Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 19 Apr 1939

Vol. 75 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Money Resolution—Offences Against the State Bill.

Minister for Defence (Mr. Aiken)

I move:

That it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas of any expenses incurred by any Minister of State in the administration of any Act of the present ‘Session to make provision in relation to actions and conduct calculated to undermine public order and the authority of the State, and for that purpose to provide for the punishment of persons guilty of offences against the State, to regulate and control in the public interest the formation of associations, to establish special criminal courts in accordance with Article 38 of the Constitution and provide for the constitution, powers, jurisdiction, and procedure of such courts, and to make provision generally in relation to matters connected with the matters aforesaid.

Mr. Cosgrave

How much money is involved?

Mr. Ruttledge

I could not give any idea. I do not think it will be very much. If special courts have to be set up, provision will have to be made for the remuneration of the members of such courts. Also, if there are any persons interned, provision will have to be made for a commission to examine the cases of those interned. If there is an emergency there may have to be an extension of the Gárda Síochána. I cannot give the approximate sum.

Mr. Cosgrave

When the Minister mentioned internment, has he in mind something within the four corners of the Bill, or has he in mind a war situation?

Mr. Ruttledge

That is the only situation I have in mind.

Mr. Cosgrave

A war situation?

Mr. Ruttledge

A situation here in which the State will be threatened in such a way that it is obvious that there is a state of emergency.

Mr. Cosgrave

That is not what I mean.

Professor O'Sullivan

It is only as regards this Bill?

Mr. Cosgrave

It does not refer to aliens at all?

Mr. Ruttledge

No.

Professor O'Sullivan

Unless they commit an offence under this Bill?

Mr. Ruttledge

Yes.

Professor O'Sullivan

When a man is appointed a member of the special tribunal he may be paid his remuneration. Then suppose Section 5 goes out of operation, what is his position in connection with the expenses which arise? Does the remuneration continue?

Mr. Ruttledge

No, only while the Special Court is there.

Professor O'Sullivan

He goes back to civil life?

Mr. Ruttledge

Yes.

Professor O'Sullivan

Without remuneration and without protection?

Mr. Ruttledge

We will try to get some arrangement with Finance on that.

Mr. Cosgrave

Perhaps this would not be in the Minister's office—if war emergency arises some duties would fall upon the Gardaí Síochána. It is not intended to make any provision for a situation of that kind at all through this Bill?

Mr. Ruttledge

No.

Mr. Cosgrave

Are there any precautions?

Mr. Ruttledge

Precautions are under consideration with regard to the position of aliens under this Bill in certain circumstances.

Mr. Davin

Will the Minister say, as a result of the large number of alleged criminals in the country, which is supposed to be the cause of the introduction of this Bill, whether it is intended to recruit an additional number of Gárdaí or what is the expenditure which would have to be incurred bearing upon the coming into operation of this measure?

Mr. Ruttledge

The provision is that at the moment it is intended to recruit something like 200 members of the Gárda Síochána, but the circumstances and conditions that may arise at a particular time may necessitate the increasing of that number. At the moment, however, I am not in a position to state what that may be.

Mr. Davin

Is not the recruitment of the famous 222 additional Gárdaí for the purpose of dealing with the normal vacancies caused by deaths or resignation in the Gárda Síochána?

Mr. Ruttledge

Yes.

Mr. Davin

If we had in the country the number of criminals which justified the introduction of this measure, surely the Minister ought to make provision for additional expenditure—or is this Bill going to mean additional expenditure to deal with the number of alleged criminals?

Mr. Ruttledge

In introducing this Bill I did not talk of the number of criminals in the country. I did not use the word "criminals."

Mr. Davin

What is the necessity then for the introduction of the Bill?

Mr. Ruttledge

To enable the country to take any precautions that may be needed.

Resolution put and agreed to.

Resolution reported and agreed to.