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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 5 Jun 1940

Vol. 80 No. 12

County Management Bill, 1939—From the Seanad. - Finance Bill, 1940—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. The main purpose of this Bill is to give continuing effect to the taxes and duties embodied in the Financial Resolutions following the Budget, and which have statutory effect for a limited period under the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1927. That being so, it is hardly necessary to deal with them in greater detail now or with the general financial position. During the debate on the Financial Resolutions I was described as a financial strategist. It was stated that in the previous six months I created an atmosphere that people would believe that there would be a general all-round increase in taxation, and that with the general feeling of relief at no further increases in taxation, the additional impositions of November last would be forgotten. I must first of all disillusion those who rate my powers of financial strategy so highly, as there was no such sinister intention behind the Supplementary Budget of November. On the basis of the experience then obtained and on the information regarding the future conditions it was estimated that there would be a serious shrinkage of revenue for the financial year 1939-40. That we were right in our forecast and in imposing extra taxation is borne out by the actual results.

The total tax revenue for the year amounted to £26,303,000 as compared with an original estimate of £26,485,000, showing that the amount actually received was £182,000 less than the original estimate. If the Supplementary Budget had not been introduced the difference would have been much greater; so that the actual results fully justified the introduction of the Supplementary Budget. The actual yields of revenue were better than was anticipated in November, and I have already explained in my Budget Statement why such improvement occurred.

Taxation here is now at a high level, and I do not wish to gloss over that fact despite statements and implications to the contrary. We are, however, living in critical and extraordinary times and that being so it can hardly be expected that the taxation would keep at the ordinary level. Apart from the previous existing commitments, various additional items of expenditure have been forced on us by reason of the present emergency. The provision for the Army alone is £3,355,420 as compared with estimate provisions of £3,252,209 last year, £1,995,684 in 1938-39 and £1,595,810 in 1937-38, showing an increase of £1,759,610 in three years. I am afraid in view of recent happenings the estimates for this year are going to be considerably increased. This has been accompanied by increased provision for new military barracks and works in the Estimate for public works and buildings the total for which amounted to £977,546 in 1937-38 as compared with £1,234,765 in the current year.

Emergency conditions are also responsible for a good part of the increased provision for the Gárda Síochána, the Estimate for which is at present £1,924,554 as compared with £1,883,725 in 1937-38. The new Department of Supplies requires a provision of £9,883 and would cost much more but for the fact that most of the staff serving in it are on loan from other Departments and their parent Departments still bear their salaries. A similar remark applies to many of the staff in the Censorship Service and to increases in the staff of the Department of Defence. There is also an additional £150,000 provided to meet the extra bonus on Civil Service salaries.

Certain economies have been and are being effected but these are only sufficient to offset some of the increases just mentioned. Declining yields from the various heads of revenue forced us to increase certain rates in order to preserve that total yield. The total of various capital and abnormal items to be defrayed from borrowing this year is £1,194,000 as compared with an estimated figure of £2,005,000 at the time of introduction of the original Budget last year. The difference of £811,000 had accordingly to be met out of current revenue, instead of being met by borrowed moneys. These various factors combined have forced upon us the necessity for increasing taxation beyond the levels that obtained this time last year.

After these introductory general observations, I now propose to refer briefly to those sections of the Finance Bill, that have not been already covered by the Financial Resolutions or have not been referred to in the Budget statement.

Sections 1 to 5—income-tax and surtax—have already been before the House in the form of Resolutions. Section 6 has also been before the House in the form of a Resolution. I may refer briefly, however, to a misunderstanding which arose at that stage with regard to the effect of sub-paragraph (d) in which Deputy Cosgrave is particularly interested. It was suggested that this sub-paragraph has been designed to obtain some advantage for the Revenue. This is not so. The clause, as a whole, is limited to cases in which more than one individual would, under the law as it stands, be entitled to claim relief in respect of the same child. Sub-paragraph (a) provides that in such a case only one deduction of £60 will be allowed. The remaining sub-paragraphs are concerned solely with the allocation of the £60 allowance between the individuals concerned. Whatever the allocation, the total allowance will still be £60. If Deputies are not clear as to the manner in which paragraph (d) affects the allocation, I can go into it more fully on the Committee Stage of the Bill. For the moment I merely wish to make it clear that, in so far as the allowance to, say, the father of a child is reduced as a result of sub-paragraph (d), there will be a corresponding increase in the allowance to the mother.

Section 7 is a new sub-section designed to grant an extension of the relief given by Section 32 of the Finance Act, 1921, in the case of funds having for their purpose the provision of pensions for employees. The new section extends the relief so as to embrace funds set up for the purpose of providing annuities for the widows, children or dependents of deceased employees. Section 8 is a relieving clause which is designed to provide exemption from Income Tax under Schedule A in respect of premises in the occupation of the owner which are occupied and used solely for the purpose of air-raid precautions.

Section 13 terminates the duty on imported butter. The amount of butter imported is negligible and, as importation is controlled by licence, the Minister for Agriculture is satisfied that there is no necessity to retain the import duty which is being removed mainly for administrative convenience. Section 18 relates to duties on hydrocarbon oil. It has been found necessary to amend existing legislation with a view to removing certain defects which have been experienced and in order to provide certain additional powers and penalties in administering the duties. Section 20 provides a licensing provision to import, free of duty, certain protected articles. Experience shows that such licensing provision is desirable to alleviate cases of hardship or permit importation where such importation would not conflict with the protective nature of the duty.

Section 22 is intended to confer certain customs powers and privileges on the new marine force and on certain members of the Coast-Watching Service. Sections 23, 24 and 25 have already been before the House in the form of Resolutions. Section 26 provides certain relief from estate duty in the case of the estates of domiciled Irishmen killed in the present war, in relation to relief in respect of double taxation. In regard to Section 28, where the Revenue Commissioners have obtained a court judgment for the arrest of a person who has defaulted in paying any tax or duty, they are advised that under the existing law the acceptance of an instalment from such a person would deprive the State of the means of recovering the balance, and they apprehend that, if they accepted the instalment and subsequently failed to recover the balance, the Comptroller and Auditor-General might question their action. In these circumstances, Section 28 will empower them to show leniency to the taxpayer by accepting instalments from him, at his own express request, without depriving the State of the power to recover the balance.

Section 29, which relates to the Post Office Savings Bank, and the next two sections, which relate to Savings Certificates and the Trustee Savings Banks, respectively, are in the nature of interim legislation. All these matters were exhaustively examined by the Banking Commission whose comments and recommendations are interlinked with other things, such as the suggested establishment of a debt and investment council. It is the intention to promote comprehensive legislation of a definite character as soon as the Government have taken decisions on the relevant points of principle arising out of the commission's report. Pending the formulation of such definitive proposals, it has been thought well to provide, as Section 29 proposes, that the pre-1922 corpus of law and regulations, in accordance with which our Post Office Savings Bank has been operated from the beginning, shall specifically apply, subject to the minor modifications indicated which have been introduced to facilitate administration. As regards Savings Certificates, Section 30 removes doubts which arose because of certain observations made by one of the circuit judges some little time ago as to the validity of the Savings Certificates Rules made in 1926. Copies of the rules are available in the library if Deputies wish to consult them. The position generally in regard to Trustee Savings Bank is anomalous and it will be remembered that this was one of the reserved matters mentioned in the Financial Agreement with the British Government signed on the 25th April, 1938. Negotiations with the British Government will be resumed when opportunity offers and meanwhile Section 31 remedies the position in which deposits have continued to be remitted to the National Debt Commissioners. In future, all deposits will be lodged to a special account in the Bank of Ireland in the name of the Minister for Finance.

The first part of the Minister's statement to-day did not give us any greater hope or confidence in either the present or the future. It is quite true that additional taxes were imposed last November, but that was done by reason of the emergency, apart altogether from the impositions now made. We have got now to the point where, in the opinion of quite a number of people in this country, every additional imposition of taxation is, in effect, a limitation of employment and a very big factor in increasing unemployment. The sum of money proposed to be taken this year exceeds that of any other year in our history. We have no improvement in our industrial or commercial business. Even in the case of agriculture, where there has been an increase in price, there have been corresponding increases in the costs of production and increases in connection with those overhead expenses which are inseparable from a big industry of that kind. Even so far as the details of this measure are concerned, they themselves all tend in the direction of bureaucracy, and as we increase the power of the bureaucracy we add to the cost. I do not feel quite satisfied with the Minister's explanation of Section 6. My objection to that section—or rather, to sub-section (5) (d) of the Finance Act of 1920—is that it does not make plain what the law is. It is plain that power is given to the Revenue Commissioners to interpret the law, but does not say plainly what that law is. I object to that. No servant of this State should have discretion in regard to a matter of this kind and, least of all, a body like the Revenue Commissioners which, so far as the public is concerned, is responsible and answerable to nobody but themselves. Whatever the law is, it should be written down and the Revenue Commissioners should be merely the administrators. They should not be interpreters in the sense that there is no court of appeal in respect to anything which they interpret.

Much the same remark might be made in respect to Section 18. The Revenue Commissioners find, or the Minister on their behalf finds, a reason for correcting something that is in doubt and he proceeds to correct that situation by giving unlimited power into their hands. This Bill was circulated only this morning. Another Bill was also circulated this morning— the Defence Forces Bill—and by the time one had read through these two Bills there was not much opportunity available for anything else. I did not get further than Part III of this Bill. Reading over the sections rather hastily, I find that, as far as Section 18 is concerned, it simply means that more power is being given the Revenue Commissioners. It is true that it is not so absolutely given in connection with this section as with regard to others, but the whole purpose of the section is to strengthen the hands of the Revenue Commissioners without giving us any indication as to the rights of persons who are being regimented. We have the usual clause in that section that anybody who obstructs or interferes with an officer of the Revenue Commissioners shall be liable to a certain penalty. I presume there are a great many brave people in this country, but I have never come across anybody who was prepared to obstruct or to interfere with the Revenue Commissioners or any of their officers. They draw the line at that.

A rather puzzling feature in connection with Section 17 is that an article of diet called cut plug is put into a superior class to plug that is not cut. My information about these two particular types of tobacco is that one simply goes through the operation of being cut, either by the manufacturer or the trader, but that there is in reality no distinction between them. They are sold at the same price and people who do not get plug cut are generally those who either have got good knives themselves or who think that, if it were cut, it would dry more rapidly and that they would lose something in that way. The Minister may not be aware of the fact that there is a certain amount of moisture in tobacco and that the more it is cut or frayed the more it is likely to dry. Why it is that reduction in duty, if I read it correctly, is not to apply to cut plug is a little bit puzzling. I have no doubt whatever that the Revenue Commissioners will be able to explain that to the Minister's satisfaction.

With regard to other portions of the Bill and particularly those portions dealing with the Post Office Savings Bank and Trustee Savings Banks, I am afraid that the Investment Council, to which the Minister referred, will not have much to do for quite a long time. I lay claim to no more than an ordinary knowledge of figures but I find no prospect of balancing four out of the last five Budgets. Perhaps the Minister can do it but I cannot. The Minister, like every other Minister for Finance, is blaming everybody else in the world for the troubles besetting him at the moment. We all hope that he will not have to incur the very heavy expense he anticipates and that he will be able in some way to make economies. It should be remembered, when speaking about the rather heavy expense falling on the State by reason of the increased cost of living, that there is no greater contributory factor towards that increase than the Minister himself. Let us hope that as a result of the efforts of the Minister, and of the better times which we all so fervently desire in the near future, the State will be relieved of a very considerable portion of the financial burden imposed by this Bill.

I certainly should very much wish to be in the position that Deputy Cosgrave hopes for, and that, the next time we have to introduce a Budget, the condition of affairs here and in the world in general will have so much improved that our Budget will be advantageously affected. I agree that taxation is high. I was told that by many speakers who spoke in the Budget debate and who discussed the various Financial Resolutions. I said then, and I repeat now, that I have no desire whatever to assist anybody, if there be any such person, who wishes to hide that fact. I do not want to hide it. The more our people realise that taxation is already very high, the better it will be for everybody; the better it certainly will be for the Minister for Finance, because once the people in general, and members of the Dáil in particular, begin to realise the full extent of the taxation we are already bearing, I am hoping that the clamour for increased expenditure in various directions— expenditure for good purposes perhaps, but nevertheless increased expenditure which is so often demanded from all sides—will not continue or will, at any rate, be diminished. It would certainly make matters much easier for the Minister for Finance. It is quite true, as Deputy Cosgrave also states, that heavy expenditure on the part of the Government is a factor in limiting employment. I do not deny that such heavy expenditure restricts enterprise. I am sure that is so but I do not see any way of avoiding the expenditure for which we had to provide in the Budget of this year.

With regard to Section 6 (d), which we discussed the other day, I think I know a little more about it now and I hope that Deputy Cosgrave does also. I am not quite sure whether he said that he was satisfied with the explanation now given or that he was not satisfied. At any rate, it is clear to me that the £60 which is allowed for a child is the maximum amount that will be allowed whether it goes to one parent or is divided between two. The first three clauses of Section 6—Clauses (a), (b) and (c)—deal with the amount, £60; and the other clause, as I have already said, lays down the law as to how the £60 is to be divided, in the proportions between the two parents.

But it is not laid down who divides it. It is not laid down in Clause (d). Is it the Revenue Commissioners?

No, I do not think the Revenue Commissioners have an absolute discretion, as the law stands. I think that the section does not show that they are the determining body. Within the law, however, they have not absolute discretion, I think.

I think they have.

Well, I am not satisfied about that.

There is nothing laid down there as to how it is to be done.

Well, I am sure that the Deputy knows that there is a variety of cases and that all sorts of conditions might arise, and if one were to lay down all these conditions in the Act and to specify how the Revenue Commissioners should divide that £60 in every type of case, it would mean that you would have an enormous Bill. I think you cannot do more than give a general direction. The Deputy seems to have a very great distrust of the Revenue Commissioners.

Oh, much more that the Minister——

I am afraid so.

——because he is giving them the power.

I am, but in reality I am not giving them any increased power or any power that was not there already. I am not increasing their power in any direction or giving them any greater discretion. From my own experience, as I said the other day, I would be prepared to give them discretion—that is, from my own personal experience of them as an ordinary taxpayer. Certainly, the Revenue Commissioners that I have met, both past commissioners and present commissioners, always gave me a square deal. I do not think there is any discretion there that is unwarranted; in fact, the discretion is restricted to the finest possible point, even in regard to this particular section with which Deputy Cosgrave is dissatisfied. Generally speaking, the Revenue Commissioners have not got a discretion, as they are tied up by the Income-tax Acts and the Finance Act of each year. I think it is not true to say that there is no appeal. First of all, there is an appeal to the Special Commissioners. The Special Commissioners of income-tax can review the assessments and allowances, and then there is an appeal in certain cases to the courts also, at any rate so far as assessments are involved.

In law, but not in fact.

In law, at any rate. However, I am not very familiar with that matter.

You see, I know them much better than the Minister knows them.

Evidently. Of course, as Minister, my experience is short, but as an ordinary taxpayer my experience extends over a good number of years, and I have nothing to complain of with regard to their treatment of me, at any rate. With regard to the question of tobaccos, I am not an authority on tobacco of any kind. I know the names of the various tobaccos and, when I meet a generous friend, occasionally, I know a good cigar and am able to enjoy it, but that is about the extent of my knowledge of tobaccos. I understand, however, that there is a sharp differentiation made by the manufacturers between plug tobaccos and cut plug tobaccos. The plug tobacco may be in the form of bars or squares, of two ounces weight and so on, whereas cut plug is in competition with flake tobacco, and both cut plug and flake tobaccos are sold at higher prices than plug tobacco. I do not know if that adds to the Deputy's knowledge or not, but I admit that it is something with which I was unacquainted before.

Is there not the possibility of evasion of the duty there? If the same quality tobacco is not cut into slices, but left in bars or squares, by the manufacturer, is there not room for evasion?

It would become subject in that case to the reduction. They would get the benefit of the reduction.

It seems to me that there is rather an open door there.

Well, it is rather difficult to arrange, but probably, with the ingenuity that Deputy Cosgrave ascribes to the Revenue Commissioners, they will find a way out of that.

Oh, you may be sure they will—if not legally, then non-legally.

When is the penny coming off that tobacco?

The date is not fixed yet: we have been in consultation with the manufacturers, and I had hoped to be able to arrange it for the 1st July, but I am not certain that it will be possible to afford the relief by that date. However, the relief will be available soon after.

Lots of people would like to know.

Yes, I know that.

Question put.
The Dáil divided; Tá, 49; Níl, 32.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Cleary, Mícheál.
  • Cooney, Eamonn.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Keane, John J.
  • Kelly, James P.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Loughman, Francis.
  • Lynch, James B.
  • McCann, John.
  • McDevitt, Henry A.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Meaney, Cornelius.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Morrissey, Michael.
  • Mullen, Thomas.
  • Munnelly, John.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Loghlen, Peter J.
  • Rice, Brigid M.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
  • Walsh, Laurence J.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Conn.

Níl

  • Bennett, George C.
  • Benson, Ernest E.
  • Brasier, Brooke.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred (Junior).
  • Cole, John J.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Curran, Richard.
  • Davin, William.
  • Dockrell, Henry M.
  • Doyle, Peader S.
  • Esmonde, John L.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Hannigan, Joseph.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Hughes, James.
  • Hurley, Jeremiah.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGovern, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Sullivan, John M.
  • Pattison, James P.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Smith and S. Brady; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Bennett.
Motion declared carried.
Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 12th June.
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