Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 19 Jun 1941

Vol. 83 No. 17

Supplementary and Additional Estimate. - Vote 74—Shipping.

Minister for Supplies (Mr. Lemass)

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £102,000 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1942, for expenses in connection with the provision of shipping.

This Estimate makes provision to enable the Minister for Finance to subscribe for shares in Irish Shipping, Ltd. I have already earlier to-day explained the considerations which prompted the Government to delay action in the matter of acquiring ships for oversea trade, but when our supply position became critical the Government decided that, notwithstanding the risks involved, an effort should be made to arrange for the purchase of ocean-going ships which would trade under the Irish flag. It was felt that the best procedure to follow would be to establish a limited liability company under the Companies Acts, the directors being nominated by the Government and the company to be directly under Government control. It was decided that the board should include representatives of the Limerick Steamship Co., Ltd.; Palgrave Murphy, Ltd.; and Wexford Steamships Co., Ltd.; a representative of Grain Importers Ltd., and representatives of the Department of Supplies and the Department of Industry and Commerce. The necessary measures to that end were taken some time before the company was incorporated, because the directors decided not to proceed with the incorporation of the company until they were satisfied that they could acquire some tonnage, and they had, in fact, been exploring the possibility of purchasing ships for several weeks before the company was registered.

The nominal share capital of the company is £200,000. Of this, 51 per cent. will be subscribed by the Minister for Finance, and this Estimate makes provision to enable him to acquire these shares. Grain Importers (Éire), Ltd., have subscribed for 87,500 shares of £1 each, and the three shipping companies have agreed to take up shares to the value of £3,500 each. The Emergency Powers (No. 72) Order, 1941, also authorises the Minister for Finance to purchase shares in the company from any of the shareholders. That order further empowers him to guarantee the company's borrowings. The Articles of Association provide for borrowings on debenture up to a maximum of £2,000,000.

The Emergency Powers (No. 72) Order also empowers the Minister for Finance to pay subsidies to the company, and it may be necessary at some stage to ask the House to make the necessary financial provision for this purpose. I may say at this stage, however, that the present intention is that the company will charge such freights as will enable it to meet outgoings, and make such provision as may be appropriate for depreciation and other items. At the moment, the company is carrying on its operations on as economical a basis as possible. Apart from the services of a part-time secretary, no staff is employed. The company has not taken any separate premises; its registered office is in the premises of Aer Rianta and Aer Lingus. The directors are acting without remuneration, and I should like to take advantage of this opportunity to express the Government's appreciation of the services given to the company by those businessmen who have agreed to act on the board. The company does not intend at the present stage to set up any organisation of its own, nor to operate such ships as it may be possible to acquire. The arrangement in mind is that the ships should be managed by the existing shipping companies who are represented on the Board of Irish Shipping, Limited, and if this arrangement should prove unsatisfactory it can of course be revised.

I understand that the board have already examined particulars of some 100 ships, and have made offers, or provisional offers, for a number of them. In present circumstances there are considerable difficulties to be encountered. In the first place the number of suitable ships available for purchase at any particular time is very limited. All ships controlled by any of the belligerents may for practical purposes be ruled out. Until recently it has not been possible to acquire any ship of United States nationality, but an intimation has now been received that the United States Government are prepared to agree to the transfer of two vessels. The board are not prepared to purchase any ship unless they can secure transfer to the Irish flag. Another difficulty is that most ship-owners are not willing to sell unless they can be paid in dollars, and the dollar resources at our disposal are extremely limited.

It is only right to tell the House quite frankly that ships cannot now be bought on a basis which could in normal times be justified by any commercial criterion. The amount of tonnage offered for sale is very limited and prices are absolutely abnormal. Having regard, however, to the circumstances in which the company is established, it must be recognised that in order to give effect to Government policy as regards the provision of tonnage the board have no choice but to pay the sort of prices which now prevail in the market. It may perhaps interest the House to know in this connection that the company has already been offered on one vessel purchased by it a profit of $100,000. Five vessels in all have been purchased up to the present. That number does not include the two offered by the United States Government.

Mr. Norton

What is the tonnage?

Mr. Lemass

The deadweight tonnage of these ships ranges from 7,200 tons to 2,200 tons.

Mr. Norton

What is the total?

Mr. Lemass

I will get that figure for the Deputy. Any repairs which may be necessary on these ships can be carried out at the Liffey Dockyard or the Ringsend Dockyard provided the necessary materials are available. The company will have to deal with various practical difficulties about which I need not trouble the House, but I want to emphasise that these vessels will not go very far towards solving our main problem of getting essential imports into this country. In order to import our normal supplies of grain alone, over 30 ships of the average size of these vessels would be required. Importers must, therefore, realise that it will not be possible to make space available to them for imports of various commodities. In allocating cargo space, priority must be given to wheat, and the company in deciding what freight it will carry to this country will be guided by my Department, which, in turn, will act in close consultation with other Government Departments concerned. The total tonnage figure which the Deputy asked for is 24,100.

Mr. Cosgrave

What is the price?

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy will understand, of course, that the price paid for the ships is determined by the board of the company, and not by me. The prices varied according to the circumstances. I have not got the information which the Deputy requires, because matters of that kind are, of course, within the determination of the board.

Mr. Cosgrave

We have £102,000 in the company. There is nobody else's money in it, practically speaking.

Mr. Lemass

51 per cent. is held by the State.

Mr. Cosgrave

£87,000 is held by a profit-making company engaged in it, but our money is in, dead, and we do not know what is the price.

Mr. Lemass

I can get the information for the Deputy.

Mr. Cosgrave

I think that is advisable.

Mr. Lemass

I want to maintain here the position which has been established in relation to other companies set up under the Companies Acts, that the day-to-day administration of those companies is a matter for their boards, and Ministerial interference with the discretion of the boards would not make for efficient working. Consequently, there cannot be Ministerial responsibility for the details of these companies' operations.

Mr. Cosgrave

This is a different matter altogether. When will the Minister be able to get us that figure?

Mr. Lemass

The total amount paid to date is £567,000.

Mr. Norton

I would like to ask a few questions in connection with this Estimate. The Minister tells us that it is proposed to set up a company known as Irish Shipping, Limited, the State paying 51 per cent. of the capital of £200,000, and Grain Importers, Limited, putting up £87,500, and some shipping companies putting up the balance. The Minister said there was some provision for making either a loan to the company or underwriting some loan for them. Is that right?

Mr. Lemass

The company are empowered to borrow up to £2,000,000 and the Minister for Finance has power to advance money to them.

Mr. Norton

Could the Minister tell us how much money this shipping company has borrowed already in respect of its activities and whether the Minister for Finance has in fact underwritten any portion of the money borrowed by the company?

Mr. Lemass

Yes. The company has spent already £567,000 on the purchase of these five ships and there are provisional commitments for other ships.

Mr. Norton

It is quite clear that the company has spent £567,000 on these ships alone, and may in fact have spent more as I presume the £567,000 represents just the purchase price of the ships. Has the company already borrowed any money?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

Mr. Norton

Has the Minister for Finance underwritten that?

Mr. Lemass

No; it was borrowed in the open market.

Mr. Norton

I understand from the Minister that the company has purchased tonnage in these five ships to a gross weight of 21,100 tons. How many more ships does the company hope to buy? Is it aiming at any particular figure to satisfy requirements? Is it the intention of the company to go on buying ships wherever they can get them at anything like a good bargain in the existing circumstances? If these are only required to supplement our present shipping resources, what quantity of shipping would it be necessary for the company to purchase in order that, with existing tonnage, we would be in a position to have a reasonable mercantile marine to transport to us such goods as we are likely to get, in the existing circumstances? I think the Minister may at this stage have found an opportunity to tell us how much tonnage is under our flag, how much is nationally controlled, what is the gross tonnage nationally controlled by existing Irish shipping companies and what is the gross tonnage registered under our flag, not controlled actually by Irish shipping companies. What is the estimated tonnage required to transport to us the commodities of which we are in need? Information on these matters might help us to some appreciation of the extent of our shipping resources and might give us a picture of the extent to which these shipping resources may be used to supply our requirements. I can quite understand, of course, that all the shipping at our disposal is not of a kind suitable for transatlantic trade and that quite probably some of it is only suitable for coastwise trade. I would like to know from the Minister the tonnage of shipping available to us for this purpose.

Mr. Lemass

We have no ocean-going ships except those owned by this company-none capable of crossing the Atlantic.

Mr. Norton

Is a 2,000-ton ship capable of crossing the Atlantic?

Mr. Lemass

In the summer.

Mr. Dillon

It depends on the type of ship. If it can go to Tunis it can get across the Atlantic.

Mr. Norton

Would the Minister tell us the tonnage of the two ships bought in America?

Mr. Lemass

I cannot answer that question yet, as the transaction has not been completed.

Mr. Norton

Are we getting these under the Lease and Lend Bill or as an ordinary commercial transaction?

Mr. Lemass

That has not been completed either.

Mr. Norton

Is there a possibility?

Mr. Lemass

I am afraid that question should be directed to the Minister concerned.

Mr. Norton

Were these ships bought by the Irish Shipping Company or as a result of the visit to the United States of the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defensive Measures?

Mr. Lemass

I prefer to answer here for the matters for which I am personally responsible.

Mr. Norton

The Minister is asking us to put up £102,000.

Mr. Dillon

Yes, but not for the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defensive Measures.

Mr. Lemass

For the Irish Shipping Company. These five ships were bought as a result of the efforts of the Board of Irish Shipping, Limited. None of these was of American nationality.

Mr. Norton

We got 21,100 tons, and there are two other American ships. What does that make the total tonnage?

Mr. Lemass

That will depend on the tonnage of the other two.

Mr. Norton

Surely there is some idea of the tonnage, if there has been a photograph of the ships. Even some sailor at the North Wall would be able to tell the tonnage if he saw a photograph.

Mr. Lemass

There are considerations to be taken into account. If the ships have to be repaired, and we must face the possibility that they cannot be repaired anywhere else, then they must be of dimensions which can be accommodated in the dockyard here. We must also take into account the type of fuel they use and the length of voyage without refuelling. The American Government has stated it is prepared to agree to the transfer to our flag of two ships purchased by us. Up to the present they have refused to agree to transfer to our flag, but the transaction in connection with the purchase of ships has not been completed.

Mr. Norton

Do I understand that the United States Government has agreed to the transfer to our registration of two ships, whose names and tonnage have not been determined, but that from our point of view we must make sure if they can get into our dockyard for repairs?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

Mr. Norton

So at the moment we do not really know the tonnage of the ships?

Mr. Lemass

No.

Mr. Norton

Can the Minister give us any indication as to whether Irish Shipping, Limited, hope to get any more?

Mr. Lemass

Yes. At least, they have plans outstanding for the purchase of some other ships, and we hope they will get some of them.

Mr. Dillon

And we hope there are others they will not get.

Mr. Norton

Is there a possibility of our getting another 24,000 tons, and when?

Mr. Lemass

The chances of increasing the tonnage are getting poorer and poorer.

Mr. Dillon

Not to speak of engineers.

Mr. Norton

The chances of a second 24,000 tons are not as good as for the first 24,000 tons? Would the Minister say whether it is intended to use these ships entirely on the American trade, or at all for cross-channel trade?

Mr. Lemass

They will not be used on the cross-channel trade at all.

Mr. Norton

Merely on the Atlantic trade?

Mr. Lemass

They may go to Lisbon, of course.

Mr. Norton

Is any one of these five ships the two ships which have come to Lisbon?

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy misunderstands me. The wheat brought into Lisbon was transferred in American ships, which are not prohibited by American law from going to Lisbon. We booked the space, therefore, on these American ships but we must bring the wheat from Lisbon to this country. That is being done by Irish Shipping, Limited, partly in its own ships. The ship which came in yesterday was not of Irish nationality but was chartered by us. Some of the existing Irish ships are capable of making that voyage.

Mr. Norton

One last question: Could the Minister indicate at what speed we would be capable of importing wheat from America, assuming these 24,000 tons of shipping were available for a continuous Atlantic trade in the conveyance of wheat?

Mr. Lemass

I should not like to answer that question. All those ships were purchased in various places. Some had to be repaired and overhauled and it will be some time before the five of them will be in constant service.

Mr. Norton

How many have we in service?

Mr. Lemass

Five.

Mr. Norton

Actually in our dockyard?

Mr. Lemass

None of them.

Mr. Norton

When do we hope to have them?

Mr. Lemass

One was purchased in Dublin.

Mr. Norton

The other four are not yet in our possession?

Mr. Lemass

They are in our possession.

Mr. Norton

But they are not in our physical possession, though they are in our ownership?

Mr. Lemass

That is true.

Mr. Norton

When do we hope to get them?

Mr. Lemass

There are a number of problems to solve.

Mr. Dillon

Including that of getting some of them afloat?

Mr. Lemass

They are all afloat. The problem of getting crews to them is a serious one.

Mr. Norton

Would the Minister say two months' time?

Mr. Lemass

Accidents will happen, and I would not like to commit myself.

Mr. Norton

Barring accidents?

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy will understand that the first problem is to make the ships seaworthy. Some of them are quite seaworthy, while others will need to undergo certain repairs and overhaul, to adapt them for the trade in which they are to engage. The next problem is to get crews to them and the Deputy will appreciate that that is by far the most serious part of the problem.

Mr. Norton

I do, well.

Mr. Lemass

So far as getting crews on to the ships is concerned, how long that is going to take, what difficulties may arise, and what accidents may befall, it is impossible to say. But the company is making every effort to get these ships into service as quickly as possible.

Mr. Norton

Bearing in mind all the risks, and taking some credit for possible good luck, when are we likely to have these ships in our possession, having regard to the fact that they have to be made seaworthy, probably repaired, and crews secured for them?

Mr. Lemass

I could not attempt to form an estimate.

Mr. Dillon

I think there is a great deal of nonsense talked about this mercantile business. There are a lot of people in this country who think that all you have to do is to go out and buy ships, say "whoopee," and off they sail and you have an Irish mercantile marine. That is all "cod." If you want a mercantile marine here, even in peace time, not to mind under war conditions, you have to go into competition with countries that are prepared to subsidise shipping. The United States of America are prepared to pay all the expenses of a steamer on its outward and inward journeys. That is only one country that subsidises shipping and the only country not subsidising shipping is Great Britain, so far as I am aware.

If we were to maintain a mercantile marine here which would not go bankrupt in five years, it would cost £1,000,000 a year to keep our flag on the seven seas. Even if we had a mercantile marine which was capable of bringing in a substantial proportion of what we annually consume, it would cost us nearly £5,000,000 a year. That is the sum that would go out of our Exchequer just to have the glorious, warm feeling that the flag of Ireland is flying on the seven seas. If that is considered good business, even in peace time, I think it is daft.

Suppose every ship coming to this country had our flag flying on it, we would have facing us the problem of return cargoes. A ship would discharge its cargo at the North Wall or Cork and then would probably have to leave this country in ballast to look for a return cargo elsewhere.

Occasionally it might get a quarter or a half cargo here, but in all probability it would have to go on tramp. There are three or four men in England who are experts in the tramp-steamer trade and, unless you are an old and wary hand at the business, you do not willingly go into the tramp trade, because if you do not know all the tricks you are liable to be left, and badly left.

Now, as to the activities of the Shipping Company, it seems clear from what Deputy Norton says that he feels at this hour in the emergency that all you have to do is to go out and buy ships, the ships start emitting smoke from their funnels, and then they plough the ocean. Unfortunately, ships do not travel without crews.

Mr. Norton

That is surely a revelation to me.

Mr. Dillon

I think what I am going to tell the Deputy will be a revelation to him. What astonishes me is that the Deputy prances into a discussion like this without making some inquiries beforehand. It is quite possible to get crews. I have no doubt we have plenty of sailors to man all the ships that could sail into or out of Irish ports, but the main difficulty is to get engineers, competent engineers. If the Deputy could get a competent engine-room staff to run these ships, I am sure the Government would be deeply in his debt. Then, having got his engineers, if they are sober and sane engineers, perhaps the Deputy could devise some plan which will prevent some other shipping company paying a higher price for the services of those sane and sober engineers than our company would be in a position to pay. If he can do that he is a more ingenious man than I think he is. My information is that if you can get a sane and sober ship's engineer, let his name and the colour of his hair come to the knowledge of shipping authorities in New York or Great Britain and they will be prepared to give him 50 per cent. above any figure the Irish Shipping Company will offer.

Mr. Hickey

They are not so liberal as that, and engineers are not quite so scarce.

Mr. Dillon

I wonder how successful the Deputy would be if he went out to find engineers. I doubt if he could find them. Has the Minister experienced any difficulty in regard to that matter? I think it is one of the principal difficulties—that is, getting an engine-room staff. These men are highly skilled, and every shipping company is clamouring for them, not only for the merchant service but for ordinary naval purposes.

I do not want to approach this question from the point of view of members of the Labour Party, who suggest that the Government have been remiss in regard to providing these shipping facilities. I do not think they have. It is very easy to make the case that we should get these ships. I suggest that it is all "cod", and yet it is considered good enough for the cross-roads by some Deputies. I know very well that the fellows down at home will swallow that flying, and they cannot see why the Government should not get 50 ships. If you present the difficulties to them, they will merely shrug their shoulders and say, "Oh, well."

Even if you have the ships, what is the position? Adolf Hitler has told us that he will sink any ship of ours that he can lay his claws on within 60 miles of the coast of Ireland. He is a resourceful gentleman, and apparently we are concerned to maintain his good will. When his airmen dropped bombs on the North Strand he made it the occasion to say that the relations between Germany and ourselves are so excellent that he is prepared to pay for the damage caused by bombs his airmen never dropped. Hitler has said that if any ship comes within 60 miles of our coast he will sink it, if he can get his claws on it. I put it to Deputies on the Labour Benches, is it true or untrue that Hitler will sink our ships if they come within 60 miles of our shores? Does anyone challenge that? There is not a yap out of the whole lot of you.

Donnchadh O Briain

Go out and fight him.

Mr. Dillon

What I have said is the plain fact, and our Government know that if Adolf Hitler can get his claws on any Irish shipping approaching the coast of Ireland with goods he will sink it. Is that not true?

Mr. Davin

The Deputy is getting away with a good deal.

Mr. Dillon

I am stating the facts. Can anyone challenge what I have said?

An Ceann Comhairle

Perhaps the Deputy would now deal with the purchase of ships?

Mr. Dillon

I am dealing with the mercantile marine of this country and the clap-trap that is talked about it. I want to say a few words about the activities of this company that has been established. I am going to suggest that one of the first purchases they made was a ship called the "Vassilios Destonnus". It was bought in Lisbon. I suggest that was a ship of 6,250 tons. The history of that ship is this——

Mr. Lemass

I have explained that the activities of this company are controlled by this board and not by me. The board is independent of Ministerial control. I think it is undesirable that businessmen acting on this board without remuneration should have aspersions cast upon their ability or their conduct. I am prepared to answer anything for which I am responsible, but I think it is undesirable that attacks should be made on the board of this company, on men who are not here to defend themselves and for whose activities I am not responsible.

Mr. Dillon

I am not saying anything against the men at all, but, when they are going to spend my money, surely I am entitled to ask what they are going to spend it on?

Mr. Lemass

If the Chair does not take that point of view I suggest to the Deputy the inadvisability of proceeding on that line.

Mr. Dillon

If the Minister comes here and says that he wants £100,000, or that he wants power to guarantee up to £2,000,000, or that he wants money to subsidise ships, is there any impropriety in asking what the money is going to be spent on?

Mr. Lemass

On the purchase of ships.

Mr. Dillon

Suppose I say that my information is that one of these ships will not float, do you not think it is time to look into the question?

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy's information is wrong.

Mr. Dillon

That is what I want the Minister to say.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy might have assumed that.

Mr. Dillon

Let the Minister correct me if I am wrong.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is questionable whether the Minister has responsibility in that matter.

Mr. Dillon

He can say so.

An Ceann Comhairle

I refer to the actual purchase of ships.

Mr. Dillon

What harm can be done by saying so? I am not going to make any dark or covert insinuations. I am going to tell a plain story and the Minister can correct me if I am wrong, or he can say that he is grateful to me for bringing up the matter, and that it is all a mistake.

Mr. Lemass

But the harm has been done then. The Deputy can abuse me as much as he likes. That is my job. But these businessmen who are acting without remuneration are not accustomed to that treatment. We require their services, but they may feel that services given in that way leave them open to attack by politicians, and it is not unreasonable to expect that they might withdraw their services. I want to protect people who are not here.

Mr. Dillon

I want to say that there is nothing further from my mind than to say anything against the public-spirited gentlemen who have engaged in this activity, and who have no other interest than to serve the country. There is no reflection on the gentlemen or on their integrity, but surely that does not preclude Dáil Eireann inquiring into the bargains that were made. It is much better to have the matter mentioned in public and the true story told rather than have rumours or any suggestions made.

Mr. Lemass

Contact between the two Parties is not completely divorced.

Mr. Dillon

I think there are certain things that might not be discussed in the cause of national defence, but that might be discussed in a democratic country in the interests of truth. I am told that one of the boats we have acquired is the "Vassilios Destonnus" and that some time in the early stages of the war a syndicate of Southern Europeans made a practice of buying old hulks, insuring these hulks for large sums with insurance companies and sending them on the Lisbon run. In due course the crew would arrive beaming at Lisbon and say that they had been torpedoed. Lloyd's then paid up. Eventually, one fine morning the boys arrived in Lisbon in a rowing boat and told of a terrible disaster to the "Vassilios Destonnus," the bottom having been blown out of the ship, and that they just escaped with their lives. There was great sympathy for them and they went to bed but, on getting up the following morning, what did they find had arrived in Lisbon but the "Vassilios Destonnus" which it was discovered had been abandoned. Lloyd's men went aboard and discovered that the sea cocks were open, but being rusty the water could not get in, and the boys had not the wisdom to wait to see if the "Vassilios Destonnus" would sink, past experience having told them that if the sea cocks were opened a ship filled up and went down. However, they did not know the qualities of the "Vassilios Destonnus." She lay for a considerable time in Lisbon but was ultimately bought by the boys.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy is completely wrong.

Mr. Dillon

That is the story as reported to me. If it is incorrect no harm has been done in bringing false rumours to an end so that the responsible Minister can tell us the true story. When I heard that story I began to get uneasy about an Irish mercantile marine. If we want to have a ship called "Kathleen Ní Houlihan" under our flag I was afraid she might sink ignominiously in Dublin.

Mr. Lemass

Probably the Deputy hoped for the best.

Mr. Dillon

If you pay me that compliment, I would not think she would sink so ignominiously. I believe we have also acquired the "Leda", a ship that is Panama registered. My information in regard to that ship of 7,200 tons is that we paid £200,000 for it. I am told that it was built in Sunderland in 1910, and that the day she left the slip she was sold for £60,000. Of course, we must remember that you cannot buy a ship in the middle of a war at the price that was paid for it in the piping times of peace in 1910. Having made a reasonable allowance for depreciation on a ship that has had 32 years' service, and for inflation as a result of the world war, £200,000 for a 32-year-old ship seems high and unjustifiable. I should like to be told by the Minister if, after investigation, he was satisfied too much was not paid for the "Leda". I am going to adduce evidence and to suggest that too much was paid for that ship. I suggest that we bought a third ship, the name of which I do not know, for £85,000. I understand that she was offered to another man in Dublin for £75,000, and that that man took steps to acquaint the shipping company that the boat had been offered at that price. Then there is the "Atlantic", a ship of 8,100 tons, built in America in 1919. I am told that we offered 900,000 U.S. dollars for that ship, whereas an officer of the shipping company was advised that if a lesser sum was offered it was likely to be accepted. It is well that we should discuss this matter to find out the circumstances.

Mr. Lemass

That is not a reflection on the integrity of that officer.

Mr. Dillon

I am not saying that. I say that the officer was not induced to make the statement through any corrupt motive, but I think the judgment was wrong. It is quite likely that a civil servant, acting as secretary of the company, might find serious difficulty in regard to such a highly technical matter, or that the three gentlemen who were engaged exclusively in the Irish shipping company were not entirely competent to handle ocean-going boats.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy was told that they bought these ships for which more was offered.

Mr. Dillon

No, that the company offered more. The Minister might justify that.

Mr. Lemass

I say that is not true.

Mr. Dillon

It would be possible to understand if the Minister stated that he was told to offer 80,000 dollars, as he knew that there was an offer of 75,000 dollars. Let us come to the point: when the insurance of these bottoms came to be negotiated the procedure at Lloyd's is that it is put through an insurance broker to get the best figure he can. I am going to suggest to the House that the insurance of these bottoms was effected at 20 per cent, and that a person who desired to be made the insurance broker for this company and was prepared to get the bottoms operating for this company insured from 15 to 17½ per cent. was turned down.

Mr. Lemass

Per annum.

Mr. Dillon

I understand that marine insurance is done on the trip and not per annum.

Mr. Lemass

If I received the same letter as the Deputy, I want to inform him that everything he has said is not true.

Mr. Dillon

My contacts with insurance agencies in this city are not as close as the Minister's.

Mr. Lemass

If the Deputy is trying to pretend that he is quoting from a different letter from that which I received, all I can say is that there has been an extraordinary coincidence.

Mr. Dillon

Facts are facts, and no matter how often they are committed to paper they remain the same. I have had no contacts, direct or indirect, with any insurance broker in this city. I am not interested in any insurance broker in this city, and I have no doubt that, when the Minister comes to reply, he will say the same. I am going to allege, further, that an insurance broker on the floor at Lloyd's was offered a slice of the insurance of those bottoms at 20 per cent. after he had been prepared to effect the insurance at from 15 to 17½ per cent. Now is that true? You have a group of marine insurance brokers, who are members of Lloyd's, and do business on the floor of Lloyd's. You have other brokers in the city who will have no contact at all with Lloyd's.

The latter go into the business of marine insurance, for the first time in their lives, because they think there is something to be made out of it, and through their inexperience they will be sold a pup on the floor of Lloyd's and will become a by-word on the floor of Lloyd's. They will be induced to offer Lloyd's 20 per cent. for insurance that an experienced broker had expressed his willingness to take at 15 or 17 per cent. The difference between 15 and 20 per cent. for the insurance of one of these bottoms is £1,000 a week. That is a lot of money, bearing in mind the value of the bottom and the cargo. Deputies will recognise at once that the rates I am quoting are abnormally high, but they are war rates against war-risk insurance. I want to know from the Minister if this is true: that, when we quoted the value of these ships, Lloyd's brokers would not cover them to the full value that we put upon them because they did not think them worth it. We found it impossible to get cover for the total value of these ships.

Mr. Lemass

That is a contradiction of the Deputy's earlier statement when he said that we could have got cover for them at 17½ per cent. and paid 20 per cent.

Mr. Dillon

The rate is one thing and the amount of cover is another. The Minister might be able to insure his house, with any company, for £1,000, but if he went into that same company and asked it to insure his house for £25,000 it would say no, and point out that the figure was absolutely in excess of the value of the house. What I am suggesting is that when we asked, at the 20 per cent. rate, to insure an Irish ship for £100,000, in the event of total loss, Lloyd's appraiser said "no." He said the maximum amount for which they would be prepared to insure the ship, in the event of total loss, was £60,000, because, he said, that is all she is worth. He said that if we paid £100,000 for her that was our business, but that all they would be prepared to pay, in the event of total loss, was £60,000.

That is the circumstantial evidence that I adduce to support the contention that I made earlier—that the price we paid for the "Leda" and the "Vassilious Destonnus" was more than ought to have been paid for them, bearing in mind all the special difficulties in which they were taken over. The Minister, I know, is desirous of suggesting that I want to make some reflection on the personal integrity of those men. I do not want to do anything of the sort. What I do suggest is, that if you are going into the market to purchase shipping at any time, and more especially in a time of acute difficulty such as we are in now, what you require for that task is a reliable British expert, or a reliable United States expert—men who are in the habit of conducting negotiations of that character. I do not believe there is any shipping man in this country who has ever dealt in ships of a greater burden than 4,000 or 5,000 tons. We are now combing the ports of the world for ships of far larger tonnage and of extremely doubtful antecedents, ships that have sown their wild oats in every port in the world, and that carry on their bottoms the scars which only the expert eye can correctly interpret. If my information is correct, the shipping world is a world of rumour and talk, and if you once go into that business you have got to know your way around; you have got to know where you can touch somebody who knows what the true history of a particular ship is. For instance, how could we ever check up on the history of the "Vassilious Destonnus" before we bought her? We had our men sitting here in Dublin. I am sure they would have been very glad to go to Lisbon and see the ships, but it was physically impossible for them to do that. Did anyone from here go out on our behalf to see her before we bought her? I do not believe there did. How could they get there? Did anyone go to inspect the "Leda"? That was through no fault of the gentlemen here. They had no means of getting there. It took us three weeks to find room for the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defensive Measures when he was going to America. Now we are trying to get him home as quickly as we can. While we are prepared to give the vast expanse of Foynes harbour to the British and United States Governments, we are not able to get the small space required for Frank Aiken's posterior to bring him home. In these circumstances, it was difficult for us to send out anyone to inspect the ships before we bought them, and I do not believe that was done.

I do not believe that any ships that are being bought at the present time are subjected to an independent investigation on behalf of this State. Assuming that we wanted to do that, will any Deputy tell me how it could be done? But, if you wanted to buy a boiler, you would first go to an insurance company and ask them to go over it and see if it was in perfect condition. You would say to them: "Let the test of your verdict be, are you prepared to insure it for the full price that I am being asked to pay for it?" If the boiler expert said that he was not prepared to insure it at that price, would you be prepared to pay that price for it? Of course not. Has that precaution been taken in respect to these ships? Did any independent expert, acting for us, inspect their condition before we bought them? Is there a certificate from any independent expert that the price asked bears any relation to a reasonable war-time price for the ships in question? What certificate can be put before this House to show that we are taking reasonable precautions to see that for the money laid out, we are buying ships and not scrap iron? How could the gentlemen who constitute the board of this company have taken these precautions when it was not physically possible for them to reach the ports where these ships were lying when they were offered to us?

I urge on the Minister that, instead of meeting these inquiries in a spirit of petulant resentment, he should face them, and give the House the facts. He is asking the Legislature to put up a sum of approximately £3,000,000 on a blank cheque. We have the right and duty to take reasonable precautions to ensure that, bearing in mind all the special difficulties of the situation, reasonable value is being got for the people's money. I cited specific cases. I have made positive allegations and I want to reiterate that into no part of the context of what I have said may there be read any reflection on the integrity or personal honour of any member of the board. What I am suggesting is that, in the circumstances in which they find themselves, both technically and from the point of view of their inability to travel freely, it is not possible for them to exercise the surveillance necessary to ensure that we get good value for our money. The Minister should now be in a position to say that independent experts will be employed forthwith to furnish him with a certificate that the ships purchased with public money are reasonable value for the money, albeit somewhat dear owing to the emergency in which we are living.

Mr. Davin

Deputy Dillon seems to think that this company cannot possibly succeed unless the directors and, I presume, the Minister, call in experts of British or American citizenship for the purpose of giving the best possible advice. That is the unfortunate view which seems to prevail amongst a number of people in this country—that you cannot get a transport manager, a shipping manager, an insurance manager or the manager of any big commercial institution from amongst our own people. Unfortunately, that view has been acted upon. Does Deputy Dillon know that some of the best men on ships to-day in every part of the world are Irish-born citizens? Some of the most experienced captains of the biggest liners afloat to-day, as well as some of the best engineers in the engine rooms of ships at sea, are Irish citizens.

Mr. Dillon

Call them in and avail of their advice.

Mr. Davin

If that be so, why suggest that this company cannot succeed without calling in British or American experts?

Mr. Dillon

Call in somebody to check up on the ships we are buying.

Mr. Davin

I agree with Deputy Dillon that it is desirable that an independent valuer should act for the Government in assessing the value of the ships.

Mr. Lemass

Does the Deputy think that we would get a ship at all if we had to do that? Has he any appreciation of the situation?

Mr. Davin

I listened with a certain amount of surprise to the statement by the Minister regarding the proposals for the management of Irish Shipping, Limited. I was surprised to hear—I had heard it within the last few days—that the three small constitutent companies that now make up Irish Shipping, Limited, are to be allowed to manage their own domestic affairs and that there is to be no central administrative machine for the purpose of spending the money which the Minister is asking this House and the taxpayers to guarantee. Of the total authorised capital of Irish Shipping, Limited, the three constituent companies subscribed £7,500.

Mr. Lemass

They will have to finance the management of the ships.

Mr. Davin

The three constituent companies stand to lose only £7,500. That is the statement made by the Minister, as I understood it.

Mr. Lemass

The sum is £10,500— £3,500 each.

Mr. Davin

The Minister will agree that that is a small part of the total authorised capital compared with the risk involved to the taxpayers, Grain Importers, Limited, and others who may subscribe part of the share capital. I was honestly surprised to hear from the Minister—I heard it for the first time—that the only official employed by the company is a part-time secretary. Surely, the Minister and his advisers have more faith in the future of Irish Shipping, Limited, than is indicated by the employment of a part-time secretary?

Mr. Lemass

To do what?

Mr. Davin

To watch the operations of the constituent companies, if nothing else. The constituent companies will be more concerned with the successful running of their own domestic side of Irish Shipping, Limited, than they will be with making a success of Irish Shipping, Limited.

Mr. Lemass

We must allow them to run the ships before we begin to watch them.

Mr. Davin

From a limited knowledge of shipping activities, I would say that you could find very useful work for a full-time secretary to a company with such capital from the very commencement of its operations. I hope that the idea of employing a part-time secretary will be got rid of as quickly as possible. The secretary would have a full-time task in attending to the future working of the undertaking, which I trust will be successful. The Minister said that the cost of the five ships already purchased was £567,000. That is a fairly heavy figure for ships of their average tonnage. If the Minister had been wise enough to adopt the suggestion of this Party shortly after the outbreak of the war, he would, probably, have secured these ships at less than half that cost.

Mr. Dillon

Deputy Davin is on the same word as myself.

Mr. Lemass

No member of the Labour Party mentioned the word "ship" here from the 1st September, 1939, to the end of September, 1940.

Mr. Davin

We shall have to ask the Head of the Government to produce the minutes of a certain meeting which took place between representatives of this Party and the Government shortly after the outbreak of war.

Mr. Lemass

I said that they did not mention it in the Dáil and the records of the Dáil are always available.

Mr. Davin

The meeting to which I am referring took place between representatives of this Party and representatives of the Ministry. I am not referring to a meeting of the House. The Minister will not challenge my assertion that if he had been wise enough to adopt the suggestion made not only by the Labour Party but by the Federation of Irish Industries and other people interested in the carrying on of overseas trade, a good deal of money would have been saved to the taxpayers. Better late than never. I hope to see this company succeed. To succeed, it will have to commence on the right lines. I believe that it is imperative that there be a central administrative machine in control of the constituent companies and in complete control of whatever ships are now at the disposal of the company. If you are to get the best value from the point of view of the tonnage now under the control of Irish shipping, somebody will have to be at the centre for the purpose of allocating the areas to which these ships will come and go. I agree with Deputy Dillon that, if the company is to be worked economically and on a sound commercial basis, the people in control will have to do their best to find return cargoes for the ships. That is the one thing that counts in the successful working of any shipping company, whether cross-channel or overseas. It is essential, if shipping companies are to be worked on a profit-making basis, that they be sure of return cargoes.

Mr. Lemass

Does the Deputy suggest that we should not bring in the ships unless we have return cargoes?

Mr. Davin

I would not subscribe to that because I realise that it is imperative to have ships in order to get certain supplies from other countries which are not available to us here. Even if we are to lose on the transaction, we must get these essential supplies in the interest of the community. We must be prepared to accept any loss involved in having one-way traffic in order to ensure that we get those supplies.

I should like to hear from the Minister, in reply to the question which was put by Deputy Dillon, whether the directors acting for the Government, which is guaranteeing the amount of capital of the shipping company, actually employed an independent valuer for the ships already purchased. As far as I know, none of the directors of Irish Shipping, Ltd., are technical men, from the engineering point of view. Some of the directors who are in the constituent shipping companies are managers with commercial knowledge of running shipping companies, but they are not experienced from the point of view of being able to assess the real value of a ship. A captain of one of our biggest shipping companies may have, and I am sure has, a good knowledge of the value of his own ship, but I should not like to depend solely on a captain of a ship without any engineering qualifications whatever, in fixing the price of the ships purchased for Irish Shipping, Limited. Although I have a limited knowledge of shipping activities in cross-Channel services, I have no information whatever in regard to the names, the tonnage, or the actual value of the ships already purchased; but I think it would be helpful to the Minister, in securing the passage of this Estimate through the House, and it would inspire confidence amongst the taxpayers who have to find this money, if the Minister could say that an independent valuer had been employed by the Government for the purpose of advising him whether the ships purchased at a price of £567,000 are, in the opinion of the independent valuer, worth the money in present circumstances.

Mr. Dillon

Where would you get that independent valuer?

Mr. Davin

I could not say, but Deputy Dillon will agree that a commercially-minded person, or some of the leading civil servants who are members of the board, would not themselves presume to say that they should have the last word with regard to the value of these ships.

Mr. Dillon

I suggested that you should get an expert in London or New York, and the Deputy said that was an unpatriotic suggestion. Where can you get him if not in London or New York?

Mr. Davin

I have personal knowledge, and I am sure Deputy Dillon will confirm my statement, that some of the best men engaged on the bridges of the largest ships in the world are Irishmen. If you engage one of these men as an independent valuer, I am sure you would get him without going for so-called experts to London or New York.

Mr. Dillon

Are not these men also in London or New York?

Mr. Hickey

After listening to Deputy Dillon, one need not be surprised that we have not got sufficient shipping in this country. He made a great point of the fact that ships leaving this country generally left without cargo. My experience of shipping in Cork is that all the Atlantic ships generally left Cork without cargo. I know that for nine months of 1939 we paid £823,000 for bringing grain alone into Cork, and during that time there were 19 ships, with a total tonnage of 800,000 tons, sold in New York for £963,000. If this country bought half a dozen of these ships, would it not have been a sound investment for the nation?

Mr. Dillon

Would you send them back to New York in ballast?

Mr. Hickey

I would say that we should be as successful with our shipping as any other country. Norway had 4,000,000 tons of shipping before the war, but this country, even though it was an island, could not lay claim to even 1,000,000 tons. As far as seamen for the ships are concerned, I am satisfied that engineers employed by foreign countries would be prepared to come here to man our ships if the ships were there. When I recall the efforts made by certain interested parties in the past ten or 15 years to start a shipping company here, I think it is a sad reflection both on this Government and on the last Government that we had practically no ships of our own when the war broke out. There were ships lined up in Cobh Harbour—and Deputy Corry can bear me out in this —for the last six or seven years because there was not room for them in the English ports, and they were being offered at £2, £3 and £4 per ton. Here we are now paying £567,000 for five ships. Is it any wonder that we have serious-minded people in the country who despair of our ever getting sense?

Even though we have started at this late hour of the day, I am surprised that we have not a central authority governing the operation of these ships. I should like to see on this board some of the people who were prepared to put down money to start shipping companies in years past. I know from my own personal knowledge that on three different occasions certain people here in Dublin who tried to start shipping companies were crushed out by the combines and by the vested interests. Notwithstanding that, there are men in this country whom I know who have been successful in getting shipping direct to the City of Cork in face of definite opposition.

I have known of the combines to pay a man two days' wages to go out to spot shipping going to certain ports to find out what cargo they had and where they were getting that cargo. The men who faced opposition of that kind are men I should like to see on this shipping board. I would be opposed to any suggestion that any one of these ships would be given to any particular director to work for his own particular area. I would suggest that we should have the ships under the direct control of the board, and managed in such a way that no single director could have them operating in his own area. I am rather surprised that Deputy Dillon should have so little confidence in the Irish people as to think they cannot run ships of their own successfully. Is it not a terrible thing that we are dependent on the ships of every other nation to bring us supplies, even though we cannot provide them with return cargoes? Notwithstanding all that the Deputy said about the uselessness of flying the Irish flag, I am quite confident that we should have quite as good a chance as any other country in the world of running shipping services.

Mr. Dillon

That is true, but the man who lives in Berlin may not think so.

Mr. Hickey

I am not going to draw any distinction regarding dangers to our shipping as between one country and another. I would suggest to the Minister that he should put men on this board who made very serious and honest efforts in the past to establish decent shipping services in this country. I think, furthermore, that the ships should be under the control of a central authority, and should be managed in such a way that no particular area will get a preference. The ships should be sent to Cork, Limerick, Waterford, or any other port where they can be operated to the best advantage.

Mr. Esmonde

I should like for myself to wish this company good luck. I have come to the conclusion that the establishment of the company fills a long-felt want in our national life. For years past I have been of opinion that we should have an Irish mercantile marine. It is unfortunate that we should be setting up that mercantile marine at a time when the promoters must experience all the disadvantages attendant upon the present international situation. It is perfectly obvious to anyone who takes the trouble to look into the circumstances of this country that this is a country eminently suitable to run a mercantile marine.

I have here a note of the number of ships and their tonnage owned by different countries. The Deputy who has just sat down referred to the tonnage and the number of ships owned by Norway. I have taken the figures from the Shipping World Year Book for 1938 and they show that, in 1938, Norway had 560 ships of a total tonnage of 3,505,000 odd, and I say that what Norway can do, we certainly can, and should, do. Sweden had 113 ships of a total tonnage of 670,000, while another small country, Denmark, had 93 ships of a total tonnage of 544,000. The most remarkable country of the lot, a country upon whose shipping we drew before they became involved in the European War, Greece, with a population slightly over twice our population, had 358 ships of a total tonnage of 1,640,000. These figures will be better appreciated if I give the relevant figures for Great Britain who, everybody knows, leads the world in the matter of shipping. Great Britain, in 1938, had 2,081 ships, of a total tonnage of 14,250,000. What those small countries can do, we should be able to do.

I am sorry that we start now under the disadvantages of the present time, but this is an island country and I represent a constituency which has a seaboard both on the Irish Sea and on the Atlantic, a constituency from which some of the finest sailors and sea-going engineers have come. There was sunk recently one of the largest liners in the world, the chief engineer of which bore the excellent name of Redmond. He was a native of Wexford and, I think, a brother of a Fianna Fáil candidate for a seat in this House. If an Irishman can rise to the distinction of being chief engineer of one of the leading liners in the world, it is quite obvious that we have the material for building up any sort of technical operators necessary for ships. I think we require only a little encouragement for that purpose. I do not agree that we should go outside our own nationals to get too much advice in connection with a matter of this kind. What, in peace-time, would operate against our making the flotation of a mercantile marine a success would be commercial competition by chose already in the saddle, so to speak, by those who have control of the shipping routes of the world and of the port facilities and customs, and if we are to build up a satisfactory mercantile marine, we must build it up by our own energies and with our own brains and intelligence, as countries like Greece, Norway or any other country did in the past.

There is the question, which is, of course, the real problem in this matter, of the empty bottom. We have our coastwise shipping companies, which have always operated and, I understand, successfully, but the difficulty of the ocean-going mercantile marine is that while we have plenty of imports to bring from foreign ports, in the normal course of events we have very few exports to send to the other side of the world. That, however, is exactly the position which faces a number of other countries with a number of ships and large tonnage. Those countries share in the carrying trade of the world, and, while their shipping companies may bring essential imports to their own countries, they then go to some neighbouring country and enter into competition with other companies for the transport of exports from there to the other side of the world. Owing to the situation in Europe, which has resulted in the closing of most of the harbours, that is not possible at present, but it is a matter which, I think, would merit consideration when peace is restored to the world.

I do not know how the matter came into a debate on shipping, but, as an individual member of this House and this Party—I am glad Deputy Dillon has come in, because I intend to disagree with something he said—I wish to say that anything he said to-day with regard to the reply given by Germany to the protest in respect of the recent bombings does not meet with my approval and does not represent my views.

Mr. Dillon

I made no reference to any reply by Germany, except that Hitler has sunk our ships, as he said he would.

Mr. Corish

Like other Deputies, I congratulate the Minister on doing something, even at this late stage, to provide shipping for this country. It is rather late in the day, and I think the Minister will admit that, as far back as 18 months ago, it was suggested, especially from these benches, that something should be done to provide shipping for this country. The Minister will also admit that it would have been infinitely easier for him to procure ships then. The Minister may say, as he said in the course of the debate on the Supplies Estimate, that it is easy to be wise after the event, and he will probably tell us that he could not foresee what was going to happen. Apart altogether from the fact that the Ministry made no effort during the last two years to procure shipping, I blame both this and the last Government for standing idly by when efforts were made during the past ten or 15 years by Irishmen to establish Irish shipping companies. It was apparent to everybody that these people started off under a terrible handicap, because the shipping combines immediately stepped in and took such action as to squeeze these people out of business or to compel them to go into the shipping combine. I have in mind the cases of two merchants from the town in which I was born and in which I now live, Wexford, who made efforts to start a mercantile marine.

They purchased ships and ran them for a time, but, owing to the squeezing-out efforts of the shipping combines which operate between England and this country, these people had eventually to join the combine. One of them, I am glad to see, is now a member of the board established by the Government in connection with the starting of a mercantile marine here.

I am surprised by Deputy Dillon's suggestion that we should get somebody from outside Eire to "vet" any ships we propose to purchase. We have people in this country who are very competent to do anything in that connection. As Deputy Esmonde has pointed out, all over the world are to be found Irishmen in charge of ships or in charge of the engine-rooms of ships. I have in mind a good number of men from the town from which I come who are in very high positions in the mercantile marine of England and of other countries and I think I can safely say that, so far as the lightship service is concerned, that town has practically manned the service all around the coast. I am perfectly satisfied that we can get people here absolutely competent to decide whether a ship is value for money or not. Of course, at the present moment it is not altogether a question of value.

Mr. Dillon

Perhaps I might be permitted to suggest a point to the Deputy. These ships that we are in a position to purchase are scattered all over the world. They may be in South American ports, they may be in New York, or they may be in Lisbon. Now, it is not physically possible to get any man from Ireland to go out to the ports where these ships lie, and therefore we must get somebody who is in a place whence he can reach the ship, and the only place at present where you could get such a man is New York or, in some cases, London. My point is that an Irishman cannot get out to see the ships, and all I want is to get some fellow, with no connection with the venture, to go out and see the ship in situ. Is not that a reasonable proposal?

Mr. Corish

I suppose it is, but I suggest it would be very hard to get any independent person in any part of the world who, along with being competent, would be fair and impartial. I believe, however, that it would be possible to get people representative of this country in any part of the world where there are ships. It is possible that I may have misunderstood Deputy Dillon. I thought that he meant sending men from England to South America.

Mr. Dillon

No.

Mr. Corish

Again, coming back to my own town, I want to say this. The Minister has appointed a gentleman, Mr Stafford, from Wexford—of J. J. Stafford & Sons, Limited, Coal Merchants—on this board. That gentleman, even though not a sailor, is as competent a man as you could get anywhere, because he started life with the Wexford Dockyard Company, has ships of his own at the present moment, and is importing more coal than any other merchant in Ireland, supplying the South and other parts of the country, as I think the Minister is aware. In my opinion, the Minister is lucky to get hold of such a man as Mr. Stafford and, although I have differed on many occasions with Mr. Stafford, I want to say that I am satisfied of his ability to serve with distinction on the board to which the Minister has appointed him.

Mr. Hurley

I want to make a few suggestions in connection with this shipping business. I am very glad that the Government has taken this step, and I want to emphasise what Deputy Davin has said already, to the effect that this Party were keenly anxious that this step should have been taken earlier—at least when the war broke out. It was for that purpose that Deputy Hickey who, I think, has had experience of, and close contact with, shipping circles in Cork, raised the matter continually at our Party meetings. A deputation was appointed to see the Taoiseach in connection with the matter and prevail on him to take steps then, but nothing was done. I want to emphasise what Deputy Davin said: that this Party at any rate were alive to the necessity for taking this step. As Deputy Hickey stated, it is a fact that the Greeks, before they got into this war, made fortunes in the carrying trade of this country. We were well aware of all these things in Cork and we tried to make the case to the Government, but unfortunately we did not get very far with it then. On one occasion, the Minister for Co-ordination of Defensive Measures made a very interesting remark in this House.

Mr. Dillon

He did, and the Taoiseach had to come along and explain it afterwards.

Mr. Hurley

That remark was drawn from the Minister as a result of something that was said by Deputy Hickey. As I have said, I am pleased that the Government has taken this step. I think the Minister said, in connection with the docking and repairing of these ships, that they were to be docked and repaired at the Liffey Dockyard and the Ringsend Dockyard.

Mr. Lemass

I said they were capable of being docked and repaired there.

Mr. Hurley

Well, I am not quite clear about that. I have not the information that Deputy Dillon had about gauges, sizes, and so on, but my information is that some of these ships are of such large tonnage that they could not be docked in these yards. I do not want to disparage these dockyards, but there is a dockyard in Cork Harbour which is second only to Harland and Wolff's in Belfast.

Mr. Lemass

I should be very glad to see one of these ships being repaired in Rushbrooke, provided that Rushbrooke is able to repair it.

Mr. Hurley

Well, as Deputy Corry is aware, that matter has been put before the Minister for Industry and Commerce. The dockyard at Rushbrooke has not been working for some time back, but with very little expense it could be put in a condition to be utilised. The basin there for dry docking of ships is second only to Belfast.

Mr. Dillon

Then the sooner you get the "Vassilios Destonnus" over here the better for us all.

Mr. Hurley

Rushbrooke is available, and I ask that that information be passed on to the shipping company. As Deputy Corry and myself have tried to interest the Minister with regard to affairs down in that harbour area, I could not let this opportunity pass without saying something. Cork Harbour, undoubtedly, is one of the finest harbours in the world—no doubt about that—and there are facilities there that you cannot get in any other port in this country. Then, again, I do not know the conditions under which these ships will operate, but I take it they will operate on the Atlantic route, and I imagine that Cork Harbour would be one of the most suitable in that connection.

Mr. Lemass

Do not be too modest. It is the centre of the world.

Mr. Hurley

Well, during the last war, it was a very important port and harbour. It was one of the most important in the world then, and I do not think its importance has lessened very much since. However, I want to make this point in all seriousness to the Minister: that whatever difficulties they may have with regard to docking in Ringsend or the Liffey dockyards— I am not conversant with the facilities in these yards—the facilities are there in Rushbrooke docks to overcome these difficulties. I am conversant with the facilities at Rushbrooke, and that is why I am speaking in favour of it. The docking of these ships is a difficult matter, and I am told—the Minister can take me up on this if I am wrong— that the facilities are not available in the Dublin dockyard, whereas they are certainly available in Rushbrooke. This may be a chance to bring back some little prosperity to that harbour area which is one of the most distressed areas in this country at the moment.

Now, as I said at the beginning, I am pleased with the steps taken, and I hope that the few words I have said with regard to Rushbrooke will be taken seriously by the Minister and by the shipping board. We do not suggest that all the repairs should be done there, but possibly some could be sent to Rushbrooke, and if the Minister has any influence with the shipping board I suggest that he should see that, when some of these ships are in need of repairs, they should be sent along to Rushbrooke docks.

Mr. Corry

After Deputy Hurley's statement about Rushbrooke docks there is very little left for me to say, except that I think it would be a waste of time for the Minister to spend money trying to fit out a mud-hole like the Liffey in order to make a decent dockyard there when he has a decent dockyard in Rushbrooke where there is no necessity to take the mud out of the way.

Mr. Corish

Is there no Dublin Deputy present?

Mr. Corry

Of course, I must admit that there was a certain amount of damage done to Rushbrooke, and some of the shipping was taken out of it. What I wish to say is that not alone has the Minister Rushbrooke dockyard there in good order, but he also has the skilled hands in Cobh, ready and willing to do the work. Men who did such work on some of the biggest ships afloat in other days are still there and to the good, and any repairs that are required can be carried out perfectly there. I think it is our duty to say "Good luck and God speed" to our mercantile marine in its future career, and I should also like to say: Thank God they will not be under the control of the Dáil, because I have heard enough during the last hour and a half, in connection with them, to convince me that they would have to make 365 parts of themselves in order to please everybody concerned. I would also suggest that the headquarters of the mercantile marine should be Cobh and Cork Harbour.

Mr. Davin

Haulbowline.

Mr. Corry

There is no occasion at all to put it into small buckshee ports like the Port of Dublin while we have the Port of Cork there.

Mr. Dillon

Is there no one to speak for Galway?

Mr. Corry

I am sure the Minister will bear this advice in mind, and, since we have started a mercantile marine, that it will go ahead. The more ships we get the better we will like it.

Mr. Davin

Where is the Deputy for Fenit?

Mrs. Redmond

I am very pleased to know we have established in Ireland an Irish shipping company at last. As the Minister is already aware, Waterford is not behind the door as far as having a good harbour is concerned. Some Deputy has spoken of the use of different ports and harbours in the last war. My only wish is that Waterford could be half as good now as it was in the last war. At that time the harbour was a live wire in every sense of the word. Now, unfortunately, there is nothing but decay. That is the experience of the people there who are connected with shipping. Therefore, when the company does start, my earnest wish is that Waterford will not be forgotten, as I am afraid it has been in recent years. There is no need for me to explain the magnificence of the harbour. It has every possible facility. The only regret I had at the time of the setting up of this shipping company was that there was not on it a representative from Waterford City, but I have the Minister's assurance that that does not count against it, that the registered shipping people, the Government and the grain growers, if I remember rightly, were the main sponsors of this company, and that there is no slur on the Harbour Commissioners of Waterford in not being included in the company. I understand that there is no desire to have them outside the Pale, as it were, when shipping takes place, that the fact that it is not represented on the board does not count against Waterford. I ask the Minister to remember that it is there, and has every facility, just as the other ports have that have been mentioned to-day.

Mr. Coburn

I wish to say a few words on the Estimate introduced by the Minister. I do not intend to follow the members of the Labour Party and the other Deputies who spoke to the effect that we are going to have a grand marine company over-night, that we are going to have lovely ships sailing the sea, and that everything in the garden will be lovely. Most of the speeches that were delivered remind me of the man who was foolish enough to count the chickens before they were hatched. Deputy Corry speaks from the point of view of giving some work in the shipyards down South, where the men are idle. He does not seem to care three straws if the setting up of this company costs £10,000,000 or £20,000,000 so long as he gets a few men employed there. I sympathise with the Minister in introducing this Estimate for this reason, that there has been a wave of enthusiasm for ships in this country in the past year or so owing to the fact that we could not get supplies of raw materials because we had no ships. I advise the Minister to be very careful in regard to the spending of money on the purchasing of ships at the present time, ships which must sail the seas of the world. Deputy Esmonde made comparisons between what Norway did and what Greece did not what Denmark did, and he stated that what these countries could do this little country could also do. I should like to tell Deputy Esmonde and the members of the Labour Party that they should be honest enough to tell this House the relative cost of running a Greek ship and running an Irish ship. Then we would know the true value of the comparison. There is no use in Deputies talking about Greek ships and Norwegian ships. Do Deputies know the conditions under which many of these Greek ships, Norwegian ships and Danish ships are run? Do they know the wages paid, in the first instance?

Mr. Hickey

And the coolie labour on English ships.

Mr. Coburn

I do not want thousands of pounds of the people's money wasted. I am not against the thing, but I want to see that there is going to be a return for the money. I would argue that, not alone here, but out in College Green.

I can tell Deputy Hickey or any member of the Labour Party that you will never build this country by talking enthusiastically about what we could do if certain things happened and if the Government did certain things. It reminds me of all the flapdoodle I heard here in 1933 or 1934 about making this country self-sufficient and establishing Irish industries. At the first ill wind that blows there is a tendency for the whole thing to topple over over-night. I do not wish that. Do not think that I am glad of it. No. But I do not want to be bamboozled into the same thing again. The Minister has been put in this position because the Labour Party and the people of this country said we should have ships simply because we were short of raw materials owing to the world war, forgetting that when this war is over the whole situation will change again over-night and there will be ships to burn.

Mr. Davin

And ships at the bottom of the sea.

Mr. Coburn

There will be keen competition between the owners of ships, not alone here but all over the world. There will be ships for half nothing to carry things to this country. Remember that aspect of the situation. We are not a rich country that can afford to have all this grand service. The Minister wants £200,000, 51 per cent., as far as I understand, of which will be subscribed, and is subscribed already, by the Minister for Finance. Is that right? I think £87,000 is being subscribed by Grain Importers. Limited, and £3,000 or £4,000 each by the three shipping companies. In the course of his statement the Minister said that this company had already spent over £500,000 on the purchase of five ships. I, as a member of this House, knew nothing about that. We heard very little about that from the members of the Labour Party or from Deputy Esmonde. Although I am only a back bencher on this side of the House, I want to know who gave those men authority to spend £500,000 on those five ships? As far as I can learn, the matter has not been brought before the House here. The first I heard about it was when the Minister made the statement here. Without going into any details in regard to what Deputy Dillon has said, if Deputies in this House are honest with themselves they must believe that you are not going to buy the best ships under present circumstances; but the fact remains that £500,000 was spent without the authority of this House, and this other £102,000 is to be subscribed by the Minister for Finance, while those other companies put in £3,000 or £4,000 each.

If the Minister is honest he will agree with me when I say that he ought to go about this in a very careful way. I would put it to the Minister now that the money which will have to be spent on the purchase of those ships—assuming that he gets them, and even that they will be able to trade under the most favourable circumstances, which is very doubtful—will not be very far short of from £2,000,000 to £3,000,000. I would seriously put this suggestion to the Minister, and to the members of the Labour Party as well: would not the Minister get better value for the expenditure of that £2,000,000 or £3,000,000 within the country at the present time in the production of things which can be got here, and which ought to be got before the approach of winter—turf, for instance? If I had to choose between spending £2,000,000 or £3,000,000 on the purchase of ships—assuming that I could get those ships, and I am not at all sure that I could get them—or on ensuring that the people of this country would have sufficient turf for next year, I would not have the least hesitation in putting that money into turf.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy does not have to make a choice. We can do both.

Mr. Coburn

What is the use in the Minister saying that? You cannot do it this year.

Mr. Lemass

Why not?

Mr. Coburn

You cannot do it this year, and there are men working on the production of turf under conditions which, to say the least of them, the people of this country should not ask them to endure. That is the way I am looking at this proposition which has been put before the House here this evening. I can appreciate the Minister's position; as I said before, he has been driven into this by the fact that we had no ships, and that everybody comes along and says: "We must get ships." I would ask the Minister and the Government not to walk blindly into this, simply because some people think that if we got ships everything in the garden would be lovely. I am not of that opinion. I happen to be one of the Deputies in this House who never called upon the Government to provide ships. I never lamented the fact that this country did not possess ships. I knew they possessed some, and I also knew that many of the Irish companies which owned ships were put out by Irishmen themselves and not by foreigners. Is Deputy Hickey prepared to debate that point? Let us have the truth as to the reasons why many of the Irish companies went out of existence.

Mr. Hickey

Because of foreign combines.

Mr. Coburn

I am prepared to debate that point with Deputy Hickey. I want to urge on the Minister that he ought to go very slowly in regard to this venture. As far as I am concerned I wish him the height of success, but I know sufficient about shipping and the conditions under which shipping is carried on to know that, even in normal times, the provision of shipping for this country would be a very costly affair, not to speak of the abnormal times through which we are passing. Let us assume for the purposes of argument that the Minister had 50 ships to-morrow morning. Could he guarantee to the House or to the people of this country that he could get cargoes for those ships, and, if he got those cargoes, could he guarantee that those cargoes would be brought safely into harbour?

Mr. Hickey

Let us have half a dozen first.

Mr. Coburn

Deputy Hickey said that one belligerent is as likely to interfere with our shipping as the other. I wonder does he believe that, or is he afraid to say in public what he thinks in private? Deputy Hickey knows very well that only one of the belligerents would interfere with our shipping, and he should have the courage to get up and say it, instead of criticising Deputy Dillon who had the moral courage to get up and say which of the belligerents is interfering with our ships.

Mr. Hickey

I do not know that.

Mr. Coburn

I notice that we have got to be such peace-loving people here that certain of us would even surrender our principles lest we should offend certain people who, at the moment, are engaged in the war. I have stated my views in regard to this matter, and I should like to put them very definitely before the Minister, as I am prepared to put them in any part of this country —that we would want to be very careful in regard to the purchase of ships at the present time, considering our financial resources, and also considering the fact that we have ample opportunities for expending a couple of million pounds within the country, where we are sure that we will get value for it. I am saying that, fortified by the belief that there is no fear of this country starving, because we have within the country sufficient to keep the people alive and to give them fuel not alone for next winter but for the next three, four or five winters. For that reason, I hope the Minister will go slowly in regard to the purchase of those ships. As to the manning of them, it is very easy to say that Irishmen are as good sailors and engineers as the sailors and engineers of any other part of the world, but there is a difficulty at the moment, and Deputy Dillon was quite right in saying what he did say here this evening. He did not decry in any way the qualifications of Irish engineers, nautical or otherwise; what he did say was that it would be very hard to get them.

He also said that it would be wise on the part of the Government to have an independent valuer before they purchased these ships. I am not going to follow Deputy Dillon in the information he gave as regards the type of ship bought. I know nothing about that, but I would not be at all surprised if the facts disclosed by Deputy Dillon proved substantially correct. The Minister will be replying now and, of course, he possibly has a good deal of information in his possession that he did not impart to the House in his opening statement. Again, I say we would need to be very careful here at the present time in going into this thing in a rather blind sort of way simply because we can get up and say that we have a mercantile marine and that we are a great nation. It seems to me that the cost of doing that is something which we should weigh very well.

Mr. Lemass

I do not think we should discuss now whether it would have been practicable to have established an Irish mercantile marine before the war or whether it will be possible to have one after the war. This company was not established for any other purpose than to provide an emergency shipping service to meet the needs of the present time. That fact should be understood. I do not want the establishment of this company to be taken as prejudicing a final decision as to what is practicable in normal conditions in regard to conducting an ocean-going marine service owned in this country. I feel certain that the operation of such a service in time of peace is not nearly as simple as Deputy Hickey has suggested, and I am equally certain that it would not be half as difficult as Deputy Dillon pretends. We need not discuss that.

We set out to buy ships because we could not charter them, and set out to buy under conditions which were absolutely abnormal. There are so few ships available and so many people wishing to buy that this talk of sending an independent valuer to look at the ships before we buy seems to me to come from people who must be living on the moon. How are we to value the ships, and on what basis? The price this company has paid for ships bears no relation to their pre-war value. If we are to send a valuer out to value ships before we take them, we certainly will get none, as somebody else will have bought them first. What instructions could we give?

Mr. Davin

We would want to find out if they were seaworthy.

Mr. Lemass

That is not a question of valuation.

Mr. Davin

It has something to do with it.

Mr. Lemass

If we send out a valuer, are we to tell him to have regard to the normal commercial value before the war? If so, he will need to multiply his figure considerably before he arrives at a price that the sellers will accept. Is he to value them on the basis of the price which might be paid in some country remote from the area of conflict, or the price which might be given by a willing buyer to a willing seller. The value of these ships is what they are worth to us, and what they are worth is the price we can get them at, having regard to our urgent need to bring in supplies.

Mr. Hickey

Surely that is commonsense.

Mr. Lemass

Yes, but commonsense is at a premium here.

General MacEoin

Suppose they do not float?

Mr. Lemass

The position is constantly changing for the worse. The price is going up. Deputy Dillon talked about ships having been offered to individuals here at a lower price than was paid for them subsequently. Of course that might happen. One can visualise the board of this company sitting down with limited resources— the amount of dollars put at their disposal, and which represents all we have, is very limited—and taking a list of the ships available for sale, and picking out those which they think would be best, having regard to their resources. It is no good making an offer to buy ships that cannot be paid for, and consequently, there must be a limit to those available within their means. They may get none. By the time they make an offer, the ships may not be available, and then they may have to come back again and go over a second list of ships available, and by the time they would have made another offer the price may have gone up. That can happen time and again. We are buying in a rising market, in which there are scarcely any ships available at all.

It is mainly due to the efforts of this company that we have the five which we have to-day. I will not say that I know the previous history of all these ships. Deputy Dillon was very facetious here about a ship that was purchased, not in Lisbon as he said, but in a port in Spain. Obviously he was concerned to make an attack on the board of this company. It is unfair that the privileges of this House should be used to attack people who are not here to answer for themselves. We set up this company—the Dáil can refuse to set it up if they wish. We asked independent business people to act upon the board of this company, and there came on the board of Irish Shipping, Limited, businessmen who are giving almost the whole of their time without pay in the national interest. I think they should be immune from the type of attack in which Deputy Dillon has indulged. I feel we will not get responsible businessmen to do national service if, when they have offered themselves for national service, they are subjected to that kind of attack.

Dr. O'Higgins

On a point of order, I understood Deputy Dillon to make it clear to everyone who listened to him in this House——

Mr. Lemass

Is this a point of order or an interruption?

Dr. O'Higgins

I have not completed it yet. The Chair can judge. Deputy Dillon said he had not a word of reproach for the board. On a point of order, I think the Minister is misquoting, in a deliberately incorrect way, the words or statement made, or the gist of the statement made.

Mr. Lemass

I have not quoted him.

Dr. O'Higgins

No, but misquoted him.

Mr. Lemass

There was a lot of humbugging. We were told a funny story about a ship bought in Spain which would not sink because the cocks were rusty. Is that not an attack on the business ability of the people on the board, to say that they did these things that Deputy Dillon talked of? He told us they insisted on paying 20 per cent. insurance, even when somebody else offered 17½ per cent.

Dr. O'Higgins

Is the Minister prepared——

Mr. Lemass

Is this another point of order?

Dr. O'Higgins

——to say that no ship was provisionally bought before ever the board was established?

Mr. Lemass

No ship was bought until the board was established.

Dr. O'Higgins

And the board had to cover up what was already done.

Mr. Lemass

Now Deputy O'Higgins is at it. The board had to cover up what was already done? He represents a group of business men, acting in an independent way, as doing something underhand and discreditable. I think there should be, on the part of Deputies in this House, a sense of responsibility. This reckless use of the privileges of the House to attack people who are giving useful service in the national interest should stop. There was a time when it would not be allowed.

Dr. O'Higgins

This is shadow boxing. Get back to the subject.

Mr. Lemass

It is time this should stop. You may attack me as much as you like, but to use your weapons against people in this country who are not here to defend themselves, is not fair. I ask the responsible people in the Party opposite to put a gag upon those who cannot control themselves, for they will do this nation a bad service. We bought a ship in Spain. It was unfortunate that Deputy Dillon took that one as an example. I mentioned that some of the ships could have been sold within a week or two at a substantial profit. That ship, the "Vassilios Destonnus" was bought in Spain. We could sell it now at a profit of 100,000 dollars, as there has been offered more than the company paid for it to the extent of 100,000 dollars. Deputy Dillon may become as funny as he likes, but let him go to the North Wall when that ship arrives and make his speech there, and it may not sound as funny then. Another ship, the "Leda," which was purchased in New York could, he said, have been purchased at a substantially lower figure. That is not true.

Let us take the question of insurance. Deputy Dillon said that we were paying a 20 per cent. insurance, which could have been obtained for 17½ per cent. Will he get somebody prepared to do the insurance at 20 per cent.? The premiums which will be required to effect insurance on these ships amount to 80 per cent. per annum on the value of the ships, and there is considerable difficulty in placing insurance at that rate. Deputy Dillon says that some broker in Dublin is prepared to do it at 17½ per cent. Will he name him?

Mr. Davin

Per trip.

Mr. Lemass

You do not insure ships per trip. The suggestion is made here that some broker in Dublin is in a position to place an insurance upon those ships at a lower price than the company is paying. We are entitled to ask who it is. Deputy Dillon says he does not know. The company is employing as its insurance brokers one of the most reputable firms of London brokers, a firm of the highest standing. That firm is exploring the market for the purpose of insuring these ships, and it is finding considerable difficulty in insuring them. I am sure Deputies will appreciate how difficult it is to effect insurance of ships in existing circumstances. That firm of brokers wants to know who is this other broker whom Deputy Dillon has in mind, to whom he referred before—the broker who can effect insurance at a lower rate. If we can locate that broker, we will be very glad to avail of his services.

Why must Deputy Dillon make these charges here? He can go to any of the directors of the company and he can have any of these rumours which he mentioned investigated by a director of the company. The position is that the Deputy is prepared to walk in here and refer to any cock-and-bull story that is told to him by some half-baked lunatic outside. Must the people who come to advise Deputy Dillon have straws in their hair before he will not believe them? Surely the deputy leader of the Opposition Party should have some sense of responsibility, and he should at least make some effort to check his information before he gives it publicity. Is it that he is just utterly reckless, or are the members of his Party utterly reckless to allow him to do and say those things?

When we were in Opposition no Front Bench member of our Party would be allowed to make statements of that kind until he had checked and doubly checked their accuracy and was fully conscious that his information was correct. That is why we are here and that is why Opposition Deputies are where they are, and they will be there through all eternity so long as they let Deputy Dillon lead them by the nose and act with such reckless irresponsibility. These ships will be operated under Irish Shipping, Limited, which will, in turn, act under the direction of the Government. The Government will decide what the ships will carry and where they will go. The operating companies will employ the crews and will buy the stores and do all the work of a ship's manager. It is far more economical to do it that way than to endeavour to set up a new organisation under existing conditions. If that system does not operate satisfactorily, we can change it, but it seems to me to be the most intelligent way of doing things.

Mr. Davin

Will the constituent companies be guaranteed a net revenue or any fixed revenue?

Mr. Lemass

The policy is to fix freights which will secure the costs of operation and a reasonable provision for depreciation, but if that is not possible we are going to ask the Dáil for a subsidy.

Mr. Davin

If there is any loss entailed in the operation of these vessels, is the money to come out of the taxpayers' pockets?

Mr. Lemass

It will be necessary in that case to provide a subsidy to operate these ships.

Mr. Hickey

Each director will have his own ship in his own area?

Mr. Lemass

The ships will be owned by Irish Shipping, Limited. There will be no particular area. They will be all engaged in the one trade.

Mr. Hickey

There will not be one central agent for the lot?

Mr. Lemass

They will be managed by the company.

Mr. Hickey

There will be no agent sending them where he likes?

Mr. Lemass

We are going to decide where they will go and what they will carry. All shipping is under Government control. If the Deputy thinks it is wise to build up a new organisation to handle ships in present conditions instead of using the agencies that are there I do not agree with him; I think it would be most unwise.

Mr. Davin

Who is going to ensure that there will be no loss in the working of the constituent companies involving the taxpayers' money?

Mr. Lemass

Irish Shipping, Limited, will own the ships. They will be managed by the company. These companies are operating ships of their own. They will be responsible for the management. If there is a loss in the operation of these ships, that loss will have to be made good.

Mr. Davin

Whose is to be the directing hand to make certain that the constituent companies will be managed in such a way that the taxpayers will not be asked to pay up?

Mr. Lemass

Irish Shipping, Limited.

Mr. Davin

And you employ only a part-time secretary?

Mr. Lemass

I said the company was now employing a part-time secretary. Why should they employ anyone else until the ships are on the seas? That is the plan of operation. Irish Shipping, Ltd., buys the ships and gives them to the existing companies to operate. It decides where the ships will go, the goods they will carry, and the freights they will charge, and it will leave the detailed management to those who know the business of management, endeavouring to ensure that the freights will be sufficient to involve no loss in operation, and hoping to recover some of the cost of depreciation as well as the cost of operation, but always facing the possibility that it may not succeed in that and, consequently, may have to come to the Dáil to ask to be assisted by subsidy, just as every other Government has to subsidise shipping under present conditions. Deputy Norton asked us when we will stop buying ships. We will stop buying when we cannot get any more. We will buy as many as we can get.

Vote put and agreed to.