Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 23 Nov 1938

Vol. 73 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Vote 46—Bun Oideachais.

Aire Oideachais (Tomas O Deirg)

Tairgim:—

Go ndeontar suim Bhreise ná raghaidh thar £145,000 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1939, chun Bun-Oideachais maraon le hAoisliúntas Múinteoirí Scoile Náisiúnta agus Deontas-i-gCabhair, etc.

That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £145,000 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1939, for Primary Education, including National School Teachers' Superannuation and a Grant-in-Aid, etc.

Tá an tsuim bhreise de £137,000 maidir le hoidí ag teastáil i gcóir an mhéaduithe de chúig per cent. sa tuarastal agus sna deontaisí eile is iníoctha le hOidí Náisiúnta in aghaidh an aon Mhí dhéag ón ladh Abrán, 1938, go dtí an 28adh Feabhra, 1939. Is i mí Abráin, 1939, agus as airgead na bliana airgeadais 1939-40, a híocfar íocaíocht na Márta, 1939. Cosnóidh íocaíocht an dá mhí dhéag iomlán sa bhliain 1939-40 timpeal £156,000. Sé is bun leis an mbreis de £2,700 atá á iarraidh maidir le seirbhísí iompair ná an bhus-sheirbhís o Chroimghlinn agus o Cham-Muighe do bheith á choimeád ar siúl ar feadh bliana iomláine .i. go dtí an 31adh Márta, 1939, in ionad go dtí an 31adh Mí na Nodlag, 1938, mar a bhí beartuithe ar dtúis; agus fós costas na seirbhíse sin do bheith tar éis dul i méid toisc níos mó leanbh do bheith á n-iompar. Iompruítear 2,500 leanbh nach mór o Chroimghlinn agus thar n-ais gach lá—500 níos mó ná mar a hiompruítí ar dtúis. Bíonn timpeal 40 bus in úsáid gach lá.

Bhíothas ag súil go mbeadh na scoileanna nua i gCroimghlinn agus i gCam-Muighe ullamh timpeal na Nodlag, 1938, ach do réir mar a tuigtear anois ní bheid ullamh roimh an 31adh Márta, 1939.

Beidh muirear breise do £12,000 le n'íoc mar phinsean in aghaidh na tréimhse ón ladh Deire Fómhair, 1938, go dtí an 28adh Feabhra, 1939, toisc 203 ban-oidí atá 60 bliain no ós a chionn d'eirghe as ar an ladh Deire Fómhair, 1938.

Iocfar pinsin na Márta, 1939, i Mí Abráin, 1939, agus déanfar soláthar ina gcóir sa bhliain airgeadais 1939-40.

Cosnóidh na pinsin sin timpeal £28,000 ar fad sa bhliain 1939-40. Táthar ag súil go sábhálfar £5,000 ar bhun-mheastachán 1938-39 le haghaidh pinsean oidí; ní gá, dá bhrí sin, ach an tsuim ghlan de £7,000 do sholáthar leis an Meastachán Breise seo.

Sé meán-mhéid an phinsin a tugadh don 203 ban-oidí d'eirigh as ar an ladh Deire Fómhair, 1938, ná timpeal £137 sa bhliain.

General Mulcahy

I should like a little indulgence to raise just one point on this Estimate. We are here voting for the principals and assistants in the ordinary and model schools paid by capitation grant an additional sum of £137,000. There is no question at all as to the purpose for which that is being provided, but when we consider some of the things that are brought to our notice in the recently published report of the Department of Education for the year 1936-37, the question really arises as to why, in the present circumstances, additional money should be necessary even to cover the payments that are mentioned here. It is for the purpose of drawing attention to one of those points that I intervene at the moment. It is pointed out in the report that during the three years ended 30th June, 1937, the number of children on the rolls of the primary schools had fallen by 25,000, and in fact the schedules in the report show that the attendance of children in the primary schools between the beginning of that three-year period and the end had fallen by 28,000. That arises out of the condition that is there shown—the condition which the Minister says is not his particular question to inquire into— that there is an almost complete stopping down, in certain directions, of the training of teachers. The report says at page 8:—

"Recruitment for the training colleges in 1938 and until such time as the conditions warrant a modification will be confined to the students of the preparatory colleges, who have already entered upon their course of training, to the members of religious communities, and to persons serving as temporary untrained assistant teachers."

The report goes on to say that at the present time there is only one-half of the number of men in training that there were in 1931-2; that the number in residence will be still smaller in the coming year, and that the number of lay women in the training colleges in the present academic year will show a reduction of approximately one-third in the normal number in residence heretofore.

To meet a situation in which there is a substantial fall in the number of children attending primary schools, a very drastic method is being adopted to cut down the number of persons in the country who can train as lay primary school teachers. In view of the very definite and important work which is being done in the primary schools for the restoration of the Irish language, a work the success of which we get very little reflection of in any kind of detail in the report, but a work of the difficulties of which and the comparative results of which some Deputies have very considerable firsthand knowledge, I would ask the Minister whether he would not consider that at a time when there is a surplus number of teachers, so much so that the training colleges have to some extent to be strangled, he should take some of the experienced teachers that are at present available and over a period of, say, five years, send them to examine the conditions which exist say, in the bilingual French-English schools in Canada, with a view to bringing the important work which is being done in our primary schools into touch with what is necessarily a much more live situation in a country where bilingualism is very definitely successful, and the educational machinery which is assisting that bilingualism to strengthen itself and to maintain itself has reached a very definite maturity. We would then, in a situation in which there are surplus numbers of teachers in the country, be making use of the only type of people we can ever have to carry out an examination like that, and to being the fruits of successful work in other countries to our own country here. They are the only material we can ever use for that work.

The time is ripe to use some of the men and women we have now for that pupose. It might be extended to the secondary schools also with very great advantage to the work of education throughout the country, and lead to a more successful prosecution of the work of restoring Irish. It might be an advantage if 15 or 20 primary teachers were sent within a period of the next five years for about six months to study the experience of places like the French-speaking provinces and the English-French speaking areas of Canada. I think it is training under such circumstances that will increase the amount of work done by primary and secondary teachers. The training available in the colleges will be much more valuable because of such an experiment, and only a complement of lay women and lay male teachers would be prevented getting training, while fresh blood and up-to-date experience would be added to the staff. I submit very seriously to the Minister that the circumstances shown here warrant some consideration being given to that immediately.

Mr. Hurley

I am in agreement with Deputy Mulcahy's suggestion if it were practicable. The trouble is that between men and women there are 750 teachers unemployed, who were trained, some at the expense of the State and some at the expense of their parents. After seeking for work for three or four years they cannot find it. The problem in that respect is very acute, and will require a bigger effort on the part of the Department, and on the part of the Government generally, than has been made up to this. While there is such a very big roll of unemployed teachers, I do not see very much use in increasing the numbers in training for the profession if that standard of unemployment is to continue for some years. I should like to refer to the superannuation of a certain class of teachers who were compulsorily retired on the 1st October on reaching 60 years of age. There has been a good deal of dissatisfaction amongst the teaching profession with regard to that very drastic step. The dissatisfaction is not so much at the early retirement as at the sudden way in which it was announced. The announcement was made in April that teachers who had reached 60 years on October 1st would be retired compulsorily. Under the rules of the Department, a teacher is not entitled to full pension until 40 years in the service. These teachers are denied that right to receive full pensions. I think that was a hardship.

The sudden announcement regarding the operation of the rule was also a hardship. As a rule people look ahead for some time with regard to their financial commitments, and many of these teachers had entered into arrangements about the education of their families well ahead of the six months allowed by the Department. They were certainly entitled to longer notice than that given. I say that there was a case for teachers who were the victims of this rule getting concessions with regard to pension rights. A proposal was made that many who had served 35 years, and who had four or five years to serve in order to get full pensions rights, should have some years added to their service. A very good case was made for teachers affected by such circumstances. The Minister was asked to receive a deputation of Deputies who are teachers to hear the views put forward by the organisation, but, in his judgment he did not consider such a course necessary. While I hold very strong views with regard to early retirement in all industries, no matter whether those concerned are teachers or not, at the same time there should be, at least, discussion with the Minister concerning the position of these teachers. The principal reason advanced for the retirement of these teachers was that others who are unemployed would be absorbed. I understood the Minister to say that about 200 women were retired. I do not believe that 25 per cent. of their positions were filled, owing to the average, so that as far as the primary object of the retirements goes, there was no case for it. If the object was to make room for younger teachers entering the service there was a good deal to be said for it, but when it is found in actual fact that a big proportion of the places was not filled then it fails.

While certain provisions with regard to the retirement of teachers and pensions have been made, there has been no suggestion of any provision for teachers who have had 40 years' service, and more, and who were retired previous to the coming into operation of the latest pension arrangement. I refer to teachers who had service in convent schools who, but for the delay in putting this agreement into operation, would have had pension rights. They were denied these rights and denied pensions. I have already raised the case of these teachers with the Minister. A motion was before the House asking that their claims should be considered, but nothing was done. Great as is the hardship on those who had to retire at 60 the hardship is much greater on 50 or 60 teachers who had retired, and to whom no provision will apply. I should like to know what saving was effected by the retirement of teachers at 60 and over, on October 1st. I should also like to know from the Minister if it is his intention to make provision for teachers who had to retire previous to the present arrangement. Another type of teacher that will not have any pension rights, is the supernumerary class in convent and monastery schools, There is a case in Cork City of a teacher who is about to retire after 40 years of highly efficient service, and because he has been a supernumerary there is no provision whatever with regard to pension.

These are cases that it would be well for the Minister to give attention, to see if something could be done for those concerned. I know that the Minister has a very keen interest in the affairs of the Department and I know that his sympathy is with the people I refer to, but I should like to have some practical translation of that sympathy into actual facts. I suggest to the Minister that there is definitely a case to be made for these supernumerary teachers who have not got pension rights. I also suggest that there is still time to consider the case of those who retired previous to this arrangement, and further that the object for which those who were obliged to retire on reaching 60 years, or over, last October has not been achieved. Instead of being of any use to the Department in the way of relieving unemployment amongst teachers there has been a saving to the Department of Finance.

In pursuit of an arrangement made between the teacher, the Minister and the Department of Finance, the basis of remuneration on which teachers' pensions was calculated was reduced by 5 per cent. some time ago. Subsequent to that arrangement a very small number of teachers were superannuated and their superannuation was calculated on the basis of this reduced remuneration. Then, this increase of 5 per cent. came along and the teachers' salaries came back to what they had been, whereupon the basis of superannuation reverted to what it had been. The net result of this is that the teachers now being superannuated and the teachers who were superannuated before these discussions have the same basis of pensions; but there is a microscopic group of teachers who were superannuated in the interval on a different basis of superannuation. I understand that the reason for the reduction of the 5 per cent. was different from that for which the increase of 5 per cent. was given. For that typically departmental reason, less than 100 teachers are to spend the rest of their lives under a bitter grievance. That is the kind of foolish economy which gets nobody anywhere. Is there any commercial undertaking or enterprise in the world with a pensions scheme for its employees, who would allow red tape of that kind to leave 1 per cent. of their employees under a bitter grievance? I know if we are to abide by the strict letter of the law, if we are to submit to be mummified in the red tape of the Department of Finance that a case in the strict letter of the law can be made for the treatment of this altogether insignificant number of persons. But looking at the thing from the broad point of view and at the amount of money at stake, which is not I believe more than £300 or £400 a year—a matter of no consequence whatever to the Treasury—there is the difference between comparative affluence and the very modest comfort of the pensioners.

I am not addicted to asking people for gratuitous increases to my neighbours' pensions. But when we all to-day get so flathamhail to each other, we ought not to forget the case of these teachers. An identical or an analogous case can never arise again and no precedent can be created. The net result of the generosity which I ask is the disbursement of an insignificant sum of perhaps £500 or £600 at most during a limited number of years. I put it to the Minister that out of this money he is seeking now he ought to give these people the additional stipend for which they are asking. I admit that according to the letter of the Estimates they are not entitled to it, but I submit that in strict justice and according to all the rules of fairness they are entitled to it. I ask the Minister to make this very modest sum available. Any Supplementary Estimate in regard to education gives rise in one's mind to a wider question than that to which the Supplementary Estimate applies——

An Ceann Comhairle

These are questions that may not be discussed on a Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Dillon

Unfortunately, Sir, they may not be discussed on a Supplementary Estimate. But I would very much like to discuss with the Minister now the standards of education and the opportunities given to the teachers referred to in this Supplementary Estimate for doing themselves full justice in their schools. Unfortunately, that cannot be discussed. Fortunately, I can look forward in the particular Estimate to an opportunity for doing so. I would like to hear Deputy Hurley's views in regard to the case of this limited number of teachers who have lost 5 per cent. in their pensions as compared with the remainder of the pensioned teachers. I am sure Deputy Hurley knows them well. I would like to know whether he agrees with me that the Minister ought to remove these people from the position in which they suffer under this undoubted grievance.

Mr. Linehan

There is one point, Sir, I would like to make, anticipating your ruling on this matter. This Supplementary Estimate is brought in within three months of the discussion of the original Estimate. It has been brought in for an object with which everyone can agree—that is, the restoration of this 5 per cent. cut. It is money going back to education. It is money being spent on primary education. I would like to ask the Minister if he is satisfied that the children who are going to the primary schools at the moment are getting value for the sum of over £3,000,000 being spent on education.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is outside the scope of the Estimate.

Mr. Linehan

I wanted to ask the Minister if he thinks that £3,583,000 is being properly spent.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister is not asking for £3,583,000 now. The Minister to conclude.

Mr. Derrig

The Minister for Education has power under the regulations and for a very long time past has had power to retire teachers at the age of 60. In the circumstances with which we have to deal I regret to say I had no option but to enforce the compulsory retirement of women teachers who had reached the age of 60. It is quite true that the rule permitting the Minister to retire teachers compulsorily, at the age of 60, had lapsed for a period. Nevertheless, the power is there, and it was one of the methods by which we hoped to provide employment for some, at least, of our unemployed young teachers. There is no guarantee of course, when a young teacher comes out after being trained, that he will secure employment. The State has, at no time, given any guarantee to trainees that they will find employment. Unfortunately, the attendance in our schools fell during recent years at a very rapid rate. The matter first came under our notice in 1934-5 and we introduced concessions which would ease the position of teachers whose security of employment was being threatened. Subsequently, we found that the decline was continuing and was more serious than we had anticipated, so we had to take further steps—on the one side to restrict the number of entrants to the training profession, and on the other side to endeavour to create vacancies for the unemployed teachers.

I should warn the House and all concerned that, so far as I can see, this fall in attendance in our national schools is likely to continue for a further period of years and may be even greater, according to the information I have, than what we have experienced in the last five or six years. It may, therefore, be necessary to take even further measures. We had hoped that the measures which we have in contemplation might, if there is to be improvement in school attendances within a number of years, be sufficient to right the situation. If there should not be some evidence within a few years of an improvement in school enrolment, then, undoubtedly, whoever is responsible for the Department of Education will have to take more drastic measures. I may find that I shall have to announce further drastic measures if I discover, on further examination of the question, that these are necessary. The amount of notice that was given to the teachers was rather short, it was about six months notice, but a good many of the teachers who are retired were married to teachers, and I find in a number of cases that the pension in the one case plus the salary in the other seemed to be sufficient for their requirements at that age. Of course, I would have preferred if we had not found it necessary to enforce this compulsory retirement at all. I pointed out that the average pension which has been granted to these women teachers is £137, which may not be considered a bad pension in all the circumstances.

With regard to superannuation, it is a very difficult matter indeed to change the regulations regarding superannuation to meet particular cases. For example, one of the proposals that has frequently been made to me is that there should be added years of service in cases of compulsory retirement of this character. It would be quite impossible to secure authority for an amendment of the regulations of that kind. Similarly, while I have no doubt that the cases Deputy Dillon has in mind are cases where one would like to help, I see no prospect of amending the superannuation regulations to cover these particular cases.

Mr. Dillon

Make an ex-gratia grant.

Mr. Derrig

When the question of pensions was discussed some years ago we had to leave out a certain number of cases which we found could not be covered by the superannuation regulations. The matter of amending these regulations is a very serious one and I see no prospect of having them amended to meet hard cases.

Mr. Dillon

There is no necessity to amend the regulations at all. We recognise that it would be unreasonable to ask the Minister to amend then. Ascertain actuarially the value of what these pensioners have lost and introduce a Supplementary Estimate to make an ex-gratia grant to each of them of the amount of the actuarial valuation of their loss. I believe that will meet the full equity of the case.

Mr. Derrig

I wonder has the Deputy considered where exactly that principle would lead?

Mr. Dillon

Nowhere.

Mr. Derrig

If we introduce ex-gratia payments for particular hard cases, I do not know where it is going to stop. Deputy Hurley seemed to question whether we had, in fact, secured the object we had in mind of creating vacancies for unemployed teachers by these compulsory retirements of women teachers. Of course, all the cases have not been disposed of yet, but I am told that because of the 203 retirements which have taken place there should be over 170 vacancies to be filled. We cannot be quite sure if every compulsory retirement will involve new employment through a vacancy, but it seems to me that 170 out of 203 is quite a high proportion. The convent supernumerary teachers, unfortunately, do not come under the pension regulations and I see no prospect of bringing them in.

The only other point is the suggestion of Deputy Mulcahy that teachers could be sent abroad. I do not think that is really going to solve the problem. At the present moment, we have the position that a large number of our rural schools, 75 per cent. of our schools, are one, two, or three-teacher schools. Practically all our rural schools, and a great many of the urban schools, come under that category. In all these cases regulations have been modified in a really serious effort to endeavour to give the maximum employment, having regard to all the circumstances, and we have the position at present that in a school of 30 pupils you have two teachers. I do not think you could go any further than that. These small two-teacher schools form a very large proportion of the total number of schools. I do not think the State should be called upon to provide further assistance in the direction of staffing these schools.

With regard to the larger schools, undoubtedly something more is being done, but there again there is a limit to what we can do in providing for extra employment. As regards the large classes, we have heard mention from time to time of large classes, but the number of large classes is rather negligible. I mentioned personally to the inspectors on more than one occasion that wherever the classes were large in the junior standards they should endeavour to see that the rules were carried out in the most rigid manner possible so as to see that a full staff of teachers was maintained. If necessary, we may have to amend the rules. Although there may be cases of large classes, it is not a serious matter and, even if we carry out the rules in the most stringent way, I fear not a great many extra teachers will be employed.

Mr. Hurley

Does the Minister see any prospect of absorbing into employment the 750 unemployed teachers?

Mr. Derrig

We hope the measures, details of which were given to the public some months ago, will ease the situation, but I would not be in a position to say that the whole of the 750 teachers will be absorbed.

Question agreed to.

Supplementary Estimate reported and agreed to.