Vol. 78 No. 11
I move:—
That it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas of such sums as are required to give effect to any Act of the present Session to repeal Part VI of the Offences Against the State Act, 1939, and to make other provisions in relation to the detention of certain persons.
Is the Minister able to give the House any estimate of the cost of this?
About £100 I understand.
I gather that it is proposed to have some persons to act who are already in the employment of the State.
We will try to get other people to act on that commission, but I cannot say if we will be able to get them.
Can the Minister say what kind of people he has in mind, apart from those with legal qualifications? Has he the names and, if so, will he give them? If he has not the names can he give the type of people?
I have not any in mind.
I have handed in some amendments in connection with Section 8, and I presume the Minister is going to give time to have them considered. They are amendments which have been the subject of very considerable thought. They are not being lightly put in. They are put in in face of the discussion that took place last night in connection with the tribunal. They are mainly concerned with the tribunal. If adopted, it is possible that the cost might be something in excess of what the Minister stated. Having handed them in, just as the division bell rang, I presume the Minister is not going to refuse to consider them.
No.
I want to get some information from the Minister about this question. What kind of persons has he in mind? Surely at this stage, when the Minister contemplated setting up a commission of this kind, which is somewhat similar to the type of commission referred to in the discussion in yesterday's Bill, there was some advertence to the sort of people who would constitute it. Yesterday a proposal was offered whereby persons concerned could appeal to the High Court. The Minister then in charge thought it was an undesirable amendment to commit himself to without further consideration. As that Bill is now in the Seanad, surely there has been further consideration. Possibly the same kind of commission that would function in respect of the other Bill would function under this Bill.
Can we be told the kind of persons that are likely to be dealing with applications of this kind? If they are legal people I do not want any further information. If there is one legal person, and two lay people, and if a majority will decide the applications, it is important to know what kind of lay people will be selected. Will they be Army officers, will they be ex-Army officers, prospective Army officers, or ex-Deputies. Will they be associated with any kind of political Party?
Of course we must get a judge to act on this commission, but there will be no cost to the State. In the event of not getting a judge of the High Court or the Supreme Court or someone like that, we might be able to get someone else at present in the employment of the State. I have not in mind who the other two people may be. As far as possible I will try to get a judge to sit on the commission.
The point raised by Deputy Norton is one of substance. Admitting that we get a judge of the High Court, the present plan provides that the judge or a legal person can be overruled by the two laymen sitting with him on the commission. You may have a judge, on the one hand, not finding a prisoner guilty and the two laymen finding him guilty and, as a result of their verdict, the prisoner is kept in internment. What Deputy Norton asks is this: what class of persons has the Minister in mind to accompany the judge? Will they be two Army officers or two practising barristers of seven years' standing? Will they be two laymen belonging to a political organisation, or will they be specifically excluded from any political affiliations? Surely the Minister must have in mind some scheme. Remember that we are dealing now with a Bill that was not drafted in a hurry, that is merely a re-enactment of a Bill drafted at leisure, when the present Minister for Local Government and Public Health was Minister for Justice. His mind must have turned at some time to this tribunal, and he must have some idea of the class of persons that are going to sit with the judge.
The person we had in mind when this question was raised was a judge. We were anxious to get a judge. This would be somewhat similar to the last commission that was set up with two Army officers.
With the judge?
Yes.
Is it intended to have officers of certain seniority in rank.
With certain seniority of rank.
Resolution agreed to and reported.
