Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 4 May 1938

Vol. 71 No. 4

In Committee on Finance. - Diseases Of Animals Bill, 1938—Second Stage.

Minister for Agriculture (Dr. Ryan)

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. The Bill is intended to widen the scope of the Poultry (Diseases) Act, 1934, which gives power to regulate the importation for hatching purposes of certain classes of poultry eggs. This Act was passed as a precaution against the introduction of poultry diseases with eggs from other countries, and, at that time, only hatching eggs were being imported because there was a heavy duty on commercial eggs coming into the country. The Agreement now provides for the removal of duties on commercial eggs coming into the country from Great Britain, and it is necessary, therefore, to get somewhat extended powers with regard to the regulation of disease in hatching eggs. The way in which we can do this is to get power to control the importation of all classes of poultry eggs so that measures may be taken to prevent the introduction and spread of any disease which may be carried by means of eggs.

Section 2 widens the definition of poultry for the purpose of the proposed control to include ducks and geese. This is necessary on account of the spread of fowl pest, which is a disease affecting ducks and geese. In the order which will be made under the proposed legislation, eggs for hatching will be imported only under a licence, and we mean to facilitate, if necessary, the importation of commercial eggs, while providing for an exemption from the proposed control of consignments of commercial eggs from the United Kingdom packed in cases of not less than 360 eggs, that is, three great hundreds, which is a small case, and also to exempt eggs coming over the Border and brought in by farmers to the market town.

Mr. McMenamin

The land frontier?

Dr. Ryan

Yes, coming over the land frontier to the market town. Power is also being taken to regulate the movement and use of eggs within the State. I should mention that this is not necessary for the implementing of this Agreement, but it is necessary for other reasons, and I am asking the House to allow this power also. The great bulk of the eggs used for hatching comes from the stations which are administered by the Committees of Agriculture and we rarely have an outbreak of disease in any of these stations. Whenever we have an outbreak of disease, we have no great difficulty in controlling it because the owner of the station is always prepared to carry out any instruction he or she may get from the Department. But in the case of the larger breeders of poultry, when we have an outbreak of disease, we have no power to stop them from selling these eggs and we are taking the opportunity of this Act to get that power.

Section 3 gives power to suspend an order made under the Diseases of Animals Act. At present, there is no such power. An order, once made, can be altered or revoked but it cannot be suspended. It is desirable to have power to suspend in certain cases. Section 4 imposes an obligation on a person who has imported illegally to export the consignment again. It raises somewhat the same issue which has already been raised by Deputy McGovern.

Mr. McMenamin

In this series of Bills, we have another outbreak of licensing. The Minister will agree that this practice of permitting the import of eggs for hatching only under license is very objectionable. I appreciate the Minister's desire to prevent the spread of disease but I also see difficulty regarding the importation of eggs for hatching under licence. If a woman wants a dozen of turkey eggs or a dozen of some particular class of hen eggs for hatching, it is proposed that she should have to apply for a licence to obtain these eggs. She will not do that. The small farmers' wives are the backbone of the poultry and egg industry and, if there is any case in which licensing is objectionable, it is in their case. If the Minister acted in conjunction with the Ministers for Agriculture in Great Britain and Northern Ireland, this provision would be quite unnecessary. If the Minister ascertained whether the Ministers in these areas had regulations providing for penalties against citizens who exported eggs from stations or poultry farms in which there was disease, he might be able to withdraw this part of the Bill. The matter is quite simple so far as our own area is concerned. If there is any disease, its spread should be stopped and we can stop it without licensing. If the Minister could arrange with the Ministers of Northern Ireland and Great Britain to enforce the laws regarding poultry disease within their own jurisdiction, it would make unnecessary the issue of licences for importation of hatching eggs. The matter would be simplified if there were a central body, like a co-operative society, to get in these eggs in large lots and serve a whole district but, as the Minister knows, there are enormous egg-production areas in which there are no creameries or co-operative societies. The Minister realises, I am sure, how important it is to provide farmers who have to purchase eggs in small quantities with the simplest possible machinery. This machinery is cumbersome and technical. These people will not know where to write for licences and they will not write. We are being licensed out of existence. I should be sorry if this House should do anything to handicap small farmers in the production of poultry and eggs and I suggest that the Minister should arrange with the other Ministers as indicated by me.

Professor O'Sullivan

Has the Minister considered how far in all these Bills he is taking more power than is necessary?

Dr. Ryan

I have mentioned the extra power I am taking in this Bill.

Professor O'Sullivan

In all the Bills, because they all err on that side? It may be easier administratively to deal with the matter in this way, but the larger powers are being taken under the ægis of this Agreement, while, if they had been brought in independently, we might have a very long discussion on them.

Mr. Dillon

I may, perhaps, link up these Bills—the Bill we have disposed of and the one with which we are now dealing—because one deals with eggs going out and the other deals with a certain class of eggs coming in, and they are part of a scheme designed to implement the Agreement adopted here last Friday. I wonder if, in connection with the consequential agreements that will fall to be made, it would be possible to open up negotiation between our Department of Agriculture and the Department of Agriculture of Great Britain with a view to getting the British Department to consent to the admission of our eggs into Great Britain unstamped.

Some years ago, a new departure was made by the British Department of Agriculture which imposed upon our exporters the necessity for stamping each individual egg with the name of the country of origin. At present, each individual egg sold in Great Britain bears on the shell an inked mark declaring the egg to have come from Éire or from Saorstát Eireann, as it was. At the same time, eggs go from the six counties of Northern Ireland into England without any such mark and are sold without comment in retail shops side by side with English eggs. They are accepted by the English public as domestic produce. From the point of view of the egg trade, an egg consigned from Dublin and an egg consigned from Belfast have the same advantages. There is no difference in the time lag between the dispatch and consumption as between the two areas, but the exemption of the Northern Ireland shippers from that regulation is a very material advantage not only to the shippers there but to the producers as well. For one thing, the housewife of Great Britain is naturally inclined to pay a higher price for the unmarked egg, because she regards that as domestic produce, and the second reason is that the actual labour involved in stamping each individual egg is a very considerable overhead cost on the general business of putting eggs into consumption.

We all know, for one reason or another, that the egg production of this country has dwindled away to practically nothing compared with what it used to be, and I have no doubt that the Minister will agree that it is highly desirable to extract every ounce of advantage that we can out of the Agreement with a view to restoring that great industry to the position which it used to occupy. If accommodation could be arrived at with the British Department of Agriculture in this matter it would be a very real stimulus to the egg trade of this country and would materially help everybody to get the maximum return out of the concessions secured under the recent Agreement.

Dr. Ryan

With regard to Deputy McMenamin's point, I should like the Deputy to realise that we are not doing anything more in this Bill than we have been doing. With regard to hatching eggs, it was considered necessary some two years ago to bring in a Bill to safeguard the health of our poultry stocks and that Bill permitted the making of regulations with regard to the importation of hatching eggs in breeding poultry. The prevalence of disease in the countries from which we were importing hatching eggs and breeding poultry was very much worse than in our own country. I might say that, compared with other countries, we have a very high standard of health in regard to our poultry. I am now only asking the Dáil to give me the power to make a similar Order by passing this Bill. The object of the Bill is to allow in commercial eggs. Under the later legislation we could not allow commercial eggs in without allowing hatching eggs also. This Bill gives us power to allow in commercial eggs and control the importation of hatching eggs.

Mr. Dillon

How will you differentiate between commercial and hatching eggs?

Dr. Ryan

If we allow in free of any control eggs packed in cases of three great hundreds, and also eggs over the Border—in the case of farmers doing a local trade over the Border—in that way we will keep out the hatching eggs. I do not think Deputy McMenamin is right in assuming that we could act in conjunction with the Ministers in Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I believe they have the same trouble as we experienced here. The big commercial poultry owners cannot be controlled, and if they go on selling hatching eggs, there is no way of dealing with them at the moment. We must deal with this matter ourselves, both in the case of the imported eggs and eggs sold internally. I do not think any small poultry raiser will be injured by this Order. I am sure my experience and the experience of other Deputies will be the same. It is only the big breeder here who has any desire to import a new breed or bring in hatching eggs from other countries. The big breeders know where the Department is and they know the way to apply for a permit. If a good case is made, and if the Department is satisfied that the eggs are coming from a clean source, the permit will be given.

Deputy Dillon raised a point with regard to the stamping of eggs. I think that is outside the Agreement. I do not think the British Government would agree to our eggs going in unstamped. It is one of the prices we had to pay for our separation as an economic unit from Great Britain, and we would have to go back to the United Kingdom in order to get our eggs in unstamped. I will mention this by way of consolation to the Deputy. Legislation is in course of preparation for the improvement of our eggs and the improvement of marketing. Under the legislation which is being drafted we hope to put our eggs on the British market in the best possible condition and get a name for them which will make them eventually better than even the unstamped eggs.

Mr. McMenamin

When will we get that Bill?

Dr. Ryan

I admit it is rather slow in making its appearance, but it will come soon. I am not over-optimistic. The same thing has occurred in regard to another commodity, pork. Pork, when exported, was sold for a long time at a much lower price than the English pork, but when legislation was brought in here to see that pork was exported under proper conditions, it became so well placed on the British market and it was put there in such a good condition that for years it got a higher price than any other pork in the London market. We are not over-optimistic, but we may be able to do the same for our eggs as soon as we get our legislation through. Perhaps we ought not to be too despondent about this thing of getting our eggs stamped. It may be all the better in the end. We are always inclined to be optimistic, and perhaps it will be justified in this instance. I do not think we can possibly get the British to agree to allow our eggs in unstamped.

Mr. Dillon

This stamping regulation was made long subsequent to the separation of the two countries as economic units—it was only two or three years ago.

Dr. Ryan

I quite admit that.

Mr. Dillon

I thought possibly, in view of the fact that our eggs for the purposes of the British market are identical with Northern Ireland eggs, that this territory would be accepted as distinct from the general rule that applies to Holland, Denmark and other continental countries.

Dr. Ryan

On certain markets our eggs have a very good name.

Mr. Dillon

They ought to have. I still think the unstamped eggs are more marketable no matter what their quality.

Question agreed to.

Bill read a Second Time.

Committee Stage fixed for Thursday, 5th May.