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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 30 May 1940

Vol. 80 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Vote 10—Public Works and Buildings.

I move:

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £823,265 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1941, chun caiteachais i dtaobh Foirgintí Puiblí; chun Páirceanna agus Oibreachea Puiblí áirithe do chothabháil; agus chun Oibreacha Dréineála do dhéanamh agus do Chothabháil.

That a sum not exceeding £823,265 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1941, for expenditure in respect of Public Buildings; for the maintenance of certain Parks and Public Works; and for the execution and maintenance of Drainage Works.

It has been customary to take the discussion on Votes 9, 10 and 11, and also the Supplementary Estimate in connection with Vote 10, together. The salaries, wages, travelling and incidental expenses of the whole administrative staff of the Office of Public Works are borne on this Vote. The Vote also covers the staff dealing with special works financed out of the Vote for employment schemes, but it is recouped from that Vote. There are no unusual features in the provisions for 1940-41. The Estimate at £146,724 shows an increase of £13,694 over last year, due mainly to the rise in the cost-of-living bonus and to certain additional staff, particularly in the architectural branch largely for the purpose of schools. This branch has for some years been understaffed and it was necessary to make fairly considerable extensions in its personnel to cope with the growing building programme.

The reductions in Sub-heads E (1) and E (2) arise from a decision that loans under the Land Improvement and Land Law Acts are to be discontinued. Their extent has been negligible for some years, with the result that the cost of administration has been disproportionate to the amount of the loans issued. The service has for many years been confined to applicants with a valuation of £20 and under, and it will now pass to the Agricultural Credit Corporation which already deals with applications for loans from applicants with valuations in excess of that figure.

Vote 10, in which is found provision for expenditure on Public Works and Buildings, covers a wide range, including the erection of new and the maintenance of existing buildings acquired for the public service, and the rents, furniture and fuel charges incidental thereto. It also contains the estimates of expenditure and drainage works on airports and national school buildings. Difficulty has always been experienced in accurate estimation of the annual requirements of this Vote. In certain of the sub-heads, it is possible to make close forecasts, but, in others, notably such matters as purchase of sites, new works and drainage, the number of unforeseen circumstances which arise — many of them entirely outside our control—make estimation, at the best of times, a matter of considerable uncertainty. It will be readily appreciated, when the added uncertainty of the supply position at the time when these Estimates were prepared is taken into account, that there must be a considerable margin of error in this year's figures.

The net figure for 1940-41 is £1,234,765, showing a decrease of £136,563 as compared with the year just concluded. It is, nevertheless, larger than last year's actual expenditure. Whether we shall be able to reach the figure must depend to no small extent on the manner in which world conditions affect our supplies of building materials and other commodities. If they are seriously curtailed, we shall be unable to carry out our full programme; on the other hand, if there is no serious interference, our expenditure on certain items will, we hope, be considerably above our forecast. There is no need to take up time in dealing with many of the sub-heads, which are routine in their nature, and I propose to take the more important items out and refer generally to our activities under these heads.

The provision for grants for national school buildings is £175,000, £75,000 less than that inserted in last year's Estimate. The expenditure out of grant moneys on national schools has been steadily rising. In the three years, 1934 to 1937, it averaged about £130,000; in 1937-38, it rose to £160,000; in 1938-39, it rose to £197,000; and last year, it rose to approximately £230,000. These figures do not, of course, represent the full expenditure on schools. The local contribution represents a substantial additional sum. We reckon that if the war had not taken place, we should have been able to reach, if not to exceed, our estimate of £250,000 in the past year, and our commitments for 1940-41 would have been well over £300,000.

In addition to the acclerated programme for the replacement of old and obsolete school buildings, there are extensive demands for large schools in the new housing areas about Dublin and the completion of these schools is regarded as a matter of great urgency by the Department of Education. The reduction in the Estimate must not be taken as an attempt to economise at the expense of the school building programme. It represents the view—I hope an unduly pessimistic view—taken at the time the Estimates were framed of the difficulties which might beset school managers and building contractors as a result of war conditions. There will be no avoidable curtailment of expenditure on this service and if, as we hope, the figure of £175,000 proves too low, it can be dealt with by Supplementary Estimate in due course.

The largest item of expenditure is that for airports. The engineering works at the Dublin airport have been virtually completed and the civil aviation services were transferred from Baldonnel to the new aerodrome in January last. An elaborate and up-to-date system of field lighting has been installed, and the utmost care has been taken to ensure that the largest planes can land and take off in safety. The building works have taken longer than was anticipated, but they are now well on the road to completion. The provision of £313,000 for works on the Shannon airport includes the estimated expenditure for this year on laying down concrete runways and the development of an anchorage for seaplanes, as well as works on the hangars and terminal building. The contract for the concrete runways has been placed and work on them is at the moment in hands.

The programme of drainage work has necessarily been curtailed. It has been obvious to us for some years that the existing drainage code is not sufficiently elastic to permit of satisfactory schemes for many of the larger rivers. It has become increasingly impossible to find any new proposals which were not wholly uneconomic and existing districts were not being adequately maintained. The Drainage Commission, appointed towards the end of 1938, has been working strenuously throughout the year hearing evidence and investigating the various catchments in an endeavour to find a solution of the problem. We have laid before it all the information at our disposal—and this, I may say, was considerable — regarding the possibilities and requirements of the various districts. Local representations also have been received on the same subjects and it is to be hoped that the deliberations of the commission will result in presenting us with material upon which a useful programme for the future can be based. I am hopeful that that report will be available at an early date. It is well forward at the moment.

Meanwhile, we are engaged in bringing to completion our works under the Arterial Drainage Act, 1925. The sums provided in this year's Estimate are, with one exception, intended for the final clearing up of districts upon which the main works have been completed and which are in process of being brought to award. The only exception is the Kilmastulla River, which is the last under the 1925 Act dispensation. In all, 51 schemes were confirmed under this Act. All but this one have been virtually completed. Final awards are still outstanding in a number of cases, but we propose to tidy up this situation as rapidly as possible, so as to have the decks clear for action under whatever new code may emerge.

Considerable publicity has been given to complaints regarding the Barrow drainage scheme. In so far as they relate to the finances of the scheme, they are not open for discussion at this stage, as the finances are regulated by existing statutes; in so far as they relate to the works, I am quite satisfied that they are grossly exaggerated. We have had the flood conditions under pretty close observation in the most adverse circumstances and there is no doubt as to the effectiveness of the discharge. Photographs of selected areas showing wide flooding immediately after abnormal rainfall have been published as part of a Press campaign against this scheme; we have in our possession photographs of the same areas taken 24 hours later which show that the flood waters have been carried away, as it was intended they should be carried away, by the improved channels constructed under the scheme. The scheme was not designed—no drainage scheme is designed—to prevent all flooding: the cost would be prohibitive; it was designed to prevent flooding under normal conditions and to expedite the run-off of abnormal floods—both of which it has shown itself capable of doing. It is true that some of the tributary drains have fallen into bad condition due to siltage, and weed growths; there has been a considerable hold up in getting the maintenance machine into action; the difficulties have, however, been now overcome, and it is to be hoped that any arrears will be overtaken this summer. Half the cost of the maintenance works is refunded by the State for the first 35 years after award. I think that is the only case of drainage in which such provision is made.

A new drainage service appears on the Vote for the first time—hydrometric surveys. An interim report of the Drainage Commission, recognising the absence of reliable data regarding rainfall and river flows, recommended the extension of the rainfall statistics collection and the organisation of a service to record the river flows throughout the country. The Government accepted the recommendation and we are in process of installing discharge gauges and providing current velocity meters, so that this information which is essential to the scientific design of drainage works of any magnitude, may be made available and placed on record. I might mention that during the past year part of the Rotunda Gardens have been acquired for conversion into a memorial park to those who lost their lives in the struggle for freedom and that Iveagh House, the generous gift to the State of Lord Iveagh, has passed into our possession.

Vote 11—Haulbowline Dockyard — amounts in all to less than £5,000; and presents no unusual features. The decrease of £2,965 from last year's figure is mainly explained by the fact that the new watermain from the mainland to the island has been completed. The position has now been reached, as will be seen from the figure for extra Exchequer receipts arising from rents, etc., at the island, that this service is almost self-supporting.

I should like to put one or two questions to the Parliamentary Secretary on Vote 10. There is an item representing works to be undertaken by the Board of Works on behalf of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. I observe that apparently no estimate has yet been made for the erection of a new sorting office at Pearse Street, although a couple of years ago the then Minister for Posts and Telegraphs expressed the opinion that, not only would the work be put in hands soon but that it would be completed in 1941. We are now half way through 1940 and, beyond the erection of a temporary wooden annexe there, no steps appear to have been taken to rear a main building on that site, I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to give some intimation as to what progress, if any, has been made in the erection of the new main building. The present building is only a make-shift temporary arrangement which is quite unsatisfactory for housing a large staff and quite unsatisfactory as the main sorting and delivery office of the capital city of the State. Moreover, it is not possible for the present building to accommodate either the staff or the traffic during periods of heavy pressure.

I notice that, last year, a sum was voted for provision of adaptations at Thurles Post Office. Both the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, the staff and the local authority have complained of the utter unsuitability of the present office and of the grossly inadequate accommodation provided there. It was hoped last year that the Board of Works would undertake some of the adaptation work referred to, but apparently nothing has been done. One would reasonably expect the provision to be carried on this Estimate but instead of that, it is intimated that while £1,000 was voted for that work last year there is no provision in the Vote for any work on the premises this year. Would the Parliamentary Secretary say why that is so? In face of representations from another State Department that the work is urgent, in face of complaints from the staff that the office is unsuitable, and in face of complaints from the local authority that the office does not satisfactorily meet public needs, why has the Board of Works done nothing to proceed with work of that kind during the coming year?

I should also like to ascertain from the Parliamentary Secretary what the Board of Works programme is in respect of the Kildare military barracks during the current financial year. A sum of £80,000 was apparently the estimate for the work undertaken up to the 31st January, 1940. A very substantial sum of money is yet required to complete this work and I observe that only £45,000 is provided for such of the work as will be undertaken this year. The Parliamentary Secretary will understand that a very considerable amount of work remains to be done on the barracks there. While certain progress has been made—I would say, fairly substantial progress — there is still a vast amount of work to be done. I would like to learn from the Parliamentary Secretary whether it is intended during the present year to slow down the work or whether the policy of the Board of Works is to complete the barracks with the minimum delay.

I should like to get a little information in connection with the present position regarding the Kilmastulla River, to which the Parliamentary Secretary referred. What is the position at the moment: has the work actually been started?

Is it intended to proceed with the work without interruption until the scheme which has been agreed upon is finished?

That is the intention.

The Parliamentary Secretary is quite aware that this has caused a great deal of trouble, apart from the flooding. To my personal knowledge, it has destroyed a number of farms. In one farm, out of a total of 45 acres, one man has 38 acres subject to flooding. In that case the Parliamentary Secretary will see the necessity for going ahead as speedily as possible with the work. I am aware that there are many difficulties, and that whatever delay has taken place has not been due altogether to the Board of Works. Their share of the blame would be the smallest by far, and I wish to be quite fair. I was anxious to know—and I am glad to know now—from the Parliamentary Secretary that the work has actually been started and that it is intended to proceed with it. I hope that when the work has been concluded it will prove more satisfactory than under the original scheme.

I wish to raise a few matters on this Vote. First of all, I should like to pay tribute to the Board of Works for the manner in which they are handling the question of replacing obsolete, insanitary and unhygienic school buildings. At the same time, I should like to suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that, unless there is a definite shortage of supplies, the work of establishing school buildings and replacing obsolete ones should not in any way be retarded. The Parliamentary Secretary, and Deputies generally, will agree that the replacing of some of those insanitary, unhygienic obsolete buildings is absolutely necessary in the interests of the health of the children in those areas. I have to complain of the machinery connected with the work of school building. There are really three Departments involved — the Department of Finance, the Department of Education and, very largely, the Board of Works. I have made the suggestion before in this House, and I repeat it now, that it might be possible to get some kind of co-ordinating committee to deal with this very urgent problem of school buildings. There are in various parts of the country school buildings in which one would hesitate to house cattle and they have remained for years in that condition.

I have one school in mind—I may say that I am not blaming the Board of Works for delay in proceeding with the building of a new school—which was condemned as unfit for human habitation away back in 1876. As I say, I am not blaming the Board of Works for that; I am just giving an example of the condition of some of these school buildings all over the country. I make the suggestion to the Parliamentary Secretary that it might be possible to get some kind of co-ordinating committee to whom one could refer plans and in that way expedite the work of school building. The procedure at present is rather round about. One, first of all, has to go to the Department of Education to find out what their views are. Then one has to go to the Board of Works, and after that comes the question of a grant. The question of a local contribution, which is usually one of the most difficult matters in the whole procedure, arises acutely and forms a very thorny subject in many cases. I would, however, impress on the Parliamentary Secretary that it is absolutely necessary, in the interests of the health of the children, that these obsolete, insanitary buildings should be demolished and replaced by proper structures as quickly as possible.

I think provision is made in this Estimate for a new Civic Guard barracks at Commons Road, near Cork City. I hope that work will soon be proceeded with. I have spoken on this matter here in this House before and drawn attention to the condition of the existing building in which a number of Civic Guards are housed. It is a danger to health and the accommodation provided is entirely inadequate to house a sufficient number of Guards for that area. I am pretty certain that I saw some provision in this Estimate for it, but in any case it is a very necessary work and should be carried out without further delay.

Another matter to which I have drawn the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary and his Department is concerned with the renovation of the coastguard houses at Crosshaven. Portion of the premises is devoted to a Civic Guard barracks, but there are a number of houses there and I put it to the Parliamentary Secretary that it would be a very good economic proposition to renovate these houses, to put in front doors where there are no front doors at the moment, and to make each of the buildings a self-contained house. There is only a common backyard at the moment and there is no entrance from the road. It would not take very much to do the work I suggest. Some of the houses are untenanted at present because people will not take the houses in their present condition. A number of Civic Guards who live there have threatened, or are threatening, to leave the houses owing to their condition and the absence of proper facilities or privacy.

I want to know from the Parliamentary Secretary what are his intentions with regard to Haulbowline Docks. The people of Cobh are very interested in having the docks repaired so that facilities may be provided for such commercial ship repairs as may be required. I think the Parliamentary Secretary has received representations from the people of Cobh on this matter and that certain alterations are to be carried out there for certain purposes, but the people in Cobh and district are anxious that these alterations should include facilities for commercial ship repairing. At the present time, there is a tenant there, Fitzpatrick, who, I am told, is under notice to quit. He has made representations to be allowed to keep one of the sheds which he at present occupies. I know the Parliamentary Secretary has received representations on that matter also and I hope he will consider them very favourably because this man gives a certain amount of employment. Twenty-five or 30 men have been employed there in boat building and boat repairing. It constitutes a little industry in itself and it might be possible to allow this man to remain in possession of the portion of the premises that he has occupied for a number of years from the Board of Works. I hope that the representations of the people of Cobh will be favourably considered by the Parliamentary Secretary with regard to the effective repair of the dock. I am told on good authority that to provide facilities for ordinary ship repairing would not involve the expenditure of a very large sum of money. As I stated yesterday, it is the duty of the State to come to the assistance of that area as much as possible because it was the change-over from the British Government to the Irish Government that caused a good deal of the dislocation of trade and unemployment in that area. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to consider favourably the points I have put before him.

There are a couple of matters to which I want to call the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary. I was rather interested to hear Deputy Hurley refer to Cobh. While he was speaking the thought ran through my mind that since this House came into existence no place in this country has been so much talked about as Cobh. The one thing that puzzles me now is how Cobh managed to exist for the last 20 years since the changeover.

The Parliamentary Secretary knows all about it.

You might have left it to me then.

Well, it must be a very nice place, at any rate. However, what I want to draw the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary to is the question of the erection of new Gárda barracks or new schools. When such new barracks or schools are being built in any particular area, I think it would be well for the Board of Works to get into touch with the local sanitary authorities before erecting these new buildings. Very often, local authorities find that new barracks or schools have been erected, and then it is found that there is no provision for water or sewerage. For that reason I think there should be the very closest co-operation between the sanitary authorities in any particular area and the Board of Works—and particularly in rural areas —when there is any question of erecting schools or Gárda barracks. I mention these two types of buildings, because I think they are the two principal types of buildings that are erected in these rural areas. I know, for instance, of one case where a school and a barrack were erected, one on each side of the road, and it was found afterwards that there was no water available.

Where was that?

It was at the village of Ballycullane. At any rate, I think it is necessary that, when there is any decision to erect any such buildings, there should be some clear policy laid down as to the matter of co-operation between the local sanitary authorities and the Board of Works. Up to this, as far as I understand the matter, there has not been that co-operation, but, on the other hand, a certain amount of friction going on between them. I think that that friction is due to the fact that the local authorities feel that, to a certain extent, at any rate, they are being ignored all the way.

Another matter in connection with which, I think, the Board of Works might consult with the local engineer or county surveyor, is the matter of the location of these buildings. I have seen some of these buildings being erected — not recently, I admit—at a cross-roads and as close as possible to the edge of the road. I know of one case, certainly, where that has happened. It was in connection with an old building that had been burned down in the troubled times in this country, but at any rate I think that that is a matter in which the Board of Works should try to co-operate to the fullest extent with the local county engineer or surveyor. I think that, in the matter of the location of new buildings about to be erected, it is very important that there should be that co-operation. Of course, there is a Town Planning Act in operation, but outside the County of Dublin I do not think it is having very much effect, or, at any rate, will not have very much effect for some time to come. It is for that reason I think it is very important that close co-operation should exist between the Board of Works and the sanitary authority and county engineer or surveyor of the area concerned.

In connection with this matter of the building of local Gárda barracks and schools, there is another point to which I should like to refer. For instance, take the case of Courtown Harbour where the barracks have been closed down. Now, that is an area where there is a scarcity of dwellings, and yet these houses are being allowed to go into disrepair. I do not know what is the reason for that, but I do know that some of these houses were in fairly good repair, and yet, when the barracks were closed down, I understand that the Board of Works refused to repair or rebuild these houses.

Another matter to which I should like to refer is the question of drainage. The Board of Works, I understand, are carrying out drainage on the River Barrow down about New Ross. They are repairing the breach in the embankments of the River Barrow there, but there are three other breaches on that river and, as a result of these breaches, a very big amount of land has suffered. Now, this matter of the repairing of the breaches in these embankments is a very burning question so far as the local residents are concerned. I admit that the landholders, under their purchase agreements, entered into a certain agreement with regard to the upkeep of these embankments, but the position has now been reached that the local landholders could not possibly afford to pay for the repair of these embankments. The embankments put up many years ago were very good but, through one cause or another—neglect or otherwise—these breaches have occurred, and I am sure that it would cost hundreds of thousands of pounds now to repair them. These embankments were built originally, I understand, out of some free funds, and it is important for the town of New Ross and the lands surrounding that district that they should be kept in good repair.

I am afraid there is no possibility of the local landholders being able to spend sufficient money to keep these banks in repair. Of course, I suppose it will be pleaded by the Parliamentary Secretary that he has no power to deal with that matter unless there is unemployment in the area. I think, however, that that is a blot on the administration of his Department. Of course, I do not mean that that is the fault of the Parliamentary Secretary, and I am glad that there has been some change in connection with this matter by giving over money to the Ministry of Agriculture, but I do believe that in areas such as this—whether or not there is unemployment—so long as there is work of public utility to be done, such as the repair and maintenance of these large embankments on the Barrow, that work should be done and these embankments should be maintained. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to look into this matter, particularly with regard to the three breaches in the neighbourhood of New Ross—two of them to the north of New Ross and the other lower down. I think that it is very important that this work should be undertaken.

In introducing this Vote, the Parliamentary Secretary referred to a very important matter — the Barrow Drainage—affecting three counties. I do not want to duplicate any discussion on this matter, since there is a motion down on the Order Paper dealing with the same subject, which, I presume, will come on for discussion later on. I simply want to ask a question of the Parliamentary Secretary. I understood him to state that he was satisfied that the complaints made were grossly exaggerated. Am I to take it that the Parliamentary Secretary has made a close examination of this matter?

Yes. I have examined the matter and have seen the photographs in connection with this thing.

The Parliamentary Secretary has seen the photographs?

Yes, and I, personally, was over the ground within a day of some of these photographs being taken.

The Parliamentary Secretary stated that a number of the tributaries of the river were choked up with weeds and silt, and that the position is that many of the banks have burst and there is flooding over a wide area of the country. Now, taking one thing with another, and agreeing that great benefit has been done in that area by the drainage scheme, I think we can agree that the whole of that drainage work is going to be spoiled if maintenance work on these embankments is to be neglected over a number of years. The Parliamentary Secretary says that he hopes to be up with the job this year.

Actually, it is not our business. The State has been bearing the cost for the past 25 years, but it is not our responsibility.

I understand that members of the Parliamentary Secretary's own Party made representations to him with a view to securing an interview with representatives of the Barrow drainage organisation down there, or at least with a view to asking him whether he was prepared to meet Deputies representing the various counties affected, in order to discuss this matter. Has the Parliamentary Secretary considered that?

Yes. One arrangement was made for an interview, and no Deputy turned up.

Who made the arrangement?

All I say is that such an arrangement was made with me, and that no Deputy turned up.

Who made the arrangement?

A Deputy of whom the Deputy is now speaking.

I did not make the arrangement.

Oh, no; but a Deputy of his own Party.

The Parliamentary Secretary would be willing to meet representatives of the Party at a future date?

Is the Parliamentary Secretary willing to meet representatives of the Barrow drainage organisation at another date?

Is the Parliamentary Secretary willing to meet the Deputies representing the three counties affected by this matter?

The Parliamentary Secretary would be charmed to meet them.

I must say I was not aware until now that there was some confusion in this matter.

Well, I was aware of it, but on the night concerned there were not many Deputies present in the House. There was only a half an hour's notice given, and I think it was not possible to meet the Parliamentary Secretary. However, I understood that an appointment at a later date could be secured.

No further proposition was put up to me.

That matter might be arranged outside the House.

In view of what the Parliamentary Secretary has now said, I do not want to provoke any discussion on this in anticipation of discussion that may take place later on the issues raised by the Barrow Drainage Ratepayers' Association. I do put it to the Parliamentary Secretary that, if his private secretary will give reasonable notice to all the Deputies concerned of the date and time that it will be convenient for him to meet the Deputies concerned, then it will be the responsibility of any Deputy for the area if he does not turn up at the time appointed by the Parliamentary Secretary. I do think it would be of advantage to have with Deputies some of the local people who know the facts. They are living on the spot, and are naturally better acquainted with the realities of the situation than Deputies representing any of the areas involved can possibly be. Those people also have expert advisers, technical men, who can give some information to the Parliamentary Secretary and to his technical advisers. I think the Parliamentary Secretary should be agreeable to allow some of those people to see him in company with the Deputies for the two or three constituencies concerned, and I would, therefore, ask him to reconsider that. I may say that I have the greatest possible respect for the Parliamentary Secretary's technical advisers, but they are not infallible, any more than the Parliamentary Secretary is on any matter in which he takes a deep interest outside of politics.

I should like to stress a point that was made by my colleague, Deputy Allen, when he urged on the Parliamentary Secretary the necessity of the Board of Works getting into touch with the local bodies when they are about to build a school or a Gárda barracks in the rural areas. I have in mind one particular place in my constituency where a school was built in recent years. In view of the fact that it was built on a lower level than that of the village it has been found impossible to connect up that school with the sewerage system in the village. I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary will agree that that is a very bad state of affairs.

Is the Deputy suggesting that happened in recent years?

I should be glad if the Deputy would give me some particulars later.

I will do that. That, I suggest, is a thing that should not happen. Deputy Allen also referred to the village of Ballycullane where a school and a barrack were built recently. There is no water supply in the vicinity at all. Within the last two or three weeks representations were made to the County Wexford Board of Health, with a view to providing a water supply for the area. I would suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that if the Board of Works, or the contractor who carried out the work there, had got into touch with the local authority prior to the erection of those buildings, accommodation could have been arrived at with the view to the provision of a water supply on, perhaps, cheaper and easier conditions than it will be possible to do it now. I would, therefore, stress the necessity that in all cases of this kind the Board of Works, or the persons concerned, should get into touch with the local authority before carrying out works in those rural areas.

Drainage has been mentioned by practically every Deputy. I would like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary if he received recently a report from one of his inspectors in connection with a certain part of the Sow drainage in North Wexford. I want to say that a splendid job has been done in recent years by the Board of Works on the upper reaches of that river. It was an expensive job, but it was well done and seems to be very effective. In the Ballymurrin and the Ballagh areas, however, the position is still very bad.

The land owners in those areas are prepared to give every facility to the Board of Works with a view to having certain work done there. I hope, therefore, that the Parliamentary Secretary will give due consideration to the report of his inspector who, I believe, is of the opinion that work should be done in these two areas. If the work cannot be done under a drainage grant, perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary would consider doing it as part of the scheme that he outlined yesterday in connection with the reclamation of land and the improvement of farms.

Deputy Hurley also referred to the question of schools in rural areas. I, like him, want to pay a tribute to the Board of Works for the magnificent buildings they have erected in various parts of the country but, while I say that, much more remains to be done. It is to be hoped that the war situation will not interfere with the erection of very badly needed schools in some parts of the country. In my constituency some very fine new schools have been erected in recent years, but I regret that there are some very bad ones in the constituency still. I refer in particular to the school in the village of Kilrush, in the northern part of the county. The school there is very bad, one of the worst I should say in the country. There are no sanitary arrangements, and the building is so bad that it is likely to fall at any moment. During the snowfall that we had in the early part of the year the roof collapsed, while during the very severe weather of last winter it also suffered considerably. I understand that an arrangement has been arrived at between the manager of the school, the Very Rev. John O'Connor, P.P., and the Department of Education, and in view of that I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to see that the school is built this year. As I have indicated, it is in a very bad state of repair. Another school that I want to refer to is the Convent of Mercy school in Wexford. I understand that during the past fortnight advertisements were issued inviting tenders for the erection of a new school there, but while that is so I am given to understand that it is not yet certain whether the school will be built. A lot, I understand, will depend on the amount of the tenders received. The present Convent of Mercy schools in Wexford are in a very congested area, and because of that it is not possible to extend or enlarge them. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to do his best to see that the new school is built during the present year.

I desire to ask the Parliamentary Secretary a question about St. Andrew Street Post Office, and whether he has yet found who the owner of the site is. I see that the sum of £44,800 is being provided for a new post office. I presume the plans for it have been got out. St. Andrew Street is in a very important part of the city. Its situation is such that, from the town planning aspect, the site should be carefully gone into. I have the utmost respect for the Parliamentary Secretary's architects, but I understand that Government Departments are exempt from the provisions of the Town Planning Act. I should like to know whether any consideration, as between the Board of Works and the Corporation, has been given to the lay-out of the site, and when I say the site I mean the frontage. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will be able to inform me on these matters when replying.

The Parliamentary Secretary to conclude on Votes 9, 10 and 11, and Supplementary Estimate 10.

On Vote 11?

Yes. That arrangement was made at the beginning of business.

On Vote 11—Haulbowline Dockyard—I suggest that unless the Parliamentary Secretary changes his tactics the name of that ought to be changed. I never heard of a dockyard without a dock, and I respectfully suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that something ought to be done in connection with the dockyard itself. We have had it now for a considerable period, and I am glad that part of the white elephant trouble, in regard to Haulbowline, has been removed. In regard to Haulbowline Dockyard itself I want to say that appeals have been made here—and I am pretty tired of making these appeals for the last 13 or 14 years —to have something done in connection with that dockyard. I do not know what arrangements were made with the Board of Works or what compensation they received for the damage done by the people who were in possession of this place for some time, but I know that estimates were looked for afterwards and one estimate put the figure at £12,000. I understand that a recently completed survey has been made of the Haulbowline Dockyard. I wonder could the Parliamentary Secretary now tell us whether it is intended to do anything at this stage?

We all know that it is rather a joke to see the first harbour in this portion of Ireland, indeed the first harbour in the whole of Ireland, without any repair facilities whatsoever. There were repair facilities in it when it was handed over to us. Any change that has come about since or any deterioration has been due to the management of the Board of Works. If machinery were sold, well it was sold by the Board of Works. If machinery were scrapped there, it was scrapped by the Board of Works. If any damage were done to the dockyard that damage was permitted by the Board of Works. The position of the town of Cobh to-day and for a number of years is bad, and the condition of the people depending totally on the amount of employment in Haulbowline is entirely due to the fact that this dock was allowed to go into disrepair. It was allowed to be wrecked and robbed whilst under the management of the Board of Works. That surely is an unfortunate position. I raised the matter here a few years ago to ascertain whether the Board of Works had got compensation from the firm that did the damage, and if so, if that compensation was to be expended in making good the damage done. Now that a survey has been made and an estimate prepared by the Department, surely we can expect some work to be carried out there. What steps does the Parliamentary Secretary intend to take towards putting the dockyard into repair or is it the policy of the Board of Works to let it become derelict? We are entitled to some explanation. If it is the intention of the Board of Works to allow the dockyard to go derelict then we should be told so.

The Parliamentary Secretary who lives very near Cobh is well aware of the unemployment position there. He knows what has happened. He is aware that when ships are brought into Cobh in a damaged condition they have to be towed out to other countries for repairs. There are boats coming into Cobh, some the property of the Department of Defence and some belonging to the Fisheries Department, but these have to be taken elsewhere for repairs. That is very unfair and very bad treatment for Cobh. While work is awaiting to be done, the dockyard is lying idle. That is one of the things I had in mind last night when speaking on the Estimates for the Board of Works. I submit that money spent in that direction is money well spent. The employment given would be worth 100 times the money paid. Money was thrown away on roads and street improvement that might have been spent on this dockyard. If that dockyard were in proper repair we would be in a position to do our own work and we would not have to be sending these ships out of the country for repair elsewhere. Several times the local people have made appeals on this matter.

It is high time that we should know definitely where we stand as regards Haulbowline. If that dockyard were in working order, at least the boats belonging to the Department of Defence and the Fisheries Department could be repaired there and when a damaged ship came into Cork Harbour we would not be in the position that we are in at present. Some time ago a ship came in needing repairs and all that could be done in the dockyard was to throw 50 or 60 bags of cement into the ship and tow it across to England. I do not want to labour the position too much and I dislike having to make the appeal year after year but it means a great deal to the unfortunate people in my district. I again ask the Parliamentary Secretary to take the necessary steps to have the dockyard repaired. Perhaps he would tell the House what the figures of the survey and estimate were.

I would like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary when he expects the report of the Drainage Commission? I ask the question because a great many drainage schemes are held up waiting for this report. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary would urge the Drainage Commission to speed up their report as quickly as possible. If there is any hope of doing anything it should be done at once. I am aware that the smaller drainage schemes have been held up awaiting the report.

I am somewhat disappointed at not finding included in the Estimates some provision for the erection of Gárda Síochána barracks in Roscommon. I have been raising this question year after year for the last four or five years.

Can the Parliamentary Secretary take the initiative in such matters?

I do not know, but in this Estimate there is provision made for the erection of Gárda Síochána barracks.

Then the Deputy is quite in order.

Last year the Parliamentary Secretary promised me, and I might even go so far as to say that his predecessor promised me, that this matter of the building of a Gárda Síochána barracks in Roscommon was engaging the attention of the Public Works Department. But nothing has since been done. Has the Parliamentary Secretary any report on this matter? If it is any help to him I can get a report from the sanitary inspector that the present barrack is in an insanitary condition. It is unfair to expect that the Gárdaí should live in a place like that. They have to go down steps, down to an old floor, to rooms that are damp and squalid. The whole place is appalling. The State cannot have men in proper health and efficiency if they insist on their living in barracks of this sort. I have been raising the matter every year and have got any amount of promises, but nothing has been done so far.

I must say that whenever I raise the question of drainage here I get a most sympathetic hearing from the Parliamentary Secretary and my hopes are buoyed up for two or three minutes. I have a bad memory but sometimes an inconvenient one and I very clearly remember that my hopes were similarly buoyed up some years ago. Some of our speeches on this question of drainage could almost be set to music. When this matter of the Drainage Commission was first raised it was agreed that it was a very urgent one as the work waiting to be done was pressing. But where is the report? I can only compliment the Parliamentary Secretary on the annual recurrence of his spirit of optimism with regard to the promise of an early report from the commission. I had the honour of giving evidence before that commission and it struck me that it was rather large if a quick report were to be expected from it.

I know there are other commissions which were somewhat smaller that may or may not have presented reports, but certainly we have not seen them—the Government may have seen them. I understand that some of these other commissions did report rather quickly. That may be because they were in a position to make up their minds or, possibly, found the problem insuperable. Certainly, they have not been as long as this commission in presenting a report. I would say for the commission that I think they were anxious to present a report which would be found workable. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to remember the position of the people who, year after year, are waiting, not for the findings of that particular commission, but to see the actual work done. I wonder if it would be possible for the Parliamentary Secretary to depart from the usual vague reply—that he expected or hoped to get the report at an early date. Unfortunately, I was not here when he was making his preliminary statement. I do not know whether he expects or whether he merely hopes for an early presentation of the report. But, could he give us some idea, within a month or two, as to when it can be expected.

I cannot see, apart from regulations and inter-Departmental amour propre, if I may use the phrase, why the principal Departments and even the sub-departments of one Department could not work together and do at least some work there. I put it on more than one occasion, and I think the Parliamentary Secretary is fully alive to the matter, that the longer works of this kind are delayed the more expensive they become. I am afraid that we are going to be presented with another difficulty now. The outbreak of the European war, which I admit was beyond the control of the Government, may send up prices considerably, and what you might have done for £100,000, say, two years ago, may well cost £200,000 or £250,000 by the time work of this kind is undertaken. I am not saying that the Government should have foreseen these things—that is a facile criticism that I certainly should not be guilty of. But the unpleasant fact is there. If there were difficulties in the way of undertaking these things before, they certainly have not been diminished. That makes me all the more regret that at least something in the way of preventive work was not done, if necessary out of money from other Votes. In one case to which I referred, the River Maine, I gather that work was to be done by the Land Commission. But, as I say, I do not see why some work should not be done in some of the other cases as well.

I have heard the explanation—I shall not say the excuse—put forward that as a considerable amount of embankments would have to be made on the Brick and Cashin rivers, and the banks might not always run along where they are running now, that was a reason for not doing anything. I find it hard to accept that. That there will be some changes if the scheme is undertaken is probable, but that the changes will be so considerable as not to justify any expenditure now on that ground I find it hard to grasp. If a certain proportion of the money went in providing banks in that particular place, and even a small proportion of them had to be scrapped afterwards, I think that the amount of preventive work done in that way would prevent further damage and would more than compensate for that. In connection with various drainage schemes through the country—and I have taken the three Kerry ones, Maine, Brick, Akeragh, with which I am most familiar as a Deputy to illustrate my case—I know that the Department's attitude is that they are not economic, and I think the Parliamentary Secretary's definition of uneconomic would be something like this: that even if you give 100 per cent. of a grant, the upkeep might cost more than the annual value of the land.

That the realised value of the land would be less than the cost.

That is what I said. Even so, I doubt whether it would not pay to do it, though economically it might not. But may I direct his attention—I have no doubt he does not pay to these things the attention which is their due—to the statement made by a Minister with whom he is familiar, namely, the Minister for Finance, in his Budget statement of this year. Possibly he can value better than I can the worth of that statement. With a certain amount of unction—I think that the term I always give to the pronouncements of that Minister —he said he would not be deterred from doing useful work on the ground that it was uneconomic and that that would not prevent him from giving grants. I think if the Parliamentary Secretary will look up the Budget statement he will find that when I was speaking on the Budget I expressed the hope that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister would study that particular pronouncement and give it practical reference so far as drainage was concerned.

I would be amazed if the Minister gave the interpretation to his own remark that the Deputy is trying to give.

Here is what is no doubt useful work and I will tell you what I am afraid of.

I am afraid the work will be done in this way, that in ten years, or whatever time you like, there will be an agitation in that portion of the country, pressure will be put on at the wrong time, namely before an election, and a promise will be given to do that work. Whatever may be said about the uneconomic character of work of that kind, under these conditions it is certainly going to be made still more uneconomic. I assume the Parliamentary Secretary knows that I am not convinced that the expenditure of money by the Government on schemes, experimental and otherwise, is always economic. In some supplementary estimates presented in the last six months I would find it extremely difficult to convince myself of that. I put it to the Government that they are likely to spend more money uneconomically in other directions than in drainage. That may be a prejudice on my part, but I certainly believe it about the Cashin and Brick—that every scheme put up by anybody has been turned down on the grounds that it might be wrong. There is a problem there created by the tide. I suggest that a barrage would meet the situation. Probably it would. That is a work that will be done sometime. It is bad for the countryside, and creates a lot of discontent and trouble and, as I gathered from doctors living there, possibly ill health.

It is a very unsatisfactory lookout for the people that they are told that they need not expect the report of the Drainage Commission at any definite time. Hints have been dropped that if the report was brought in the Government would find it difficult to do anything in these particular cases that I put to the Minister, while the people see their land getting worse year after year. I often wondered why it was that other countries found it economic to go in for large schemes of reclamation, and how in this country, Governments got into the extraordinary conservative habit rather of finding difficulties against schemes than in finding schemes which they might attempt to carry out. I gather generally that the Parliamentary Secretary is anxious to find schemes for employment, but whether it is that the country is so prosperous, or that there are no other schemes for the unemployed, or because the Government and the Parliamentary Secretary are getting older and more conservative, I do not know what the reason is for the difficulty about these schemes. I think he will agree that the difficulty increases year after year. We are thrown back on road work. It should be remembered that when roads are made they have to be remade very often, no matter what the intentions are when a grant is given. There may not be maintenance costs immediately; but there is very often the remaking of roads as well as maintenance charges that fall on local bodies.

If he equates work of that kind with drainage I put in a plea—I do not say a pathetic plea, because I am sure the Minister's heart is sympathetic in this matter—for more practical consideration of schemes. Now that the Parliamentary Secretary has the Minister for Lands near him I ask would that not be constructive work. In view of the relations that prevail amongst them, I cannot see why the Land Commission, the drainage section, and also the unemployment section in the Board of Works could not come together and, at least, do useful preventive work. I have raised in this House the damage done by delay, and the Board of Works and the Parliamentary Secretary are fully aware of these warnings. I do not suggest that any special gift was required to give these warnings, but considerable damage was done in the last couple of years on the lower Maine. The damage done there about 18 months ago was widespread, because the banks had not been cared for. That means bigger expenditure later on for preventive work. I think my feeling is well founded, that the longer the work is postponed the bigger the problem, the more expensive it will be, and the more damage will be done. For that reason, as the Parliamentary Secretary is not in a position to tell us when we may expect the report of the drainage commission, or that even when we get it any action will be taken, I recommend him at least, to take steps to see that there is no further deterioration, and, if necessary, to have the close collaboration of the Land Commission with his own particular work in connection with the unemployment relief fund.

I gather, as far as that is concerned, that he would take up the line that that is primarily a form of relief, most of which must go into work, and that it is on road work there is most return. There is a certain amount of validity in that, but I do not think it should be pushed too far, if there is useful work to be done elsewhere. I may be prejudiced in reference to drainage, but I am very interested in these problems and especially in those that are brought before me in Kerry because they are typical of the work that should be done. I ask that, at least, some preventive work, if necessary, should be done through the co-operation of the three Departments of State.

Deputy Norton asked about the Pearse Street Post Office. That is part of the business of the Post Office Department which has not yet satisfied itself on the nature of the work to be done there, nor as to the plans, and therefore it cannot be carried out. Certain temporary work has been done to meet requirements, and that is the only function of the Board of Works.

It is not your fault.

It is not the function of the Board of Works. We have exhausted our functions there. As to Thurles, the post office people are not yet satisfied regarding their requirements there.

The same thing applies.

Yes. Kildare military barracks depends largely on the question of the supply of materials. It is being carried on in stages as rapidly as circumstances permit. Personally, I do not expect much progress there in the next few years having regard to present circumstances.

You should change the plans as well as the Ministers.

A lot of things are being changed at the present time. There is no doubt about that. The work has been started at Kilmastulla, and is proceeding without interruption, but there are difficulties which will certainly restrict certain work during the winter months.

Deputy Hurley suggested a schools' co-ordinating committee. I did not quite gather what the purpose intended was. I think it was intended that there should be some place where Deputies could go and get all the information available. I do not think that any other function was suggested. So far as co-operation can be arranged, it exists in a very close form between interests of that kind. When a school comes to be built, all sorts of interests have to be dealt with—local interests, site interests and financial interests. I am satisfied that, at present, with the special, newly-devised organisation in the Board of Works, all that can be done to get the schools built is being done. The schools section of the Office of Public Works is now well above reproach and is doing all the work that can be done. They hope to face any difficulties that exist and try to get rid of them. I think that you are in very good hands in the Board of Works so far as schools are concerned. A point was made as regards new schools and the requirements of the sanitary authorities. In building schools, barracks and other institutions our architects give every possible consideration to the surrounding circumstances. If there is a particular case in which there has been any slip-up of that kind, we shall be glad to hear of it. As I have suggested to the House before, the place to make complaints, if you want grievances remedied, is to the Board of Works in writing. Then, the staff of the Board of Works will definitely get down to those complaints. It is my policy not to give any preference in matters of that kind to questions which are raised here. I shall give the preference to those who take the ordinary method of dealing with these matters.

The ordinary method?

The right method of making complaints. We get a complaint here as regards a particular school which I have never heard of. That is the wrong way of dealing with the matter. If it were a matter which Deputies had complained of or written in about, I could have inquiries made, but to sling a lot of disordered questions at me about matters about which no complaint has been made to the office gets us nowhere. The Deputies doing that are taking advantage of the machinery of this House over and above the men who are doing their work in the proper manner. There are Deputies who never raise questions here or who only raise them when they find that they cannot get things done in the ordinary way. I do not say this by way of complaint, but for the information of people who want to get things done. If you apply in the ordinary way to the Office of Public Works, there is machinery by which a complaint or inquiry must come out of the machine if it goes in. Some odd statements made here, that there is not sufficient co-ordination between X, Y, and Z will bring us nowhere. In saying this, I want to help Deputies, and I think they know that.

We are carrying out no works at New Ross on the Barrow at present, and we have no functions in regard to these embankments of any kind, sort or description. That, I might say, is my reason for not discussing the matter with Deputies themselves. We have no function whatever in regard to this organisation. We have discharged the whole of our duties. We have no power to do anything else, and I am not prepared to argue with those who think we have.

The Parliamentary Secretary is prepared to meet a deputation of the Deputies concerned?

If the people concerned feel they have a grievance and are anxious to secure an interview——

They have an opportunity of lodging the whole of their evidence with the Drainage Commission.

This organisation has its experts. They have compiled data and they have taken flood levels at bridges over a period. They are more conversant with their problem than we are. That is why you should allow three or four of these people to accompany Deputies when receiving the deputation.

I shall read any evidence of any kind which they choose to send and I shall have it examined by my officials.

But you are not prepared to hear the people?

I want the evidence in writing. "Writing maketh the exact man." Those Deputies who have been on deputations know that the people on these deputations are supposed to say the most extravagant things. That would not carry us anywhere. If they have evidence and photographs, let them send them to me. Let them give me a series of photographs taken over a week. Photographs taken on just a particular occasion are of no use, as everybody knows.

They have level readings taken over a month. Is not that evidence?

Give it to me in writing. The Board of Works has no function in relation to the Barrow. They have done their work and exhausted their functions.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary prepared to allow Deputies to be accompanied by experts? These people have taken advice and they have their experts. Are you prepared to admit two or three of them?

I shall consider that, but I shall have to be satisfied that they are experts, not merely propagandists. I have not the slightest interest in the propagandists. Let them give me levels at particular places and evidence of that kind and I shall be delighted to have them.

The question of St. Andrew's St. Post Office was raised by Deputy Dockrell. This was held up by reason of a change of plans. The Agricultural Credit Corporation changed their original intention to have their offices there. No final plans have yet been taken out. Until that is done, we can do nothing. A question was raised about our being above the law in the matter of town planning. The mere fact that we are above the law does not mean that we ignore necessary considerations in that regard. It is the custom of the Office of Public Works to maintain the most friendly and most cordial co-operation with the Corporation even in matters in which they are not under legal obligations.

Deputy Hurley and Deputy Corry raised the question of Haulbowline dockyard. I am sorry that Deputy Corry is not here.

Would you not think it strange if they did not raise the question?

I should be very much surprised if one did and the other did not.

Deputy Brasier must have gone home.

He may be regarded as "sitting in" on this matter. All the talk amounts to, when you come to boil it down, is that something ought to be done. This question has been carefully considered over a considerable period to see whether or not there was any even moderately economic basis on which a shipyard could be established there. A committee was appointed in Cork which consisted of representatives of the lower and upper harbour, of Deputy Corry's constituency and of Deputy Hickey's constituency, experts from the Harbour Board and others. We were all there and that was the place to put up evidence to convince a very partial jury that something practical could be done. Deputy Corry was a member of that committee. No such evidence was produced. That is the answer. If and when the project is reasonably possible or there is even a hope, the matter will be treated in the most sympathetic manner, but it is not sufficient to say that we should set up a dockyard for ships that are brought in once in a while. Some better evidence than that will have to be produced.

There is a long story in relation to that yard. There was another yard at Rushbrooke which was carried on for a considerable number of years and which eventually went out of business. That was a yard which, under a previous administration, had a subsidy given on the wages for the purpose of trying to keep it economic. At the time when that yard was in process of collapse, very much the same interests came together and did everything humanly possible and investigated every likely means of finding revenue for such an organisation. We got the co-operation of the local authorities in reducing rates and, so far as unskilled labour was concerned, unskilled labour came forward and volunteered to work at time rate of wages.

I am only giving you the background of the efforts made on that occasion. Even under those circumstances, with a smaller and much more economical yard actually in full operation, it was not possible to continue. I cannot change those facts and I am not going to pretend that anything can be done. It would be quite easy for me to say that something will be done, but, so far as I know at the present moment, no case has been put forward, even on a moderately sound basis, upon which the State would be entitled to expend the very considerable sum of money which would be required to put what would be a rather uneconomic size of dock into operation as a ship-building yard.

Deputy Corry raised the question of a previous tenant of the Office of Public Works who proved to be a bad tenant. He said he never heard of a settlement in relation to that matter. The settlement in relation to that matter was disclosed in full detail to this House on, I think, the last Estimate, if not on the preceding one. It is on the records of the House and there is no difficulty in ascertaining what was done. A question was also raised with regard to an existing industry there, the size of which I think was exaggerated. In relation to that matter I may say that every consideration that is possible within the limitations of the duty of the State to the user of that building will be given. More than that we cannot do.

Deputy Allen raised the question of a Courtown coastguard house. I do not know the circumstances of that case, but I will look into the matter. We have already dealt with the New Ross embankments. As regards the matter raised by Deputy Corish in connection with schools, I have already given you the story of the gradual increase in the work which has been done in the last two years and, if it is interrupted now, it must be taken that it is interrupted very unwillingly. In the three years, 1934-37, the amount of the State grant was £130,000; in 1937-38 the amount was £160,000; in 1938-39 it was £197,000, and last year the figure was £230,000. We had budgeted to do work to the value of £250,000 and we would have done it but for certain interruptions. We probably would have been budgeting for £300,000 this year if circumstances were different.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary know anything about the Kilrush school?

I would not know the circumstances about an individual school. I do know there are numbers of schools involved, but it is really a question of getting the whole work done. We are doing the best we can, clearing off the schedule which we have and in which, no doubt, that particular school is included. All the schools that have to be done will be done as rapidly as possible. Deputy O'Sullivan raised the question of the Drainage Commission Report. He would very much like to get from me some engagement as to the date on which this thing will be completed. I should like to point out that a man who enters into an engagement may render himself liable to be sued for breach of promise and I am not in a position to enter into any definite engagement with the Deputy. It is very difficult to get a form of words which will convey to the Deputy the impression I want to convey to him, without leaving myself either under an engagement or subject to a breach of promise. I am perfectly satisfied, and I think the Deputy's experience of commissions will bear me out when I say that that commission, from the day it was set up to the present time, has been with the fullest possible energy pursuing its task of investigating the whole subject and formulating a report. It had reached the stage some time ago where the findings of the commission were to be vetted by a technical committee. This is a highly technical question.

The Parliamentary Secretary has destroyed all my hopes.

If I were the Deputy in this particular case, I would be more hopeful than I am entitled to tell him to be. I remember in the Budget discussion Deputy O'Sullivan raising a point with the Minister, and there was a suggestion that the Minister might not be too attentive to the economic aspects of a proposition. But there must be some limit to the proposition which he will accept. I think the proposition Deputy O'Sullivan has in mind is one in which the whole of the capital cost will have to be paid by the State, in which the totality of the improvement would not equal the cost of the maintenance and in which the security of the finished work would be absolutely doubtful. I do not think that is a definition of liberality in relation to the spending of public money that the Minister for Finance is going to impose upon me or upon anybody else. I have the greatest possible sympathy with the Deputy in the matter, but there is some limit, and I think his case is the absolute limit.

Vote put and agreed to.
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