Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 16 May 1940

Vol. 80 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vote 53—Forestry.

An tAire Tailte (Tomás O Deirg)

Tairigim:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £152,835 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1941, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí i dtaobh Foraoiseachta (9 agus 10 Geo. 5, c. 58; agus Uimh. 34 de 1928), maraon le Deontas-i-gCabhair chun Talamh do Thógaint.

That a sum not exceeding £152,835 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1941, for Salaries and Expenses in connection with Forestry (9 and 10 Geo. 5, c. 58; and No. 34 of 1928), including a Grant-in-Aid for Acquisition of Land.

Isé an méid iomlán glan atáthar a iarraidh i gcóir na bliana airgeadais atá anois ann ná £229,255, sin méadú de £21,306 ar Vóta na bliana 1939-40. Is i Rannán C. 2, Rannán faoi n-a n-iarrtar costas coimeádta i dtreo agus costas plandála, atá an chuid is mó den mhéadú. I ngeall ar an mbreis atá ag dul ar chaiteachaisí an Stáit is cuibhe, ní nach iongnadh, cúrsaí foraoiseachta do bhreithniú féachaint arbh fhearr leanúint den obair faoi mar atá no ar mhiste é chiorrbhadh a bheag no a mhór. Isé cinneadh, de bharr an bhreithnithe sin agus ag féachaint don am le theacht, leanacht de thalamh feiliúnach i gcóir foraoiseachta do thógaint agus an oiread a phlandáil agus is féidir, ionnus go bhféadfar na planndaí go léir sna garrdhanta altran úsáid agus d'fhonn gur móide an méid oibre bhéas le fáil ag muinntir na tuatha.

Isé an t-achar talmhan a tóigeadh anuraidh i gcóir na hoibre ná 12,739 n-acra i gcomórtas le 7,509 n-acra sa mbliain 1938-39. Tá estát amháin, ámh, ina bhfuil os cionn 3,500 acra ina chuid den 12,739 n-acra sin. Ní dócha go bhfuighfear aon estát a bheidh chó mór sin le ceannach feasta. Méaduíodh, i rith na bliana, an fhuireann atá i mbun talamh a thógaint.

Tiocfaidh límistéir mhóra i seilbh na Rannóige Foraoiseachta faoi cheann cúpla seachtain. Is féidir a bheith deimhin de go bhfuil an oiread talmhan atá feiliúnach do chrainte á thógaint o uain go chéile agus is gá chun nach reachaidh aon laigheadú ar an méid crann is gnáth a chur gach bliain. Ionnus go mbeadh obair na ngarrdhanta altran agus an obair phlandála ag freagairt i gceart dá chéile ní mór roinnt talmhan sa mbreis do thógaint tamall maith roimh ré le haghaidh plandála agus táthar ag féachaint go cúramach don taobh sin den scéal.

Tríd is tríd ba mhó de bheagán acra na límistéir a tairgeadh a dhíol leis an Rannóig Foraoiseachta i rith na bliana seo caithte, ná na límistéir a tairgeadh sa mbliain 1938-39; ach mar sin féin, níl na límistéir atá le fáil anois in aon ghaor do bheith chó fairsing leo siúd a bhí le fáil cúpla bliain o shoin agus, dá bhrí sin, tá sé níos deacra anois réigiúin fheiliúnacha foraoiseachta d'fhorbairt ná bhí go dtí seo.

Níl eolas beacht ar phlanndáil an tséasúir atá caithte ar fáil go fóill, mar chuir an aimsir moill ar an obair agus tá an phlandáil ar siúl fós ina lán áiteacha; ach meastar gur tuairim is 6,600 acra a bheas curtha um dheireadh na tréimhse no tuairim is 1,000 (míle) acra níos lugha ná achar an tséasúr roimhe sin.

Sé an t-achar iomlán de thalamh foraoise atá ar láimh anois ná tuairim is 136,770 acra. Tá tuairim is 93,779 n-acra de sin curtha agus tá 24,000 acra ar a laighead de nach féidir a phlandáil. Isé atá sa chuid eile dhe ná talamh scrubarnaigh, talamh lom atá ullamhuithe chun plandála, talamh nach féidir a phlandáil, garrdhanta altran, etc. Tá seacht réigiúin nóchad faoi chrainn anois. Is cinn nua na réigiúin atá in aice na n-áiteacha seo leanas, eadhon, Bántír, Co. Chorcaighe; Ros Mhic Treoin, Co. Loch Garman, agus Baile an Ghleanna, Co. Chill Mhantán; Conga i gCo. Mhuigheo agus i gCo. na Gaillimhe agus Droichead na Banndan, Co. Chorcaighe. Is deallrathach go gceapfar réigiúin nua sul i bhfad in aice leis an gCreagán, Co. na Gaillimhe agus le Muine an Mheádha sa gcondae céanna. Ach, ar ndóigh, ní hé cur na réigiún nua, an t-aon chruthú amháin ar obair an Stáit i gcúrsaí Foraoiseachta do bheith ag dul i méid go mór mór, ina theanta sin táthar ag fáil talmhan sa mbreis agus á chur leis na sean-réigiúin i gcomhnaí. Nuair a bhíos talamh le ceannach isé an talamh is comhgaraí do na sean-réigiúin, agus a bhíos ar fáil, a ceannuítear i dtreo gur lugha-de an costas maoirseachta. Nuair is gá réigiúin nua foraoise do cheapadh, ní mór tuairim is 300 acra ar a laighead de thalamh ion-phlandála chuige sin ionnus nach mbeadh an costas a gheobhadh leis ró-árd. Mara mbíonn learg chuimseardha thalmhan le fáil ón aon únaer amháin tógann sé tamall maith, ní nach iongnadh, socrú dhéanamh chun roinnt learg bheag in aice a chéile do cheannach i gcó-thráth o n-a n-únaeraí. Tagann de sin, uaireanta, go meastar san éagcóir go mbíonn fabhar á thabhairt do cheanntair áirithe toise cuid mhaith thalmhan do bheith á cheannach ionta tráth áirithe.

An méid is gá le haghaidh na rannán faoi leith tá sin leagtha amach san imleabhar clóbhuailte a tugadh do na Teachtaí cheana féin agus níl fúm trácht go mion ina thaobh. Ní bhacfad ach leis na haltáin sin is gá a bhreithniú go speisialta.

I Rannán A, Rannán faoi n-a n-iarrtar an t-airgead i gcóir tuarastal agus liúntaisí na fóirne riaracháin agus maoirseachta, tá méadú de £2,647. Isé is príomh-shiocair leis seo an fhuireann chléireachais do bheith ag méadú mar gheall ar an mbreis oibre bhaineas le tailte foraoiseachta bheith á síor-thógaint.

Rannán C. 1. Talamh a Thógaint — Isé an méid iomlán a vótáladh anuraidh le n-a aghaidh seo ná £45,000 agus sí an tsuim chéanna atá curtha síos don bhliain seo. Fuarthas amach nár leor an £30,000 do hiarradh sa meastachán bunaidh agus do vótáladh suim bhreise de £15,000 ina dhiaidh sin. Is i bhfuirm Deontas-i-gCabhair a vótáltar an t-airgead so agus, in ionad aon fhuighleach a bhíos fágtha i ndeireadh na bliana do thabhairt suas, is amhlaidh a tugtar ar aghaidh é go dtí an chéad bhliain airgeadais eile. Is gá déanamh mar seo i ngeall ar an tréimhse fhada bhíos idir déanta an mhargaidh chun an talamh a cheannach agus am críochnuithe na gcúrsaí dlí bhaineas leis an scéal. I dtús na míosa seo bhí tuairim is £11,882 fuighligh sa gCiste um Thalamh do Thógaint. Nuair a gheobhfar an £45,000 atá á iarraidh anois, isé suim iomlán a bheas ar fáil chun talamh a cheannach i rith na bliana seo ná £56,882. Ar an taobh eile den scéal tá socrú cinnte déanta chun 3,600 acra do cheannach ar £11,116 agus táthar ag tairisgint tuairim is 3,700 acra do cheannach o Choimisiún na Talmhan ar £11,072. Ina theanta sin, tá breithniú á dhéanamh maidir le sé cinn sheachtód de learga talmhan, ina bhfuil os cionn 8,000 acra ar fad, a tairgeadh a dhíol leis an Roinn Foraoiseachta agus a meastar is fiú £25,000 ar a laighead; agus fós is cosúil go mbeidh tuilleadh talmhan le fáil o Choimisiún na Talmhan i gcóir foraoiseachta.

Rannán C. 2, £174,231 Saothrú, Coimeád i dtreo, etc. —Tá méadú de £22,120 ar an Rannán seo; agus tá beartuithe £3,000 den mhéadú sin do chaitheamh ar pháigh do mhaoir coille agus do Shaoistí; £13,500 a chaitheamh in íoc an chostais bhreise bhainfidh leis an ngnáth-obair agus £5,500 chun díol as an méid sa mbreis a chosnóidh abhair fhálachta, uirlisí, etc.

Do réir mar a bhéas níos mó talmhan á chur ar fáil, caithfear tuilleadh Maor Coille agus Saoistí d'fhostú.

Tá an tsuim is gá chun abhair fhálachta, etc., do cheannach méaduithe go mór mór, sa gcaoi a bhfuil an saol faoi láthair, tá gach aon cosamhalacht ann go mbeidh na habhair i bhfad níos daoire feasta. Tá sé cuibheasach dian ar an Rannóig dóthain de na habhair seo fháil faoi láthair, ach táthar ag súil go leigheasfar an scéal sul i bhfad.

Tá beagán sa mbreis á iarraidh chun síolta agus fásóga a cheannach, mar níl aon aimhreas, agus an saol mar atá, ná go mbeidh sin níos costasúla amach anseo. Tá sé an-deacair síolta d'fháil, agus maidir le cineálacha áirithe, ní dócha go mbeidh ar chumas na Rannóige a mbeidh uatha d'fháil olc ná maith. Fágfaidh sin go mbeidh plandaí de na cineálacha sin gann faoi cheann cúpla bliain. Níl á ceannach ach a laighead agus is gá d'fhásóga agus de phlandaí athchuir ach beidh sé riachtanach i gcomhnaí riamh plandaí de chineálacha áirithe d'fháil o dhreamanna eile faid is ná beidh dóthain de thalamh breise le haghaidh foraoiseanna ar seilbh againn agus nach féidir bheith deimhnitheach, trí bliana roimh ré, cé mhéad talmhan a bhéas le cur. Deintear oiread agus is féidir de na plandaí bhíos ag teastáil do cheannach o lucht garrdhanta altran sa tír seo, ach ní i gcomhnaí bhíos an méid a bhíos de dhíth le fáil uatha san. Uime sin, ní mór cuid den cheannach a dhéanamh i dtíortha eile. An seasúr seo caithte do horduíodh 1,100,000 fásóg agus 46,200 planda athchuir o lucht garrdhanta altran in Éirinn, agus do horduíodh 2,365,000 fásóg agus 1,012,000 planda athchuir ón gcoigcrích.

Maidir le líon na bhfear oibre i rith na bliana seo caithte, bhí 1,208 ag obair i Mí na Samhna agus 1,994 i ndeireadh an Mhárta. Cé nach raibh oiread ag obair agus a bhí an bhliain roimhe sin, ba mhó an méid a raibh buan-obair aca.

An tsuim a vótáladh i meastachán na bliana anuraidh is chun tithe a dhéanamh do thriúr maor coille táthar á hiarraidh arís i mbliana mar bhí sé an-deacair suidhimh fheiliúnacha fháil ina gcóir. Is aimhreas linn, ámh, agus an saol mar atá, nach féidir tithe feiliúnacha a thógáil ar an méid airgid atá ceaptha agus ní foláir an cheist a bhreithniú tuilleadh.

Rannán C. 3, £2,495 Oibriú adhmaid. —An méadú de £874 atáthar a iarraidh faoi'n Rannán seo, isé is príomhshiocair leis ná an muileann sáibhéireachta d'oibriú a tháinig 'n-ár seilbh nuair a bhí Estát Guinness i gConga, Co. Mhuigheo, a thógaint agus a hathoscladh i Mí na Nodlag seo caithte. Is i nDun Droma, i gCondae Thiobrad Arann, atá an muileann sáibhéireachta eile atá á oibriú ag an Rannóig Foraoiseachta, agus déantar a lán adhmaid a ghearradh san dá mhuileann sin don mhuintir ina gcomharsanacht. Ina theanta sin, déantar a lán cuaillí fáil, geataí, etc., i gcóir na dtailte Foraoise is leis an Stát.

Rannán D. 1, £700 Deontaisí i gcóir foraoiseachta: Faoi'n Rannán seo, tugtar deontaisí do dhaoine príobháideacha agus do chóluchtaí puiblí a chuireann crainte ar a dtailte féin. Isé méid an deontais ná £4 an t-acra, agus íoctar £3 de sin nuair bhíos an phlandáil críochnuithe, ach an Roinn do bheith sásta leis an obair, agus íoctar an punt eile i gcionn chúig mblian, má coimeádtar an ceap i dtreo cheart idir an dá linn. Ní mór chúig acra ar a laighead do chur chun deontais d'fháil, ach tig le roinnt únaeraí an méid sin do phlandáil eatorra.

I ngeall ar an nglaoch atá ar adhmad na hEireann faoi láthair, tá anchuimse crann á leagadh, agus ós gnáthach go gceangailtear ar lucht a leagtha, faoi'n Acht Foraoiseachta, 1928, an talamh folamh d'athchur, meastar go mbeidh éileamh ar na deontaisí seo go ceann roinnt bhliain.

Rannán D. 2. Lá na gCrann:— Socruíodh stad den scéim seo go ceann tamaill. Bhí an méid crann óg a bhí ag teastáil óna scoltacha ag dul i laighead o bhliain go bliain agus measadh go mb'fhearr, d'fhonn airgead a spáráil, eirghe as a bheith á soláthar dóibh go dtí go mbeadh cor níos fearr ar an saol.

Rannán E. 1, Oideachas i gCúrsaí Foraoiseachta, £1,300.—Is don Scoil Foraoiseachta in Avondale an chuid is mó d'airgead an Rannáin seo. Ise is príomh-shiocair leis an laigheadú de £1,147 sa meastachán, i gcomórtas le méid na bliana anuraidh, ná an obair maidir le solus leictreachais do chur isteach agus soláthar nua uisce do chur ar fáil—dhá ní gur vótáladh airgead ina gcóir anuraidh—do bheith criochnuithe, agus nach gá airgead ina gcóir seo, ná i gcóir aon oibre eile chó mór céanna, i mbliana. Agus, fós, b'éigin, i ngeall ar an gcogadh, eirghe as an socrú chun cúrsa oiliúna thar lear a thabhairt do bhaill den fhó-fhuirinn teicniúil.

Rannán E. 2, £75, Láithreoga ag Taisbeántais. —Is chuige airgead an Rannáin seo chun Láithreog, ina mbeadh eolas le fáil ar gach a mbaineann le Gnó na Foraoiseachta, do bheith ar Aonach an Earraigh ag Droichead na Dothra agus chun cinn eile den tsamhail chéanna bheith ag teasbántaisí eile.

Rannán H, £15,200, Leithreasaí i gCabhair. —Sé atá sa Rannán seo an teacht isteach o gach taobh, mar atá airgead féarach, cíos iostán, dleachta foghlaerachta, etc.; is as adhmad a dhíol, a thagann furmhór an fháltais seo, ámh. Is mó de £3,200 an méid atá luaidhte i Meastachán na bliana seo, ná an tsuim a fuarthas sa mbliain 1939-40; ach má leanann adhmad na hEireann ag dul i ndaoire mar atá, ní miste bheith ag súil le suim níos mó ná sin. D'fhéadfaí, dar ndóigh, a lán eile airgid a dhéanamh as adhmad a dhíol, ach gach cineál crainn iondíolta atá againn, pe'ca in úd a leagtha no eile dhó, a chur ar an margadh. Níorbh ionmholta an ní é seo dhéanamh, agus sa méid is féidir é, ní déantar aon chrainte nach mbíonn lán-fhásta do leagadh, ar eagla na gann-chúise amach anseo. Ní heol do dhuine ar bith an fada gearr a leanfas cúrsaí mar atá no cén cor a bhéas ar an scéal faoi cheann cúpla bliain; ach más mian linn nach rachadh admhad na hEireann i ndísc caithfimid gan aon leagadh a dhéanamh thar mar is acfuinn dúinn, óir ní blianta ach cianta a thógfadh sé coillte nua do theacht chun foirbhtheachta.

Acht Foraoiseachta, 1928.—Isé fáth an Achta so ná chun cosc a chur leis an ngearradh coille a bhí ar siúl go fóirleathan agus go mí-chuibhe ar fud na tíre, agus chun a chur in áirithe go ndéanfaí gach límistéar ina leagfaí crainte fásta d'ath-phlandáil. Tá anéileamh tar éis a theacht ar adhmad na hEireann i ngeall ar an gcuma ina bhfuil cúrsaí an aimsear seo agus tá adhmad á dhíol agus á cheannach go tiugh i gcóir gnótha déantúsan, agus b'fhearr-de é an t-adhmad san dá leigtí do na crainn fás go ceann tamaill mhaith eile. Dá bhrí sin, tá sé níos riachtanaighe anois ná ariamh a n-orduítear leis an Acht Foraoiseachta d'fheidhmiú; agus ba mhaith liom a chur ina luighe ar chách, pé beag mór iad na constaicí bhainfeas le cúrsaí trádála agus tionnscail, nach nglacfar leis sin mar leithscéal chun gan déanamh do réir an Achta. Cé gur mian leis an Roinn oibriú chun leasa Unaeraí Talmhan agus Ceannuithe Adhmaid agus Déantóirí, agus fós féachaint chuige nach mbainfidh ach an cheataí is lugha is féidir le n-a ngnóthaí san de dhruim déanamh do réir an Achta, cuirfear an dlí ar dhuine ar bith a leagfas crann gan údarás.

I rith na bliana seo caithte fuarthas 3,429 gcinn d'Iarrataisí ar cead chun crainte do leagadh agus, cé gur géilleadh dá bhfurmhór, ní foláir, i gcás ina mbítear chun mórán crann ar ghabháltas no cion mhaith de na crainte ar an ngabháltas do leagadh, go mbeadh ar chumas na Rannóige a dheimhniú dhóibh féin go ndéanfar an talamh dá nglanfar na crainte d'ath-phlandáil. Chuige seo iniúchann oifigeach cáilithe foraoiseachta an talamh agus is do réir a achair, agus ní do réir an mhéid crann a bheidh le leagadh, a mheasann seisean cadé an uimhir a bheidh le cur ina n-áit. Is cosúil go gceapann go leor daoine go n-orduítear an iomarca crann a chur san ath-phlandáil, ach ní miste cuimhneamh nach mbeidh adhmad sooibrithe le fáil, sé sin, adhmad nach mbeidh an iomad géagán agus fadharcán air, mara ndéantar na crainn do chur go dlúth ar dtús agus iad a thanaidheachan ina dhiaidh sin le go rachaidís i reimhre.

Bítear i ndáiríre nuair a cuirtear coinníoll i gceadúnas leagtha crann á rá go gcaithfear an talamh d'athchur, agus, cé go bhfuil mo Roinn-se umhal i gcomnnaí breis aimsire a lomháil i gcóir leagtha agus ath-phlandála i gcás é bheith réasúnta sin iarraidh, ba cheart dóibh seo do loirg agus do fuair ceadúnaisí ina bhfuil coinníoll ath-phlandála a thabhairt dá n-aire nach leor, in éiric coinníoll den tsórt san a shárú, fíneáil íoc. Tuigidís go mbíonn an dlí á bhriseadh aca an fhad a thugaid faillí san ath-phlandáil agus bídís deimhnitheach de ná staonfaidh an Roinn go mbeidh an talamh faoi chrainn arís.

Mr. McMenamin

I must say that, as compared with the statement on the Land Commission Vote, I am grievously disappointed with the Minister's statement on this Estimate. There have been complaints year after year about the progress made with regard to forestry. One can well appreciate that there are many diffities that the public do not see at all, arising in connection with the acquisition of land for the purpose of forestry. I take it the Department have taken a long view in this matter and they want to maintain a policy spread over a long number of years, assuming that the conditions that then existed in the world would continue to prevail. Now all that has been blown away, and I think, if there was any occasion on which a Minister could come here and ask for any reasonable sum, even by way of Supplementary Estimate, this is it. I suggest that the Minister should seek a Supplementary Estimate for a large sum in order that all the available land that is in the hands of the Land Commission, together with what can be obtained through completing the acquisition of land that they contemplate acquiring, will be prepared, and that planting will be at once proceeded with.

There is not a doubt in the world that, as sure as we are here to-night, the provision of timber for this country is going to be a very serious matter in the years ahead. This Estimate simply provides for the maintenance of the ordinary work of the Department under normal conditions, when the affairs of the world would continue normally, when world supplies of timber would become available as we required our proportion of them in the years to come. Looking at world conditions, nobody can be in doubt as to the future prospects in this matter. It is an urgent national work.

Every Deputy here, and everybody in the country who is anxious for the social welfare of our people and the economic welfare of the country, who is anxious for all that leads to social security, wants to see the question of unemployment solved here. Why do the Government not do this one thing? The war may prevent them from doing many other things, but here is a thing the war gives us an opportunity to do, and 100 per cent. of the citizens will approve of the Government doing it. There may be some aspects of this case that I do not see at the moment, but I do not think anything should be permitted to stand in the way of taking a very bold step here and now on this question.

It is patent that the statement made by the Minister is bitterly disappointing, and perhaps no useful purpose would be served by labouring it. The land acquired this year, according to the Minister, includes the Cong estate. I do not accept it that the Cong estate is land acquired for planting purposes. I take it that the Cong estate is already substantially planted. I should like to know if it is merely a question of cutting matured timber there. What amount of matured timber is on the Guinness estate, and what are the prospects of clearing and replanting the area on which the timber is to be cut down?

There are a couple of other disappointing features. A sum of £700 is given by way of grants for afforestation. I take it that would be given to county councils and other local bodies. Arbor Day has been abolished in this country. I wonder what inspired the Minister to adopt that course? A miserable sum of £700 is being given to public bodies to assist in the planting of trees in an almost treeless country. One can travel into any country in the world where trees will grow, and in few countries will one see a spectacle so pathetic, an outlook so bleak, as in this country. All public bodies will get will be £700.

One would think that an Arbor Day is most necessary in this country. I suggest that school children should be compelled, and grown-up members of families should be compelled, to do something with regard to planting trees around their homes, and they should be compelled to preserve them until they grow to maturity. I must say that under existing conditions the statement made by the Minister is terribly disappointing. Even now, I would ask him to revise it. Has he considered revising it, and adopting a bolder and more comprehensive plan? As conditions stand he is not dealing satisfactorily with this problem. It is leading nowhere. Nothing is being done to deal with the grave problem that confronts this country in the matter of timber supplies.

We all know quite well that nobody expects the Minister to take land for the purpose of growing timber, if that land can be used by men to support themselves and their families. I take it a complete survey has been made of the land that could be acquired for planting purposes. Why not grapple with that entire area here and now, and get ready to plant it forthwith? I am sure everybody in the House and outside it will support the Minister if he asks money for that purpose.

There are two small items to which I should like to refer. There is a certain sum, mentioned in Appropriations-in-Aid, that comes from shooting, the selling of timber and so on. For the last six or seven years I have drawn attention to the question of shooting rights. I am not so much concerned whether the areas involved are shot or not shot. I take it they are let and shot each year. I should like to know is care taken that, when they are let, only a proportion of the game that is on the shoot will be shot; that is to say, if there is any game on it—I do not know how they stand in that matter—is care taken that, whatever number of birds are calculated by the caretaker to be on the place, only a proportion of those birds will be shot each year? I should also like to know if large tracts of these moors, within the control of the Department, are completely denuded of game, and, if so, is the Department taking any steps to restock them. With the planting of these forests, I see provision is being made for a deer and vermin destroyer. I did not know before that the problem of having a deer destroyer in this country was a serious one. We all know the destruction of vermin is a serious matter.

The Minister is new to this Department. He is aware, of course, that the Government have put up a capital sum, and, in addition, are making an annual contribution to the Irish Tourist Board for the development of the tourist industry in the country. In view of that, the Minister will see the force of my point as regards looking after these tracks of shooting rights under the control of the Department. He should see that care is taken of them. One of the most important things to be attended to is the destruction of vermin. I see that an amount is set aside in the Vote for the payment of a man to look after that work. I wonder how is the man to be appointed. Are there to be caretakers in the various areas? If there are to be caretakers, will it be the duty of this man to superintend them and see that they destroy all vermin? I would ask the Minister to look into that, and see that whoever is in charge of the work will get it done well. In conclusion, I would ask the Minister to tell the House and the country why, in view of present world conditions, he has not taken a bolder course this year in regard to the planting of land.

Mr. Everett

It will be very pleasing information for the workers in the County Wicklow to learn that the Minister this year is seeking an increased grant of £21,000. I hope, following that increase, that the Minister will carry out the policy of his predecessors, and try to secure for the workers engaged on this industry higher wages than they are receiving at present. It has always been the policy of the Department to pay the forestry workers as high a rate of wages as that paid by public bodies in the locality. Negotiations have been proceeding for some time between the Department and the employees, but up to the present the increase demanded by the workers has not been acceded to. As a matter of fact, the workers engaged on forestry in the County Wicklow are receiving less than the rate paid by the local public bodies to their workers. I am not criticising the Minister for the work of the Department. I congratulate him on the increase he is seeking in this Vote.

Forestry work provides the only source of employment that we have in our rural areas from October to March. It absorbs some hundreds of unemployed men. There is now the best of co-operation between the workers and the inspectors of the Department. Any difficulties that arise are got over in a few days, thanks to that co-operation. I want to state that publicly, and express the hope that the present arrangement will be continued. During the past 12 months there have been no disputes and no differences arising in connection with the work going on at the forestry stations in our county, thanks, as I have said, to contact with the inspectors and the co-operation maintained between them and the workers. I hope the Minister will lend a hand in meeting the workers' demands. I am sure he is in sympathy with them and would not expect that, on short time, they should only receive a maximum of about 30/-, and in some cases 27/- a week. The grievances that used to exist about wet days have been got over and rectified. The only grievance the men have now is in regard to wages, and I hope the Minister will use his influence with the Minister for Finance to grant to the workers the increases they are seeking. Demands on behalf of the workers were put in a few months ago. While a larger number of men than usual have been maintained in certain plantations in the county this year, it has to be said, on the other side, that a larger number were dismissed in the month of March this year than in any previous year. That is serious, because there is no work available for those men, either with farmers or public bodies. I maintain that these men should be kept in employment, and that suitable work could be found to engage them during the summer period, cleaning out plantations and so on. I suggest, too, that there is plenty of work to be done in the nurseries and the plantations, work that would absorb a number of unemployed men at the moment. I wish to pay a tribute to the forestry department and the officials, for the courteous way they have met the demands of the men.

In view of the fact that many of those workers have been in State employment over a considerable number of years, they are surely entitled to some increase in their wages to meet the present high cost of living, something more than that paid by farmers in the area. They have always received 5/- a week more than the wage paid to men employed by farmers because of the fact that they were not guaranteed full time employment. The State is now paying them less than what the farmer pays to his agricultural workers who are guaranteed full time employment. In view of all the circumstances I would ask the Minister to see that those men are granted the increase they have been seeking over the past three months. They have not had a strike around the area for some time. That is some consolation, but it is due, as I have said, to the good co-operation that exists between the workers and department's officials. Those men have given good loyal service to the State, and I hope that now at the eleventh hour the Minister will send the good news to them that their demand for increased wages will be met.

General Mulcahy

Deputy McMenamin has referred to the dropping of Arbor Day by the Department. That is a very remarkable omission from this year's Estimate, when we think of the amount of money that is being extracted from the pockets of the people to pay for bacon and milk at their present high prices. We have Press advertisements inviting the people to eat more bacon and use more milk. We have that type of expenditure taken, not I admit directly by the Government, but taken directly out of the people's pockets as a result of Government policy. We have expenditure on propaganda urging the people to take more milk and more bacon. Naturally, the people would take more of both if they could afford them. I am astonished, in view of all the talk about afforestation, that the one real useful kind of propaganda on public opinion that could be carried out, not too expensively by the Department, is being dropped. A report issued by the Department, showed that a couple of years ago 1,000 schools took part in the work of Arbor Day. That figure dropped to about 500 in the last year in which we had a report. Last year £325 was voted for Arbor Day. This year nothing is being voted. That means that among the young people of the country there is not going to be the usual propaganda in favour of afforestation that there used to be in the past. I regard that as a very serious omission, particularly when I see money being dragged out of the people's pockets for propaganda with regard to matters that there need not be any propaganda about. There is another remarkable omission from the Minister's statement. We are now well into the ninth month of a war which has cut us completely off from all our sources of supply of timber, with the exception of Canadian timber.

All the timber that we used get from the Scandinavian countries we can no longer get. All the timber that we used to get from Canada, I doubt if we can get it any longer. At any rate, there is to be a very definite shortage. The position is that the timber required by Great Britain, by ourselves and other countries, used to a very considerable extent come from Scandinavia. That must now come from Canada. The share of it that is to fall to our lot cannot be very great. I asked at the end of last month whether, in view of the shortage of timber in the country, particularly in relation to house building, any efforts had been taken to stimulate and get native timber, and to control its cuttings so that the timber would be put to the most economic use. I was told that the whole business is under the most constant review in the Department of Supplies. One of the things that must strike every section of the House at the present time in the matter of the presentation of their Estimates from the various Ministers is the absolute lack of conviction or suggestion that they realise the situation in which the people of the country are working to-day. I was told that the information at the disposal of the Department of Supplies does not indicate that the statement in the first part of the question represents the position. The statement that I made in the first part of the question was that there was a shortage of imported timber for house building.

I was told by the Minister that there is not that shortage, while the fact is that there really is a very limited supply of timber in the country, and that at the present moment timber is being used in a way that is uneconomic. The position we are in is that the price of timber has gone up enormously, and that supplies of timber are almost completely jeopardised; that our requirements are great in many ways for our house building and our butter boxes, egg boxes, and boxes of various descriptions for certain of our export trade. Some timber is used to-day in the manufacture of boxes that should not be so used. By using it in that particular way, it is going to deprive important parts of our work in house building of the timber that would otherwise be available. There is plenty of suitable native timber there that should be cut now and controlled in such a way that it would be used on the class of work for which it is particularly suited. In that way, native timber suitable for purposes of that kind only would be used, and not imported timber, which under present conditions it is difficult to replace; besides it is uneconomic to use it for that class of work.

Here after nine months of war the Minister responsible for Forestry presents his Estimate, and only deals with the simple ordinary work of the Department. I can quite understand the ordinary work of the Department going on in the humdrum way as set out in the Minister's statement. But what is it all for, except it is to have timber of some kind or another to use in a satisfactory and economic way? We have timber to-day that is fit to be cut, but it is being left standing when it should not be left standing. I hear complaints of the refusal to allow timber to be cut in cases where if it is left to grow any longer it may be of no use. It may be an ornament with its foliage throughout the country, but timber that has gone beyond the point where it can be used economically and well is not an ornament to any country. We are in the situation that I suggest that the felling of suitable timber at the moment should be encouraged, organised and controlled by the Government. That would provide as much work in its own way as the planting.

I ask the Minister before he leaves this discussion not to let us in the position that all we know about the situation is that the whole business is under constant review in the Department of Supplies. I would like to know if the Department of Supplies has in any way been in touch with the Forestry Department about it? I would like to know what the Forestry Department proposes to do in view of the fact that it can be found out from people engaged in the timber trade that imported timber is to-day being used in an uneconomic way while the native timber is available if felled and prepared? The felling and working up of such timber would give employment. Even to-day some agricultural societies find it difficult to get boxes for their butter. If we are not to be in the position in which the Department of Supplies will wake up some day and find that our export trade is being injured by reason of the fact that they have not suitable boxes or packing cases, this matter will have to be taken up and promptly dealt with. But probably it will be too late before anything is done. I feel that is just like what would happen.

I have heard of some people who had land and were prepared to put it under trees. They had not the technical knowledge and they could not easily employ technical people to carry out and supervise that work. They applied to the Forestry Department for a quotation for planting that area. They were prepared to pay for the work if the Forestry Department would provide supervision for the works and carry it out as a job, like any contractor would. I understand that the Department is not prepared to do that. I would like to ask the Minister why the Department will not meet people who are anxious to have their land planted and have it done in a systematic and thorough way and pay for it.

Why is it not possible for the Department to make arrangements to meet people of that kind? Difficulties have arisen in the case of certain people who are cutting timber. In the past the replacement that was required was the planting of three or five trees for every tree cut. That has been changed now to ten trees for every one cut. What are the reasons that dictated that change? Has the Minister had any representations made to him that that was an onerous condition in certain cases, and whether he is prepared in cases in which representations were made to him to reduce the obligation as regards planting to the original figure?

The principal thing to which I want to direct the Minister's attention is that, as far as we can ascertain from the answer given on behalf of the Minister for Supplies, not the slightest attention is being given to the timber situation here. No consideration is being given to the extent to which suitable native timber which is available could be used to conserve some of the timber that we have in stock at present. Therefore, our timber situation, which is a matter of the greatest importance, is being very seriously neglected, with the result that we have an uneconomic use of timber and, therefore, loss and that we are running into a situation where very many important operations in the country will be prejudiced and injured and, perhaps, unemployment brought about by reason of the fact that we have not taken timely steps to go ahead with the felling of the suitable native timber that we have.

Mr. Norton

I only want to say a few words on this Estimate. What strikes me about it is the complete absence of vigour and drive behind either the Minister's speech or the policy of the Forestry Department. After all we are probably the most timber denuded country in Europe. One would imagine, therefore, that in an endeavour to repair our previous neglect and the previous neglect of alien administrations some serious comprehensive effort, some effort at an intensive afforestation policy, would be made in order to repair the sad neglect of afforestation in the past. Instead of that, when we look at the total amount of the Estimates and see the amount provided for forestry, we find that our afforestation activities occupy a very minor place in our agricultural and general economy.

The Minister's speech gave no indication that even yet the Department appreciate the gigantic task yet before them; nor do the activities of the Department indicate that within the lifetime of anybody now living any serious endeavour will be made to produce the timber supplies which the country is capable of producing under a well-directed forestry programme. Every country in Europe has found it desirable to make its afforestation activities a very prominent part of its general activities. Every country has found that it pays to plant timber. Some countries, which have managed to plant timber in very large quantities, have been able from time to time to reap a very substantial income by exporting that timber to all parts of the world. I do not say, of course, that we have all the natural advantages that these countries have. But we are by no means deficient in natural advantages for timber production. It seems to me that the Government and the Department do not really appreciate the task which lies ahead. They do not seem to be facing up to their real responsibility to repair the neglect of previous years.

When in opposition, Ministers, of course, were always able to express themselves as thoroughly converted to a comprehensive afforestation policy. But, once they got into the grip of the departmental machine, they spent the rest of their political lives explaining how they were wrong and how the departmental machine was right. The effect of that process of conversion of Ministers to the viewpoint of the departmental machine is that we have an afforestation programme which last year gave us a season's planting of 6,600 acres, or about 1,000 acres less than the previous season, according to the Minister's introductory statement. I should like to know from the Minister what does the Government regard as a satisfactory rate of planting. Does the planting of 6,600 acres represent the ideal achievement of the Department? When will we adequately cover this country with timber with that kind of snail-like progress? Is that the best programme that the Department can offer at a time when it is obvious to everybody that the ruinous activities of the past nine months in Europe will probably make timber a much more expensive commodity and a much scarcer commodity in future? I agree with Deputy McMenamin that now more than ever is it necessary that the Department should realise what the future has in store for countries which have no timber of their own. I should like to see a considerably greater sum of money spent on the activities of the Forestry Department. After all, the planting of timber and the creation of State forests represent a very valuable national asset. Not merely does the growing of timber improve the amenities of life, but it improves the fertility of the soil.

It also provides substantial shelter belts which are particularly necessary in an island country like this. In addition, it creates very valuable national assets which can be utilised by the nation in future. While it is maturing, the timber provides substantial employment for many of our workers in rural areas. I strongly urge the Minister, therefore, to use all his endeavours to induce the Government to realise the enormous potentialities that reside in a comprehensive afforestation policy. I would rather see money spent on afforestation than on many of the ill-considered relief schemes which are in operation at present because afforestation is a very valuable national work. It is work from which, in the course of time, you reap a very substantial revenue. I feel sure that every Party in the House will welcome and endorse a comprehensive afforestation policy, realising the ultimate benefit which a policy of that kind would confer on the nation.

Mr. Corry

We apparently cannot get from the Forestry Department the total acreage suitable for planting and their programme for planting that acreage. These are the two essential things that we require. Then there seems to be something wrong with the brain box of the inspectors who inspect land for forestry purposes. I know land which was recommended for forestry purposes and when the inspector went to inspect it he said that trees could not be grown there. That land was in a glen on one side of a river and in a glen on the other side of that river trees were growing. Anyone who travels through the country cannot but be struck by the large areas in practically every part of the country that could be planted and are not planted. When a list of these particular areas is sent up to the Department an inspector comes down and says trees will not grow there. I sent in particulars with regard to places that Deputy O'Neill knows very well. These are places that could be usefully planted because the land there is good for nothing else.

On the other hand there are estates like the one at Rosstellan where the Land Commission and the Department of Forestry are juggling with each other for the past ten or 12 years while the ratepayers are paying the piper. Surely these Departments, which are practically under the one roof, could agree on how many acres they were going to take for forestry on the Rosstellan estate. If some people live in Great Britain they should pay their debts and not have the people in these districts paying them while, at the same time, two Departments are haggling about parts of the land they will take.

It is time for that kind of thing to stop. Seeing that the question has been referred to year after year results should be forthcoming now. There should be no scarcity of suitable land for tree planting. Cork County Council repeatedly sent up offers of trees to the Department. These trees were grown at the ratepayers expense but when they were suitable for planting there were no buyers, although they were grown under careful supervision. Apparently there are certain ideas in the Forestry Department as to the class of land required for tree planting. It should be remembered that when an acre of land is planted with trees that land is tied up for 30 years. Land on which a man could make a living and support a family should not be taken for tree planting, because plenty of waste land is available for growing good timber. Farmers have proved that on their own land. Anybody who travels round the country will see that planting has been successfully carried out by farmers, and that it is foolishness on the part of inspectors from the Department to be saying that timber would not grow on such land. When officials come along trees are planted on good agricultural land that could be used for other purposes. People are also often faced with the difficulty of knowing what to do with grown timber unless they agree to sell it at impossible prices. I heard Deputy O'Neill complaining that timber could not be got for hurleys. I can provide sufficient timber to keep every club in the Twenty-Six Counties in hurleys for the next ten years if they pay for it.

The planting of timber in unsuitable places causes a great amount of trouble. With four men I spent three weeks this year trying to clear trees from a field that was being ploughed. I wonder how a man travelling after a pair of horses in a field in which there were ash trees growing could do his work. If ash is a suitable timber for hurleys, I am afraid I would not approve of having it in a field I was going to plough. The main thing I want to get the Department of Forestry to do is to state the acreage of land that is suitable for forestry and then having found the acreage to say how they are using it.

I agree with Deputy Norton that forestry is the most suitable class of work at which the unemployed could be engaged. These unemployed young men, the majority of whom are willing and anxious to work, will be unsuitable for any kind of work in a couple of years. They could be taken to camps and put to work, particularly men from the cities.

Mr. Hickey

What about those in the country towns?

Mr. Corry

The countrymen are doing their work, and there are very few of them idle. The position in the cities is that these men are not getting sufficient nourishment. The amount that they get in the way of unemployment assistance is not sufficient to keep body and soul together. They would be far better off and far healthier if they were paid at the same rates as the Volunteers, 14/- a week in camps, all found, and put to work on afforestation. I defy any young man who leaves school at 15 or 16 years of age, and who is idle until he is 21, to be able to do any work then. I suggest to the Department that it could absorb a large number of the unemployed on such work and that the money, even the 1/- extra on the income-tax that I suggested last night, about which the Irish Independent howls to-day, would be very well spent on such work instead of having young men knocking around the corners of streets. Useful work would also be done for the nation. I see no reason why it should not be done.

I have sent up lists of places suitable for planting to the Department for a number of years. I have got tired doing it. When one is ten or 12 years knocking on a door one gets tired, or is inclined to burst it in. I do not believe good results would be got in that way. In one place in my constituency there are thousands of acres that could be planted. If Deputy Hickey takes a ramble out along the Inniscarra road for ten or 12 miles, he will see land on one side that is unsuitable for anything but rough grazing for cattle, and that is growing furze. When he is tired looking at that side if he looks at the opposite side of the road he will see a similar picture. He will see plenty of suitable land that did grow timber before and grew it successfully. Then we are told that it will not grow timber now. I suggest that the Department of Forestry should put it to the test, that when they come along, examine an area and decide that the land is not suitable for forestry purposes, they fence off a quarter of an acre of that land, plant trees in it and see how they get on. I am sure the owner of the land will be only too glad to care that quarter of an acre and see that the fences are kept up until such time as it is out of danger. The opening is there. I have given a list of areas suitable for afforestation to the Department of Forestry. These areas include those from Midleton to Lisgoold and down by Kinsale. But there was no result. When the Minister is replying, he should give us a definite statement as to the area suitable for afforestation and the number of years it is going to take the Department to replant the land. I think we should have a definite statement from the Minister on these two heads and then we could discuss with some knowledge the advisability of his going fast or slow. We would, at least, know how we are going.

Mr. Nally

The sum of £229,000 is a huge sum to spend on this Vote, especially when you see the returns we have got. Under sub-head C (3), a sum of £2,495 is provided. The increase of £174 under this sub-head is, we are told —

"mainly in respect of the working of the sawmill acquired with the Guinness estate at Cong, County Mayo, which was reopened in December last. The other fixed mill operated by the Forestry Division is at Dundrum, County Tipperary, and at both these mills a large quantity of timber is sawn to local requirements."

As a result of that expenditure of £229,000, there are only two mills working and one of these is in operation only since last December. The total return we get, so far as I can see, is set out under sub-head H—£15,000, representing the Appropriations-in-Aid.

"Under this sub-head",

we are told,

"is comprised income from all sources such as grazing and cottage rents, shootings, etc., but mainly sales of timber."

We get only £15,000 in return for the £229,000 we are spending.

I wish to draw the attention of the House to an answer to a question which I put to the Minister on March 12, last. I asked the Minister:

"If he will state (a) the area and valuation of the Iveagh estate, Ashford, Cong, acquired by the Forestry Division last year, (b) the area of arable land on the estate, (c) the purchase price paid or about to be paid for the estate, (d) the number of permanent employees on the estate at the time of the purchase, (e) the number of persons now employed by the Forestry Division on the estate and (f) the number of persons who were provided with holdings on the estate since acquisition."

The Minister replied:

"The area of the Iveagh estate at Ashford, Cong, acquired for forestry purposes was 3,505 acres. The Poor Law Valuation of the estate is, approximately, £1,709 (£1,122 lands and £587 buildings). (b) The area of arable land is 300-400 acres. (c) It is not"——

This is the point to which I want to draw attention.

"—the practice to make public the price paid for land acquired for forestry purposes."

I should like to ask the Minister why he should not make public the price paid for lands acquired for this purpose. Is this a secret service Vote? I thought that was the only Vote on which we could not get information in this House. The reply proceeds:

"(d) There are no details available as to the number of permanent employees on the estate at the time of purchase."

At the time they were purchasing that land they should have ascertained the number of persons employed.

"There are at present 45 full-time and three part-time employees and eight extra men are about to be engaged. In addition, six men are engaged as carters from time to time. (f) No persons have been provided with holdings on this estate since the time of its acquisition by the Forestry Department."

There are 550 acres of the very best arable land on that estate and, so far as I know, that land is going to waste at the present time. On the Ardilaun estate, there is acute congestion and there is no reason why that land should not be handed over to the Land Commission for the purpose of relieving congestion. There were a large number of employees on that estate at the time it was taken over. I think that it was the duty of the Department to ascertain the number there and see if anything could be done for those disengaged through its action in taking over the estate. The operations of the Forestry Department in other parts of Mayo are absolutely nil. With the exception of what was done in Cong, nothing has been done. It is time for the Department to look after the other parts of Mayo. In the west, by Louisburgh and around Croagh Patrick and Westport, down as far as Mallaranny, there is any amount of land available for forestry purposes and offered to the Department for those purposes. All we get in response to those offers is the usual chorus: "We will send down an inspector". An inspector comes down. We expect to hear something from him shortly afterwards but nothing more is heard until another Parliamentary question is asked. I hope the Minister will look into that matter and, in his reply, tell us exactly the purchase price paid by the Department for the estate, if any of the land has been divided yet or if it is the intention of the Department to divide it.

Mr. Brasier

This side of the Minister's Department is very fortunate, inasmuch as no Deputy ever objects to the amount of the Forestry Vote, probably actuated by the reason that it is a Vote which is going to be at some period reproductive. The Forestry Department may be classed as a commercial concern. It is the only undertaking in the whole range of State Departments, the only concern, perhaps, which can be said to be productive. I have followed with interest over a great number of years the activities of this Department and I feel that the testimony that was paid to the work of the Department is well deserved. It is particularly fortunate this year, inasmuch as the scarcity of foreign timber has created a very great demand for native timber, which would otherwise not be used, whether in the shape of butter boxes or boxes for packing fruit. There is a horticultural enterprise adjoining my place where large quantities of timber are required for the making of boxes for packing tomatoes and sending them to the market.

At the same time, we cannot ignore the conservative character that seems to clothe all this Department's work. What is the outlook for the future? Have they any settled plan of forestry, is it simply sporadic offers that are made by individuals for land that the officials of that Department may consider suitable for afforestation, or have they, without our knowing it, a settled plan as to how they are ultimately to bring to a very much larger development the Department of which they have charge? We cannot ignore the repeated statements of Deputies from all sides of the House as to the great numbers of trees that were at one time grown in this country. We hear everyone bemoaning the fact that this country has been denuded of its magnificent forests, the large wooded tracts in which the ancient Irish fed their pigs and other animals.

Surely, if the land was at one time capable of growing timber—and it is known to Deputies that very large wooded areas on ordinary estates were cut down—it ought to be still suitable for similar use? We hear about demesnes and other extensive tracts where timber was cut down and sold at a handsome price. Surely, those lands ought to be suitable for planting again and, with the more expert knowledge of the Department in caring for them and the supervision of expert staffs, they ought to be able to produce much better results than the old land owners, who probably had not a great amount of capital or had not the skill and knowledge that the staffs of the Department have.

It is possible that land owners might be able to do something in the way of replanting, but there is this point, that they have always to face the insecurity of property. There is an insecurity attaching to any enterprise connected with land property and that would prohibit private owners from investing large sums of money. But that cannot be said of a Department of State, the staffs of which are the servants of the people. These staffs must work ultimately in the interests of the people and of the country. I suggest that the Minister might look into the possibility of devising some plan whereby, if the owners are not in a position to purchase, they will be enabled, either by way of subsidy or some other method, to plant trees on a much larger scale than they have been doing so far.

I cannot ignore the fact that the time is very favourable for the sale of timber and the Forestry Department must have considerable estates where trees can be cut down and sold. The Forestry Department are not without very considerable business instincts and we may be sure they will sell to the highest bidder; they will not give cheap bargains; they will sell to the highest bidder after their property has been well advertised. They must have considerable resources available and, when there is a market for timber, I suggest they should realise on these resources and acquire land on a much more extensive scale. On top of an increase of £25,000 in the present Vote they have all the resources of the Department available to realise money and acquire additional land.

I am quite sure that the slump that took place in the price of land during the economic war was eagerly availed of by the Forestry Department. They must have purchased land when it was available. If they did not, they were great fools, and they did not know their business, because there was land going almost for the asking; it was at a price that was almost a giving-away price. They were able to pick and choose then, and the price they gave was probably from £3 downwards per acre. They gave that for land that was suitable for agriculture. If that is the case, surely they must have ample territory available for planting.

Other speakers have referred to the vast tracts that are available in the country. Reference was made to estates in the area I represent, where the owners are very badly off and are only too eager to hand over their estates to the Land Commission. They have asked the Land Commission to intervene and Deputies representing that area have frequently brought to the notice of the Forestry Department the urgency of taking over these lands. I could mention many estates in North Cork where the Forestry Department have absolutely refused to intervene. These lands were available for planting in days gone by, but apparently they are not good enough for the Forestry Department, although they were worked formerly on a commercial basis. I need only refer the Department to the Colthurst estate at Blarney, at Inchigeela, and at Ballyvourney beyond Macroom, places that were worked on an absolutely commercial basis. What the ordinary private owner has done with, perhaps, not very many resources the Forestry Department certainly can do.

I heard from the Labour Benches a certain laudation in regard to the employment that the Department are giving. Thank God there is a Government Department that, in addition to laying up resources for this country, can also do much to relieve the unemployment situation. They can do more where they have these enormous tracts of timber which they can make use of. In many cases they have acquired land on which timber has been grown in former years and surely they can pool all their resources and make a special drive in order to carry on this very important work of reafforestation.

I do not know that planting on good land is the wisest thing in order to produce good quality timber. You may produce a soft timber like larch, and that is urgently needed at the moment. It is the only native timber we can utilise in house-building. Deputies who are members of local authorities will appreciate that one of the most difficult things to deal with in connection with the housing question is the getting of timber to carry on our house-building activities. The Minister's colleague in the Department of Local Government can give him information as to the enormous increase in prices that we have had to give for the erection of houses, largely owing to the scarcity of timber. There is this possibility of getting larch in order to use it in the construction of houses.

There is a solemn obligation on this Department to make all the use they possibly can of our present resources, and to avail themselves of the possibility, bad as the times are and serious as the outlook is for this country, of making a special drive so far as afforestation work is concerned. We know that there are many estates which the Land Commission have been asked to take over. I mentioned some of them before. There is the Thackwell estate at Rosstellan and the Foley Turpin estate near Midleton. On former occasions I mentioned these and a number of other estates that could be utilised for afforestation purposes. There is available a huge area of land for planting. I am aware that the Department have to use a certain amount of discretion, and a considerable amount of organisation, in the planting of land, because that land has to be cared for in the future. The private owner can look after his own little estate. He may have 1,000 acres or 100 acres, but, at any rate, he is able to supervise it himself. The Department, on the other hand, have to pay people to carry out the work of supervision.

One of the duties that we in the Cork County Council have to attend to is the management of a nursery. I have suggested to the Department that they should avail of the opportunity of acquiring it. It would be the means of providing them with cheap plants for planting in areas in the County Cork, if not in other parts of the country. It surely is not the duty of a local authority to engage in a commercial enterprise. I suggest to the Department that they might enter into an arrangement with the Cork County Council whereby they could acquire, at a considerable reduction, trees that are eminently suitable. I ask the Minister to give special consideration to the very large number of demesnes there are throughout the country. If there was anything like favourable encouragement given to the owners they might undertake to plant these themselves or permit the Minister to plant and collect the money over a number of years. That would be an investment which the nation would ultimately find to its advantage, for every tree planted is so much wealth, just as every beast raised and every field of corn grown is so much wealth. The man who plants timber is creating wealth in the country.

I have no hesitation in saying that the activities of the Department are being carried on at so slow a rate that one is hardly justified in calling this a Department of State. We expect much bigger things from a Department like this than we do, say, from private owners who, in many cases, are carrying on under exceptional difficulties but who, at the same time, are doing their work well. You have vast areas of land which have been planted. These have proved to be suitable for afforestation. If you are going to adopt a conservative policy, a policy of looking for quick returns you are, I suggest, going to disregard this huge asset that the country has in land that is available and suitable for planting. If you are not going to make use of that land, then I suggest to the Minister that he is wasting a great national asset that could be developed by the expert staff under his control. You are giving subsidies to farmers who plant four acres. Even four farmers can join together and plant those four acres so long as the responsibility devolves on one man. Why not extend that policy to other sections of the community who may be equally unable to use their own resources for carrying out a constructive and ultimately wealth producing project? If you do that, you will prevent this great national asset that we have in the land from being wasted.

Mr. Linehan

Whenever any question of economy comes up for discussion in the House we usually get a pet speech from the Minister for Finance in which he aggregates the various services on which Deputies desire to have more money spent. So far as forestry is concerned, I must plead guilty to that charge, because this is the one Estimate on which I feel I can cheerfully vote for an increase. We are now facing a world crisis. Looking back over the past, during the period of the British régime, of the old Department of Agriculture, to the period of the last Government and the present Government, everybody who is at all interested in the matter must feel extremely sorry that reafforestation was not dealt with on a much larger scale 50, 30 or even 20 years ago. We can all realise now that if it had been taken seriously at the time that timber was being cleared out of the country, we would now have a national asset that would be worth a great deal to-day. We all know that during the last war, particularly in the South of Ireland, almost every growing tree was cut and transported, and that following that there was absolutely no replanting done. There was nothing left but the stumps. Later, during the period of the Anglo-Irish war, large quantities of soft woods were destroyed—larch, pine and spruce—and since then those areas through the country have been left derelict.

On previous occasions, when speaking on this Vote, I have had cause to complain that this Department had ignored the area that I represent. I am glad, however, to be able to say this year that the Minister's Department have since entered the area, and done some planting at Banteer. Work in that area has been started on a minor scale. There is ample scope, however, for much more to be done. Facing west from Banteer to the Kerry border, there is a great deal of waste land that could be profitably employed in planting. I hope that, when the Department have finished their work at Banteer, they will survey the country back to the Kerry border and take steps to start planting there. The land is suitable. One thing that I think is wrong with the Department's policy is this, that they seem to look for a pretty good type of land, arable land, for planting purposes, and very frequently turn down land that is suitable for planting on the plea that it is unsuitable. That, in my opinion, cannot be said of the land I refer to. There is no earthly reason why the Department should not extend their operations in this area. A person travelling to Killarney sees this little grove on the left-hand side of Banteer, and then a bare vast expanse of country to the Kerry border. That is an area that could very well be planted, and if the work was undertaken it would add much to the scenic beauty of the district. One thing I would like to put to the Minister and it is a question with reference to the felling of timber. I understand that there has been an extra demand in the last year for permits to cut timber. I can quite understand the Department, under the present circumstances, granting permits. But I am afraid apart from the actual question of commercial supply that there is just now quite a lot of indiscriminate felling of timber going on all over the country. There are nice plantations as one might term them along the main roads. These trees are being cut away. These plantations are being destroyed mainly because of their commercial utility; from the scenic point of view this is a great loss to the appearance of the district.

If the Minister for Lands were to travel along the whole valley of the Blackwater from the county boundary right into Kerry he would find that even where the timber was left on there since the last war because it was of little commercial value, it is now being cut away bit by bit. I was rather surprised that that was being permitted. On the other hand, I know a case where a man wanted to cut down 25 pine trees on his own holding to use in the building of a hay barn. Though he had a great deal more timber on his holding it was with great difficulty he succeeded in getting the permit. He would not get the permit unless he was prepared to replant. A good point in his case was that his farm was quite useless as a holding because of the pigeons that flocked to this wood attacking his oats and wheat. Even so that man found great difficulty in getting a permit to cut those 25 trees. There may be reasons and the Department probably had reasons for this. I can quite see that one estate there has been turned into a commercial proposition. But as far as the cutting of these woods is concerned I doubt that if this thing were turned into a commercial proposition whether the commercial gain would be anywhere at all in proportion to the loss to the whole district when these little plantations are cut. The value of the timber cut off these plantations will not be so much to us nationally or individually as the loss that is caused to the appearance of the countryside. As regards the question put by a Deputy with reference to the price paid for forestry land by the Minister, I am aware the Minister did not tell him what the price paid was. I can quite see the Minister's point of view there. I recall an offer on behalf of a man who was willing to hand over 600 acres for afforestation purposes. This was farming land purchased under the Land Purchase Acts. At all events the price that man was offered when the redemption value was deducted left him practically nothing at all. Right around that farm for miles is mountain land. I do not know if the Department asked anybody whether that was valuable for forestry purposes. The argument could not be used that the planting of that land would interfere with any grazing rights. In that particular place there was no interference with grazing rights. The levels of the place made it awkward for cattle grazing.

I was glad to hear Deputy Brasier referring to the county council nursery in Cork. I was glad to hear from the Minister his statement as to the amount of money expended on purchases from the local nurseries by the Forestry Department. As the Minister knows there is a privately-owned nursery in my constituency and it is as up-to-date as any nursery in this country. That particular nursery is of great benefit to the area. They sell seedlings to farmers and they are the greatest encouragement in the world to people who are interested in having plantations in their own holdings. There is one thing that has often struck me as a great pity, I have often wondered if the Department could do anything about it. That is where people plant shelter belts or little groves in their own holdings. These sheltered belts are quite all right for a few years. Then a period comes when the timber is getting stronger. Whether it is through lack of education or not I do not know, but nothing is done to thin out the timber. In that way a number of nice shelter belts are spoiled because at this particular stage no care is taken of the timber. It is not properly thinned or looked after, and as a result you have only a number of stunted trees that can never grow up at all. I know that in a great many cases people are extremely anxious to do a bit of planting on their own.

I may be accused of advocating expenditure of money and thus an increase in taxation if I suggest the expenditure of more money on tree planting. But I agree with other Deputies here who have spoken that money is being voted in this House for 101 schemes that we could well do without. I think that if all these moneys were gathered up and placed in the Minister's hands and expended on forestry purposes the results would be much better and a good return would be given. One feels that it is too late now to start planting and one regrets that something was not done a generation or two ago. I can see nothing in this country now or for years to come that is as likely to give remunerative employment as afforestation. We are facing a period when the ordinary casual labourers will have nothing to do. I say that because apart from the employment given to men working on the roads there was hitherto one large source of employment on which they depended and that was building. Well, we know that building will be getting slack, and in rural areas there is only one definite source of employment on which we could depend in the future. That is afforestation. I would regard any money spent on that as money well spent. Nobody could say it was wasted. It gives employment and nobody could object to the Government asking money for such purposes. I say that because in the first place it is the only policy that is going to employ large-scale labour on which there will be some continuity.

It is the only work of that kind where we could attempt to put a certain number of men working for a definite period. I believe the Minister ought to consider now even when money is tight going along with a more progressive policy of afforestation. He should look for more money if necessary to carry on his schemes faster than he has been carrying them on in the past. I think it is the one thing in Ireland that so many people would be glad to support. There is no one in this country of my age who does not regret the indiscriminate cutting down of trees during the last war. If you pass through any part of the country and look round at a bare, bleak spot somebody will always say to you: "Before the trees were cut that was a beautiful spot and now there is nothing there but the butts of trees and scrub."

Any Government that would go in now for a large-scale scheme of afforestation would have the support of this House and of the country. I doubt, however, if the present Ministry will go in for such a useful piece of work. Their policy has been merely to tinker at afforestation. There was a period when people who supported forestry associations were looked upon as cranks. That was all wrong. Everybody now realises that these people had the right views and all people realise now that it was a great pity that something was not done about afforestation a generation ago. Had the country carried out planting on a huge scale at that time we would be reaping a happy harvest now. But the harvest is not there to be reaped. Afforestation is one of the things in which the Government could invest any possible money they had for the benefit of the next generation. Because of our financial problems we are piling up a huge national debt and thus heavily taxing the next generation. Extensive plantations of timber in the country would be one of the ways in which we could give back to the next generation something in return. The best way in which we can do anything to help the next generation to pay the burdens we are now laying on them is by reafforestation.

Mr. Dockrell

I should like to go a little further back in discussing this Estimate than some of the previous speakers have gone. Some speakers have referred with regret to the abolition of Arbor Day. There is one aspect of that which has not been mentioned and that is the educative effect which the holding of Arbor Day would have on the rising generation. In Dublin we have suffered very much from vandalism in the destruction of trees planted along our public thoroughfares. The holding of Arbor Day, I think, would help to instil into the younger generation a sense of the harm that can be wrought by jerking branches off a young tree. What is to become of the country if there is not an educated opinion as to the necessity for tree planting? One Deputy referred to the fact that some experts in the Department would not agree that trees could grow on one side of a river although there were trees growing on the other side. When one considers the short distance that separates the two sides of this House and when one sees some of the monstrous growths that can be reared on the opposite benches, I am not surprised at some of the Departmental experts being in difficulties.

To my mind the Minister ought to approach this matter from a slightly different angle. What is the object of the Government in connection with this Vote? Is forestry a business or is it a charity? Do the Government intend to encourage private enterprise or to proceed by Government action? I suggest that in this Vote there are three sections which ought at any rate to be separated in the Minister's mind, if not exactly in the accounts. There is, first, what I will call State forestry for want of a better term. Everybody should applaud the Government for doing a certain amount of planting, a certain amount of research, and for cultivating young trees. Then there is the aesthetic side of the matter which some Deputies mentioned. There is nothing more beautiful than a well-planted countryside.

On the commercial side we come to tree planting and after that to timber conversion. I suggest that the Government have not yet decided whether they wish to become the owners of huge forests, as the Government have done in India, or whether they should encourage private enterprise, if not to plant trees, at any rate to look after them when planted. We are all agreed as to the amount of employment that timber gives. One has only to go to Switzerland to see the wood-carving industry that is carried on in small cottages there and what remunerative employment that gives at times when the people cannot work at anything else. That being so, without putting this through an examination as a balance sheet or a business concern, I should like to ask how much of it is business. For instance, under sub-head C (3), timber conversion, the total cost is £2,400 for wages, cartage, equipment, repairs, etc. When one turns to the Appropriations-in-Aid the first item is "Saw Mills, £2,400." The second is "Large Sales of Timber." I presume that the first item refers to the cut timber, and the second to round timber sold to saw millers and other people for conversion. The third item is "Smaller Sales of Timber." That would refer, I suppose, to poles, etc. If I am right in that, surely it is a bit of a joke to suggest that £2,400 is spent on producing £2,400 worth of timber. I should like the Minister when replying to comment on that.

While I take it that there is in various districts a steady demand for what is called native timber products, such as posts for fences, gates and palings, I should like to know if any effort has been made to have these produced at a commercial price. I do not suggest that they could compete in our time with those made from timber that is imported, but they could proceed to get into step in that line. What do they reckon could be got from two feet of timber and what do they reckon could be got from a cubic foot of timber? I heard some Deputies speaking gaily about cutting timber now. I hope that timber intended for the building industry will not be cut while the sap is rising. The time to cut timber is in the autumn and the winter and then to give it some preliminary seasoning. The Minister may tell me that they can dispose of all conversions locally, I do not want that done. I believe that several firms in Dublin could sell the entire product of our sawmills in a fortnight. That will give some idea of the amount of timber that is being used here. I plead with the Minister to see that an effort is made to supply a substantial portion of our needs. In order to do that the pace must be quickened. However, there is no use quickening the pace if costs here are hopelessly high. One of the things that militates against the Government's forestry policy is that they take a comparatively small area and have to pay people to look after it. I suggest that some policy similar to that suggested by Deputy Linehan should be adopted, and that private owners should be encouraged to plant, or to have planting done by the Government over a series of years, so that the growing of timber would be made an attractive business proposition for owners of land that is not suitable for crops.

I do not suggest that this country should become one gigantic forest, or that farms on which crops could be grown should be devoted to timber, but that the waste lands on farms could be used for growing a certain amount of timber. On going through the country one notices that many of the hillsides are absolutely bare of trees. If the Minister says that trees would not grow on them nothing can be done about it. Apart from the legitimate expansion on the part of the Government in the forests they have under their control, I suggest that there could be greater expansion if the ordinary owners of land could be associated with their efforts. One of the first steps that should be taken by the Government is to consider their own attitude to the question. Do they wish to become the sole owners of timber, and the sole growers and converters of timber, or do they intend to encourage private enterprise? Most of us remember the time when there were saw mills in every county that converted the trees into timber. Most of these sawmills disappeared as the country was denuded of timber. While the Government could continue to increase the area of land for planting there must be private owners who could be brought into a planting scheme and encouraged to grow more timber if it was made profitable for them to do so. I hope the Minister will deal with these suggestions when replying.

Mr. Cogan

I feel that at a time like this all the energies of the Government should be directed towards increasing food production. For that reason, it is not desirable that there should be at present a very wide expansion of afforestation. It is invariably found that in agricultural countries conditions vary from periods of comparative prosperity to periods of comparative depression, and now, when there is a demand for food stuffs of all kinds, afforestation should not be gone in for extensively. On the other hand, during a period of agricultural depression, afforestation should be undertaken by the Government in order to provide employment for the rural population. There is now a world wide demand for foodstuffs, not only for human beings but for live stock, and any money that might be spent on work of this kind should be spent on reclaiming and improving land for the immediate cultivation of crops. I think the Minister is justified in not seeking to increase the expenditure under this head beyond what is outlined in this Vote. I agree that it is necessary that there should be a considerable amount of activity on afforestation in the Department, as this is work that must be continued from year to year if land is to be available for planting.

For that reason, I think the Minister should not give way to any demand there may be for an immediate extensive increase in the area to be acquired for afforestation. The Department should carefully survey land which is suitable with a view to acquiring it at a time when the demand for foodstuffs is not as great as it is at present.

There is another small point which I want to bring to the Minister's notice. The Department have a habit of acquiring land for afforestation which is suitable for agriculture. I have known exceptionally good land to be acquired which was capable of producing good cereal crops and had been producing such crops. I think that that policy is not in the best national interest and should not be continued. On every big estate acquired there is always a certain amount of land suitable for agricultural purposes in addition to the larger amount ideally suited to afforestation. It would always be possible to separate land of this kind so as to give holdings to uneconomic holders in the district. There is no reason why land suitable for growing crops should be planted.

Mr. F.H. Crowley

I put before the Minister a suggestion that the forestry scheme should take another form altogether and I think it would be unwise on my part not to put that suggestion forward here. In Eire there are 202,000 holdings of between 15 acres and 100 acres in area. I suggested to the Minister that he select from these 202,000 holdings 25,000 holdings and give to the proprietors of these £10 to plant them. There are 202,000 holders and you would find at least 25,000 of these into whose houses dole is going, amounting to more than £10 per head. I strongly put forward the suggestion that from the 202,000 holdings I have mentioned, the Minister select 25,000, the occupiers of which are receiving the dole and give them a grant of £10. In one year you would get 25,000 acres planted at no loss to the State. My figures may be contradicted but it is with the principle of the proposal that I am concerned. It so happens that the forestry areas which would be suitable for planting coincide with the areas in which unemployment exists.

Gearóid MacPartholáin

Ba mhaith liom fios d'fhagháil ó'n Aire i dtaobh an dul ar aghaidh atá á dhéanamh le crainnte do chur ag Seecon, in aice le Uachtar Árd, i gConamara. Tugadh sórt gealta freisín do mhuinntir Sraith Salach go gcuirfí crainnte annsin agus ba mhaith liom fios d'fhagháil ó'n Aire ar an gceist sin chó maith.

Tá na daoine ag gearán toisc go bhfuil an Roinn ag coimead estate Ashford, ag Conga, chun crainnte a chur ann agus deir siad go mba cheart 500 acraí den talamh san a leigean amach do na tionontaí beaga. Tá talamh ag teastáil uatha go géar agus iarraim ar an Aire cuid den talamh seo a thabhairt dóibh.

Mr. Derrig

I move to report progress.

Progress reported. Committee to sit again to-morrow.