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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 26 Jun 1940

Vol. 80 No. 16

In Committee on Finance. - Local Authorities (Cost of Living) Bill, 1940—Second and subsequent Stages.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. The purpose of this Bill is to restrict the upward variation of the cost-of-living bonus beyond what the index figure at present in operation would allow. This restriction will apply to bonus on pensions as well as bonus on salaries or wages.

When the Government decided to restrict the bonus in the case of civil servants it became necessary to consider the position of officers and servants of local authorities, who received bonus on their pay calculated by reference to the cost-of-living index figure. Local authorities did not adopt the Civil Service scheme generally, but in most areas there are officers who receive bonus on the sliding scale system. The Bill will affect only officers, servants and pensioners who have such bonus. It will not affect those who are on fixed salaries or pensions.

There is a danger to our national economy if increases in prices were to be met by increase in salaries, wages and profits. National and local expenditure to meet the present emergency will throw a burden on every class of the community and we must take all possible steps to avoid any tendency to increased expenditure on salaries and wages to particular classes which would have to be met at the expenses of other sections of the community. I understand that there is a very limited number in Dublin only affected, and that practically no other part of the country is concerned as there is a sliding scale applicable to the officials of local authorities.

Mr. Brennan

I think that is so on vocational education committees.

That may be. The idea is to keep in line with the Civil Service. The position has been met by an Order.

Mr. Brennan

Will the Minister say if the terms of Section 2 are the same as the terms of the Order made in relation to civil servants? Is the position worse in regard to the officials of the local authorities?

It is just the same.

In these difficult times it is, I suppose, part of the common lot to suffer all sorts of restrictions and interferences with liberties and rights. However, it did strike me as peculiar that one party to a bargain should regulate how the other party should conform to it. It does seem to be a new method of doing justice—to pass an Act to regulate something which had a certain interpretation and which will henceforth have a different interpretation. Can the Minister say if there is any likelihood of litigation in connection with this matter? I did not know that the Order affecting civil servants had come into existence. On a previous occasion, when legislative action was taken, the results were very unsatisfactory. My recollection is that the State saved, approximately, £50,000 and that the cost in gratuities was £49,000 and in pensions about £25,000. If we are to be faced with anything like that in this case, it is an unreal economy. If it were thought desirable to deal with particular individuals, it could have been done by means of the Finance Act.

There is a very big deduction given in respect of persons in receipt of salary or other earned income. It amounts to one-fifth, whereas it was formerly one-tenth. The Finance Act could have been framed to effect a reduction of that allowance in the case of persons paid by way of salary and cost-of-living bonus and who were also entitled to a pension. Perhaps between now and the next stages of this Bill the Minister would tell us whether the action we are taking is open to litigation and whether the advice he has got is sufficient to assure us that our legislation will not be declared inoperative.

Are many local officials affected by the Bill?

Relatively few.

Mr. Brennan

All the vocational education officials are in receipt of bonus.

And some of the employees of the agricultural committee.

I think that this Bill would be regarded as controversial.

I do not think there is any danger of litigation. Deputy Cosgrave has, I think, in mind the position of transferred officers. They were in a different position from the officials concerned under this Bill. In any event, I am advised that we can safely take this action. I am not concerned with the action taken by the Minister for Finance. That is a matter for himself. I have brought this Bill in merely to keep the position of the officials concerned in line with that of the civil servants. The Minister for Finance gave an indication in November, when introducing his Supplementary Budget, and more recently when introducing the Budget of this year, of his intention to deal with the spiral which would be caused by increases in salaries and wages. In this limited sphere, we are trying to keep in line with what has been done more generally by the Minister for Finance.

Mr. Brennan

Is the Minister satisfied that his position in relation to these officials is analogous to that of the Minister for Finance in relation to the Civil Service? There is no agreement between these officials and their employers beyond the fact that they are to receive a salary plus cost-of-living bonus. They are tied down to that. Perhaps they have a case and it may be questionable whether we have a right to restrict their bonus if costs increase.

I am advised that we can do this.

Does this prevent employees of vocational education committees from getting increases in their bonus?

Yes, from 1st July.

Question put and declared carried, Deputies Corish and Pattison dissenting.

When is it proposed to take the Committee Stage?

I thought it was to be taken to-morrow.

Mr. Morrissey

There is no other business for to-morrow.

The Minister cannot get the Bill to-day. Will he not leave it over until August?

No. The 1st July is the operative date.

Mr. Brennan

Could we not adjourn for a short time and deal with the Bill to-night?

Agreed.

Sitting suspended at 5.40 p.m. and resumed at 6.10 p.m.
Bill considered in Committee.

We are opposed to all the sections and we want to be recorded as dissenting in regard to each section in the Bill.

Section 1 to 3, inclusive, and the Title, put and declared carried, Deputies Norton, Davin, Corish, and Pattison dissenting.

Bill reported without amendment.
Question—"That the Bill be received for final consideration"—put and declared carried; Deputies Norton, Davin, Corish and Pattison dissenting.
Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

The Minister made no attempt to justify to the House his reason for introducing this Bill at this stage. It is described as the Local Authorities (Cost of Living) Bill. Local authorities have agreements with their various employees under which wages and salaries are regulated in accordance with the cost-of-living sliding scale. Under the operation of that sliding scale, the wages and salaries of the officers increases as the cost-of-living index figure rises, and they are reduced if the cost-of-living index figure falls. The local authorities have not made any representations to the Government that they want to dishonour the agreements into which they freely entered with their employees, and, although the local authorities are willing to honour and respect the agreements to which they set their signatures, the Minister now refuses to allow those agreements to operate, and, instead, he compels the local authorities to enforce what, in fact, will be cuts in wages and salaries. I am particularly concerned with regard to the effect of this on the wages and salaries of the lower-paid people, especially as there is no request for any such action from the local authorities. I wonder can the Minister justify to the House, or even to his own conscience, why he should force a local authority to abrogate an agreement which that local authority desires to preserve? On what ground can he justify his insistence on local authorities breaking their agreements when, in fact, they desire to preserve them?

The agreement under which the wages and the salaries of the local officers are calculated has not been an unmixed blessing to them. When the cost-of-living sliding scale arrangement was applied to their pre-war basic scales, it provided that there should be revision upwards or downwards according to the movement of the cost-of-living index figure. While the employees of local authorities got certain increases when the cost of living was rising, the fact is that the tendency has been constantly downwards for many years past, and these employees have suffered a very substantial reduction in wages and salaries, a reduction that went hand in hand with the fall in the cost-of-living index figure. Now, because of an emergency situation, and the inability of the Government to control prices, the local authorities find the cost-of-living index figure moving skywards, and, after bearing all the hardships inseparable from a constantly declining index figure, the employees of local authorities find themselves in a position definitely worse than anything they expected. The Minister, without any request from the employers, wants to force through a Bill denying the officers concerned any compensation for the substantial increase in prices which has taken place since last September.

One would imagine that if there was any serious national problem to be dealt with or any inequalities to be ironed out, the Government would concentrate on the millers and the bacon curers in this country, but instead, the Minister and the Government select for attack the employees of local authorities and they endeavour to compel them to carry on at a fixed rate of pay at a time when wages and salaries are buying less than they formerly bought. On what ground can the Minister pretend that the agreement which has been in operation for the last 20 years, and which has been honoured loyally by the employers and the employees, should now be abrogated without any request from the people affected? It seems to me to be manifestly unfair that, having borne all the hardships associated with the sliding scale arrangement, these officers should now be prevented from getting any compensation for the rapid increase in prices.

It seems to me, further, that by taking this action the Government are taking a line which is calculated to set a very bad example to private employers. Happily, these private employers have shown a much better appreciation of the economic position than the Government. The Government seem to be determined to set the pace in keeping the wages and salaries of its own servants down. The members of the Government do not keep their own allowances down, or the allowances to members of this House down, but they seem determined to keep the salaries and wages of their employees down. Private employers in industries outside have recognised that the increase in prices has been so rapid that, of their own accord, and as a result of the representations of organisations representing the workers, they have voluntarily agreed to an adjustment of the sliding scale, a thing that the Government seem determined to abolish.

If the Government want to stabilise the cost-of-living bonus, there is a very simple way of bringing it about. The proper way to do it is to stabilise prices. The Government are apparently incapable of stabilising prices. Apparently they intend to permit prices to rise, on the one hand, and the only stabilisation they contemplate is in regard to the cost-of-living index figure in its application to basic wages and salaries. If the Government have to admit that they cannot or will not control prices, and are satisfied to allow prices to rise, then there is no answer to a demand by the workers that, in respect to those who have agreements under which wages are adjusted in accordance with the sliding scale arrangement, those agreements should be allowed to operate. Neither is there an answer to the demand by workers that, in this situation, the purchasing power of their wages should not be attacked by attempting to prevent them from securing increases.

I think this is a most unfair Bill. It is picking out those particular employees for attack, and is doing that at a time when there is no request from their actual employers that there should be any abrogation of their agreements. The Government is setting a very bad headline in keeping wages down while prices are rising. Other employers have shown a much greater appreciation of the situation than the Government appears to be capable of doing. I do not know how much the Central Funds hope to be able to save under this Bill. I do not imagine they can save anything under it except a very tiny sum, and that only in so far as they are responsible for recoupment of portion of the salaries of officers of local authorities, while the latter are willing to have their agreements with their staffs continued. I cannot see why the Minister should intervene in such an unfair way. The viciousness behind the whole thing is manifest in the title which is "to restrict the upward variation of remuneration and superannuation allowances payable by local authorities". Presumably, if the index cost-of-living figure falls the Government will come back to look for their pound of flesh. Their idea appears to be to prevent any increase in salaries when there is an upward tendency in the cost-of-living figure, but should it fall they will come back and say that they are entitled to get a reduction in wages. I think the Minister should withdraw the Bill. It is hardly calculated to beget efficiency amongst the employees of local authorities. It is a disgrace that the Bill should be introduced at a time like this. It is a particularly unfair Bill for a Government to introduce. If the Government want to set an example and a headline in the matter of sacrifices, they can find examples nearer home. The examples ought to be set nearer home rather than by picking out those people for sacrifices of the kind indicated in the Bill.

As Deputy Norton has pointed out, this is a most extraordinary Bill. It is entitled "an Act to restrict the upward variation of remuneration and superannuation allowances payable by local authorities which are variable, in whole or in part, by reference to the cost of living". The dice, as Deputy Norton pointed out, is loaded entirely in favour of the employer. If there should be a reduction in the cost of living, advantage will be taken of that by the Government to reduce immediately the wages of the employees of local authorities. I presume the Minister has in mind that that will enable the local authorities to economise and thereby help the Government to economise. Compare that with the position of local authorities at the moment who are being called upon to pay a large amount of money weekly to able-bodied men in consequence of the bringing into operation of an Employment Period Order.

That is costing the county that I represent £20 a week at the moment. I wonder why did the Government place that burden on local authorities in recent weeks, while having at the same time this particular piece of legislation in their mind, which will not bring about economies equal at all to the amounts that county boards of health are now being called upon to bear. The Minister, in answer to me, said that this legislation would apply principally to the employees of educational bodies. They are a body of people who have been agitating for a considerable time with a view to having their positions stabilised. When I use the word "stabilise" I do not mean it to apply in the same way that the Minister means it to apply under this Bill, because they have been maintaining continuously that their basic wage is not a sufficient wage, and is not in keeping with the responsibility of the positions they occupy. We find that under this Bill their positions are going to be affected very seriously, and for that reason I am going to vote against this Bill.

Some weeks ago we were given to understand that legislation of a controversial nature would not be introduced during the present crisis. So far as this Party is concerned, this is a highly controversial measure, because, apart altogether from the fact that it will prevent the cost-of-living bonus from being increased over the present figure, it will also, I take it, be used as a deterrent to prevent the employees of local authorities, who consider that they have a miserable wage— a great number of them are of that opinion—from seeking an increase in their wages. I say that because this will be taken as a headline by local authorities. It will also, to my mind, prevent the Minister from giving his sanction to an increase in wages to any person in the employment of a local authority. Deputy Norton has pointed out that private employers all over the country have been far more liberal. We see that to-day a great many of them are giving an increase in wages to their employees because of the increase in the cost of living. I submit that it is very unfair to introduce this Bill at the present time.

We are talking about living in the middle of a crisis. This Bill is going to create a crisis in the homes of a great many people. I suggest to the Minister that it is not an appropriate time to bring in legislation of this kind. For that reason, as well as for the other reasons that I have indicated, that it will prevent any employee under a local authority getting an increase in wages and is going to seriously affect the position of employees under educational bodies, I propose to vote against the Bill.

As I have already indicated, the Bill is very limited in its application. It will affect principally certain officials of the Dublin Corporation, certain officials of agricultural committees and of vocational committees. Most of the people it applies to are not by any means badly off. Legislation of this kind was indicated by the Minister for Finance when introducing his Supplementary Budget. I think Deputy Norton said that the Minister said nothing about it.

The Minister for Finance, when introducing his Supplementary Budget on the 8th November, 1939—column 969—said :—

"There is one other matter to which I must refer. The war has resulted in increases in the prices of many essential commodities and, before it ends, further increases are, unfortunately, probable. These increases will bear heavily on every class, and there will be a strong temptation to demand corresponding increases in wages, salaries and profits. If such demands were successful, the effect would be to increase prices still more, and to give occasion for new demands. In that way an artificial price structure would be built up which would inevitably collapse at the end of the war, if not before, leaving behind widespread unemployment and depression. The Government feels that it has a duty to do everything in its power to avert such a development, and it is determined to set its face against the efforts of any class to obtain compensation for the rise in prices at the expense of the community. Action to the same end is in contemplation with regard to all classes of public servants, and if the war continues for a long time, the Government may be forced to adopt more drastic measures. I trust that all classes of the people will realise that the course we have in mind, though it may call for immediate sacrifices, is necessary to avert still graver hardships in the future."

I cannot say any more in favour of this Bill than the Minister for Finance said, except this, that something has to be done to control the spiral.

Of prices?

If you have increases every other day and waste, you must have an increase in prices. On 1st July we will have reached a period in which there would be an increase in this bonus. You must draw the line somewhere. In addition, I think it would be very unfair on the part of the Minister for Finance to enforce the measure with regard to civil servants and not to enforce a similar law in the case of the servants of public bodies. The latter would be put in a different position.

But that has not come into operation at all yet. There is no statutory authority for doing it yet.

The Deputy can question the Minister concerned. I am not dealing with it.

Will the Minister tell the House what is the saving to the local authorities? Is it sufficient to save the present financial system from collapse?

I may not be as good an economist as Deputy Davin.

If the Minister is weak in economics, he has all the talents for doing this thing as this Bill indicates. I would like to ask the Minister whether this Bill is to have a limited life? Is it to be the permanent law of the country for the next 10 or 20 years? Are we to have a position, say, where the cost-of-living index figure, which at the moment is 185 on the pre-war basis of 100, may reach 485 and that this Bill will still continue to operate and there is only the figure of 185 to be allowed—is there to be any provision for review?

In any case this is an emergency provision. The servants of local authorities will not be put in a worse position than the civil servants.

Is it intended to review the position with reference to this matter?

It will follow what the Minister does with regard to the civil servants.

Is the position that what governs the civil servants will also govern the remuneration payable by local authorities?

I think that is very fair.

Question—"That the Bill do now pass"—put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 47; Níl, 13.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Carty, Frank.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Fogarty, Patrick J.
  • Friel, John.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hogan, Daniel.
  • Keane, John J.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Loughman, Francis.
  • Lynch, James B.
  • McCann, John.
  • McDevitt, Henry A.
  • Meaney, Cornelius.
  • Morrissey, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Munnelly, John.
  • O'Ceallaigh, Seán T.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Loghlen, Peter J.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Rice, Brigid M.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
  • Walsh, Laurence J.
  • Ward, Conn.

Níl

  • Brasier, Brooke.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Davin, William.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Esmonde, John L.
  • Hughes, James.
  • Keating, John.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • Norton, William.
  • Pattison, James P.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Smith and Seán Brady; Níl: Deputies Corish and Davin.
Question declared carried.
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