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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 5 Dec 1939

Vol. 78 No. 7

Pigs and Bacon (Amendment) Bill, 1939—Fourth and Fifth Stages.

Question—"That the Bill, as amended, be received for final consideration"—put and agreed to.
Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

I want to refer to a matter relating to this industry which is of very great urgency. We have a strong advertising campaign going on in connection with wheat growing. We have a strong advertising campaign going on in connection with beet growing and the fancy price of 60/- per ton is being paid for beet. Quite apart from the merits of these schemes, which I do not now propose to discuss—my views regarding them are pretty well known and I do not desire to retreat a fraction of an inch from the position I took up on previous occasions—may I put it to the Minister that the one crop which is of vital and urgent necessity to us is barley—feeding barley. No crop except, perhaps oats, can be used more profitably at present for the community as a whole or from the point of view of the national income than barley, converted into feeding stuffs for pigs. No emphasis is being laid on the necessity for growing barley or oats.

Heretofore, barley in this country has been primarily grown by people aiming at the maltster. They hoped to get their barley taken by the maltster and to get the maltster's price. But they were prepared, if they did not make the grade for malting, to use it for feeding stuffs. If you are aiming at malting barley one of the brands which can be used is Archer Spratt, which, I understand, will produce one of the finest samples available. There are other varieties of barley which, I understand, are very much hardier and very much less prone to being "lodged" in our western districts, where we have very high moisture, a very high rainfall and very often an unsettled autumn. I urge very strongly that the Minister should call up his agricultural instructors—he will find amongst them some of the ablest practicable men in the country—and get a cross section of their view as to what is the most suitable form of barley to be grown primarily for feeding stuffs, and then to address some kind of allocution to those parts of the country, which normally will not grow barley for malting purposes, to get supplies of these hardy types of barley and grow them for the purpose of providing feeding stuffs for pigs.

There is another point that I should like to put to the Minister. Heretofore, the growing of oats and barley has become associated in the minds of the people with very violent fluctuations and often it is only with extreme difficulty that they can be converted into cash crops in the Autumn. Now, I do not believe in the cash crop system in our agricultural economy at all. I think it has been the curse of our Irish agricultural economy in the way in which it has been operated. However, I am not going to enter into that now, but we have to face the fact that our people have been taught for the last seven years to relish cash crops and to seek for them, and having been induced to go into the production of wheat and beet, both of which are cash crops, you have now got to persuade our people more or less to go away from these crops and to go in, for the common good, for the production of an adequate supply of live stock. I submit to the Minister that, if he apprehends a shortage of maize next Autumn, he may say with perfect safety that he will guarantee to anybody who wants to sell feeding barley the price that he would pay for maize, whatever it is. Now, that will not sound a very attractive price to the man who has spent his life in selling barley to the maltsters, but this is feeding barley—barley that would be unsuitable for the maltsters—and if the grower of that barley has the certainty that the Minister will take it off his hands next Autumn at, say, 10/- or 12/- a cwt., I believe that a penny would not be lost thereby because he would be buying it as cheaply as maize, and there will not be a sufficiency of maize in any case. I am prepared to state, as an experienced shop-keeper dealing with country people, that we will be able to sell at least one-third of the total requirements of feeding stuffs in straight barley meal, with no mixture, and I would say that we would be prepared to accept with readiness an arrangement similar to the sugar rationing scheme that existed during the last war, where we were required to take 1 cwt. of brown sugar to five cwt. of white sugar, and I am sure that I would be able to dispose of one cwt. of barley meal for, say, every three cwts. of Indian meal, and could do it without any subsidy or without loss.

There is no risk whatever in giving that guarantee. I doubt if even 1 per cent. of the people who ordinarily grow barley would avail of it, but it would remove that apprehension in the minds of people, who have not been in the habit of growing barley, which might deter them from planting barley this season fearing that it would be left on their hands. Therefore, if we are to get back into the production of pigs with the rapidity which is so desirable under existing circumstances, I urge the Minister to take effective measures now to secure the production of adequate quantities of barley as pig feeding next autumn and in the time hereafter.

I confess that my first intention, when this Bill was introtroduced, was to vote against it, but I have been more or less influenced by two points during the various stages of the Bill. I may say, frankly, that I have been impressed by the sympathetic manner with which the Minister has tried to meet the wishes of all Parties in the House and to make the Bill the best Bill that could be made. I think we all appreciate that. I have been influenced further by the statement the Minister has just made, that this is not intended to be a permanent measure and that he hopes to introduce permanent legislation, at any rate, at no far distant date. I hope that the Minister can promise us now that permanent legislation will be brought in as soon as this unfortunate war is over, if not before.

I regret that it was not possible for the Minister to accept Deputy Dillon's amendment, or that he did not see his way to introduce some similar amendment of his own. To my mind, it would not have created the difficulties that some people seem to apprehend. However, that is done with now. I do not anticipate any difficulty whatsoever, during the war, in getting rid of our pig population, either in the form of live pigs or in the form of bacon. Our only problem will be how to make the best of the best market and how to get all that possibly can be got out of it. If the Bill helps the Minister in that direction, then I wish him every joy of it, but as a permanent measure I still "hae my doots", and I hope he will give an indication that he intends to bring in a permanent measure at least as soon as the unfortunate crisis, under which everybody is labouring now, will have passed away.

I believe that the Bill will be helpful to the pig industry in so far as you have removed in a large measure the interferences of the last two boards, but there is one thing about which I am somewhat apprehensive, and that is the question of the allocation of export licences. I should like the Minister to tell us how these export licences are going to be allocated. I understand at the present time that only 25 per cent. of bacon production in England is controlled, that the controlled price in England at the present time is 15/- a score, and that the other 75 per cent. is sold in a free market at from 18/- to 20/- a score, which is a difference of from about 17/- or 18/- to £1 a cwt. What I want to get information on is this: I believe that, if we continue to export large quantities of bacon, we will have to sell that bacon to the food controller at the controlled price, and at the present time it is only making 15/- a score, whereas live pigs are sold in a free market at a much better price. Our pigs would command from 18/- to 19/- or £1 a score, and so they would be worth 17/- or 18/- in the free market more than the bacon sold under the controlled price to the food controller. That is my information, at any rate, and if I am correct I say to the Minister that we should export all the live pigs we possibly can at the present time.

The Minister may say that he expects there will be some alterations made shortly with regard to control by the food controller—possibly in the New Year—but if we could establish a higher price for our pigs, even for the next month or two, it would be very useful to us in connection with any negotiations we might have with the food controller in the future, and for that reason we ought to avail of every opportunity to export as many live pigs as possible and get the better price for them. I think it is bad policy to be selling bacon at the lower price, when we could get a much better price for live pigs. I would like some information about that.

With regard to the point raised by Deputy Dillon about barley, I have some experience of growing barley and of feeding it to pigs, and I believe that there will be—and that you can have —growing in the country next year a lot of barley, except on light, poor land, and more especially if there is any danger of a shortage of artificial manures. On a lot of land one can grow barley without the aid of artificial manures. Taking the point mentioned by Deputy Dillon with regard to variety, I think we are growing a variety of barley here that is a heavy yielder. I might point out that practically all the barley is used for the manufacture of stout and the colour does not matter so much; that is the reason why we grow a variety that is a heavy yielder. In some parts of England they grow barley for light ales, and in this case it is very essential to have a bright barley for the purpose of a bright ale, like Goldthorpe. That is a bright barley but a poor yielder; yet it commands a much higher price. The type which we grow here is practically 100 per cent. for the manufacture of stout. For that purpose one does not need that bright appearance on the barley at all. For some years we have grown Archer Spratt and Danish Archer, which are the best yielders.

Would the Deputy say they are the best standards in bad weather?

The yield will be sacrificed if we give way to the other. There may be an advantage, but there will not be the yield. One will be sacrificed to the other, so I think we may take it that the right type is the type that is being grown at the present time.

Which is the Archer Spratt.

I do not think that Deputy Dillon has been altogether fair in saying that we have over-stressed the growing of wheat and beet. At any time when I took the opportunity— whether over the radio or elsewhere— of speaking on this question, I tried to impress on the farmers that they should grow foodstuffs, in their own interests, for their own animals, and I pointed out that we had no idea as to what the future would be like and especially that we had no idea whether there would be sufficient foodstuffs imported during the year commencing 1940. For that reason, if the farmers want to be secure, they should grow their own foodstuffs as far as possible. It is true that we did stress the growing of wheat: that was because the last few months were in the beet-growing season and, naturally, the Government must have consideration for the human food supply, if there is any danger of shipping being deficient and so on.

I think that Deputy Hughes has dealt with the point raised by Deputy Dillon; and from his own practical experience, I am quite sure that he could deal with it much better than I could. I believe the native barley is somewhat better for feeding, as it contains more nitrogen; it is that very fact which makes it unsuitable for malting. Though it may not be very much, there is a little more nitrogen in it than there is in Archer Spratt and for that reason it may be more suitable. From what I have heard, and from what I learned in a barley-growing area when I was young, there is hardly sufficient to make it worth while to depart from the Archer Spratt as a general barley for the whole country, whether it is used for malting or anything else.

I hope the fear that Deputy Hughes has expressed will not be realised and that we may have no shortage of manures. Our manufacturers appear to have been able to purchase the raw materials and they have every hope that they will be able to get them in. As I say, however, we do not know what the position may be in regard to shipping as time goes on. We can only hope that we may be able to get them in.

Deputy Dillon may be right—I think he is—that if we get every farmer to grow the grain and the potatoes that he wants for himself and not bother about selling barley and oats, it will be a good thing. We have, however, to note the psychological fact that if there is a good price the farmers will grow for sale. The amount of oats grown is fairly considerable, but only a very small proportion of it is sold.

It is dropping in area.

The reason given for that drop in area was the price of oats, but there is only something like 10 per cent. or 15 per cent. sold of all the oats grown.

When the Minister says oats sold, does he include in those sales the oats sold between farmer and farmer?

I think so. As far as we can find out regarding what is known as the cash crop—grain sold off the farm—taking one year with another it amounted only to about 15 per cent. of the oats grown. If oats is obtaining a bad price in a particular year, it will be found that there is a decline in the acreage next year. If the price improves, the acreage goes up correspondingly. The price has what appears to be a psychological effect on the acreage. There is a different position now, it is admitted, and the farmer who considers his position and looks to the future may be very much more inclined now to grow oats, barley or potatoes for his own animals than he would have been before the war.

Has the Minister any information about seed barley? Will there be sufficient?

I think the seed barley position is all right. As regards the seed oats position, we have endeavoured to get a considerable quantity of oats put aside for seed. We find it very hard to get seed oats for the market because a lot of farmers are holding on to their oats. They may sell it in the springtime for seed.

I do not think it would be advisable to give any undertaking with regard to the price of barley. On considering this matter, I can only see one way of dealing with barley and that is to go back to some scheme like the maize mixing scheme. After all, it does not matter what price I say the farmer should get for his harvest, if I give any guarantee and the farmer comes with the crop next harvest, I do not see what any Minister for Agriculture could do except put it through the ordinary channels of trade and let it go to the maize miller for disposal in some way or other. It may not be necessary actually to mix it, but to arrange that for every five tons of maize meal one must buy a ton of barley.

Yes. That is not going to add any expense.

Possibly it would; it ought not. The maize millers certainly made the plea—I do not say whether it was justified or not—that, on their purchases of barley under the maizemeal scheme, there was an additional expense in mixing.

Did they lose money on it?

They claim that they did.

Do you believe them?

After sitting here for a while one believes nothing. Another point I would like to deal with is that of the county instructors. They have been carrying on good work for years, not only under this Government, but under the last Government. I remember reading of some interesting experiments which were made in 1927 and 1928 in various counties. In addition to carrying out these experiments they also gave lectures on the value of home-grown grain for feeding. There was a very fine summary of these experiments carried out by the Department published in the Department of Agriculture Journal as far back as 1927. These county instructors are still carrying out experiments and advising farmers and county committees of agriculture to grow their own foodstuffs. Perhaps we should do more in that line, but certainly this matter is not being neglected.

Deputy Bennett says that he thinks, when it is all over and done with, the Bill is not so bad. If anything goes wrong with this Bill—I hope Deputy Cosgrave is taking a note of this—we will all accept joint responsibility.

Nobody but the Minister knows what the Bill is for.

With regard to export licences, I dealt with that matter on the last day when we were discussing this Bill, and I suppose I need not go fully into the whole matter again. We agreed to send a certain amount of bacon and live pigs to Great Britain and the proportion of live pigs to go to Great Britain remains fairly constant the whole year through. The proportion was raised considerably last month, and we propose to raise it still more this month. It was only to-day that I got word back from the British Government that they had agreed to accept more live pigs this month.

Will the Minister say if my information is correct?

About prices? Live pigs are worth more. The controlled price in England—it is gone now, of course—up to yesterday was 15/- per score.

Have they abolished control in England?

Yes, until proper control comes in on 5th January.

Until they get enough pigs? They will not get them before the war is over.

Pigs outside control were getting up to 17/- or 18/- per score, but the strange thing is that a number of the licences we issued last month came back unused. While that is a fact, there is no doubt that several traders and several Deputies were writing to the Department, to the board dealing with this matter and to me, urging that many more licences should be sent out. I have also seen resolutions passed by public boards asking for more licences, but some of those issued last month came back unused.

Were they in the hands of people who would use them?

They were only sent to people who exported pigs in November last year, so they were really pig exporters.

I was standing in a fair this day week talking to pig dealers, and they told me that if they had more licences they could buy more pigs.

No doubt that is true. Several exporters have told me that, but we are this month sending out a considerable increase on last month, and I hope the situation will be much better.

Question put and agreed to.
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