Vol. 78 No. 9
I move:—
That it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas of such sums as are required to give effect to any Act of the present Session to establish as on and from the 8th day of September, 1939, a Department of Supplies, and for that purpose, and also for divers other purposes, to amend the Ministers and Secretaries Acts, 1924 and 1928, as on and from the said day.
What is the additional cost expected to be?
Is it to be one, two, three, four or five Ministers, or does anybody know?
I do not think there will be any appreciable cost under this Bill. Provision for the remuneration of a Minister without portfolio, I understand, if such an appointment is to be made, is covered by Section 3 of the Ministerial and Parliamentary Act, 1938.
Do I understand it is proposed to appoint a Minister without portfolio in addition to the present members of the Government?
No. As far as I am aware, there is no such intention.
If the actual number of Ministers provided for by the Constitution is not reached, a Minister without portfolio could be appointed?
Yes.
And probably will be appointed under the Bill?
I do not think so. I am not going to accept the word "probably". I would say possibly.
When the annual Estimates come round, who is to answer—I was going to say for the Department—for the lack of the Department of the Minister without portfolio? There is a Minister without portfolio. He may have no duties assigned to him by the Government. The salary must appear on the Estimates. Naturally he is the person to answer for that. His answer in that case must be limited to extolling the extraordinary wisdom of which he is himself possessed. It cannot go beyond that. I know there are members of the Government who would be delighted with that. I am sorry the Minister for Finance is not here to take charge of the Bill. I have no doubt that he would delight in pointing out the advantage which the Government have owing to his presence as Minister without portfolio. Will that be the situation? If tasks have been assigned to the Minister without portfolio that normally would belong to another Minister, which of the Ministers is going to answer for them?
I assume that that is very largely a matter of accountancy. I have no doubt that there will appear in the Book of Estimates an item which will give the House an opportunity of discussing the activities or otherwise of the Minister without portfolio, if such a Minister be in fact appointed.
I want to know is he to answer for his own virtues, or will there be a combined testimonial from his colleagues as to what a useful man he was in the Executive Council. That would seem to be the only satisfactory way in which the House can discuss whether he is worth being there or not. If the Minister without portfolio is not entrusted with any administrative duties and that his guidance in the Executive Council is so important that it is worth £1,700 per year, we must have a joint testimonial from his colleagues to his worth, otherwise I do not see how we can discuss the Estimate.
It will be a matter for the Minister. He will have to overcome his innate modesty and speak for himself.
I hope the Minister will overcome whatever modesty he has on this subject and give us a reasonable outline of the expenditure that is likely to be incurred if this resolution is passed and the Bill is put into operation.
I was asked what the expenditure under the Bill was likely to be. I am advised that, in fact, under the Bill there is not likely to be any expenditure—that if such occurred it would be covered by the Act of 1938. I assume that if a Minister without portfolio is appointed he will carry the ordinary Ministerial salary. The amount of the departmental charges will depend on the duties assigned to him.
The Minister, of course, answered that any expenses are already provided for in the previous Act. Shall I put the question somewhat differently? If this Bill is not passed, what expenditure is likely to be saved? If the Government had not power to appoint a Minister without portfolio there would probably be a saving of money.
I could not give my mind to that problem—it is too indefinite.
£1,700 is the one thing that is definite in this whole procedure.
