Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 10 Apr 1940

Vol. 79 No. 10

Local Authorities (Officers and Employees) (Amendment) Bill, 1940—Second Stage.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Local Government and Public Health (Dr. Ward)

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. The main purpose of it is to amend the Local Authorities (Officers and Employees) Act, 1926, so as to exclude from its operation the posts of nurses and midwives under local authorities. Since the Local Appointments Commissioners were established they have recommended 1,782 nurses, including 398 midwives, for appointment, a number which is equal to one-half of all the statutory recommendations made. Last year the number recommended for these offices was 138, of which 99 were recommendations of hospital nurses, four of public health nurses, 11 of matrons and head nurses and 24 of midwives.

In the last two years there has been a falling off in the numbers of applicants for permanent nursing posts under local authorities. Some nurses seem to prefer temporary appointments under public authorities or private practice, as the remuneration for such employment is generally higher than that offered for permanent posts. In some institutions, such as the Dublin Fever Hospital, which are training centres for fever nursing, it is understood that it would be easier to recruit the permanent nursing staff from nurses with general medical and surgical training who have completed their period of fever training in the institutions than by reference to the Local Appointments Commissioners. In present conditions and with the prospect of the demand for nursing services becoming greater it will facilitate local bodies if they are able to offer nurses immediate employment in permanent posts. There will still be cases in which reference to the Local Appointments Commissioners would be advisable. This is particularly so in regard to higher nursing posts such as matron and sister tutor, in respect of which special qualifications and experience are necessary. It will be open to the Minister after the passing of this Bill to make a declaration applying the Act of 1926 to such posts. It is desirable that these declarations should be reviewed from time to time and if necessary the Minister should be able to revoke any declaration made. For this purpose Section 3 has been included in the Bill.

A further amendment relates to the maximum period for which a person temporarily appointed under Section 5 of the Act of 1926 can hold office. This was fixed for six months. It has been found in practice that appointments cannot always be made within that period, sometimes owing to delay in making the application, sometimes owing to difficulty in getting a person with the requisite qualifications or other reasons. When the permanent appointment is not made within the time fixed there is no other course open but to continue a temporary arrangement. The removal of the limit will not lead to the undue prolongation of temporary appointments. The power given by Section 6 of the Act to the Minister to move on behalf of the local authority is sufficient to prevent permanent appointments being indefinitely held up.

Mr. Brennan

I was anxious to hear the Parliamentary Secretary on his reasons for introducing this Bill, and I am not satisfied that he has made a case for its introduction. He has not told us that the machinery for the working of the Act was unsatisfactory or that the local authorities were dissatisfied with what they got; he has not given us any reason for its introduction. Personally, I always felt it was most unfair to nurses to be brought up to Dublin at their own expense and to be charged a fee when they went before the Local Appointments Commission. There might be nine or ten nurses applying for one position and very often a nurse had to come to Dublin several times. These were girls with limited means. There was a strong case to be made on those grounds. Representations have been made to me—I cannot vouch for their accuracy—that since the publication of this Bill, nurses who had already been making arrangements for getting further qualifications such as the C.M.B. have dropped their course of studies because of the fact that they would not now have to go before the Appointments Commissioners and that they would be able to get appointments without the further qualifications that used to be looked for by the Appointments Commissioners. I do agree that under the existing system we were getting nurses with better qualifications.

The Minister told us that during the time of the Local Appointments Commissioners, 1,782 nurses had been appointed. He did not tell us if there was any drawback in any way, or that the Local Appointments Commissioners were not satisfied. Some people suggest that the reason for the Bill was because of the fact that there were to be county managers and that in the future there will be no more boards of health. It seems the Minister is going to trust the county managers to make the selections. He would not trust the members of the boards of health to do so. The Minister has not really given the House a case for the change. I think it is quite right that the Minister is retaining for the Appointments Commissioners a certain number of appointments. I say that because I am afraid that if local influence is going to have any say in the appointments the standard of the qualification of the nurses will not be raised. The Appointments Commission have done it. They have raised the standard of qualification.

Section 4 is reasonable, and I am glad the Minister has put it in, because very often boards of health are not in a position, for one reason or another, to make a permanent appointment on a particular day, and that had to be met in that way. I am disappointed, however, with the case the Parliamentary Secretary made for the Bill. In fact, I do not think he made a case at all. He simply said that the work that was done in the past was going to be done in another way now. He has not told us why. He has not given any reason why it should not be done by the commission. I should like that the Local Government Department would be satisfied that the standards demanded by the Appointments Commission will be maintained, and that there will be the same incentive and impetus to acquire those degrees and higher standards of efficiency in the future as there was in the past.

Mr. Hurley

I just want to say that local authorities will not have any jurisdiction under this Bill, inasmuch as they will be governed by the County Management Bill now passing through the House. In that Bill, so far as I can read it, the county managers will have the appointment of such nurses, midwives, etc. I should like to ask if that is not so.

Dr. Ward

That is so.

Mr. Hurley

Therefore, while it looks on the surface as if the local authorities were getting a concession with regard to these appointments, the fact remains that it is the manager who will have the making of these appointments, and Deputy Brennan need have no fear that the local authority will have anything to say to it.

Mr. Brennan

I said that.

Mr. Hurley

I venture to say that you would hardly have this Bill brought in but for the fact that the County Management Bill is almost through. I have no objection to it.

Dr. Ward

Deputy Brennan complains that I did not put any reasons before the House in justification of this measure. I stated that since the Local Appointments Commissioners were appointed they have recommended 1,782 nurses, including 398 midwives, for appointment, a number which was equal to one-half of the statutory recommendations made. If the number of nurses recommended for appointment since the Local Authorities (Officers and Employees) Act was passed is in fact half the total of the statutory appointments made, that must indicate quite clearly to the House that there have been frequent changes. These frequent changes arise very largely from persons getting married. The local authorities have not been satisfied because of the continual dislocation of their services by nurses resigning very shortly after appointment, and the Local Appointments Commissioners have not found the scheme satisfactory as far as nurses are concerned for the reason that competition has been falling off.

Mr. Brennan

I hope this Bill will not prevent them from getting married?

Dr. Ward

It will not. It is not intended that it should. The Deputy will see that, at any rate, when a nursing vacancy occurs in a public institution it can be filled with considerably less delay than it can be filled in present circumstances. I referred to the particular difficulty of the Dublin Fever Hospital. The Dublin Fever Hospital take in trained nurses for fever training. They have found by actual experience that nurses are reluctant to go in for fever training if there is not an almost certain prospect that when they get that training they will be appointed on the staff of the hospital for a time at any rate. They have experienced more difficulty in that regard I think than any other institution. So far as the standard of qualification is concerned, it will not be altered. The standard of qualification will still obtain. The qualifications for the vacancy will be laid down when the post is advertised. I suppose it may be assumed that a county manager, to whom Deputy Hurley referred, will exercise a wise discretion in still continuing to select the most highly qualified candidates presenting themselves for the posts.

Mr. Brennan

I have no doubt that the standard of qualification will be maintained; but whether people with the highest qualifications will be appointed is another matter.

Mr. Hickey

We must depend on the managers for that.

Mr. Brennan

I have not the same faith in the managers that I have in the Appointments Commission. I have no doubt, as far as getting their qualifications is concerned, the same standard of examination will be observed and the same standard of qualification. But, whether a nurse who has a C.M.B. and fever qualification, will be accepted over a nurse who has not these qualifications is a thing I am not satisfied about.

Question put and agreed to.

Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, April 17th.