I move that the Bill do now pass.
Committee on Finance. - Children Bill, 1940—Fifth Stage.
On that motion, I spoke at some considerable length yesterday on the Report Stage of the Bill on the necessity for establishing a clinic.
There has been developing a bad habit of treating the Fifth Stage of a Bill as a continuation of Second Reading. On the Second Stage, as Deputies know, they may discuss not only what is in a Bill, but what they would like to see in it. On the Fifth Stage, debate is confined to what is actually in the Bill, and should not be made the occasion of replying to what some Minister said on the Second Stage.
What I am going to say is that the Minister will have to administer this Bill in the form in which it is about to be passed by this House. Therefore, for any lacuna of deficiencies that there may be in it, we have got to look to the Minister to make them up, because it is now too late to alter the Bill itself. If he is going to supply those deficiencies then, in my submission, he should proceed to equip himself to do so without further delay. The first step towards that end that I would suggest to him would be to go over to Glasgow and there visit a holy nun who is at present operating a children's clinic. I suggest to him that he should go over to see how it is being operated, see the work it is doing, see how it is co-operating with the police courts, see how it is abating a large proportion of the evils associated with the administration of the Children Acts in Great Britain, and see the measure of appreciation that that nun's work has won from the Government Departments in England.
Would the Deputy help the Chair to locate any reference to a clinic in this Bill?
I think, Sir, you were engaged when I was explaining that, because certain things are not in the Bill, we must look to the Minister personally in his administration of it.
And yet debate them, though admittedly they are not in the Bill?
The Minister is in the Bill.
The Deputy must be brief if indulgence is given to him.
That is really all I have to say. I am simply asking that the Minister should go over to Glasgow and see there for himself the ancillary activities that are rendering the Children Acts in that area a success. If he does, I think he will come back with special equipment to administer this measure with results that we could not possibly hope for if he attempts to administer it with the information which, judging from his observations on other stages of this Bill, he at present has in respect to the whole problem of juvenile delinquents.
Under Section 4 of this Bill, the Minister is given power to make regulations describing the remuneration of officers in certified schools as laid down in the section. I take it that applies to the teachers in those schools. I do not know what other interpretations could be put on it. I should like to know if the section gives the Minister power to make regulations with regard to the conditions of employment in those schools, because in one big school here— Artane—the conditions of employment for teachers are shocking. Those men work there from six o'clock in the morning until half past nine at night without a break. They start at £1 a week, all found. There is a regulation that if they get married they have to leave the service. I hope that when the Minister comes to lay down conditions under this section, he will see that that scandal will no longer obtain in that school. There are six men employed there. One of them has 30 years' service, and has now the magnificient sum of £2 5s. 0d. a week. I hope the Minister will take steps speedily to end that state of affairs, and see to it that something approaching Christian conditions will obtain in that school.
I think I am correct in saying that this section refers to the people I have mentioned. If so, I would strongly impress on the Minister to see that that scandal is ended. I was not aware—I am sure many members of the House were not aware, and I am certain the public were not aware—of the conditions obtaining in those schools. The wage scale of those men is extremely low, so low that it is not comparable with any other scale that I know of. They are not free for a single day in the week. They are all the time on duty from 6 a.m. until 9.30 p.m. I ask the Minister to see that that state of affairs is ended immediately. I desire to say that I shall take occasion to raise this matter again in the House.
I think Deputy Hurley is aware of the fact that we had in preparation a scheme for taking in teachers of literary subjects under the Primary Branch, Office of Education. These proposals are in abeyance for the time being, owing to the emergency. A considerable sum of money would be required to carry out this very necessary reform. I am not in a position to carry it out at present, because, as has already been explained to the House, it is not possible, owing to the financial stringency, to make the necessary provision to do so. I very much regret that these teachers, many of whom have given long and devoted service, cannot have the benefit of this scheme, but it is one of the disadvantages of the present position in educational matters, as I have said on more than one occasion in the House, that reform is bound up closely with the provision of the necessary finances, and if we can carry on our existing educational services without having to effect greater economies than we have so far effected, I think we will be doing very well, indeed, while the emergency lasts.
The regulations under Section 4 were not intended to cover this matter of the recognition of teachers of literary subjects. The intention was that regulations regarding the medical inspection and proper care of the children confined in these schools should be made according to them. However, I will look into the matter, but I fail to see what can be done, because the position in which the schools are is such that if I call their attention, as Deputy Hurley would have me do, to the necessity for improving the conditions of their employees, I will naturally be told that costs are rising in connection with the running of these institutions, that, as a matter of fact, they are running on a narrower margin, if not at a loss, in a great many cases, than before the war started and that it would be quite impossible for them to do so, so that again it comes back to a question of providing finances from Government sources.
The matter raised by Deputy Dillon was discussed at length yesterday. I would be very glad indeed to get any information I can which will tend to improve the treatment of juvenile offenders. I am not quite sure that the conditions in Dublin are even like those in Glasgow. I think there is probably a great deal more juvenile crime in cities across the water than here, but the matter concerns medical administration to a great extent also. We have medical inspection of schools and any question which arises with regard, for example, to the treatment of mental disease, even in young people, would seem to be a matter for the Department of Local Government. I am not losing sight of the matter and if anything can be done, we shall certainly try to do it, but, as I have said, I do not think the time is suitable, unfortunately, for making reforms which we should all like to make and which would be very desirable, but for which moneys have to be provided which at the moment are urgently needed for other purposes. I do not know, either, what the trend of events in the future in that regard will be.
May I ask the Minister if the Conditions of Employment Act, or any of the similar Acts, could be usefully applied to such a place as the school at Artane in order to amend the scandal of the intolerably long hours which these people work? The Minister tells me that he has no power under this section, but surely there should be some power to end that state of affairs.
The Minister has made a very fine case for the juvenile courts so far as they apply to the City of Dublin. I am aware of the good work done there; I am aware of the way the courts are operated, and of the good work of the probation officers. Would the Minister, at some future date, consider applying the same procedure to the country courts? I think the Minister will agree with me when I say that, in the district courts in the country, unless the justice is a man with sufficient social outlook to understand that it should not be so, cases affecting children are tried in open court. It merely depends on the individual justice. The reason I raise this matter is that, since the Second Reading, I have seen one case where a father was charged with assault on a child and, based on the conviction in that case, the child was sent to an industrial school. I think that even that case should not have been tried in open court because it showed everybody in the district the status of that unfortunate family and the fact that the child was being sent to an industrial school because the father was not a fit person to look after him. If the Minister, at some future date, would extend the very good system in operation in Dublin to the district courts in the country he would be doing a great work. Tributes have been paid, and rightly so, to the district courts in Dublin, but there is nothing to prevent a case affecting a child being heard in open court in the country, unless the child is actually prosecuted, and children may be just as much affected by a charge brought against their parents as by a charge brought against themselves. Would the Minister consider adopting the Dublin system in respect of courts in the country?
Does the Deputy mean that children's cases are heard in public?
No, not quite that, but there are cases affecting children in the country which could usefully be heard in camera, and a case in which a father or mother is concerned may have as bad an effect on children and on the reputations of the family as a case in which they are concerned themselves. I suggest that justices in Dublin go a little farther than they are entitled to by hearing these cases in camera, but only in very rare cases in the country do the justices do more than they are barely required to do. Matters will arise which may be detrimental to a child's outlook on life and these things will be publicised in the country papers and I suggest that that should not be so. My second point, which may be slightly irrelevant, is: Would the Minister consider doing something to prevent children of tender years being sworn in open court?
Are these points not really matters for the Department of Justice? I know that that Department is at present examining closely the whole question of children's courts with a view to improving the existing system in every way possible. I am not quite clear how what the Deputy suggests with regard to parents could be carried out, because, presumably, the conviction of any parent, no matter what the type of case, affects——
The Minister misunderstands me. May I put this case of which I have personal knowledge? A father—the mother is dead—happens to be inclined to take too much liquor and he was charged by the Guards with an assault on the child. He was convicted, and the conviction is a basis for taking the child from him. Unfortunately, before he is convicted, because there is a charge against the father, that child of seven or eight years is brought into court to give evidence against the father in front of the usual admiring multitude which is to be found in country courts. A child of tender years should not be put on oath and exposed to the smiles of the gallery in country courts. The reason I raise the matter now is to ask the Minister for Education, whose duty it is to look after young people, to catch the Minister for Justice as quickly as possible and make him see that the laws which are administered by his Department are amended in such a way as to bring about the situation which the Minister, as well as I, would like to see.
Question put and agreed to.