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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 1 Dec 1939

Vol. 78 No. 6

Finance (No. 2) Bill, 1939—Report and Final Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be received for Final Consideration."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 53; Níl, 32.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Brennan, Martin.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Friel, John.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hogan, Daniel.
  • Kelly, James P.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Loughman, Francis.
  • McCann, John.
  • McDevitt, Henry A.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Morrissey, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Munnelly, John.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Loghlen, Peter J.
  • O'Reily, Matthew.
  • O'Rourke, Daniel.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Rice, Brigid M.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Victory, James.
  • Walsh, Laurence J.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Conn.

Níl

  • Bennett, George C.
  • Brasier, Brooke.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Davin, William.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry M.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Gorey, Denis J.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Hughes, James.
  • Keating, John.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McGovern, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Mongan, Joseph W.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Sullivan, John.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Redmond, Bridget M.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
Tellers:— Tá: Deputies Smith and S. Brady; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Bennett.
Question declared carried.
Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

The discussion of this Finance Bill has ranged over a great variety of subjects. Some of the Government spokesmen have brought under review the policy of the Government for the last eight years. One of the reasons that is urged why additional taxation should be put upon sugar, beer, spirits, tobacco, and income-tax payers is that Government policy has made available for the butter industry in this country a sum of £5,000,000; for wheat, £9.8 millions; for beet, £6.2 millions; and the reservation of the home market for bacon is estimated to be worth £6.1 millions; making in all available for agriculture, according to the Head of the Government, a sum of £27.1 millions over the last eight years, which is very close upon an average of £3,500,000 a year. Presumably, the fact that the previous Government had taken steps to deal with the bacon situation in 1931 had escaped his memory. However, we are left with this situation: that it is claimed for Government policy that the agricultural industry has been benefited to the extent of £3,500,000 per year, and that they have secured the home market entirely for the farmers.

In the course of the case that the Prime Minister made in support of the Budget he stated that when the Government came into office they found that there was imported into this country food, clothing, drink and other items totalling £17,500,000. He led his listeners to believe that all these commodities were capable of being produced in this country, that the policy of the Government had been directed towards that end, and that, in fact, they had succeeded in relieving the country of practically all that £17,500,000. Again, on looking up the items which comprised that £17,500,000, we find amongst them tea valued at over £2,000,000, as well as hops and other items. However, as we have said on other occasions, it is just as well not to expose too severely the Government's incapacity for dealing with figures, or in fact with a balance sheet of any sort or kind.

That is a delicate topic for the Deputy.

However delicate a topic it is, it is so appalling for both the Minister and his Leader that they cannot bear any reference to figures of any sort or kind.

Leave the balance sheet alone if you are wise.

I am wise enough to take on the Minister plus his Prime Minister, plus all his other colleagues, one after the other at any time or in any place.

Take on the balance sheet.

Yes, on the balance sheet. It is obvious from these retorts and from the heat displayed by the Minister and the incapacity shown by the Minister that he cannot bear mention of these things. The home market has been secured by the Minister and his chief. Let us see what the value of it is. What is meant by the home market? In the first place, there is meant the consumption of agricultural products on the farms and the products sold in the markets for consumption in the country. Perhaps the worst year experienced in the whole period of the depression was the year 1931. The consumption of agricultural products both on the farms and in the homes of the other people in this country during that year amounted to £30,266,000. Not until 1937-38 was that sum exceeded, if we except a sum of probably £100,000 in 1936-37. In 1937-38 the value of the home market to the agricultural industry exceeded that for 1931 by £2,000,000.

That is the sum total of all the advantages, of the £3,500,000 a year which the Government claim they have made available for the agricultural industry over these eight years compared with 1931; in respect of which the farmers got more than they got in 1931. What did it cost the farmers and the people to provide that money? Two of the items claimed as being wonderful concessions and of great economic advantage to the farmers are sugar and flour. We consume very close on 3,000,000 sacks of flour in the year, and it would be a conservative estimate to assess the cost to the people at 13/4 a sack over and above what they have to pay in the English market, viz., £2,000,000 a year. The cost of the sugar industry is approximately £1,000,000. In order to give them the home market we taxed the people to the tune of £3,000,000, and then we are told the farmers are better off in 1939 over and above the period 1931, by £2,000,000. That is the balance sheet from their own returns, and however they may twist or wriggle, or however long the speeches may be, the fact remains that in order to increase the value of the home market, and which was only increased in 1937-38, they taxed the people to the extent of over £3,000,000 and gave the farmers £2,000,000. It is on the basis of that economic situation that we have presented to us a further series of impositions and taxes, and we are told by the Prime Minister, or by some of his able lieutenants, that that is not taxation at all, that it is merely substitute taxation.

The Minister, in his statement estimated a fall in the yield of taxation and gave certain items which he set out. The items are customs and excise, inland revenue, hydro-carbon oils, intoxicating liquor, motor cars, sugar, and various other duties. The excise, which has the least effect, will show a loss from hydro-carbon oils, betting, entertainments, tyres and tubes but that is offset by receipts from spirits and sugar. As regards inland revenue he said a decrease is probable in income tax, death duties, and corporation profits tax I never believed any of the stories we heard from the Government about being interested in the poor man. I never believed that they had any interest in anyone but in the retention of power and authority for themselves. We were told that this is merely substitution. Is there not a lot of difference between substituting taxes on motor cars, betting or entertainment and upon the sugar that the unfortunate working man is bound to purchase for his family? It is merely "substitution"! Is there not a difference between taxes on motor cars, betting and entertainment and all the other items and taxes on beer, spirits and tobacco?

The case made in respect of this Bill is that we have benefited agriculture to the extent of £3,500,000 per year, not taking into account the advantages derived from the remission of the annuities, or taking a period of eight years to show that they have got £5,500,000 in agricultural grant reliefs more than they would have got in the eight years previous to the advent of this Government. One thing they are always very careful about, and that is to compare a certain given number of years with another number. There is a marked difference between the period of peace in which this Government came into power and that of their predecessor—a very marked difference. They came into office in a country in which there were ordered conditions, in which a real attempt had been made over a period of years to reconstruct various damaged properties throughout the State, during which taxation had to be imposed in order to deal with that. It was a very different situation into which this Government came, having also the experience of ten years to guide them in respect of administration. Of course they set off like every set of theorists, practically to alter everything they came across in the State, but if they did, they altered it at enormous cost. They were not long in office when it was found necessary to increase and also to inaugurate a whole series of social services, and the sum total of the social services, over what was expended by their predecessors, does not amount to more than £4,500,000. But they collected over £7,000,000 more than their predecessors and claimed to have saved £2,000,000 which their predecessors undertook to pay to the British Government, so that there is £4,500,000 there of annual squandermania on the part of the Government, £4,500,000 spent on excessive and costly administration, and it is for that the extra taxation has to be imposed on sugar, beer and tobacco.

When they say in this House that they want the Opposition to show where the money is going to come from that is but another exhibition of their incompetence. It is not part of the duty of this House to take out the names of officers in any Department, or to go through each Department as if the members of the House were a county council, in which these matters could be discussed, considered and exposed to the public gaze. All we are to do is to tot up on the one hand the cost of administration, and, on the other hand, point out the increase that has been made in the personnel of the Civil Service in this State. I find that the number of civil servants has gone up almost by 5,000 since the change of office, and they are costing something like £750,000 extra over and above what they cost eight or nine years ago. What do we get for that? They pretend that they have improved agricultural production in this country, that they have got more money for the farmers, and that they have got the home market. I have exposed that humbug.

Let us take the other case. There are three methods for the disposal of our agricultural produce: consumption on the farm, sale on the home market, and export. There has been a catastrophic fall in the export of agricultural produce, during the last six or seven years. I gave a correct figure in this House some three or four months ago when dealing with the whole matter of agricultural produce. In 1931 there was a balance of exports in favour of the agricultural industry of almost £13,500,000. When I say a balance, I mean taking the gross figures of agricultural exports and I deduct from that any agricultural produce or animals that were imported. The nett figure for that in the year 1931 was £13,425,000. For the succeeding seven years there was an average drop in that figure of £6,000,000 a year, notwithstanding the fact that the Government made available for the farmers £3,500,000 a year over and above what they had six or seven years ago. I put it that, in respect of that particular industry, this measure by imposing fresh additional burdens of taxation is unreasonable, unjust, and immoral. One would expect in connection with an industry such as this, over a long period of years helped as has been claimed, by the Government, that there would have been an increase in the number of persons engaged in the agricultural industry or, at any rate, that whatever would happen there would not be a reduction.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce in his speech at the Chamber of Commerce a short time ago had to deplore the fact that the number of persons engaged in agriculture had decreased by 26,000. If we are to take the statement of the head of the Government as evidence of belief in the usefulness of the measures taken to improve agriculture, we should expect to find in the first place an increase in the number of live animals, and an extension of tillage. What are the facts? In the agricultural statistics for June published by the Department of Agriculture we find that in only two items of tillage was there an increase over the figure for 1938. In wheat, there was an increase of 27,710 acres and in mangolds an increase of 100 acres. We find that there is a decrease in the acreage under oats of 36,000, of barley 45,000, of potatoes 11,000, and of turnips 3,000. On balance, we find that there is a net reduction in the acreage under corn and green crops of 78,400. Obviously, we are spending money now to a much greater extent than was the case in 1937-8, for which I gave the figure, because flour is £1 a sack over the British price and, with 3,000,000 sacks, that amounts to £3,000,000 per annum. We can give only an estimate in respect of the cost of sugar production. That is, probably, £1,000,000 extra, so that the total is £4,000,000. At a time when all these efforts have been and are being made to increase tillage, there is a net reduction of 78,000 acres.

What is the position in regard to live stock? There is a net reduction of 4,000 head of cattle, milch cows, heifers and so forth. In pigs, there is a reduction of almost 16,000 and in sheep of 162,000. We have an increase in the case of poultry of 32,000 head. That is the agricultural picture. That is the real balance sheet of agriculture. It is quite true that all that could have happened if sales had been effected of our agricultural produce and the farmers had the money to credit in the bank as a result of the sales. But we have had no evidence of that and, if there is evidence, I should be glad to hear it. So far as stock is concerned, at a time when stock is more needed than ever it was in the history of this country, we are down on the results. This is the period selected by the Government to impose additional taxation which they describe as merely "substitute taxation".

Reference has been made during the course of the discussion on this Bill to the increase which has taken place in the taxation of this country relative to other countries. I have looked up the estimated income of other countries somewhat comparable with this country. I find that very few of them have as low an income as this country has. Take the closest approximation— Norway. The reputed income per head there is £51. The estimate here is, approximately, £50. In Norway, taxation represents about 20 per cent. of the national income. Here, according to Deputy Childers, it has been estimate at 21 per cent. of the national income. If you take these figures in the light of their effect on the individual, you find that taxation on every man in this country is £1 6s. Od. per annum more than it is in Norway— a small sum to people accustomed to dealing with large sums, but it amounts to 6d. per week on the individual. An impost of 6d. per week in the case of workers with small incomes or with unstable or irregular employment can be very severe. Taking a family of five or six paying this extra sum imposed by reason of Government policy and considering the extra cost of flour and these additional imposts on sugar and tobacco, the burden on the individual is more than he can bear. It is unreasonable and unjust in my view to impose this additional taxation. That the money can be saved I have no doubt whatsoever. But the Government will have to make up their minds to work harder than they are working. They should not have such measures as the Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Act and other costly measures introduced.

I find, on looking up the revenue receipts for this year, that, so far as we have gone, we have got about £500,000 more than was received last year to the same date. While we are £500,000 over the figure for last year, I find that the receipts from incometax are £200,000 lower than they were last year although the rate of incometax has been increased. On these figures, something more than a mere statement that there is likely to be a contraction in revenue should be made. We are told that the costs which have to be met in connection with the war situation, or emergency, are censorship, defence, and one or two other items which escape my memory at the moment. What is censorship costing? What is the extra cost of defence? After all, this House is responsible for imposing the taxation. It is at least entitled to know how much costs have been increased under each one of these heads. We are told that we are buying two torpedo boats. Of what use are two torpedo boats in present circumstances? Of what use is the mobilisation of 10,000 or 12,000 troops if we have not the most modern equipment in respect of them? Would it be true to say that the Army we have here would not have lasted as long before the Polish Army as the Polish Army lasted before the German Army? We would not grudge, and we do not grudge, the expenditure of money which will ensure or increase defence in this country. My view about the manner it which it has been expended is that it is mostly wasted and that, instead of endeavouring to modernise the Army, to get a particularly efficient unit and to get antiaircraft guns and aircraft, it is being used in mobilising these huge numbers of men, and it would have been better to spend the money in the way I suggest rather than in this mobilisation. However, no matter what the situation is, at least we are entitled to know what the extra cost amounts to.

In the first place, all this extravagant administration and all these efforts that have been made to improve agriculture have not resulted in bringing more money into the pockets of the agricultural industrialists in this country. They have not even maintained the numbers of persons who were employed in the agricultural industry. It is quite true, as the Ministers say, that there was emigration during the office of the last Government. There was. There was considerable emigration, and they are not absolutely free from responsibility for their own particular activities in connection with it, but one thing has to be noticed in connection with emigration during that period, and that is that it had tapered down until in the last year of the previous Government there was none, whereas under the present Government, during recent years, on a rising population, the people commenced to emigrate and we are now in the position of having perhaps as high a rate of emigration, under self-Government in this country, as anybody ever expected to see in the worst times in this country; and now we have a lower population. We have, according to the Ministry, a larger number engaged in occupations and a larger number of employed. Now, it is not by cross-road speeches that you are going to deal with those matters. It is nonsense to say here that there was a free trade policy in operation previous to the advent of the present Government. The facts speak for themselves. There were £2,000,000 collected in tariffs in the last year of the previous Government, and in the published finance accounts for the year before the present year the sum collected in tariffs on goods was £2,500,000. As I said on another occasion in this House, in order to collect that extra £500,000 the Ministry is spending £200,000 more on the Revenue Commissioners Vote. I should like to know what businessmen or board of directors would keep managers who were responsible for such an extravagant administration. It is not that there has been no case made for this measure; it is that a case has been made for a reduction in taxation rather than an increase, and in consequence we shall have to vote against this Finance Bill.

Mr. Hickey rose.

I understood it was agreed to conclude this debate to-day. I presume the Minister will be given time to reply.

I think the Minister understands, Sir, that last night it was agreed that, since a concession was being made in giving the Bill to-day, a certain amount of time should be given to the Minister to reply, and we thought that, in all the circumstances, ten minutes would be enough for the Minister.

Fifteen minutes.

I do not want to emphasise the very important points made by Deputy Cosgrave, but I appeal to the Minister and the Government to consider very seriously the position of the unemployed, of the widows and orphans, and of the home assistance applicants. I am saying this in all seriousness, because I have a good indication of the mentality of the unemployed and poor of this country. Expressions of sympathy and love for the poor are not what they want, and I was rather surprised on Wednesday to hear the little hope that was held out in the speech of the Taoiseach when he said that the legislation of this House or the Government enabled the weaker sections of the community to exist. It is most unfair to think that we should have large masses of the people of this country merely existing. I want to say that all those people are living in despair and without hope for the future, and that is a very serious thing for anybody. I read a figure published in the Press this morning, which is no real indication of the number of unemployed, but from these figures we find that there are over 55,000 people registering at the labour exchanges without any means and 63,000 others who could be put in the very same category because of the rigid means tests that are applied by the Acts. I have had good reason to know for some time the attitude of the unemployed and the poor, and the growing feeling of resentment to institutions— I might as well say it—such as this, because of the legislation that is passed on their behalf, or supposed to be in their interests, and that has been drafted with regard to these very mean means tests as if these people were a section of the community who were different from everybody else.

I want to remind the Government also that the position of housing for the poor of this country is appalling. I have reason to be alarmed sometimes at the number of people who come looking for houses in the City of Cork, people with families of six and nine living in a room, and who have no hope. I do not mind so much meeting a sad or a distressing case if we could indicate hope for the immediate future, but when masses of people have no hope for the future and are always living in despair, I claim there is no social security in any country. I appeal to the Government to go into the question of the position of the unemployed and the poorer sections of the community immediately, because the meagre allowances that are given for mere existence have been much worsened in the last month or so because of the increased cost of everything.

I do not want to waste the time of the House, but I want to say in all seriousness that I am afraid no section in this House is considering seriously enough the position and mentality of the poor of this country. I am quite satisfied to admit that the Minister has as much love and sympathy for the poor as I have. I admit it, but that is no use to the poor and the unemployed. There is a limit to human endurance, and I want to appeal to the Back Benchers and Front Benchers of all Parties here and tell them that we are not fulfilling our obligations to the poorer sections of the community by simply expressing sympathy and love for them without being prepared to make the necessary changes. I am not unmindful of the emergency through which the country is passing and with which, very likely, we will be faced in the future, but I do say that we are not doing what is necessary for the weaker sections of the community. I suggest to the Minister that bold changes are necessary, and even though we may be expected to make sacrifices, it would be no thanks to us to make such sacrifices in order to ensure that these people may be reasonably well off and comfortable. I am quite satisfied that the Government have their own means of finding out what is the mentality of the people at the moment. I want to say this in all seriousness, that I do not know if the condition of the poor is not worse at the moment than ever it was, with increasing prices, rents going up, increased cost of living, etc. I would not expect from the Minister or from the Government replies such as were made to me recently, that, owing to the heavy burdens on the community, they did not think it advisable to do anything in the way of an increase in old age pensions or widows' and orphans' pensions. Surely the Minister might consult the heads of his Department to find out the condition of those unfortunate sections of the community. I must say it is appalling and, as one representing the City of Cork and having direct knowledge of the poor and of the realities of life, I would appeal to the Government to take immediately into consideration the conditions of the poor and the unemployed throughout the country.

I should not like to lose even a five minutes' opportunity of having a parting kick at this most deplorable of all Budgets ever introduced. The Government which comes into this House and presents this before the House is full of anxious concern about the state of the country. In that mood they asked for our co-operation, but when we look at their actions we can only say that their actions belie the phrases that they used, and give rise to anxiety and disquietude. If the Government wants co-operation, do they regard those phrases as a fair offer to other Parties in the House, when they have to be read in conjunction with their actions? They say that they want the co-operation of every Party in the House for any scheme of theirs—no matter how fantastic it may be and no matter how it may show even the worst elements of a policy which has worked a large degree of havoc in the course of the last five or seven years.

If the Government wants co-operation, there must be give as well as take. Does the Government believe that all the schemes which they started in the past five years have stood the test of even five years' experience? Are there not some who would even say: "We do not entirely discard them, but they are schemes which would only be put into operation during periods of relative and comparative luxury, and, when facing circumstances such as exist, there are certain schemes—although we would not entirely neglect them or regard them as deserving of criticism—in regard to which we will remit our intentions in this particularly critical period, and attend to the things which really matter."

There is one other side of the Government's conduct that amazes most people who are able to look upon it. What is the reason for the amazing tenderness which they show towards certain sections of the community? They carry on their schemes because they are wedded to them. They have done a lot of the things contained in their promises, and probably surfeited with that particular type of diet, they do not want to swallow anything more than what they previously promised. Even keeping the schemes they have in hand, why can they not see that those schemes are economically run?

Take one glaring contrast. In this Budget the sum of £1,500,000 is proposed to be collected on sugar. I look to other countries which, relatively to this country, are not being made bear as heavy a burden as that in its incidence on the poor; and I find in England and in France there are certain special provisions made with regard to those who are likely to make money out of the war emergency. In England there is a heavy devastating tax of the old excess profits duty type. In France the situation exists that men, unless they can make a case and show it over a period of years, will not be allowed to get more than 6 per cent. fixed over the war period. But the Government have here exposed to them two open and unshamed sets of profiteers—the millers and the bacon curers—and they will not move a hand to gather in for the benefit of the community, even if only over the three-years period, the amount these people have taken, and are being allowed to take, during the progress of the war.

If I may refer to one scheme in particular, I would refer to the beet sugar scheme. The Minister knows well that, economically, in itself it would have brought about a situation good for this country. We could have bought sugar and got it much more cheaply, to the extent of £1,400,000 a year—the difference in the cost of importing sugar and the growing and producing of it here. It was not that there was no necessity to make people go into this particular form of production. There were other things coming in and entering into the play of economics without any further effort being made by the Government to artificially bolster up the price of beet. Sugar would have rendered, I think, inevitably, a decrease in acreage, and that acreage could have been better employed and would have given us great relief in that particular item. But the Government is still wedded to their scheme. They are still afraid to regard it as another one that should be rejected and discarded. They must now further distort the ordinary pattern of our economy by higher prices for everything, in order that we consumers will pay still more heavily even in the present straitened circumstances. Will the Minister say to the House and to the country what amount is being spent, and why any money should be spent, on A.R.P.? What money was set aside? What money was spent? What necessity is there to spend any money on such a thing as a "black-out"? What is the reason for the coast-watching and what is it amounting to in the way of cost? What is the emergency we are facing?

There are two new Departments set up: the Department of Supplies and the Department of Co-ordination of Defence. There was an old Lord Chancellor in England of whom it was said when he left the Bench that he made appointments of people of tried incompetence. That is the slogan that has apparently drifted into the Government. There is the case of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, who set up a Department to get supplies and failed to get them, and we are paying £700,000 for his failure in that one item alone. He is moved to a new Department. The Minister for Co-ordination of Defensive Measures was not a bright example of efficiency, yet he is put into a back parlour now to carry on what is called the co-ordination of defence. Could there not be some examination even at this late stage of these two extra Departments? Has the Minister no details as to the cost of the new expenditure? The Minister now decides that the money has to be got, that people who have fleeced the community in every way in years back should now be permitted to fleece them still further. Instead of taking something from them—their shoulders are broad and can bear the burden of extra taxation—he leaves unfortunates to undergo these burdens and fails to contribute to their alleviation during a critical period.

In the time of emergency we came to this House and asked for the co-operation of all Parties in getting over the difficult period that was likely to ensue. It is true that we did that, and that we were promised that co-operation. We got it to some extent, for the first month. First of all, we did not expect, and do not expect, anybody to change their political, economic or financial principles in giving any co-operation to the Government during this period of emergency. We did not, however, expect that we would be asked to drop our economic principles or our political views. It does not follow that any Party or any individual of any Party, in times like this when co-operation might be secured to the advantage of the State as a whole, either on one side or the other, should necessarily subordinate either principles or policy. Nothing of the kind was expected and nothing of the kind was asked. But it is expected, however, before we get the co-operation that was promised, and that was given for a time, that we should drop all our economic policy.

That was Deputy Dillon's statement here, and was more or less the statement of the Deputy who has just sat down, Deputy McGilligan. Deputy Dillon stated here emphatically that there could be no co-operation until such time as Fianna Fáil dropped its economic programme, until it dropped what he called the fantastic schemes in relation to wheat, beet and peat, and other such measures. That part of the programme and policy was adopted by us after full debate in the country and here. The country knew what was put before them. Deputy Davin said here that the people in the country are just as intelligent as anybody in this House. I agree with him. Those at the rural firesides in the country are able to size things up, just as well as we are. They may not technically be so skilled, but they are well able to size up a programme and what it means to the country. They are as well able to do that as anybody in this House. Over and over again, that policy and the policy of the Opposition was put to the country, with the result we know. It is not, as Deputy McGilligan says, that we are wedded to any scheme, no matter how fantastic. We are quite satisfied that the economic scheme which we have put into operation, carried through so far and intend to develop still further, is, in the long run, in the best interests of the country. We are not alone in the world in believing in that scheme of protection, and we have seen, despite the views of Deputy McGilligan and others, that it has offered us a very safe margin of protection during this time of emergency. The protection policy put into operation some years ago when this Government came in has certainly been to our advantage in many respects. There is scarcely time to go into them, but this will not be the last occasion on which we will discuss the pros and cons of the economic policy of Fianna Fáil and that of the Opposition.

Deputy McGilligan stressed the profits being made by certain people and said that they were allowed to get away with them. The Deputy knows that they are not allowed to get away with these profits. Any profits made in this country out of any sort of industry are taxed, and heavily taxed. Some people on the Opposition side said, during the course of the debate, that they were too heavily taxed. Before bringing in the Budget, I examined the prospects of getting more money out of excess profits duty, and I should be very happy to put additional taxation on it, if it would bring us in anything, but I was told on the best advice I could get that it would not be fruitful, that we would get nothing out of it.

The Minister considers it a concession to the taxpayer that he does not give relief of incometax to the millers and bacon curers.

No; I do not say anything of the kind. I say I would put heavier taxes on them if I could get anything out of them. It is a source which I should be very glad to tap, if I could get anything out of it.

Deputy McGilligan also referred to the "black-out" and to A.R.P. There was some money spent on these matters—not very much—but the Deputy knows that, at the outbreak of this war, nobody in Europe, and least of all those primarily concerned in the war on both sides, knew how it was going to develop. Everybody expected that there were going to be immediate air raids on all the big cities in both countries—air raids on Berlin, and bombs dropped broadcast, and similarly in England. I do not think the British Government denied that they anticipated that.

And anticipated here?

We did not know what was going to happen.

Preparation was made against it.

We did not know what was going to happen, and we took some precautions.

Not at all. You only spent money.

We took some precautions.

I should like to have one mentioned.

The "black-out" is one. There was not a complete "black-out" at any time, but there were some precautions taken.

There was some money spent on them.

That is the Deputy's view, and nothing that I could say would change it.

Four items of expenditure were mentioned by the Minister. I took only two of the four he mentioned.

And I am defending those two. Two sets of precautions were taken here. I could imagine the uproar there would be by the Opposition, and nobody would be more eloquent or more sarcastic than Deputy McGilligan—and he is well able to use the weapon of sarcasm, as we know—if anybody happened to be killed by a bomb here, and there was no show of protection of any kind for them. The Deputy would have a lot to say. We did not know what way the war was going to develop——

So what you did was done merely to prevent criticism?

No. Let us be reasonable in this matter. We made a start. Look at England. Hundreds of thousands of children were taken out of the cities and sent to the country——

And they have dropped the "black-out", have they?

——and, after a few weeks, all those children began to come back again, and they had to open schools in the cities.

I thought it was the "black-out" the Minister was discussing, and not children.

They have a "black-out" in England, of course. I want to make this remark, however. There was not a lot of money spent on "black-out" and A.R.P. I have got protests from my constituents that this Government has spent nothing on A.R.P. There is that mentality here. Very little was spent on it, but a beginning was made. In the rush at the beginning of the war nobody knew what was going to happen and there was money spent, but not a great deal. I am devoting too much time to a small item. I never heard a better exposition of the cross-road speech than the speech delivered by Deputy Cosgrave. He condemned cross-road speeches and said that they were not the type of thing the country should be presented with at this time, particularly in view of this taxation. He is as capable a hand at it as anybody I know. He wears a halo—his head is getting a little crooked from the weight of it— and suggests that he is above all that kind of thing.

I think it was the Minister for Justice who said that Deputy Cosgrave got his halo in 1921. He was a revolutionary, the same as the rest of us, up to then, but, immediately he became Minister, the rest of us became black sheep, and he was Saint William for the rest of his days. Anybody who differed from him politically was a black sheep and he had to pull his coat tight around him for fear he should be smeared by association with him. He was as good a cross-road tub thumper as anybody I ever came across and he has not lost the art yet. He can be as good a humbug as anybody I know. He talked of exposing the humbug of the home market, and he exposed himself to me, at any rate, as a hopeless economist and a worse financier.

That is a crushing judgment, coming from you.

Deputy Coburn rose.

I must put the question before 2 o'clock.

I merely want to ask a question with regard to loans for housing.

There is not time. The Deputy understands that the question must be put before 2 o'clock.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 53; Níl, 36.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Friel, John.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hogan, Daniel.
  • Kelly, James P.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Loughman, Francis.
  • McCann, John.
  • McDevitt, Henry A.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Morrissey, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Munnelly, John.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Loghlen, Peter J.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • O'Rourke, Daniel.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Rice, Brigid M.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
  • Walsh Laurence J.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Conn.

Níl

  • Bennett, George C.
  • Benson, Ernest E.
  • Brasier, Brooke.
  • Brenann, Michael.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Davin, William.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry M.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Neill, Eamonn.
  • O'Sullivan, John.
  • Gorey, Denis J.
  • Hannigan, Joseph.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Hughes, James.
  • Keating, John.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McGovern, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Mongan, Joseph W.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy J.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Redmond, Bridget M.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
Tellers:— Tá: Deputies Smith and S. Brady; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Bennett.
Question declared carried.

This is a Money Bill within the meaning of Article 22 of the Constitution.

The House adjourned at 2.10 p.m. until Tuesday, 5th December, at 3 p.m.

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