On this section, I wish to make a few remarks. On the last occasion when a Bill of this kind was before the House we heard with surprise general unanimity amongst all Parties. But I had my suspicions and I knew the reasons why there was unanimity in the matter of the Hospitals Sweep. Now before this section goes through, and before the Bill passes, I want to make an appeal to the Minister. That is, that he makes a suggestion to the directors of the Hospitals Trust that where they have to employ a person they will first consider before making the appointment that two persons out of the one family should not be employed while numbers of families have no one in receipt of earnings. I have knowledge that in some cases in connection with the sweep, people not in need of employment are employed and in some cases too, large sums of money are being paid by the Hospitals Trust to two members of the same family——
Public Hospitals (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill, 1939—Committee Stage.
In that matter the Minister has no control.
Before I agree to support this Bill, I want to get some assurance on this matter, and I want to have ventilated here that when people are being disemployed by the Hospitals Trust, the first to go will not be those in receipt of small wages; and that where there are two persons of the one family employed by the Hospitals Trust, one of these will be disemployed instead of the person who is in receipt of the small wage of £2 per week being disemployed first. There are numbers of people in the Hospitals Trust who are only working for pin money. Surely to goodness these people should be the first to be disemployed. There are Deputies on both sides of this House earning directly or indirectly money from the Hospitals Sweep, and it is for that reason that I wish to make my protest here in connection with this Bill. We have civil servants, men in receipt of good salaries, and yet their wives are employed in the Hospitals Sweep, and I do not think that is right——
The Minister has no control over the staff of the Hospitals Trust.
Have we not a right to discuss it?
The Deputy has no right to ask the Minister even to make representations.
I am making the suggestion that the Minister should make representations to the Hospitals Trust, Limited, and that he should do that before he gets the support of this House. I am aware that, owing to the war, there will be quite a large number of people unemployed amongst those who up to the present have been engaged on these sweeps. When that company is deciding who should be disemployed, they should retain in employment those who have no other means of livelihood; those whose husbands are in good employment should be the first to be disemployed. I am sure the Minister will consider that a very reasonable request, and I submit he would be quite in order, before asking support from the House for this Bill, to make representations of the kind I have suggested to the Hospitals Trust people, and if possible get them to retain in employment those who are mostly in need of employment.
Mr. Boland
I have no say in that matter at all, but I am quite sure that the Hospitals Trust Company will take these matters into consideration. I am sure one effect of this Bill will be to prevent unemployment. At least that would be one incidental resulting from the Bill. But if I were to make such a request, it would look like making it I a condition that I should be given some say in the securing of employment under the Hospitals Trust Company. I am sure myself that the directors of the Hospitals Trust will give very careful consideration to this matter.
Mr. Brennan
Before we pass from Section 3——
We have got away from Section 3.
Mr. Brennan
I would just on this point like to ask the Minister a question. In the course of his speech he stated there was one sweep in contemplation at the moment. I understood from the Minister's statement that they would have to make application for the holding of any further sweep. I can read that into Section 3, which says: "Whenever... the society desires to hold a sweepstake under the Principal Act... the society may appoint a sweepstake committee ..." and so on. They shall do certain things. But it does not say that they shall apply for permission to hold a further sweep.
Mr. Boland
The point is that the Minister for Justice must approve of the scheme. In that way they must have consent for holding the sweep.
Does the Minister mean a general scheme?
Mr. Boland
It is the same as the present Hospitals Sweep. A scheme for each sweep has be submitted to the Minister for Justice. The same will obtain in the case of any permission for a sweepstake for the Red Cross.
Mr. Brennan
Supposing these people put up a scheme, and the Minister approves, and in six months' time they put up another scheme, where is the Minister then? Will he disapprove of the scheme on the ground that they should not hold it, or will he approve of a similar scheme?
Will the Minister say whether his general attitude towards this scheme is mainly because of the danger of the existing sweepstakes not proving a success and that it was expected that a Bill such as this might meet with a wider measure of support and that it would, in addition, enable some assistance to be given not only to the Irish Red Cross, but to other Red Cross Societies in other countries at present called upon to expend very considerable sums of money in relieving distress and hardship and in providing attendance for the sick?
Mr. Boland
The main reason for this Bill is in order to provide funds for the Bed Cross but one of the factors, I am sure too, will be the keeping on of the staff, as the Hospitals Sweep people perhaps anticipate that there would be a falling-off of their sweeps because of the war. I do not know whether or not this sweep will help them in that matter. I do not know whether that is the intention or not but at least one of the directors came to me and expressed the opinion that it would enable them to keep on the staff in addition to providing funds for the Red Cross. As to the effect of this Bill on the Hospitals Sweep itself I do not know what their opinion is on that.
But was not the initiative taken by the Red Cross Society?
Mr. Boland
Yes, the Irish Red Cross Society asked the Hospitals Trust people to promote a sweep in order to raise funds for the Society. Whether they believe that that will help the main sweep or not is a matter for them.
Mr. Brennan
The Minister has not answered the points raised by me.
Mr. Boland
Each sweep has to get the formal sanction of the Minister. Whether the conditions are the same as the previous one or not each has to be submitted and must get formal sanction from the Minister.
Mr. Brennan
Does the Minister think that is safeguard enough?
Mr. Boland
Yes, the Minister can refuse sanction to a sweep and without sanction it cannot go on. I think that is safeguard enough.
On Section 7 I would like to suggest that in view of the dual purpose which this Bill will achieve, that is the provision of funds for the Red Cross International Society and to provide employment for a number of people and so save them from the dangers of unemployment, that the Minister would consider eliminating the section providing for taxing these moneys and so leave more money available for the purposes for which this Bill has been introduced.
Mr. Boland
I think the Deputy ought not press that point. One must get money somewhere.
But the Minister is surely anticipating this particular money.
Mr. Boland
No.
He is prepared to take it from the rich, and if he does not get enough from the rich, then from the poor; and if not from them, from somebody else.