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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 19 Mar 1940

Vol. 79 No. 9

Enforcement of Court Orders Bill, 1940—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. The objects of the Bill are to make certain amendments of the law relating to instalment orders, maintenance orders, and affiliation orders, and to provide for the release in proper cases of persons imprisoned for non-payment of debt. An explanatory memorandum has been circulated with the Bill, and perhaps all I need do at this stage is to refer to what I think are the three principal defects in the existing law which the Bill is intended to remedy. The first is that under the existing law arrears of weekly sums due under maintenance orders and affiliation orders have to be sued for in the same way as ordinary civil debts. This is an expensive and cumbersome procedure, and I understand that women who obtain maintenance orders and affiliation orders often make no attempt to enforce them when they discover the difficulties involved. As will be seen, in the Bill we are providing that a person against whom an instalment has been made can be brought up for examination. If a satisfactory explanation is not given, he may be committed to prison for three months. If he can show that he is not in a position to pay the instalment, it can be varied. The court will decide that question.

The second defect in the present law is that when a man is imprisoned under Section 18 of the Enforcement of Court Orders Act, 1926, for failure to pay an instalment of a debt, he cannot be released before the expiry of the period for which he is committed unless he pays the whole debt. Payment of the instalment in respect of which he is committed is not sufficient. I think that that is not right. We want to remedy the law there so as to provide that if the person pays the instalment of the debt that has accrued due, he may be released. There is no power to do that at present.

Mr. Brennan

You want to release him?

Mr. Boland

To have power in a proper case.

What would be a proper case?

Mr. Boland

It will have to be inquired into to see if it is a proper case. There are cases where even the creditor has said that it is a hard case. A man is committed for non-payment of, say, £5 per month, or something like that. He allows the instalments to accumulate until there is a committal order made, and the man is sent to prison. As the law stands at present, he would have to pay the whole of the debt or he could not be released until the period for which he has been imprisoned has expired.

Has he to pay the whole debt?

Mr. Boland

I am advised that it is necessary for him to pay the whole of the debt—payment of the instalment will not do.

Mr. Brennan

What machinery does the Minister propose to deal with that?

Mr. Boland

The Minister may release him. He first consults the justice. Section 9 (1) says:

(1) Where a person is in prison in pursuance of an order of a court made on account of the failure of such person to pay a sum of money, the Minister for Justice may, at any time and for any reason which appears to him sufficient, direct that such person shall be released either (as the said Minister shall think proper) forthwith or after payment of a specified part of the said sum of money.

Sub-section (3) of that section provides:

(3) The Minister for Justice shall not direct under this section the release from prison of a person until or unless either the said Minister has consulted the Judge or Justice by whom the order for the imprisonment of such person was made as to the propriety of such release or the said Minister is satisfied that such consultation is impracticable in the circumstances.

I think that will make the law more satisfactory than it is at present.

The third defect is that there does not appear to be any clear authority for the release of a person imprisoned for non-payment of debt, even in a case where the creditor asks for the release, or in a case where, for health reasons, it is undesirable that the debtor should be detained in prison. These are the main changes which are being made. I do not propose to take the Committee Stage until the end of next month, say the 24th April, or longer. We want to make the law as satisfactory as possible in cases of this kind, and I invite Deputies to put down any amendments which they may think necessary.

Mr. Brennan

The Minister's desire to amend the present law seems very reasonable from what he said. But it is very questionable if the way he proposes to make the amendment is so desirable. With regard to affiliation orders, it is quite possible, and I think probable, as a rule that these orders are not being enforced because the person who is entitled to the money finds the machinery too expensive or too difficult. Perhaps the Minister could find some better way than having the man brought up for examination. After all, we have collected the land annuities on the basis of the sheriff sending out notices, and we have made that very simple. Perhaps in this case something similar could be done.

With regard to the releasing of prisoners, I am not at all enamoured with the machinery which the Minister proposes to set up. Persons may be in jail under a court order, and if the Minister says that at the moment the Act is so straightly drawn that a man cannot be released even though it is desirable that he should be released, something ought to be done to amend it. But that the Minister himself should have the power to do that does not appear to be equitable. The fact that the Minister must consult the justice does not appear to me to be a safeguard at all. If the Minister consults the justice, and if it is the Minister's wish to release the person, he will probably be released, and that will be the end of it. Perhaps the Minister could find some way whereby such a person would be brought before a court. Why should he not be brought before a court? Is there not plenty of machinery to bring him before a court? Why should not a man whom the Minister thinks it is desirable to have released be brought before a court, and the Minister put up his case there, or someone for him? There ought to be some machinery found in that way to meet that case. I do not think it is desirable that the Minister should have the last word or the only word as to whether a man should or should not be released, because I am afraid, if it did not lead to abuse it would certainly lead to suspicion.

Mr. Boland

Perhaps the Deputy is not aware that that has been the practice in all cases. I am not saying that that makes it any better.

Mr. Brennan

I am afraid we are at sixes and sevens about the matter. Whatever the Minister is suggesting as a remedy is not what he said.

Mr. Boland

I mean that in an ordinary case of imprisonment, quite apart from this case of debt, the Minister is the person who can do it. He has not the power in this case. I do not think the Deputy is aware of that.

Mr. Brennan

They are different matters altogether. This is a matter of money—a matter of debts. I do not think that the Minister should set himself up as a judge in that case. It would not be wise for him to do so. The thing would be open to suspicion on every occasion. The Minister should devise some machinery whereby the man could be marched back to court for some kind of examination and then released.

Mr. Boland

On that point, I have an open mind. I shall consider any proposal designed to improve the Bill. No Minister wants to take any power in a matter of this kind that he can avoid taking. Between now and the Committee Stage, I shall have the matter considered. I invite any Deputy who thinks he can improve the Bill to put down amendments for consideration in Committee.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee stage ordered for 24th April.
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