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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 11 Jun 1941

Vol. 83 No. 14

Committee on Finance. - Vote 53—Forestry.

Tairgim:

Go ndcontar suim ná raghaidh thar £122,844 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1942, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí i dtaobh Foraoiseachta (9 agus 10 Geo. 5, c. 58 agus Uimh. 34 de 1928), ar a n-áirmhítear Deontas-i-gCabhair chun Talamh do Thógaint.

That a sum, not exceeding £122,844, be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1942, for Salaries and Expenses in connection with Forestry (9 and 10 Geo. 5, c. 58 and No. 34 of 1928), including a Grant-in-Aid for Acquisition of Land.

An cor atá ar an saol de dheascaibh an chogaidh tá sé ag cur isteach ar chúrsaí foraoiseachta fé mar atá sé ag cur isteach ar chúrsaí eile raghadh chun leasa na tíre, agus tá a rian san le feicsint ar mheastachán so na bliana airgeadais seo. An méid iomlán glan —£185,264—atá á lorg sa vóta so, is lugha de £43,991 é ná an tsuim do vótáladh in aghaidh na bliana so caithte. Isé fé ndeár an laigheadú so ná cajteachas measta na bliana so do bheith laigheaduithe £23,881 agus méadú de £20,110 do bheith ar na fáltaisí le n-a bhfuil súil. As adhmad a dhíol iseadh a thiocfaidh an chuid is mó de sna fáltaisí seo, ach fágann san go gcaithfear tarraing an-mhór a dhéanamh ar a bhfuil d'adhmad inghearrtha ar láimh ag an Rannóig Fhoraoiseachta fé mar do rinneadh anuraidh. Ní féadfar leanúint de shíor den tarraing seo agus is cinnte go raghaidh an t-ioncum a bheidh ag teacht aisti i laighead amach anseo, cé go mbeidh an-chuimse sparaí de bharr tanaidheachain le díol ach glaoch a bheith ortha. Toisc a laighead adhmaid dob fhéidir d'iomportáil le roinnt aimsire anuas, agus fós gan aon adhmad do bheith á iomportáil fé láthair, caithfimíd bheith i dtaoibh leis an méid adhmaid atá le fáil sa tír; agus tá an Rannóg Fhoraoiseachta ar a ndícheall ag cur adhmaid ar an margadh atá oiriúnach do shiúinéireacht.

Do bhain dhá chonstaic mhóra le cúrsaí foraoiseachta i rith na bliana seo caithte. Sa chéad dul síos, níorbh fhéidir leor-sholáthairt d'eangach choiníní d'fháil do réir mar bhí gá leis sna háiteanna bhí á bplanndáil. Ní raibh an eangach le fáil ón Mór-Roinn agus ní raibh le fáil ón mBreatain Mhóir ach tuairim leis an gceathrú cuid den ghnáth-mhéid a bhíonn ag teastáil. Táthar ag féachaint, ámh, le heangach d'fháil o Ameirice agus tá dóthain dhá bhliain dá ordú. Ansan arís, maidir leis na síolta le haghaidh na ngarraithe altroma, ní raibh fáil ar na caindíochta dhíobh a bhí beartuithe a chur, ach do cruinníodh an oiread síolta agus dob fhéidir in ár dtailte coille féin agus do slánuíodh cuid den easnamh ar an gcuma san. Ni haireofar deasca an easnaimh síl i gceart go ceann cúpla blian no trí.

Is oth liom a rá gur baol laigheadú do theacht ar an méid tailimh is féidir a chur fé chrainn, ach tá sé socair an oiread ullmhúcháin agus is féidir do dhéanamh i dtreo go raghaidh an phlanndáil i méid an túisce bheidh cúrsaí ina ngnáth-riocht arís, agus chuige sin táthar ag leanúint de thalamh oiriúnach a cheannach d'fhonn gan aon easba tailimh do bheith ag cur isteach ar an bplanndáil nuair a bheidh caoi ann chun dul ar aghaidh i gceart léi. Isé méid tailimh do fuarthas i rith na bliana dar chríoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta so caithte ná 9,483 acra; 12,739 n-acra do fuarthas i rith na bliana roimhe sin. Do ceannuíodh 63 réimse (gan an méid a tógadh ar léas d'áireamh) agus 135 acra is meán-achar do sna réimsí sin. Níl so chó mór agus a bhí coinne leis, ach tá margántaíocht atá ar siúl le Coimisiún na Talmhan agus le húnaerí príobháideacha i dtaobh líomatáistí móra do cheannach ag dul ar aghaidh go maith agus deallruíonn an scéal gur gearr go gcríochnófar í.

Níorbh fhéidir, toisc a olcas a bhí an aímsir, an méid planndála bhí beartuithe le haghaidh an tsaosúir seo caithte do chríochnú roimh dheireadh na bliana agus leanadh leis an phlanndáil thar an ngnáth-am i mbliana. Táthar ag súil go mbeidh suas le 6,000 acra sa mbreis curtha fé chrainn nuair a bheidh an phlanndáil sin críochnuithe, ach is lugha an t-achar san ná an t-achar a planndáltaí aon bhliain le roinnt bhlian anuas.

Tuairim 146,275 acra de thailte foraoiseachta atá ar láimh anois agus tá 102,500 acra dhe sin planndálta agus 24,400 acra dhe nach féidir a phlanndáil. Tá 102 ionad foraoiseachta ann anois; agus ortha san tá ionaid fhoraoiseachta nua i Muine an Mheadha agus ar an gCreagán, Co. na Gaillimhe, ar Thulach na nAspol, Co. an Chláir, i gCluain na nGall, Co. Loch Garman, agus ag Ráth Naoi, Co. Chill Mantan. Ar na réimsí atá ag gabháil le hionad Ráth Naoi tá líomatáistí do bhí ina gcuid d'Fhoraois Ráth Droma; bhí an Fhoraois seo rófhairsing agus ró-scaipthe le déanaighe chun í mhaoirsiú agus í riaradh mar aonad amháin. Táthar tar éis líomatáistí nua eile do fuarthas do chur ag gabháil le sean-ionaid ar féidir iad d'oibriú go caothúil mar chuid díobh. Cabhruíonn so chun na costaisí maoirseachta do choimeád chó beag agus is féidir é.

Tá an tsuim airgid atá á lorg fé gach altán den Vóta so luaidhte sna Meastacháin, agus tá beartuithe agam gan mion-trácht do dhéanamh ach ar na hítimí sin atá tar éis dul go mór i méid no i laighead i gcomparáid leis na hítimí có-réire i Vóta na bliana so caithte.

Níltear ag iarraidh ach £20,000 i mbliana chun talamh d'fháil. Do fuarthas £45,000 an bhliain seo caithte. Os rud é gur i bhfuirm Deontais-i-gCabhair do gheibhtear na suimeanna vótáltar fén Altán so, ní deintear na hiarmhéideanna bhíonn ann i ndeireadh na bliana do thabhairt thar n-ais, ach bheirtear ar aghaidh iad go dtí an bhliain airgeadais ina dhiaidh sin. Timpeall le £6,036 d'iarmhéid atá tugtha ar aghaidh ón mbliain 1940-41. Táthar chun an tsuim sin, maraon leis an £20,000 atá á lorg anois, eadhon, £26,036 ar fad, do chur ar fáil chun talamh do cheannach i rith na bliana so. Ina choinnibh sin, ámh, tá an Rannóg Fhoraoiseachta tar éis socruithe cinnte do dhéanamh le roinnt únaerí talmhan chun 5,262½ acra do cheannach uatha ar £18,054 agus táid, freisin, tar éis a thairgsint do Choimisiún na Talmhan réimsí darb achar iomlán 3,549½ n-acra do cheannach uatha san ar £12,000.

Ina theannta san, do fuarthas timpeall 46 tairgsint á thairgsint 13,859½ n-acra do dhíol leis an Rannóig agus tá molta an talamh san do cheannach ar £30,000. Fairis sin, tá breithniú á dhéanamh ag an Rannóig Fhoraoiseachta agus ag Coimisiún na Talmhan le chéile i dtaobh 8,200 acra eile, adeirtear is fiú os cionn £26,000, do cheannach. Chífear, dá bhrí sin, má bhíonn aon choda móra de sna tailte atá fé bhreithniú réidh chun a gceannuithe i rith na bliana, ná beidh dóthain airgid ann le haghaidh na n-íocaíocht go léir. Ach is gnáth moill do bhaint le talamh do cheannach, mar is minic gur gá tamall fada chun na dteoranta do shocrú i slí le n-a mbeadh an dá thaobh sásta agus chun leor-chearta slí do cheapadh, agus mar sin de. Uime sin, meastar gur leor an t-airgead a bheidh ar láimh i gcóir gach íocaíochta bheidh le déanamh i gcaitheamh na bliana cé go gcaithfear an scéal d'aith-bhreithniú go cúramach o am go ham.

Maidir le cúrsaí altroma agus cothabhála, isé cúis is mó atá leis an laigheadú de £4,078 sa tsuim atá á lorg fén altán so ná gan an oiread céanna airgid do bheith le caitheamh ar abhair fhálta ná ar phágh an lucht oibre bhíonn ag gabháil do shíol-chur agus do phlanndáil. Do thráchtas cheana ar a dheacra atá sé leor-sholáthairtí d'eangach d'fháil agus ar an gceataighe do rinne an t-easnamh san maidir le planndáil i gcaitheamh an gheimhridh seo caithte. Rinneadh iarrachtaí ar sholáthairtí d'fháil as Americe agus, ar eagla na heagla, tá oiread agus a dhéanfadh an gnó ar feadh breis agus dhá bhliain á ordú. Má eiríonn leis na hiarrachtaí sin, ní bheidh ár ndóthain airgid sa mhéid atá á lorg anois agus caithfear airgead sa mbreis do lorg ar an Dáil amach anseo. Isé fáth gur laigheaduíodh an méid airgid le haghaidh lucht oibre ná ná rabhthas ag coinne leis an méid céanna planndála dhéanamh, ach má gheibhtear dóthain den eangaigh, agus é sin in am, féadfar planndáil bhreise do dhéanamh. An tsuim atá á lorg chun síolta agus planndaí óga do cheannach, tá sí ar có-mhéid le suim na bliana so caithte cé gur baol ná beidh sé aon bhlas níos éasca na nithe sin a cheannach feasta ná mar atá fé láthair.

Ag cuimhneamh, ámh, ar an méid a chuirfeadh ganntan síl anois isteach ar chúrsaí planndála i gceann a dó no a trí de bhlianta eile, tráth a bheidh feabhas tar éis teacht ar chúrsaí, le congnamh Dé, déanfar gach dícheall chun leor-sholáthairtí síl d'fháil agus ní tabharfar faillighe dá laighead san oiread síl agus is féidir d'fhás cois baile. Ní healadha do lucht foraoiseachta go mbeadh ortha de ghnáth bheith ag ceannach síoltán agus fásóga ach ní bhíonn leigheas air uaireanta, fiú amháin i gcás é bheith ar chumas na Roinne a cuid oibre altromais do leagadh amach tamall maith roimh ré. An saosúr so caithte do horduíodh timpeal le 868,000 síoltán agus 40,000 fásóga o fhásóirí in Éirinn agus do malairtíodh roinnt planndaí le Riaghaltas Thuaiscirt Éireann.

Tá airgead le cur ar fáil fé altán C3 —adhmad do ghearradh—chun dhá mhuileann sheasta sháibhéarachta do choimeád ar siúl, ceann i nDún Droma, Co. Thiobrad Arann, agus ceann i gCeapa na Corcóige, Cunga, Co. Mhuigheo, agus chun innill trasghearrtha bheaga áirithe a hoibrítear le comhacht mheicniúil do choimeád ar siúl freisin. Sna muilte seasta gearrtar adhmad le haghaidh lucht na comharsanachta agus deintear geataí, cuaillí fáil, agus mar sin de, ionta i gcóir na Roinne féin. Is chun abhar teine do dhéanamh as rosánach agus as adhmad eile ná bíonn aon tairbhe ann le haghaidh tráchtála a húsáidtear na hinnill trasghearrtha.

Maidir le hAltán H—Leithreasaí-i-gCabhair—bhéarfar fé ndeár go bhfuil coinne leis na fáltaisí do dhul i méid go mór i mbliana. Ní féidir agus an chaoi atá ar an saol, lastaí toirtiúla ar nós lastaí adhmaid d'iomportáil feasta. Dá bhrí sin, beidh lucht úsáidthe adhmaid i gcleithiúnas an adhmaid dúthchais agus, ní nach iongnadh, nuair do mhéaduigh ar an nglaoch do mhéaduigh ar phraghsanna an adhmaid thar mar bhíodar sarar chuir an cogadh isteach ar an ngnáth-thrádáil. Ach cé gur féidir, de bharr an ghlaoidh mhéaduithe seo, cineálacha áirithe adhmaid do dhíol anois nárbh fhéidir a dhíol go dtí seo, tá a chontabhairtí féin ag baint leis an scéal. An méid adhmaid atá ar fáil—agus ní méid ró-mhór é—táthar á dhíthiú, agus is ró-bhaol go ndéanfar adhmad anaibidh, ba cheart d'fhágaint ag fás tamall maith eile dá bhféadfaí é, do ghearradh in antráth agus gur measade sin amach anseo na tionnscail atá ag brath ar an adhmad dúthchais agus ina bhfuil roinnt mhaith daoine ar fuaid na tíre ag obair.

Is mó go mór an méid adhmaid atá á dhíol ag an Rannóig Fhoraoiseachta fé láthair ná mar a bhí á dhíol aca go dtí seo. Is mar mhaithe le cúrsaí tionnscail atá so á dhéanamh agus leanfar de faid a bheidh adhmad lán-aibidh le fáil ar thailte Foraoise an Stáit, ach amháin sa chorr-chás san ina gcaithfear na crainn a choinneáil ar mhaithe le cúrasí taithneamhachta. Toisc a ghainne agus a dhaoire atá an gual, tá éileamh thar cuimse ar thein-abhar de shaghsanna eile. I dtreo gur fearr-de a féadfar riaradh ar an éileamh san, glacann an Rannóg Fhoraoiseachta comhairle leis an Roinn Soláthairtí go minic agus tá an dá thaobh ag obair as lámhaibh a chéile d'fhonn an connadh atá sa tír seo againn do chur ar fáil do réir mar a bheidh gádh leis. Ní nach iongnadh, ní fuláir don Roinn Fhoraoiseachta déanamh mar a chítear don Roinn Soláthairtí is fearr maidir le habhar teine den tsórt seo do chur ar fáil don phobal.

Isé rún do bhí leis an Acht Foraoiseachta, 1928, ná srian a chur le coillte a ghearradh as éadan agus a chur in áirithe go n-athphlanndálfaí talamh a ngearrfaí coill de. Sa chaoi ina bhfuil an scéal fé láthair, is beag is féidir a dhéanamh chun cosc a chur le crainn lán-abaidhe do ghearradh gan cur as do shlí mhaireachtana an dreama bhíonn ag gabháil do thionnscail a bhíonn ag brath, go díreach no go neamh-dhíreach, ar adhmad do bheith le fáil. Ach, chó fada agus is féidir é, tá srian á chur le crainn an-abaidhe do ghearradh agus táthar ag féachaint chuige go ndéanfar athphlanndáil pé áit ina ndeintear an choill ar fad do ghearradh agus fós ní ceaduítear fiú amháin crainn fháil ná crainn aonraic do ghearradh gan paiste de thalamh dhíomhaoin, má bhíonn a leithéid ann, do phlanndáil mar chúiteamh sa ghearradh san.

Is maith liom a rá go bhfuil deireadh anois leis an mí-thuigsint do bhí ann tamall o shoin, nuair a bhíothas á cheapadh nár ghá áird a thabhairt ar fhorálacha an Achta so toisc an riachtanas mór náisiúnta bhí ann, agus go bhfuil furmhór na bhfeirmeoirí móra agus na gceannaithe adhmaid ag déanamh do réir mar a héilítear ortha leis an Acht. Ina dhiaidh sin is uile, is minic fós do gheibhtear gearáin i dtaobh an tAcht do bheith á shárú, agus is beag gearán aca san ná bunuítear imeachta dlí mar gheall air má bhíonn fianaise chinnte ar fáil.

Is mó scéal a gheibheann an Roinn i dtaobh gearradh na gcrann do bheith ag dul i méid ar fuaid na tíre agus á mholadh nár cheart a cheadú crainn ar bith a leagadh no ag gearán go bhfuil easportáil thar cuimse á dhéanamh ar an adhmad. Maidir leis na gearáin seo, ba mhaith liom a rá nach buntáiste ar bith aon tráth crainn lánabaidhe d'fhágaint gan gearradh ach amháin nuair ba dhochar an gearradh do thaithneamhacht agus d'amharc na dúithche. B'fhearr é beith mar nós againn bheith ag gearradh diaidh ar ndiaidh agus bheith ag ath-chur do réir mar a gearrfaí. Sa chaoi a bhfuil an scéal fé láthair, ámh, níl de roghain againn ach gearradh thar fóir anois agus socrú a dhéanamh chun coillte óga do chur, amach anseo, in ionad an mhéide gearrfar, no ár muilte sáibhéarachta go léir do dhúnadh go luath agus eirghe as gach obair inar gá adhmad d'úsáid. Measaim nach bhfuil ach an t-aon rogha amháin is féidir a ghlacadh.

Maidir le hadhmad d'easportáil, má bheirtear roinnt adhmaid chun siúil as comharsanacht áirithe, ní fhágann san go bhfuiltear á chur amach as an tír. Fé mar atá an scéal ag lucht muilte sáibhéarachta fé láthair, bíonn ortha dul níos sia agus níos sia fós o bhaile ag lorg adhmaid agus, ar aon chuma, tá dlúth-smacht á choimeád le tamall anuas ag an Roinn Soláthairtí ar easportáil an adhmaid. Níor tugadh ceadúnaisí easportála ach amháin maidir le cineálacha áirithe adhmaid ná raibh ach fíor-bheagán glaoch ortha sa tír seo. Bítear ag faire ar an gcúrsa i gcomhnaidhe agus tuigtear dom go srianfar an easportáil seo tuilleadh, má ceaptar gur gá san.

The notes that accompanied the Minister's statement form very depressing reading, indeed. Forestry has got a great deal of public attention in this country in the last two or three years. That public attention would lead one to think that it would be reflected to a considerable extent in this Vote. It is very disappointing to find the exact contrary to be the case, because the whole note underlying the apologia for the Estimate this year is one of reductions—reductions right through—there being a total reduction in the Estimate of something like £44,000, and £24,000 of that amount represents a reduction in the labour employed. I consider that that is a most depressing and disappointing result to present to the House and I think the House ought to express some definite view on that particular matter.

A good deal of the statement of the Minister's notes was devoted to the question of tree felling and to the inroads that tree felling is making on the timber resources of the Forestry Department. One would think that, accompanying that, there would be some substantial progress in the matter of planting. The merits of various claims in connection with forestry, such as a suitable kind of timber and the suitability of certain lands for this purpose, have been discussed and have been the subject of very active controversy during the last two or three years between certain authorities in this country and the Minister's Department. I do not pretend to enter into that controversy or express any opinion about it, because I am not in a position to do so, but it would seem to be ordinary common sense that, as our tree resources are being steadily reduced by reason of certain circumstances that are inevitable at the present time, side by side with that reduction there would be something in the way of a big increase in the planting of trees. It is significant that, in connection with the production of turf, we had already reached a point where it was perfectly clear that there would be no fire in many people's grates next winter before the advantage of getting our unemployed people on the bogs to cut turf was realised.

I wonder what stresses or difficulties will be necessary to make the authorities realise how much more could be done in this country in the matter of planting trees. I say that it ought to be within the competence of the Minister's Department to evolve a scheme whereby very much more could be done in this matter, and whereby our unemployed people in the rural areas and towns could participate in the fruits of a large national scheme of this kind.

I do not know whether it is imprudent or impertinent to suggest this, but it has often occurred to me that if certain lands are not suitable for the growing of timber of a very valuable kind, they might be suitable for timber of some kind, and if the unemployed people were engaged in planting timber, even if it were not a very valuable kind, it would be a more reproductive asset to this State than the condition of drift that we now have and the rather wretched palliatives that we have in other respects for dealing with the present terrible condition of the unemployed in this country. I hope the Minister will be able to give some indication that the matter of reductions in the Estimate will be reconsidered shortly and that, whether by way of Supplementary Estimates or some other way, the question of forestry in this country will receive the attention it deserves.

I am old enough, as I am sure other members of the House are, to remember the attention that public representatives in this country, 25 or 30 years ago, devoted to this subject, as a subject that should get due attention when self-government was attained for this country. Agriculture, fishery and forestry were three of the items that figured in the forefront of the national hopes that were expressed by the national representatives at that time. They would be very disappointed to find how little we have done in that direction, and while the Minister is able to point to the creation of certain forestry plantations in various parts of the country, they are few and far between, and there certainly is no great push, such as we might reasonably expect now after 20 years, in the way of availing of opportunities for doing something of this kind. I regret that there is no sign of anything like that in the Vote this year.

I consider that it is bad economy to reduce a service of this kind. I consider that it is bad economy, apart altogether from the value to the nation of the growth and production of timber, to allow our unemployed people in the villages, towns and rural areas, who are ready to take part in work of this kind, to exist on charity of one kind or another at the present time while in every parish in the country there are opportunities for doing work both in this direction and other directions. Beyond that, I have little to say. I have had contact with the officials in the forestry branch of the Minister's Department and have found them helpful, useful and courteous in endeavouring to explain the various little problems and difficulties that arise in connection with this service, and where other members of the House have had contact with these officials, I am sure they would say the same. That is the story generally. Occasionally, however, there are some little exceptions—not here, but on the outdoor staff.

I think that the Minister would find, on examination, that he has been somewhat unfortunate in his selection, in the case of a very small minority, of the people who have contact with those who are at work on forestry down the country. There have been a few experiences that were rather unhappy. I mean no reflection on the Minister or on the officials of his Department here, who are very anxious to do what they can within the limits of a policy that seems to be always confined within very narrow limits, but there have been instances down the country that have not been so happy. I have had representations from parts of the constituency of West Cork to the effect that men employed on forestry schemes were not always recruited from the labour exchanges. I think there ought to be a set method for recruiting people for work of this kind where employment is available, and that local labourers living in the vicinity should have first claim. I think that that is enunciating a principle that does not bear contradiction.

There ought not to be any haphazard or erratic sort of system with regard to recruiting labour, any system that might lend itself to a certain amount of suspicion. I should like to reiterate my disappointment that the introduction of this Vote does not synchronise with a progressive drive in the acquisition of land and the planting of trees, with a better prospect of absorbing large numbers of our unemployed, so many of whom are with very little hope at the present time.

Perhaps the Minister will be good enough to indicate what is the smallest area of land that will be taken over by the Forestry Department for afforestation purposes? In various parts of the country there are small areas of land that were formerly forest land, before certain estates were sold out by the landlords and the timber taken off them, and I should like to know if such small areas would now be useful for afforestation purposes because, in a great many instances, they are useless for agricultural purposes. I know of two or three cases where there are 20 or 25 acres of such land, and perhaps the Minister will indicate if the Forestry Department would consider small units of that type suitable for tree planting. Is there any prospect of the saw mills at Cong, Ashford, County Mayo, being reopened?

I should like to urge on the Minister the advisability of reconsidering some of the afforestation schemes which have been submitted from various parts of my constituency. Inspectors from the Department were down there and they did their utmost to have the schemes put into operation, but some little difficulties presented themselves, arising out of the rights of certain tenants, and the schemes were held up for that reason.

Recently I approached the Land Commission with the object of getting them to make certain lands available for afforestation purposes. The people down there are very disappointed that something has not been done. We know that through no fault of the Department the schemes were held up, but it is rather disappointing that the Land Commission did not make some definite move towards providing the land necessary for tree planting. The Forestry Department would be doing a great service to our district, and indeed to the country generally, if they reconsidered schemes that have already been approved for portions of County Kerry.

I suggest that it is really a commercial proposition and not merely a question of planting waste land with the idea of giving a certain amount of employment. These afforestation schemes will, I suggest, ultimately pay for themselves and they will be productive of much material that will be of great value to the nation. The people that I represent are very disappointed at the way in which these forestry schemes are being dealt with.

Suggestions have been made for a big forestry drive. I suggest that when the turf production scheme is completed there should be a big effort made, before the tree planting period in October and November next, to organise a forestry drive on the same lines as the great turf drive. Afforestation should then take pride of place and the large numbers of men now engaged in turf production could easily be diverted to tree planting. There should be really a nation-wide effort in the matter of afforestation and I believe that in the course of time that will become a real asset to the country.

I observe from the report that has been issued that the value of timber has been enhanced because of the war. The question of the export of timber has been touched upon. I suggest there should be no export at the present time, especially in view of the scarcity of timber for housing purposes. In my constituency housing schemes have been held up. Contractors and workers are unable to proceed because of a shortage of timber. Under the circumstances there should not be any export of timber.

I think the Minister should institute a re-examination in relation to schemes that have been deferred, schemes such as those I have referred to in Kerry. I realise the difficulties because of the war situation and the trouble in finding money for various forms of development. At the same time I believe that if the afforestation idea were properly put before the people, even if money had to be raised by way of loan for that special project, the people would gladly subscribe.

I appreciate the difficulties under which the Forestry Department has to work at the present time. Even if we had not the emergency to contend with, the Department would have other difficulties, particularly in connection with the acquisition of land for tree planting purposes. I am not one of those who believe there is a large portion of plantable land in the country. I am aware, however, that there is a fair percentage of plantable land.

In some cases difficulties arise in acquisition by ordinary negotiations. I am aware of a case where nine farmers who had rights on a certain mountain met to consider selling to the Land Commission. A representative of the Forestry Department decided that it was suitable land for planting. Eight of the people were willing to sell, but the ninth would not agree. In a case like that I suggest that the Land Commission should have compulsory powers. Another question that arises on this Estimate concerns supplies of timber for the manufacture of egg boxes and butter boxes. That is a matter of importance to the poultry and dairying industries, and if suitable timber was available for the purpose it would be very useful.

I direct the Minister's attention to sub-head C (3) under which £2,700 is provided for timber conversion. Provision is made for the runing of a saw-mill at Dundrum, County Tipperary, and a small portion for County Galway. I consider the amount too small to provide for the conversion of timber. While timber is being imported Ashford saw-mills are closed down. It is three years since this estate was taken over and where previously there were 25 to 40 persons employed in the conversion of timber only about four persons are employed there by the Forestry Department, so that the place is practically closed down. As there are large quantities of timber available on the estate I suggest that the Ashford saw-mills should be reopened. The Minister should also take active steps to stop the exportation of timber in view of the scarcity that prevails.

I understand that the total acreage under forestry is 146,000 acres. Can the Minister say what acreage is available for planting? There has been a good deal of discussion about this matter for some years, and I should like to know if the importance of forestry has been exaggerated. Much would depend on the acreage available. As timber is scarce now, possibly steps could be taken to preserve supplies suitable for building purposes. I am afraid the supply is limited but such quantities of sound timber as are here should be reserved for the building of houses. We were dependent in the past on imports of foreign timber for house construction. I am sure the Minister would not approve of the indiscriminate felling of trees, especially in view of the fuel shortage, but it might be wise, in order to safeguard against such practice, that the Department should communicate with the various councils giving permission for the cutting of trees that are to all intents and purposes useless. If that were done useful trees would not suffer the same fate. It would be a mistake if these were cut down. It might be a good move if parish councils were given permission to cut down useless timber. As the growing of timber does not give a quick return for the money expended, forestry is a difficult proposition. I see the point in reducing the Estimate, having regard to the shortage of essential supplies. Could the Minister say whether forestry can be made what some people think a source of great wealth to the country, and can he give the number of acres available for planting? I notice that provision is made for the acquisition of a few thousand acres here and there. The total is not very large, even when added to the acreage in the hands of the Department at present. Apart from the advantages of tree-planting it must be remembered that the more land devoted to that purpose the less will be available for tillage. As far as I am concerned it might be better to have less land devoted to forestry if it could be put to better use in tillage. Perhaps the Minister could give an idea of the value of forestry to the country generally, having regard to the amount of money expended on it each year.

One has also to take into consideration the fact that a quick return will not accrue from this expenditure. It is a waste of time and of money to be planting trees if they are going to be cut down before they mature properly. There is that danger at all times, but particularly during an emergency such as the present. The Minister and his officials will have to take strong measures to prevent anything occurring that would militate against the work they have been doing over a number of years.

Would the Minister say what quantity of timber is being exported from the country?

I agree with Deputy Meaney that immediate steps should be taken to make timber available for the making of egg and poultry boxes. Now is the time to make preparations so that boxes will be available for the Christmas trade. I believe that great difficulty is being experienced in getting timber for this purpose. I am told that beech and other varieties of timber grown in the country would be suitable, and hence I suggest to the Minister that he should see that it is made available for box making.

Has the Minister any information to give the House regarding the forest fires that were reported to have taken place last year in the County Tipperary? Can he tell us the number of trees that have been planted on the 6,000 acres of land that he referred to in his speech, and has he any information to give regarding the Department's activities in the way of offering advice to persons who have plantations to the effect that it would be much better to cut down mature trees rather than allow them to remain and become decayed, when they may fall and cause damage? Would the Minister indicate the provisions in the 1928 Forestry Act with regard to replanting, and tell us to what extent inroads have been made on the cutting of immature timber? He rather indicated that he has fears about that, but did not tell us in the statement he was good enough to favour us with—the statement is fairly long, but not very detailed—what the actual position is. Has the Department any definite policy with regard to forestry operations as a whole, or is it merely taking land wherever it can get it? I suggest there are certain counties which might benefit considerably from the extensive planting of trees, especially land subject to flooding. The planting might have the effect of correcting the flooding to some extent. Perhaps some other Department of State might help in that direction.

With regard to the price paid for land, as far as one can judge from the figures which have been made available, the normal price paid would appear to be about £3 10s. 0d. an acre. Sometimes it is even less than that. Would the Minister tell the House whether any resinous trees are being planted? Trees of that variety are planted in very inhospitable regions on the Continent, in the north of France, and in the north of Spain across the Pyrenees. One notices them there, with the little tins used for collecting the resin. I would like to know if the Department is engaging in any sphere of activity of that kind. Finally, would the Minister say if any suggestions have been made by the Department to the people who are felling trees to the effect that, in the long run, it might be better to uproot them completely than to leave stumps two or three feet high in the earth? I do not know of anything more unsightly than these tree stumps. It might cost a little more, when felling trees, to uproot them altogether, but for my part I would prefer to see that done than to have these tree stumps left in the ground.

I desire to draw the Minister's attention to the mountain fires, some of them very extensive, that occurred last year in the County Dublin. I should like to know if proper precautions are being taken, by means of extra supervision, to see that outbreaks of that sort will be avoided in the future. These outbreaks do enormous damage, especially in areas where planting is being done. Some people, unfortunately, seem to take a pleasure in setting fire to furze. I know, of course, it is very difficult to cope with people who do that, but a warning should be issued, and if people are found offending in that respect in future they should be severely punished.

The Minister to conclude.

I think I had better open my reply by explaining that under the provisions of the Forestry Act of 1928 the Minister may, when granting a licence for the felling of a tree, impose the condition that one or more trees must be planted to replace the tree to be felled, and must allow a period of not less than 12 months within which to carry out such replanting. The number of trees required to be planted under such conditions is usually the number required for the planting of the area on proper sylvicultural lines. The number sometimes seems excessive —perhaps six times, or an even greater proportion of the number actually felled has to be replanted—but, allowing for failures and for thinnings, the final stocking with mature trees should be normal. There is no condition in the Act which requires that any tree to be felled must be cut down within a definite period. As replanting usually has to be done on the ground from which the mature trees are being felled, replanting cannot in most cases be carried out until the felling has been completed, and it is, therefore, necessary to allow in the licence a period considerably in excess of the minimum provided in the Act. I move to report progress.

Progress reported, the Committee to sit again on Tuesday, 17th June.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until Tuesday, 17th June, 1941, at 3 p.m.
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