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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 6 Jun 1940

Vol. 80 No. 13

Supplementary Estimate. - Third Employment Period Order, 1940—Motion to Annul.

I move:—

That the Unemployment Assistance, (Third Employment Period) Order, 1940, made by the Minister for Industry and Commerce on the 24th day of May, 1940, and presented to Dáil Eireann on the 30th day of May, 1940, be and is hereby annulled.

It is with very sincere regret that I find it necessary to move this motion asking to have annulled the Third Employment Period Order. Following as it does Period Orders 1 and 2, if taken cumulatively, this practically means the wiping out from vast sections of the people the benefits conferred on them by the Unemployment Assistance Act of 1933. The first of these orders, as we know, has taken benefits away from people in rural areas—from single men, widowers without dependants and people with a valuation of £4 and over.

These Orders have been resisted in the House by the Labour Party each time they were introduced as being an unwarranted interference with that section of the community who most need the help and assistance of the State and who were given that assistance by an Act placed on the Statute Book, only to be toyed with year after year by a stroke of the Minister's pen in the shape of an Unemployment Period Order. But certainly the extreme limit was reached when Period Order No. 3 came to be introduced in the year 1940, beyond all years, at a time when it is the desire of everybody to have co-operation and contentment, when appeals are being made from every platform and from the Government Benches to have a united front so as to pull together to try to tide the country over the serious times in which we are and the much more serious times that seem to be lying ahead. That is the time selected to strike off married men with families from the benefits of the Unemployment Assistance Act in nearly all the rural areas. In fact, outside of the municipal and urban towns and some small scheduled areas in the country districts, the entire country is affected by this Period Order.

I suggest that that Order of the Government would be stupid at any time, that it would be perfectly unjustified and unwarranted, but that in present circumstances it is criminally stupid and, in its effect, will be calculated to defeat the best intentions of those who are trying to rally and consolidate the people in a solid phalanx. What can be the reaction to appeals for co-operation of married men with families, who it is not suggested have got work, and who have been enjoying, if you like to use the word, this miserable pittance for the past few years, trying to keep body and soul together on a maximum of 14/- per week, no matter how many children they may have? Whether they have one, two, three or ten children, outside the scheduled areas set out in the Order they are to be deprived of any State benefit whatever. They will have to live somehow. No effort has been made to provide work for them. The previous Government did not attempt to cater for the unemployed. They said it was not their job, that it was the function of the private employer. The Fianna Fáil Government changed that dictum in response to the appeals of the Labour Party in 1933, and they implemented their promise by the passing of the Unemployment Assistance Act, setting out definitely that they believed that citizens of the country were entitled to have work provided for them, and that until such work was provided they were entitled to a maintenance allowance. A certain meagre, miserable standard was set up which was never intended, according to Government spokesmen themselves, to be a living wage standard, but merely to tide the people over between one period of unemployment and another.

Unfortunately, the plan for absorbing the people into employment never materialised. The problem has grown bigger and the only action that the Government take is to slow down year after year their progressive action of 1933, until we find the depths of retrogression reached in 1940. They seem to have regretted ever having been so progressive as to pass this legislation, and the method of administration adopted is sufficient evidence of that. It is hedged round with all kinds of provisions to ensure that there will not be any nefarious practices carried on, that the State funds are adequately protected and safeguarded. To that we have no objection.

But, on top of the necessary safeguards that one could reasonably agree to, they have had recourse to what I have protested against over and over again in this House, the anonymous letter system. This is the only Department I know of that accepts anonymous letters without question and allows them to be the medium for robbing men of unemployment assistance. On receipt of one of these letters signed "Captain Moonlight" or something like that, it is the duty of the labour exchange manager to deprive a recipient of unemployment assistance of any further money without further investigation. Subsequent investigation may prove the man to have been wronged by this anonymous scribe, but months may elapse before unemployment assistance is restored to that man and his family. I mention that to show that, in addition to the investigations made by the officers of the Department and the Gárda Síochána, we also have these anonymous letter writers, who we have been told from the Ministerial Benches here are not going to be discarded, as they are a very useful and fruitful source for protecting State funds. With all its elaborate machinery to protect State funds and give effect to an Act of Parliament which was intended to see that nobody should get benefit who was not entitled to get it, what is the justification for the introduction of this Third Period Order, with its scheduled area covering a territory running mainly down the west coast?

It is difficult at this stage to ascertain the number of people directly affected by this order, but I think I am safe in saying that the number of men affected will be between 30,000 and 40,000. If we estimate that each of these is responsible for three dependants, we have immediately between 120,000 and 160,000 people who are to be given no benefit from this until the end of October next. They have to go somewhere for assistance. They have to go to the home assistance officer. There is quite sufficient strain at present on the rating authorities, and the amount they are capable of giving in the way of relief is hopelessly inadequate.

I have a letter here—one of many of the same kind—which is by no means congratulatory, and I would not like to read it in full. It is from a poor man living within three miles of Limerick, at a place called Coonagh. He says that he is the father of four children—one five years old, one two years old, and twins six weeks old. He has been struck off unemployment assistance, and says that he has to go to the dispensary for home assistance, and is only getting 9/- per week. He points out how he has been struggling to exist on 14/- a week unemployment assistance. There is no work in his locality. He cannot get work in the City of Limerick, because the schemes there are required for the relief of people in the city, where we have considerably more than 4,000 unemployed, and are at our wits' end to provide relief schemes for them. This man and others like him who are outside the borough cannot get employment in the city, and there is no work in the county for them.

Without any investigation whatever, and regardless of the consequences, the Minister by his Order strikes off between 120,000 and 160,000 persons, and compels them to live without any assistance whatever so far as State funds are concerned. If you average the income from this assistance at 10/- a week, on that basis, possibly £300,000 is going to be saved. That seems to be giving further expression to the desire of Ministers and the Government to get away from the progressive legislation they passed in 1933, for which they earned certain encomiums. Having departed from the practice that hitherto obtained they now seem to want to get back to the position of having no responsibility for unemployment. That £300,000 is not going to be saved to the State. It means that £300,000 is going to be withdrawn from circulation in rural areas by poor people who were living on what has been mis-called the dole. The money will be withdrawn from circulation amongst shopkeepers and others, while the people who were dependent on it will have to go some place else to get assistance. The rates will have to come to the rescue.

The rating authorities outside municipal and urban areas have not been touched so far. At present municipal and urban authorities have been subscribing generously to the Government in order to help to meet the charge on the Central Fund, but the rural areas have not been called upon to do so. It looks as if they will be called upon to do so now. Viewing the matter from every angle, I consider this to be the most indefensible and stupid action taken since the Government came into office. There seems to have been nothing but utter disregard for the serious situation in which we find ourselves. From expressions of opinion I heard in Cork, Limerick and Kerry, counties which I have visited since the order was made, I never heard a more genuine outburst of indignation than at this period order. I listened with patience to hear what explanation the Minister had for his action. I am satisfied that he will not give a satisfactory explanation now. He may build a barrier around the question, but I am satisfied there is no satisfactory explanation, having regard to the fact that our unemployment problem to-day is as serious as it is. The period order was put into operation for the first time in February this year. It was put back to coincide with the new summer time.

The order generally came into force in March, but it came into force in February this year to coincide with summer time, and we were glibly told that the figures of unemployment had been reduced from 117,000 to 85,000. As a matter of fact, they were not reduced, but there was a transfer of names from one side of the labour exchange to another. That does not put food into the stomachs of hungry children. The people affected have not been employed. Their only consolation now is that the married men with their families can go where they like, and the devil take the hindmost. We will probably be told, arising out of the fuel shortage, that they can get plenty of work on the bogs. I was on the bogs in Kerry last Monday, and I had discussions with some of the people affected by this order. Those who are on the bogs cannot eat turf. It is no substitute to give them freedom to roam the bogs and to cut turf and make that an excuse for withdrawing the miserable pittance they got to keep their wives and families alive. Can they be blamed if they are accused of lack of patriotism, or if they suggest that it did not matter to them who came to rule this country, because they could not be in a worse position?

This seems to be the last straw, and the Government's indication of having no mercy for citizens who should be as much entitled to consideration as the biggest merchants. They only ask the right to live. They are prepared to work if work is provided. No work is available, and if it were available the machinery of the Act would prevent them drawing benefit. If that is the case what is the necessity for this period order? Either there is work for the people or there is not. If there is work they will not draw the dole. If there is not work is the Minister prepared on behalf of the Government to condemn these people to exist on the wind, by withdrawing from them a right granted by a majority of the House, and that should be as sacred as any legislation that was passed by it? It is not going to create respect for our laws if legislation dealing with one section can be terminated to suit Ministers every time there is a fad fictitiously to save £300,000. But the £300,000 will not be saved. It is being stolen in the worst possible fashion, and will create dissension, discord and ill-will at a time when appeals are being made for a united front to harmonise all our forces to do what is best for the nation in the period we are passing through. I ask the House to assert its authority so that there should be more respect for legislation passed by it, and to give an answer to the Minister in the only effective way it can be given, by annulling this order by a vote of the House.

The annulment will have this effect, that the 130,000 people dependent on the 30,000 or 40,000 persons affected by the order, will bless the men who vote to give them assistance to which they had a God-given right. If the Minister wants to test the feelings of the House, as a gesture of the unity shown by all Parties, I ask if he is prepared to take off the Whips, and to allow a free vote of all Parties. I believe that even in the Fianna Fáil ranks the resentment against this order is as keen as it is amongst Deputies in other Parties. Of course, members of the Government Party are bound by Party ties, and the Minister will scarcely agree to the suggestion to take off the Whips but, as a matter of duty, if there is any sincerity in the talk about concord and unity, it is up to him to allow the House, which was responsible for this legislation, to have a free vote to determine whether or not that legislation will be treated with contempt and contumely. If that is done I have no hesitation in saying that the Minister will not get half a dozen to support him in this nefarious proposal and that the order will be annulled.

I second the motion. I do not think this is a Party matter at all, but that the Minister is viewing it in a different light. The fact is that we have had already two unemployment period orders. The Minister will agree that during the two years 31,000 unemployed people were taken off the official register and put on to another. I have some idea of the position in the rural areas. The Minister made an order taking off 31,000 people who were unable to find employment, but a number of them have been put on the home assistance register in the Cork area, where the position is a peculiar one as far as the period order is concerned. There appears to be evidence that the Minister did not consult experienced officers in the Cork Labour Exchange. If there was any consultation with these officers, it is surprising what an effect this order had in Cork. We have over 2,000 houses built outside the city area, the tenants of which are drawn from the city. I am informed that at least 200 people will be cut off benefit by this order who up to now were receiving 14/-. In the case of those with five in family they received a maximum of 14/- which was supplemented by 8/- from the home assistance authorities. Under the period order these people will lose the 14/- they got from the labour exchange and will have to depend on home assistance. If the Minister had consulted the responsible officers in the labour exchange he would find that in districts like Blackrock, Douglas and Ballincolling a number of workers had the sad experience of having to depend for the past two years on what they got from the rates.

I would appeal to the Minister not to look upon this as a Party matter. We are not looking upon it as a Party matter. I wish to state definitely that there has been a very serious reaction. In Cork area on last Monday night there was a little demonstration by some of those people and there was a question from some of them when they invaded the corporation at Tuesday's meeting. A resolution was passed there asking the Minister to annul the order. There is no reason in the world why some of those people should get unemployment assistance if they could get work on the land. They could be taken from the labour exchange. It is not fair to cut them off when there is no work for them. It means cutting off men with large families without any notice. I appeal to the Minister to annual the order until some serious consideration can be given to the matter.

For more reasons than one I am asking that. I think it happened at a very wrong period. If someone came along to try to create discord, he could not come at a more opportune period. I do not agree that it should be treated as a Party matter. Deputies from the Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael Benches, when they look into it, will also agree with the appeal that I make in all seriousness to the Minister to annual the order, until there is some serious investigation into the matter. The Taoiseach has spoken about the need for gaining the confidence of those people. There is a request for co-operation and for assistance in national defence, but there cannot be co-operation of the people in general while they are being treated in that fashion without consideration for their circumstances.

We have had a serious problem in the Cork area for some time. People are not able to pay the rent of the new houses and now, because of the Employment Period Order, we had a demonstration in Cork last Tuesday night. These things are not a help and only create discontent. Certain elements will thrive on that. I second Deputy Keyes and I appeal to the Minister—without considering the question of securing political points—to annual the order until such time as serious consideration has been given to the matter.

I rise to support the motion which has been proposed by Deputy Keyes and seconded by Deputy Hickey. I do so more particularly because I have a very definite mandate from the board of assistance, of which both Deputy Hickey and I are members, to do everything in our power to have this order annulled. The amount passed for home assistance in Cork has gone up enormously, due entirely to the increase in the cost of living and to the larger amounts which had to be given to those who are applicants for home assistance and who are not eligible for unemployment assistance, or where the amount that has been given to them is inadequate to sustain those who are unfortunate enough to have to appeal for assistance. At a time when the cost of living has mounted up rapidly, it is an act of positive cruelty to deprive these men of what they have been looking upon —I suppose, once legislation has been passed—as a right.

To deprive them suddenly of what they had hitherto looked upon as a means of livelihood is a species of cruelty which I, at any rate, regard as uncalled for from the members of what is looked upon as a democratic Government. Whatever may be the views of certain people with regard to unemployment assistance, there is no question that the money is being spent again amongst the community. Those who are shopkeepers and traders, at any rate, get the benefit of that particular sum, and it is not a sum lost to the country, as apparently seems to be the idea of those who have stopped this allowance.

Deputy Hickey has referred to the difficulty these people have in paying their rents. The same thing applies to South Cork Board of Health, where the members are the same as that on the board of assistance. The people are being given houses "fit for human beings to live in", and of a nature that both the boards of health and the Government have set up as a very high standard. These people are being given this class of house to live in, and at the same time they have no means of livelihood to enjoy them and are forced to fall back on the home assistance board to give them what the board itself looks upon as the duty of the Government to give. Once you have conferred a privilege or a certain benefit upon the community, to withdraw that benefit is worse than if you never gave that benefit at all. On an occasion when the Government is coming into office, or on any other particular occasion, the standard of the community may be raised by certain payments. Where they withdraw those payments, they are doing something worse than if they had never given them and are inflicting a greater measure of cruelty. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance referred to the diminishing schemes for unemployment works. After all, does not that imply that the men who would benefit by those schemes must fall back on unemployment assistance? To pass a small vote for that, and cut them off from benefit on the other hand and throw them back on the rates—which are mounting as rapidly as they possibly can, until they have reached an unbearable figure at the present moment—means the community is suffering, apart altogether from the still greater suffering on these people.

There is no question at all about it: I think all the Cork Deputies, and certainly the citizens of Cork City and Cork County, are at one in this matter, in resenting the action of the Minister in cutting off this unemployment assistance to married men, particularly in cases where they have large families. It means that an undue degree of suffering is going to obtain, where there are people who cannot get work at the present time. Unemployment, undoubtedly, is diminishing at the present time and the obligation rests on the Government to maintain at least the most helpless class of its citizens. I am at one with the Labour Party, and I am sure every Party in this House is at one with me, in asking to have this order annulled.

I agree with what has been said by Deputies Keyes, Hickey and Brasier. I look upon this as a colossal blunder, in so far as the action of the Government is concerned. It appears to me to be an indiscriminate action, without any thought at all having been given to the effect of the order when it is put into operation. Within recent times, when the cost of life necessities has been soaring, this Party were looking forward to the Government giving an increase in unemployment benefit, not only in the rural areas but also in the city areas. Now we find ourselves confronted with a situation whereby married men in rural areas are being taken off unemployment assistance altogether.

As has been pointed out by the three Deputies who have spoken, it is very hard to understand the Government at this juncture. At the moment, an appeal is being made by the Government for co-operation. That appeal has been answered by the various Parties in this House, with the result that to-day we have the people united in an effort to protect the country, if it should be in any danger in months to come. How does the Government expect to get the co-operation of the people in the rural areas, when by a stroke of the pen they are taking their names off the unemployment register? I have heard it said over the week-end that in so far as this action is concerned, the Government are deliberately doing this in order to force people to join the Army. That is a feeling that is in the country—one that is being broadcast—and that is what is being said by the unfortunate people whom the Minister has decided to leave without unemployment benefit.

Deputy Hickey has referred to the effect that this will have upon certain people living on the outskirts of Cork City. That particular situation applies in various urban areas in Ireland. At the meeting of the board of health in County Wexford on Monday last a deputation was received, pointing out that because of the fact that this order was being put into operation, they of necessity had to seek home help from the board. The board of health are faced with the situation now that they have to try to maintain those people who have been taken off the unemployment register by the Minister. Practically all these people are living on the outskirts of the town and are town workers. They know nothing, good, bad or indifferent, about agricultural work, even if there was agricultural work there to be done. While employed, they had been occupied in doing the work of builders' labourers, carters and work of the kind usually found in towns. I should like the Minister to let us know what steps were taken to ascertain whether there was work in the rural areas for these people or not. Has any application been made by farmers to the labour exchanges to know whether labour is available for them or not? Surely it would be time enough for the Minister to take action of this kind if farmers had made application to the labour exchanges and it was found that no labour was available.

Within the last few weeks we had a Budget statement from the Minister for Finance. No reference was made in that Budget statement which would lead anybody to infer that such measures as the Government now propose to carry into operation were contemplated. Surely if the Government had anything like that in their minds at that time, it would be only proper that the Government should take the House into their confidence so as to enable the House to make proper financial provision for unemployment assistance if they did not think that the provision made in the Budget was sufficient to cater for the needs of the unemployed.

I have referred to the deputation that came before the Wexford County Board of Health on Monday last. These men are living in new houses erected by the board of health, immediately outside the town of Enniscorthy. As I said before, they have always been town workers. Some of them were taken out of the town and put into these houses. Their rent is 3/6 per week and now they find themselves without any money at all to meet that rent. Three and six pence a week is a high rent for a man who has a weekly wage; 3/6d. a week is high enough, in all conscience, for a man who has 14/- a week; but 3/6d. a week for a man who has no income at all is an impossible proposition and I think the Minister ought to realise that. As I pointed out before, you are asking for unity and co-operation. How can you expect co-operation from these people, how can you expect co-operation from people whom you ignore— I think it is only right to say that when we take this order into consideration —people about whom you do not care whether they get food or not or whether they have money to pay their rent or not? By a stroke of the pen, you take them off the unemployment assistance register.

I cannot understand the mind that conceived this step at all. In normal times it would be bad enough, but it is a colossal blunder at this particular period. Thousands of men in this country are waiting to see how this motion will go. Hungry children to-night are praying that the order may be annualled by the Dáil. I appeal, therefore, to every member of the House, no matter to what Party he belongs, to support this motion, to ask the Minister, from all parts of the House, to annul the order, and to prevent the Government from making this colossal blunder which, to my mind, will react very unfavourably on the spirit of unity that now prevails amongst all sections in the country.

I rise to support the motion. I must say that I was completely mystified when I heard that this order was issued. I cannot understand the purpose of the order. I do not believe anybody with any conception of the state of unemployment in the country and the condition of the people who have to live on unemployment assistance could approve of this order. The very callousness of this order is something beyond realisation. As Deputy Hickey stated, the matter was brought up at a meeting of the Cork Corporation last Tuesday evening and a motion was passed asking that the order be annulled. That motion was passed on the proposition of a Fianna Fáil member. I was told that that Fianna Fáil member was very active when he learned that the order was being put into operation, trying to get in touch with the Minister. I think he got in touch with the Minister and also got in touch with local Deputies in an effort to see that the order would not be enforced. I am sure, as Deputy Corish has stated, that the members of the Fianna Fáil Party are equally resentful in regard to the operation of this order. There is no doubt that the position before the order was issued was a very serious one so far as people who were in receipt of unemployment assistance were concerned. That was apparent to anybody who has contact with the people unemployed in the different areas. You have heard from members of the Labour Party and also from Deputy Brasier of the Fine Gael Party, of the position that existed before the order was issued and of how the meagre amount allowed in unemployment assistance had to be supplemented from the local rates. The position now is that the local rates will have to bear the whole burden of the maintenance of these people. That position can be realised by anybody who has contact with the people.

The resentment that has arisen in the minds of these people is startling. To give an example of it, last week while I was away an unemployed man called to my house looking for me and he was in a very resentful mood as I was not there to hear his case. He seemed to have the idea that I should have been there to hear what he had to say. When he found that I was not there, he did not want to tell the person who met him what his business was, but he stated that very soon Hitler would be here and everything would be all right. It was pointed out to him that that was a rather serious statement to make, but that, perhaps, he did not realise it. He said that he did not mind, that he had a wife and seven children hungry at home, and that even though Hitler might take away the children from him, they would be fed in any case, whilst they were hungry here. That is the feeling that is abroad in the country. I do not want to make any alarmist statements but the unemployed people have already been very badly hit by the increased cost of living. On top of that we have now this order put into operation. Surely the Minister cannot, by any stretch of the imagination, suggest that all these people will be absorbed in any kind of employment? The employment is not there.

We had as the slogan of the present Government Party in 1932 and 1933, and even at the last election, that everybody would be provided with work or with maintenance until work was provided. The work is not there and now the maintenance or partial maintenance that had been given to them is to be cut off. Surely that is not fulfilling the pledge they gave to the people of the country and upon which they got such a very large measure of support? I do not know whether it is better to express the indignation that one feels at an order such as this or to appeal to the Minister's good sense to withdraw the order and to devise some other means of raising whatever money may be needed. I take it that is the principal reason for the order, to save whatever money would be involved in the payment of unemployment assistance to these people.

I should like to put this to the Minister: is it seriously suggested that, by the operation of the order, the people who are affected by it will be able to get employment? Is that seriously suggested to the House because otherwise it means that these people are told to go and starve? The home assistance authorities will find it very difficult to make provision for them and therefore the alternative is starvation.

Now, the position referred to by Deputy Hickey with regard to the Cork City area is a very peculiar one. It is a matter that I heard raised in this House on each occasion on which this Employment Order for single men came in. The position is that numbers of city workers, people who lived under bad and slum conditions in the city, were shifted out to new houses that were built outside the city boundary, and because of that change the single men were immediately affected by this Employment Order. Now, the married men in that area will also be affected, but by no stretch of imagination could you regard these people as agricultural workers. They never had any contact with agricultural work, and that the Government recognised that they were not agricultural workers is evidenced by the fact that they are eligible for work on the city schemes in Cork City for the relief of unemployment. I ask: is it because of the change that the space within the city boundary is so circumscribed and there is a scarcity of building grounds, and these people have to go outside the city to live, that they are classed as agricultural workers the moment they go out? Surely, that does not make sense. When they lived under bad conditions in the city they were city workers, but the moment they are decently housed outside the city they become agricultural workers. Will the Minister tell the House how these people are to get work or to get maintenance when they are deprived of unemployment assistance?

Deputy Brasier told the House of the way in which the home assistance authorities had to subsidise these married people, with families, in order to bring their means of sustenance up to something approaching a level that would just provide them with the bare necessaries of life. The operation of this order means that all sustenance will be definitely reduced to nil unless the home assistance authorities take pity on these people and give them the charity of their assistance. I have stressed this matter of the unemployed workers around the city area, and that happens also in Blackrock and Douglas and around the Glasheen area. These people are not agricultural workers, and even if that work were available they are not people who are suitable for agricultural work because they have never been accustomed to it.

Even in the agricultural areas, the unemployed in those areas cannot get work because there is no work available or any extra work, even with the farmers, at this time of year. Then you have the rigorous means test that is imposed in order to qualify for unemployment assistance, and that clearly proves that work is not available in those areas. Without any regard to that, however, or without any case being made for the Unemployment Period Order, it is put into operation in one fell swoop. That, I think, is the greatest hardship of the whole thing. We did not hear of this order being put into operation or coming into operation until late last week, and it was to come into operation on the 5th June. Therefore, it looks as if the whole thing were put through in a kind of secret fashion so that the public would not become aware of it until it was actually in operation. That, I think, shows that the Minister even was not very much enamoured with the putting into operation of this order.

The speeches that have been delivered from these benches are speeches from people who have actual contact with those who will be affected by this order. They are not in any way alarmist speeches. They are giving the picture as it actually is. I wish to join in the appeal that is being made to the Minister not to put this order into operation, but to annul it and give the unemployed the little assistance that they were getting under the Unemployment Assistance Act. As was pointed out, there is all the greater reason at this particular time for not putting the order into operation, because there is definitely a lot of resentment and a feeling of unrest amongst the unemployed in this country. Therefore, I join with the other speakers in appealing to the Minister and I ask the members of the Fianna Fáil Party to join with us in asking the Minister to annul this order.

I am afraid, Sir, that some of the Deputies who have spoken have forgotten that, when the Unemployment Assistance Act was going through this House, it was indicated that one of the great difficulties which we had in framing proposals which we could stand over in the Dáil arose in relation to the provision which might be made for men who, although they would be unemployed in the rural areas during certain slack seasons, might, nevertheless, be expected to find work available for them during the busy seasons in agriculture. That difficulty was very largely an administrative one. When we are dealing with unemployment assistance recipients in urban areas we have a check—it may not be a perfect check but, at any rate, it is some safeguard against abuse—in the fact that people sign on at the employment exchanges day after day and that it is not easy for them to claim benefit when, in fact, they may be employed. In the rural areas the difficulty is greater. You cannot ask people to walk a long distance every day to sign on, and, as well as that, the opportunities for securing employment surreptitiously are very much greater. Accordingly, it was quite clearly indicated, when the Unemployment Assistance Act was being put through the House, that one of the basic assumptions upon which the Act was going to be administered was this: That during certain months of the year there would be employment available in the country areas, and that we proposed, for that reason, to say that during that period, certain classes—in fact, in regard to certain districts, practically every man, whether married or otherwise would be assumed to be in a position to get employment, if, in fact, he really wanted it. That, I say, was the basic assumption underlying the whole of the Unemployment Assistance Act, that during the months of the summer and the harvest, there would be in the rural districts in Ireland employment available for any man, married or single, who was in fact looking for it. I am not going to say that that assumption holds good in 100 per cent. of the cases. I am not going to say that, but we had to proceed on that principle, because otherwise it would be quite impossible to apply to the rural areas an Act of this sort, so easily subject to abuse, so costly—because it is a very costly Act—it costs £1,500,000, and it does not matter whether that money is provided out of the Exchequer, or whether some portion of it is taken from the Unemployment Insurance Fund, or whether some portion of it is contributed by the local authorities—the Unemployment Assistance Act does cost in round figures— and I am speaking now without the Estimates—£1,500,000 a year, and with these two facts in front of us it would, I say, have been quite impossible for the Government of the day to have contemplated the introduction of this Act, and its application to rural unemployment, unless they were quite prepared to use this machinery of the Employment Period Order freely.

It is true that the Act having been passed, I think, in 1934, and the years 1935, 1936, 1937 and, if you like, part of 1938, being years during which agriculture was greatly handicapped in this country and when the normal amount of agricultural employment might be presumed not to be available, the Employment Period Orders machinery was not operated to the same extent as it was expected would be the case when the Act was first submitted to the House. But those special conditions have passed. We are no longer confronted with the fact that our agricultural production going into Great Britain is taxed or is subject, as it was then, to undue quota restriction. We have now, as compared with 1934 and 1935, a comparatively free export market for our agricultural produce. When I say that, I do not want to be taken as saying that it is a market which is entirely satisfactory to this country but I do say that, taking it by and large, it is, in the farmer's point of view and the producer's point of view a better market and a more attractive market than in 1934, 1935 and 1936. Proceeding on that basis, it is reasonable to assume that our farmers, being normally anxious to avail to the utmost of that market, are going to expand their production. They did expand their production. I think that production was greater in 1938 than it was in 1937, 1936, or 1935, and if they are going to expand production voluntarily, naturally, there is going to be an increased demand for labour in these rural areas over and above what there was during the periods when the Employment Period Orders did not cover such long intervals of time as this one does, and did not apply to all classes of rural labour in those areas where employment might be expected to be available.

The condition is changing now, as I have said. The producer has the incentive to increase his production voluntarily in order that he may supply the increased demand of the export market. Those of them who wish to cultivate beet or wheat have further inducements to grow these crops, one, by reason of the fact that there is a much better price for beet and wheat available than there was previously, and the second, by reason of the fact that the Minister for Agriculture has passed an order compelling farmers to till a certain proportion of their land. For those reasons, in addition to the other which I have mentioned, it is again reasonable to assume—and it is upon the basis of reasonable assumption that we must proceed in this matter—that there is going to be increased employment available in the country areas, and I am so advised by the Department concerned.

There are 31,000 cut off already.

That may be so, but I am only dealing with the one aspect of this problem and that is the fact, that it is reasonable to assume that there is going to be increased employment and there is, in fact, increased employment in certain of the rural areas because, remember, this order does not apply to every rural district in Ireland—I will deal with that aspect of it later—but it does apply to those areas in this country which are suitable for tillage, where the land is good and where there is every reason to believe that there will be increased agricultural production during this year.

In addition to that, we have the development of turbary. I know Deputy Davin's views on that. He has expressed them. I agree that perhaps in the case of privately-owned bogs there may be some impediment in the way of the full development of our peat deposits in the country during the present year. But it would be a mistake to assume that the larger part of the bogs of this country, the bogs which might be available for an increased production of turf, are in private ownership. They are not. The Land Commission, as the Deputy himself has told me, are perhaps the largest owners of turbary in this country and the Land Commission, in conjunction with the Turf Development Board, are taking steps to make turbary available for those who may wish to cut it and who, in cutting it, will provide employment either for themselves or for others.

I know—and as a matter of fact, we have had it discussed here in this House—that the Turf Development Board have had difficulty in getting a sufficient number of workers to work the bogs which at the present moment they are developing. In fact, the position has become such that in some cases they are offering free transport and bringing men from many miles away in order to work on these bogs. The activities of the Turf Development Board are not confined to one county in this country. Their activities are spread over a number of counties but they have the same experience every where, that they find it difficult in those areas where there are peat deposits to get workers. What am I to assume from that? What conclusion am I to draw from that except this, that, apart altogether from the individuals who might be engaged in the ordinary agricultural operations, there is a shortage of rural labour in a certain number of counties covered by this order, in which there happen to be bogs available for exploitation. I cannot proceed on any other assumption than that in the light of the facts that are submitted to me. Then again I know, though the details are not yet available—they will be available, I am sure, before the period covered by this order elapses—that the Department of Agriculture is working on a scheme for assisting farm improvements, and has, I am sure, brought it almost to completion. They have informed me that they hope soon to make the details public. They are working on a scheme of farm improvements which they anticipate is going to absorb a very large proportion of any surplus that may be available in the rural areas. I am talking now on the assumption, which I do not accept, that in fact there is any large surplus of labour unemployed and available in the rural areas.

Of course you are.

I am talking on that assumption. It is not one which I accept for a reason which I will put to the House in a moment but, on the assumption that there is this large supply available, the Minister for Agriculture has a completely new scheme of farm improvements which he anticipates, apart altogether from the demands which might be made upon the labour pool by his tillage policy, and by the work of the Turf Development Board, would absorb a very large percentage of any surplus of labour that might be available in the areas to which it will apply.

When does it come into operation?

I hope soon, but certainly before this order elapses.

Will it apply to all areas?

I am not in a position to give details. I know that it is being worked out and I understand that it is going to come in at a very early date.

What is to happen to these people in the meantime?

I will deal with that in a moment. I do not want to be put, and the Deputy must not try to put me, into the position of making the case for this order purely upon the basis of this scheme which the Minister for Agriculture is at the moment drafting. On the contrary, I have pointed out to the Deputy already that, due to the natural expansion in the demand for our products—and, mind you, there has been a considerable expansion in that respect— and due also to the efforts of the Turf Board and other efforts which are being made by the Minister for Supplies and myself to ensure that any deficiency there might be in our normal coal supplies will be met by the resources of our own bogs and due, as I have said, to the effect of the Compulsory Tillage Order which the Minister for Agriculture has made, I have reason to believe, or, at least, I think it is reasonable to assume that there will be a much greater demand for labour in rural areas than there was last year and than there was in any preceding year since, say, 1929. That is not overstating the case, I believe.

We have then this other scheme of farm improvements which I think would, of itself, make very great demands upon the labour resources in the rural areas. In addition to that, we have another fact which is now emerging: due to the failure of supplies of minerals of various sorts from the continent, we are now faced with inquiries regarding certain of our mineral deposits which hitherto had not been regarded as capable of profitable exploitation. We have in a number of cases taken steps to re-open quarries which have been closed for years—not slate quarries, but granite quarries and quarries for stone of that sort— and which are now finding a demand for their material as a substitute for stone which formerly came from Norway and elsewhere. Again, we have inquiries with regard to dolomite deposits, barytes deposits and a number of other mineral deposits of the sort, and steps are being taken to work these deposits, if we can. As they are all in rural areas, they again will make a big demand on the labour market.

You might say to me: "After all, if the statements made by Deputy Keyes and other speakers are correct and this order is, in fact, going to deprive 30,000 unemployed people of unemployment assistance and that these 30,000 people have no outlet for their labour, what effect are these schemes and the developments to which I have referred going to have on the situation?" In that connection, the first thing to point out is that, although Deputy Keyes said that this order was operating throughout the country with the exception of some small scheduled areas in the congested districts, the exception in this case is that the areas which are excluded from the operation of the order are the most densely populated and, from the point of view of the number of persons who might be affected, are more important than the areas covered by the order. The areas excluded represent the most densely populated districts in the country and of the total number affected—the figure of 30,000, I may tell the Deputy, was quite an exaggeration; the utmost figure that could be covered by the order would be about 23,000—of the 23,000 people, fully 50 per cent.—that is a rough estimate—live in the areas which are exempted from the operations of the order. The married men in those areas and those men who have dependents will not be affected.

The reason for such exemption is clear: the people concerned live in the congested districts as defined in the Act of 1891 and in those areas contiguous to them where agricultural conditions are similar. As I have said, they represent the most densely populated portions of rural Ireland and from the point of view of the ability of the land to maintain people are by far the poorest. The order, in fact, might be taken to apply only to the truly arable area of the country where there is every reason to believe there is, and will be, plenty of employment available during this summer and during the coming harvest.

The Minister is an optimist, anyhow.

I am not an optimist because this is a matter to which some study has been given. A person does not do a thing like this without giving it a great deal of consideration, strange as it may appear. What conditions have we found to exist in relation to the men who are likely to be affected? We know from a return which was compiled last year that, according to their own statements, there were only 9.2 per cent. of the people who are now likely to be affected by this order who did not secure work for wages——

For one week, perhaps.

The Deputy must not assume from this that we are excluding them for the 52 weeks of the year, and, if they got and are likely to get work, whether it was or will be for two, three, four or 13 weeks, within what period of the year are they most likely to get it? Within the period covered by this order. Inside that period, on their own admission, 91 per cent. of the people covered by the order got work for wages. Others of them may have been able to work for themselves or they may have been dependents, living in their fathers' houses, and may have had work without getting a return in wages for it. They may have been getting a return in kind or a deferred return in the shape of profit upon their own labour when the produce of that labour was disposed of. Accordingly, while this would, undoubtedly, be a very grave and serious matter if the case which the Deputy made against the order were well-founded, when we find that 91 per cent. of those people were, on their own admission, able to get work last year when opportunities for employment were not anything like what they are to-day, is it not reasonable to estimate that more than 91 per cent. will get work this year?

On that basis, you would be entitled to assume that 100 per cent. would get work.

I should not say that. I suppose there will be cases where, though work will be available, people will not really try to get work, or where people will not be able to work when they get it. If so, those persons were not intended to come within the Unemployment Assistance Act. If there are people who do not secure employment because, in fact, they are not able to work, then it was never intended that they should be provided for by the Unemployment Assistance Act.

That is a most alarming statement.

The Deputy may regard it as alarming but it happens to be a well-founded statement.

It is not.

The Unemployment Assistance Act is intended to serve those who are not merely unable to get work but who are able to work.

Ask the managers of the labour exchanges.

I do not know what the managers of the labour exchanges may tell the Deputy but I know what the persons who are likely to be affected by this order told the managers of the labour exchanges when they made a return——

Did they apply to Clonsast?

I do not think that I interrupted a single member of the Labour Party.

But you are in very good humour.

I could say quite a lot about Clonsast. I do not wish to do so because this is a very serious matter. It is a serious matter because of the approach made to it by members of the Labour Party. We have been told that this is a blunder; we have been told that this is introduced because we want to drive people into the Army.

It has been suggested that we are doing something never contemplated before, whereas what we are doing is operating the Act in the manner in which it was originally intended to be operated, in the manner in which we told the Dáil it would be operated when we were asking the Dáil to pass the Bill. In the changed conditions of agriculture in Ireland, opportunities for employment might be expected to be available for all those concerned who want work and, because of that, we are operating the Act as originally intended. That is a plain and simple proposition.

A number of special points have been raised. The case of Cork was mentioned. Undoubtedly, there is a special case there. But upon whom lies the onus to deal with that special case? Surely, upon the people who created it.

That case does not arise solely upon this particular Employment Period Order. Deputy Hickey and Deputy Hurley mentioned it before in relation to other matters. As I have asked before—this matter may not be entirely relevant to the discussion— upon whom lies the onus of dealing with this special case? I say, and I think that reasonable men will agree with me, that the onus lies upon those who created the special conditions. We did not buy this property outside Cork city boundaries. We did not build houses there and we did not bring people from inside the boundaries of our municipality to put them down there. The Corporation of Cork did that. I do not say that they could have done anything else. I do not know whether they could or not. Perhaps, they could and, perhaps, they could not. But surely, as a matter of general principle, if the Corporation of any city acquires land for the purpose of building dwellings for its citizens, then it ought to take the necessary steps to bring that land within its own municipal confines.

They did that 18 months ago and got no response from the Minister.

It would be an easier way of dealing with the whole problem—to have the city boundary extended so as to bring these people in.

The people do not want to come in.

The position of a number of people outside the Dáil is very much like that of certain people inside the Dáil—they want to have it both ways. The people who live in these houses do not want to be inside the city boundary for certain purposes but they want to be inside it for the purpose of the Unemployment Assistance Act. Since they elect to put themselves outside the city boundary for any purpose, they must be outside the city boundary for all purposes—even for the purpose of the Unemployment Assistance Act. I cannot remedy that. I should be making confusion worse confounded and creating more anomalies than I could possibly cure if I were to attempt to do so. For that reason, I cannot do as Deputy Hickey and Deputy Hurley have suggested—agree to make any special provision which would bring these tenants of the Cork Corporation inside the Cork City boundary. The municipal corporation must do that for themselves.

There is more than that to it.

When they do that, they will be entitled to the full benefits of the Act in the same way as dwellers in other county boroughs and in urban districts.

What is the alternative in the meantime?

The alternative is for the corporation to move in the matter. I am perfectly certain that if Deputy Hickey were to press this question of the city boundaries with the same persistence as he presses the anomaly in relation to the Unemployment Assistance Act he would win out.

There would be a big row if he does.

The Deputy will have to fight that row for himself down there. He cannot transfer it to me. I have enough to answer for on my own without fighting his battles for him. The position in relation to this matter is a difficult one, but we have got to face it. As the Government, we have to think of the community as a whole. Deputies have referred to the high cost of living. Demands have been made for increases in wages which are going to increase the cost of living still further. Our difficulty during this trying period is to endeavour to keep a proper balance between those who are providing out of their own earnings for the upkeep of those in regard to whom they have no family obligations, those who have in that way to be provided for out of the earnings of others. In relation to that we have to be careful that money does not go astray; that, in fact, if there is employment available in this country for any man or woman, we will leave no inducement or in no way make it easier for those people not to take that employment or not to seek for it. The position is too difficult for those who are in jobs and who are earning perhaps a meagre pittance.

We all agree on that.

In view of the fact that there are this year opportunities for employment in rural Ireland that were not available previously, we must see to it that they are availed of. This Employment Period Order was made in accordance with the fundamental understanding which underlay the Unemployment Assistance Act when it was submitted to the House—that during the summer months the Act would be partly if not completely suspended in regard to rural Ireland.

I may not be much of a prophet, but I certainly told the House that I did not expect any sort of reasonable reply from the Minister. I was not disappointed by his reply. His reply might be classed under two heads. First of all, peculiarly enough, the Minister alleges a certain difficulty and a danger of fraud in the rural areas. It seems strange that it took them from 1933 until 1940 to discover that. I will say at once that there is no truth in his statement. I suggest that the machinery in the possession of the Government is quite ample to prevent that sort of thing; it is quite adequate to detect anything in the nature of fraud. The experience gained in the course of the last few years has proved that and I think that is a very lame excuse that has been put forward by the Minister when he suggested that it was a matter of administrative difficulty and that consideration had to be given to the protection of the State against fraud.

The second point relates to the suggestion of a huge increase in employment this year—the assumption that the Minister suggests he was entitled to take, that all the people would be employed this year. What is the great difference between this year and last year that is going to make for that increased employment? The outstanding point is the order of the Minister for Agriculture for increased tillage. Did the Minister or his advisers, the people who very dishonestly advised him in this matter, take steps last year to ascertain from any people what the true position was?

I would not like the Deputy to say that about my advisers. I do not always take advice.

I am quite prepared to prove what I have said.

I do not want the Deputy to ascribe it to my advisers.

The Minister stated that, on the information of his advisers, 91 per cent. of the people worked last year. That is a most dishonest statement. They did work, perhaps, for one day in the period, some of them.

I referred to the returns.

On that basis the Minister would be perfectly entitled to assume that 100 per cent. of the people would work this year. That would not be a very big stretch of imagination. I suggest, however, that the position might be that there would be only one day's work for many of these unfortunate people. I suggest that the advice given to the Minister was just dishonest. There is no Deputy who has taken a greater or a deeper interest in this particular question than I have. I have been intimately associated with the working of this Act, particularly in my own county, and I say that it was a particularly dishonest piece of advice to give to the Minister and if that is one of the things that has helped him to come to his decision, then I would not advise him to rely too much on that advice any more.

I should like to ask the Minister where does he expect all this work is going to come from? If he is so very sanguine about this increase in employment, what is particularly urgent about the date of this period order? Why should there be so much anxiety to have the 5th June as the date? Why not wait with this order until the other schemes that have been referred to materialise? If the Minister for Agriculture is bringing in the scheme which the Minister for Industry and Commerce is not quite in a position to define—it is one of the hopes that they are holding out—would it not be reasonable to suggest that the Government should hold their hand until the scheme would materialise? You could then judge how many men would be absorbed by that scheme that will come from the Minister for Agriculture.

The Minister seems to be pinning great hopes on increased tillage. Is he aware that there are considerable exemptions being granted in respect of the compulsory tillage order? Around Bruff and Kilmallock there is any amount of grass land. That is not going to provide any additional work for our labourers. I have already drawn attention to an area no less than 5,000 acres in extent and I have asked the Minister to endeavour to have the order applied in that connection. It includes much of the area so well known as the Golden Vale. In Limerick County there is a small area around Abbeyfeale, Purt and Kilmoylan, where people have been exempted from the operation of the period order. The result will be that the working men from outside that area will be struck clean off. There is a vast area in east and south Limerick that will be included in this order.

I should also like to know what is going to be done for the men in Ballyhahill—where are they to get work? In recent times in Limerick there have been dismissals of adult workers and yet the Minister talks of the huge increase in agricultural employment. Is it not a fact that there has been a huge decrease since 1932? Taking the Government's figures for last year, considering all the official statistics, we get a figure of about 46,000 persons less. We are told that the Turf Board have considerable difficulty in securing employees, but the Minister did not indicate on what bog the shortage took place. There was no shortage in Clonsast. The experiment carried on there was carried on only with the goodwill of the Turf Board. They did not ask for the men, because they had all the employees they required. A similar position exists at Lyracrompane and I have not heard of any bog where they did not get the men they required.

The Minister has struck off 31,000 men under the No. 1 and No. 2 Period Orders. These men were standing by, waiting for additional work, and now the Minister sends them the married men to keep them company. The Minister challenges my figure of 30,000. That is only an estimate, because I have no data on which to go, but I should like to suggest that my figure is more correct than the Minister's when he states that it would be either 22,000 or 23,000, and then he added that 50 per cent. of those would not be affected.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 10; Níl, 56.

  • Brasier, Brooke.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Davin, William.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Hurley, Jeremiah.
  • Keating, John.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • Norton, William.

Níl

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Dan.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Childers, Erskine H.
  • Cleary, Mícheál.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Fogarty, Patrick J.
  • Friel, John.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hogan, Daniel.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Keane, John J.
  • Kelly, James P.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • McCann, John.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Meaney, Cornelius.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Morrissey, Michael.
  • Mullen, Thomas.
  • Munnelly, John.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Loghlen, Peter J.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • O'Rourke, Daniel.
  • Rice, Brigid M.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Conn.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Keyes and Hickey: Níl: Deputies Smith and S. Brady.
Motion declared lost.
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