens. I do not think I need say more except to make again an appeal which I have been making for the past 15 years.

Mr. L. Walsh

I rise to draw the Minister's attention to one complaint, and that a very recent one, too. So recently as last night, a business man in the town I have the honour to represent, had occasion to call up Holland. He called into Drogheda Post Office at twenty minutes to eight and he did not get through to London until ten minutes to ten. From London he got through to Holland in exactly three minutes. I think there is something radically wrong in the telephone service, particularly in that section which deals with cross-Channel calls. It is a very serious state of affairs for commercial people in this country who want to get into communication with clients on the Continent to say that it will take two and a half hours to get through to London, while you can get through from London to Holland in three minutes. That is a state of affairs that calls for a remedy. With regard to the telephone service, and telephone charges and rents generally, I think the Minister would be well advised if he would adopt a policy of bigger trade and smaller profits. I think that, in the end, he would find that the increased business would recoup him for any reduction in the fees which he charges. After all, the telephone service is a public service. It is not right, in my opinion, that any Department of the Government should show a huge surplus while citizens are being taxed for services to which they are entitled.

Mr. McGowan

I must say that I am somewhat disappointed by this Estimate. In view of all the recent impositions and increased duties cast upon the Gárda Síochána, I fully expected that the latest imposition put upon them would be the onus of delivering the post each morning. However, I find we have not risen to that yet. On the question of the telephone service generally, I think that, excluding the larger cities, it will be found that it is extremely bad. Many of the instruments which the public in small country towns are forced to use are absolutely obsolete. In fact, I am sure that if any persons living in country towns have the misfortune to lose their souls, and be damned, that terrible fate will in a large measure be attributable to the bad language they use over the telephone about inefficient instruments. I have got an instrument at home, and I would much prefer to have to wind the handle of a barrel organ than to attempt to ring up a telephone exchange with it. Judging from its appearance, one would say it savoured of Noah's Ark. Then when one comes into the city one finds very efficient and nice instruments. In the country, on the other hand, there are very obsolete instruments.

I believe that certain facilities are granted for night service in country towns. The people, I think, who usually avail of them are doctors and people of that nature who require them, but there is a definite defect in that system. Take a small town. The number of people who are granted facilities for a night service are all on the one circuit. You may have four or five people on the one circuit. An unfortunate country doctor goes to bed after a hard day's work. He has a telephone by his bedside, and the bell rings. He is wakened up out of his sleep, perhaps to find the gentleman next door, having returned from a dance, ringing up to know has-his ladylove arrived home, or, perhaps, an inebriated gentleman ringing up his pal at the other end of the town to know was his wife up when he got home. That is certainly a defect in the night system, to have five people on the same circuit, so that if A is rung up at night, the telephone of X, Y and Z also rings and they are wakened up. I am not saying that it can be got over in a few moments, but it is a defect in the system.

As to the scale of pay for sub-postmasters and mistresses, these people are certainly the Cinderellas of the service. In some cases I believe they have to supply light, pens and notepaper as well as the actual premises. The only thing I believe which they have not to provide is the postman and his uniform. In some cases I believe they get the munificent sum of £26 per annum, out of which they have to live, and perhaps have a fortnight's holidays on the Riviera.

The last matter I want to refer to is the work at present going on at Collinstown Aerodrome under the auspices of the Minister. I understand that a new line of communication is being made to the aerodrome from the city, on which there is a number of men working, some of them inside the aerodrome and some outside. I understand that the men working outside the aerodrome are paid 1/2½ an hour, but the men inside only get 10½d. per hour, so that the minute a man crosses into the aerodrome to lay the other end of the cable his wages are automatically reduced to 10½d. per hour. That is an amazing thing. It is actually happening in the County Dublin in connection with casual labourers employed by the Post Office. The result is that you could have two men carrying a 20-foot plank and the man at one end of the plank paid 10½d. an hour and the man at the other end 1/2½ an hour. That may be a bit farfetched, but the actual position is that some men have been transferred from working inside and their wages have automatically been increased from 10½d. to 1/2½ per hour.

Mr. L.J. Walsh

No strike?

Mr. McGowan

Not yet, but if things continue as they are perhaps the only remedy will be a strike. Of course, a man transferred from inside, and whose wages are increased, is hardly likely to go on strike. But that is a state of affairs which should not be in existence in this country. The only explanation of it that I can see is that the Minister, being a little more considerate than other Departments, pays the fairly decent wage of 1/2½ outside. In the aerodrome itself there are other men paid by another Department, and when a man working outside has to go into the aerodrome, then the Minister has to cease being Christian and human and reduce the man to the level of the people working under the other Department that is not paying the men a living wage. That is a sad state of things which should be inquired into.

Mr. McMenamin

There is only one main matter to which I want to refer. I am sorry I was not here when the Minister introduced the Estimate, as I was anxious to know the result of the introduction last year of the 12-word telegram for 9d. I was not very optimistic about that, and I am curious to know what the result has been. I am told by a colleague that there was a substantial loss on the telegraph service. If the Minister is going to retain the telegraph service at all he must at least do one thing involving two other things. First of all, he must give value in the service rendered. Then there is the matter referred to by Deputy Gorey, of the charge on telegrams delivered outside a certain distance. What principle can be put forward for charging a peasant, living outside a stated area, an extra sum for having his telegram delivered? Surely all the people cannot be expected to live within a certain area. On what principle can an extra charge be justified on a man living 100 yards further away than his neighbour? I never could understand that, and I cannot understand it yet. I think it is an unjust, unfair, and improper imposition. Take a poor constituency like my own. The further you go away from the post office the poorer the people get, and it is on these people that you impose this extra charge. As a matter of fact, I have had cases where the only means of transmitting an urgent message to people was by telegram, and I refused to transmit the message because they lived some miles from the post office and I would not impose the extra charge on them. I should like to hear from the Minister on what principle he justifies that tax on people.

Deputy Dr. Hannigan made a general charge against the telephone service in the city. It is quite easy to make a general charge or to make a charge against people who cannot come here to defend themselves. I use the telephone as regularly as anybody else in this city and I find the service as efficient as anybody could humanly expect. Deputy Dr. Hannigan made a general charge against the telephone staff. My experience is that I found them as efficient as any body of people humanly could be. If these people could come here to defend themselves I would not mind, but they cannot. It was only last night when I arrived back from Donegal that I found a friend of mine had the honour to be elected to the new Seanad. I rang up the exchange and asked how long I would have to wait for a trunk call to Donegal, and inside five minutes I was speaking to my friend. In face of that it would be unjust on my part to allow a general charge to be made against such a body of people without protest.

Mr. McGowan

Did you tell them you were a Deputy?

Mr. McMenamin

I am speaking as an ordinary citizen, and I do not want any smart remarks like that made. I am only pointing out how unfair it is for anybody in this House to make a general charge. The Deputy did not even quote one specific case. As to the daily delivery of letters, I appreciate the difficulties involved in the general adoption of that, but I am anxious to know on what principle the Minister is proceeding in restoring the daily service. Perhaps the Minister will ask what practical suggestion I have to make. The suggestion I make is that he should take a map of the country generally and, in those places where there is most likelihood of daily business being transacted and of letters being required daily, he should restore the daily post. I do not see why one area in the country should be picked out as an experiment. The Minister should take a map of the country and, where there is a likelihood of daily transactions about oats or potatoes or pigs or cattle, owing to the intensity of the agricultural production, he should immediately restore the daily post in that area.

As a matter of fact, when I came back to my house I opened a letter asking me to have the penny postage restored to an area of that kind. I will be troubling the Department one of these days about it. In this matter the Minister should adopt a principle and apply it generally throughout the country. I move to report progress.

Progress reported; the Committee to sit again to-morrow.