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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 23 Mar 1939

Vol. 74 No. 18

Committee on Finance. - Vote 64—Wireless Broadcasting.

I move:

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £46,203 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1940, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí eile a bhaineann le Fóirleatha Nea-shrangach (Uimh. 45 de 1926).

That a sum not exceeding £46,203 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1940, for Salaries and other Expenses in connection with Wireless Broadcasting (No. 45 of 1926).

The amount of the Estimate for the broadcasting service for the financial year 1939-40 is £69,303, a reduction of £5,256 on the provision for the current year. The amount required for broadcasting plant under sub-head F is less by £8,985, due to the inclusion in the 1938-39 year's estimates of an exceptional amount for the installation of an experimental short-wave station at Athlone. There was also capital expenditure in 1938-39 for improved engineering apparatus in the studios. The reduction of £8,985 is offset by increases under other sub-heads, mainly under sub-heads A and B in respect of additional staff and increased performing right fees respectively. The revenue of the service for the current year will amount to approximately £110,000. The revenue for the coming year is estimated at £113,500, made up of £78,500 from licence fees and £35,000 from advertisements and miscellaneous receipts, showing an increase of £3,500.

The total expenditure on broadcasting out of all Votes in the current financial year will amount to approximately £93,000. The revenue for the year thus shows a surplus over expenditure of approximately £17,000. Commercial accounts for broadcasting are not, however, prepared, as in the case of the Post Office, so that in estimating the true financial position of the service, it is necessary to allow, in addition to the Vote expenditure, for the annual charges—interest, depreciation, etc., on the capital expended on the provision of stations and studios. If full allowance were made for these items, the service would show a deficit instead of a surplus. The number of wireless licences has been increasing steadily and satisfactorily during the recent years. The increase during the past 12 months was about 10,000. Special action is still being taken for the detection of licence defaulters.

A development of particular interest during the past year was the installation of the experimental short-wave station at Athlone. Test programmes are at present being transmitted and arrangements have been made to obtain reception reports, but it is not yet possible to say when the station will be in regular operation.

The recent acquisition, with the approval of the Dáil, of a site at Exchequer Street, Dublin, for the purposes of a broadcasting building marks a further important step forward. Plans for the new structure are under consideration. Meanwhile, owing to the expansion of the service, additional studios and offices are being made available in the General Post Office.

The improvement, and the need for further improvement, of the programmes have made it necessary to increase the establishment by a talks officer, a full-time news officer, and a third announcer. A whole-time engineer of senior rank has also been allocated to the service.

Three public symphony concerts were arranged for this season in the Gaiety Theatre, Dublin. Two of these have already been held but, I regret to say, the attendance at them did not come up to expectations. The position in regard to public concerts during the preceding season was similar. If greater public interest in the performance is not manifested it will be a matter for consideration whether it is worth while continuing them.

A public concert devoted entirely to Irish music was given recently—on St. Patrick's Night. There were new compositions and arrangements by Irish composers, large choirs, a céilidhe band playing properly orchestrated Irish dance music, an augmented orchestra. The public attendance was lamentably low, and offered a very poor encouragement to those who initiated this development.

The use of Irish in the programmes has been extended, and an Irish news bulletin is now a regular feature.

The programmes for schools have again been improved, and the greater interest taken in them is reflected in the increased number of schools, which now include them in the curriculum. It is estimated that about 700 primary schools now take the programmes as compared with 400 last year.

There was considerable interference on the Athlone wavelength from other stations during the year, and while, as a result of representations made in the matter, the nuisance abated somewhat, it has not yet been entirely eliminated. An international conference for the redistribution of wavelengths to European broadcasting stations is, however, at present being held in Switzerland, at which this Administration is represented, and it is hoped that the national station will be freed from interference as a result.

From the outline which I have given of the last year's activities, it will be apparent that appreciable progress has again been made in the development of Irish broadcasting. The service, by its nature, is particularly open to criticism, and comparison of our programmes with those of foreign stations is inevitable. While, however, we cannot hope to compete along certain lines with the larger broadcasting organisations which have vastly greater resources of all kinds, I think it may fairly be claimed that, on the whole, the programmes sustain a high level of interest and attraction and that they are framed with due regard to national, educational and artistic requirements.

I do not think the Minister will find many people either in the House or in the country to agree with the statement he has just made, that there was an appreciable improvement in the programme of the Irish broadcasting station during the year. I think there are very few people in this country who are anything like at all satisfied with the programmes we are getting. This is a Vote upon which I have spoken during a number of years. I am one of those who spend a certain amount of time listening-in at night time, particularly during the winter, and, if I can, I prefer to listen-in to our own broadcasting station, but I find it very difficult and there is a very strong temptation to turn the knob and switch on to somewhere else. I want to say quite frankly, giving my own opinion and the opinion of most people who speak to me about it, that their service is a very disappointing one.

I do not expect that we should come up to the standard of some of the other stations in outside countries where they have an immense income. I realise that the amount of talent that is at the disposal of the Irish Broadcasting Station is, perhaps, limited. But I do not think anybody will agree that we are making anything at all like the best use of the talent that we have in the country, and it is that terrible sameness about the programmes, and their monotony, day after day and week after week, during which there seems to be no variation or change whatsoever, that is found so disappointing; so much so that, as I say, I think the Minister will find, if he makes inquiries even amongst his own friends and colleagues, that there are very few people satisfied with the programmes. Apart from that, small and all as the amount of money that is available may be, we are not even spending the amount that we are receiving by way of wireless licences, and from advertisements, and so on, and there is a sum of somewhere around £17,000 or £20,000 of a surplus that is being pocketed by someone— by the Minister for Finance, I suppose, for some other service. Why is that? Is it that the Minister is satisfied that the amount set aside here—£69,303, or the gross of £90,000—is all that he can use or that he is spending, or can he not try to improve the programme by the addition of the other £17,000 or £20,000? There is certainly room for improvement.

If there is one distinctive feature about this particular broadcasting station over the last few years, and particularly over the last 12 months, it is the tendency to use it as a Government propaganda machine. I do not know who is responsible for that, but there is a very definite Government Party bias. On numerous occasions I have listened in to the news broadcast by our broadcasting service, and, as I say, there was a very definite propaganda touch about it. I could mention several occasions on which that happened, but let me just refer to one recent occasion which will be fresh in the minds of most people. We had a very important Bill introduced in this House recently, a Bill in which there was a great deal of interest taken throughout the country, a Bill with which nearly every homestead in the country was concerned—the Valuation Bill. That Bill was introduced by the Minister, and a considerable number of speakers took part in the debate on that stage. After the Minister had introduced the Bill, there was not a single speech in favour of it. Notwithstanding that, the only speech mentioned in the news that night was the speech of the Minister. Now, if that is not Government propaganda, I do not know what it is.

Probably that was the only speech worth publishing.

Mr. Morrissey

Of course the Deputy had not spoken on that Bill. It was on the following day that Deputy Kelly spoke. The Deputy considered the Minister's speech so good that he wanted to inflict it second-hand on the Dublin Corporation.

Mr. Kelly

I did not.

Mr. Morrissey

Indeed you did, and you said it was almost as good as the Bible. The Deputy, I think, notwithstanding his admiration for the Minister's performance upon that Bill, will agree with me that, if we are to have a news service and not a propaganda service, there should be fair play, and that the news given should be balanced news.

Mr. Kelly

Maybe the Minister would agree to broadcast the proceedings here, and everybody would get fair play then.

Mr. Morrissey

If the Minister would agree to that, I would give the Government about 24 hours to remain in office. I have quoted that as one instance, but there are several others. I know quite well that no matter how excellent a programme you may put up, you are not going to please everybody. That cannot be done. I do not think that there is a broadcasting station in the world that is not open to criticism, but I doubt if there is any other broadcasting station that so richly deserves criticism as this one. It is an important service. It is a service of growing importance. There are roughly 140,000 people in this country paying a licence of 10/- each. Not only are they paying that, but every person who purchases a receiving set is paying pretty steeply by way of taxation on that set. These people are entitled, at least, to a service that is fair and impartial, so far as news is concerned. They are also entitled to expect that at least the amount of money that they contribute will be expended on that service. I think it is unfair that the Minister for Finance, or whoever is responsible, should, to put it very plainly, collar a sum of money that belongs to that service and put it into some other service. I do not want to take up the time of the House any further, as it is getting late, and I do not know that I could usefully add anything to what I have already said. What I have said, I have said very plainly and bluntly. The Minister, of course, will not agree with all I have said, but if he ever listens in to the Dublin station, I think he will be inclined to agree at least with some of what I have said.

Níl mé sásta leis an gCraolachán go bhfuil sé sáthach Gaedhealach, mar ní cloistear mórán Gaedhealachais uaidh as an nGaedhilge no an Béarla. Mara bhfuil duine ar bith ann atá i ndon Gaedhilge a labhairt, ba cheart dóibh féachaint le duine a bheith acu a bheadh Gaedhealach i mBéarla féin. Chualamar caint mhór ar an méid atá dhá chaitheadh ar Roinn an Oideachais agus na milliúin atá dhá chaitheadh ar an nGaedhilge; mara bhfuil an Craolachán i ndon duine ar bith atá i ndon Gaedhilge a labhairt fháil teasbáineann sé go bhfuil na milliúin seo dhá chaitheadh go dona agus go bhfuil an Ghaedhilge ag dul ar deireadh in áit a bheith ag dul chun cinn. Tá mé anois ag léigheamh an "Independent" den 21adh lá d'Eanar: bhí uair faoi leith sa gclár i gcóir daoine nua ar an seacht a chlog. Chas cheithre dhuine dhéag amhráin as Gaedhilge ina dhiaidh seo. Bhí siad réidh fiche nóiméad roimh a hocht. Annsin thosuigh and breitheamh, agus a leitheid de sciolladh a thug sé dona cheithre dhuine dhéag seo ní chuala mé ariamh; é ag caint as Béarla fiche nóiméad ar a laighead agus gan focal Gaedhilge as a phluic. A gcuala aon duine ariamh a leitheid de náire? Ní eireochadh a leitheid i n-aimsir na Sasanach a bheith annseo. Dá n-eireochadh, bheadh gach duine dena fíor-Ghaedhilgeoirí, mar bhudh eadh, ina aghaidh le n-a lámh agus a nglór ach nuair a eirgheas sé agus muid féin ag stiúrú na tíre níl duine le n-a ghlór a árdú. O ! go ndéana Dia trócaire ar go leor daoine bhí againn fiche bliain ó shoin ! Tá fhios ag an gCeann Comhairle, cho maith is atá fhios agamsa, dá mbeadh na daoine seo beo nach mbeadh a leitheid seo ar bun. Ba cheart dúinn ar a laighead oíche Ghaedhealach a bheith againn gach coicís. Nuair adeirim sin, nílim ag ceapadh go bhfuil mé ag iarraidh an iomarca. Nach bhfuil go leor dena daoine Gaedhealacha ag íoc na ndeich scilleacha cho maith leis na buic mhóra?

Déanfa seo maith le oideachas a thabhairt dona daoine agus tá faitchíos orm go dteastuíonn sé, go mór mór ar stair na tíre. Na ceisteanna a bhíos ar bun gach uile oíche Dhomhnaigh freagruítear gach uile cheist as na tíortha iasachta, is cuma ó dheas, nó ó thoir nó ó thiar iad, go bhfiafruíthear ceist faoi'n ar dtír féin. Cuirim i gcás: "Cé'n dóigh ar chaill Mícheál Davitt a lámh?" Ní raibh fhios ag aon duine. Bhí siad ina staic. Cuireadh ceist eile: "Cá bhfuair Domhnaill Ó Conaill bás?" Ní raibh fhios ag aon duine. Cuireadh ceist eile: "Cé hé an tAire Gnothaí Eachtracha?" agus ní raibh duine ar bith i ndon a rá gurb é an Taoiseach féin é. Maidir le fios a bheith ag aon duine cérbh é "Bran", níl fhios agam a raibh eolas ag duine acu go raibh Cú Chulainn féin ariamh ann, ní hé amháin Bran.

Anois, feioim ón "Leader", Márta an 18adh seo caithte—páipéar cibé céard eile fhéadfas muid a rá leis ní fhéadfadh duine a rá nach raibh sé Gaedhealach ariamh agus nár sheas sé ar thaobh na tíre seo; cibé a bhí muid thuas nó thíos bhí sé i gcomhnaí mar a chéile ag seasamh ar thaobh na tíre seo,—go bhfuil beirt chigirí dhá n-iarraidh; caithfe eolas a bheith acu, do réir an fhuagra, ar go leor rudaí ach níl focal ann go gcaithfe eolas a bheith acu ar an nGaedhilge ná ar an nGaedhealachas. Deir an páipéir: "Fiche bliain tar éis an Phiarsaigh a fáil bás le Éirinn a bheith Gaedhealach ní hé amháin a bheith saor, ceapadh duine in oifig an Chraolacháin nach bhfuil aon Ghaedhilge aige ar fiú trácht air."

Dá bhfiafruighthe dhíom cén dá uair a chluig is Gaedhealaighe bhí ann le trí bliana, déarfainn gurb iad an dá uair a raibh na hAlbanaigh ag caint, Dr. MacLeod agus Mr. MacCoy. Bhí siad go háluinn agus go rí-áluinn. Teasbáineann sin go bhfuil an fíorspirid in Albain fós—rud nach bhfuil sa tír seo faríor. Is tuatach an rud le rá é gur caitheadh beirt as Albain a thabhairt anall chun cupla uair Ghaedhealach a thabhairt annseo. Ní raibh siad ag maslú Gaedhealtacht na hAlban ná na daoine atá ina gcomhnaí annsin. Labhair Gaedhilgeoir oíche amháin le goirid agus dubhairt sé—go bhfóire Dia orainn!—cén bealach a bhfuil aon duine beo ón Spidéal go Leitir Mealláin? Déarfainnse leis an bhfear seo gur uaisle agus gur áille iad ná duine ar bith a bhí ag cathú orthu. Ní bhíonn duine ar bith ag cathú orthu ach an té nach bhfaca mórán é féin. "Briseann an dúthchas trí shúile an chait." Céard an rud is measa a d'fhéadfaía rá linn ach go bhfuilimuid bocht—ní slur ar bith a bheith bocht cneasta. Chuir Cromail go Connachta no go hIfreann na daoine. Míle buidheachas le Dia, thogh muide Connachta agus d'fhágamuid ar tír eile ag daoine eile.

Gan aimhreas, is Gaedhealaighe an oíche fhaghmuid anois agus arís ó Bhéal Feirsde nuair a bhíos oíche Ghaedhealach ar bith ann ná na hoícheannta a bhíos ann ó Bhaile Atha Cliath. Caithfe mé fear amháin a mholadh a labhras corr-uair—faríor nach labhruíonn sé no nach seinneann sé ach go hannamh; níl rud ar bith d'fhéadfadh a bheith níos áille, cibé i nGaedhilge no i mBéarla a labhras sé —Cormac Mac Fhionnlaigh is ainm dó. Nárbh fhéidir é seo no a leitheid fháil le labhairt ar na haibhneacha, ar na sléibhte, ar na lochanna, ar na srutháin, ar na toibreacha beannuighthe, ar na sean-teampuill no a leitheidí? Dhéanfadh sé go leor maitheasa mar bhéarfadh sé oideachas, cho maith le áilleacht, dúinn.

Anois, tá muintir an Sweep ag caint gach oíche. Cé chuala oíche le Gaedhilge ariamh acu? Nach bhfuil mórán d'airgead na hEireann ag dul don Sweep; nach hé an Teach seo a thug an cead an Sweep a chur ar bun agus nach cathú mór orainn nach bhfuil oíche le Gaedhilge amháin ar a laighead uair sa mí le fáil uathu? Má cheapann siad nach gcuideocha sé le oíche le Gaedhilge a bheith acu, nach bhféadfadh siad corr oíche Ghaedhealach a thabhairt dúinn i mBéarla féin? Nach siar atámuid ag dul in áit dul chun cinn nuair nach bhféadfamuid uair le Gaedhilge a bheith againn uair sa mí?

If I may interrupt the Deputy, would it be possible to extend the sitting to 11 p.m., by agreement of the House, so as to finish this Vote?

Ní minic a labhraim annseo agus ní minic a labhartar an Ghaedhilge annseo. Mar sin, ní ceart mé a stopadh i mBéarla. Teasbáineann sé an méid measa atá ag an Aire agus ag á dhream ar an nGaedhilge.

Ba mhaith leis an Aire an Vóta so do chríochnú anocht. Is féidir leanúint leis an obair go dtí a haon déag a chlog muna gcuireann Teachta ar bith in a aghaidh.

Agreed.

Ní raibh an tAire ag cur isteach ar an dTeachta. Tá cead aige leanúint air.

Má cuirtear órm as Béarla, ní labhrócha mé níos mó Gaedhilge.

I agree with Deputy Morrissery in his remarks about the monotony and the weariness of the programmes from Athlone, in which there is no variation, good, bad, or indifferent, from one day to another. Considerable interference exists in Wexford and district for the last five or six years with reception from Athlone. When I complained about the matter last year, I was told that the power of the station was being increased, and that that would prevent interference in future. The Minister stated that the power had been increased, but, as far as Wexford is concerned, there has not been any improvement. From 7 o'clock in the evening until 11 p.m. it is absolutely impossible to hear the Athlone Station. I ask the Minister now, as on a previous occasion, to have an inspector sent to Wexford district, to find out if there is anything seriously wrong, as everyone is complaining about the very bad reception.

I should like to refute, in some directions, what has been said by members of the Opposition with regard to the character of the programmes. As one who listens to the whole range of radio stations throughout Europe and America, I say that the programmes have considerably improved, particularly in the past 18 months. No doubt they are still capable of further improvement, but to give an example of the sort of items in the programme which might be thought to be rather dull, but which from actual experience proved rather popular, I cite the case of a recent lecture on the development of seed potato-growing in Athlone. I was in Athlone on the occasion of the broadcast, and I walked quite accidentally into a house in which there were farmers who grow seed potatoes, and found that they were listening in the ordinary way, and were thoroughly enjoying the programme. It was a surprise for me, because one often imagines that lectures of that kind are considered rather dull, and that people do not bother listening to them. That was an unrehearsed example of people listening to a lecture concerning an experiment of a technical kind, the development of the seed potato industry. I also found, in curious contrast to the apathy of many people in this country about the Irish programme, that it was regularly listened to throughout the whole of Northern England, and particularly the Manchester district, by people who are not Irish but who are delighted with the Irish programme. I believe that a good deal of the criticism of our programme arises from the old inferiority complex coming out again.

What I believe could be developed in this country is a greater conscientiousness of radio as such, by making the people think more about the programme, conscientiously thinking about it as a whole and, as far as the constituent parts are concerned. I suggest to the Minister that he should consider proposals that have been made to produce a radio magazine in order that people could see beforehand the sort of things that are to take place in the programme. I am quite sure that the publication of a magazine would make people realise that there are interesting talks on world events being discussed, and Irish events discussed in a way that they had not realised, merely from seeing what was on the radio programmes. With regard to the development of Irish music, I feel that the Minister should consider Irish radio in relation to radio itself, and also make the people think, not merely of Irish music in the sense that they feel it has something to do with Irish culture, Irish folklore or part of the Irish revival, and not merely something to do with ceilidh music as such. One of the most essential things is the development of orchestration of Irish music for ordinary purposes, the development of Irish songs and Irish melodies played by orchestras, and to be used as compositions for ordinary music by people listening for the sake of entertainment, and not because it was Irish or culturally Irish. That is the most vital thing we need to-day as far as national culture is concerned. From the Athlone broadcasting station Irish music is continually played, and although a good deal has been done for Irish melodies a vast amount more could be done if the Government would give a grant to people to orchestrate music. I had the privilege of listening recently to a famous musician who has a private organ and he took out a file of Hardebeck's melodies from Petrie's collection. In order that they might be developed so that the public would know about them I suggest, that in spite of what could be done by Radio Eireann, a vast amount of Irish melodies and Irish music could be explored to be used for common entertainment by the people so as to get them out of the habit of mind which was amongst them of thinking that Irish music has something to do only with patriotic music, and to make it part of the normal life of the country. I feel that Radio Eireann could contribute to that to a greater degree. I have one more suggestion to make, and that is that the short wave programme should be developed. Above all, the Minister should consider bringing out in that programme the part played by Irish people throughout the whole world, by giving news about Irish people in every continent, in order to link up the Irish race in a way that has never been done. That I think could be done only if the programmes could be heard all over the world. That would help to enable us to achieve the position we desire in the world, and indirectly help us to develop the sort of thing we want to develop, in order to bring about the final stage of our national development, the unity of this country.

Mr. Byrne (Junior):

I ask the Minister to speed up the setting up of a short wave station. It is very necessary for a country such as ours, whose people are scattered all over the world, that we should have some means of communicating with them. A short wave station is the ideal way of enabling this country to communicate with Irish people who are outside it. I know several people who have had communications from friends in America, Australia and other distant parts, inquiring about this matter. The Minister referred to an experimental short wave station that was set up recently. In my ignorance of wireless matters I do not know whether that means that the station is for experimental purposes. I suggest that it is essential that a short wave station should be set up here to send out programmes which would be heard in all parts of the world. The Government intends to introduce a Tourist Traffic Bill and to spend large sums of money to encourage tourists. Wireless has proved itself to be the biggest advertising medium and the most valuable way to encourage such traffic, and as much use as possible should be made of it in that respect.

I would not go so far as Deputy Morrissey and say that there has been no improvement whatever in the Irish programme. I think that there has been a decided improvement since the present Director took charge. I would at all events say that the programme is not as bad as it was some time ago, but there is still a want of variation. We could do with a little more of the lighter type of entertainment, not only as regards music but dialogues, and a better sense of humour in the programmes, such as "Sunny Talks to Farmers," by Deputy Childers. There should be a little more brightness, as the whole programme is inclined to be too heavy, and overloaded with what I think Deputy Childers found fault—that is, trying to be realistically patriotic all the time, ultra-Irish in everything and in every piece of music and song. That is not the proper conception of wireless. After all, wireless is intended to transmit music, not to develop or orchestrate it. That is for our musicians and our schools of music. There is, of course, an orchestra in the studio. We have a very excellent orchestra. I am, however, sorry to learn that the attempts of the orchestra to give symphony concerts here in Dublin have not met with the success these attempts deserved. It is a very small orchestra, but if augmented could be made into a very fine one.

Something has been done for the development of Irish musical talent. Fritz Brasé has done a great in the Army in the way of the development of Irish music. We have in the Army in Cork at present Lieutenant Boles, an Irishman, and an Irish-speaking bandmaster. And he is doing excellent work. That phase of musical development is not for broadcasting. Broadcasting is transmitting to the people what they want, and the people's taste should be respected. Deputy Morrissey has complained of the political tinge or bias that has been given to communications over the wireless. What else could he expect? Is it not a Government service? Is it not run as a branch of the Government executive? That is one of the things I stood up here to object to. It is a Government service and when our Taoiseach speaks over the wireless he talks of when "we" did this, when "we" did that and when "we" did the other thing. I thought at first when I heard him using the word "we" that he meant this country and the people of this country. Not at all. What he meant was the Fianna Fáil Party. It was of the Fianna Fáil Party he was speaking. That is a wrong conception of the use to which wireless should be put. It is the sort of use to which wireless should not be put. But while wireless continues to be a Government service you cannot expect to find things otherwise. Whatever the Fianna Fáil Party does is, of course, right and whatever our side of the House does is, in the opinion of some people, all wrong.

Hear, hear!

I would like to suggest that steps might be taken at this stage of the development of wireless broadcasting in Ireland to remove the whole wireless activity from Government control, as has been done and done successfully in other countries. The direction of wireless activities should be in the hands of some body or corporation outside Government interference and control. At least wireless broadcasting should be outside direct Government control. While broadcasting is subject to Government control there will be a certain amount of Party bias.

The Government are not using it as a political machine.

Party bias is given to it. If Deputy Kelly and I wanted to say the same thing we would give it a slightly different colour and that colour would be according to our political affiliations. That would happen no matter how unbiased we wanted to be. I suggest that the time has come when this question should be reconsidered. This service is now making a profit of £20,000 a year, That £20,000 might be turned into good use on the lines suggested by Deputy Childers for the development of Irish music. In that way somebody in this country might be got to do for Irish music what Brahms did for Hungarian music. Then people would be got to listen to it as music, qua music, not as Irish music. Irish musical talent could in this way be developed. That could be done if the control of broadcasting were taken over by an independent body or corporation and developed along right lines.

There is a wireless transmitting station attached to the military barracks in Cork. This transmitting station is ruining the afternoon programme of listeners in Cork. Representations have been made to me by people who would like to listen to the afternoon programmes and who have to work at nights. Owing to the particular wave-length of this transmission station at the military barracks in Cork, it is ruining the afternoon programmes. There is, it appears, only one programme to which people in Cork can listen at that time and that is the Welsh Regional programme, but that is crushed out by the Morse transmission in the Cork Barracks. I do not know whether the interference is confined to Cork or whether it is common to all the other military barracks in the country, but certainly it is not fair that this interference should be allowed to continue. It is not fair to Cork listeners that their reception should be ruined by that transmission system. I suggest to the Minister that he should take some steps to have that very serious interference stopped. It ought to be stopped.

When we get on to this new building in Exchequer Street there will be an opportunity of setting up wireless broadcasting on a new basis in this country. That will be good for wireless and, from the Irish point of view, it will be no harm. I should like to say to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs that his hands are quite full enough as Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. He has a very large and heavy responsibility in that direction and so, he should not be saddled with the additional responsibility for a highly specialised matter like wireless broadcasting, for which he has not the musical or technical training.

Mr. Esmonde rose.

I presume it is intended to give the Minister a few minutes in which to reply.

I have just only a few words to say.

I just made a suggestion.

What I have to say to the House has nothing to do with Party politics. It is only concerned with wireless listeners. I see by this Estimate that we made a profit of something like £20,000 last year. I do not know what the profit was the year before. The people who are supporting the wireless programme in this country are the people who pay their 10/- licence every year. Very many of these people find great difficulty in paying that sum. There are poor people in the country who pay this 10/- yearly and they deserve a return for the money. But from 9.30 to 10.30 every night we hear the words "Sponsored programme." We have to listen to that sponsored programme which brings in a revenue which appears in the heading under "Advertising," £35,000. I think that should be given back in value to the people who pay the 10/- licences for their wireless sets. It could be given back in different ways. Those ways could be worked out by the people concerned. We have this £35,000 there in hands. Now, this wireless service should not be made a revenue-making concern. The service should be given back to the people in some form and of some value. I made this point last year and I am making it now and shall continue to make it again, if necessary.

The other point I wish to make is this: Deputy O'Neill referred to Party propaganda. Now I would like to say this—we have got a very powerful medium in this country—the wireless —and we should let the world know through the medium of the wireless what our position is in international affairs. I am in the position of being able to listen to the wireless every night from foreign stations because I understand what is said in French and German. I hear propaganda going on all over the world and I often wish our broadcasting authority would let the world know what our position is. We should use our wireless to show to the world, and make other countries realise, what is going on at the present time in this country. We want to have the Border abolished. We should let other countries know everything about the partition of this country and that we want the Border abolished. What we have to say on that matter should be translated into every language in Europe and half-an-hour should be spent, from time to time, speaking to the peoples of Europe—in French one time, in Spanish another time, in German another time, and so on—telling the people of the world what we want done about the Border—telling them the grievance we have on this question of Partition and the Border.

That is what our wireless service should be devoted to. That £35,000 profit should be put into every language under the sun so that we could tell the world where we stand, and when the British Foreign Office goes to make a treaty here and there, and when thy put their propaganda forward in this way and that, why should we not allow our wireless to say what we want and translate the language in which it goes across the air into every language, just as every nation in the world is doing at the present time? I listen-in on my wireless at night and I hear nothing except British propaganda, French propaganda, German propaganda, and every other kind of propaganda, but where is our Irish propaganda? It is not there.

I naturally welcome any criticism that may be directed at the Department of Broadcasting. First of all, it is by criticism that we can improve our services, and it is by criticism, I think, that we can claim we have improved our services. Deputy Morrissey complained of the sameness of the programmes, but I think that if you were to bring the population of Dublin into one theatre, the population of the city would be divided in their opinions as to whether the entertainment provided was the type they desired or the type that they regarded as entertainment. What is required, as far as wireless is concerned, is intelligent selection of the type of programme you desire. I have no doubt that there are many portions of the wireless programme we diffuse that are not acceptable to a great many people, but there are other items which are very acceptable and regarded as very entertaining by the same type of people. It would be quite impossible to satisfy all tastes in respect to entertainment. I think everybody will agree on that. We are doing our utmost, as far as lies within our power, to provide entertainment suitable to the greatest possible number of people.

The expressions of criticism that were given here in the House are typical of the difference of opinion that exists outside. Deputy Morrissey does not seem quite satisfied with the programme as a whole, but Deputy O'Neill is satisfied that, as a programme, it is good. Deputy Childers believes that there are certain types of talks still necessary, but he is satisfied that the type of talks and entertainment we are giving is fairly satisfactory. It can, therefore, be seen that it would be impossible to please everybody. I think that Deputy Morrissey is as sensible a Deputy as there is in the Hosue, and I am sure he will agree with that statement. I do not admit for a second that broadcasting is being used for political propaganda by one Party. The director is a free agent. He is under my jurisdiction, but in no circumstances do I ever interfere with the director's direction of his job. I do not think it is fair to charge that particular department with misuse of their powers, because I do not think there has been any misuse. There may be, as Deputy O'Neill suggested, a little deeper colouring in what Deputy Morrissey may see in a talk, but Deputy O'Neill does not seem to have seen the same deep colouring as Deputy Morrissey seems to have seen; so there it is.

There has been criticism in respect to certain posts that have been advertised recently. Deputy Mongan raised the question of advertisements for a news talks officer, and said that no special mention was made in regard to Irish being required. We have a talks officer who deals mainly with Gaelic talks, Gaelic discussions, Gaelic drama, and so on, and we are satisfied that that Gaelic talks officer is doing the work that is required in respect of Gaelic. We do not bar any talks officer who may be a competent Gaelic speaker from applying for this job. In fact, we will welcome an officer if he has Irish, to a greater degree than if he has not Irish. As far as programmes in Irish, are concerned, I believe that even in this House there would be a difference of opinion. Some people believe we are giving too much to the Gaelic side of the programme and others contend that we are not giving sufficient. I feel that we are doing the sensible thing. The Director himself is a competent Gaelic scholar and a man who is very sympathetically disposed towards the Gaelic language and I think he is using wisdom and discretion in the manner in which he is dealing with the use of Gaelic on the air.

Deputy Corish spoke about interference. Unfortunately, interference has not been completely cleared away. Klaipeda seems to be still the culprit. I do not know what the position will be now that they have been taken over by Germany, but we have a couple of people at present at a conference in Switzerland who are forcing the pace in respect to the position of Klaipeda and ourselves. I do not know whether the position will be cleared or not as a result of the recent political happenings over there, but I think I can safely say that, as a result of the conference, the interference will be removed. At any rate, I sincerely hope so.

Deputy Childers mentioned the question of a radio magazine. I think that matter was raised before, but I am afraid it would not be a matter for the Government. I suggest the Deputy should offer his suggestions to the people who are already publishing a radio magazine. Reference was made to the short-wave station. The position now is that we are awaiting reports as to the quality of the reception abroad. So far, we have not secured any reports as to the effect of the broadcasts in Canada, America or Australia, but we are expecting these in the very near future. I may mention also that, in regard to the surplus of which Deputies Esmonde and Morrissey spoke, there is a very large deficit still—there is a deficit of something like £100,000 on broadcasting— and until that is completely wiped out most of this surplus will have to go towards reducing that deficit.

That is purely capital expenditure. I mean that you are making a deficiency on the original capital expenditure of the whole scheme.

The expenditure, practically since broadcasting was established. I think it is only within the last four years that we are beginning to show a surplus. Since it is 11 o'clock, Sir, and the Vote is not being opposed, I shall say no more.

What about the military interference in Cork?

I shall have that matter examined.

Vote put and agreed to.
The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until Tuesday, 28th March, at 3 p.m.
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