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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 4 Jun 1941

Vol. 83 No. 11

Vote 61—Posts and Telegraphs.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £1,629,343 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1942, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Puist agus Telegrafa (45 agus 46 Vict., c. 74; 8 Edw. 7, c. 48; 1 agus 2 Geo. 5, c. 26; na hAchtanna Telegrafa, 1863 go 1928, etc.); agus Seirbhísí áirithe eile atá fé riaradh na hOifige sin.

That a sum, not exceeding £1,629,343, be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1942, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (45 and 46 Vict., c. 74; 8 Edw. 7, c. 48; 1 and 2 Geo. 5, c. 26; The Telegraph Acts, 1863 to 1928; etc.), and of certain other Services administered by that Office.

The net Post Office expenditure for the year 1941-42 is estimated at £2,515,143. This sum, which includes £41,964 in respect of staff loaned to other Government Departments, mainly for emergency services, and of balance of civil pay of officers absent on military service, represents a net increase of £27,708 on the provision for 1940-41.

The gross increase is approximately £53,300. This is mainly made up of £12,000 increased cost of substitution of officers on loan or on military service and of additional staff, mostly for telephone operation; £14,000 in respect of increased wages and travelling expenses for engineering maintenance and of reduced relief from Telephone Capital; £8,000 in respect of increased prices of non-engineering stores; £9,000 increased provision for superannuation; £6,100 for additional equipment at civil aviation stations; £1,450 in respect of conveyance of mails by road; and £1,400 in respect of miscellaneous engineering expenses, etc. There are offsetting reductions totalling £29,000, made up of £17,000 due to anticipated decreased purchases of engineering materials as a result of difficulties in obtaining supplies and the proposed use of reserve stocks; £1,000 reduction in engineering contract work; £3,300 reduced cost of conveyance of external mails; £2,700 reduced operating force at civil aviation stations. There are also reductions in agency service and superannuation costs, etc. These reductions, taken in conjunction with a lower credit of £3,300 for Appropriations-in-Aid, make the estimated net increase in expenditure £27,708.

Before presenting the customary information regarding the Department's financial position as ascertained from the commercial accounts, I wish to refer briefly to the effects on Post Office revenue of the conditions which have developed as a result of the disturbed international situation. In presenting the Estimates for 1940-41, in April of last year, I mentioned that, up to the end of the financial year 1939-40, which included seven months of the European War, so far from there having been any adverse effects, Post Office revenue had, as a whole, actually improved. Although postal and telegraph earnings had decreased (by £16,300 and £4,500 respectively), the reductions were more than counterbalanced by improved receipts from telephones (approximately £42,000), leaving a net increase of revenue of £21,000 in 1939-40 as compared with 1938-39. I expressed the hope at the time that this very satisfactory revenue position might be maintained during 1940-41, but it was not, of course, then possible to foresee the very marked change in the situation which has since developed, with its serious reactions upon trade and industry and resulting repercussions upon Post Office services. Actually, there has been quite a substantial drop in revenue during the past 12 months. Complete figures are not yet available, but it is estimated that, as compared with 1939-40, the decrease will amount to about £82,000. Postal earnings are down by about £124,000, the main causes being the cessation of the major activities of Irish Hospitals' Trust; the falling off in cross-Channel correspondence by reason of business restrictions arising from supply and transport difficulties; the serious curtailment of the foreign mail services, etc. As against the decline in postal earnings there was an increase of about £40,000 in telephone and of £2,000 in telegraph receipts, leaving a net decrease in revenue on the three services of, approximately, £82,000 for 1940-41.

As to probable revenue in the current financial year, the position will, of course, be materially affected by the increases in postal and telephone charges recently announced by the Minister for Finance in his Budget statement. Particulars of the increased charges are as follows:—

1. Inland Letters.—The rate for letters not exceeding 3 ounces will be increased from 2d. to 2½d., with ½d. for each additional ounce.

2. Inland Postcards.—Rate increased from 1d. to 1½d. (single), and from 2d. to 3d. (reply).

3. Foreign Letters.—Commowealth countries and United States of America: Minimum letter rate increased from 2d. to 2½d. for the first ounce, with 1½d. for each additional ounce.

4. Printed Papers.—Inland: Rate increased from ½d. per 2 ounces throughout to ½d. per ounce for the first 2 ounces, and ½d. for each 2 ounces beyond. Foreign: Rate increased from ½d. to 1d. per 2 ounces throughout.

5. Parcels (for delivery in Éire).—The new rates will be:—Not exceeding 2 lbs., 6d.; not exceeding 3 lbs., 8d.; not exceeding 5 lbs., 9d.; not exceeding 6 lbs., 11d.; not exceeding 8 lbs., 1/-; not exceeding 11 lbs., 1/1. This means an increase of 1d. at each point on the scale except at the 2 lbs., 5 lbs. and 8 lbs. points.

6. Telephones.—An addition of 5 per cent. will be made to subscribers' telephone accounts. There will also be some slight increase in the charges for trunk calls made from call offices and from coin boxes on subscribers' premises.

The increased postal charges came into operation on the 1st June, 1941; the increases in charges for trunk calls from call offices and subscribers' coin boxes will come into operation on 1st July, 1941; the percentage addition to telephone accounts from 1st October, 1941.

The increased charges will, it is estimated, bring in additional revenue of approximately £238,000 in a full year. In the current year the additional receipts are estimated at £190,000 making the total estimated revenue for 1941-42 £2,170,000.

I may here explain that the revenue figures I have given represent actual cash receipts. They are not to be confused with, nor are they comparable with, the revenue totals as shown in the commercial accounts. The latter take into consideration various services rendered by the Post Office to other Government Departments which are not paid for in cash.

The position of the three main services, postal, telegraphs and telephone, as indicated by the commercial accounts for the financial year 1939-40, the latest period for which these accounts are available, is as follows:—

Postal Services. — Revenue, £1,711,628; expenditure, £1,663,034; surplus, £48,594.

Telegraph services. — Revenue, £179,975; expenditure, £321,537; deficit, £141,562.

Telephone services. — Revenue, £597,422; expenditure, £516,903; surplus, £80,519.

These figures indicate that the Postal and Telephone services taken together showed at the end of the year 1939-40 a surplus of £129,113, but that, counteracting this, there was a loss on the Telegraphs of £141,562. Although the revenue from the three services had improved by approximately £13,700 as compared with 1938-39, expenditure had risen by approximately £77,500, due principally to the operation of a higher cost of living figure, to additional staff to meet growth of services, to the building up at increased prices of reserve stocks of general stores, watermarked paper and uniform clothing, etc. The net result was that the surplus on the three services of £51,321 which existed at the end of 1938-39 had been converted at the end of 1939-40 into a deficit of £12,449. Regrettable as this is, I am afraid that when the accounts for 1940-41 are available the deficit will be found to have increased, because, combined with the drop in revenue already referred to, there has been growing expenditure on all services.

So far as the operation of the internal postal services during the past year is concerned, there is nothing of importance to report. The services functioned as in normal times, apart from the decline in the quantity of traffic already referred to. In the case of the external services, however, further material disimprovement has taken place. The working schedules on the Dun Laoghaire-Holyhead service, the frequency of which had been reduced by half at an early stage of the hostilities, have been drastically altered, and the one service daily in each direction that now operates leaves Dun Laoghaire in the morning with outgoing mails and returns in the evening with incoming mails—the arrival being too late, however, to connect with the general night mails to the provinces.

As a result of the change the second delivery in Dublin has been suspended, as its continuance would serve no useful purpose. The Rosslare-Fishguard service works on only three nights a week and is now used for mail purposes only to a very limited extent. These restrictions on the cross-Channel services have involved a further slowing down in the transmission of correspondence between the two countries, but they are, of course, the outcome of war exigencies in Great Britain and the situation is one which it is not within the power of my Department, in present circumstances, either to control or remedy.

The enlargement of the scale of international hostilities has resulted in further disorganisation of the foreign mail services. No direct sailing from Eire to foreign countries are now operative and mails for all places abroad must, in consequence, necessarily circulate via Great Britain for onward transmission by such routes as are available. The times occupied in transit are, naturally, now very much in excess of those taken under normal conditions. In ward foreign mails are also very seriously delayed, and there has been a marked reduction in the quantity of correspondence conveyed, both outwards and inwards. Air mail outlets to the Near East, Egypt, India, Australia, etc., have been considerably curtailed, and there has also been further restriction of the foreign money order services due to exchange and communication difficulties. The money order arrangements with the United States, Canada, Newfoundland, Cuba, South Africa, India, Australia and New Zealand are, however, still operative.

The financial condition of the telegraph service is, unfortunately, becoming steadily worse. The deficit of £129,737, which existed at the end of the year 1938-39, had grown at the end of 1939-40 to £141,562, an increase of £11,825, and there has since been no improvement in the position. Although there was a small increase of about £2,000 in receipts in 1940-41, this was due to the rentals of additional private wires provided during the year. Traffic continued to decline, the number of originating messages having dropped by about 60,000. The decline in traffic was the result, in part, of disturbed business conditions, but mainly of the growing popularity of the telephone. In relation to the increasing unprofitableness of the telegraphs, I think it well to say here that reduction of rates, which is frequently suggested, would prove no remedy. There is ample proof of this in what happened in 1937, when the minimum charge for internal messages was reduced from 1/6 for 12 words to 1/- for nine words. The revenue from the additional traffic which did, for a time, manifest itself was insufficient to cover the loss arising from the reduction of charge and the concession was responsible for a drop in telegraph earnings of, approximately, £9,500 a year.

Telegraph communication by cable was provided during the year to the islands of Dursey and Whiddy, County Cork, and Inishfree, County Donegal. Post offices were, at the same time, opened on the islands. The provision of wireless telegraphy service to 11 other islands has been delayed by difficulties in procuring certain important items of equipment. The outstanding apparatus has, however, just come to hand and the work will now be proceeded with as expeditiously as possible.

I am glad to be able to report a substantial development in the telephone service during the past year. As already mentioned, revenue has grown by about £40,000. While the growth has been mainly due to increased use by the Defence services, expansion has also taken place in ordinary public traffic. Emergency conditions and the difficulties for industry and trade arising therefrom, which have adversely affected the other Departmental services, have tended to bring grist to the telephone mill. The number of local calls in 1940 was 34,200,000—an increase of 878,000 over the number for the previous year. The number of trunk calls was 4,247,000, an increase of 334,000.

The total number of subscribers' lines at the end of 1940 was 29,243, an increase of 446 on the figures at the end of the previous year. The total number of telephones in use was 45,382, an increase of 1,120. The number of automatic telephones in the Dublin and Dún Laoghaire areas is now 24,843, an increase of 1,795. The growth in subscribers would have been even greater were it not for difficulties in providing service, a considerable amount of the time of the engineering staff having to be devoted during the year to communication needs arising out of emergency conditions. Some very extensive construction work has been carried out throughout the country for the Department of Defence and the Gárda Síochána and, in the Dublin district, for the Air Raid Precautions services. This diversion of engineering activities had, in many cases, the effect of materially delaying the provision of new lines for ordinary subscribers. While the position in this connection has improved, it will be some time before the arrears of subscribers' installations can be overtaken and, in the meantime, new applications may suffer some unavoidable delay. Every effort will, however, be made to keep the delay to a minimum.

Thirty-six new exchanges and 17 new public call offices—including four street kiosks—were opened last year. There are now 836 exchanges and 1,510 call offices, including 152 street kiosks. The number of additional trunk and junction circuits provided was 118. The number of high efficiency "carrier" circuits on the main trunk routes is now 62—an increase of ten during the year. Telephone service was extended to the Belmullet Peninsula in July last and exchanges and call offices were opened at Belmullet, Blacksod and Bangor Erris. There is now no extensive area of the country without telephone service.

Work is in progress on the installation of a new central trunk exchange in Exchequer Street, Dublin, with equipment of the most up-to-date type. It is hoped that the new exchange will be completed and in service during the current year unless emergency conditions cause unavoidable delay. It is the intention later to provide an additional exchange in St. Andrew Street, linked with Exchequer Street, and that, ultimately, the trunks shall be wholly removed from the Crown Alley Exchange, which will then function solely as an automatic exchange for local services.

An extensive re-arrangement of circuits in the Dublin area between the various automatic exchanges was carried out during the year. This re-arrangement provides an improved margin of safety for the Dublin service should a major disaster occur at any one of the automatic exchanges. Subscribers connected to the Ballasbridge exchange are being transferred to the automatic system and the transfer is nearing completion. The total number of subscribers affected is about 1,300. The extension of the experimental semi-automatic system in rural districts, which was contemplated, has had to be abandoned for the time being. As the apparatus has to be obtained from outside the country, mainly from the U.S.A., it will not be possible to make further progress in the matter while the emergency lasts.

In regard to the standard of telephone service now generally afforded to the public, the position is that while the internal service is, on the whole, reasonably good, there are times when it is unavoidably affected by conditions arising out of the emergency. I have already referred to the large increase in trunk traffic which has taken place and which, of course, tends to block up circuits, especially at the busy periods. In addition, due to increasing business difficulties, the duration of calls has tended to become longer. Further, urgent calls on Army, Gárda Síochána, and other emergency services must necessarily be given priority over ordinary public traffic. All these factors from time to time involve the holding up of public calls in greater or lesser degree, and unfortunately the provision of additional circuits for relief purposes has in many cases had to be postponed by reason of the necessity for attention to the more urgent needs of the Defence services. I can assure the House that every effort is made by the Department to keep delay to a minimum, but it will be recognised that in present circumstances the situation is one which it is not possible wholly to rectify. In Dublin the increasing local traffic occasionally causes congestion in the Crown Alley Exchange; any difficulties in this connection, particularly as regards calls to "0,""30" and "31," will however disappear when the new exchange in Exchequer Street is in operation. The service in Dublin and in a large area to the north of Dublin was also materially affected for some weeks by a severe storm which occurred in January last, causing considerable damage to trunk and local plant.

Telephone service between Éire and Great Britain has been very detrimentally affected by war conditions. The matter is one which is not, of course, within the control of this Administration. The continental and overseas telephone services have been suspended since the outbreak of hostilities.

Capital expenditure on telephones in 1940-41 amounted to £170,000 approximately. The programme for the coming year, if it proves possible to carry it out in full, will cost about £144,000, of which approximately £54,000 will be for automatics, mainly for the provision of the new automatic exchange at Exchequer Street, Dublin; £51,000 for additional subscribers' and renters' lines; £9,000 for additional high efficiency "carrier" circuits; £6,000 for new overhead trunks; and £7,000 on underground development, etc. The extent to which this programme can be carried out in practice will, however, depend upon the scope of any further demands in connection with Defence communications that may be received, as well as upon the position in regard to supplies of engineering stores and materials.

In regard to the problem of supplies, I may say that the greater part of the plant and apparatus used for engineering purposes is made outside Éire and that the reserves which had been accumulated during recent years have been seriously eaten into by the exceptional demands for Defence purposes during the past 12 months.

The problem of replenishment has of late been proving more and more difficult and as, in addition, prices are seriously increasing, I have been compelled to decide upon a policy of rigid economy in regard to engineering stores consumption so as to ensure, as far as practicable, that materials necessary for the maintenance of essential services may at all times be available. Accordingly, until the position eases, new construction works which involve any substantial quantity of stores will, unless where essential services are concerned, be rigidly curtailed. Every effort will, however, be made to meet the demands from new subscribers as far as circumstances admit, but the difficulties in the way of providing circuits involving long pole routes are considerable and, even when it is possible to erect such circuits, very long delay will be inevitable. I feel sure that, in the circumstances indicated, Deputies will recognise that the conservative policy which I am now forced to adopt in the matter of further telephone expansion is absolutely unavoidable.

In addition to the new trunk exchange in Exchequer Street, Dublin, on which work is now in progress, and the contemplated new exchange and post office in St. Andrew Street, plans for which are almost ready, the Department has under consideration schemes for the enlargement of the district office at James's Street, Dublin; for the erection of a new district office on a site adjacent to the Gárda barracks at Whitehall, Drumcondra; for an extension of office accommodation at Thurles; and for structural alterations at the head post office at Cork to enable a new telephone exchange to be installed and the public office to be improved.

It is hoped that it may be possible to make substantial progress with these works during the coming financial year. In relation to the proposed new post office in St. Andrew Street, Dublin, I may say here, in connection with questions on the point which have previously been raised, that it is not the Department's intention to have sorting work performed in this office. No mail vans will be detained or delayed in St. Andrew Street, as they will merely call there for the purpose of collecting posted correspondence and conveying it to the chief office in Pearse Street. So far as the post office is concerned, therefore, there will be no danger of interference with general public traffic passing through St. Andrew Street.

Savings bank business continues to expand. The deposits during the 12 months ended 31st December last amounted to a total of £3,226,700, an increase of £309,170 on the figures for the previous year. Withdrawals amounted to £2,312,050, an increase of £221,362. The increase in the balance held on behalf of ordinary depositors, including interest of £277,570 earned during the year, amounted to £1,192,220. In accordance with the provisions of the Finance Act, 1940, moneys of the Trustee Savings Bank, which were formerly transferred to the National Debt Commissioners, London, have, since 21st November, 1940, been paid into a special account of the Minister for Finance at the Bank of Ireland and invested by way of deposit in the Post Office Savings Bank. A sum of £190,100 was so invested during the period ended 31st March, 1941.

The pressure on the Stores Branch, which arose in 1939 as the result of emergency conditions, was intensified during 1940, mainly in connection with the provision of uniform and other supplies for the expanding Defence Forces, the newly constituted Local Security Force, and the A.R.P. services. Considerable difficulties were experienced in the early part of the year in regard to woollen supplies and, in June last, the Minister for Supplies found it necessary to make an order which secured practically the whole output of the Irish woollen mills for Army requirements. Orders for approximately 700,000 yards of Army serges and cloths were placed and for 1,250,000 yards of cotton, almost the whole of which went to mills in Éire. Upon the stores branch fell the responsibility for the arranging of contracts, both for manufacture and tailoring, for inspection of contractors' premises and for ensuring that supplies were expeditiously delivered and were up to standard. The value of contracts placed by the stores branch in 1940 reached the huge total of £2,052,947, more than double the total for 1939 and almost five times the total for normal times. Expenditure on articles manufactured or assembled in Éire amounted to £1,797,051, as against £716,943 in the previous year.

Difficulties in procuring supplies also arose from the shortage of raw materials, both at home and in Great Britain, as well as from restrictions on the export of certain classes of commodities from Great Britain and the consequent inability of British contractors to carry out contracts already entered into. In some cases it has been necessary to place alternative contracts in the U.S.A. at seriously increased cost and, of course, with considerable delays in delivery.

I may mention that supplies of pine poles from foreign countries for telephone and telegraph purposes were completely cut off in September last. Home-grown larch poles have since been substituted, contracts for approximately 12,700 such poles, being placed last year. These home-grown poles are, however, only suitable for light construction.

The provision under sub-head Q in respect of Civil Aviation and Meteorological Wireless services, which are provided and operated by the Post Office on behalf of the Department of Industry and Commerce, amounts to £43,020, an increase of £3,475 on the total provision for last year. There are decreases of £2,240 and £430 under Q (1) and Q (3)—Salaries, Wages, etc., and Travelling respectively. The provision under sub-head Q (2)—Equipment Charges, etc —represents, on the other hand, an increase of £6,145, of which £4,820 is for customs duty on imported apparatus; £538 for new equipment at Rynanna and for electrical heating at Ballygirreen and £787 for increased cost of maintenance, due to extended hours of operation of transmitters. In regard to the customs duty item, I may explain that this has reference to apparatus already imported which, it was at first understood, would be admitted duty free. The Revenue Commissioners have, however, since intimated that duty will be payable.

In concluding this statement I would like to express my appreciation of the very satisfactory manner in which the officers generally of the Department have carried out their duties during a very strenuous year.

The Minister, of course, is probably aware of the fact that his predecessor on one occasion told the House that the new premises in Pearse Street would be erected and ready for occupation in 1941. We are now in the year 1941 and the foundation stone of the new premises has not yet been laid. I wonder if the present Minister would like to hazard some guess this evening as to when the work of constructing the premises will be undertaken and when the building is likely to be made available for postal traffic. The annexe there is a most unsatisfactory building. It is inadequate for staff requirements; it is an unsuitable place to work in and, in addition, it suffers from the fact that at Christmas time or periods of exceptional pressure it is not adequate for the requirements of postal traffic. Something should be done. The Department should make up its mind in the matter. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance, when replying to the debate on the Estimate for Public Works during the year, told us that the Post Office Department had not yet satisfied itself as to the nature of the work to be done there or as to the plans and that, therefore, the work could not be carried out. This is the position, in 1941, though the Minister's predecessor told us the building would be ready and available for occupation this very year. The Parliamentary Secretary says the Post Office has not even yet made up its mind on the matter, cannot decide, apparently, on the plans and does not yet know what kind of work it wants done in the building. I would suggest to the Minister that nobody is being unduly fussy or petulant in asking the Post Office, in 1941, to make up its mind, once and for all, what work it wants done in Pearse Street. The Minister's predecessor's forecast that the building would be ready in 1941 would appear to be very wide of the mark. Some real effort should be made to provide the capital of the State with an office adequate for requirements and tolerable from the point of view of the staff who work in the building.

During the past year I had occasion to address a question to the Minister as to the method by which he fills vacancies of the doorkeeper class in the Post Office at Dublin. The Minister then contended that he had the right to take in persons to fill these vacancies but I protested then, and I want to protest now, at the method adopted by the Minister on that occasion and I think the House will be interested in the facts of the case. Certain persons who had been employed in the Post Office for upwards of 15 years were employed temporarily against vacancies on the doorkeeper class. They were allowed to remain on these duties for, in many cases, upwards of two years, acting in a temporary capacity. Then it was decided to fill the vacancies and, instead of the persons with 15 years' service and actual experience of the duties being appointed to the vacancies, the Minister proceeded to bring in some political friends from outside who had never performed the duty before, and appointed these people to these posts of doorkeeper. If the Minister has some boys outside to reward for political services I do not mind his rewarding them but they ought to be rewarded out of Party funds. The Post Office does not yet belong to the Fianna Fáil Party or to any Party. It belongs to the whole nation. The idea of bringing in a few friends from outside and planking them in jobs, simply as reward for past political services, is, I think, doing something that a Minister, at all events, ought not to descend to. The people who were filling the vacancies were employed in the Post Office for upwards of 15 years. There was no question of their ability to do the duty, no question about the faithful character of their service. In normal course they should have got these appointments were it not for the fact that the Minister had some friends who had to be provided for. I think that is a thoroughly disreputable method of filling posts in the Civil Service. I hope we have heard the last of it and that some effort will be made in future to aim at a higher standard of cleanliness and purity in the matter of making appointments, without getting down to that type of "spoils" system, which is unfair to people who are employed in the Post Office and which does not at all enhance the reputation of anybody associated with that type of nepotism.

Another matter to which I would like to call the Minister's attention is the fact that a very large number of vacancies of the postman class exist in the country at present, and they are not being filled due to the fact that there is, apparently, an insufficiency of certified boy messengers to fill these vacancies. The result is that these vacancies are being filled merely in a temporary capacity during the emergency situation. The Post Office Department held an examination about two years ago for a certain number of vacancies. About 40 candidates were then called for established appointments, but there is still a substantial number of qualified candidates available from that list. Seeing that the Post Office cannot get certified boy messengers to fill all the vacancies that exist, I would like to ask the Minister if he would be agreeable to draw on the candidates from the last examination who are available, so that these vacancies may be filled and, at the same time, persons who have demonstrated their educational suitability for employment in established positions may have an opportunity of securing appointments to these posts. I do not think any real difficulty would be experienced if the Minister would undertake to approach the Department of Finance for authority to call the remaining candidates from that examination. If he does so, he will be satisfying the claims of persons who have considerable service in the Post Office and, at the same time, filling vacancies which cannot otherwise be filled in the normal course because of the insufficiency of qualified candidates.

While on the subject of the filling of vacancies, I may call the Minister's attention to a matter with which perhaps he may be familiar. There are at present approximately 40 persons performing duties as full-time postmen who, in normal circumstances, would have been appointed as unestablished postmen. The Post Office have apparently developed a complex that nothing can be done in a progressive way during the emergency situation. It may be done otherwise, but when it comes to giving the staff anything during the emergency situation, the Post Office say "No." Their interpretation is that the emergency situation is to be utilised for the purpose, at least, of keeping things as they are, if they cannot make them worse.

These 40 people are employed in a temporary capacity. If they were appointed as unestablished officers they would be allowed increments. Now they are not permitted to get the increase in the cost of living bonus under the Stabilisation of Bonus Order, No. (1), and they are denied annual increments because of the fact that the Post Office will not, apparently, take steps to have them appointed as unestablished postmen. I think that is most unfair. Normally these people would be treated, as other colleagues of theirs were treated, by appointing them as unestablished postmen. By not appointing them as unestablished postmen, the Post Office is getting the work done very cheaply, because it is depriving the officers of increments, and of course it is depriving the officers also of the sick leave privileges which are associated with unestablished status. There again I do not think any insuperable difficulty would arise in the matter of having these officers appointed in an unestablished capacity once the Post Office showed goodwill in the matter. I hope to enlist the sympathy of the Minister for a proposal to have these officers appointed in an unestablished capacity.

Another matter to which I should like to make reference is the effect of the application of earlier summer time on the Post Office services. Summer time started this year much earlier than usual, I think in February. Next year it is likely to start in February too, if in fact it does not start much earlier. Everybody is in favour of summer time during what are regarded as the normal summer months of the year; but when you introduce summer time so as to make it operative, say, in the month of February, you impose a very real hardship on people who are due for duty at 6 o'clock in the morning. They find themselves attending for duty at 4.30 by the natural time, which means they have to be out of bed at 3 a.m. natural time. I think Deputies from rural areas will be familiar with the fact that persons in such areas do not rise very early in the morning, and that in many cases they ignore the new summer time altogether; but the Post Office observe it, with the result that postmen have not only to be out abnormally early, but they have to be on duty at a time well in advance of the time which the local people are observing.

In addition, the postman finds considerable difficulty in effecting delivery of letters and parcels in these circumstances. He finds it extremely difficult to effect delivery of a parcel because he cannot get it into the letter box or under the door. If he is not able to effect delivery, he has to carry the parcel, probably of five or six pounds weight, several miles on his round and then take it back to the post office only to find that he is faced with the same difficulty in effecting delivery the next day.

I do not think that any serious dislocation would be caused if the Post Office were to adjust the hours of attendance, preferably in all areas but particularly in rural areas, in respect to the extended period of summer-time so as to enable deliveries to be effected when persons are available to receive correspondence and parcels and so as to relieve postmen of the obligation of attending for duty at such unnaturally early hours. It has been possible during the emergency situation to revise various deliveries and collections because of the circumstances and we ought to be no less elastic in altering the hours of attendance when, for reasons of national welfare, we find it necessary to adopt summer-time.

I should like the Minister also to investigate the possibility of granting pensions to auxiliary postmen. From time to time I have come across cases of auxiliary postmen who have served the State for 40 or 45 years. Normally they are permitted to serve until they reach the age of 65 and, in exceptional cases, they are allowed to serve until they reach the age of 70. Notwithstanding the fact that they have served the State faithfully for 40 or 50 years, they are allowed to retire without a penny by way of pension from the State. During the period of their employment their wages are small and they are never able to make provision for the rainy day or for old age, with the result that when they leave the service at 70 they find that the only sustenance they have is the fragment of sustenance provided by the old age pension. I think it is most unfair that persons who serve an employer, particularly persons who serve the State, should be compelled to retire after such a long service without any pension. I think the Minister ought to realise that if he does pay these people bad wages during their period of service, he ought at least to be able to put his hand on his heart and say: "Well, I did make some provision for them in their old age." The cost of providing pensions, having regard to the wages of the officers concerned, would not be considerable. I trust the Minister will be able to see his way to have the question examined sympathetically with a view to making some provision for officers of that description when they retire.

One other matter in which I am interested is the question of supplies for the Engineering Department. Everybody knows the difficulties which that branch of the Department is experiencing in present circumstances, having regard to the fact that the bulk of the materials required is manufactured outside the country. I could quite understand that there should be some inevitable curtailment of work because of these circumstances, but I should like the Minister to give the House an assurance that, while possibly there may have to be a curtailment of services here and there because of the shortage of materials, employment will be maintained in the Engineering Department for persons already employed there. In other words, I should like the Minister to say that it is not intended that there will be any paying-off of further members of the engineering staff and that he will be able to find regular employment for the existing staff by the best utilisation of the supplies of materials at the disposal of the branch.

There are a few matters to which I would like to draw the Minister's attention. One is the provision of telephone kiosks in the built-up areas, what I might call the suburban areas, around Cork City. I think I put this matter to the Minister on a previous occasion, but I want to emphasise it again because it has been brought very urgently to my notice within recent months. The Minister in his statement said that there was no extensive area without a telephone service. That statement does not fit in with the facts I wish to put before the Minister and the House. There is a very substantial population in the district immediately outside Cork City known as Spangle Hill. No telephone facilities are available there. It has been brought to my notice that in urgent cases, such as the provision of medical or spiritual aid for people who are ill, especially at night, relatives have to travel a considerable distance to get a telephone service. The same state of affairs obtains on the south side. At present there is a big housing scheme on the Greenmount side and there again no telephone service is provided. Yet in the flat of the city, there are telephone kiosks in every street, although the population is not anything like as dense as in the area I mention. The flat of the city—the South Mall, Grand Parade and Patrick Street— is principally composed of business premises.

Probably some people live over these premises but the area is not nearly so densely populated as the areas I have already mentioned to which hundreds of people have been brought to corporation dwellings from the flat of the city. I think it is the Minister's duty to provide telephone kiosks in such areas irrespective of expense or other difficulties which he may consider are in the way. These people have a right to such services and they have demanded that right from me. I am putting the matter to the Minister now and I should like him when he is making his concluding statement to give us some definite guarantee that this very serious grievance will be remedied.

Another matter that has been brought to my notice is the employment of casual labour by the telephone section of the Minister's Department. I had a case recently in the rural part of my constituency, where a telephone extension was being put in. The regular staff of the telephone department were not able to deal with the work, so they had to call in some of the local unemployed men. The Post Office Department inquired as to what were the rates of wages to be paid to those men, in spite of the fact that, I take it, the Department has a fixed rate of wages for unskilled labour of that type, and I should have assumed that they would put into operation that fixed scale of wages which is applicable to their regular employees. Those casual men will have only a very short period of employment, and the wages which they earn will not be in any way commensurate with the work which they give to the Department. I do not think it makes for harmony to have two groups of men working side by side on different standards of wages. When such work goes on in the rural areas, I think the Minister would be well advised to put into operation the scale of wages which obtains in the Department. I am afraid there is a growing tendency to take the lower rate of wages which obtains in the rural area as the standard for those casual men employed by the Post Office Department. I am sure the Minister will give sympathetic consideration to that point, because, as I say, the necessary work is being done by men who have been unemployed for some time, and the wages paid to them for this work will probably be the only remuneration they will receive for their services for a long period.

The regular men have a standard wage, and it is only right that that rate should be applied to the casual men also. I do not see where the justification for differentiation comes in, and that differentiation does cause a certain amount of discontent. In one particular case, where six or seven men were called in for this work in the telephone section of the Department, they had a very real grievance when they found they were to receive a lesser wage than the ordinary regular staff. In fact, they were rather inclined not to go on the job, but I advised them to take the work and that the matter would probably be rectified afterwards. I think there is justice on the side of those men, and that they have a very definite grievance.

I was very pleased to note that the Post Office Savings Bank is still keeping up its reputation, and that the income for the year exceeded the withdrawals by a very substantial amount. I think that is a very creditable side of the post office work, and I should like to see it extended. In fact, I think the Minister would be well advised to stress the importance of that side of the Post Office work. It probably does entail a good deal of accountancy and so on, but at the same time it is a very constructive social side of the work of the Department. Despite the fact that 1940 was a particularly difficult year, it is very creditable to note that such a substantial increase in the amount of savings—which would, of course, be lodged in very small sums—has been recorded for the year. Those are the matters which I want to bring to the Minister's attention for the sympathetic consideration which I know he will give them.

There is just one matter which I should like to mention, and that is the proposed telephone service from Killorglin to Cromane. There have already been references to the matter, and difficulties have been raised on the question of expense, but in view of the important industry which is now in operation in that district, that is the export of mussels from Cromane, and the importance of the telephone to the future of that industry, I would make another urgent appeal to the Minister and his Department again to examine the possibility of making a telephone service available for the people down there. The necessity for that service has existed for some years. Previously, in regard to salmon fishing, the people down there found it impossible to make arrangements in regard to price. Wires came through to buyers from the various centres, and unless the local fishermen could send somebody to Killorglin, a distance of six miles, the wires would be held there for hours, and no information would be available for the people concerned.

That was the position previously, and now the necessity for the establishment of that service has become more acute in view of the establishment of the export trade in the mussel industry. Even though the cost may be greater than the amount available. I think that service should be established by the Department, seeing that there is an industry at stake, if I might put it that way, and that the livelihood of over 100 families may depend on it. I should like the Minister to look into the matter and give it sympathetic consideration.

Are we taking Nos. 61 and 62?

I should like to mention one point in connection with telephones. So far as my experience goes, and so far as any information which I can pick up with regard to telephones generally is concerned, the service is run efficiently. The only fault I have to find is with the emergency repair service. I think there is altogether too much delay from the time a telephone is reported out of order until the necessary repairs are effected. That delay was particularly noticeable during the last winter storm, when there was widespread dislocation of the telephone service in Dublin. I had various complaints from users of telephones—I am sure other Deputies in the House had a similar experience—about the long delay involved in the carrying out of the necessary repairs. My experience of the matter was that, while the complaints were received in a very courteous manner by the officials of the Department, and promises were made to carry out the repairs as expeditiously as possible, the work was not promptly done. The usual reply given to complaints as to a particular telephone being out of order—in one particular instance, the complaint was made not less than six times—was that priority was given to certain classes of users, such as clergymen and doctors. I think there must be room for improvement in that branch of the service, and I suggest, furthermore, that if such an improvement cannot be brought about, if there is any special reason why it cannot be brought about, such as lack of people with the necessary technical skill to carry out the repairs, a refund of portion of the rent should be made to subscribers who find themselves without the telephone service for a long period.

I want to deal with the booking of calls, and particularly trunk calls, in some of the rural areas. Very considerable delay is involved in getting these calls. The Minister referred to the matter, but it is not to that particular aspect that I wish to allude, but to the position which arises when a person books a call and fails to specify an optional call. Whether through ignorance of the facilities or not, it has happened that although a conversation has not been completed by the end of three minutes, the caller is informed that his time is up and he is cut off. If he wants to complete his conversation, he has no option but to book a further call. If he asks for an extension, he will not get it; and he has to walk out of the booth, book a further call and wait for another 20 minutes or half an hour. I think that is shameful treatment. It is not the right procedure at all. Whether it is the fault of certain officials or the general practice of the Department, I do not know, but I should like to hear the Minister's view on it. I should like to know whether it is a general rule. The Minister may say that the caller may make his call an optional call, but many people are not aware that that can be done. They do not know what an optional call means, and if this procedure is to continue, I suggest that the attention of the public should be drawn to the fact that if they want a call longer than three minutes, they must book an optional call.

Deputy Norton raised the hardy annual of the Pearse Street Post Office, and, as I expected he might do so, I went to the trouble of visiting the place. I must say I was greatly impressed by the premises. There is an excellent structure there which is bone-dry and admirably situated from the point of view of the station. There is a wooden structure there and the Deputy may not be aware that a wooden structure, from the point of view of temperature, is very often better than a stone structure. We have ambitions to build a fine building when the time comes, but a lack of steel and material prevents us going in for anything like an elaborate structure at the moment. I do not know if the Deputy has been through the premises since they were rebuilt in wood, but I cannot imagine the facilities, even when a stone structure is built, for the officials being much better than they are at the present.

The Minister did not talk to the staff the day he was there.

Naturally, Deputy Norton will press for the very best conditions possible, but I think that the present conditions, although I do not deny they could be improved, are very excellent. In any case, the common sense of the situation is that so long as the emergency lasts and so long as there is a lack of steel for structural work, it is not possible for us to proceed any further with the building of a stone structure.

Why did you not do it when you had heaps of steel?

I was not in office then and was not responsible.

That was a national tragedy.

I am perfectly certain there were good reasons for it. The question of pensions for part-time officers was also raised. In regard to the suggestion that services rendered by Post Office officials in a part-time capacity should be recognised for pension purposes, I have to point out to the Deputy that this is a question of general Civil Service application, and not one peculiar to the Post Office. The matter is governed by the various Superannuation Acts and the regulations made thereunder, and any question of modifying the statutory enactments or the relevant regulations is one entirely for the Minister for Finance.

I suppose the Minister could discuss the matter with him.

I should like to give sympathetic consideration to it, but I do not think we shall make very much headway while the present financial strain continues.

Deputy Hurley raised the question of the casual engineering labourers and their rates of pay. Labourers casually engaged for engineering work are paid the standard local labourers' rate as ascertained from the Department of Industry and Commerce. In Dublin, this rate is usually higher than the rate paid to quasi-permanent labourers of the engineering branch. In other parts of the country it is, however, frequently lower. The matter is one over which the Post Office has no control. The question of calling further candidates from the 1938 limited examination for postmen, Grade B, vacancies was also raised. The suggestion that further candidates should be called from the limited competition held in January, 1938, to fill existing vacancies in the postmen class has been under Departmental consideration, on representations which Deputy Norton has already made. While it is the case that a substantial number of vacancies at present exist, for which boy messengers are not available, I am sorry that the suggestion is one which could not be agreed to.

Although it was the intention to fill only 15 posts from the examination in question, 44 of the qualified candidates have already been called and it would be quite contrary to practice to draw further from the qualifying list in view of the lengthy period that has elapsed since the examination was held. Apart from this, however, unsuccessful candidates at the examination, even if qualified, have no more claim to special consideration at the present stage than the many officers who, by reason of inadequate service at the time, were debarred from sitting for the examination. The proper way of meeting the situation would be to hold another competition and, if conditions were normal, I would take steps accordingly. In present circumstances, however, such a course would be manifestly unfair to eligible officers who are at present engaged on military service and who, by reason of their military duties, would have little opportunity either of preparing for or sitting for an examination. The position will receive further consideration on the termination of the emergency and in the meantime the posts must continue to be filled on a temporary basis.

A question was also raised with regard to trunk calls. It was raised by Deputy Hughes, I think. As the Deputy knows, persons making trunk calls from call offices are warned, when a call is booked, that conversation will be terminated at the end of three minutes unless they secure an option in advance for an extended period and make a suitable deposit. If a caller does not book an option in advance, conversation beyond three minutes can only be obtained by booking a fresh call. If there is any way of bringing that to the notice of the public, we shall certainly look into the matter and do it.

Another question that was raised was in regard to the Engineering branch workman staff. The figures for skilled workmen Class II, acting unestablished skilled workmen, youths in training and labour staff in the Estimates for 1941-42 show a decrease of 121 on those for the previous year. The reduction is, however, only apparent, as it is not anticipated that it will be necessary—unless, of course, some major crisis occurs—to pay off in the current year, on account of shortage of work, any of the workmen and labour force at present employed. The figures 580 (skilled workmen Class II and unestablished skilled workmen), 39 (youths in training), and 160 (labour) shown for last year were those which appeared in the 1940-41 Estimates. It was not found practicable, however, to employ this number. What happened was that, in connection with the national emergency, work of urgent importance arose in the early part of last summer and had to be carried out without avoidable delay, necessitating the staffs working long hours and even on Sundays. The money in the Estimates for 1940-41 was thus spent on fewer men than would have been the case had normal hours been worked throughout. The importance of spreading work over as many men as possible is fully appreciated, but in the abnormal circumstances the special emergency works could not have been carried through as expeditiously as they were if additional men had been taken on and overtime avoided. Further, with the very uncertain prospect generally, especially in the matter of stores supplies, some reduction in engineering full-time staff was unavoidable. This was effected last year by not making good normal wastage due to retirements, etc., and by ceasing to take on new youths for training purposes.

Deputy Norton raised a question of the claim of temporary postmen for promotion to vacancies as doorkeepers. While I have given, and shall continue to give, full consideration to temporary postmen for any of these vacancies, I cannot admit the claim that these men should have exclusive right of appointment to posts not in their grade. General qualifications have to be taken into consideration, and I can only say that the temporary postmen have got a very reasonable proportion of the vacancies. I think the Deputy is unfairly representing the situation when he suggests that these other appointments were made exclusively on political grounds. I think that if he examines the matter he will find that the appointments were made on national rather than on political grounds and were given mostly to I.R.A. men. On the whole, I think these representations have been fairly well received, and I should say that the fifty-fifty arrangement has not been unsatisfactory.

But you passed over I.R.A. men who have had 15 years' service.

No. There was no harm done to the I.R.A. men concerned— their emoluments are approximately as good as if they were doorkeepers—and other I.R.A. men may have been put into these positions

Take the Limerick appointment that was made recently. Was that an I.R.A. appointment?

I should like to have notice of that question.

I shall give notice by Parliamentary question next week.

I think the Deputy pressed a little too hard on these cases, and he is too good an advocate, sometimes, of his own cases. With regard to the filling of posts by unestablished postmen, the Department has had difficulty in recommending the advancement of temporary full-time postmen to full-time unestablished rank by reason of doubts as to the continued need for the maintenance of the duties owing to emergency conditions. The general question, however, is being reconsidered and I hope to be able to advise the Deputy of the outcome at an early date. I do not quite follow the Deputy in his remarks about Summer Time, because I was under the impression that no change had been made this year with reference to Summer Time.

Did it not start earlier this year?

No. There was no change this year.

Was there not a change compared with previous years?

Yes, but it was a change that remained this year from last year.

Did it make it any easier to get up in February at 6 o'clock in the morning?

Well, it would be quite impossible for a postman to deliver letters around the city, or around any thickly populated area, according to old time. If my letters were to be delivered in that way, I should have to wait until the evening to get them. Whatever about the country districts, it would cause very great inconvenience where there would be a lot of business to be done. I do not know how you could make a distinction between country and town, except in the very remote areas, and there, probably, the people generally would keep old time in any case.

Does the Minister not know that around County Waterford the only person you would see at seven o'clock in the morning is a postman?

I am not aware of that.

The Minister will see it, if he goes around.

Old time is kept in most of these areas, in any case, but you certainly could not have that arrangement in any area where businessmen live.

Would the Minister consider doing something in connection with the rural areas?

I shall look into the matter, but I cannot make any promise.

I should be satisfied if the Minister should examine the matter.

Yes, but I do not think it is practicable. Deputy Hurley raised a question about the provision of kiosks in suburban areas. I think he referred to an area where new houses had been put up.

The provision of kiosks is very costly, and could only be considered where traffic would be considerable. However, I shall have the matter examined and will give consideration to the cases he mentioned.

Could not some of them be taken from the city and transferred?

It might be more expensive to remove them.

For instance, there are two of them—one on the South Mall and another on the corner of Castle Street and Patrick Street.

I shall have the matter looked into.

Last year the Minister promised that he would undertake to examine the question of establishing kiosks at post offices that have extensions to Civic Guard barrakcs—at least in villages of a fairly substantial kind. Nothing has been done in regard to that matter. Since then Civic Guard regulations prohibit the use of the telephone in the barracks for any public business. For instance, people are not allowed to make what are known as originating calls, and this is causing very great inconvenience in many districts. I should like the Minister to deal with that matter.

I shall have it attended to. Perhaps it may be due to the strain on the telephone service in the barracks. There was a time when, in country places, it was not a forbidden thing to telephone from the police barracks. We shall investigate the matter and see what can be done. Call offices exist in all post offices at which there are telephone exchanges, with very few exceptions. Where there are no telephone exchanges, call offices can only be opened if they are likely to be self-supporting, otherwise they may only be provided under guarantee from the local board of health or board of public assistance.

Applications for the opening of call offices in rural districts are numerous but, unfortunately, local optimism regarding the extent to which they will be used is rarely justified. Many existing rural call offices are being maintained although they are being operated at a loss because, once opened, it is not the Department's policy to close them down. The Department cannot provide telephone services for emergency purposes in rural areas. Nearly all Civic Guard stations have continuous telephone service, and these meet the purely emergency needs.

There was a recent order under which the Gárda Síochána cannot accept any originating calls. Suppose a message comes to me at Ballinalee. The Guards can take it and have it conveyed to me; but, if I want to ring for a veterinary surgeon or some other person, the Guards will be breaking the police regulations if they allow me to make an originating call.

That, I think, is a new regulation.

It has been in force for some two or three months.

It may be difficult to deal with that situation.

In a village the size of Ballinalee I suggest that there should be more adequate telephonic communication. It may not exactly be quite economic to do it, but it would be a great convenience for many people. Of course, the telephone is already there.

The telephone is in the Civic Guard barracks.

And in the Post Office.

I shall have a discussion with the Department of Justice on that point. There is the possibility that under present conditions such a practice might lend itself to abuse, but I will investigate the matter. It is really more a matter for the Department of Justice. Deputy Flinn talked about a telephone service at Cromane—an extension from Killorglin. I can only promise to give his representations careful consideration. Telephone service in remote districts is very costly and the Post Office can only provide it where the revenue from the traffic will cover the annual expenditure.

Deputy Hannigan talked about the delay at the time of the great storm. I do not think the Deputy realises the extraordinary amount of damage done at that time. When reports came in to me about the damage, I was surprised that the staff got through the repair work so quickly. The storm in January was very severe and 1,800 lines were put out of order. Every available man was working overtime on the repair work. The staff worked very hard under extremely bad weather conditions. Skilled staff are required for the work and such a staff can only be obtained by special training.

Refunds are given to subscribers when they are left without service for long periods. My own feeling is that some subscribers are unnecessarily impatient. It is a popular thing at the present time to attack civil servants. It has become a popular thing to make civil servants the butt of all sorts of unreasonable complaints. Of all the services, I should say the Post Office is the most sensitive to the needs of the people and gives the most continuous and patient service.

Vote put and agreed to.
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