Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 4 May 1938

Vol. 71 No. 4

Committee on Finance. - Vote No. 55—Forestry.

Minister for Lands (Mr. Boland)

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £98,743 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1939, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí i dtaobh Foraoiseachta (9 agus 10 Geo. 5, c. 58; agus Uimh. 34 de 1928), maraon le Deontas-i-gCabhair chun Tailimh do Thógaint.

That a sum not exceeding £98,743 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1939, for Salaries and Expenses in connection with Forestry (9 and 10 Geo. 5, c. 58; and No. 34 of 1928), including a Grant-in-Aid for Acquisition of Land.

The total net Vote proposed for the current year is £148,103, representing a reduction of £4,695 on the provision made last year. The reduction is mainly under sub-head C. 2 in respect of planting operations and the maintenance of existing plantations. This does not mean that any curtailment of forestry operations is contemplated. On the contrary, it is proposed to plant 10,000 acres in the coming year as against approximately 8,500 acres during the season now closing. The Estimate last year was also based on a 10,000 acre planting programme, but it was not possible to reach that figure. The final figures of the area planted during the past season cannot yet be definitely stated and it may be possible to continue planting work in some districts for the remainder of the present month.

It would have been possible to do more work in a number of areas but for local objections to the planting of the land acquired. These objections were not heard of until the Department took possession, and in the main took the form of claims to the possession of grazing and turbary rights. In some cases actual ownership has been disputed, while demands have also been made for the division of lands amongst adjoining tenants. These difficulties have impeded forestry operations considerably, as lands have to lie derelict until the disputes are settled. They are occurring in the very districts where there is a strong demand for afforestation and where the land is suitable for planting, and it will be regrettable if some accommodation cannot be found in such areas between the reasonable needs of sheep owners for grazing facilities and the wider national interest which seems to call for the planting of the very poor type of land concerned.

During the past year 13,360 acres were acquired, as against 9,550 acres in the previous year, making a total area of over 122,000 acres acquired since the inception of State forestry in 1904. Of this total area, over 65,000 acres have been acquired since the 1st April, 1933, and during the same period the area planted annually has increased from 3,564 acres to 8,500 acres. The number of forest centres is now 84, as against 45 on 1st April, 1933, and forestry operations have been extended to 24 counties. It is hoped to be able to establish centres in the two remaining counties in the near future.

Taking into consideration all the difficulties confronting forestry development, satisfactory progress is being made. Additional men have to be trained, the State nurseries have to be enlarged, and the rate of acquisition of lands has to be accelerated. Each of these requirements is receiving attention.

Three new centres were established in the past year, namely, at Inchigeela and Ballyhooly, County Cork, and Carne Park, Athlone, County Westmeath, and negotiations were completed or undertaken in respect of nearly 30,000 acres of new land.

The problem of setting up forest centres in the Gaeltacht is especially difficult. During the year it was possible only to establish one centre there —namely, at Inchigeela. Considerable tracts of land have been offered in County Kerry and in County Galway and in County Mayo, but these lands have been almost entirely of a type that is unsuitable for forestry. About 20,000 acres in County Kerry, 10,000 in County Galway, and 5,000 acres in County Mayo have been rejected as unsuitable owing to lack of shelter, to poor soil conditions, or to a combination of both reasons. Intensive treatment and much expenditure might improve the soil conditions in selected spots in these areas, but there is no remedy against the strong sea winds which are a permanent obstacle to successful afforestation, even on the most restricted scale, in these areas. Nevertheless, investigations are still being pursued.

The provision required in respect of the respective sub-heads is as follows:—

There is an increase of £899 under Sub-head A—£14,014. Salaries, Wages and Allowances for additional staff.

There is an increase of £500 necessary under Sub-head B—£2,500. Travelling Expenses and Subsistence Allowances. The expansion of operations calls for additional travelling.

Sub-head C 1—£5,000. Acquisition of Land (Grant in Aid). It is considered that the additional £5,000 asked for, together with the balance carried over at the end of the financial year (now found to be £47,000 approximately instead of £30,000 as in the footnote to the Estimates) will be sufficient to meet any commitments in respect of the acquisition of land for forestry purposes. Approximately the sum of £43,000 was expended in the past financial year. Negotiations have been completed for the acquisition of close on 6,000 acres, and it is hoped to acquire shortly from the Land Commission about 5,000 acres. There are also negotiations pending in respect of about 19,000 acres.

There is a reduction of £6,050 under Sub-head C 2—£130,554. Cultural Operations, Maintenance, etc.—but as I already explained this reduction does not indicate any curtailment of Forestry work as it is the intention to plant 10,000 acres next season as against 8,500 acres during the last planting season. This reduction is mainly due to closer estimating of the year's requirements.

There are now 85 foresters and foremen in the State forestry service as against 82 at 1st April, 1937. Provision is made for further increases in these grades.

The amount required for seeds, seedlings, and transplants has been reduced by £2,000, as, owing to the enlargement of the State nurseries, the bulk of the requirements for the planting programme can be provided from these nurseries. The only purchases during the season now closing were from home nurseries, the quantity purchased being 1,995,000 transplants and seedlings. It will be necessary to continue to purchase most of the seed required, though an increasing quantity is being collected in the State forests. The quantity of seed ordered during the year now closing was 3,015 lbs., the source of supply being Germany (50 lbs.), Austria (800 lbs.), Denmark (900 lbs.), Scotland (625 lbs.), Japan (150 lbs.), United States (285 lbs.), and Canada (205 lbs.).

Approximately 2,000 men are at present employed, this being the period of maximum employment. This was for March. The lowest number employed was in June last, viz., 1,013, but generally a greater number of men was taken on at all periods of last year than during the previous year.

Provision is made under Sub-head C 3—£2,728—Timber Conversion—for the upkeep of the State sawmill at Dundrum, County Tipperary, where timber is sawn and partly manufactured for sale in the immediate locality. Material is prepared there for the requirements of the different forest centres and sawing is done for persons who bring their own timber to the mill. One portable mill has been purchased and is being worked experimentally at Avondale. Upon the result will depend the purchase of additional mills of the same type. The purpose of these portable mills is to extract timber at present difficult of access and not marketable as standing timber owing to the difficulty of extraction. At Emo, Portarlington, there is a small mill which is used for cutting firewood as well as for producing stakes.

The amount required under sub-head D 1—£650—Grants and Advances for Afforestation Purposes—is increased by £50. This sub-head is to provide assistance to private persons and public bodies undertaking planting operations. Under the scheme grants are made at the rate of £4 per acre, payable in two instalments, £3 per acre as soon as the plantation has been laid down and ascertained to be properly done and properly fenced, and the remaining £1 per acre in five years' time, provided the plantation has been properly maintained in the meantime. The minimum area necessary to qualify for a grant is 5 acres, but two or more persons can join to make up the prescribed area. As the scheme has now been in existence for more than five years, the second instalments are falling due for payment, and it is necessary to increase the provision slightly.

There is a reduction of £50 under Sub-head D 2—£350—Arbor Day—as the number of schools participating in Arbor Day is falling off. Some 1,500 schools took part in the first Arbor Day, 900 in the second, and 640 in the third Arbor Day. For Arbor Day, 1938, about 600 schools have participated. The reason for the decreasing number would appear to be that many schools have either no available ground or have already utilised any ground attached to the school.

The provision under Sub-head E 1— £2,563—Forestry Education—is largely for the upkeep of the School of Forestry at Avondale. There is an increase of £1,446, which is almost entirely due to the provision proposed to be made for a new water supply for the school and for the installation of electric light and power. As in previous years, provision has been made for a Scholarship in Forestry at the National University, and for the maintenance of the scholarship awarded last year. The question, however, as to whether this is the best method of fostering forestry education in present circumstances is under consideration.

Mr. Brennan

Would the Minister tell us how many pupils he has in the Avondale School?

Mr. Boland

Thirty-three. Provision is made under sub-head E (2) for the preparation and staging of a forestry exhibit at shows. The Department usually have such an exhibit at the Spring Show of the Royal Dublin Society. We thought we were going to lose it this year, as the Department of Agriculture was trying to take all the space, but we managed to get space again.

The sum of £10 provided under sub-head F (1)—Agency and Advisory Services and Special Services—is merely a token Vote. With regard to sub-head F (2)—Membership Contribution to the Imperial Forestry Bureau, £94—in February last, the Dáil agreed to the payment of a contribution by this country towards the cost of the maintenance of a Commonwealth Forestry Bureau on the same lines as the existing Agricultural Bureaux of which this country has been a contributory member for some eight years past. It is desirable that our Forestry service should be kept in touch with developments in other countries. The Forestry Bureau will fill this want.

Under sub-head H—£10,650—Appropriations in Aid—is comprised income from all sources, such as grazing, shooting and cottage rents, but mainly from timber sales. It is anticipated that there will be a considerably increased revenue this year from the sale of timber.

During the past year about 2,800 felling notices were lodged and, in many cases, it was considered necessary to issue prohibition orders so that the trees might be inspected and a licence issued for such trees as should be permitted to be felled. It is regretted that illegal felling has not yet ceased, and during the year it was necessary to prosecute a number of offenders. The Act is now eight years in operation and its provisions ought to be well known. There is no excuse for failure to comply with the requirements of the Act, particularly as all that is required is to call at the nearest Gárda station, obtain the prescribed form, and lodge it when completed. Otherwise the Act is working very smoothly and is securing the replanting of many areas that would otherwise be left derelict.

Mr. Roddy

If this reduction had taken place on any other Estimate, I should have congratulated the Minister responsible, but I do not think the Minister for Lands deserves to be congratulated on the reduction in this Estimate. I think every member of the Dáil is anxious that there should be a forward policy in respect of the re-afforestation of this country. The Minister's statement, so far as it went, was quite all right, but my complaint is rather about what the Minister left unsaid. I have heard the Minister and his predecessor make statements on this Forestry Estimate for the last four, five or six years, and each statement is merely a repetition of the last one. He deals in a general way with the sub-heads and indicates the area of land acquired and the work done for the particular year with which the Estimate deals, but no Minister for the past six years has attempted to give us any estimate of the area of land available for re-afforestation, and I think the time has arrived when the Dáil should be made aware of the actual acreage of land available for that purpose.

For the last few years, at all events, there is a public opinion, and a strong public opinion, growing on this subject of re-afforestation. It is very generally realised that we are the most backward country in the world in that respect. Experts say that the normal forest cover should be about 18 per cent., whereas the area of forest cover in this country amounts to something less than one quarter of 1 per cent. I think these figures give a very good indication of how backward we are in respect of re-afforestation and of how necessary it is that this question should be studied seriously, and that the Minister and the Department should make an effort, firstly, to find out what area of suitable land is available and, secondly, to set about devising a policy with the object of bringing our position somewhere near the standard set in other more progressive countries.

As I say, these Estimates pretty well follow on the same line year after year. The Minister explains the different sub-heads and the reasons for the amounts stated in them, but the Minister, I imagine, is so engrossed in the work of the Land Commission that he has had no time so far to devote to the subject of forestry. I think it is a debt he owes the country now that he would have this question studied seriously and, above all things, that he would have an estimate made as soon as possible of the area of suitable lands available for re-afforestation purposes. He has, I know, an enormous amount of information available in his Department, and he should be in a position, in a relatively short space of time, to form an estimate, and something more than an approximate estimate, of the actual area of land available and suitable for this purpose. I know that the figure of 300,000 acres was mentioned many years ago, but I do not believe that figure is accurate and I think that actually there is a larger acreage of land available. I do not pretend to have a very deep knowledge of this subject, but I certainly do think, in view of the importance attached to it in other more progressive countries, that it is time for us here to wake up and to see that there is a progressive and comprehensive policy adopted with regard to this subject.

There is another matter which I want to draw to the Minister's attention, and that is that where land is divided by Land Commission inspectors there are very often belts of trees—shelter belts, if you like—and no steps are taken by the inspectors to ensure that these shelter belts or forest belts are preserved. In fact, in the majority of cases where such belts do exist on holdings distributed by Land Commission inspectors, they disappear after a few years. The tenant is allowed to cut down the timber, and, in the majority of cases, he does so. I suggest to the Minister that in view of the prime importance of this subject, he should take steps for the future to ensure that where there is a shelter belt or forest belt of suitable timber on any holding divided or distributed by any of his inspectors, that forest belt or shelter belt will be preserved.

There is another matter of only local importance. For the last two or three years, the Minister's officials have been engaged in acquiring a property in County Sligo—Hazelwood—a short distance outside the town of Sligo. The Land Commission, I understand, has actually made an offer for the property, but that offer was made, I think, almost three years ago. I understand that it is the intention of the Land Commission, when that property is acquired, to utilise portion of it for afforestation purposes.

Three years is a long time to spend in acquiring one property, especially when it is proposed to utilise the greater portion for afforestation purposes. I suggest that it is time to speed up the negotiations in connection with this particular property, and make an effort to do something in connection with re-afforestation in the constituency I represent. So far as I am aware, nothing has been done, so far, in that direction, and I think that it is time a beginning was made. The Minister stated that, last year, he saved £4,000 on the most important sub-head of this Estimate—the sub-head relating to cultural operations and maintenance— and the explanation he gave was that this was effected by better organisation and better appreciation of costs. He stated, in addition, that he proposed to plant 10,000 acres during the coming year. I hope my rendering of the Minister's statement is correct.

Mr. Boland

That is correct.

Mr. Roddy

Surely, instead of effecting that saving, the Minister could have spent the money on planting an additional acreage. Why did he not arrange to plant that additional acreage? Is it that he has not enough trained foresters for the purpose of superintending the work, or is it that, at the time this Estimate was prepared, he had not a sufficient number of suitable acres for the purpose of enlarging the area to be planted? If the number of foresters is not sufficient, surely the Minister should provide additional educational facilities so that additional foresters might be trained. I do not relish the idea of the Minister going outside the country for officials to carry out forestry work. I think he should do as the U.S.A. did when they were working on a big scheme of forestry. They trained their own men. Men trained in such a way would understand the local conditions better than foresters from other countries. In any event, it should be possible to get a sufficient number of foresters trained for the carrying out of afforestation on a big scale in the space of four or five years at the outside. I know that, for 14 years, men have been undergoing training for the purpose of carrying out schemes of re-afforestation, and I am rather surprised to learn that, at present, the Minister has only 85 trained foresters. If there is any impression at all to be made on the problem of re-afforestation, it will be necessary for the Minister considerably to increase the number of trained foresters. Instead of having 85 foresters trained in the course of 12 or 14 years, there should be some hundreds of foresters available and they should be operating in every county in Éire. If we are only going to progress at the present snail's pace, it will take more than 100 years to get any real improvement effected so far as afforestation is concerned in the worst afforested country in Europe. The Minister should give the Dáil and the country some assurance that he is prepared to tackle this problem of re-afforestation seriously, that he will have the various aspects of the problem seriously examined by his officials, with the assistance of experts from outside, and that, when he approaches the Dáil next year with his Estimate, he will be able to announce that a bold, broad, comprehensive policy has been entered upon and that efficient measures are being taken for the purpose of bringing this country into line with other European countries so far as afforestation is concerned.

Mr. Corry

I cannot understand why we should have to import any plants from other countries. Cork County Council have a large nursery and on at least two occasions, at my request, they offered trees to the Department of Forestry. On each occasion, they received a very nice acknowledgement but nothing more. I suggest that the Minister could very well send one of his officials down to examine these trees and see if they are suitable. This nursery is being maintained at the expense of the ratepayers and, when they went so far, I think the Minister should go a little farther and assist them when purchasing trees. He should aid the ratepayers in carrying on this laudable work. The Minister seems to have forgotten that there is such a place as Cork on the map.

Mr. Gorey

Who would be allowed to forget it?

Mr. Corry

There are hundreds of acres there suitable for afforestation. When the land was being purchased under the 1903 Act, hundreds of acres were cleared of timber and these lands have been repeatedly offered to the Land Commission. Whether it is due to the shortage of inspectors or not, no steps have been taken to acquire this land. Outside Midleton, in Glenville, and in Iniscariff some hundreds of acres are available and no steps have been taken to inspect them. I have already referred to the position in regard to the Rostellan estate. We are told that the Land Commission are making arrangements with the Department of Forestry to have the estate taken over jointly—one portion to be used for the purpose of afforestation and the other to be divided. It is rather strange that that position has existed for three or four years and that we cannot get any decision notwithstanding that both Departments are in charge of one Minister. I should like to know from the Minister when this estate is to be taken over.

I pointed out on the Land Commission Vote that this estate is an eyesore and that the burden on the ratepayers is close on £1,700, due in rates. That position is being carried on year after year and one would think that the Land Commission and the Forestry Department would make a bold bid to remove that eyesore. That is my principal complaint—that these areas are left unattended. Apparently, Cork has got the palsy so far as the Department is concerned. The Department seems to be afraid that it would be contaminated by going in there. I suggest that the Minister should have these lands inspected. There are also large areas in Clonmult suitable for afforestation. They were offered to the Department of Forestry, but no steps have been taken to plant them. These are areas in which fine timber was grown successfully within recent years and cut down by the landlords before the estates were sold. The lands are now an eyesore, while they were once beauty-spots. I hope I shall not have to be bringing this matter up again next year. I think it is time the Minister paid attention to it and got it cleared off once and for all.

Seosamh O Mongáin

Níl mise sásta faoi'n méid atá an tAire agus a chuid oifigeacha a dhéanamh faoi scéim na gcoillte. Dubhairt sé, ag oscailt dó, gur thóruigh a chuid oifigeacha go leor talamh i gContae na Gaillimhe, i gContae Mhuigheo is i gContae Chiarraighe le haghaidh coillte is nach bhfuaireadar áit ar bith feileamhnach le n-a gcur. Déarfainn-se nach fíor é sin, agus má tá chó fíor leis an rud adubhairt an tAire faoi chur coillte ag Ard-Fheis Fianna Fáil an 14adh lá de Dheireadh Foghmhair seo caithte fágaim-se ag an Teach agus ar an tír bhreithiúnas a thabhairt air. Tá mé ag léigeamh anois as Irish Press an dáta sin 14/10/'37. Seod é adubhairt sé ag freagairt cuid dá dhream ag an Ard-Fheis o Chiarraighe, Contae Mhuigheo agus Contae na Gaillimhe —“Níl mo chuid oifigeacha sásta go bhfásfadh coillte áit ar bith sa nGaeltacht; tá siad tréis é thóraidheacht. Tríáladh scéim ar an Cnoc Buidhe; chosain an scéim seo £30,000, agus níl oiread is dhéanfadh maide laimhe ann faoi lathair.” Ní sheod í an fhírinne. Níor cailleadh tríú cuid £30,000 leis. Tá béal na fírinne annseo i mo láimh agam an chéad chóip go dtí an naoú cóip den Tuarasgabháil a chuir an C.D.B. amach. Léighfe mé as seo. I mbliain 1892 tóigeadh an Cnoc Buidhe le haghaidh coillte a chur ón sagairt pobuil a bhí i bpobal Chárna an t-am sin—an tAthair Tomás O Flannghaile, beannacht Dé le n-a anam. Tosuigheadh ag cur na gcoillte. Deir an naoú cóip den Tuarasgabháil gur caitheadh £8,750. Is mór an deifir é seo agus an rud adubhairt an tAire, ach má bhí an tAire ag fid-mhaghadh faoi n-a dhream féin ag an Ard-Fheis níor cheart go ngabhfadh sé amach ag an tír gur caitheadh an oiread seo ar an nGaeltacht nuair nár caitheadh. Anois deirtear gur olc an sompla a théigheas i bhfad. Chuaidh an tAire tamall maith siar nuair a chaith sé dhul siar go dtí 46 bliana o shoin—aimsir Bhalfour—agus leis sin cén dochar dá mba í an fhirinne í. Tá sé in ann taibhse an Chnuic Bhuidhe a stopadh i ngeall ar choillte. I bhfoisgeacht dhá mhíle dhó sin a rugadh is tóigeadh mé féin agus ba cheart go mbeadh a fhios agam cuid dá stair. Bhí muid annsin má támuid anois gan bóthar iarinn; ní raibh na “motors” féin ann an tráth sin mar tá anois. Tháinig na crainnte beaga i “steamer” go áit a nglaodhann siad Cill Chiaráin air, ocht míle ar a laighead ón áit a raibh siad le cur. Ní ráibh sa bpobal an t-am sin, té mé ag ceapadh, ach ceithre chairt capaill. Tóigeadh ar a laighead trí seachtaine dhá dtarraingt ón gcéibh. Bhí siad caithte faoi bhaisteach agus faoi sháile agus faoi ghála agus faoi fhuacht ar an gcéibh an t-achar seo, de bhrígh go raibh an chuid is mó aca caillte sara cuireadh ann chor ar bith iad. Duine ar bith a bhfuil fhios aige tada faoi choillte tá fhios aige gurb é an dá chéad bhliain is measa iad—ar nós rud ar bith atá óg mara bhfuighe sé aire i dtús a shaoghail ní chuirfe sé leis. Gan aimhreas cuid den amaillidheacht a rinneadh ar an tír é seo; agus siod é an scéim a bhfuil an tAire ag cainnt air chuile áit a labhruíonn sé faoi choillte. Tá suil agam go bhfuilimid réidh le cainnt faoi seo. Mara raibh a fhios ag an Aire an stair cheaná faoi tá a fhios aige anois é.

Tá a fhios agam go bhfuair an tAire Gearmánach, fear a cheapfainn a raibh a fhios aige a ghnotha dá bhfuigheadh sé a chomhairle féin. Ach céard é an chéad rud a cuireadh isteach ina láimh ach "file" an Chnuic Bhuidhe a bhí leath-chloch meadhchan, agus creidim gur dhubhradh leis: fainic a n-eireochadh an rud céadna dhuite-se, go ngabhfá síos i stair na tíre seo mar a chuaidh coill an Chnuic Bhuidhe, más fíor don Aire. Is mór m'fhaitíos go bhfuil faitíos ar go leor againn céard déarfar fúinn sa stair nuair a bhéas an stair dhá scríobhadh.

Tuige nár dhubhairt an tAire rud eicínt faci Bhaile na hInse, an Choill Mhór, no Gleann-dá-Loch no an Fhairche, no go leor áiteacha eile i gConamara ar cuireadh coillte agus a bhfuil chuile cheann acu ag fás. Ach creidim nach bhfeilfeadh sé sin leabhar an Aire ná a chuid oifigeacha. Ar an Mám agus i dTír na Cille le mo linn féin bhí dhá choill iongantacha ann. In aimsir an chogaidh mhóir cheannuigh fear na coillte seo; chuir sé muileann sábhéarachta ar bun sa Mám, gur gearradh chuile choill ann gur fhág sé cnoc min shábh ina dhiaidh a bhi i ngar cho hárd le ceachtar de na Beanna Beola. Níor cuireadh coill amháin ina n-áit. Tuige nach dtógann an tAire an áit seo agus coillte a chur ann? Tá a fhios agam ceathrar na cúigear daoine sa nGleann céanna—an Mám— a thiubhradh leath-chéad acra don Aire ar rí-bheagán no béidir in aisce. Nuair a d'fhás coillte annseo cheana, nach é an talamh céanna atá anois ann? Deich mblian fichead o shoin ní raibh coill ná fástán ag Lios na mBroc i ngar do Bhéal an Atha Fada; cuireadh coillte annsin agus tá siad ag fás go hiongantach ar dhruim na sléibhe.

Chur Coiste Conndae na Talmhaíochta i gContae na Gaillmhe scéim aníos ag an Aire tréis am mhór a chaitheamh dhá dhéanamh suas. Isé an Cathaoirleach ar an gCoiste sin an Canónach O Móráin as Baile an Chláir, fear a chuireas go leor spéis i rud ar bith a thiubhradh congnamh don Ghaeltacht agus fear nach gcuirfeadh suas rud ar bith ach rud a mbeadh sé i ndon a chur leis. Fear eile ar an gCoiste seo an Ciaránach as an Uarán Mhór, fear a bhfuil a fhios aige an oiread faoi thalamh is coillte is chuile rud a bhaineas le talamh le aon fhear in Eirinn. An Rúnaí ar an gCoiste seo, fear a rugadh is tógadh i nGaeltacht Chiarraighe agus a bhfuil a fhios aige Gaeltacht na Gaillimhe agus a chuid talmhana níos fearr ná aon fhear. Tháinig an triúr seo le chéile agus chuir siad scéim ag an Aire. Shílfeá ar a laighead go ndéanfaidh sé beagán den rud adubhairt siad; ní shin é an rud a rinne sé ach é ionntodh síos agus a rádh leo nach raibh a fhios acu tada faoi'n rud a raibh siad ag caint faoi. Agus do réir mo bharúla-sa bhí fhios aca a sheacht n-oiread faoi agus bhí a fhios ag an Aire agus ag a dhream. Ach is ag an Aire agus ag a dhream atá an lámh in uachtar agus chaith siad luighe faoi.

Tá cumann beag eile againn i gConamara—Cumann Chaiplíní Chonamara—tá scéim againn a dtugamaid seachta nduais do chuile phobal i gConamara. An seachtar is fearr a choinnigheas a dteach agus a ngabháltas fhághas an duais seo i ngach pobal. Molann muid do chuile dhuine coillte a chur agus tugamaid an oiread seo marcanna do dhuine ar bith a bhfuil na coillte aige. Leis sin támuid ag fághail go leor coillte curtha, agus gach ceann de na coillte sin ag fás go cuirfeadh sé spoirt ort breathnú ortha. Má dhéanann muidne é sin leis an mbeagán airgid atá againn tuige nach bhfuil an tAire i ndon an rud céadna a dhéanamh? Tógadh sé a mhisneach ina dhá láimh agus fágadh sé na páipéir agus na "files" ina dhiaidh; cuireadh sé na coillte; agus tá mé cho cinnte is tá mé annseo go bhfásfa siad ach aire fhághail.

Mr. Dowdall

I wish at the outset to say that I have no practical personal knowledge of forestry. I wish also at the outset to say that I am not now criticising the Department of Lands or the forestry section of it, but that does not mean that I agree with the policy of those Departments. I do not—most emphatically I do not—and though I say I will not criticise them it will be rather difficult for me to express the views I hold without in some way reflecting on them. The great question that Deputy Roddy raised is the question of area. The Minister for Lands states that there is only a limited amount of land in the country and we cannot make more. But it seems to me there is a very great division of opinion as to what is actually available. The one thing that is definitely evident is that the Department or the Minister do not seem to be so well informed. As Deputy Roddy requested, the Minister and the Department should endeavour to get a commission or a committee to examine the whole country rapidly and find out what land is actually available and is suitable for forestry. They should ascertain definitely that the land is not suitable for agricultural or other more paying work than forestry. That has not been done so far, and it should be done at once. Any information I have on the subject of forestry I derived from this book, "Forestry in Ireland," by Mr. John Mackay. If I may be permitted to say so, it is a mine of information, and every Deputy who wishes to know something on the subject of forestry should buy the book. It is well worth reading.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There is no money in this Estimate for the purchase of the book, and, therefore, we cannot discuss it.

Mr. Brennan

Perhaps the Deputy will suggest that it should be laid on the Table?

Mr. Dowdall

Perhaps it is not quite relevant to this Estimate, but I must say that I derived most of the information that I possess on the subject of forestry from this book and from other literature. Professor O'Rahilly writes a preface to the book. With the permission of the Chair, I would like to read one or two short extracts.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The book to which the Deputy refers may be a mass of information and very valuable, and Professor O'Rahilly's preface may be very interesting, but we are discussing now whether we should devote a certain amount of money to forestry in this country.

Mr. Dowdall

I will come to that.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is what the Deputy should have dealt with, and I suggest that he should come at once to the Estimate.

Mr. Dowdall

I may say that I have gone into this question already with both the Taoiseach and the Minister for Lands, and we differ in our opinions very strongly. The Estimate before us involves a sum of £132,000, and I think that represents £4,600 less than last year. It does seem to me that if we are so backward in our forestry schemes as Deputy Roddy has declared, we should not have a decrease in the Estimate, but rather an increase; that is, if there is any intention of going on with this forestry proposition. I would not speak about it at all if I did not think it was a subject of immense importance, and one likely to be of tremendous benefit to the country. If it were not, I would not bother my head at all about it. The Minister suggests that he hopes to plant 10,000 acres. He has had that scheme in his mind for years, and the Cumann na nGaedheal Government also had certain proposals in their mind. Though the Minister has improved very considerably on what the last Administration did, he certainly has not done anything very appreciable in the matter of afforestation. Instead of 10,000 acres he is going to deal with only 8,000 in the near future, and I imagine the reason is that there are not sufficient plants available. The Department have acquired a lot of land, but the strange thing is that on the land that they have already in hands they have not done much planting. Either they do not want to do it, or else they have not the plants. If they have not the means of growing the plants, they ought to increase the Estimate and let us have a bigger grant for forestry this year.

There is a big doubt whether sufficient land is available. I believe that there is sufficient land, but the Department do not think so. Deputy Roddy called attention to the fact that they have only 2,085 men employed in the Forestry Department. We are informed that if forestry is carried out on a proper scale it will give a vast amount of employment. Indeed, the figure is put at 25,000 men, who would be engaged in the forests alone, and there would be more employed in the subsidiary industries arising out of a big forestry scheme. If the Department went on seriously with re-afforestation I think they would do much to help the country generally. Some few weeks ago I happened to be speaking to Deputy Dillon in the Restaurant. He is not here at the moment, but what I have to say is not of very great importance, and scarcely needs his attendance. One of the things that got me interested in forestry was the progress made in the Landes district in the south-west of France, on the Bay of Biscay. The development of the Landes district has been proceeding since 1570. Considerable areas were taken from the sea, and the problem is something similar to what we have on our west coast, and on other portions of our coastline. In France they started in 1570 and they finished in 1860, or thereabouts. The problem before us is only child's play compared with what they had to do. Probably the Minister knows all about it, or has read all about it. Yet I do not think that he or his officials can have grasped the problem properly.

Deputy Dillon said he flew over the Landes district in France and that the development that had taken place there had been a most wonderful sight. Over 1,500,000 acres had been successfully planted. Immediately after he had said that, he said that to talk of forestry in Ireland was all bunk, and proceeded to debunk everything in the way of forestry in this country. At all events, so far as forestry went here, he had not a word of encouragement. That sort of mentality on the part of so many people in this country forces me to the conclusion that in the matter of forestry we are all suffering here from some form of inferiority complex. Everything done or suggested to be done here reveals how deeply that virus has entered into our system. Everybody here, including the Department of Lands and Forestry and even the Executive Council, so far as forestry is concerned, seems to be afflicted with that disease of inferiority complex. It is sometimes a source of wonder to me that some super-pessimist does not come along and tell us we cannot grow babies in this country. I mention this because that is the attitude of mind that keeps us as we are. We are not doing the work that is before us to do and we are not making the progress we should make in some things.

Side by side with that inferiority complex we have got in some quarters too much of the superiority complex. This obtains very largely in public Departments and amongst the officials connected with this Department of Forestry. It seems to be accepted that nobody except the Minister and the Departmental officials knows anything about anything. I have been trying to understand what it is that brings about that attitude of mind in these public officials and heads of Departments. These supermen seem to take it for granted that everybody else in the country is ignorant of everything. I think the only explanation of that is that these people are themselves suffering from the arrogance of ignorance.

I did not quite understand what Deputy Mongan said, because he spoke in Irish. I inquired and I found that he dealt with the question of Cnocbuidhe. I also inquired about the Cnocbuidhe experiment. I now see that Deputy Mongan has dealt with that experiment in such a way that from this onwards we will hear no more about Cnocbuidhe, which has been used as a bogey-man for very many years by the Forestry people. Indeed, Cnocbuidhe seems to have knocked the wits out of everybody connected with forestry work in this country.

The result is that it is being used as an argument to do nothing. There is very strong feeling in the country that sufficient attention is not given to forestry and to its development. I hope that sufficient pressure will be brought to bear on the Minister and his officials to force them to take action in the future on a very much more comprehensive scale than in the past as regards forestry in this country. So far as forestry goes, perhaps it is as well that we should not praise him and pass encomiums on him, because of his good intentions. Everybody has heard of the "road to Hell." We should all try here to get the feeling that is so general in the country with regard to forestry expressed here and in the Department in terms of action. In that way more will be done than has been done. It is up to us all to bring pressure so as to bring about that result. In some of those books that I was not permitted to read——

Mr. Anthony

Were they banned?

Mr. Dowdall

Well, the Chair would not let me read them here. I gathered, however, that there was an attempt made by the British Government to deal with afforestation. In 1884 the then Government set up a Forestry Committee of Inquiry. It was said by a Danish conservator who was examined that there were 4,000,000 acres available for forestry. A German expert put the figure at 3,900,000 acres. At all events, I think there were at least available 2,000,000 acres. The figures have never been verified by anyone, so far as I know. It is something that should be verified, because the sooner the truth in these matters is learned the better. Deputy Roddy spoke about the small fraction we have under forestry. He said it was only a fraction of 1 per cent. We have just concluded a debate on the Vote for Lands. I listened to portion of that debate. The thing that struck me was that there seemed to be a feeling that men should get land merely because they were landless. That would be no reason for giving them land. They should also have the capacity and knowledge to farm the land successfully. Since 1919 when Denmark got back part of Schleswig-Holstein from Germany the area of the country has been increased to about 16,000 square miles. That is about half the area of Ireland, yet they have a population of close on 3,600,000. I am not sure of the exact figure. In 1805 they passed a law for promoting afforestation. I have been all around Denmark, and I am aware that their land cannot at all compete with our land for afforestation or for anything else. Why is it that they are able to produce so much more from their land than we have been able to produce?

Colonel Ryan

Ask the people on the Labour Benches what are the conditions of employment and labour there.

Mr. Dowdall

At all events I hope that now at last we will be able to convince the Minister of the benefits to be derived from going in more for forestry than he has been doing. I hope that on the Vote next year we will be able to congratulate him on having done some really good useful work for the country in the matter of forestry. In 1884 there was a forestry committee set up by Great Britain, and I think in 1908 another commission was set up. The recommendation of the latter commission was that everything should be done to carry out forestry work, and that Ireland was not acting as a prudent nation if she did not do so. There is an interesting account of that in the book I was not permitted to read to the House. In that book there is a statement made that sheep land in a mountainy district yielded about 3/5 per acre per annum profit on sheep rearing. The profit made according to that book on the growing of second-rate timber would bring in a profit of £21 odd per acre per annum for the whole period it took the wood to mature. The figure was put in some cases as high as £29 per acre, but I am giving the lower figure. That was from the report of the British Empire Commission that sat in 1920. That seemed to me to be so abnormally high compared with the profits made out of sheep rearing that I made some inquiries. I was not successful in getting the thing verified except in the Ballingeary district in West Cork. In that case I was able to get the actual figure, and that worsened the case as regards the profits on sheep raising. In that area I found that a man carried 300 sheep on 500 acres of mountainy land. He made a profit of £70 a year on the 500 acres. That was much less than the ? an acre calculated by the British Empire Commission. It would seem to me that the Department of Forestry are really only playing with this question of afforestation. Up to the present they have only dealt with 200,000 acres. At that rate of progress it would take more than 200 years before anything at all commensurate with what is being done in other European countries would be accomplished here. I feel rather strongly on this forestry business, and I am thankful for your forbearance in allowing me to go at this length into the question.

I would just say that in any general scheme that is planned—and of course it will have to be properly planned— careful consideration should be given to every aspect of the matter so that no mistakes will be made. A forestry scheme if properly carried out—and I hope the Minister and the Government will go into it very carefully—will give a vast amount of employment. It will stop emigration and will be of great help to farmers who find it rather difficult in winter time to make ends meet. If I might be permitted to make a brief reference to the book again—I am not going to read it—it gives a tremendous amount of information. Ministers probably have all got a copy of it, but I do not think they can have read it. I would urge on them now to avail of the wisdom in that book, to get more wisdom into their heads and to carry on this great work. If they do so, they will be doing some good for themselves and for the country, which is more important.

Mr. Brennan

I think that neither the Minister nor any person in this House would submit that this question of forestry has been tackled seriously by anybody, either by the present Government or by its predecessors. I have not had the advantage of reading the book which Deputy Dowdall has not been permitted to read in this House, but I have had the advantage of reading the Book of Estimates and on the face of it I do not think there is anything I could say, or anything any Deputy could say, so condemnatory of the activities of the Forestry Department as that Book of Estimates itself.

For instance, I find a footnote here to sub-head C 1—Acquisition of Land (Grant-in-Aid) for which £5,000 is provided. The footnote states: "The expenditure out of this Grant-in-Aid will be accounted for in detail to the Comptroller and Auditor-General, but any unexpended balance of the sums issued will not be liable to surrender at the end of the financial year. The balance as at 31st March, 1938, is estimated to be £30,000." As a matter of fact, the Minister said it was much more than that in his opening remarks. Here is a position where the House has been providing £5,000 per annum, apparently for the purposes of grants, and no part of that, if unexpended, is to be surrendered, with the result that owing to the inactivity of the Forestry Department, we have £40,000 left unexpended. I do not think anybody could say anything so condemnatory of the activities or lack of activities of the Department as the facts contained in that statement.

There is no use in pretending that we are doing anything for forestry; we are not. Let us be candid. If the thing is worth doing at all, it is worth doing well. If it is not worth doing, we should not attempt to do anything at all. On the face of it, we are not doing anything. The Minister tells us, and certainly it is not a very reassuring thing, that in cultural operations and maintenance we are going to spend £6,000 less this year than last year. He said that that reduction is being made because they have found more economic ways of dealing with these operations than in the past. If we are going to attack this problem at all there should be some plan, some policy or scheme for dealing with it. There is not, and there has not been in this country ever. It is better for us to face up to that. The limited amount of forestry which we have in this country at present and the fact that at the same time we have an unexpended balance of over £40,000 on that item alone, carried over at the rate of £5,000 a year because we cannot get room to spend it, are surely indicative of no scheme and no policy. The Minister cannot seek to justify that position by saying: "Well, I am doing better than we did last year, 10 years or 15 years ago."

I think there should be some attempt made to get after the problem properly. As Deputy Dowdall rightly pointed out, the advantages that would accrue to this country from a proper scheme of afforestation are immeasurable. Any person who has had an opportunity of visiting the southern end of France, where the lands were planted in the Napoleonic years, can testify to the immense present-day value of the schemes then started. I believe they add immensely, not alone to the wealth of the nation, but to the wealth of the Exchequer in that country. In addition to that we have immense potentialities as far as employment is concerned. Here is an opening and an outlet for the high percentage of unemployment which we find prevailing amongst agriculturists and in rural districts generally. The Minister and his Department under the system which they are operating at the moment will never make any impression upon that problem unless there is some kind of board set up—call it a Forestry Commission or anything you like. There should be some set of persons selected who would interest themselves in this matter, who would educate themselves in it and who would try to impress on individuals and on local authorities the importance of the matter. It is a very important matter. The growing of timber can be made a very great source of revenue to the State, and would provide schemes that would absorb our unemployed.

We have a scheme whereby certain grants and advances are made to individuals for afforestation purposes. Again, on the face of it, the figures given here are self-condemnatory of that scheme. According to the Minister, the Department is prepared to give £4 per acre to persons who will plant their land, provided they plant at least five acres, or if two or three persons join together and plant five acres, they will get that allowance of £4 per acre. Small and all as that allowance of £4 per acre is, they get it in two instalments, £3 first and £1 afterwards. We shall, I think, get nowhere with a scheme of that kind. That is evident from the figures given here because, over the Twenty-Six Counties, this scheme has absorbed only £650. If a sum of £60,000 were being spent on this scheme, we might think that something was being done. Personally, I do not think that it is any inducement to a landholder at all to tell him: "If you have four or five acres which you do not think is very useful to your farm, and that you think should be devoted to forestry, for the reason possibly that it is in a very picturesque situation or anything of that kind, in order to help you fence and plant it, we will give you £4 per acre." I move to report progress.

Progress reported, the Committee to sit again to-morrow.