Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 11 May 1939

Vol. 75 No. 17

Committee on Finance. - Resolution No. 10—General.

Question again proposed:—
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.

A figure appears on the cover of the Supply Service Estimates which is supposed to represent the anticipated expenditure on the Supply Services during the coming financial year. Deputies on the far side of the House will remember that they came in here pledged to reduce taxation by £2,000,000 per annum. At first glance, it would appear that they had not increased it by more than £9,000,000 but when it is remembered that the Supply Service Estimates to-day appear in an amended form, as compared with those published in 1931-2, Deputies may begin to realise that the increase is far greater than they know and that the burden is proportionately heavier. If we take the Supply Services Estimate for 1931-32 on the same basis as the one published for 1939-40, we find that the Supply Services have been increased from £19,389,000 to £30,618,000 over that period. They are now £11,300,000 per annum greater than they were when Fianna Fáil came into office. If we add the Central Fund Services to ascertain the total anticipated expenditure in the two financial years, that of 1931-32 was £24,213,000 and that for this year is £35,716,000, an increase of £11,500,000 in expenditure, to be financed either out of revenue or borrowing.

But this is not all, because the Banking Commission directed the attention of this House to a fact which is too frequently forgotten, and that is that the Supply Services Estimates, as published in the White Book, bear little relation to the expenditure actually undertaken in any financial year. The Banking Commission pointed out that in 1931-32 we had 25 Supplementary Estimates; in the following year, 31; in the year after, 37; in the year after, 35; in 1935-36, 20, and in 1936-37, 30. In the year 1932-33 and in 1933-34 the Supplementary Estimates represented additional expenditure of over £5,000,000. In the year 1936-37 the Supplementary Estimates represented an additional net expenditure of £2,235,765. I do not think there can be any doubt, from the tone adopted by the Minister for Finance when he introduced his Budget yesterday, that it is his intention, before this financial year closes, to introduce Supplementary Estimates similar to those which he has introduced and carried through this House in the previous six years of his administration. So that, though the burdens outlined in his speech yesterday may shock the public of this country, they should realise now that the tale is only half told, and that before the end of this financial year further burdens will probably be forthcoming which the public will have to meet.

Nor should we let this occasion pass without paying our annual tribute to the mathematical distinction of the Taoiseach. It was ever his practice to assist us, when discussing financial business here, by a short display of his well-known flair for mathematics. He told us that after years of research, historical and mathematical, he had come to the conclusion that the taxable capacity of this country compared with that of Great Britain was as 1 to 66. He has made impassioned speeches on that subject, even to shaking down his lock of hair to evoke the plaudits of his supporters when that conclusion was made. It will be a salutary thing to invoke his aid for the purpose of comparing the burden that this Government propose to lay on our people now with that which the British Government propose to lay upon their people. Let us apply the formula of 66 to 1 to our circumstances. It was high treason four years ago to challenge it. It was sabotage and playing England's game to question that figure four or five years ago. Applying it now, we discover that the Minister for Finance's modest proposal is that our people should pay £2,357,256,000 to meet the Supply Estimates of this year, as compared with the modest £900,000,000 which the British Chancellor of the Exchequer asks from his people.

It is well to consider, while the Minister for Finance raises the income-tax to 5/6 in this country and is saluted by Deputy Corish for having spared the poor man, first, whether there is any justification for that and, secondly, its probable repercussions on the poor man. In Great Britain, where the income-tax rate has been raised to 5/6 in the £ they are spending at the rate of £2,000,000 sterling per day, over and above their normal services, on defence preparations. In that situation, spending, as she is, close on £700,000,000 sterling over and above the expenditure on her normal services, she thinks it is defensible to put on an income-tax of 5/6. The greater part of the surplus expenditure in Great Britain at the present time is calculated to stimulate her foundation industries—steel, iron, coal, textiles and machinery. All these are working at high pressure as a result of the expenditure which has called for the imposition of this exceptional tax.

In our country, where the income-tax has been raised to this figure, it is notorious that the agricultural industry is semi-bankrupt, and it is also notorious that a number of the industrial concerns which this Government has been responsible for establishing, are on the verge of economic collapse. It is common knowledge that the additional burden represented by this imposition on the income-tax is calculated to drive many of them over the precipice into bankruptcy. Now, it is great fun for Deputies, who imagine that you can achieve anything by passing an Act of Parliament, to pass an Act of Parliament which compels your neighbour to pay out another 1/- on his income-tax. There are very few of us who will be greatly bothered by the increase in the income-tax or the increase in the super-tax, either of the first or second degree; but unfortunately, the fact is that you cannot alter economic laws by passing Acts of Parliament. It is an illusion that every democracy in the world has allowed itself to be deceived by, that you can halt the logical sequence of economic laws by passing high-falutin' Acts of Parliament. You cannot, and if you think you can save the workingman, the wage-earner, from the repercussions of a rise in the income-tax from 4/6 to 5/6 under existing circumstances, you never made a greater mistake in your life.

I ask Deputies to consider for a moment what it means. There are very few mighty financial corporations in this country. The bulk of the employment in this country is provided by people in a moderate way of business. The man who employs 20 or 30 people is the average, decent employer. Take the distributive trade, for instance. Deputies must have recently read the accounts published of the big establishments in the City of Dublin. They are all hard pressed. They are all trading on a wholly uneconomic margin of profit. I ask Deputies to consider what will happen when their profits are required to yield a further 1/- in the income-tax? What would Deputies themselves do in such circumstances? Suppose you come to the point when you cast up your accounts at the end of the year and you find that instead of having a surplus to distribute you have a deficit and that you must take from your reserves? What can you do? You cannot go out into the public street and drive people into your shops and make them buy. If the people do not want to buy you cannot make them buy. Then, on the other side, you cannot raise the price to the point that would yield you a profit, because if you do, the people will not deal with you at all. What can you do? There comes a Saturday night when you want to pay the men who work for you and you are driven to this conclusion—you have only a certain sum for wages—that you must reduce the men's wages or else you must let one or two of your men go. I agree, at once, that before a person who has any margin of profit to be passed on, should dream of reducing the wages or dismissing a man, he ought to cut himself down to the level at which is own men are working, so that all together they could survive the period of distress. But suppose the imposition of these taxes results in the employer being cut down not alone below his employees but to a point where he is actually involved in a loss? What is such a man going to do? One cannot ask men to work for nothing. The net result is that somebody is going to lose his job. Now, that, to most men who have been habitually working with old friends, is a very distressing experience. All of us know some man or other who has not been too scrupulous to run his establishment on the strictest principles of economic administration. He could, if his whole establishment were keyed up to the maximum efficiency, discharge a man who could, conceivably, be done without. Is not the effect of this new imposition upon the head of such an establishment, imposing an obligation upon that man to protect himself and the other men who are working in the establishment, to key up his whole business to a maximum efficiency, and to let the man that he can do without go? The head of an establishment has failed in his duty not only to himself, but to the men working with him if, by laches, he allows the whole enterprise to become involved because he has failed to make it as efficient as the events require. He is faced with that duty so as to save his own livelihood and the livelihood of other men who work for him from being destroyed. It is his duty to preserve the livelihood of the majority of the people who work in the establishment. It is his duty to do everything possible so that he might make ends meet at the end of every year. Now, this additional burden imposes on that man an obligation which must react on those least able to afford it. From that point of view, in my judgment, the imposition of 1/- additional in the income-tax is a reckless procedure.

Look at the picture presented by England at the present moment. You have there clearly a precedent for the scaling of taxes. You have there increased employment in the steel industry which is working at its maximum capacity. You have increased employment in the coal industry which is working at its maximum capacity, and even in some cases working at such pressure that it is unable to catch up on its orders. You have the machinery and the electrical equipment firms working three shifts a day. That being the position there, it would be no harm to glance for a moment at our condition. The income from our agricultural industry has gone down in the most extraordinary degree in the last seven years. I have the figures here. The net income of our agricultural industry, as published in the Banking Commission Report and brought up to date in the Irish Trade Journal, reveals these figures:—In 1931 the net income of our agricultural industry was £47.7 millions; in 1932 it was £38.8 millions; in 1933 it was £33.3 millions; 1934, £30.3 millions; in 1935, £34.3 millions; in 1936 it was £39.3 millions. The figure for 1937 is not yet available. These are the figures as revised in the current issue of the Irish Trade Journal.

We have passed through a period which has been described in the course of the agricultural debate as one in which the resources of our principal industry have been shattered. The earning capacity of the large part of our people living on the land has been virtually destroyed. Our national income is fast disappearing. The value of our agricultural industry may have recovered somewhat since the negotiation of the Agreement with Great Britain. But with all this loss in our agricultural industry we are asked to meet the same kind of burden as Great Britain is meeting at the present time. I agree that in certain conditions the Government may ask the people for short periods, very exceptional periods, to radically amend their way of living in order to meet an emergency. I agree that the Government may, for legitimate reasons, ask the people to do that. But it must be for a sufficient purpose and in a situation where the Government has reason to believe that the resources are there for production if the people try to get them.

I submit to this House that we are confronted with the position to-day, as has been abundantly emphasised by the Banking Commission Report, of the birds, after the last six years, coming home to roost. We find ourselves drifting into a period of peculiar distress, after six years of frantic extravagance. The money is not there. If you start now by simply putting on the screws, what is going to happen is that you are further going to wreck the machine which produced the national income, and this would go on until we reach the point where there would not be a national income in this country to meet the normal current requirements without a material reduction in the standard of living of all of us.

I agree that the fly-by-nights and the profiteers and the exploiters of the consumer in this country are getting—and will do so so long as they are permitted to get it—a very satisfactory income. I am thinking of the mass of the people. I wonder am I right when I say that, when the Minister was drafting this Budget, fortified by the Banking Commission report he tried to make a stand for some kind of moderation, and was advised by his colleagues of the Cabinet that it was politically impossible. I suspect that that is true. I assume that the majority of the Fianna Fáil Party did not read and will not read the Banking Commission report, and I am pretty sure that if they did they would not understand much of it, but I suspect that the Minister did peruse that report, and does know what is in it. I presume that it was his perusal of that report which induced him to produce the record with which he presented us yesterday of the dead-weight debt, and the other appallingly alarming symptoms which he thought it best to publish in his own speech rather than to have noted in the speeches of the Opposition. The per capita dead-weight public debt of this country has gone up from £10 6s. to £17 3s. That is the existing debt, and to that must be added—if a proper estimate of our economic position is to be got—our growing liability in respect of pensions, not the pensions that we are paying now, but the pensions which are accumulating in the service of public servants, and which will fall to be paid when those public servants retire in due time; the steadily increasing liability that we have under the Land Act, which requires the State to shoulder the burden of 50 per cent. of every land annuity fixed under the 1933 Land Act, and the substantial liability that lies ahead of us if we are to make any real impression on the housing problem in the City of Dublin and the City of Cork.

The Minister yesterday, when dwelling on those staggering burdens, said he anticipated criticism, but he wondered if his critics would bear those facts in mind when they themselves were advocating additional taxation. That is where the Minister never understands. The difference between the Minister and us is this, that we have foreseen the probable trend and have been appalled by its possibilities. We are going to find ourselves requiring essential services, and we will not have the money to pay for them. I remember saying in this House year after year that, if the course of public expenditure continued on the lines on which it has been going, we would find ourselves at some time unable to maintain the social services that we consider necessary because we would not have the money. If the Minister can say to-day that certain social services may not be discussed because there is no money to finance them, whose responsibility is that? What has become of the difference between the Supply Services Estimates of 1931 and the Supply Services Estimates of 1938? The Minister says that £5,500,000, I think, has been expended on social services. Suppose that is admitted, though it is not true, what has become of the other £6,000,000? Where has that gone? Where is it going? Apart from the other £6,000,000 of direct taxation that is visible, what about the £2,000,000 on wheat, what about the £1,000,000 on sugar, what about the industrial alcohol, what about the millions that have been spent on other "cod" schemes, and which our people have had to pay and are paying? When the Minister rebukes the Opposition for contemplating social services, the desirability of which I do not think he will deny, will he tell us what has become of the £6,000,000 over and above the £5,000,000 which he claims for social services, and how can he justify the expenditure of £3,500,000 on schemes which nobody wants, and which do no substantial good to any considerable section of the community, when there are really necessary and desirable schemes which would benefit everybody and buttress the institutions of the State but which cannot be undertaken through want of money?

Deputy Corish is greatly gratified that there is no tax on sugar. He does not know the Minister as well as we do. He does not realise that for every bag of sugar that is cut down on the output of Tuam the Minister collects the full tax. Last year he collected, I think, £270,000 in tax on sugar. This year he confidently expects £500,000, but it is no longer fashionable to put your taxes in the Budget statement. You pass an Act of Parliament in 1933, trusting to God that the more innocent will forget about it, and you proceed to collect your tax in 1939, and the innocent, like Deputy Corish, have forgotten all about it. The Minister hopes to get £500,000 from sugar this year, and he will, because, as the output of beet sugar declines, imports of foreign sugar will become necessary, and the customs duty on that will be payable and will be passed on to the consumers of this country. But the Minister is no such fool as to proclaim his intention to collect a sugar tax. It can be done administratively without anyone being a bit the wiser, except the person who has to pay for the sugar.

I am thinking largely of the effect that this Budget is going to have on the average fellow who has a job down the country. That, in my opinion, is one of the most vital aspects from which we must look at it. When I speak of the person who has got a job I am thinking not only of the fellow who is earning a week's wages. I am thinking of that much neglected individual in Ireland who has the temerity to earn his own living, that despised creature who does not want a dole, who does not want a subsidy, who does not want any assistance at all except just the right to carry on—the small shopkeeper, the small farmer and the small tradesmen scattered up and down this country. Take the small shopkeeper in the rural towns of Ireland. The Conditions of Employment Act has entailed increased expenditure for him, and the burden on him in many cases has been substantial. If he gets a travelling lorry or a travelling van he will have to pay an additional 2d. on his gallon of petrol, which is going to represent approximately 10/- per week to him. He has to pay a tariff on all of the things in which he deals, because many people forget that articles produced behind a tariff wall are just as expensive in most cases as the articles which come in across that tariff wall. Not only have the goods in which he deals increased in price but all the equipment which he uses in the carrying on of his business has increased in price. All the overhead charges he has to meet have increased. In addition, he has to pay, over and above the taxes outlined in this Budget, his proportion of the taxes on sugar, taxes on bread, taxes on flour and taxes on almost everything he buys.

Now, it is very hard for those in high places, those who sit in Government offices all day, particularly those who draw Government salaries of from £80 down to £40 a month, as we do, to put themselves in the place of a man who depends for a livelihood on the balance of profit that he extracts from his business at the end of the week and to contemplate the condition of a man who finds himself week after week, coming to the end of the week without any profit at all, who finds that all his expenses have absorbed all his gross profit and that there is nothing left. I think that it is almost impossible to bring that individual's state of mind before this House at all. I believe there is little or no sympathy with him but yet it is upon people who are in that condition that this State depends. I apprehend that the result of this Budget will be to drive a great many of them just beyond the point where they could have carried on. If Deputy Corish imagines that that will not have repercussions on men who work for small wages in the small towns of this country he is mad. It must mean, and it will mean, that when their employers are broken their jobs will be broken, too.

What is the alternative?

The alternative is to stop the extravagant expenditure that is going on in this country. Does Deputy Hickey imagine that the present basis of expenditure can be maintained or is desirable? Does he think it is good? I shall listen with interest to Deputy Hickey if he gets up to tell us that he thinks that, not only it should go on, but whether it can go on. We got the figures yesterday for the dead-weight debt of this country. Does the Deputy realise that that dead-weight debt is being annually aggravated by the decline in population? Our population is going down and the community dead-weight debt is going up, meaning that the actual debt is rising while the numbers of people who will ultimately repay that debt or the service of the debt is going down, this in turn meaning that a smaller and smaller number have to pay a larger and larger sum with the result that the individual burden is growing greater, and that the tendency is for that process to go on. Nobody knows better than the Minister that it cannot go on, that either he or his successor will have to call a halt. The longer it is allowed to go on, the more difficult it will be to call a halt and the more acute the sufferings will be when the halt is called.

I welcome, and I believe every person of income in this country would welcome, very real sacrifices if the sacrifices were to any good purpose. I have got the feeling, and I believe the bulk of our people have got the feeling, that the sacrifices called for in this Budget are for no good purpose. They believe, as in fact all of us in our hearts know, that the defence provisions of the Government compared with those of the rest of the world are microscopic and ineffective, that the millions we are spending on it can have absolutely no effect in determining the ultimate integrity of our country. We ask ourselves, then: what are we suffering for? Have we abolished unemployment? Have we done away with destitution? Can we say in this country that no person knows what it is to fear hunger? I am sorry to say we cannot. I would not mind this burden even if it were of such dimensions that it would require us to move into different kinds of houses and live different kinds of lives, if it really meant that every man in this country really in want of eight hours' work could get it. I would not mind this burden of sacrifice even more if it meant that no family in this country knew what it meant to see children hungry. I am not moved in that by any sloppy, humanitarian sentiment. I am moved to that conclusion simply because I like our system of government and I believe, if it is to survive, unemployment and destitution must be got rid of or some other systems will be substituted for it. I see no move in anything the Government is doing towards that direction. I see a greater number of unemployed. I see the necessity for providing for a greater number of unemployed and I see a larger provision for relief works than I have ever seen before. I see every signal of a deteriorating economic fabric in the country and no attempt at all to repair the situation.

I cannot conclude, Sir, without referring to one of the most dramatic pieces of audacity that even the Minister for Finance has ever been guilty of. He referred yesterday to aids for agriculture.

"Since I have touched on this matter,"

said the Minister,

"perhaps I may say that in my opinion the monetary value of the assistance which the State, directly or by the beneficial effects of legislation, is giving to the farming community this year cannot be placed at less than £10,500,000. The corresponding figure in the year 1931-32 would have been less than £2,500,000."

Well, the Minister reminds me of a young married woman who wraps her first-born infant in the most expensive raiment and who is distressed to discover, when she unwinds the wrappings, that her child is dead. If the Minister has spent £10,500,000 in decorating agriculture, and if he thinks that what he has done has been of benefit to agriculture, I can assure him that the wrappings he puts round it are well calculated to smother the infant.

Under the Pigs and Bacon Acts the Minister takes credit for a contribution of £1,300,000. I wonder does that £300,000 at the end refer to the £300,000 which the bacon curers got away with; or is that supposed to have been bestowed on the pig producers, because the facts are interesting. If the Minister has been conferring benefactions to the tune of £1,300,000 on the producers of the pigs in this country, the net result of it is that since 1931 the export of pigs and pig products in this country has fallen from £4,500,000 to about £2,080,000. Then as to eggs: "Increase in value of egg production as a result of State intervention, £290,000." The facts are that the export of eggs from this country has fallen from £2,300,000 down to £800,000 in the course of the last seven years.

A calculation is then made indicating that benefits have been conferred on the agricultural community by the Agricultural Produce (Cereals) Acts, to the tune of £1,900,000. I apprehend that unless the millers of this country are included in the description of the agricultural community that bounty is incorrectly calculated. I admit quite freely that the millers and the bacon curers have received most astonishing bounties at the hands of the Minister in the last five years. They, I admit freely, have made unprecedented profits and great fortunes. They are now rich men; they have got the swag. But that the Minister should delude himself into the belief that any part of this money ever reached the agricultural community astonishes me. How he can have the effrontery to get up and claim that it did makes me wonder if the Fianna Fáil Party has any gumption at all, or do they reserve criticism of that kind of conduct for the meetings which take place behind the doors of the Party room?

I see in this country a rising dead-weight debt to which reference has been made. I see progress along the road against which this country was warned most expressly by the Banking Commission, which spent three years investigating the economic circumstances of the country. I see an increase of unemployment. I see a lower standard of living for the masses of the people. I see a steady deterioration in the land. I see a steady shrinkage in the national income; and I ask myself: what is going to happen, what will the end of this transaction be? It is very hard exactly to know what the end will be. We have all learned in the last ten years from contemplating countries like Germany and Italy that it is virtually impossible to bankrupt a country. It is not impossible, though it requires the establishment of a disagreeable form of tyranny, to bring our people down to a standard of living which they never dreamt could be imposed upon them. The alternative to that is anarchy. I want to say this quite deliberately. Bankrupting an authoritarian, totalitarian country is practically impossible, because you can put the screws on the people and, by force, compel them to accept a standard of living analogous to that enjoyed by the natives of the South Sea Islands.

Under free institutions, such as we have here, bankruptcy in this country will manifest itself as follows. You deplete the national income to such a point that those who have a very modest standard of comfort become poor, that the poor become destitute, and that the rich skip out of the country. That is what a lot of people forget. You cannot hold the rich because their surplus is mobile and, if you make the going too hot for them, they skip overnight and are gone. If you have an authoritarian, totalitarian government you can hold them. They are doing it in Germany and Italy. You can simply forbid them to go or refuse to permit them to take their property out. We have free institutions, but unless they are free for every section of the community they cannot long remain free for any section. It is well that Deputies should face that. Bankruptcy means that the burden becomes so heavy that the rich skip, those in modest circumstances grow poor, and the poor grow destitute. When a considerable body of your people are destitute the agitator stirs amongst them, and the destitute begin to say to themselves: "Discounting 70 per cent. of this fellow's promises, one thing is certain: we could not be worse than we are." Those who desire civil commotion find recruits amongst those who have been beaten down by economic pressure and you get the beginnings of civil turmoil.

Deputies should ask themselves this question. Suppose in this country you get any substantial measure of civil turmoil, what is the next step; what is the next step in any country, but especially in this? If civil turmoil gets under way, it is a matter of months until we have in this country effective anarchy, just as we unhappily had to experience before. By the mercy of God, we had men then who, by sacrificing their lives in many cases, and by exercising their abilities and exceptional qualities, dragged the country back from the edge of that abyss. Suppose we have that again, arising not from any attempt of an outsider to interfere in our affairs, but arising out of the irreparable harm that has been done to the economic life of the country, what will the next step be? Does not Deputy Hickey know as well as I do that if anarchy continues sufficiently long every one of us who has any regard for the law of God or anything else will ultimately say: "Whoever will restore order, he has got to be supported." At that stage you have one form of tyranny or the other, and ultimately, what a lot of people forget, what Karl Marx forgot, what most of the left-wingers forget, the boys who can make the money, the boys who are cute enough to exploit their neighbour, the fellows who control the money bags, are usually the people who have the ability to get control of the State by hook or by crook. It will not be a dictatorship of the proletariat or a triumph of the plain people. It will be a rigid, savage exploitation in this country, as it has been in every country where free institutions were overthrown in favour of anarchy. That is what I am afraid of.

Personally, I do not give two fiddle-de-dees who is the Government of this country so long as we are properly governed in this country, and so long as the people are given a chance to live. What does disturb and alarm me is the possibility that, by our own folly, we tear down the free institutions that were set up here 17 years ago. That alarms me for two reasons: one, because I would not want to go on living under a tyranny but, two, for another reason. There are many men in this House—most of us—who have had associations with the past movements for Irish sovereignty, and we all of us know the contacts between this country and the Irish people scattered all over the world. Those of us who have been about the world understand the pride with which people of Irish extraction look back to Ireland. They have always felt that it was a disinterested, lofty kind of country that cared for the higher things; that it was incorruptible and that it was fighting for its independence and would go on fighting for its independence until it got it, and they cherished the idea that, when we got our independence, we would be an example to the world of how a country ought to be run. It is that bond of admiration and pride that has made this country great, as it is great—one of the greatest in the world in the spiritual sphere—and everybody knows that. If we reduce this country to a point at which we have tumult and dictatorship arising out of economic inefficiency, this country will become a byword in the mouths of the people of the world and our people will be ashamed to claim this country as their own.

The Deputy seems to take it for granted that these things will occur, but there is no need for them to occur.

That is the very danger. We are on the road to an economic break-up in this country. If that is faced, it can be dealt with. If it is allowed to drift, when it comes upon us nobody here will be able to do anything about it. If it is allowed to drift, no combination of parties in this country will be able to do anything about it. It will be brought to an end by anarchy, and out of anarchy will come some form of tyranny which will make this country a by-word before the world. That is what I want to avoid. If that should happen it will be a betrayal of every man who laid down his life for this country. It will be a betrayal of some men, whom we in this House knew, who laid down their lives for this country, and it will be a betrayal of all those, to whom we look back, who laid down their lives for this country. Civil war we have had. War with England we have had. Our people have understood, whether they approved or disapproved of those events, the purpose that motivated them, and they felt that these events reflected no discredit on the land to which they look back. Anarchy and disruption, resulting from the incompetence of our own Parliament to meet the events that are plain before our eyes, will disgrace our people the world over, and it is up to us to avoid that.

We are not doing it by this kind of legislation, and the Minister for Finance knows that. He himself admits that this brings us on to the verge of disaster and that, in certain events, disaster is upon us. He himself admits, in his own Budget speech, that this Budget is drafted on lines which place us in a position, an economic position, which would mean absolute destruction in the event of war. Is that rational or sane finance? Is that rational or sane government? Is that a responsible attitude for any Government in the world to take, or would it be better to say now: "We have got to contemplate the findings of the Banking Commission Report and realise that the repair of what has happened in the past five years is going to be painful and difficult, but we have got to do it. It may be that we will have to draw back a little now but, if we have to do so, it is for the purpose of making better advance in the hereafter." Sacrifices demanded in the name of such a policy could be cheerfully shouldered in the anticipation of early relief. Sacrifices demanded for no other purpose than to let things drift, and to let things go from bad to worse because nobody wants to face them, are sacrifices that nobody wants to make.

I want to see, as I believe most Deputies here want to see, all the people in this country having a better, fuller life than they are having now. I am profoundly convinced that this Budget, and the line of policy enshrined here, means the ruin of that part of our people who cannot leave Ireland and who will not leave Ireland. I am convinced that it is still not too late to get on the road that would lead, not to luxury, not to affluence for our people, but to modest comfort and to a knowledge, in the words of a continental friend of mine once, that we would be all rich together or all poor together. That is an objective to which, I believe, our people would be glad to advance together. A Budget, however, that indicates a readiness on the part of our Government to stand shivering on the brink in the knowledge that a certain event may launch them into disaster, and without the courage to tell the people the facts and ask the people to take the proper measures to meet that situation, is a Budget that ought never to have been introduced in this House.

I noticed, in connection with the last speaker's remarks on the financial position, constant references to the Banking Commission Report. I cannot help feeling that Deputy Dillon, in the eloquence of his feelings on the subject of the Budget, exaggerated the whole tenor and the whole basis on which the Banking Commission Report was written. To my mind, the Banking Commission Report took 600 pages to be written in, not because there was any immediate danger of bankruptcy or anything approaching bankruptcy, but because, with the peculiar character of our economy, it is possible to eat into our resources silently and quietly over a great number of years without any apparent damage whatsoever to the fabric of the State, and in order to prevent that process of eating into the financial fabric of the State—overspending, disseminating our savings— measures have to be taken which are often politically unpopular and which would be criticised in the sharpest possible manner by both Parties in this House. Those on the Banking Commission who are not by any means, shall we say, conservative—naturally, the people appointed by the Government, obviously, were there to represent the particular interests—nevertheless, signed the majority report and did so because they had the feeling in the back of their minds that, in order to ensure that at the end of the economic war the economy of this country should continue on lines which would preserve its safety, the steps to carry it through must be taken within a reasonable period of the end of the economic war or it would be politically impossible for the members of either Party to carry out these steps because of the ordinary nature of democracy. That is my whole interpretation of that report. It was not a criticism of many aspects of Government policy. It did not suggest that the Government should not spend money on housing; it did not even suggest that the Government should not diversify the economy of the country by industries. It indicated that it would be possible for the country to continue its cereals policy under certain circumstances, but the one essential point of that report, which the Minister clearly hinted at in his speech, was the fact that we could continue for a great number of years doing certain things which were not maintaining the entire capital wealth of the country, without any serious effect. That was the danger, but there was no immediate danger of bankruptcy.

That is my reading of the report and, to my mind, the Minister, when he gave those warnings to us, although I do not wish to interpret his mind, was repeating to the public what he felt in his own mind to be a wise portion of the report, a portion that would scarcely be questioned by any country practising a capitalist economy and believing in the theory and general practice of a balanced Budget and the maintenance of savings. I think that if we consider the future financial position of the country in that light we should be doing far better than by proposing either, on the one hand, excessive inflation and crazy schemes of finance that will lead us far astray or, equally, by exaggerating the financial position as it exists to-day.

We have just been through a serious economic conflict, and I should like to suggest that one of the difficulties which have had to be faced is that if the Deputies could imagine the economic war not having its effect as an economic war, but simply as an unusually serious economic crisis, with no political questions involved and with nothing but vastly diminished exports to England and a lowering of prices. If there had not been the political tension in this country, if the Government had not carried out a policy with a very small majority in the Dáil and with an Opposition which, rightly or wrongly, was savage in its actions and in its criticism, I think a great deal of the talk that has been going on here on all sorts of Estimates and all sorts of matters would never have taken place because we would have regarded the whole of that crisis as the kind of economic crisis that took place in the United States. Many of the cries for help, many of the pleas on both sides for increased social services and increased contributions to this or that section of the population, would not have been made because the people would have realised that they were in the throes of a struggle which they could not avoid, which was inevitable and that, therefore, they would have to face deflation, unemployment with all its seriousness and, at the end of the trade cycle, expect a recovery.

To my mind, therefore, when economic historians write the history of this country they will say that maybe the Opposition were right in their attitude, and maybe they were wrong, but that it was the fact that, with a small majority, we had a serious conflict, in which a political issue was involved and in respect of which it was stated clearly by many people that the conflict was avoidable, that created a condition of financial stress that would not otherwise have existed. I am not making any apology on that ground. I am not saying that the Opposition were necessarily wrong in expressing their antagonism with such vehemence. I am pointing but what I consider to be a plain economic fact. In spite of the economic war and its seriousness, I think it essential, at this stage, to point out that the financial fabric of the country as a whole has been preserved, partly because of the thrifty character of our farmers and the fact that, luckily for themselves, they had very considerable savings, and partly because we are a creditor nation, with a vast amount of savings in the form of external assets.

I need not go into these matters in detail, but I think that, in order to establish a balanced position of argument in the House, the House should recall that, although our deposits in the banks decreased to a certain extent, they did not decrease to a point that would bring a condition of danger to our banking institutions, and although our external assets, to some degree, as is pointed out in the Banking Commission Report, were liquidated, a great part of the liquidation could be accounted for by a special issue of loans and a transfer of foreign capital to home industries, and that net liquidation of external assets, after eliminating these two items, could not be considered as serious for the country. The usual indices of trade, such as bankruptcies, circulation of money in the country and other similar indices, proved that we were able to survive that crisis successfully.

One of the most serious items in the general analysis of our financial position, namely, the adverse trade balance, after reaching the very high figure of £3,600,000 in the last year in which the commission reported has, happily for us, retracted. Although we have no estimate given by the Minister, or by any other economic authority, it can be shown from the recent expansion in our exports and the comparative contraction in our imports that that heavy adverse trade balance is now no longer with us although, equally, we have to remember that part of the invisible export items consist of items which may not continue, such as the Hospitals Sweeps' remittances and the emigrants' remittances which help to balance the figure and, therefore, we can say that we went through the economic crisis and practised the usual methods to avoid having that crisis too serious, in the sense that we inflated to a certain degree, spending large sums on social services, and tried to overcome deflation in ordinary private business with inflation in public expenditure, and that now that conflict is over.

Take again the question of Government policy. The economic war was concluded only in April, 1938, and, as the Minister hinted in his speech, we have quite clearly, in the future, to separate that part of our programme consisting of expenditure on social services, which was designed to overcome the effects of the economic war, from the permanent programme of social services designed to be in the interests of the citizens as a whole. Having regard to the recent bad season in agriculture, having regard to the very recent ending of the economic war and having regard to the world situation, no one can blame the Minister for Finance, or any member of the Government, for not having yet made a final distinction in their own minds between what they might consider normal expenditure on social services and expenditure on social services designed to overcome the effects of a serious economic conflict. I think that could be considered an entirely reasonable statement which nobody could question. I myself being an orthodox economist am only too glad to have heard the Minister utter the warnings he did utter, and only too glad that did give to the House a clear indication that the national debt of the country was increasing rather rapidly and a clear indication that very nearly the limit had been reached in the ordinary taxability of our people, but I see no reason for making any drastic change in view of the circumstances through which we have been passing recently.

May I suggest that we here try to avoid extremes of political comment? They will not help us to bring the country back to normal, nor will they help us to restore the desire for investment of new capital in industrial and agricultural undertakings. The position, as I regard it, is this, that before the present Government took office—I think I am not exaggerating in saying this—there was a very definite understatement on the part of the previous Administration, so far as the amount of money they were prepared to spend on social services and on housing development was concerned. They had gone too far in the direction of the maintenance of the savings of the country and the guarding of every possible factor which would prevent any kind of inflation. They had gone too far, for reasons for which, perhaps, they themselves were not immediately responsible. I am not making political capital out of it. They had to face a civil war and, whether they were right or wrong, it had a certain amount of effect. Then, the present Government, believing that it was necessary to increase the number of social services, acted with the opposite intentions. They increased the amount spent on housing development and other services.

As a result of the economic war we may have gone beyond what would have been a reasonable limit in normal circumstances unless our income was very seriously increased, increased to an extent that we could bear those expenses in full. I submit that that is a reasonable statement of the case, and that in the present Budget we are still paying for the results of the economic war, for the effects of an economic crisis for which we were not responsible. Undoubtedly, before the end of 12 months we shall have to consider the position again in the light of what should be the permanent position in this country's finances, assuming that we can avoid the horrors of a great war.

On examining the position of various countries in the world, with a view to making a decision regarding the future finances of this country, we can divide countries roughly into three groups. In the first group could be placed the Nazi countries, where absolutely rigid control is exercised over the whole economic life of the country, altering arbitrarily the type, variety and the amount of goods consumed by the ordinary people, altering their working hours and wages and continuing a programme of inflation to enormous lengths without, as Deputy Dillon has said, creating a position of bankruptcy. Nobody desires that type of economy in this country, because liberty is extinguished. Now, into the second group would fall such countries as the United States, New Zealand and France who have, for a far longer period than ourselves and to a far greater degree, carried out continuous inflation, continuous increase of their national debt, and who have gone on spending money until the point has been reached in which it can clearly be said that the money spent no longer produced an effect. I should like to make particular mention in connection with New Zealand that that country has only just begun a programme of inflation and already some of the particular promises made have not been fulfilled and the New Zealand Government feels that it is faced with the necessity of having to control its currency and imports in a way in which we hope we shall never have to control them in this country, because it limits the liberty of the individual in the State. Taking the third group, it should include those countries who, in the past 50 years, have more or less carried on on the principle of the balanced Budget, the principle of maintaining savings at all costs, and at certain times ruthlessly cutting State expenditure when they felt it to be necessary. Countries in this group are Sweden, Denmark and Norway.

I myself make the plea which I feel was in the Minister's mind, that it is necessary for this country at all costs to remain in the third classification that I have given, because in the long run the highest level of employment, the least serious economic crisis when economic trade cycles become serious, the greatest measure of happiness are undoubtedly felt in those countries which insist on balancing the Budget and preserving their savings. There is nothing to make me believe it may not serve the interests of this country to examine its finances and take any necessary steps to restore a completely balanced programme. In other words the Minister's warning should be taken seriously. I myself agree with the Government and with the members of my own Party that it would be impossible to take that warning this year. It would take time, it must be done gradually, and it could not be done this year under the present circumstances.

I think myself that one of the things that has been, perhaps, often forgotten during the past years by many countries is the necessity to attract national capital to enterprise—the necessity to attract re-investment of new capital. Studying the history of the United States in the past five years and the hopes that were extended that great progress would be made in employment in the United States and the development of national services, nearly all the economists in the United States are beginning to see that much of the Government's huge expenditure—expenditure far beyond anything known in this country in comparison with the population—in public works has proved hopeless because it discouraged the normal re-investment of capital in industry and in agriculture. There, again, I feel there lay behind the Minister's warning the belief that in this country we must encourage more private capital for re-investment purposes, both in agriculture and in industry. For that purpose we must be careful to avoid a level of taxation which will discourage the investment of capital. The whole principle, as I understand it, of the taxation of the country for the purpose of developing social services, is that one removes the surplus from those who have great wealth and spends it on behalf of the Government in order to give employment to a greater extent than if it were left with the individual to provide that employment. That is the whole theory behind the taxation of the rich in order to provide for the poor. You reach a certain point in taxation where you tax the individual and you remove that portion of his surplus income which he would normally employ for employment purposes—for the purposes that would give the same result as if expended by the individual himself.

The question that we must consider is whether part of our expenditure is not obtained by taxing the comparatively wealthy and spending their surplus in a way which does not result in any increased employment. As a result of the special measures taken during the period of the economic war, I believe we have nearly reached the limit and that, at the present time we cannot go further for taxation purposes. I do suggest to those who believe in capital economy, limited by taxation and local control, it is extremely important that the amount of money obtained for social services should be obtained by bringing a reasonable burden of expenditure to bear on the richer sections of the community. Otherwise, it inevitably reaches the point where that type of service is provided by the State through taxation which would be spent in the ordinary way in giving employment. To use a homely argument, if you tax the man who lives in Rathgar to pay for the man who is unemployed you will be removing that portion of his resources which he would spend on a gardener in addition to that which he would spend on a Mediterranean cruise. The Minister, to my mind, clearly indicated that we must be careful that we have not overreached that point. That is ordinary, commonsense, orthodox economics. It need hardly be stressed here to-day that the world crisis naturally affects the considerations of the Government and the expenses of the Government.

Before closing, I would like to suggest one more thing to the House, that is, that there is one element in this country in connection with production which is even more important than capital, that is, personal effort. In the long run, no matter what the Government do for agriculture, no matter what proposals they make for agricultural development, they can only affect agricultural production by a small degree in respect of any grants they can give for any purpose. It depends, in the long run, on the personal effort of the agricultural population and on the extent to which they are persuaded to make personal efforts in the form of actual labour on the land. Labour on the land is a form of invisible capital, the value of which is incalculable in this country.

Listening to the debates, both on agriculture and on the employment schemes and also the debate to-day, I have been impressed that a point will have to be reached where some via media is found between giving a description of the country which would indicate bankruptcy and equally exaggerating whatever may be the good conditions in the country, because no one can blame the farmer in this country if you discourage his personal effort, which is equivalent to the use of capital, by offering false hopes and giving false promises, offering hopes of relief which will never be granted in full, which might perhaps be granted in part. I am almost arguing against democracy at this moment. The Opposition have a right to feel bitterly because of their view about the economic war. They have a right to feel the position. Yet I fear that the conflict which is going on in this House is going to be one of the things which will inhibit in the future the investment of capital in industry and the personal investment of labour in industry. I am not trying to make political capital. I am not blaming the Opposition. I am simply saying that the kind of talk that has gone on in this House, on both sides, even some of the things I have said, will have to stop because we have got to reach a position of economic stability in the country. I make the appeal to Deputies on both sides that, sooner or later, we will have to reach a via media on these questions.

I can assure you, Sir, that after that touching appeal to both sides of the House made by Deputy Childers, I will try to be as good as I can and forget all my past sins by omission, by excess of speech, and so on.

That is what the Minister said last year.

As Deputy Childers said, we may have at times been vigorous but then, perhaps we have been tried rather highly. He might remember that we cannot look upon the economic war as a visitation from either the laws of economics or from God. We had, mistakenly perhaps, an idea that it was avoidable, that it was not an unavoidable crisis and that it was brought about by the policy of the Government. We did suffer from that blindness, perhaps. He will forgive us. If sometimes in the heat of the moment, thinking that an irreparable damage was being done to our country, we did forget ourselves occasionally and used language that might have shocked a more academic type of mind, we heartily regret it. But we did believe and do still believe that the economic war could have been avoided, that it was not, like the crisis in America, an unavoidable economic crisis. We do agree with the Deputy that it was a severe crisis, and I partially agree with the Deputy that we are paying the price still—and paying it heavily. But, I cannot agree with what would be a reasonable consequence of his speech, a proposition that he might have put before the House as an amendment to the motion we are discussing, namely, that we adjourn consideration of these matters for 12 months. It cannot be done. We have to face the situation.

We might make capital out of past utterances of the Minister for Finance. I think he knows that. I am not going to do it. I am going to try to face the situation and ask the Government to face the situation that confronts us at the present moment. I gathered yesterday that there was one Deputy in the House with sufficient insight to applaud the Budget statement of the Minister. I appreciate that because there were some good points in it. It was the first real practical step taken by the present Government to make a beginning of bringing some of the facts before the country and for that I think the country ought to be thankful, even if it costs £1,500,000 extra in immediate taxation. Something is gained. And I thought when Deputy Childers was speaking that he was going to greet the statement of the Minister for Finance in very much the same way—as evidence that, at last, the repentance of the Government was going to begin. I am not sure that that is not what his speech meant and I am not sure that the Minister for Finance would not agree that that is what his speech meant. If so, there is an element of hope, namely, that the Government is beginning to open its eyes and, furthermore, we have the further consolation that, in future, the Minister for Finance will be carefully watched by a member of his own Party who will see he does not stray too far from the orthodox path. I wonder whether the Minister would think this speech we have listened to was praise of the policy of the Government or condemnation of the policy of the Government. I have heard many of the things that Deputy Childers has put so clearly, so eloquently, so nicely before us, very often, in the last seven years, in the last five years, in the last three years, from the benches on this side of the House.

I spoke of limitation, not condemnation.

I beg your pardon?

Limitation, not condemnation.

You did not condemn the Government?

I said limited.

Oh—I am afraid you will have to settle these matters with the Minister for Finance in private consultation when you are keeping him on the strict and narrow path of financial rectitude. We have heard these arguments before and many of them are perfectly sound. If it were true that the Government was at last wakening up to the soundness of these arguments, there would not be the same reason that there was yesterday for the description that I heard of the Budget—a gloomy Budget and a gloomier statement—and we do not often hear gloomy Budget statements from the Minister for Finance. Let us hope, as I say, that it is the beginning of realisation on the part of the Government, and there are indications, even in the Budget speech itself that a change of heart has taken place in the last couple of months. Let us hope that it is the beginning of the dawning on the Government of the situation that the country will have to face in a normal year. Year after year we have pointed out the particular road which the Government was travelling. Deputy Childers pointed it out just now in slightly different language. We, possibly more strenuously, pointed out where that particular road was leading. The Government chose deliberately to shut its eyes. I hope, and sincerely hope, that, having opened them, it is going to keep them open and realise that the present policy, the policy that has been in operation for a number of years, cannot continue to develop, that a check must be put to it. As I say, there is evidence in the Budget statement itself of an effort— a small effort, it is true—and, strange to say, coming down on only a particular class—to reconsider their policy. We had the extraordinary spectacle of a Government that, a couple of months ago, presented this House with Estimates coming in and, when asked to face the cost of these Estimates, recasting some of them. Now, is that the function of a Government? Surely the time to test the Estimates, to see whether economies can be effected, to see whether there was extravagance or not, and to see what the financial situation was, was when the Estimates were being framed and passed by the Minister for Finance.

Does the Minister for Finance seriously think that any Government can divest itself of its responsibility: that it can throw one of its major responsibilities from itself on to the House? Is that Parliamentary government— substituting the House for the Government? The Government has the responsibility for the money that is voted in this House. No other body can propose any expenditure of money except the Government. It is the very thing that has brought on Parliamentary democracy a great deal of discredit, as Deputy Childers and possibly some other members of his Party know: it was one of the principal criticisms that, on the Continent, is made of democracy, that there is no responsibility anywhere, and that the Government, instead of bearing the responsibility, tries to shift it on to somebody else, to the House or to the people. That is not democracy. It is not Parliamentary democracy anyhow, and that is what we have in this Budget statement—in a certain part of the Budget statement. The responsibility is with the Government, and as long as the Government is in office it must bear that responsibility and cannot shift it on to this House.

I wish it would face the responsibility because the situation is serious, as the Minister himself knows. He had a certain task when he began to his Budget statement. There were two sums that could not be got to agree. There was a difference of £4,500,000 between them. How was he going to get over that? There was one way, so to speak, of finding that £4,500,000 if I may make a bull, and the Minister walked along that way for two-thirds of its length anyhow, that is, not to find money in the normal way by taxation but by the expedient of borrowing. For a number of the cases that he put forward there is a legitimate excuse enough for borrowing. I think that will be conceded. There were certain expenses that could be quite fairly described as capital expenses, and that might be quite fairly distributed over the years to come, but I think the Minister, if he will examine his own statement, will admit this: that there are a number of other things that he has put more blatantly than ever before on the borrowing side of the account merely to balance the Budget. Looking at that statement of the Minister, what is the reason that he gives, time after time, for borrowing £100,000, £70,000 and so on, all totting up to a considerable sum? Is it that they are capital expenditure? No. It is because "this is an abnormal year." I suggest that is giving the whole case away. It is really a confession on the part of the Minister that in this abnormal year—because it is an abnormal year—he is borrowing for things he otherwise would not borrow for.

In other words, is not this the way that he approached the Budget? "I have to find £4,500,000. I quite know as an orthodox financier"—would not that be the phrase?—"that I ought to find so much from taxation. How am I to find it? I will put a 1/- on income-tax. I know that a number of orthodox financiers—like Deputy Childers and the Opposition members—will object to that on the grounds that I have heard so often in the past, namely, that you are cutting the fund that gives employment. We have heard it often." We heard it here this afternoon. "That is a great objection, but politically we will have to get over it. It will immediately hit only a few." It will have the effect, so clearly pointed out by Deputy Childers this afternoon, of ultimately killing employment, of undermining enterprise, and, possibly, of helping to undermine the system that, according to Deputy Childers, is the best system for ultimately producing the greatest form and the best form of employment. "It may have that effect ultimately, but immediately we can say it only hits a few and the great bulk of the people will believe that. How much do the people expect? They are expecting 6d. Well, if they are to get a shock they had better get a good one"; and 1/- goes on.

The Minister and his officials show by their smiles that that is precisely the way in which it was arrived at. The 1/- on the income-tax only produces a certain sum of money, not nearly enough to meet the Minister's requirements. He argues: "It will be a very unpopular thing if I have to tax such things as tobacco, tea, petrol and so on. I had better not go too far there."

The Deputy may be giving away some of his own Cabinet secrets now.

I am telling what the Minister did. It is proved by the particular statement we had from him.

We did not put on new taxes, but we took off taxes.

Why rehearse what you did in 1931?

The Minister finds the shilling in the income-tax will not produce enough and so he says "We can try our arm at putting on a few pence this year on petrol and pretend that it only hits the rich motorist, and what does that matter? A tax on tobacco would be a little more serious, but we can safely attempt it." There still remains a big sum to be met. It is then that we come to the various expedients which the Minister has adopted to make up the balance—all perfectly unsound from the orthodox point of view which Deputy Childers. I should say, would be the first to acknowledge, and all resorted to merely on the plea that it is an abnormal year. As a matter of fact, this is the first normal year, from the financial and the economic point of view, that we have had since this Government came into office, and this is what the Minister for Finance calls an abnormal year. We are told there is a crisis in Europe. I think Deputy Childers repeated that. We know that, strange to say. But it has not been proved to us that that crisis has yet affected the economics of this country.

Not by a sixpence.

One instance was revealed. It is strange that only one was given by the Minister—the return from the Sweeps. Is that due to the world crisis? Is there any evidence that it is?

The Deputy is wrong there.

The figures of the retail trade for the month of September show that to be so.

That they were due to the world crisis? If the Deputy were down the country he would know the opposite. I can tell him what the figures of the retail trade in country towns are for the last six months. They are not in the slightest due to the world crisis. If the Deputy were to go down to his own constituency, as I have gone to mine, and ask the traders——

So did I. Did they say they were due to the world crisis?

I say they were affected by the world crisis.

But the people down the country did not say it. They know too well what the figures are due to—and why employment has been cut down and why there is no money in the country, and they know that it is on account of our own domestic economic crisis. What has been the economic result of the world crisis as it affects us? An expenditure the like of which you have not had in England for years: the expenditure and the circulation of money in our principal foreign market, and that is supposed to tell against us! Surely that excuse is not worth repetition, even by the Minister for Finance in this House? The real crisis from our point of view will come in either of two circumstances. It will come if there is a world war, and I do not think the Minister for Finance has over-painted the results of the coming of such a war, whether we are neutral or not. I think he is correct there. That is one case in which the crisis would come on us. The other is if there is considerable agreement on disarmament, and you had in our principal market a sudden cessation of the circulation of a large amount of money. We would then feel the result. Surely the Minister for Finance really believes that this is the most normal year that he will likely have for many years to come, whether there is war or not. Is not that the really serious situation we have to face? I believe the Minister knows, and that some of the members of the Government know that. For that reason I am not quite as pessimistic about the 1/- in the £1 in income-tax as the ordinary person. I believe that there is some dawning on their minds of the serious situation that will confront us whether there is war next week or whether peace will be firmly established. This is not an abnormal year in the sense that the Minister wanted to convey, something that would provide an excuse for financial juggling.

There is money being found for defence. We have never yet got any assurance, and I think I can say it without risk of contradiction, that could satisfy us that as a result of spending that money there will be any really good results as far as this country is concerned. If the money were really necessary or if I thought it would substantially help the situation that suddenly might arise, namely, that there was a European war and that it would help us to emerge from the war at least with the liberties that we have at present I certainly should not say a word against it. But I have waited in vain from the beginning for a convincing statement from the Minister for Defence to show that anything of the kind is likely to occur. Suppose there is a war in Europe next week or in a month's time and we remain neutral, does anyone think that this money here mentioned will help us to keep our neutrality? Would it help us to keep out of a war? If there is an alignment of two sets of powers our neutrality may be violated by one side or the other. Suppose our neutrality is violated by the Germans, what do we propose to do? If they use our harbours as nesting-places for their submarines, if they should be unwise enough to drop bombs in Dublin, does anybody suppose that this country would send an expeditionary army out of the country? If our neutrality is violated by that side, what use is our additional army to us except in the 1,000 to one chance of an invasion by a small army and that chance you have no right to put money on? Would any responsible Minister for Defence propose to send an expeditionary force out to fight, and so prevent the violation of our neutrality by that side? Does anybody believe that any Government, even this Government, could propose to conscript the youth of this country and to send out an expeditionary army? Then what is the expenditure for? Suppose the British came to use the anchorage of our harbours and suppose their existence was at stake and they put some boats into our anchorages, are we to fight against them? Is that proposed? What is the money for? I have postponed putting this question as long as possible. I do not want an answer now, but I do not see the justification of the expenditure of the money on increased man-power. It is pure waste and the only thing proved is that the Government want to say they are doing something. The only way they can prove to the country that they are doing something is the way that they have been treading for many years past, spending money.

This expenditure of money is, according to Deputy Childers, not due to the crisis but to the economic war. That is an over-statement of the position. It is not by any means solely the economic war that has led to piling on the expenditure, but it is the deliberate policy of the Government. Remember that in every sphere it is being piled up. We see the kind of game played with the finances of the country between the Minister for Finance and the local authorities as if the people got out of paying taxes because they are called rates. Is it not a lot of the financial juggling that has taken place for a number of years—merely passing the burden from the central authority to the local authorities, and an effort on the part of the local authorities to pass it back to the central authorities? Surely the taxpayer pays in the long run whether it is called rates or called taxes. The same happens when you come to concealed taxes. They are very difficult to estimate, but it comes to the same thing. If we determine to start the sugar beet industry and collect a certain amount of taxes from the people who consume sugar and give it to the beet factories or you adopt the more deceptive expedient of saying to the beet people "you can charge so much for sugar" as will bring in the same amount as if we gave a subsidy, what is the difference? Is there not a real tax on the people in both cases? It may be said that the people do not feel the tax because you call it another name. I admit that in the beginning people might imagine that they escape taxation in that way, but in the long run taxation by any other name will press quite as hardly —and will be less controlled. That is another disadvantage of that particular system. They may try for a short time to throw a veil over it, but that will not save the pocket of the taxpayer or the financial stability of the country. Is not that clearly indicated in the case of sugar by the Minister's statement? What was the revelation? There is only a small excise taxation on sugar, yet sugar is quite as dear, and up to a short time ago was dearer here than in Great Britain and Northern Ireland. That was the Minister's statement. The people are really paying the tax quite as fully and truly as if it was collected under the old system and given to the factories. There was an extraordinary phrase—I do not know whether it was hope or fear—with regard to sugar taxes expressed by the Minister. I gathered that the hope of the future was that the sugar factories might collapse and that then the Minister for Finance would be in a much better situation to balance his Budget. That was practically the hope that peeped through, so to speak, in connection with sugar taxes when he referred to the unlooked-for windfall this year from these particular taxes. What does that mean? Either that our factories were not producing up to what was expected or an effort to store sugar for a future crisis. It was probably a combination of both.

I understand that the Minister for Finance is anxious to raise taxation and balance by such taxation the naïve expedients he uses. At least, the intention may be good if the method be weak. He indicates the possibility that if our sugar beet factories break down that is a source of revenue he can count on anyhow for the coming year. It reminds me of the old system we had that Deputy Childers probably may not remember but that possibly the Minister would remember. In the old days intermediate education was financed from the proceeds of the liquor duties so that as a very brilliant friend of mine said "a man had to get drunk on Saturday night so that his son might be educated for the coming week." The only hope the Minister for Finance has of balancing the Budget is that our big sugar factories would collapse. That is truly a strange hope. I do not know whether it is shared by other members of the Government or not. You could not tell. But if Deputy Childers promises to cast his watchful expert economic eye over the sinuosities of the Government we might hope for better times in these things. Has the problem of unemployment been attacked? Can anybody tell us what the position is as regards employment and unemployment? There are lists of figures—statistics so-called— published by the different Departments but the only thing we can do with these figures, to judge from repeated statements by the Ministers and Parliamentary Secretaries responsible, is to draw no conclusion from them. They, themselves, have not told us what the proper conclusion is. All they tell us is that any conclusion we draw from them is not the proper one. We get one set of figures from the Minister for Industry and Commerce and another set from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance. He calculated that, to get unemployed people into permanent employment, would cost from £10,000,000 to £12,500,000. That would account for about 250,000 unemployed. That conclusion could be drawn from the figure given by the Parliamentary Secretary but the Minister for Industry and Commerce would repudiate that figure.

Leaving figures aside altogether, have we not before us a clear demonstration of the unsound economic policy of the Government and the way it is affecting employment in the flight of the people from the country? When we pointed out in previous Budget debates—Deputy Childers was not here at the time—that emigration was going on, we were told that we were drawing on our imaginations. It is now admitted that emigration is taking place and to an alarming extent. Why cannot these things be seen in time? When the economic war was on, I appealed to members of the Fianna Fáil Party, in the interests of the country, to open the eyes of the Government to what the country was suffering. I appeal to them to do the same now. Coming from different parts of the country, they must know what is happening. They must know what the country towns and the countryside are going through.

I wonder what farmers will say when they read in the Budget about that figure of £10,500,000 for their benefit. Could there be any more severe condemnation of the agricultural policy of the Government than is represented by the fact that according to the Minister for Finance £10,500,000 has to be given by the Government to keep the industry in the state in which it is at present? Nothing the Opposition said over a number of years could be one-tenth as severe as that condemnation. If the result of coming to the assistance of our premier industry with this alleged help of £10,500,000 is to put that industry where it is at present, could we have any stronger condemnation of the whole conduct of the Government for the past seven years? It is not I who am speaking; it is the figures of the Minister for Finance. Apart from what is past, I put it to the Minister and the Government that they should consider this very serious question because, despite what Deputy Childers says, it is not merely an occurrence of this year. I can see it going on year after year. Is it sound economic policy to compel, by Government action, our industries to be so run that you have to subsidise most of them and that you have—most extraordinary thing of all—to subsidise the principal industry itself? Is that sound, orthodox economics? What is to support all that strain in the long run?

You may subsidise certain industries if you have other industries more than self-supporting but if every industry and, particularly, the premier and principal industry has to be subsidised, is there any hope of sound economics? I advise Deputy Childers as the unofficial financial director of the Government to pay attention to that matter because it is a serious matter. Surely, it is worth consideration whether we can continue to go on if you subsidise this industry and that industry, thereby placing so many burdens on the principal industry that the only means of keeping it barely alive—not to speak of making it prosperous—is heavily to subsidise that industry too. Can any more dangerous policy be imagined than that? It may be said that it was necessary to do that during the economic crisis, but that is over. Is that policy to be continued? Crushing agriculture by heavy burdens and then trying to make good the damage by insufficient doles?

As a result of the cessation of the economic war, you have an opportunity of facing the problem and I want the Government to face it afresh. If every industry has to be subsidised, where is the money for the subsidies to come from? Deputy Childers said, as regards this matter, what we have often said from these benches. We urged—in immoderate language sometimes, I admit, in language that would pain his gentle soul—that this country was able to go through the economic war on account of the savings of the past. Is not that what Deputy Childers has said to-day and is not what he said true? We were tired repeating that from these benches but we were not listened to. The country was squandering its capital as a result of a false policy imposed by the Government. I hope the Deputy's influence with the Government is greater than ours.

The Deputy exaggerates.

The Deputy who has just gone out thinks so at any rate. That is the problem for which I want special consideration. I have been down the country and I wish, heartily wish, there were a change to report. I have seen the decline of the towns. The decline is more noticeable there but the cause is further back; it is in the countryside. It is time for the Government to leave aside past theories to which they may or may not be committed. Many things to which they seemed to be committed are now things of the past. Is it not time that they considered this problem in all seriousness? If it would have that effect, I should be sorry that I was not here yesterday to join with the one applauder of the Budget. To have brought a matter of that kind before the Government and the people is perhaps more than we have got out of many a previous statement of the Minister.

Listening to the debate, one is inclined to think that this Budget must have been an extraordinarily good Budget. Deputy O'Sullivan has spent a considerable space of time talking around and about it, but not for one moment did he lay his hand on any serious defect in the Minister's statement. He did not say that the further increase of debt could have been avoided by any method. He did not say any of the new taxes proposed were particularly wrong. He did not say that the amount for which the Minister for Finance had to budget was unnecessary, or that it could have been reduced. He said none of the things that one would expect in a speech coming from a Deputy of the importance of Deputy O'Sullivan, one of his great reputation as an economist and one of his great experience as a member, for a number of years, of a Government. One would expect that if there were serious defects in the Budget he would be able to show them clearly and explicitly; that we would not have all this dancing around the subject with such phrases as "the Government is beginning to open its eyes,""there has been a change of heart,""there are evidences that the Government is going to reconsider its policy," and not for a moment an indication of the facts that Deputy O'Sullivan had in mind when he was speaking like that.

There was just one thing on which the Deputy particularised, the only particular thing he did refer to—the subject of defence. He referred to a subject when he mentioned defence on which very few of us can speak with any authority. The question as to the best method of defending this country is one on which the average member of a Party has to be a yes-man; he has to take the opinion of his leaders; he is not in a position to say whether the method of air defence is the wiser one, or the method of defence by fortifying the ports a better method. He cannot give a judgment on that. Certainly I would not attempt to give a judgment on it, and I candidly confess that I have to be a yes-man on that subject. Yet that was the only particular matter that Deputy O'Sullivan drew our attention to in the whole of his speech.

He evidently considers this is a bad Budget. At least he did not praise it, but he did not give me, at all events, any indication as to defects in the Budget and I candidly think it was his duty to do so. If an Opposition has any justification at all the justification arises merely on an important question like this. When the question of how the country should be run financially, the question of financial policy, the question of how much should be spent on the various services and whether the proposed method of raising that money was the most advisable one arises—I look to those who have already had experience of government to suggest better methods of dealing with these problems than the Government is proposing. I am sure this Government would be gratified if the Opposition did point out alternative methods. I usually look to the members of the Opposition to point out things of that sort, and I must say that to-day I looked to them in vain.

I heard two speeches. As regards the first speech, I think I would almost lose my patience if I were to refer to it at any length. There were times when I expected that Deputy Cosgrave would rise in his place and repudiate that speech, especially in view of the fact that the Banking Commission has indicated that speeches of that type tend to do very definite harm in the country; that they had impeded the Dublin Corporation in its efforts to raise money for housing purposes; that they had affected its credit. Some time ago I quoted a statement here from Mr. Gerald Sherlock when he was questioned by the Banking Commission as to why the credit of Dublin was not as good as that of Belfast, and his reply was to the effect that how could it be otherwise when there were members of the Dáil talking of approaching bankruptcy in the country.

Is that mentioned in the Report?

It is in the minutes of evidence.

But it is not in the Report?

I do not quite see the point of that question.

It is dealt with in the recommendations contained in the Report?

The recommendations are founded on the evidence. The Deputy will not put me off the point. I think it is simply disgraceful that Deputy Dillon, in this House, should give the impression to the North of Ireland and to the South and to the people in other countries who are interested in Ireland, that this country was on the very verge of bankruptcy, and not merely bankruptcy, but anarchy and all the things that are associated with anarchy. He told us that these things are immediately ahead. Deputy O'Sullivan did not for a moment point to one thing wrong in this financial statement. He did not say that such a thing should not be there, or that another thing should have been there, or anything of that kind. Only once did he leave the plane of generalities. Deputy Dillon's statement contained that shocking, injurious and utterly unjustifiable threat that not merely were we going to have bankruptcy, but that anarchy was immediately before us. I told Deputy Dillon privately, two or three days ago, about the effect that I considered his speeches were having.

The beet industry was referred to a while ago by Deputy O'Sullivan, and he said that the Minister for Finance almost took pride in the fact that last year there had to be a considerable amount of sugar imported. I wonder if, for that reason, the Deputies on the Opposition side will now go out and urge the growing of beet? It is the case, to my knowledge, that all this talk that beet growing is a cod, that it is unsuitable for this country, has had a big effect in preventing people growing beet. It is a most futile and a very wrong statement, as every Deputy knows, that beet is unsuitable in this country. Surely, there was never a crop more suitable? So far as the actual production of the crop with a good yield and a good sugar content is concerned —from that point of view there was never a more suitable crop for this country. But you have had those statements made here and I have heard them repeated in the country.

I mentioned to Deputy Dillon this very curious fact, that six or seven years ago I and other Deputies were bombarded with letters from people in the country saying: "We are allowed to grow only two acres. Can you use your influence with the sugar company to get us another acre or an acre and a half, because we find it a very profitable crop?" These letters no longer come, and Deputy Dillon says it is because people have found that beet is too difficult and does not pay them. Far from that being the case, it is the fact that beet is a paying crop, but the propaganda very largely coming from this House is having a very bad effect. If any Deputy wishes to go to a beet-growing area and investigate the position of two farmers, one growing beet and the other not growing it, he will find that the person not growing the beet is largely influenced by his political affiliations. I got confirmation of that time and again, that he is influenced by his political associations as to whether he will or will not grow it.

I think all these speeches threatening bankruptcy are injurious to the country. These speeches tend to give the impression that this Government is a Government misusing the country's resources, misusing its finances, and so on. I think such statements are particularly dangerous at the moment. If there is one thing the country needs now it is confidence. If there is one thing lacking it is the confidence of the people in their own future.

That is right. Give them propaganda for that.

Are they likely to get confidence from the type of speech we heard to-day? I do not mind if this Budget proves a very bad Budget, but it first has to be proved a bad Budget. If the present Minister for Finance has made bad use of his opportunities, if he is borrowing more than he need borrow, if he is collecting more than he need collect, if he is spending more than he need spend— it would be a very good thing for everybody if that be pointed out in time. I think that sort of general cry we have been hearing from the Opposition that the Minister for Finance is bringing the country into bankruptcy is not getting us very far. If he is spending too much let us be told in what direction the too much prevails. We did not hear that of any particular Estimate. We did not hear that the Estimate for Agriculture was too much; we did not hear that the Fishery Vote was too much or that the Old Age Pensions or the Unemployment Assistance Votes were too much. We heard none of that when each of these particular Estimates was before the House. Why then come along with a general statement after that discussion is over and tell us: "This is shocking; this is landing the country on the rocks; this is bringing the country to disaster"? I do not think that that sort of thing carries us very far. I know it is correct in accordance with the orthodox Parliamentary procedure to say these things. Perhaps it is the correct thing for the Opposition to oppose but, in view of the evidence I have just quoted from the Banking Commission Report, I am inclined to say that such speeches made here can do very much damage to the credit of the country. Such speeches are having a discouraging effect on the farmers and other producers of the country. They are leading them to believe that the things that are being put before them as national policy are things that should not be supported. I think at least we should consider whether it is absolutely essential that we should follow the orthodox lines of Parliamentary procedure. I do not mind admitting that when there was another Opposition here it made many mistakes of that kind.

Not at all! They could not do it.

Anyway there was this excuse that the Party then in opposition had not experience of government. The Party that is now in opposition have had that experience and they should realise what these things mean. They should realise that a great deal more than a Party that had not been in office.

Fresh fish.

Deputy O'Sullivan talks of the decay of the country towns. I do not remember a period when we did not hear about the decay of the country towns. I know a country town in which there is not one unemployed man. The shopkeepers there tell me, however, that, figuratively speaking, there is not 5/- worth of business in the town. That is the town or village of Blessington. There is no man unemployed within five or six miles of that town, but the average shopkeeper there will tell you that the money is being spent in Dublin. There are other towns in a similar position. I could mention a relatively big town that blames its decay upon a very progressive and prosperous cooperative society within a few miles of the town. When a town decays it is not always the fault of Government policy. Government policy has a very indirect effect and even the existence of a Fianna Fáil Government for seven years is not the whole cause.

Oh, Lord, yes!

It would be rather more than one could believe that such towns should in so quick a time, from being prosperous, thriving centres, have become centres of decay. If Deputy O'Sullivan wants to put that proposition before us he is asking too much of our credulity. Altogether it looks as if this Budget is one of the most satisfactory Budgets that could be produced in the circumstances. At all events, after two very long speeches from the Opposition, we have had no criticism that would point to any particular fault in this Budget. There is no suggestion that the Minister could have found these taxes in any better way than he is finding them. I think the Minister must be congratulated on producing a Budget that is so apparently immune from criticism as this Budget appears to be.

Mr. Morrissey

I have listened to Deputy Moore's speech, and the only thing that puzzles me is why he did not join Deputy Tom Kelly yesterday in applauding the Minister's statement.

I was not here.

The Deputy took very good care he was not.

Mr. Morrissey

The Deputy said that his grievance against the Opposition was that they had not taken exception to any particular set of figures in the Budget. He said the Opposition did not point to any particular service which could be reduced. He wants us to approach this Budget, and the figures in it, as if there were no background to it; as if the Budget had no relation to Government policy. Deputy Moore, like most of his colleagues, was boasting that the increases in this and in the previous Budgets introduced by the present Government were due to the increased social services. What Deputy O'Sullivan said in speaking in relation to the £10,500,000 for agriculture might be equally said with regard to the other sums that are being provided for social services. Far from reflecting any credit on the Government, I think the Government should be ashamed that after eight years in office the conditions in the country are so bad, particularly in so far as unemployment is concerned, that such a huge sum of money has to be provided to provide a mere existence for the unemployed. Of course, these figures are in the Budget because the Government's policy has failed to provide for these people the employment to which they are entitled.

Let me refer Deputy Moore to a few figures in this Budget, figures never before met with in the Budget. These are figures of so-called economies and they are made exclusively at the expense of the unemployed. There are two sums here:—From Public Works and Buildings, £100,000; from Employment Schemes, £100,000, and there is a third figure—from the Road Fund, £150,000. These are the economies or deductions made, and these are the only so-called economies that are attempted in this Budget. Would Deputy Moore or any other Deputy try to justify that in the light of our unemployment situation? The Minister did not do so, and I do not believe that any member of the Front Bench will attempt to say that these deductions from the amounts which were estimated would be required for employment are justified by any belief that the numbers that are unemployed will, in the next 12 months, be reduced. I doubt if any Deputy in the House will disagree when I say that if this Budget has or is to have any effect upon the unemployment situation in the country, that effect will be a bad one. I do not think that anybody will contend that the impositions which the Minister has found necessary to impose, in order to secure the amount of money he requires, will give increased employment. I think, on the contrary, most people will agree that these impositions are almost certain to lead to more unemployment. I must confess that it seems to me that the Government have made up their mind that it is beyond their powers to make any effort which is going to reduce in any way whatever the numbers of those who are unemployed in this country. We are reducing the amounts which, a few months ago, we thought it would be necessary to provide, and we are reducing them, not in the face of a decreasing number of unemployed, but of an increasing number. I wonder whether the Minister is going to make that particular saving, because if work is not provided for those men on relief schemes or other works undertaken by the Public Works Department unemployment assistance will have to be provided for them.

The Minister introduced a petrol tax, and in his Budget statement he tried to convey that it was a luxury tax, and would hit only those who were using motor cars for pleasure. I suggest that it is going to hit, in a particularly hard way, a substantial number of people in this country who earn a fairly precarious living as owners of hackney motor cars and taxicabs, as well as the ordinary individual who has a lorry which he has made sacrifices to purchase, and upon which he depends absolutely for his livelihood and the livelihood of his family. There are very large numbers of those people. I want to suggest, further, to the Minister and to the House that this is a tax which will be passed on to the consumer in some way by the owners of commercial vehicles. We know that it will mean a very substantial increase to firms which convey their goods on lorries of their own or on hired lorries. I think it may be taken that the average increase on lorries and vans will be 10/- per week, because it must be remembered that the ordinary 30 cwts. or 2½ tons lorry does about ten miles to the gallon of petrol. It must be remembered also that this tax puts us in the position that No. 1 petrol here is going to cost 3d. per gallon more than it costs on the other side, even after the recent imposition by the British Government. When you couple with that the fact that commercial lorries in this country have to bear a road tax which is approximately 50 per cent. higher than that on similar lorries on the other side, you get some appreciation of the difference, and you arrive at one of the many reasons why we have a much higher cost of living here than there is on the other side.

I do not want to go into any further detail in this matter. It has been dealt with very exhaustively by Deputy Dillon and Deputy Professor O'Sullivan. I am speaking on this mainly because I want to protest, in the existing state of unemployment in this country, against the fact that the Minister makes the only saving he is attempting to make at the expense of the very poorest section of the community—those who are without work or wages. I think that the Minister must indeed have been reduced to great extremes when he found it necessary to get £350,000 in this way. I do not believe the Minister is going to save that much, because, as I have said, if those men are not provided with work on relief schemes they have got to be kept alive in some way. If they are not given work on employment schemes, they will have to be paid unemployment assistance. I am afraid that this Budget, far from reducing in any way the number of our unemployed, will increase it very substantially.

Listening to Deputy Moore's speech, I rather guessed that he had not been present when the Minister was introducing the Budget last evening, and I further deduced the fact that he could not have read the Minister's statement, because if he had either listened to the Minister or read the statement he would not have delivered that little lecture which we have just heard, aimed at people who view the present situation as being extremely grave. I know of nothing which was said either by Deputy Dillon or by Deputy John Marcus O'Sullivan which was nearly as calculated to make people feel nervous and anxious with regard to the future as the last two pages of the Minister's statement. One of the things for which I appreciate that Budget statement, and one of the things I intended to mention if Deputy Moore had never referred to such warnings, is that it is particularly clear, particularly frank, and I would say too particularly courageous in so far as it faces up to facts and calls a spade a spade. But the general picture, as presented to us by the Minister, is not such as to make any of us elated. It is not calculated to make any of us cheerful. We are told that the position is serious, as it is, that trade has been interfered with by world tension and other causes, and that, if anything like a war situation arises, the position will be so drastic that the pools of revenue will dry up rapidly; that it will be a case of a scramble to tax what you can where you can, that the wealthy will be poor and the poor will be paupers.

If we were to pretend that that situation did not exist, if we were to try political Couéism at a time when hard thinking is required, I believe we would not be acting in the national interests. I look at the Budget this year as the most gloomy document which ever was read out in this Assembly, and the Minister did not try to make it otherwise. We had no quips this year. We had a hard, cold statement of facts and figures, and we had a winding up statement to the effect that the position is extremely serious, and might be a lot worse in a certain event. When I read this statement, particularly the end of it, I was reminded of the Minister's own statement in reply to the Budget of 1930. I will not read the whole lot, but I would remind the Minister of his "ragman's bag" Budget speech, when he told the then Minister that the Budget was something like a ragman's bag, and would bring gloom into every homestead in the country. The idea of the then Minister being out to abstract from the povertystricken Irish people something like £24,000,000 a year! He painted a picture of what would be the result of that kind of national blood-sucking if it were allowed to continue. But he cheered up himself and the overtaxed Irish people through the crisis by pointing out that there was an election coming; that that was their only hope; that there could be a change of Government and that when that change of Government came about, there would be no more of this national blood-sucking because the boys with the plan would be taking over office in the country and the plan would bring joy to every home and to every Irish heart. It was something more than a plan because the Minister when he was over here could never be subjected to the accusations that were hurled at Deputy O'Sullivan and Deputy Dillon. He could never be accused of not being specific, of not making concrete proposals. He would not be satisfied with merely saying: "We are going to reduce taxation." He had it added up like a schoolmaster at the blackboard and he showed how exactly it was going to be done and where and when. We had the Army, of course, as the principal field of economy. Next to that, we had the Civic Guard and after that we had the Civil Service. Between the three, there were economies amounting to practically £2,000,000 and that was on an estimated expenditure of £21,000,000. Without interfering with the efficiency of the machine or without embarrassing the Government instruments, we would be able to cut £2,000,000 off that, if we had a Government that would mete out justice and if we had not a police force that was dealing with a population driven mad by the goadings of the Government.

The election came, and the Minister was right in his prognosis. The result of the election changed the Government and the change of Government brought a change in taxation. Taxation was changed by going up by £6,000,000 instead of down by £2,000,000. Expenditure on the Army, which was not wanted, we were told, went up £400,000 immediately. Now, I am not talking about this year. This year I am prepared to accept as abnormal. I am talking about the years 1933, 1934, 1935, 1936, 1937 and 1938. Expenditure on the Civic Guard went up a few hundred thousand, on the Minister's own Department, £50,000; on the Revenue Commissioners' about £70,000, and on other Ministers' offices from £10,000 to £20,000. Even the cost of stationery went up about £50,000.

The population went down, while taxation went up. The cost of every sub-department, leaving social services entirely out of it, went up from 15 to 20 per cent. Whenever we hear about increasing taxation, we are told about social services, social services—the old political cat that is dragged out every time to excuse every new imposition in the way of taxation. We never hear of the fact that out of 70 Votes, 15 perhaps of which would apply to social services, 55 have gone up as well as the 15 dealing with social services, I do not know that in the whole 70 there is any single avenue of expenditure in which there has been a decrease between 1930 and the present moment. In fact I do not know one in which expenditure has not gone up.

Taking the Departments that have nothing to do with social services, we find that expenditure in the Taoiseach's office has increased from £11,000 to £14,000; in the office of the Comptroller and Auditor-General from £16,000 to £19,000; in the Minister's own office from £57,000 to £75,000; in the office of the Revenue Commissioners from £644,000 to £885,000; in the Civil Service Commission from £12,000 to £25,000; on Secret Service from £2,500 to £20,000; on Law Charges from £56,000 to £69,000, and on the office of the Minister for Justice from £36,000 to £43,000. We have expenditure on the Gárda Síochána, where the bulk of the economies were to be made, the Gárda Síochána, would no longer be required at the 1930 strength as we would have a Government that would administer justice to the people, increased from £1,500,000 to £1,800,000. We have the expenditure on the Supreme Court increased from £49,000 to £56,000, and on the office of the Minister for Education increased from £160,000 to £191,000. Finally, we have the Army, the expenditure on which was £1,100,000 in 1930, increased to £1,500,000 two years ago, and to £1,900,000 last year, while this year the estimated expenditure is £3,200,000. I leave out this year with regard to the Army. I have read out a considerable number of these Votes. I do not want to try the patience of the Dáil too much, but I could read out, I am certain, the whole lot of them and you would find that as between 1930 and this year there has been an increase in every one of the whole 70. I do not know how many of these Votes deal with social services, but we shall say approximately 15.

The chief argument of Deputy MacEntee, as he then was, when he was on these benches was economy, supervision, and control, particularly in the Departments that were not dealing with social services. The then Minister for Finance and his colleagues were accused of either turning a deaf ear to the groanings of the taxpayer or of being entirely indifferent and lax in their Departmental control. These charges were not made by men new to public life, by men without experience, or by men who had not been years in this Assembly. These charges were made by men who were years in Dail Eireann, many years in public life and many years functioning on the Public Accounts Committees and, because they were made by people in responsible positions and people with experience, they were believed. They were particularly believed by the people that had to pay the piper. We were told even then, when the modest sum of £21,000,000 was the cost of public services, that the then Minister's speech was a defence of squandermania. This defender of squandermania to-day—I take his own words—said that it was squandermania when £21,000,000 was required for the public services of this country. I am not a master of English like the Minister for Finance and I could not find a suitable word to describe £28,000,000, if "squandermania" is a suitable one for £21,000,000. I leave that to him or some one of the luminaries behind him. I am sure Deputy Corry has a word or two that would describe it, at a chapel gate meeting at all events.

We are gradually coming up against a realisation of facts and figures. I was in public life in 1930, like most of the other Deputies here, and there is no doubt about it that the people felt the pressure of taxation very acutely then; that they were finding difficulties in meeting the tax bills then; and that the country was not in such a very prosperous condition that it could lightly face a load like the Budget of 1930. Since then there have been very many bad years and few, if any good years; certainly seven or eight very, very bad years, one after the other. Agreeing with what was then the political Opposition that the pressure of taxation in 1930 and 1931 was nearly intolerable, looking for very many millions more in the present year, after seven or eight of the worst years the country has ever experienced, is certainly going beyond the bounds of toleration.

This particular Budget, leaving the defence proposals out of it entirely, is a Budget to celebrate the victorious termination of an economic war. Anybody reading that Budget will say with sincerity: "May God save Ireland from ever winning another economic war," because if that is the price of victory, defeat would be preferable. If the price of seven years of sacrifice is to be many years of further sacrifice, then it would be better that we never won. I did not catch the jingle of sincerity in Deputy Moore. If there are any people pleased with this Budget they are pleased because their worst fears were not realised with regard to themselves. The joy is relief that it was not worse.

Let us see exactly what it does. There is no relief for anybody. If you turn up the Minister's speeches the taxation of last year, and the year before, and the year before was justified and explained away on account of the fact that we were staggering through an economic war. There was one apologia after the other for the height of taxation last year, and the year before, and the year before—that we were a nation at war, that silver bullets were required, and that finance is wanted to fight any war. On that plea the Budgets for the last four years were got through. If that plea was put forward with any truth what did it mean? It meant, in fact, that when that war is over, no matter how it ends, you may expect reliefs in one direction or another. We are told it ended in victory. Anyone who bought a gallon of petrol to-day can celebrate the victory. Anyone who has a blast of a pipe to-morrow can celebrate the victory. Any unemployed man who was hoping for employment on a minor relief scheme can celebrate the victory. The fellow earning £3 a week can celebrate it when he pays his income-tax.

We are told that it is a Budget to tax the rich and that the poor are being safeguarded while the rich are being fleeced. I never knew, in this country at all events, that smoking was the monopoly of the rich. I never knew that it was the rich who hoped for employment on minor relief schemes. Let us remember that the Budget means this: that the Minister has got to shove his hands deep into every trouser pocket in this country; not only the trouser pockets of the rich but the trouser pockets of the very poorest people. According to his own estimate, he takes £600,000 off the rich, the income-tax payers; he takes £200,000 out of the pockets of the unemployed; £100,000 by less building in the Public Works Department; £100,000 by saving on the minor relief schemes Vote. Look at it whatever way you like, the unemployed man has to contribute £200,000 to celebrate the economic war victory Budget. The smoker, irrespective of wealth, must contribute in every ounce of tobacco he buys. The income-tax payer, irrespective of wealth, must contribute an extra 1/- in the £. Further, steps are taken in this Budget to ensure that people of a lower income than those who paid income-tax previously will be liable now to income-tax. I do not know if the man with £3 per week is popularly regarded as one of the rich that it is fair game to fleece. But the last sheep that is brought in for the fleecing to celebrate the victory is the £3 a week income-tax payer.

Fifteen or 20 years ago it might have been reasonable to regard motoring, in the main, as a luxury, or to regard motoring, in the main, as being a type of travel utilised only by the wealthier people. There is nobody in or outside this House who is going to suggest nowadays that motoring is a mode of transport used only by the wealthy. Some of the very poorest people, wage-earners and workers of one class or another, have to do their work now by motor. There are many hundreds of people in this country working hard for a living, whose living is not half the allowance of a Deputy in Dáil Eireann, who have to earn their living by travelling in motor cars. Yet every 20 miles that these people cover they have to contribute an extra 2d. to the victory Budget because we won the economic war, and on every single gallon of petrol they buy they have to contribute no less than 10d. in tax for one shilling's worth of petrol. If these wealthy people with incomes as low as £100 a year paid 1/- at one box for petrol and 10d. at another box for tax, they would begin to think of what a great Budget this is for the poor. You have £200,000 from the unemployed, a tax on the tobacco of every smoker, and an extra 2d., making 10d. in all, on every gallon of petrol purchased, whether it is purchased for the poor man's lorry or the very small fellow's car or the taxi driver, and as that sinks in a bit for everybody, from the Coombe and elsewhere, who is paying an extra bus fare, then we will not hear so much about fleecing the rich and sparing the poor.

The fact of the matter is that you have reached such a position financially that you cannot afford to let anyone escape. We heard many years ago, when the ballyhoo was on and when any cheer-raiser could start the crowd, all about the tariffs being only protective tariffs. Oh, no, they were not revenue tariffs—this was the Finna Fáil People's Party; they were the poor man's friends and they would not think of utilising a tariff in order to obtain revenue! These were merely protective tariffs and their revenue value would disappear in a year or two when the article was produced at home. In the Budget statement this year, however, we have a statement by the Minister that one of the things that makes our position so insecure in the event of war is that such a high proportion of our revenue is now coming from customs. Why is such a high proportion of our revenue coming from customs? It is because the duties that were called protective duties, and that were put over on a credulous nation on the plea that they were protective duties, are, in fact, according to the Minister, revenue duties.

Everybody knows that if you are out to get revenue through tariffs or through customs duty there is no use in taxing the article that is only used by the few, and that if you want to get money you must tax the articles that are used by the many, and which few can avoid using. A very high percentage of your revenue is got from customs duties now, according to the Minister, because we are getting revenue from every article bought and used by everybody in the country. It is popular here to refer to the British régime in this country as hateful and tyrannical, but I remember the time when, in the face of a European war, the British Government in this country taxed petrol—about half as much as it is at the moment. They taxed petrol in order to hit at the rich, and not at the poor; in order to hit at the people that were using motor cars as luxury articles; and they exempted the doctor and the priest and the man who was earning his living by motoring, and all such people who were earning their livings while the wheels of the car went round got a rebate of the tax. That was the line taken by a tyrannical Government. The very theory that justifies income-tax is that it is a tax paid on profits, not on the expenses of the job or the expenses of the worker, and when you tax a man on his income and tax him again on the cost of getting that income, then the whole theory has gone upside down.

I agree with the Minister, and I agree with previous speakers from over here, that the position is serious and that the outlook is so bad that we cannot face the financial position if there is a European upset or a European war. The only way that any country can face a war financially is by accumulating credit and accumulating reserves in the years of peace, so that when a war situation arises they have great reserves of wealth and great reserves of credit. Anybody but a blind man or a boob could see the clouds gathering over the European horizon for years gone by, and every nation but ourselves was building up a credit-worthy State and conserving all they could and accumulating reserves so as to be able to stand the years or the days of strain. We, however, were intoxicated by our political success, by the constitutional revolution in changing Governments in this country, and the debauch of celebrating was carried on for seven or eight years, and it was a costly celebration, so that after eight years of celebrating that victory by an unequalled orgy of extravagance we find ourselves now in a position, with credit curtailed, with debt doubled, with little or no reserves, so that, according to the Minister for Finance, if war breaks out within the present financial year, the position of this country will be desperate—desperate, firstly, because we are getting so much of our revenue from customs duties on things required by the people; desperate, secondly, because we have not reserves and so we will find ourselves then in the position that we will have to start out and tax all we can where we can. Yet Deputy Moore is proud of that Budget and happy about the situation. I should like to be able to take my national responsibility as lightly as Deputy Moore. I do not know how any man, belonging to any Party, sitting anywhere in this House, who takes his national responsibility seriously and who is concerned with regard to the future of the country and has devoted half an hour to reading the Minister's statement, could be pleased with the situation.

When I stood up I congratulated the Minister on having been definitely frank and clearly courageous in the statement he made, but you may say what you like with regard to the clarity of the statement or the frankness of the document, the incidence of taxation or the capacity or otherwise of the people to bear it, but there is certainly nothing in either the Budget or the Budget statement that can bring joy to the hearts of anybody but the enemies of this country.

It is remarkable in this debate to see how sleepy Fianna Fáil Deputies have got inside the last seven years. One can see it even by the down-hearted look of Deputy Corry, who will probably speak on this. Deputy Childers has already spoken and made certain admissions. He is a bit younger and probably not as cute as Deputy Corry, but Deputy Childers had the pluck, in any case, to admit that he was on the wrong benches. Deputy Corry has tried that on a few occasions recently and I expect he will try it again to-day and say that the Government have adopted the wrong policy. Seven or eight years ago, when Deputy Corry and others were on these benches, the discussion on the Financial Resolutions would remind one of a Punch-and-Judy show at some seaside resort because of the way they jumped up and down to tell the House and the country of the bad work being done by the then Cumann na nGaedheal Government. A change has come now, and it is good that Fianna Fáil Deputies like Deputy Childers should admit to the country that things are serious and that something must be done.

Deputy Childers pleaded for co-operation from all Parties, but when certain suggestions for co-operation were made to the present Government some years ago, they were not accepted, and we know what we were then told we were. One would think that all the money raised by the Minister was for increased social services, but if that is so, how is it that to-day home assistance and rates have gone up? In my own country in the West, rates have gone up by one-third in the last seven years and we find County Galway £500,000 in debt after seven years of Fianna Fáil Government, after seven years of increased social services, and after several Budgets increasing year after year. I think the same applies to every county. How are we to get over it? A debt of £500,000 faces the rate payers of one county, while their rates have gone up by one-third within the past seven years. Something must be done and it is as well for the Government to take the matter seriously.

The Minister for Finance stated that some of the industries established under the Cosgrave regime were white elephants. What does he say to-day of the four alcohol factories which have not worked, or have worked very little, this season, and which expect farmers within a 60-mile radius of the factory to deliver potatoes at £2 a ton? What is to be said of what happened in Roscrea? That is how the money is being wasted and squandered. These are only four or five of the industries we know of and it would be as well for the Minister to tell the House what is the position of the other industries. A few which were established before Fianna Fáil took office are still going. The Carlow beet factory is going strong and the Shannon electricity scheme is going strong. What are the four alcohol factories doing? What has the Roscrea factory done and what have the other three beet factories been doing for the last 12 months? Are they not all on the down-grade?

These five or six industries I have mentioned, established by Fianna Fáil, are the white elephants and the biggest white elephant of the whole lot is the Minister for Finance. He is the cause of the present position in this country. Not one of these industries has done an iota to reduce unemployment and in fact, they have increased unemployment because the tariffs imposed for revenue purposes on goods coming in here which are not manufactured here have put people out of employment. Take the building industry. Why is it that the Dublin Corporation were not able to raise their loan?

They did raise it.

Mr. Brodrick

Because the people would not subscribe to it.

They did get it.

Mr. Brodrick

How much did they look for?

£1,600,000.

Mr. Brodrick

How much did they get?

Nearly the whole of it.

Mr. Brodrick

They got £800,000.

The lists were closed on Wednesday morning.

Mr. Brodrick

They got £800,000 out of £1,500,000, and Messrs. Guinness gave them a fair amount.

The lists were closed on Wednesday morning and the loan was fully subscribed.

Mr. Brodrick

Is it a fact that they got £800,000 out of £1,500,000?

If the Deputy would address the Chair, we would have none of the cross-chat.

Mr. Brodrick

Let me deal now with the West of Ireland. The Galway Board of Health had a labourers' cottage scheme which was completed, but they still needed sanction for a £300,000 loan to start another scheme. What was the answer to it? The answer from the Minister for Local Government was that he would not sanction a further scheme. In regard to building, how can we have employment in view of what the tariffs mean to the industry? They mean an increase of at least 35 per cent. Over building costs in 1934 or 1935. In the West of Ireland at that time, cement was delivered at a building site at £2 2s. a ton. To-day it is 55/- a ton. Nails and steel were delivered at £14 a ton. To-day they are £27 or £28 a ton, and although the factory in this country has a 70 per cent preference, the foreign nail could come in and beat them. We cannot make much progress at that rate. There was a 70 per cent. preference in respect of one item alone and a foreign firm could come in and beat them. That is why you have so much unemployment in this country and why people will not subscribe to the loan, from the subject of which Deputy Kelly has just run away. It is because building costs are too high, and they are high on account of the tariffs.

There is a little more in it than that.

Mr. Brodrick

Yes, the Conditions of Employment Act comes into it, too. It is time the Government took their position seriously. We see the position of the farmers and the poverty amongest them. The Government themselves, I am sure, believe that there is that poverty amongst the farmers. It is pitiable to see them this season without seed potatoes, without sufficient manures and with stock dying in low-lying lands. The fact that stock are dying is not the fault of the Government, but it represents a loss to the farming community and they should be compensated in some way for that loss. You cannot compensate them by increasing the taxation on them. Relief has got to come in some way—and unless that relief comes, there is a bad outlook for this country. I hope that during the coming year the Government will adopt some other means instead of squandering money as they have been doing for the past seven years, that they will really come to their senses and try to give the people of this country—who are anxious to live honestly, who are anxious to pay their way—a chance to do it in their own way.

I listened very patiently to the speeches which were made last evening and to all the sad stories that everybody had to tell regarding conditions in this country, and I hope that the Deputies who will follow me will give us some indication of what might be done, because we have heard a lot of criticism about what has been done, but no indication of what should be done. It has been pointed out by Deputy Brodrick that there are things we should not do, things which we should stop doing, and things that are necessary to be done. What I cannot see is why we should be building factories for which there is never going to be any use. It has been asked why was the Dublin Corporation Loan under-subscribed, but the mere point of asking the question does not get us anywhere. The power that the banks have is responsible for a great deal of the non-contribution towards the Dublin Corporation Loan. There was only £800,000 subscribed, and, of course, the banks had to underwrite the rest of it, with the Minister for Finance standing behind them as security. That loan was issued at 96 per cent.; and I have a little more knowledge of how it was carried through. I know that certain people were prepared to offer £100,000 investment in that loan even if they could get it at 98 per cent., but they were offered 1½ per cent. for it, and then offered a further ½ per cent., because the banks stepped in and said: "If you are going to issue it at more than 96 per cent. we will not subscribe," and, of course, the banks get a further 1½ per cent. for underwriting those who would not subscribe.

I notice in the Minister's statement that the annual charges paid on national and local debt in 1932 was £2,640,000, and in 1938 it was £4,500,000. I am just wondering why it is, if we want to issue a loan or pledge the credit of the country, we cannot do that as a Government rather than accept the services of a group of people who are not responsible to the community. I can appreciate what the Minister has said, that the future is rather serious, because, he says, the question of housing and the question of relief schemes are likely to continue to be active, and the position is one that cannot be regarded without uneasiness. I know the position as it is in the City of Cork alone, where at present and for a number of years to come we want a big sum of money for houses for people in the poorer districts, living in the slums, sometimes in a miserable condition. During the past five years the citizens of Cork—numbering 80,000—have paid over £90,000 in interest alone to build houses for the people. That is to say, for houses alone the 80,000 people of Cork have paid £90,000 in interest alone.

I suggest seriously to those who have been talking about all the fearful things that are going to happen, since income-tax has been increased by 1/- and petrol has been increased by 2d. per gallon, that they should bear in mind that the people who are taxed in that way are the people who are able to bear it best. They should be prepared to forego some of the things that they treasure in life, and reduce their standard of living. Undoubtedly we have in this country a mass of poor people, and these people cannot be relieved by persons coming into this House and making long speeches and then going home feeling that their duty has been done and that the problems of the country have been solved.

I notice that in 1926, and again in 1936, there was a complete census of production taken by the State, and the return shows that the net profit of industry remaining in the hands of the employing classes was 66 per cent. higher in 1936 than it was in 1926, but the income-tax yield in 1936 was only 4 per cent. higher than it was in 1926, and between 1926 and 1936 there was a considerable increase in the number of persons employed in industry: the figure in 1936 was actually 50 per cent. higher than in 1926, but the total earnings were only 38.4 per cent. higher than in 1926, which means that earnings were approximately 8 per cent. per head lower in 1936 than in 1926. I would like somebody to face those realities, and tell us what is really necessary to be done, with a view to improving the position without taking the kind of action that has been taken in the Budget. We know that the average person in the street, and especially the poorer classes, are contributing their quota to the taxes levied in this country.

I would suggest that until such time as the Government takes control of the credit and currency of this country— we can make as many speeches as we like—but we will never get anywhere towards solving the problems which are facing us. I might suggest that some of the recommendations of the Banking Commission Report be considered— particularly the recommendations in the minority reports. We should not be entirely guided or influenced by the majority report that we have been told about so often, because if we accept the majority report we remain as we are— we cannot obtain sufficient money for housing or other essential services and, in other words, we continue to be restricted in our activities. The sooner the Government takes control of the credit of this country the sooner will we be in a position to put an end to the poverty that exists.

In the course of the Minister's speech in introducing this Budget he referred to the fact that the Dáil had passed certain Estimates. He implied that the Dáil was responsible for presenting him with the bill that he has got and for which he in turn comes along to tax the people. It so happens that the Dáil is not to be charged in that fashion, unless the Ministry is prepared to discuss every single salary and every single service in the Estimate, and that we are to have divisions here from morning to night on that particular programme. It is not done. General policy is discussed, it is the Ministry which is responsible for the general policy, and this is the fruition of the Ministry's work of the last seven years. It is not a very creditable result to them, to those who supported them in this House, or to the still more unwise people who sent both them and their supporters into this House.

Let us take, now, just one item to which reference has been made from both sides of the House in the course of this discussion—the growing of sugar beet. In volume 49 of the Official Debates for 1933, column 477, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Lemass, states that ½d. in the lb. on sugar beet will be the cost to the community, and he assesses that at £500,000. It transpires that it cost us £1,000,000. Those are the people who are to be regarded as sacrosanct who, when they make a pronouncement, must be listened to with respect and attention, and that is the sum and substance of their knowledge of a proposal that they bring before the House.

Deputy Moore was at some pains this evening to ask, what proposal had we got to put before the House other than the Minister's Budget? My proposal is to throw out the Government. They have been, from the commencement, before ever they became a Government, a blister on this country. Before they came in here, they ranted throughout the country about bankruptcy. When they were in opposition they told the people, just before every Budget that was coming along, that we were heading towards bankruptcy, and since they came in here as a Government, they have done their damnedest to make this country bankrupt. They have not succeeded, but they have certainly made an impression upon the savings of this country which have deteriorated year after year with almost clockwork regularity. If there is any doubt in anybody's mind about it, he can consult a publication issued by the Currency Commission every quarter and he can there compare the sterling assets of this country over those years. Allowing for fluctuation, which occurs now and then, there is a remarkable contraction in them.

We speak of the credit of the country, but the credit of the country is not made up of laudatory speeches here in this House or of oratory concerning what great people we are. The credit of this country is to be found in the accounts and in the records of our balances in banks and the general business of the country. According to the Banking Commission, our national income has not increased; it has diminished. It has diminished particularly since this Government took office. It is all nonsense to be talking about the credit of the Dublin Corporation or the credit of the Cork Corporation or the credit of this State and seeking to find some extraordinary, magician-like, method of altering the facts of the situation.

Seven years ago, the agricultural exports from this country, compared with what they are to-day, were prosperous. They were not regarded as such. What are they now? Is it possible that, bearing in mind what they were and what they are now, any sensible man could say that we have maintained the credit of the country during those seven years? Leaving out of account the expressions of opinion that are embodied in the Report of the Banking Commission, what is really involved so far as that Banking Commission Report is concerned? They deal with what is called the balance of payments. In essence, what does that mean? It simply means, are you able to pay your way year after year or, by reason of over-expenditure, are you drawing upon your resources, or are you going into debt? It varies according to the wealth of the individual who is concerned. Taking the sum total of the whole business of the community, the balance of payments during recent years has been against us. Demosthenes could not restore the credit of this country in circumstances such as those. We learn now, from various signs of one kind or another, that that fact is penetrating into the minds of those who are responsible for the Ministry that is here in this House—and the Labour Party is not free from blame in putting them where they are and in bringing this country to the position it is in at the moment.

That is very questionable.

The Lord Mayor of Cork was not here. It is not so much his fault as the fault of some of his former colleagues.

I have a good idea of what happened.

The fact of the matter is that the people were promised an Eldorado. We were to have more prosperity and save money. The sum total of the whole thing is that we have lost, and lost heavily. The worst feature of it is that we are losing the best of the young men and women of the country, a fact which is far more costly to the country than the money we have lost or the markets we have lost or the profits which were to accrue to the agricultural community in the country.

I will deal now with what concerns us more than anything else—the balance of payments. After seven years of an intensive industrial effort in this country, let us examine just one aspect of it. Before this great industrial push, we exported, excluding from our consideration tractors and parts, £1,600,000 worth of industrially manufactured goods. What was the export in 1935?—£600,000 worth. Is it not plain to anybody that, if after an intensive industrial push such as that, we are losing ground, our whole dependence is going to be upon agriculture in this country? There, at any rate, is a market and there is the land and there are the people and all the elements capable of producing results, with one obstacle—the Ministry in charge of the affairs of this country and the Party which is supporting them and the occasional lapses from grace of the Labour Party in giving them assistance.

I think there is a little more to it than that.

Take this Budget. It is a popular Budget. How often is popular opinion wrong? What is the meaning of popularity? £700,000 is going to be taken from the rich. That is very popular, because the poor are going to escape. Let us for the moment exclude from our consideration from whom it is taken. It is taken from somebody. It will not be spent. The people who had it to spend last year will not have it this year, whether for employment, luxuries, motor-cars, theatres, racing or anything else. That money is going to be sterilised this year. It is wanted for the national finances and these people cannot spend it. Some people will be disemployed as a result of it. Other people who may have been helped from one source or another will find that that help cannot be continued. On its face, is not that a condemnation of extra taxation in this country? The spending power of the country is going to be reduced by £700,000. At any rate, we can all say this—whatever happens, the people who are going to contribute that have it to contribute, even if they do lessen their expenditure in any direction by reason of it. They will buy less boots, less clothes and there will be less bootmakers, less tailors, less motor assemblers working. At any rate, they have it to spend. Let us look at the other side—the unpopular side. We started to balance this Budget, according to the Minister, in an extraordinary fashion. He wanted £4,500,000. He was entitled to deduct £1,000,000 for over-estimation. And it is no credit to the Minister or to the Government that they present to us a list of Estimates totalling a sum of approximately £30,000,000 and say: "We are £1,000,000 out."

They were £1,000,000 out in £30,000,000. If they were contractors for a job and put in an estimate of £31,000,000, and if other people put in an estimate for £30,000,000, they would not look well on it. After seven years in office they are not able to estimate, within £1,000,000, the sum that should go down in their Estimates. Leaving that aside, they take off £1,000,000. They go further and say: What is there that we can take from this Estimate and place upon the borrowing list? Now you are entitled to borrow in respect of capital expenditure. We are borrowing here for an air port. We asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance in the course of the discussion on this Estimate, what was the life of one of his air ports, My recollection of the information given to me by the Deputy on this side of the House who asked the question was that he really could not venture to express a close opinion on it: that, so far as the air port itself is concerned, it might remain, but that it might get out of date and that he would not put a long life on it. I say that in a case of that sort, having regard to my experience in municipal matters, I would not put a longer life on it than five years. If Deputies look up the returns in connection with loans they will find that the period in connection with them is very much longer than five years. The period in some cases is 20 years, in other 30 years and in more cases 40 years. I know that in connection with our first £10,000,000 loan, the sum of £350,000 a year was set aside for sinking fund purposes. When the loan was converted afterwards that sum of £350,000 went down to a little over £120,000. Apparently, we are going to take a much longer time to pay £6,000,000 than we estimated for the £10,000,000 loan that we here took responsibility for.

We are going to borrow in respect of £2,000,000 worth of the Estimate, including the £350,000 for unemployment. Looking over those Estimates for the last four or five years, you find, year after year, the sum of £1,000,000 or £1,500,000 for unemployment. Apparently the industrial push has not absorbed persons into employment to the extent that the Government would be relieved of the necessity of putting up a large Vote here to give employment to them. Borrowing in respect of that, if it be for the purpose of giving employment, is absolutely and entirely indefensible. Any person considering the question of investing his money in our loans and who looks up this need not look for any speeches. He can draw his own conclusions from the fact that that is being done, and so with regard to defence. We have the huge sum, amounting to £1,350,000 in all, for the Defence Vote. I would like to know whether it is intended to spend all that money during the year. If it is, surely munitions and the rest are not worth a 20 years' purchase. There, again, if we are going into the market, and if people have to consider whether or not they will subscribe to our national loans, a thing of that sort will be enough to keep them from putting their money into a national loan.

A further examination shows that while the £700,000, that I have already spoken of, is being taken from people who have it to give, there is £350,000 being taken from people who have nothing. By reason of that particular economy men who had a prospect of getting work are told they will get none. I would say that is indefensible. It is all the more indefensible because whoever put up that Vote last December to the Department of Finance must have had some sense of his responsibility as a Minister, but the Minister for Finance and his Department, if they did their work, had no right to allow a sum of that sort to appear in the Estimates if it was not going to be passed. It has all the appearance of being simply a blister on the unemployed to take it out now. I hope that is not the case, but the evidence is all in favour of the unemployed being asked to contribute that £350,000.

The roads of this country are maintained from two sources: from the local rates and from the proceeds of the road tax. The road tax is pretty considerable, and the people who use motor cars are entitled to have the road tax that they pay spent on the construction and maintenance of the roads. The roads have not improved during the period of office of this Government. Up to 12 months ago the Government took out of the Road Fund £100,000 each year for two years and are now going to take another £150,000 from it. That is a miserly and miserable method of balancing a Budget.

Deputy Moore this evening spoke of the danger of Deputies talking about bankruptcy in the course of their speeches in the Dáil. I am not giving away any secret when I say that it would take a much worse Government than this one to bankrupt the country, although it could be done. There are worse things than bankrupting the country. They have done almost as much as could be possibly done: they have bankrupt the main industry of the country. Prices, generally speaking, are good, but the costs of production are such that the young people find no interest in remaining on the land. That is worse than bankruptcy. If, by our exhortations to the people and to the Government, we can get the Government to change from that line, then I say that it is our duty, as a Parliamentary Opposition, to persist in that course. It is our duty to denounce and to criticise any and every public proposal, whether it emanates from the Government or the municipality, which does not conform to sound public business. In the course of his speech this evening Deputy Moore also referred to the fact that Mr. Sherlock, the ex-Town Clerk of the City of Dublin, gave evidence before the Banking Commission. The Deputy said that he stated in the course of his evidence before the commission that speeches made in the Dáil operated against the corporation in the successful flotation of their loans. I have run rather hastily through Mr. Sherlock's evidence. He began at question 6662 and finished up at question 8925. The date is the 16th July, 1935. He answered something like 2,263 questions. The Deputy selected just one reference out of all that to prove that the Dublin Corporation has had any difficulty in raising its loans because of speeches made here. That is on a par with the type of criticism that we got here before the Government came into office, and since they came in. I find that at question 6689, Mr. Sherlock was asked:—

"You pointed out to us that the last issue of the corporation was, I think, unsuccessful?—Yes.

Could you give us any indication of what you think may have been the reasons for that?—It is rather complex, and some of the factors are completely unknown to me. One of the alleged reasons might be that we are going very often to the market. The other is, that the Government are also going to the market. Then, of course, our stock is not a trustee security outside this country."

They did not mention this particular matter. He was asked at question 6693:—

"We are anxious to try and find out all the factors?—As I said, our stock is not a trustee security in Great Britain. The economic or political dispute between the Irish Free State and Britain must have some effect upon the feeling of security...."

That was not mentioned. It was a very good reason for interfering with the flotation of a loan. It would appear that they had some communication from a finance house in England. A letter is given with regard to the flotation of a corporation loan, and there is this postscript to the letter: "The enclosed speech does not help to confidence in Irish credit."

"What speech was it?—(Councillor Kelly): Do not tell him."

He is a member of this House. It is my impression that that was not a speech from this side of the House. I may be wrong. In the course of the examination as to the cost of building coming down, because recently the tendency was more stationary, he was then asked:—

"To what would that be due?—A reduction in wages and for a time in the cost of some materials but, of course, the materials cost will tend to go up again. Cement will go up on account of the duty upon it, but cost generally had been falling steadily for four or five years."

The Minister has put the cement duty into revenue, but the Government is amazed when we told them that, because of the cost going up, they were interfering with profits, and making things more difficult. Another question was:—

"I think there is some tendency systematically to decry the credit of Dublin for some reason or other?— Yes, the credit of the country, not merely Dublin. You have Press articles, political speeches and debates in the Oireachtas...."

The three are mentioned, but we are the only people charged by Deputy Moore.

"Of course, it all depends from what side the speech comes...."

At that time they must have discovered that you cannot rely very much on Fianna Fáil speeches. The answer continues:—

"Some people say the country is going into bankruptcy."

There are 2,000 questions, but are we given a reason for what occurred in connection with the corporation loan? Did I bring out enough to indicate that there are other causes? I do not know that it is wise to discuss these matters here. The corporation has a very big responsibility, a great responsibility, indeed. Its liability for housing in Dublin is increasing. The same applies to other municipalities. Everyone knows that it will cost much money and many years to complete the task. It is only fair that they would not be hindered in that work. One of the hindrances is the extra cost involved or due to Government policy in connection with the various Budgets. The amount of money collected by the Government in 1936-7 in respect of building materials was £120,000, and in the following year £124,000. That was an additional cost to building construction. If home-produced articles were higher in price by reason of tariffs that also would contribute towards increasing the cost. Is it fair when dealing with the poorest section in the community, people in casual employment, and possibly people unemployed, in cities like Dublin or Cork, that they are to be asked to pay or contribute portion of that enhanced cost. Would not one think in respect to that that they would not be called upon to pay We will be told that they do not pay. If they do not pay someone else does, and the cost falls all the more heavily because of the additional charges. Assuming that persons were trustees, and had responsibility for investing money, and that an issue of stock is made, say, on behalf of the Dublin or Cork Corporations, if in that situation it is known to the trustees that by reason of tariffs on the goods used houses cost far more than they are worth or that the buildings could be sold for afterwards, would they not be likely to ignore it? What happened in the case of one flotation quite recently which was floated at £96 and of which the present market price is £94? The body concerned made a very good bargain. All these things have their reactions. Yet that is the one important item that has been neglected and ignored at all times by the Government.

Every progressive country uses its savings for investment. What are we doing? What has been done during the last few years in connection with investments in industrial enterprises of one kind or another? Changes have taken place. It was not the savings of the community went into them. They could afford to lose, but people cannot afford to lose the interest or the dividends on investments on which they are dependent. We have got to the stage in connection with municipal undertakings for housing and other matters, when we have to go to the public each year for a sum far in excess of their savings, and we must be in a position to show them that there are good reasons for borrowing the money.

There has been a change in policy in the last few years. There is a marked change between the policy of the previous Administration and the present one. We left no debts when we were leaving office except what the houses would be worth when sold. We paid the full amount, whatever the subsidy. There was not, perhaps, as much done as has been done in the last few years, but there was no unsteadiness brought about by reason of any of the work that was done, the prices were moderate and there was a decided expansion of building work. Now, after a spate of building for a few years, there is a slump. The slump comes at a time of world unrest and insecurity, that is interfering with the free flow of business, and with the confidence that one would have expected a quarter of a century after the Great War. We have a bill before us now the like of which we never had previously in this country in a time of peace. In my opinion it is beyond the capacity of the country to bear. We are asked to point out how it can be reduced. Many things could be reduced, and many economies could be effected. The Government in bringing these proposals before that House takes no light or leading from any section of the community. Take an unemployed man in the City of Dublin a certain number of children. He applies for unemployment assistance and gets a certain amount. It is insufficient for himself and family. He has been visited by a State official in connection with his unemployment assistance. Then he applies to the local authority—the board of health or some similar body—for additional assistance. They send an official to examine his case and they give him a few extra shillings. He has a corporation house and an official from the corporation calls and collects his rent. That man, who is unemployed, has had a visit from a State official, from an official of the board of health, and an official of the corporation—all for the purpose of giving him a few shillings and taking a few shillings from him. What business could prosper under such procedure? The Ministry were warned when the Unemployment Assistance Bill was introduced that they should avail of the services of the local authorities. That class of work is well done by the local authorities. The Ministry would not accept the suggestion and we have three officials dealing with a limited number of men.

Unless we can increase the national income by at least 33 1/3rd per cent., this Budget is going to make further inroads on the capital of this country. It is going to reduce, to some extent, either sterling balances or credits of one kind or another. It may be that people will sell securities which they hold outside the country and that may not be reflected in our sterling balances. But until we realise that we have got to cut our cloth according to our measure, it should be the business of the Government more than of anybody else to ensure that the outgoings do not exceed the incomings. The line of country adopted has been extravagant, expensive and non-constructive for the last few years and that ought to have a lesson for whomsoever comes after the present Government. If it were ever hoped to make a success of production by reason of tariffs, it should be done by substituting some form of taxation for the tariffs so that the burdens upon the people could be kept at a low level instead of making it impossible for practically half the people of the country to make a living.

To my mind, the Budget is a bad Budget. Its worse feature is its size. The second complaint I have to make about it is that it is not balanced. Other matters have been dealt with by other speakers and all I desire to point out now is that we are wasting time and money if we set up, year after year, commissions and tribunals to examine public matters and then relegate their reports to the pigeon holes of our various Government Departments. The report of the Banking Commission cost £8,740. It is worth it but, so far as I can see, it is an extravagance because it is not going to be used. The Government are not going to pay any attention to it. The loss will not be theirs; it will be the country's.

It is a healthy sign to find that the Minister, in introducing this Budget, adverted to the danger of the present high level of taxation and that one of his back benchers, Deputy Childers, had the temerity to say that he felt that the imposition of ever-increasing burdens of taxation must be stopped. He suggested, at the same time, that consideration of that matter would have to be adjourned for 12 months because of the present abnormal year. Deputy Childers appears to be a very sincere young man who takes his responsibilities in a very serious manner. But he left the impression on my mind that, but for his Party affiliations, he would be far more critical of the Budget before the House. The excuse offered is that this is an abnormal year. The Minister, in the very first paragraph of his Budget statement, made that the excuse for the present crushing level of taxation. So far as the Government is concerned, they are only being consistent.

The big excuse is the cost of the military measures taken to defend this country in the event of a major conflict in Europe. I do not propose to go into that matter in detail but it strikes me as a pure waste of money to provide an infantry force of 30,000 or 40,000 men to protect this country against invasion in the event of a major European conflict. I admit that, in view of the European situation, this is an abnormal year but, because of that, it should be a prosperous year for this country. Huge sums of money are being expended in the country where we sell our agricultural produce. Therefore, this should be a prosperous year for this country and, particularly, for our agricultural community. But what do we find? We find that agriculture was never in a more distressed condition than it is now. I suggest that, if we were making careful preparations for a war that appears to many people to be inevitable, instead of wasting huge sums of money in establishing an infantry force, we should be putting our farmers in a position in which they would be able to produce the maximum amount from the land.

We have had the experience of the great war that started in 1914. We know what occurred during that war and afterwards. We know the position the farmer was in and how he availed of the enhanced prices that resulted from the war. I am not suggesting that we should welcome such a situation again because, from experience, we know that any profits that accrued to our people were not of much use to them owing to the disastrous years that followed. We can anticipate that if we are going to have another war the results will be somewhat similar, and I think if money is to be spent preparing this country for the war it should be spent in equipping our people so as to put them in a position that they can produce to the maximum of their capacity. What do we find? Never in the history of this country, or of any individual in this House at all events, has the agricultural community found itself in a worse position. And it is not because prices are bad.

If things were right, and if the members of the agricultural community were not hampered to the extent that they are now hampered, this would definitely be a prosperous year for them, but it is not, and any Deputy on the opposite benches with experience of agriculture cannot deny that. Prices are all right; generally speaking, they are good; but the cost of production is so high that there is no margin of profit for the farmer. That situation has been indicated here by several Deputies during the last few weeks, even Deputies on the Minister's benches. They have pointed out that the situation is getting very serious for agriculture. What is going to be done about it? What encouragement did the farmers get from the Minister for Agriculture yesterday?

We had a debate on agriculture lasting five days. Surely the Deputy does not intend to resume it? Surely he is not going to reply to the Minister for Agriculture?

I do not propose to resume it. I am discussing Government policy.

Financial policy?

Yes. A few years ago the Fianna Fáil Party told the people that they had a policy which would solve the unemployment problem and put every man who was unemployed— there were 40,000 of them—into employment. They said that, as a matter of fact, their plan would require more than 40,000 men, and they might have to bring some of our people back from America to put them into industries here. The plan we have in operation to-day is that we are spending on the dole, directly through the Department of Industry and Commerce, £1,500,000; on unemployment relief schemes another £1,500,000 and that is supplemented by contributions from local authorities approximating to £400,000. Taking these three sums into account, we are providing £3,500,000 for the solution of unemployment. The plan for the solution of unemployment by the Fianna Fáil Government is vividly illustrated on maps hung up in the lobbies of the House. That huge sum is spent on a type of work that is non-productive; it is giving no return, and the financial resources of the country are being called upon year after year to finance that type of work.

Does any Deputy think that situation can long continue? Does anyone suggest that is a solution? No attempt is being made by the Ministers responsible to change that situation. The greatest strain is being placed upon our financial resources and our most serious taxation is being imposed in order to relieve this particular problem. Add to that sum of money, which I have indicated, the amount we spend on housing, on water supplies, drainage, sewerage works, all of them necessary social works, but nevertheless, for the most part, non-productive works. There is an enormous drain on the country's financial resources and there is a huge burden placed on the working people who have to foot the bill. I think that money is not being wisely spent, and the sooner there is a complete change in the policy of spending huge sums on work that is non-productive, the better.

That sort of thing cannot continue and it is one of the things that is crushing our agricultural community— the burden of taxation. The Unemployment Relief Fund has been raided by the Minister to the tune of £100,000 in order to balance the Budget, and people who would be put into employment by the expenditure of that £100,000 may now look to some other source. The Road Fund is being raided for £1,500,000. That was the policy of the Minister for the last couple of years. The contributions made by the motorists of this country by way of road tax, petrol duty and the duty on cars amount to over £3,000,000 and the allocation from that amount towards road upkeep is £650,000. What is directly contributed to the Road Fund in the form of road tax is over £1,000,000 and yet the amount that is being spent out of that fund for road upkeep is only £650,000. One would at least expect that the full sum of money contributed in road taxation would be expended on road upkeep. Instead of that, less than two-thirds of the amount is being expended.

What is the position? The trunk roads in this country—and they represent only one in every six miles of the roads—are maintained partly by the local authorities and partly by contributions from this Fund on the basis of what the local authorities propose to expend on them. The Government contributes 40 per cent. on that basis. So that the position is that one in every six miles of our roads is not even kept up out of this Fund, although the people who are using the roads, the motor and lorry owners contribute in taxation a sum of £3,000,000. Unfortunately, the taxpayers down the country are asked to vote £1,000,000 for the remaining roads. The cost of maintenance of the remaining five out of six roads is met out of direct taxation by the local authorities. There is no justification whatever for the raiding of this Fund to the tune of a £1 note, not to talk of £1,500,000 of money. That is one of the things that is contributing to the present situation of our main industry here. It is the policy of the Government all the time to throw back the responsibility on the local authorities and to restrict, by a clever plan, if you like, the contribution from the unfortunate ratepayers of the country by giving a grant for any particular work. The local authorities must contribute on a 50-50 basis or a 40-60 basis, as the case may be. This is an item that has struck me as an outrageous raid on this Fund. The Minister could, under no circumstances, justify this raiding when one takes into account how road upkeep is paid for in this country.

The Table circulated in connection with the Financial Statement is a very interesting one indeed. I did not intend to make any reference to the sugar beet; but for the fact that Deputy Moore referred to it I would not do so now. I do not know what experience Deputy Moore has in the production of sugar beet. But he spoke in a very authoritative manner, at all events, and I am sure he led many Deputies to believe that he knew all about it. There is one thing certainly on which I can assure this House and that is that if in reality, he did know anything about the production of sugar beet he would not be so hot on it. He declared in a very dogmatic way that sugar beet is a most suitable crop for this country, as if the very fact of Deputy Moore making that declaration was enough and could not be questioned. Nevertheless, there are a big number of people who tried to grow sugar beet under the present price conditions who are now sick and tired of it. I have grown beet since the Carlow factory was built and I must say this, that it is far more difficult to-day to get a profit from the cultivation of beet than it was when the Carlow factory was started, because the cost of production has gone up considerably in the meantime. We see in this White Table issued with the Budget statement that the taxpayer is asked to contribute in the coming year £1,050,000 to the sugar beet industry. That is a huge sum. I have no hesitation in saying that if the growers of sugar beet are not getting a reasonable return for the labour and materials they have put into its production—especially when you take into account that the taxpayers are contributing £1,050,000—then certainly that industry is not worth the huge sum that the taxpayer is contributing.

I wonder does Deputy Moore know that the cost of manufacturing one cwt. of sugar in this country is 6/3 as against 4/3 in England? That is to say, that the cost in this country is 50 per cent. higher than in England? The profit arising out of the production of a cwt. of sugar here is 4/6 as against 2/3 on the other side. So we have the fact that the cost of production here is 100 per cent. higher than in England. Does Deputy Moore approve of that? Does Deputy Moore believe that on that basis £1,050,000 contributed by the taxpayers of this country is being fairly distributed between the people who produce the raw material and the people who are running the industry, that is, the manufacturing end of it? I do not think it is a healthy sign for the future of this industry, and it looks as if the Government did not believe there was a future before it when one finds the company writing-off capital to the tune of £150,000 a year. In other words, the company proposes to write-off their capital in ten years. I admit that their predecessors, the owners of the Carlow factory, wrote-off their capital in ten years. But there is no analogy between the situation at present and the situation when the Carlow factory commenced operations, in so far as the predecessors of the present company had a ten years' contract and in that contract they had a certain measure of protection in manufacturing sugar. Naturally because the contract expired after ten years they had to make good their capital commitments within the ten-year period. But this is a national industry, financed by Irish money, and if the company believe that there is a future for this industry I ask them is it necessary to write-off their capital in the ten-year period? I ask the Minister, who is an authority on finance, does he think it is necessary to write-off the capital in a ten-year period if this sugar beet industry has any future? Would not a 20-year period be reasonable? If the capital were written-off in 20 years there would immediately be available for the producers here a sum equal to half of that £150,000, that is, £75,000. I do not think Deputy Moore was well informed in this matter when he spoke in that dogmatic manner on this subject; I assure him that the situation is not healthy and all is not well with this industry. Furthermore, I ask the Minister whether it is a fact that the Government and the company, if this industry has no future, believe that the sooner they make good their capital commitments the better. I do not know, but it means that the company are definitely availing of the financial procedure of their predecessors in trying to write-off capital in a ten-year period. As I pointed out, there is no analogy between the situation to-day and the situation which existed under the Messrs. Lippen group.

This table includes an item under the Pigs and Bacon Acts, 1935 to 1938, showing that agriculture has benefited to the tune of £1,300,000. I should like if the Minister, when replying, would clarify that figure. I do not understand how that has occurred when you take into account that the bacon exports from this country, in 1937, were only 531,000 cwts. The figure is slightly higher now, but it has not reached the peak point at which those exports stood under the last Government. Some people appear to forget that our exports in live pigs have practically disappeared. In 1931, we exported from this country 456,000 live pigs, and in the last year for which figures are available, the year 1937, the figure had been reduced to 66,000. That is not taking into account the amount of pork which was exported to Northern Ireland. We export practically no pork to-day. This year the figure for bacon has not reached the peak point, or even within 10,000 cwts. of it. This table also shows that we benefited to the tune of £290,000 in regard to eggs as against 1931-32. Is it not a well-known fact that, in 1931, we exported from this country approximately £3,000,000 worth of eggs, and that last year we exported only something over £800,000 worth? In spite of that, the Minister shows us by this table that the country has benefited by £290,000 as compared with 1931-32. I cannot understand any of those figures. I may be very dull about them. At the bottom of the column we are shown that, under the present policy, agriculture has benefited by £10,500,000 as against £2,441,000 approximately in 1931-32, an increase of over £8,000,000. I would ask the farmer Deputies on the opposite benches whether that increase is reflected down the country. I would invite them to go down and ask the farmers in rural Ireland whether they are well off, whether they feel the benefits of the additional £8,000,000.

Deputy Hickey, the Lord Mayor of Cork, has told us that it is all very well to be critical, but he asks what is the solution? I should like to say to Deputy Hickey that we have already pointed out the solution. There is a big and important market for this country at the other side, and everybody in this House is beginning to realise that there is only one market left. Why not make good use of that market, especially during this year when huge sums of money are being expended, when there is practically no one unemployed on the other side, and when every worker there is a potential buyer of our produce? Now is the time to make full use of that market. Now is the time to equip our farmers to supply that market, and not when it is too late and Europe finds itself immersed in a great war. It may take months or years to equip them to deal with that situation. Why is it not being done at the present time? Anything which is interfering with the cost of production in agriculture must be removed if agriculture is going to thrive in this country. Many things are interfering with production costs. It has been pointed out, over and over again, that we have no control over what we receive for our produce on the other side, and if we want to leave a margin of profit for the farmer we must reduce the overhead charges. How does the Minister propose to do that? By raiding the Road Fund to the tune of £1,500,000? That sum of money must be made good by someone. The unfortunate ratepayers down the country will be asked to make good that sum, which in the ordinary course of events ought to be provided by the people who use the roads. Those people do contribute the money, but it is not being spent on the roads. Why is not some attempt being made by the Government at the present time to get a favourable trade agreement with the people to whom we are selling our produce? As I pointed out here before, I think that the Government has a great opportunity of securing favourable trade pacts with the British Government at the present time but, evidently, they have not the courage to avail of it.

There is one other point to which Deputy Hickey referred. He pointed out that in his opinion the solution of this problem was the control of currency. I am no authority on currency, and I do not presume to express any opinion on it, but the people who have been advocating this control of currency have pointed to New Zealand as a headline for this country, and suggested that we should follow what has been done there. I think Deputy Hickey ought to know that the experiment carried out in New Zealand worked admirably up to a certain stage, but now it is just on the breaking point. I understand the reason is that, on exchange, the value of their currency has gone completely against them, so that their export trade is badly hit. If we want to maintain our export trade we must maintain our £ value. If we want to kill our £ value and kill our export trade, the way to do it is by inflation of currency, and by the control which Deputy Hickey suggests. That is my opinion. As I said, I do not presume to know very much about it, but it strikes me that that is certainly no solution. It is certainly no encouragement to the people who have tried to make good if you reduce the value of whatever they have worked hard to save. That is no solution.

I believe people down the country must be disappointed with this Budget. One would expect that there could be no new pretext for further increases in taxation. Up to last year we were told that we were fighting an economic war, that it was necessary that money should be expended and that the agricultural industry should be bolstered up by subsidies. These excuses have now all gone. The subsidies have disappeared and yet the taxpayer of the country is asked to pay over a £1,000,000 more in direct taxation than he was called upon to pay last year. When is the folly going to stop? When are we going to call a halt to this mad policy? When are the Government going to face up to their responsibilities, to realise that we are not exaggerating the position from those benches, that the country is definitely in a bad state, and that something must be done, and done immediately, to relieve it? The first step must be to reduce taxation, for the people who are in production cannot continue to shoulder these burdens. The people must be relieved if they are to continue on some sort of productive work. The sooner the Minister and the Government realise that the better.

I think the most surprising feature of the Minister's statement yesterday was the fact that when the Minister had finished his statement one member of his Party burst into enthusiastic applause. The question which the people in every corner of Ireland are asking themselves to-day is: why did Deputy Kelly clap, or what was he clapping for? Was it because income-tax had been increased, the business enterprise of the country thereby curbed and unemployment promoted, or was it because the burden of taxation upon the poor man's tobacco had been increased? Was it because the cost of petrol, the cost of bus services throughout the country, the cost of transport of farm produce to the markets has been increased? I do not think it was. I think the main reason that Deputy Kelly was so enthusiastic was because the Minister definitely and specifically refused to make any concession whatever to the agricultural community. The Minister has taken his stand definitely as an outspoken, resolute and implacable opponent of the farmer's claims. He has described farmers who have protested against the injustices under which they are living as perambulating farmers. I can assure the Minister that the farmers will continue to demonstrate until the attitude of mind which the Minister represents, and the city outlook for which he stands, has been brought to realise that the agricultural industry must be relieved.

In asking for relief for the agricultural industry we are not asking for an increase in the general burden of taxation. We are asking that expenditure should be redistributed so as to provide increased encouragement for producers in the agricultural industry. It is possible to expend more money on the promotion of an increased output in the agricultural industry without adding to the total of general expenditure. There are very many branches of the national services upon which economy could be affected in order to provide such money. The Army has been mentioned as one. The increase in expenditure for national defence this year amounts to over £1,000,000. If it were not for that increased expenditure, there would be no necessity whatever to impose any increased taxation this year. Any fair-minded person who considers the whole question of national defence must admit that this expenditure will not make any difference whatever as far as the safeguarding of this country from external attack is concerned. Perhaps the most satisfactory feature of the Minister's statement in the eyes of people like Deputy Kelly, and the most unsatisfactory feature of his statement in the eyes of the general community, was his assertion that the State is assisting agriculture to the extent of £10,500,000 per year. I can only describe that assertion as a falsehood.

Is that in order?

The Deputy must withdraw that statement.

Well, as being at any rate untrue. Perhaps if I were not in the House I would use a stronger word.

I think the Deputy ought to withdraw it and say that the statement was incorrect.

Incorrect then.

A much milder word than the Minister would use.

I shall endeavour to prove, and prove very conclusively, that the statement is incorrect. We have for example included in this £10,500,000, grants in relief of rates on agricultural land, £1,800,000. What is an agricultural grant? Is it a grant for the relief of agriculture or is it not a grant to make good the inequality and injustice in the present system of distributing local taxation? I hold that the whole basis of calculating the contribution which farmers ought to pay towards the upkeep of local services is unjust. I hold that the State has already acknowledged that it is unjust and, therefore, the Government has been forced to make some contribution with a view to remedying that injustice. That is not a gift to the agricultural community. It is simply an acknowledgment that the system of taxation is unfair and any reasonable person who considers the whole question must admit that it is unfair when it is remembered that a farmer with a valuation of say £20 is in an altogether different position from a businessman or a professional man with the same valuation, as regards income. Surely the State having recognised that this injustice exists and having been compelled to make some provision for it is not thereby voting money for the assistance of agriculture? It is simply voting money to redress to a certain extent the injustice which exists. I hold that the grant is altogether inadequate to remove the injustice.

Again, you have the same position in regard to wheat. It is stated here that £1,900,000 is provided to improve the price of wheat and that that is a contribution to the farming community. I do not think the Minister really believes that. The position in regard to wheat is that farmers could not, under any circumstances, grow wheat at the world market price. If the Government, in their wisdom, have decided to promote the growing of wheat in the national interest, surely they are not helping the farmers by making good the difference between the world market price and what is an economic price to the farmer? They are simply endeavouring to secure that a certain acreage of wheat will be grown, whereas if no legislation was introduced restricting the imports of wheat and thereby increasing the home price of wheat, there would be no wheat grown in this country. But the farmer is not deriving any advantage from the £1,900,000, because it is quite clear that if it were not for the fact that the State, by legislation, was increasing the price there would be no wheat grown. The farmers would turn to other crops which would be economic.

What crop?

Any crop, such as potatoes, roots or other crops for the feeding of live stock would be as economic, and farmers are finding as economic as wheat. I am not saying anything against the national policy. I am pointing out that it is not a contribution to the farmers, but a contribution, perhaps, to the general national interest, to increase the price of wheat. Nobody can claim that that £1,900,000 is provided by the community for the farmer, because there is practically no crop at present which provides the average farmer with less profit than the wheat crop.

Is it not obvious that it must provide those who do grow wheat with a larger profit than they would get from the rearing of live stock, otherwise they would rear live stock and would not grow wheat?

A certain number.

You would be putting more live stock on the British market in that way and bringing down the price.

I think that the increase in live stock, if there were no wheat grown, would not affect the price in the British market. As a matter of fact, the Minister for Agriculture has already pointed out that we have more live stock in the country at present than before wheat growing was introduced, so that there is no point in the Minister's statement. I fail to see how the average farmer is deriving any benefit from that. The national interest may be served, as I say, by having a certain acreage under wheat. I am in favour of that policy, but I do not think that the farmer is gaining any advantage. The same applies to beet. Beet at present is not any more profitable than any other crop; as a matter of fact, it is less profitable than a good many crops. At the same time, it is costing the State a good deal of money. I think it is set down here that it is costing £1,050,000 for the present acreage under beet. Why is that done? Because the Government consider that it is in the national interest, that it is providing a certain amount of employment, cutting down our imports of sugar, and improving our trade balance. But it cannot be claimed that it is a gift on the part of the general community to the farmer. Really, the people who derive most benefit from the beet industry are the working men, not only those on the land, but particularly those in the factories, and the manure merchants and other people. The farmer gets practically nothing out of it, only a good deal of exercise.

If you examine the Vote for Agriculture even, I think you will find that the greater part of the Vote for Agriculture is not a gift to the farmer. As a matter of fact, the expenditure on the Department of Agriculture goes mainly in salaries to officials which are spent mainly in the towns and cities. It might, therefore, be very easily claimed that the Vote for Agriculture was a greater benefit to the towns and cities than to the farmer. As a matter of fact, wherever you find farmers meeting together in the country you usually find them demanding that the Department of Agriculture should be abolished. If you proceed on the basis on which the Minister has proceeded in setting forth the various sums of money provided for agriculture, it would be very easy to go through the Estimates and point out far greater sums which are being spent in the interests of the urban population; but I do not think it would serve any useful purpose. One could point out the enormous amount of money spent on the promotion of industry, which is mainly for the benefit of the urban population. One could point out the enormous sums of money which are being spent on salaries in the various Departments of State and which mainly benefit the city here. A very large portion of the national expenditure is spent in or near the City of Dublin. One could very easily make out a table similar to that which the Minister made out showing that at least £15,000,000 of the national expenditure goes to the benefit of the cities and large towns. But I think that would be an absolutely futile proceeding.

I think that the table which the Minister has made out purporting to show the enormous amount of money provided for the assistance of agriculture does not do him any credit, and that he is more or less setting himself up as an opponent of any concession to agriculture. I think it is rather a good thing that we have at least one Minister coming out openly to tell us that he is opposed to doing anything for agriculture. Usually, most of the members of the present Government, when they are approached by farmers, directly or indirectly, tell us that they are spending sleepless nights thinking out ways and means of helping agriculture, and when a suggestion is put up to them they always say they will give it very favourable consideration and offer to put the scheme before their colleagues. But here we have at least one Minister who has the courage to admit that he is an implacable enemy of agriculture.

The important point which we farmers have to remember is that the Minister, who has declared himself openly to be opposed to any concession to agriculture, and who has provided misleading figures to show why nothing should be done, even if money were available, to help agriculture, is the Minister who controls Government policy to a very great extent, inasmuch as he holds the purse, and I think farmers will not be slow to grasp the fact that they are up against a very clearly defined and carefully considered opposition to their claims for justice. I think that this statement of the Minister, that the Government are helping agriculture to the extent of £10,000,000 and that therefore, even if the money were available, there would be no reason to help them further, will open the eyes of the farming community to the seriousness of the present position.

There are other aspects, apart from what I shall call this hostility to agriculture that was displayed in this Budget and in the Minister's statement, which must be condemned. The decision of the Minister to increase the taxation on tobacco cannot be approved of. Tobacco may be regarded as a luxury, but at the same time it is the one luxury in which the workingman can indulge at the present time, and it is the one luxury upon which taxation should not be increased unduly. If there was to be any increase in taxation, some other luxury should have been singled out— perhaps some luxury that would be more injurious or harmful to the general community than tobacco.

Can the Deputy suggest such a tax now?

Well, I do not happen to have the responsibility of providing this money.

But the Deputy has a very fertile imagination, and I am sure he could think of a good alternative tax.

I could suggest various ways in which it could be done, but I have not the slightest intention of suggesting any alternative to the Minister, because probably he would avail of my suggestion without reducing the increased imposts.

Oh, I would give all the credit to the Deputy.

And the Minister would also take the cash.

At any rate, I am sure the Minister is quite capable of devising ways and means of levying increased imposts on the community without any advice or encouragement from any Deputy in this House. Now, again, I want to say that the Minister in his statement has condemned what he described, I think, as the watchdogs of the perambulating farmers for suggesting increased expenditure in regard to agriculture. I do not know to whom the Minister was referring. He was probably referring to farmer Deputies on these and the Opposition Benches, but as far as I am concerned I have no apology to offer to the Minister or to anybody else for suggesting that there could be increased expenditure upon certain schemes for the promotion of increased agricultural production. Surely the Minister will agree that it is possible to increase agricultural production in this country, and if it is possible there is no other means by which that can be brought about except by increased capital expenditure. The money required for improving the agricultural industry and making it more productive might be money which could be raised by borrowing, inasmuch as it would be reproductive; but at any rate I think there is absolutely no way of increasing production unless by providing a certain amount of capital to bring about such an increase.

Again, the Minister, in speaking of demands by farmer Deputies for increased expenditure, may have been referring to such demands as for the de-rating of agricultural land or temporary relief from land annuities. I suggest, however, that while the Minister might describe them as demands for increased expenditure, these are actually demands for a reduction of expenditure: that they are demands upon the Government, not to increase expenditure, but to refrain from collecting money which they are at present collecting from the farmers to the extent of £1,000,000 or £2,000,000 or £3,000,000. That is not a demand for increased expenditure, and if that is what the Minister meant when he spoke of the demands of the perambulating farmers, I hold that he is wrong. What we want is that the Government should refrain from collecting as much money from the farming community as they are collecting at the present time. I think that if the Government went into their Estimates more carefully instead of trying to throw the blame on other sections of the community, and if they went into the various items of expenditure more carefully and were less generous in financing wild and sometimes hare-brained schemes for the promotion of various secondary industries, it would be possible to find money for the improvement of the agricultural industry which is the main industry of the country, without increasing general taxation.

I could imagine some years ago, what joy this Budget would provoke in the heart of the present Minister for Finance when he was in Opposition. I can imagine our present Minister criticising the then Minister for Finance, from these benches over here—that is, if he were even in a fit state to criticise them, because I should imagine that, from his political outlook and his financial outlook at that time, he would have collapsed completely at the idea of an increased expenditure of £35,000,000. It is very hard to imagine that our apostle of sound finance at the moment is the same person as the apostle of national economy of those days. One would like to agree with Deputy Childers and waive all political discussion entirely in this House, but after all it is not enough that the Minister or his colleague, Deputy Childers, should say that political discussion should be forgotten, and that the House should put their heads together on a sound national basis, because, if there is going to be criticism in this House from these benches, one need not consider it as actual political discussion now, because my contention is that if there is criticism, it arises mainly from the active political discussions of the Minister and his colleagues when they were in opposition.

Deputy Cogan referred to the agricultural industry. I do not want to reintroduce the subject of agriculture, since it was debated for four or five days here, but one might say that at the present moment the Minister shrinks very far from the question of derating or of funding the land annuities. Yet, once upon a time, he was an apostle of derating. Now, just a second! The Minister was once an apostle of derating. He may not have been an apostle of derating to the extent that derating was possible if he were Minister for Finance, but certainly, while he was in opposition, he had his ready-made solution to provide the money for derating which is now being asked for by the farmers, and that was to provide that money from the moneys that were going to be retained from the British. I could give the exact day and date, Sir, except that if I were to bring in verification of the various references the Minister has made from time to time and with regard to everything he said. I would have to bring in a stack of books so high. At any rate, he made that statement in 1928, when he said that derating was possible, that it would benefit the farmers, and that it could be financed without any increase in national taxation because the moneys were already available and could be taken from the moneys that the Fianna Fáil Government, when in power, would not pay out to the British.

It is very hard to understand, then, the position which Deputy Childers suggests, because, if it were possible to have no political discussions in this House, it would merely mean that the people on these benches would sit down and agree that the Minister was entirely justified in his present Budget. After all, the Minister may have believed eight years ago, ten years ago, or 15 years ago, that it was possible to run this country as a Utopian state for less than £22,000,000 or £25,000,000 per annum, but it is just the very same position as always arises—the man not in office can always do the job much better than the man in office, and when he gets in, he becomes educated. The Minister will have to admit, even though he laughs at that, that he has not heard from me, or the other Deputies on these benches, even when criticising his £35,000,000 Budget, any fancy scheme for wiping out the whole thing, and nothing as serious as saying that, if we came back into power, we could wave our hands and give benefits to this, that and the other section, while reducing taxation by £2,000,000.

That, however, is not the serious point. At that time, the Minister was satisfied that he could run this country more economically than the then Minister for Finance, but now he justifies his argument, so far as increases in taxation and expenditure are concerned, on two grounds, the first being an increase in social services. The Minister will admit that increases in social services alone would not represent the entire increase in expenditure between 1929 and 1939. The second ground is that the Estimates are dealt with by this House, that there is no detailed criticism of them, and that the Deputies on these benches who deal with these Estimates generally look for more money for something or other, and he then is in the awful position of being unable to curtail his expenditure because he does not like to hurt the feelings of Deputies who do not want to criticise the various Estimates. That is a rather peculiar position, because while expenditure on the Estimates may be criticised on this side, there is only one apostle of economy left in the House—and when I say "economy," I mean the economy of 1929—and he is Deputy Corry.

Deputy Corry would solve the position of the farmers, the position of over-taxation and the bad position of everybody else by reducing expenditure. He does not agree for a moment with lavish expenditure on departmental affairs, on the Civil Service. If the Minister is going to argue that one of the reasons for his inability to trim his Estimates occasionally is that they are not criticised from the Opposition, the Labour and the Independent benches, and that there is not detailed criticism of every 1/- of expenditure, he might ask the Deputy whom I consider as good a financial expert as the Minister, Deputy Corry, who is satisfied that the farmers could be provided for by reducing the Civil Service, where he would make the cuts and that, between this year and next, if the Minister is still introducing a Budget next year, he should consult Deputy Corry and ask him where those trimmings can be made.

Will the Deputy endorse Deputy Corry's recommendations?

The Deputy is prepared to make a deal with the Minister on that point. The day Deputy Corry introduces a motion in this House for the reduction of expenditure of that nature, I am prepared to vote with Deputy Corry, no matter what the Minister says.

You will not put out the Government this time.

I would not mind putting out the Government again, but the Government would not be so foolish as to go out on that. Deputy Corry and the Minister, in this House, would not dream of cutting expenditure on the Civil Service, or any of our services throughout the State, but when we have an election, Deputy Corry and Deputy Allen will go into action and say that the Government were forced out of office because the Opposition wanted them to spend millions of pounds more on the State service.

And was it not true?

It was true that that claim was made, but Deputy Corry has been here for the last 12 months and he never voted against one item of expenditure here. We have an expenditure this year of £35,000,000 or £41,000,000 in the White Paper, an unbalanced Budget of practically £4,000,000, and Deputy Corry, who in the last election fought tooth and nail because Fine Gael and Labour were going to give the unfortunate civil servant what we felt he was justly entitled to, never opened his mouth to criticise one item of expenditure in the Minister's £35,000,000 Budget. They want to have it both ways, and it is quite possible that they have been having it both ways. All I say about that is that even though, as Deputy Allen said, we came back smaller, if the country is satisfied to let Deputy Corry and Deputy Allen have it both ways—to advocate economy at home and expenditure here—the country is welcome to Deputy Allen and Deputy Corry supporting the Minister for Finance.

They found the Deputy's Party out anyway.

I did not catch the Deputy's remark.

That is the usual type of interruption. One good mutter is much more effective than any good statement. The position, so far as the details of the Budget are concerned, is still more illuminating. Once upon a time the Minister regarded a fall in the returns from estate duty as a significant factor in our national affairs, and believed that if the returns from estate duty decreased it meant that the people of this country had less money, and that the people were steadily spending their savings in order to cope with the extravagant expenditure of Cumann na nGaedheal; but now, in this year of grace 1939, the Minister does not regard a drop in the receipts from estate duty as indicating any such thing. When you find a drop in receipts in the year 1938-39, it merely shows that there was a crisis in world affairs and that the stock market had varied to such an extent that the Minister was not able to collect the amount of death duties which he had anticipated. In 1928 or 1930, when there was a slight decrease in the recepits from estate duty——

Stick to 1928.

The years will apply in the same way. When there was a decrease in the receipts from estate duty, the Minister argued that it was a sign of approaching bankruptcy in the country, but in 1939, when there is a decrease in the receipts from estate duty, it is merely a sign that the stock market received a shock because of the international situation, and the value of people's holdings decreased. I doubt the validity of that argument. I put this to the Minister, that the bulk of the investments which the average person in this country would hold, on which estate duty would be paid, would be a type of investment which is not violently affected by international repercussions or by fluctuations in the stock market. Ninety-eight per cent. of those investments would be gilt-edged securities, and they would not have shown a decrease to the extent of £84,000 on stock market fluctuations alone. I put it to the Minister that he will have to admit that if a reduction in the receipts from estate duty ten years ago was a sign of impending doom for this country, a reduction of £84,000 in the receipts last year is still more a sign of impending doom.

Does the Deputy know what was the drop in gilt-edged securities between March, 1938, and March 1939?

Is the Minister suggesting that that was accountable alone for the drop in estate duty receipts? He can argue that if he wishes, but he knows perfectly well that it does not justify a decrease of £84,000. There are a number of items of that nature, and another item of that nature was stamp duty. The Minister this year is estimating for a further reduced figure of receipts from stamp duty, £930,000. A year or two years ago, the receipts were £1,050,000, and ten years ago, before the big item of stamp duty, that which arises from the Hospitals Sweepstakes, came into being, the return from stamp duty amounted to £430,000 or £450,000.

Will the Minister not admit that one of the great factors in the reduction of stamp duty, either last year or in the coming year, is the fact that the normal stamp duty in the country—apart from such duty as that contributed by the Hospitals Trust—is decreasing every year? The normal stamp duty that would be payable on such things as the sale of land and marriage settlements is decreasing. It is perfectly obvious that we are going to have those taxes continually decreasing if the present situation is allowed to continue. It may surprise the Minister to know that it is very hard to sell a farm of land in this country at the present moment. It may equally surprise him to know that not very many marriage settlements are being made. That is an item that is going to affect the revenue, an item which the Minister should take serious cognisance of—the fact that there is a reduction in the stamp duties which are being paid on ordinary transactions. It shows a state of affairs where the people of the country are definitely not interested in buying land, definitely not interested in marrying their families and settling them on farms.

I rather admire the ingenuity of the Minister, because he would have been able to convince everybody eight or ten years ago that a reduction in stamp duty or in estate duty or in any other duty meant red ruin and disaster; but the Minister is fortunate—and that is one of the things about him, he is always lucky. In the first five years he had "abnormal years", the abnormal years of the economic war. His Budget last year was influenced by the "settlement", and at that time he was going to enter upon his first year of normal expenditure and normal taxation. But this year he has been lucky enough to be able to discover another abnormal situation. If the Minister's Budgets of the last five years can be accounted for by the abnormal economic period, and his Budget of this year can be accounted for by the abnormal economic position, it may be just as well for this country that the abnormal periods still continue, because I would not like to be dealing with a Budget that the Minister would consider to be a normal one.

As far as these minor items are concerned—such as estate duty and stamp duty—they do not affect the total very much. They do not make a terrific lot of difference. But the actual amount of taxation being levied on the people shows a definite trend in regard to the financial position of the ordinary people. The reduction of estate duty is not to be explained alone by the fluctuation of stocks, but by the number of people living on their savings for the past five years; and the reduction of stamp duty is accounted for considerable by the fact that people are not interested in the buying of land and that, consequently, the normal transfers of land are not being made as they used to be made some ten years ago.

I can only hope that the Deputies on the opposite benches are as anxious about the plight of the farming community as they would wish us to believe they are, and that they will encourage their supporters and friends to carry on that normal activity and make transfers of their farms and have marriage settlements made in the normal way, and not allow us to drift into the position where no transfers of land will be made and no marriage settlements will be made until the people have become so old that they can scarcely walk.

What about the Incorporated Law Society's charges?

It may be argued that it was good business for the lawyers but there is far better business for the lawyers—let the old people die intestate, so that the lawyers can argue it out with the Minister for Finance as to what the duty itself would be. As a matter of fact, if I had the choice, I would prefer to argue my case with the Minister for Finance. I would make more out of it.

The lawyers would stop the transferring of property.

At the moment the people of this country cannot afford to make transfers of land and arrange marriage settlements. If they have £700 or £800 they are not prepared to put a daughter on to a farm and arrange a settlement for them with that money. They will not put the money into the land. If that is not right, what is the explanation of the peculiarly low marriage rate in this country, what is the explanation for the fact that the average marriage rate is so delayed? Is it the economic condition or is it some social factor? If it is not the economic condition it ought to be easily settled and the wise-acres that we have ought to be able to tell us what to do about it—if it is merely a social and not an economic condition. But I say it is an economic factor, and I put this to Deputy Corry or to Deputy Crowley: In their own constituencies, how many farms of land are there for sale that they cannot get buyers for?

Very few—in my county, anyway.

There may be very few in Deputy Crowley's county, because they would not dream of putting them up for sale—they would get no buyer for them—but the Land Commission would come in and take the land over and divide it.

A Deputy

That is all nonsense.

That is another reason for the lack of sale for the land. When a decent-sized farm is put up for sale, would-be purchasers are afraid to buy it because some local friend of Deputy Crowley would start an agitation at the cross-roads and there would be a demand for its division and eventually the Land Commission would have to come in and divide it.

The Deputy is wandering.

I apologise for wandering, Sir, but you can hardly blame me if Deputies Crowley and Corry make me put these points.

Give him all the rope you can.

There is one man who would not need any rope and that man is Deputy Allen. Now, another nice item regarding which I would like the Minister's explanation is the deficiency of £68,000 in regard to local authorities. I put this point to the Minister: he maintains that certain amounts should be paid to him by local authorities under the operation of these Acts, but the local authorities say they should not be paid. The Minister is now introducing legislation to regularise his idea of the situation.

Is not that correct? The position of the local authority is that the Minister bases his figures on the total rateable valuation and is not concerned whether the local authority is able to collect the rates. He completely forgets that the local authority may have, in many areas, considerable property which may be derelict but on which rates are calculated for one reason or another. The Minister is going to get over that point by introducing legislation, for another great attribute of Fianna Fáil is that wherever they make a mistake they say, "We will carry on and we will rectify it later by legislation."

I was rather amazed that the optimist who is our Minister for Finance should use language such as he did use when referring to the Land Acts and the Housing Acts and the employment schemes. He said they are still likely to be active—a position which cannot but be regarded with uneasiness by the Minister responsible for the public finances. I do not believe that many years ago he regarded with uneasiness any payments that might be made under Acts for the division of land or under Acts for housing schemes or for employment schemes or for the provision of work. When the Minister introduced his Budget last year he was in very good form, he was rather buoyant about it, with the Settlement in the air. This year I think the Minister is rather mournful, that he is in a mood of despondency. It is quite possible that the later introductions to the Fianna Fáil Party may have converted the Minister to an orthodox method of dealing with the economic position. At any rate, his dreams have faded completely.

And you cheer him up.

He would need cheering up. The Minister who had to make excuses and who felt uneasiness in explaining the expenditure reduction during the economic crisis, and who explains that his Budget is in such a poor state because the year is an abnormal one, would need cheering up.

I wish I could cheer him up. He might be more cheerful if the gentlemen in the opposite benches, who insist upon muttering, had the pluck to get up and defend the Fianna Fáil Budget, and he might be more cheerful if Deputies Allen, Crowley and Corry got up and spoke in defence of the Fianna Fáil Budget. It is the old game over again. They want to create an impression in the country that all Fianna Fáil is not in agreement with this Budget.

We are, everyone.

Deputy Tom Kelly is the only one who is committed to it, along with the Minister himself. If Deputies Crowley, Allen and Corry wish to explain their position they cannot do it by interrupting people in this House. If they want to satisfy the people on these benches or the country as to what their ideas are about the Budget, they should get up and make a speech about it. But they are so shy! Deputy Corry is not shy. I believe he will get up, but I doubt if Deputy Allen or Deputy Crowley will get up.

As far as the other abnormal side of the expenditure is concerned, the Minister explained that by the expenditure on the Defence Force. The Minister has probably heard quite enough; for his own peace of mind, about the Defence Force. I believe that if the increased Vote for Defence in this country is going to be spent upon the development of our Volunteer force infantry brigade, it is an entire waste of money. I do not believe that the Minister or many of the Fianna Fáil Deputies are completely satisfied that the development of a Volunteer force of the nature which we have had for the last four or five years is the best possible way to spend money in adequate defence.

Deputy Professor O'Sullivan put the point very clearly—what did the Government expect would be our position in the event of a European line-up of nations? Are we going to face the position here that we may be invaded by a European power and, if so, are we going to face the position that we are going to have a defence adequate to repel that invasion? If we are, the sums that would be required for defence in this country would be entirely beyond the power of this country to pay.

One of the reasons I am referring to this is that the Minister criticised the Opposition, the Labour Party and everybody else in this House who was not in entire agreement with him, because they did not specify the various items of expenditure that could be curtailed. Supposing I suggested to the Minister that there were two items that could be curtailed. Would he agree with me if I said expenditure could be curtailed on Defence and on the Gárda—two very large items of expenditure which have increased in the past few years? Once upon a time the Minister would have regarded those two items as Votes that he would like to reduce to the smallest possible farthing, but the Minister then and the Minister now are two different people. I refer you, Sir, to barely ten years ago—25th April, 1929. In the Parliamentary Debates, Volume 29, column 926, the Minister says: "Expenditure must be cut down." This is our orthodox Minister for Finance when he was in Opposition:—

"Expenditure must be cut down. That is quite clear from the figures that I have put before you. Economies must be secured. I want to guard myself against misrepresentation, and I mean by that, not economies secured by the curtailment of the social services, but economies secured by more efficient administration."

If economies could have been secured by more efficient administration, where are the economies that have been secured by more efficient administration in the past seven years? The Minister continues:—

"There should be economy in every service which does not yield a due and proper return for the mass of the people who have to pay for it. There should be economies in the Army and in the Civic Guard."

Mr. Crowley

That is very old stuff.

Very old stuff indeed. I am quite sure Deputy Crowley would rather it were in the limbo of forgotten things than realise there was ever such a time as 1929-30, when he and the present Minister for Finance were telling everybody they could run this country on a Budget that would scarcely ask the people of this country for any money at all.

It was absolutely no trouble then. I will not even refer to the point that he was going to cut expenditure on the Army and the Civic Guard. I only take his own actual words—"economies secured by more efficient administration." If I were to test the Government's political record of economy, if the Minister for Finance believed that economies could be secured by more efficient administration and if he were able to carry out the task he set himself to do, he would have secured economies by more efficient administration without cutting social services. But, if I were to judge his record by the fact that there have not been economies but wild increases I would have to say that he did not know what he was talking about or that he was not able to carry out the economies he envisaged because the back-benchers of Fianna Fáil were too strong for him when they wanted him to spend more money in order to get some friends of theirs into the Army and the Civic Guards.

Last year the Minister was fairly cheerful in regard to his Budget. This year he is not even slightly cheerful. He has come around to the point where, literally speaking, he garbed himself in sack-cloth and ashes and explained why he was asking for this £35,000,000—the result of a five-years' economic war, an abnormal year, stock exchange tendencies and the danger of a war. I think he did himself more harm than good because I think he did something that no Fianna Fáil Minister, even the Taoiseach himself, was ever able to do before: when he concluded his statement he had succeeded in scaring the wits out of the Fianna Fáil Deputies in this House. He left them absolutely dumb-founded.

Deputy Kissane has arrived and I invite him, if he wants to say anything about it, to have pluck enough to make a speech and not add one more to the crowd of mutterers who are sitting on the Government benches. I do not want to be disorderly in this House.

Which Budget are you talking about?

Deputy Kissane would not know what Budget I am talking about, because, since he came into this House, I do not believe he ever read a Budget statement. He acted up to the best interests of his Party by sitting down and voting like a machine. But he did something other years that he did not do this year —he clapped loudly when the Minister's statement was ended. This year, like most of the other members of his Party, he was so dumbfounded that he was not even able to do that.

The Minister was even more pessimistic at the end of his statement than he was at the beginning. He mentioned again the point to which I referred, the question of stamp duties. He mentioned that they were likely to still further dry up. I hope that is not right, because I know that it will show a very bad outlook for the country. I wonder why the Minister had to descend to the little subterfuges that are reflected in the Budget. He thanked the Minister for Local Government and Public Health for his generous contribution of £150,000 from the Road Fund. I wonder why did he go to the bother of doing that. If he wanted £35,000,000 he might just as well have asked the House for the £150,000 as ask the Minister for Local Government for it. On what is that going to react? Moneys that should go back into road-making or road upkeep are taken by the Minister for Finance in order to help his Budget a little bit. He takes the sum of £100,000 from another Estimate—Public Works and Buildings. What does that mean? It means that £100,000 is being taken out of an Estimate that would tend to give a certain amount of employment. The first item—£150,000—is money that should be expended in productive labour, on road maintenance, and the second item—£100,000—is deducted from an Estimate that would also give a certain amount of employment. The Minister, who is always so fond of the unemployed, takes that money which should be used for employment schemes.

Why the Minister will not bother doing that I do not know, because his total is so grandiloquently magnificent compared with the totals that he used to criticise when on this side. Surely in these circumstances he need not bother about a paltry £200,000. I can hardly imagine the Minister since he got into office and into the habit of handling large sums of money bothering about such a paltry sum as that.

Is the Minister satisfied that, while he produces a Budget that may be a fairly popular one from the point of view of a lot of his friends down the country, it is not going to do great damage to the country? Many of his friends, of course, will now go down the country and say: "We have clapped on another bob to the incomes of the big fellows." Will not that have certain other reactions? Will it not abolish the differentiation that induced people to keep their money in this country rather than in England, where the rate was higher? How will it affect business people? A number of people in this country who are not millionaires may find that this additional 1/- will compel them to reduce the amount of employment they have given hitherto. I know, of course, that the Minister will not agree with me. Bad and all as the Budget is, the Minister wants to make it a popular one. He knows that his friends will be able to say, "We are after the big fellow all the time, and we are going to get the money off him."

The Party that the Deputy belongs to took the money off the old age pensioners.

The Civil War took it off the old age pensioners.

Even admitting for the sake of argument that this Party took a 1/- off the old age pensioners, let me put this point to the Deputy: that due to the activities of the Minister's investigation officers the people who are looking for the 10/- to-day are finding it very hard to get it. In many cases they have to wait a long time for it. In my opinion, they were better off with the 9/- that they were able to get under the easy system that prevailed in 1927.

When they were getting the 9/- the country had only to face a Budget of £22,000,000 or £23,000,000 a year, while to-day it has to face a Budget of £32,000,000, so that the 10/- to-day is not as valuable for the old age pensioners as the 9/- was in the old days. I observe that the Fianna Fáil chorus has come into the House. What a changed man the Minister for Finance is to-day from those dim bygone days when he was so lost in the clouds of fantasy that he merely came into this House and told the people what he could do without ever checking a figure. He is before the House to-day under the grim reality of his 1939 Budget. He is a sadder but a much wiser man. If the Fianna Fáil Deputies are satisfied with this Budget, if they think that it is in the best interests of the country to continue this abnormal expenditure—abnormal was the word used by the Minister—then I invite the members of the Fianna Fáil chorus to get up one by one and defend this Budget. I extend that invitation to Deputy Corry, Deputy Allen, Deputy Kissane and the rest of them.

I think there is a certain feeling of relief, which the Opposition have some difficulty in restraining, that the Minister for Finance has been able in the difficult circumstances with which he has been faced, to give the country a Budget which does not press unduly upon the community, and in which a special effort has been made to be as lenient as possible on the poorer sections of it. Now, it is the duty of the Opposition, on an occasion of this kind, to examine from their point of view the state of the national finances: to show, as well as they can, that taxation is in excess of the country's requirements, that expenditure is extravagant and should be cut down, and so on. They would not be doing their duty as an Opposition if they did not take up that standpoint. It is the duty of the Government in office to justify their expenditure, and to justify to the country the taxation and the burdens which have been imposed on it in order to maintain the services which have been provided.

The Opposition, up to last year, took up the attitude that the moneys which the Government was spending and which undoubtedly the circumstances of the time tended to make them veer towards, whether that expenditure was on social services, on development purposes or for the relief of agriculture, were not, in fact, advantageous at all; that so far as the farming community was concerned, whatever advantage they were getting from Government expenditure—and that was very doubtful—was altogether weighed down on the other side by the losses which the farmers were suffering from the economic war. The economic war is finished. Therefore it is not now possible for the Opposition to argue that the losses in connection with the economic war far outweigh the advantages, to the agricultural community in general, which the Government have been making provision for in the annual accounts. One would imagine, therefore, that it would be reasonable to ask them the question: Must there not be a clear saving in respect of the sums of money which are allocated directly to agriculture or for development in rural areas, or in respect of that proportion of the moneys spent on social services in rural areas? If the only argument the Opposition had up to last year was that no expenditure of money, no widows' and orphans' pensions, no unemployment assistance or extension of old age pensions could possibly be of any account, are we not justified now in pointing out that they are rather illogical in not admitting that all the expenditure that goes into rural areas must at any rate be of some benefit to these areas? Is it not preposterous to pretend that two services like the old age pensions and widows' and orphans' pensions—to take only these two—are not the greatest benefit to rural areas, and that in all probability a larger proportion of these money is going into the rural areas than into the urban areas?

The attitude of the Opposition up to last year was: Settle the economic war and then we can manage our affairs in peace and contentment. Is it not extraordinary that they should now argue that all this expenditure is of no benefit when, in fact, we know that every rural parish in the country is benefiting from it? I am surprised that Deputy Cogan should ally himself with the Opposition in pretending that all this money that goes for the agricultural services, for development, and for social services does not go into the rural areas and does not benefit farmers.

Even if we assume that the Vote for the Department of Agriculture is of no benefit whatever, none of the money spent under any of the sub-heads, as the Minister pointed out last night, was criticised. There was simply a general attack which led one to believe that, as far as the Opposition were concerned, they took very little interest in the details of the Estimate, which might have been doubled or wiped out as far as they were concerned. If we turn to export subsidies on butter and poultry, we find that the amount is £606,000. That service was not there before the economic war, and a good many people expected that it might have been wiped out. Do Deputies who represent farmers think it should be wiped out? Certainly, it cannot be argued that it is not directly in support of agriculture. For the relief of rates on agricultural land, £1,870,000 is provided, and towards the reduction in land purchase annuities, £2,200,000.

Let us leave aside the £1,050,000 provided for the beet sugar industry, on the supposition that it is of no benefit to farmers in certain areas, and look at the increased provision made for pigs and bacon production and wheat, and we find that under all these headings there are very substantial increases due to Government action. In my Department a sum of nearly £5,000,000 is provided yearly for education. I notice that the amount for primary education comes to £3,749,697, as well as £250,000 for the construction of national schools. Does any Deputy suggest that a very large proportion of that expenditure does not go into the rural areas? Undoubtedly it does. When it is stated that the rural areas do not benefit that is, patently, an absurd argument.

Under what heading do these areas benefit except to provide sand to make the mortar?

The Deputy may be able to co-relate the sand to the value of the education we are providing. That is certainly a very flattering compliment !

It applies to only a few rural areas.

I say that about 80 per cent. of the expenditure under these headings goes to the rural areas, and the remainder to other areas. It could be easily argued on the basis of our population that in regard to social services various things have been done. Take the position of the Land Commission on afforestation. How could anyone claim that the whole of the money expended, with the exception of the cost of administration which, perhaps, is higher than it should be, does not benefit these areas, assuming that the idea should be to put the largest possible amount of it into labour? The Government is providing £185,424 for afforestation, and the Land Commission is also expending £1,792,000. I claim that practically the whole of that money, with the exception of administrative expenses, goes to the rural areas, in addition to the amounts set out in the Tables for social services and the relief of agriculture. The farming community should have regard to the fact, in justice to the Minister for Finance, that it is proposed to continue all these services, and that, so far as the impositions in the present Budget are concerned, whether they be farmers or labourers, they cannot claim that they have got the heavy end of the stick. If they did, no doubt the debate would be much more exhilarating. In reply to critics like Deputy Cogan, who think that on the whole these services are not worth what they are costing the community, we have to have regard to the needs and the demands of our own people, who expect that such services should bear some relation to those with which they are familiar in other places.

We are constantly hearing from the Opposition Benches that the farmers in Northern Ireland are better off than the farmers here, and that we should have derating and something else, so that our farmers would not be, as alleged, in a position inferior to that of their Northern competitors. The same argument might hold in regard to social services. Not only is it in our own interest to maintain a decent standard of social services but, if we are to have any hope for the reunion of our country, we have to make sure that the people we are asking to come into our territory will not lose substantially in the services to which they have become accustomed. Here they will get benefits in other directions, having regard to our circumstances, that will compare favourably with those in neighbouring countries. I thought the tendency of the Opposition should be to forget the economic war, except when they drag in the slaughter of calves or something else, of which they find it impossible to rid their minds.

The Opposition should, at least, be content with being in the position that they have not responsibility for this taxation, and that it is their privilege to be free to criticise it from many different angles. On the one hand, they can claim that the expenditure is of no advantage to the country, particularly to the rural areas, and, on the other hand, they can demand that derating and other services should be introduced that would cost still more money. In fact, they are in the happy position that consistency, even in the same debate, is not to be expected in their speeches.

They blame the Government for the unfortunate situation that ruled last harvest and which made farmers despair. They try to attribute to the Government some special malevolence in dealing with the farming community because they suffered as a result of the bad harvest and, having a feeling of despair, naturally asked themselves whether it was worth while continuing farming if such conditions were going to persist. Even making allowance for extreme statements, I think it is too much that an attempt should be made to foist upon the Government responsibility for losses farmers suffered through happenings over which they had no control. The Opposition went further. Deputy Cosgrave mentioned that we are losing our most valuable asset, as our young men and women are leaving the country. That is a statement with which we all agree, but the Deputy went on to attribute the exodus of the population from the rural areas to Great Britain, or wherever they may be going, to the high cost of production on the land. He said that was directly due to Government action. Whatever be the cause which has led to the flight from the land, surely that was not the only cause. There must be many other reasons. One reason is that wages, conditions, amenities and leisure are much more satisfactory elsewhere.

Another circumstance is that in an Irish farming household only one boy can expect to inherit the holding. The rest make their living in some other way. It is said that we should not have industries in the country. Strong protests have been made against the Government for developing secondary industries. It is said that we should give up that idea completely, which would add 100,000 to the ranks of the unemployed. If these industries were closed down, where would these people find employment? Would they find it in the Civil Service or the teaching profession? We know that the avenues in these directions are closing down. Unfortunately, the emigration of our young people has gone on in the past and is going on in the present. That is not due to increase in the cost of production on small holdings. As was stated here yesterday, about 80 per cent. of our holdings are, possibly, under £10 valuation. It would be, perhaps, more true for me to say that the de-rating of agricultural land would cost these households far more than they would gain than for Deputy Cosgrave to allege that Government action has so increased the cost of living that these people have been compelled to leave the country.

Would derating not benefit agriculture as a whole?

The fact is that the poorest areas in the country——

You will not apply yourself to that question.

The Deputy will have his usual two hours in which to make his speech.

I spoke with you when you advocated de-rating in Carlow national school.

You may speak after me on this occasion.

You are not shouting so loudly to-day as you were a few years ago.

We know that substantial Government assistance is coming into those households along the West coast in one form or another. I venture to say that if any of those Deputies who tell us that the exodus from the poorest communities is due to the action of the present Government ask the people of Connemara, or areas like Connemara, what the present Government has done for them, they will receive a unanimous rebuttal of their own allegations. The Government has done well for them, and, on the whole, they are satisfied that, having regard to the conditions, they have not been by any means neglected. Therefore I submit that that is pure political propaganda and not worthy of Deputy Cosgrave.

Deputy Linehan dealt with the question of the marriage rate. He ought to have known that, for a considerable portion of the last century as well as of the present century, our marriage rate was at an exceedingly low level. I suppose that has been the case since the famine period. It is due to historic as well as economic reasons, and it would be absolutely absurd to claim that Government action has effected any great change in the position. We read the other day that in Poland—a much poorer country than Ireland— half the people are under 20 years of age. There is no reason why the position here should not be the same as in Poland if our historical circumstances were the same and if we had not the peculiar conditions we have in farming households whereby the man in the house cannot get married until he has got all the other members of the family settled. If these difficulties, which are not attributable to Government action, were not present, the position here would be the same as in Poland, as it was at one stage.

The Deputy also informed us that it was extremely difficult to get marriage settlements. The Deputy cannot allege that old age pensioners are not better off than they were, since they are getting £800,000 more than they were getting under the last Government. One of the deliberate efforts of the present Administration has been to get old people to give up their holdings to their children. Deputies from rural areas have told me that, whereas 10 or 20 years ago it would have been almost impossible to get the old people to give up their holdings to members of their families, that is now taking place in practically every case. If there are special circumstances in Deputy Linehan's area, or in the cases which have come under his notice, they are certainly no indication of the general position in that regard.

Deputy Cosgrave approached the question of the Budget from an investing point of view. It is a view with which one can have a great deal of sympathy. He is an experienced man of affairs, the former head of a Government and, naturally, it is of importance that any statement made by him with regard to the national finances should be carefully examined. Presumably, his statements were made with an anxiety to help and with the intention of suggesting ways and means by which the general condition of our country and our people could be improved. However, I was rather surprised to see the Deputy take up the attitude that the Report of the Banking Commission was a kind of bible—an infallible promulgation of principles to which we should all adhere. The document is being examined and, in due course, will receive from Government Departments whatever consideration may be necessary. Ultimately, I suppose it will receive the consideration of the Government.

In respect of the question of housing for example, I do not think that the report received a very favourable reception in the country. It was felt that viewing our present housing policy entirely from the point of view of piling up a dead-weight debt was not treating the housing problem in a reasonable way. That is an aspect of the matter to which regard should be had, and the Banking Commission might have considered that they would be failing in their duty if they had not brought out matters of that kind. Nevertheless, the Deputy, who admits that more has been done under the present Administration in that regard than under his Administration, ought to have tried to be a little more constructive. He tells us that investors are apt to look at the price of houses here and link it up with the question of tariffs. In that way, he says, our policy of protecting our own industries discourages investment in such truly human and important enterprises as housing.

In arguing thus, I think the Deputy is really proceeding on political lines rather than on sound economic or human lines. He says that the cost of building materials seriously affects this question. The building materials, in so far as they are affected by tariffs would be, I would say, confined almost entirely to cement, and that tariff was necessary because, in order to get our own cement industry going, we found it absolutely necessary to take certain steps to protect the matter in that way. We are, at any rate, in the position that we have added to our national productivity by having a cement industry of the most modern kind here, as well as by giving the amount of employment that is given there and, even though we are paying a somewhat higher price, we are keeping a great deal of money in the country that would otherwise be going out. We are training these young men in the rural areas who cannot, under any changes one reasonably can foresee, find employment in normal agricultural operations, and giving them some chance of finding employment in their own country, thus ending the exodus Deputy Cosgrave bewails.

If we take up the attitude that we are to have no industries, and make no effort to improve our industrial arm or secure employment for our people, then we should pursue the thing to its logical conclusion and ask why, when a native Government was being set up, it ever took upon itself the responsibility of trying to develop its resources or protect its industries? Why did we not say to the British, as some of our friends would apparently have us say to them: "We would rather continue as we were; we would rather not have these powers, because we feel we could not use them in the common national interest, so, for goodness sake, do not give us the powers to regulate our own lives lest we should not be able to do it satisfactorily."

The Deputy talked of over-estimation. I find that in the year 1928-29, which cannot be said to be a year when there were special difficulties or anything else of that kind affecting the budgetary situation, the actual overestimation was £974,000 on a nett Budget of £24,662,000. There may be some reason for complaint that we have not been able to get rid of this over-estimation in a year like the present, when we do not know what changes may obtain before the year is finished, or what extraordinary changes, indeed, might possibly necessitate an entirely new Budget and an entirely new taxation policy. We can congratulate ourselves, I think, and say that our financial genius is at least equal to Deputy Cosgrave's when with an estimate of £1,000,000 for over-estimation, we can bring in a nett Budget of £33,000,000.

The Deputy, in pursuance of his policy of examining the national finances from the investing point of view, referred to the fact—and, of course, it has been heralded by his supporters in the Press as a magnificent achievement—that for many years he was able to carry on with an income-tax of 3/6. Now we have to pay 5/6, equal to the British level, but at least practically all the things that have been provided have been for the benefit of our own people. Until the present year defence expenditure was maintained at the very minimum, at the bone. The Army of 5,000 men could not possibly have been maintained at less, having regard to personnel, and nothing whatever to be done with regard to equipping them or making any preparations to deal with emergencies. The cost was reduced to the absolute minimum.

The credit of the country, according to the Deputy, is in the balance. The credit of the country is bound up with the balance of payments and is bound up with our balance of sterling assets. We have done our damnedest to make the country bankrupt, he says, but we have not succeeded. Surely the Deputy, even though he is so vitally impressed by the Banking Commission Report, which he seems to have studied so closely, must realise there are other things that have to be considered from the point of view of Government policy, and that a Government in a modern State has to have regard to the general welfare and interests of the people as well as by all means having regard, in a narrower way, to the investor's point of view and to the point of view which, I admit, is of the greatest importance, of paying your way and making ends meet, and not imposing unnecessary burdens or hardships unless there is simply no other way out.

Denmark has been frequently held up by the Opposition as a country which we could with advantage follow in the way they have built up their trade in agricultural products, in the way they have organised their agriculture and made the greatest possible use of the advantages which nature and their own intelligence have given them. When Denmark started on the policy of agricultural production on a standardised scale, she had very substantial assets abroad, and during the course of time she repatriated all these assets and put the money, presumably, into agriculture, which is very heavily capitalised in that country. At the present time her assets abroad are small compared with what they were half a century ago. In this country, in spite of the fact that there has been a big repatriation of capital and many millions have been brought home, taken from foreign investments to be put into Irish investments ever since the present Government came into office, we still have very substantial assets abroad. There is always the question—of course, it is a matter that the Minister for Finance can speak of with more authority than I—whether these moneys are going to be any safer in neighbouring countries than they would be here in the event of war or some great emergency.

The Deputy also laid down the principle that borrowing is indefensible to provide employment. Certain economists have held that doctrine, but it does not seem to be always agreed, even by Governments in countries which are highly organised from the capitalistic point of view. We see that economists like Mr. Keynes think that you are quite justified in borrowing to a very great extent to provide employment. His theory always has been that, in addition to those whom you put to work directly, you create a certain amount of following employment. For every man you put into work, you possibly put at least a second man into employment, which results as from the first man being employed. So I think that while economists of the most orthodox school can hold, and possibly justify, this danger that borrowing, to give employment, is indefensible, it is to my mind a rather strange theory, particularly in these days when we have borrowings on an enormous scale for the purpose of creating armaments and navies—and borrowings to the tune of hundreds of millions of pounds for that purpose, and in these circumstances it would be an extraordinary thing if we were not permitted to borrow for certain portions of our requirements for the purpose of giving employment.

Is there a better way?

I dealt with the fact that Denmark seems to have prospered in spite of the fact that her whole external assets have been reduced almost to vanishing point or a small proportion of what they used to be in order to build up her agriculture and enable her to adopt the most modern methods. It is extraordinary that the Opposition are so little mindful of their interest in Denmark and their anxiety that we should set up the Denmark standards here, that they have devoted the whole of their time to examining what the Government should or should not do for agriculture. Everything from which agriculture suffers, according to them, is attributable to the Government and, presumably, also every evil there could be remedied by Government action. Does any sensible farmer or any intelligent member of the community believe that that is so? Do they realise that the agricultural industry, like every other industry, has to be tackled from the technical point of view, from the point of view of improving our efficiency to meet our competitors in a market to which countries from all the globe are sending their products?

We used to hear a great deal about the English market. We hear a great deal about our failure to fill the quotas on that market. The Minister for Agriculture for days on end has had to listen to abuse in connection with every deficiency in agriculture that the Opposition could bring to light. But with the exception of derating, he did not hear a single constructive suggestion. No suggestion of any constructive kind has been made to show how agricultural production here could be increased or to show how we could improve the situation of the producer or turn out our stuff in greater quantity and at less cost. As the Minister for Agriculture pointed out, the Opposition should encourage our farmers rather than discourage them. If the farmers are given the idea that they are working at a job out of which they are not going to get any profit, that they are working in a country in which the Government is neglecting its duty to agriculture and intends to do nothing for it, that is bound to be bad for the farming community. It is the duty of the Opposition to give them encouragement, to tell them that there are things that the Government should do. It is the duty of the political Opposition to call attention to these things. But there are a great many other things that the farmers could do for themselves either individually or through their co-operative organisations. It would greatly improve the position of the Irish farmers if constructive suggestions were made by all Parties in the State who claim to speak for the rural community.

Every Deputy in this House knows that we have false and unreal standards in this country. Every Deputy will have to admit that those who are in a position to speak with special importance, eminence and knowledge in this country have referred to the fact that we have standards that are unreal and artificial and standards that are beyond our means. Very often in regard to our own individual affairs it would not be appropriate or right to say that any particular class was in the invidious position that it was doing special harm to the community by maintaining unreal standards. It is quite obvious if one section of the community can by very little trouble and without giving of its best to the community in general still occupy an artificial position and have more from the community than those really entitled to it on the basis of hard work, and without giving honest value in return, that you will naturally in that state of affairs have other sections of the community asking why they who are slaving from morning till night should not have the same consideration and why the return to them should not be as good. I claim if that section were to follow the example of the other section and depend on a policy of trying to extract from the public purse as much as they could by organised or political action, that would not be in the national interest and probably in the long run not in their own interest either.

The farming community is organised in a peculiar way. It does not lend itself to organisation in the same way as other industries. The farming community meet with losses from the climate and other conditions, but at any rate the farmer has complete and absolute possession of his own holding of land.

And the Land Commission threatening to acquire his holding!

He is going to be there, and he knows that his family will be there for generations after him. He can look forward to having his descendants occupy the place that his ancestors occupied. It is because of these things that the farming community are of such importance in the life of a nation. I submit that they would be led astray if they were to follow those artificial standards and accept the idea now floating around that there is some artificial reservoir of wealth from which they can get money. Does anybody think that there is only a tap to be turned on and a stream of wealth will flow from some artificial reservoir? The farmers know that the country is depending on them. Each Party should emphasise that in the national councils. When money is being spent somebody will have to provide it, and the farmers know that in the long run the agricultural industry, which is our greatest source of wealth, will have to pay the lion's share.

The farmers' representatives are quite right to criticise national expenditure and to follow it closely. But I hope they will not follow a will-o'-the-wisp. Farmers know that new services cannot be organised without expenditure falling on the community, and incidentally on the farmers themselves. I believe that all Parties in the House should make a united effort to improve conditions in agriculture. I believe the Government could consider what further steps can be taken. The Minister for Agriculture has mentioned that that matter is under consideration. We know that the whole problem is under examination by the Agricultural Commission——

Oh Lord!

I maintain that if we are to meet our competitors in those markets about which we heard a great deal for many years—those markets to which all reference was painfully absent in this debate—it will not be sufficient to tell me that I should introduce rural text books into the school syllabus or give agricultural lectures or send out instructors who will teach agricultural processes to the children. Something is far more necessary than that if rural production is to be kept up to the standard, if that portion of our wealth which we expect to get from the land is going to be maintained, and if agriculture is going to do its share in maintaining that better standard of living and better conditions generally which the people on the land expect quite as much as other sections of the community.

We are told that there is a dislike of work among the young men in the country. That is a problem which the House ought to consider, and consider very seriously. If it is a fact that the young men are unwilling to work, if there is a general feeling that it is better to live in idleness, then I say it is not Governmental action altogether— it may be effective in certain directions —that is going to change either that habit of mind or the habit of mind which would seek to put an entirely false and unreal standard upon agriculture in this country. You have got to tackle it from the psychological point of view. You have got to educate public opinion, and, while we have our say on occasions of this kind on financial and economic matters, we have also to consider what the future of our country is going to be, what the attitude of our young people is going to be. It is not, as has been said in another direction, by debates or speeches or Press articles that we can get our young people to give of their best to the country, and to have that spirit of patriotism and self-sacrifice and anxiety to help their country and to help their people which has made the youth of other countries attain such a splendid place for their nations in the world. We have got to educate them ourselves. We have got to encourage them, and we have got to give them good example.

I feel very timid in speaking in this House, especially on this occasion when I am in the unenviable position of having to follow the learned Minister for Education. I am afraid that any remarks which I have to make will not help to cheer the Minister for Finance because, as a farmer, like all the other farmers in the State, I have been deprived of a sense of humour. What I have to say has probably been said by other speakers, but I believe it will bear repetition. The oftener attention is called to the despair and distress to which the farmers of this State have been reduced the better. We had hoped to get some relief under this Budget. We were promised a reduction of £2,000,000 and complete derating of agricultural land, but what we find is an increase in the Budget, and I believe the net result will be to make the rich poor and the poor poorer.

There are just a few points which I want to put before the fearless Minister for Finance in connection with my own country, where the people have consistently supported the Taoiseach for a number of years, and carried him on their shoulders from Loop Head to New Quay. In that particular area in West Clare, there is at the present time a deadly disease known as fluke, which has caused the loss of a large number of cattle and sheep. In addition, many of them have died for want of food, because the owners could not afford to buy it. I should like the Minister to take a particular note of that.

Would not that be a question for the Minister for Agriculture?

Mr. Burke

Yes, but the Minister for Agriculture has to go to the Minister for Finance——

The debate on the Estimate for Agriculture extended over five days and afforded ample opportunity for ventilating all those matters.

Mr. Burke

I quite agree and, if I may say so without being out of order, the debate on the Minister's Estimate last night showed the growing opposition to the agricultural policy of the Government. Only a small number were in favour of the policy of the Minister for Agriculture towards the farmers. In East Clare, we have a chain of creameries which are badly financed at the present time due to the scarcity of milk.

The Deputy must get away from agricultural matters.

Mr. Burke

I am trying to speak on financial matters.

The Deputy has a simple criterion. On what Minister devolves the responsibility for remedying the difficulties referred to? On the Minister for Agriculture rests the responsibility, if there is any.

Mr. Burke

I may be out of order, and I apologise.

The Deputy is out of order.

Mr. Burke

My understanding was that the Minister for Finance governed the Government.

In other words, that everything is in order, and the debate on all the Estimates might be repeated?

Mr. Burke

I may be in order in stating that people in those areas are very badly in need of help of some sort. The Minister for Finance believes in a policy of borrowing. As he believes in a policy of borrowing, it is only reasonable to suppose that he believes in a policy of lending. I believe the only remedy for those people is to provide them with cheap loans and to derate agricultural land. At the present time it is no use for a farmer to approach a bank. He would not be allowed inside the door. As a matter of fact, I think he would be tried under the Treason Act for approaching the door of a bank. His only hope is to appeal to the Minister for Finance for some assistance.

He is raiding the banks too.

Mr. Burke

I believe there are 125,000 people in the country unable to pay their way at the present time. In my own county a great many people are unable to pay their annuities and rates, and if the shopkeepers' accounts were available they would make very alarming reading. The Clare County Council at their last meeting passed a unanimous resolution asking the Government for a moratorium in respect of annuities. A two-thirds majority of them are supporters of the Government, and have supported it for a number of years, but they are now beginning to realise that the Government must do something for those people who are unable to pay their way.

The Minister for Education suggested that there had been a change of front on this side of the House in connection with the economic war. We always advocated a settlement of the economic war, and are very proud that it has been settled. I suggest that the change took place on the other side of the House—on the Government Benches. They did exactly as we advised them to do. They settled the economic war. We quite well remember the occasion last year when they came back and said that they had restored the British market. I would ask the Minister to do something for the people of Clare who have nothing to sell and who have no means of paying their way. They are anxious to retain the homes for which their fathers fought and defeated the British in this country; they are just as anxious as were their forefathers to retain their homes for their children, but at present their children are leaving the country.

The Minister for Education told us that the farmer hopes to see his son or daughter occupying the homestead. I am quite well aware of the fact that a number of people in my county have not a single number of the family left at home. If that state of affairs is allowed to continue there will be disastrous results. We may be told that we cannot get money to relieve the farmers. It is rather strange that we could get millions to pay a debt to the ancient enemy; we could get millions to form a colossal army in this little State; we could get hundreds of thousands for tourist development, but we can get nothing for the national industry, agriculture.

A Deputy

What about the £10,000,000 for it?

Mr. Burke

I would ask the Minister to do something to help the farmers, especially the farmers in that very distressed area in Clare.

In the fairly considerable experience which I have had of this House I have rarely heard of a more cheerless prospect than that held out to us in the Minister's statement yesterday. Indeed, the gloom of that statement has been more or less reflected in this debate. I think only a confirmed optimist could get much comfort either from the opening statement in this debate or the contributions which have followed that statement. As far as we, in this part of the House are concerned, the fact that strikes us most is the complete absence from the Minister's Budget statement of any hope of social progress in the coming year. The door seems to be definitely closed and barred against any extension whatever of social services. There is not any hope, judging by the statements made, of a remedy in the very many defects that exist in the social measures that have been passed. Widows' and orphans' pensions give an example, on the non-contributory side, of many such defects. But we must defer any hope at least in the coming year—and if one refers to the concluding paragraph of the Minister's statement even to a more distant date than the coming year—of getting any improvement in that measure or any advance in the rather miserable provisions afforded under it.

Unemployment assistance is exactly in the same position. There are few members of this House who are not aware of the fact that for the last 12 months more rigorous and more rigid means tests have been applied in connection with unemployment assistance than formerly. While the Minister is right in saying that the total amount expended has increased—that is, of course, because additional people have become unemployed—in a great many cases the amounts paid have been considerably reduced. I think that is a very disturbing and alarming feature. It would be bad enough if the story ended there, but the story goes very much further. Certainly, one of the most distressing features of the Budget is that the three notable economies made in its provisions are to be made at the expense of such people. A sum of £100,000 is to be saved on the Office of Public Works. In the last couple of years there was evidence of a good deal of increased activity in that Department. The wretched, miserable, disease-ridden old school-houses we have in many parts of the country were, to some small extent, beginning to disappear. I think it is not an unfair presumption that a good deal of that work will be held up during the coming year and that there will be less employment in that respect. That employment, I suggest, is of more value than employment on relief schemes because it affords a greater prospect of fairly constant employment.

A number of places in the country were taken over following the Agreement in connection with the ports. I have one particular case in mind, Bere Island, where a fair number of people received, under the British Government; fairly steady employment. The reduction indicated in the Office of Public Works Estimate in the Minister's statement yesterday would seem to me to indicate that there is less hope of continuing work in places like that than one would naturally expect. A sum of £200,000 is to be saved at the expense of the unemployed or the partly employed in this country. The prospect which that holds out for the homes of such people is a very serious one. It will mean in their case, less food, less clothing and less nourishment for the children, nourishment that these children should receive if they are to become healthy citizens of the future.

I view that prospect, at a time when things are bad enough, as indicating a situation that is becoming very serious. I am inclined to say, and I hope it is not considered an exaggerated view, that the working people are being reduced every day in this country to a state of beggary, and that that is going to be intensified under the principal economies announced in this Budget statement. In former years it was stated in this House by the Minister that, wherever economies should be effected, they should not be effected at the expense of the poor. I suggest to the Minister that that is what is happening and what will happen in the coming 12 months. Another aspect of the case is even still more serious from the viewpoint of the workers in the country, and from the point of view of their share in the employment afforded under local authorities. An additional £150,000 is taken from the Road Fund for the purpose of assisting the Central Exchequer. That will mean a considerable decrease in the amount of employment provided. It will mean that local authorities, freed in some respects from the irritating regulations with regard to the rotation of labour and other such accompanying conditions, will be able to do less in that respect. Altogether, the position is a very sad and disappointing one.

New taxes have been imposed, and I think it can be said that they, in any case, are preferable to taxes on food. We have accepted the situation that is involved in taxation in the manner prescribed by the Minister rather than a situation that would involve taxes on food, because in addition to uncertain and irregular employment on small and inadequate wages, high living costs have, as has been pointed out here very frequently, made very serious inroads into the incomes of working people and poor people. Certainly any method of raising money other than increasing such costs is preferable to us, and I think, in the end, to the people of the country as a whole. The need for raising a great deal of this money arises from a war situation. This is not the place to discuss the defence policy of the Government. The viewpoint of the members of this Party in that connection has been already expressed. Time will show what would be the best policy in that connection. Generally speaking, this is not the occasion to discuss it, but it does seem strange that in all countries and at all times, in a war situation or in a threatened war situation, there seems to be much less difficulty in finding money for services of that kind than there is in finding money for ordinary services. Money has at all times and in all countries been readily found for emergencies of that kind, in very striking contrast to the reluctance to find money for the maintenance of human beings in peaceful avocations in their own country.

There is one statement of the Minister for Education to which I should like to refer. I do not know if the Minister intended to suggest that there was a situation developing in this country in which people were becoming more reluctant to work. Perhaps the Minister only referred to that statement having been made by others. It is a statement that one hears occasionally. We had a somewhat similar statement here a week or two ago when the people were described as "loungers" and "scroungers." I protest against that statement and that viewpoint. I maintain that that viewpoint, and the statement that emerges from it, are not accurate or honest as far as the people of this country are concerned. Eighty thousand people have left the country to get a living elsewhere, and I think that decision of theirs affords evidence that the people are willing to work. Anybody who has knowledge, and I think most members of the House have knowledge, of the eagerness with which the people look for every opportunity of working even for small and uncertain periods, found very little evidence of that in this part of the country; and I think it is very regrettable that people should avoid facing up to the unhappy position that we find in the country at present by raising a smoke-screen of that kind, which is both unfair and unjust, and entirely misrepresents the attitude of the people who are looking for work.

The position in this country with regard to unemployment is likely to be intensified very considerably in the near future. We cannot blind ourselves to the fact that a certain measure which is going through the British House of Commons at present is bound to have a very considerable effect upon us. If, as a result of that measure, our people in another country find themselves liable for service in the army of that country, then I think very many hundreds of them will turn their thoughts and their footsteps towards this country. If they are to come to this country in the next few months, and to find that there is less money for employment, less prospect of work, and less hope of their getting even a precarious, uncertain living here, the position here is going to be very much worse than it is.

The Minister has, of course, this year certain difficulties. The uncertainty of the world position and the difficulties that Governments in all European countries find themselves in, have, of course, some effect on the position here, and nobody wants to make the Minister's difficulties—which are, after all, the difficulties of the country—any greater because of that position. But, certainly, this Budget of 1939,16 years after this State was established, with its provisions tending to curtail the opportunities for living in the country and for getting employment, is anything but a pleasant one, and I think it would be a mistake if Deputies, whose first responsibility is to people of that kind, were not in a position to express their opinion on that particular matter. These are the aspects of the Minister's statement and of the Budget on which I want to express my opinion. I sincerely hope that the extremely doleful and cheerless prophecies that darken the end of the Minister's statement will not be fulfilled, and that a position that looks extremely bad at present may be lightened even to some small degree before the end of the financial year.

All the statements made on this Budget can be boiled down into the statement made by Deputy Linehan. He alluded to Deputy Childers' request that politics should be kept out of the Budget debate, and said that only for politics and the political aspect of this, we could all admit that the Minister was entirely justified in his Budget. That was Deputy Linehan's statement, that only for politics he and the other Deputies on that side were prepared to admit that the Budget was absolutely justified.

Are you looking over here?

I am looking at Deputy Gorey. I always find a certain amount of amusement in looking at Deputy Gorey. Deputy Gorey is the most amusing person in the House and I listen to him very patiently. But when a Deputy, after that admission, spent one and a half hours telling us what was wrong with the Budget there must be something wrong with the Opposition. Both Deputy Linehan and Deputy O'Higgins alluded to our statements about the reduction we would make in the Civil Service when we came into office. We did make a reduction of £280,000 in civil servants' salaries, but we had to make it with the full force of the Fine Gael and Labour Deputies arrayed against us.

It was too bad.

It was too bad entirely. I have been looking through the speeches made on that occasion and it is most amusing to read what Deputy O'Higgins had to say on the Second Stage of the Public Economies Bill when one considers his speech this evening. We had the position that the Opposition took the stand that the salaries of men who were absolutely protected against any interference should not be touched, no matter what the need of the country in general was. That was the attitude taken up by the Opposition when, as they stated at the time, the farmers were in want and misery—that civil servants should still enjoy their complete salaries—and they went into the Lobby and voted on that principle when we endeavoured to save £280,000 by economies in the Civil Service. Deputies opposite should also remember that only about 12 months ago they forced a general election on this country because they wanted to increase the salaries of civil servants despite the wants of the country and the position in which they stated the country was.

They remember all about it and what was said.

You have very good reason to remember it.

Who helped you to win that election? Tell us about the ex-Unionists.

The Fine Gael Party are now complaining of overtaxation. I remember a statement they issued 12 months ago telling people that they would get pensions at 65, that they would give complete derating to the farmers, that they would guarantee 5d. a gallon for milk, that they would give family allowances, and that they would wipe out the land annuities altogether. Add all these to the Budget and see how much taxation they would be imposing. I wonder had they any intention of keeping those promises. Anyone listening to Deputy Cosgrave this evening would definitely come to the conclusion that they had not the slightest intention of keeping them. We are entitled to ask Deputies opposite which of the social services they are prepared to get rid of. They are voting for each one of them here in the House. They voted for the £800,000 extra that they lopped off from the old age pensioners when they were in office. They voted for the widows' and orphans' pensions which cost, roughly, £500,000, and they voted for unemployment assistance, for the relief schemes, and for every other item that is here of £5,500,000 in social services, which they neglected when they were in office, at a time when the country, according to themselves, was far better off than it is now.

That was the position. Take even one item alone, the £280,000 that we endeavoured to save from the civil servants. That would clear the entire loan charges or the entire contributions to local authorities in respect of loan charges for housing. Which of the two bodies could best afford to lost it? Is it the well protected civil servants or the unfortunate men down the country living in a one-roomed cottage?

Even though a good many of them had less than 50/- a week.

Even the man with £1,300 a year was protected, and very carefully protected.

What about the man with £15,000?

Even including the judges; they were protected also.

It is a good job that the Deputy is not one.

I am afraid that the jury over there are getting very obstreperous. That is one item, however, and from 1922 to 1932, while Cumann na nGaedheal were over here on these benches, they paid the salaries to the civil servants but they did not build one house for the agricultural labourer or the working man in this country. Take the length and breadth of it, and show us one agricultural labourers' cottages scheme or one local government building scheme that was undertaken while they were in office. Just show us one scheme. But no. While they were in office no encouragement was given to the agricultural labourer, and if he wanted to get married he had no house except he put up a tent by the fence, because that was the only encouragement that was held out towards the increased marriages of which Deputy Linehan spoke. That was the position from 1922 to 1932. In fact you might say it was the position from 1914, when the European War started. In all that period not one agricultural labourer's cottage was built in this country, in the whole length and breadth of the country, and now the people over there complain, even after supporting the housing scheme in this House, because the income-tax fellow has to pay an extra "bob" towards seeing that these housing schemes and labourers' cottages schemes are still continued. What is the complaint about? I defy any Deputy over there to stand up here and mention one single scheme that was brought in by Cumann na nGaedheal under which agricultural labourers' cottages could be built. There was not one. That was good enough for the agricultural labourers and for the ordinary poor man and working man in this country. So long as the income-tax was kept down and the civil servants were protected and the aristocrats were all right, that was all Cumann na nGaedheal cared about.

The administration of the Cumann na nGaedheal Government is not under examination now, nor should it be.

I am not discussing it, Sir.

The Chair has heard nothing else for the last ten minutes.

Deputies can take any other item here with regard to social services and examine it. Let us have one of these social services—any one of them—that the Opposition wants to get rid of now. There is a large number of them that they almost certainly admit they would be very anxious to get rid of, but they have not the pluck to get up here and mention them. They dare not do it. They dare not mention one of these schemes for the providing of social services for the ordinary working people of this country which were neglected by them when they were in office, and if the Minister for Finance has had to increase, and largely increase, his Budget over and above the Budgets brought in by Cumann na nGaedheal—and various comparisons have been made between them here to-day—you can clap against one portion of it, at any rate, the £5,500,000 extra for social services.

Deputy Cogan was very loud in his statements to-day to the effect that nothing was done for the farming community. I wonder would he go down to the County Wicklow, which he represents here, and tell the farmers there that the Milk and Dairies Act, which provided a decent price here in Dublin for the Wicklow farmers for their new milk, was no good to the farmers there? Will he go down and tell them that?

What about the milk strike?

A few milk strikes occurred in Deputy Cosgrave's time, but we did not see that Bill coming along. Deputy Cogan made allusions to the position in regard to the table here from the Minister for Finance. I do not accept all the items in the table as true. Some items in it are true. It is true in patches, but that is all. When, however, Deputies over there are speaking about derating, they must not forget the halving of the annuities. I took the 50 per cent. reduction in the annuities, in preference to derating, and I considered that I was making a very good bargain for the agricultural community in getting £2,200,000 off their annuities.

So the Deputy is satisfied that he got them off?

We got what it would have been impossible to get if Deputy Giles and others over there got their way.

It cost you a good many millions to get them.

Yes, it did, but it would have cost far less if Deputy Giles had done his duty to his country. The economic war would have lasted only about three months instead of being a four years' war.

The Deputy must get down to the matter before the House and cease discussing the economic war.

I am only discussing——

The Deputy is not in order in many of his remarks.

Deputies can take the item that the Minister has here in regard to the beet sugar industry. In connection with those items of beet and wheat provision has been made here for a home market for the agricultural community that they could not otherwise get—a home market that was not open to them previously, and a home market which, in my opinion, was well worth protecting and catering for.

Why has agricultural employment fallen by 43,000 in the past three years?

Why is it that during the period Deputy Mulcahy was here as Minister for Local Government, nobody had any business registering at a labour exchange for employment unless he was an ex-member of the National Army? Because he would get no work.

Is that all that can be said about the £43,000?

If Deputy Mulcahy will give me the chance, some day I will bring up the order on that matter which he sent down to the Cork County Council, and I will read it for his edification lest he may have forgotten it— that first preference in all employment, road work and otherwise, was to be given to ex-members of the National Army. The man with five children, unemployed, was to remain unemployed so long as there was an ex-member of the National Army, with no family at all, unemployed. The single man was to get employment first, and the married fellows could take their turn. That was the position during Deputy Mulcahy's term, so that I do not think he should talk much about unemployment.

I am talking about 43,000 people fewer employed in agriculture.

Deputy Corry is in possession and must be allowed to make his own speech.

We have a line of policy advocated here by Deputy Dillon, the shadow Minister for Agriculture. I think, however, he was knocked out completely yesterday by Deputy Belton and I congratulate Deputy Belton on wiping the floor with him for once.

I do not remember the incident.

He made Deputy Dillon a back-bencher in one half-hour when he drove him to the back benches. He is no longer the shadow Minister for Agriculture—he is all a shadow. If, however, we are to adopt the policy outlined by Deputy Dillon, the farmers will be deprived of the £1,000,000 odd which they got for beet last year, and of the £2,000,000 odd which they got for wheat last year, and made totally dependent on whatever they will get across the water for their agricultural produce. Therefore, I say that the only hope, so far as the agricultural community are concerned, is, firstly, to protect the home market, and secondly, to see that they get an economic price for their produce in it.

That is very sound, if it can be carried out.

I do not agree for one moment that the price of beet for this season is economic.

You squeal when you are pinched.

I am rather unlike other Deputies. The Minister for Local Government recently, when making the concluding statement on his Estimate, said that every Deputy, except Deputy Corry, had praised the manner in which things in his Department were carried out. All the fault which Deputies have to find with administration and everything else is kept in their pockets or in their boots—their tongues are silent about it, anyway— for fear they would offend a civil servant. If they want to know the reason for my attitude, I have no scruple in giving it to them. The complaints on which I have heard Deputy Hickey and others very vocal down on local bodies, and the complaints which Deputy Hickey should have voiced here instead of Deputy Corry, were not voiced by him.

I never made the statements the Deputy attributes to me. I have always paid a tribute to the civil servants whom I have met in the Departments.

Particularly the civil servant who put the £3,800 for a hospital on you.

I never made any such statement about any civil servant, and I think the Deputy should withdraw that remark.

I should like to be very fair to the Deputy. I will withdraw the statement until such time as I bring into the House the Cork Examiner report of it.

Instead of the Irish Press, for once in your life.

Deputies might settle that matter elsewhere.

I ask Deputy Corry to withdraw his statement, because it is not true.

I am withdrawing—until.

The Chair does not know what the Deputy is referring to, but local matters should be settled locally.

Unfortunately, it was worse than a local matter; it was a national matter.

It is not relevant.

I agree, Sir. If we are to look at the other items set out on this table, we must realise that agriculture undoubtedly got enormous benefits from the present Government. We did not thank the Government for the £2,500,000 reduction in land annuities and we do not think that any Government is entitled to thanks, because the agricultural community had to fight a battle for it and the agricultural community got very little help from any other section in fighting that battle. I say that here openly.

The O'Neills and the Carpenters did not do much for you.

Even though we had to drive some of the Deputies opposite into the front trench.

The front trenches did not see you, anyhow.

That was the beauty of it. We had to do the scrapping from 1918 to 1923, and it was your turn then.

What did you do? Did the Deputy say "the running"?

We saw Deputy Gorey's back oftener than his face. I make no apology whatever with regard to that sum of £2,200,000 because the agricultural community were fully and absolutely entitled to it. On the other hand, the policy upon which this Government set out, of providing markets here at home so far as they could for the agricultural community is being very successfully carried out and it is, after all, the only final hope of the agricultural community.

If the threatened European War breaks out, if the European Powers decide that they are going to starve John Bull out, and if they decide to do it effectively by sending a good fleet of submarines and aeroplanes to sink every ship going into Britain with food, the home market will be the only market you will have.

The Deputy will soon have Hitler looking for him. He would be a useful man.

A useful man always. Undoubtedly, the protection of our home market and the preservation of that market is one item to which we will have to give greater and fuller attention. I think the Government, or whoever were responsible for setting up the arbitration board which dealt with the price of beet this year were very ill-advised from the point of view of the interests of the community in general.

The matter might have been discussed on the Vote for Agriculture.

My allusion to it arises from the item on Table 8, in which the Minister states that a benefit to the extent of £1,050,000 is being conferred on the farmer under that heading this year. I do not wish to go further into these items, but Deputy Murphy—and other Deputies also—made mention of the reduction in the Vote for Public Works and Buildings. Now, I think it was last year, my Party decided to send me to college—I allude to the Committee on Public Accounts. Deputy Linehan will remember that for several days we had to call particular attention to the fact that that particular Vote was grossly overestimated.

Public Accounts will be investigated on a motion made. It is not usual to discuss in the Dáil what happens at meetings of that committee.

The Accounts have been published, a Chinn Comhairle.

£100,000 for the Red Embassy in Madrid.

The money for the gates for the Phoenix Park, and other things of that description.

Yet they were able to increase their salaries.

Why did you not vote against the Estimate?

I spoke against the matter here. Deputy Linehan took up an hour and a half of the time of this House this evening, and this is what he said.

The Deputy may not repeat the speech.

We also had a statement from Deputy Linehan on the stamp duties. I would seriously suggest to the Deputy that the Incorporated Law Society should change their charges and show a little more justice, and a little less of the shark.

If the Deputy cannot discuss the Vote he will have to resume his seat.

Deputy Linehan called particular attention here to the loss in stamp duty and gave reasons for it— the poverty of the agricultural community, and that people were not taking out administration.

Not at all. Stamp duty does not apply to administration.

The real reason why there is not so much stamp duty paid lies with the Law Society's charges for the little work they have to do.

That matter is not relevant.

The Chair is ruling too much.

Deputies on the opposite side of the House have no manners.

It is a good job that the Deputy is able for them.

Generally speaking, this Budget is a good Budget, inasmuch as the taxes that are put on are levied on those who are best able to bear them.

And there were no jokes.

My only regret is that income tax is not further increased. A man with an income can far better afford to pay an extra sixpence in the £1 than the unfortunate agricultural labourer down in the country or the man on the dole can afford to pay an extra halfpenny an ounce on his tobacco.

Did the Deputy vote for the tobacco tax?

I am glad to see, also, that the supertax has been increased.

I am glad to see that the Deputy is so self-sacrificing.

Deputy Belton is taking it very well.

I consider that this is an extremely good Budget. If the money has to be found, there are no persons who are better able to bear it than those who have incomes on which they can pay income-tax. As far as the petrol tax is concerned, I see that it will undoubtedly be an imposition on the farming community, for the simple reason that a large portion of their agricultural produce to-day must be borne by lorries, owing to the fact that their roads are now impassable for ordinary horse traffic; and therefore, we should not look on this Budget as a complete relief to the farming community. There is no use in the Minister pretending here that the farming community is not going to be hit. Every load of artificial manure and every lorry will carry a share of this Budget tax out of the farmer's pocket.

Now the Deputy is tumbling to it.

These are facts, and facts that cannot be contradicted.

The Deputy is contradicting himself.

I do not see Deputy Keating looking any happier to-day than when he was looking for licences.

I was looking for them in vain.

The Deputy knows that he got a fair crack of the whip. I regret that in this Budget there is no provision to take the burden of paying for main roads off the farmers' shoulders. That is another burden which could very well be borne by the motor user. It is unfair and unjust that that burden of main roads and trunk roads should still be borne by the agricultural community, and in my opinion it is one of the items which will have to be tackled sooner or later, and the sooner the better. The agricultural community at present has enough to bear already.

That is another name for derating.

Deputy Belton is painful at times. However, I do not wish to delay the House further.

Progress reported.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until Friday, 12th May, at 10.30 a.m.
Top
Share