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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 16 Jul 1941

Vol. 84 No. 13

Committee on Finance. - Vote 3—Department of the Taoiseach (Resumed).

Question again proposed:
That a sum, not exceeding £9,167, be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1942, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of the Taoiseach (No. 16 of 1924; No. 40 of 1937; and No. 38 of 1938).
Debate resumed on the motion:
That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.

I do not intend to follow the Taoiseach into many of the side-shows in which, from time to time, he indulges; into the many fields in which he gambols—and I am never quite certain whether he tramples the grass or refreshes it; I am afraid he tramples more than he refreshes—nor into the various Departments which he has found it necessary, from time to time, to take over—we can, at least, say that the influence there was disturbing if not productive. I will deal mainly with the Taoiseach in his capacity as head of the Government, as the man who, in the last analysis, is responsible, not merely for Government policy, but for the working of the Executive Council. I shall confine my remarks to what seems to me to be a fair examination of what he does in that particular capacity, especially in so far as the internal affairs of this country are concerned—I am dealing, therefore, not with the general external policy of this country, which has been enunciated on several occasions, and beyond the mere enunciation of which it is not necessary to go. Possibly, occasionally, in that respect a little less expression of views might have been helpful, but we can pass that by. Dealing with a much more difficult task, a task that requires not merely proclaiming policy, sitting tight, and maintaining a certain stand taken up, but a task that requires continuous activity on the part of the Government; it is there that I find the Government wanting — wanting in policy, wanting in activity and wanting in work.

It has been impressed upon us and upon the country on divers occasions, sometimes with divers voices perhaps by the Taoiseach and his Ministers, how grave the crisis is with which the country is confronted. That crisis takes two forms with one of which, as I have said, I find it unnecessary to deal: our relations with countries outside Éire. The other deals with the crisis that confronts the country as a result of the future that we have to face, even if we are spared, as we pray we may be spared, invasion of this country, to which the Taoiseach has referred on various occasions in language as lurid as he can command. That internal crisis is sufficiently grave to merit not merely the attention of the Taoiseach and the Ministers, but to call for very decided action. If we look at the policy of the Government in that respect, as shown in action, what do we find?—lack of foresight, doing to-morrow what should have been done yesterday, waiting until crises are on us before anything is done. Now, I think that is a fair summing up, as the country sees it, of the work of the different Departments of Government.

The mere announcement of policy, the mere warning of the people of the seriousness of the crisis that is facing them, and repeated expressions of determination to get the most out of the situation is not enough. We want Ministers not merely to talk in public pronouncements, in meetings at weekends, in allocutions over the radio, about the seriousness of the situation, but we want some evidence that they are guiding the Departments of which they have control to meet these crises, and of that the country is given no evidence whatever. There is a palpable failure not merely of this Minister or of that Minister, of this Department or of that Department, but of the Government as a whole, and it is impossible to acquit the head of the Government of responsibility for that failure: the failure of the Ministers to do their work. Every Deputy in the House can determine how far they are doing their work. That is the failure, in the last resort, of the head of the Government as well. Inactivity, letting things slide, repeated examples of failure to face what the Ministers themselves proclaim, and what the Taoiseach himself proclaims, to be one of the gravest crisis that could face any country are what we complain of in the conduct of the Government at the present moment.

I am not denying the usefulness of some of the speeches that were made, I am not denying the necessity even of trying to stir up the people of this country to the serious crisis that they are facing at the moment, and the more serious crisis that they probably will have to face in the not very distant future, even if we are spared any onslaught of a military kind on this country. Now, that work of stirring up opinion has its place and is useful. but more than that is required from the Government. The Government is not merely a propaganda machine to stir up the people to do something. The head of the Government is not merely the head of a propaganda machine—I readily admit that he is a great pro pagandist agent himself—he has a great deal more responsibility than that, and the Government should lead the country not merely by talk but by action. They should not spend all their energies in telling the country to face the crisis that is going to come when they themselves, month after month, in the main Departments that affect the lives of the people of the country, give striking evidence of their failure to face the crisis that is actually upon us. In view of that, how can they expect the people to take their warnings seriously—looking at that side of the matter for the moment— when, to judge by their own actions as seen in the workings of the different Departments of which they are nominally at all events in control, they themselves are not taking the situation seriously?

Deputies of the different Parties have been in the House during the various debates that have taken place on Government Departments which have mainly the future of this country in their hands, so far as a Government can be said to have that. During those debates can any Deputy say that there was an element of seriousness in the attitude adopted, even in this House, by the Ministers? I wonder if the members of the Government Party are satisfied with the way in which Ministers are doing their work. Are the members of the Government Party convinced, faced with the serious future which has been painted so blackly by the Taoiseach and some of his Ministers, that the same Ministers are really throwing their energy into facing the various problems that confront the country? If the members of the Government Party are satisfied with what they see in the way of performance by the Government and the Ministers, then I can only say that the members of that Party are very easily satisfied.

I wish, therefore, that the Taoiseach, whatever we may think of his various activities in other directions, could spare a little of his time for what he may regard as the rather thankless task of getting his Government to work. It is more congenial, I admit to tackle other problems—they are more attractive in many respects—but, after all, his main responsibility is to see that the members of his Government do their duty to the nation. So far as such vital problems as supplies, control of prices, and unemployment are concerned, one can certainly say that Ministers are not guiding their Departments, and, if we are to judge by the general result, the only conclusion that we can come to is that the Taoiseach himself is not guiding or leading the Ministers.

We are faced, therefore, in a number of cases with what virtually amounts to the collapse of the Executive Council. I would be the last to deny that there are some Ministers who do work hard, who do try to meet the task, the heavy task very often, that is upon their shoulders—and mind you I can see that even where I might be entirely in disagreement with a line of policy pursued by a Minister—but in some of the most important Departments we have no evidence of anything of the kind. Time after time in this House various speakers have tried, and tried in vain, to stimulate the Ministers into doing something. I must say that up to the present either the return from our efforts has been very slight, or else such a lot of time has been lost because Ministers could not make up their minds to take the necessary action that a new crisis has supervened upon the old, and also requires to be dealt with. That has been the history of this Government for a long time past now, practically since the emergency arose—that is complete inability, unwillingness if you like, to try reasonably to forecast what kind of measures would be necessary to meet the future which they profess to know this country will have to face. There is hardly an instance in which one or other responsible Minister has not waited until the crisis has gone almost beyond cure. Then when the crisis is so obvious that its existence can no longer be denied, we have simply hasty hand-to-mouth measures which may palliate the existing disease for the moment but only to pile up more trouble for the future. Is there anybody down the country— Deputies know the feeling in the country as well as I do—who really believes that the Ministers have shown any foresight in dealing with the various matters? I do not think there is, and that is one of the principal complaints I have heard—that complete lack of any understanding of what this country will be likely to have to face even a couple of months ahead.

How can a Department do its work if it does not get guidance from the Minister who is at the head of the Department? I fear that what is happening is this: at a time when the energies of everybody are more and more required, more and more work is being thrown on the Departments on their own responsibility. A Department is getting no effective help, it seems to me, from its Ministerial head. There is simply thrown on their shoulders enough to discourage any body of men who are dealing with entirely new and difficult problems, almost with their hands tied, certainly with their hands not helped, and they are expected to solve all those problems. More and more it seems to me the Government is leaving things in the hands of the permanent officials, and thereby the problems that call for solution have not in any way been advanced towards solution. How can a Department carry out the policy of the Minister when the Minister does not know what policy it has to carry out? How can a Department interpret the mind of the Minister when the Minister apparently, on departmental matters anyhow, has no mind to interpret? Is it surprising, in a case of that kind, that the whole Government machinery should show every sign of disease and collapse? I do not think it is. To expect anything else would be to expect a miracle. If there is that failure of control on the part of the Ministers, then we must ask—I do not think the question can be avoided—what control is there over the Ministers?

There is any amount of complacency undoubtedly. I think it was the second in command, the Tánaiste, who told the Seanad on one occasion that practically the Ministers were supermen, men of tremendous character, energy and ability. Well, if that is so, why are they not showing productive results? There is only one explanation, and that is, that they are not getting the necessary lead from the head of the Government. Either the Ministers are incapable—and that may take some responsibility off the head of the Government—or the Ministers are what the head of the Government occasionally states, and what his second in command flamboyantly states, men of ability, anxious to work, willing to work and working hard. Then the failure must fall altogether on the head of the Taoiseach. It is one thing or the other. If the Ministers are incapable of doing their work, if whatever enthusiasm they had when they came into this House as the Government has disappeared, then again the primary responsibility is not on those men but on the head of the Government.

I think there was a time when those Ministers showed a great deal of energy and when they did guide their Departments. I do not at all agree with the manner in which they did guide them. A great deal of harm was done as a result of the policy they pursued, but it is a fact that when they first came into office and for a number of years afterwards the Ministers did show a great deal of energy, and did show a great deal of initiative; that carried them on; it carried each one of them on. Can anybody assert—I wonder can the members of Fianna Fáil assert—that there is that same energy, that same initiative, to-day? To-day, when this State is confronted with a crisis unparalleled in its history, with a crisis that, if we are to judge by their speeches, is fully realised by the Government, is there that initiative? Can anybody seriously contend that the Ministers give an appearance of leading their Departments, of having any really well-thought-out policy, or of having any systematic methods by which that policy could be realised? Do they give the appearance of men who have anything of that kind in their heads? Surely not. Is not that the reason why there is undoubtedly such a great deal of dissatisfaction in the country? Again and again, the Ministers appealed to the people to face their obligations, to do their part to save the country. Well, the people on the whole do try to respond to that, and certainly they do so with comparatively little grumbling. I do not mind what class of population you take, whether you take the farmers, the labourers or anybody else, I think the amount of grumbling is comparatively little, considering what they have to face and what they have to suffer. It is unreasonable on the part of the Government to complain of any criticisms which they hear from those people. Never I think were our people more patient than they are at the present time, and that ought to be appreciated. Appeals have been made to everybody in this country to do his best. I think the first set of men to whom the Taoiseach should appeal to do their duty to the country, to do their part in helping the country, is his own Ministry. There is at the present moment no drive, no leadership of the officials, as far as I can see. They are relied on, not merely to provide measures to carry out a policy, but almost to put up the policy themselves. There is, on the part of the Ministers, a neglect of their obvious and simple duty.

Even in the gravest matters, there is no information to be had, and the whole position is most unsatisfactory. They do not give information to the House when the House asks for it. They do not take the country into their confidence in the way in which the country should be taken into their confidence, if the picture they paint approaches anything near the truth. Apparently, very often they have not got the information. They are asked in this House on various occasions what is going to be done as regards fuel or matters of that kind, or whether there will be sufficient transport to carry the fuel from the bog to the fireplace, and the answer is: "We do not know." When they are asked whether there will be a sufficient supply of fuel, or whether any more coal will come into this country, the answer is: "We do not know." What efforts have they made to find out these things, or what efforts have they made even to strike bargains, in that particular respect, as regards the provision of the necessary fuel for transport? Is it not disheartening to people down the country to read a confession by the Minister for Supplies to the effect that he does not know whether the result of their work —the fuel that has been produced—will be brought to the place where it ought to be consumed? Turf will be most necessary in the coming months and in the coming winter, but it is not necessary on the bog: it is necessary to get it into the towns, and every farmhouse in the country where there is not a bog. When we ask, as it was asked here in the course of the debate, whether or not the transport will be there to accomplish that necessary task, the answer we get is: "We do not know." I am not at all satisfied that the Ministers have taken the necessary steps to find out how matters are likely to stand. It appears to me that they have simply asked questions and have been satisfied with the answers that were fired off at them; there is no proof of anything in the nature of pursuing the matter further; I think they simply shrug their shoulders and leave the matter there.

These, then, undoubtedly, are the main faults which we have to find with the Government as a whole, and with the leadership of the Government. So far as home policy is concerned, so far as the food crisis and the fuel crisis that, we are told, threaten this country in such a black fashion, are concerned, dry rot has set in in the Government, and what we are anxious to know is where the dry rot started and who is responsible for its spread. Did it start among the Ministers, or did it go from the head downwards? But that the dry rot is there is perfectly clear. Apparently, it is such a painless disease that the Ministers are not aware of it, but there are very few people down the country who are not, to a greater or a lesser extent, aware of it.

The Government are altogether too much inclined to let things develop along their own lines. Their reaction period is very slow. They never act in time. They take steps without considering the effect of these steps, and when they are called upon to deal with anything, they think that a few glib words, as I said here in the House previously, are not merely an answer to serious criticism, but that these glib words are a solution of the problem. In normal times there may be an excuse for that. In normal times people may be taken in by that sort of talk, but people are not going to be sufficiently heated during the coming winter months by glib answers from Ministers, nor are they going to be fed by glib answers from Ministers—and that is practically all we get. What ever enthusiasm they had—and there was plenty of it—when they took over the Government of this country, is not everybody aware that that enthusiasm has vanished? I do not like to say that they have become lazy, but certainly they have become tired. They certainly fail to face their tasks. They have neither foresight, initiative, drive nor governing capacity, and I do not know what worse faults I can find with the Government than these. There is no co-ordination, as far as I can see, between the Ministers, and there is no good in their appealing to the country to make its best effort if they rely on such appeals alone. Whilst it is necessary to stir up the people, they are really undermining the whole morale of the people politically. They are putting them in a worse condition to face the crisis that they themselves know is coming on us unless a miracle of some kind or another occurs, and it is not the business of a Government to rely on a miracle occurring. They should at least take the necessary steps to meet a situation which they see is coming, and that is the one thing that we have no evidence that they are doing.

As I have put it in this House previously, it is not a failure of democracy: it is a failure of autocracy. Never, since this State was set up, has more power been given to a Government than has been given to this Government to deal with the various crises that face the country. Never has less been done to meet crises than has been done by this Government. Autocratic powers, practically, are put into the hands of the Government. They are politically almost omnipotent in this country. How have they made use of these powers? It is not democracy that is being found wanting at the present moment: it is autocracy, relying altogether on the civil servants. The kind of government that is being condemned now by the failure of the present Ministry is the type of government in which a number of people see salvation. Dissatisfied with Parliamentary government, those people think everything would be all right if Parliament were abolished and if power were given into the hands of a smaller body of men. We have that to-day. Power is given into such hands. Anything that they determine is law and is binding. Is their record a recommendation for a new system? So far, therefore, as government has failed in this country, it is autocratic government that has failed, and not democratic government.

What have they to show for the immense power that was put into their hands 20 months ago? The situation, as it confronts the country at present! And during that 20 months—that period in which they have had unrestricted power—what have they done to make any of the coming crises less severe? I admit that they cannot do everything. A number of factors, undoubtedly, were and are beyond their control. Nobody could think of criticising them for not dealing with things that are beyond their control, but we should like to have some evidence that they are managing properly what is in their control and doing something besides merely appealing to the people. If you want the co-operation of the people, and if you want the people to do their part, then we can only say to the Government that they must do their part, and that is what they are not doing. They fixed prices this year; they should have fixed them last year. That is quite typical of the whole conduct and management of affairs by the Government. When they act at all, it is too late. Generally, as I say, they let the crisis not merely prick them into action, but kick them into action. That is the main fault we have to find with them. Remember, on the manner in which this Government is carried on in the course of the continuance of this emergency the whole fate of this country may depend. Surely it is not too late, even at this eleventh hour, to ask the head of the Government to see that his Government face the tasks that he knows confront the country and that he asks the country to face. The first people that ought to show some evidence that they are facing their work and the immense tasks before them are the Ministers. The duty of the Taoiseach, even at this hour, is to see that his Ministers face these tasks.

Probably the greatest trouble that confronts this country during the present crisis is the matter of supplies of essential foodstuffs and essential raw materials for the production of those foodstuffs and for our industries. To my mind that is the one activity above anything else in regard to which the Government have completely fallen down on their job. Not only have they failed in securing supplies overseas, or making any effort to secure them, but even in the distribution of whatever was available they have shown an incapacity to deal with the problem in a fair way and on a fair basis. We have, for example, the deplorable way in which they handled the tea situation. We know that a few months before an acute shortage occurred here the people were advised to buy tea. We know that any amount of hoarding took place. We know that people who were able to do so bought chests of tea. A few weeks later we had a system introduced whereby tea was supposed to be rigidly rationed, and rationed for the poor people to as small a quantity as half an ounce a week, notwithstanding the fact that the Government had been advised from these benches time and again from the inception of the emergency that it would be probably necessary in the event of a scarcity of supplies to have a national register made here, and that where there was a necessity to ration any supplies the only effective way of doing it was by making a national register. I am satisfied, although a lot of hoarding occurred when we were advised to buy in supplies of tea and those who were able to do so bought tea, that every individual is not rationed to half an ounce of tea and that the system of rationing does not operate fairly.

It is the same way with the sugar position. We have at present a scarcity of sugar. Some people cannot get sugar, while other people can get a lot of it, because the sugar situation has not been handled in a proper way. People were permitted to buy sugar freely before the Budget and a good deal of forestalling occurred. Some people were advised that there would be a tax on sugar, with the result that the sugar was issued by the sugar company wholesale to anyone who was prepared to pay. Merchants all over the country bought sugar and advised their customers to buy it. The advice any individual got when he went into a merchant was: "You had better buy a bag of sugar, because it will probably be taxed and in any event it will be scarce." The present position has arisen because of failure to provide against a situation of that sort.

There is plenty of sugar in the country somewhere. There is no doubt about that from the amount of sugar that was produced here and the amount of sugar imported last year. Our normal output of sugar was 9,000 tons a month. That has been reduced to 6,000 tons a month. I understand that the sugar company thought the best way to meet the demand when it arose before the Budget and to show the country that there was no scarcity was to supply any orders that were placed for sugar. It was thought that in that way it would be indicated to the public that there was no shortage and no danger of a shortage of sugar, and that buying in anticipation of a shortage would eventually die out. Therefore, there was no restriction whatever imposed by the sugar company. But, strange to say, the public continued to buy sugar and large quantities of sugar were released by the company, with the result that we have had a restriction in regard to the output of sugar from 9,000 to 6,000 tons a month. We have been told that the sugar released at that time will have to be used before the normal output of sugar is restored. That output in fact will not be used up, because the private individual who bought a sack of sugar will put it aside against the rainy day and will buy in any sugar he can from week to week. Again, the people who are suffering are the poor people who cannot now get sugar. The person who was able to buy a sack of sugar, if he finds himself short any week, can call upon it. That indicates how the Government handled the whole question of the supply and distribution of essential foodstuffs for our people.

Take again the supply of fuel. I am satisfied that the petrol companies here made representations on their own to the British Petrol Pool, and that they sent one man across from this country to secure 20,000,000 gallons of petrol and 10,000,000 gallons of kerosene. I am informed, and it has not been denied——

It is difficult to define the scope of discussion on the Vote for the Taoiseach, or head of the Government. Obviously, a matter that was raised a year ago and twice within the last few months on a Minister's Estimate, or on questions, is not a matter to be re-discussed in detail on this Vote. Clearly, such details could not be replied to. If debate were to range over every Department of State, the position would become impossible. Discussion should be on general lines, on matters of wide interest, not on items already dealt with on other Votes.

The Taoiseach is responsible for the appointment of the Minister for Supplies. To my mind that is the most important Ministry in the Government at present.

The logical conclusion from that contention is that the Taoiseach being responsible for every Minister's appointment, every Minister's Estimate might be re-debated on the Taoiseach's Vote—an impossible position. The Deputy may, of course, illustrate his thesis by particular references, but not by numerous details of administration.

This is a vital problem for the country, and Deputies, having appealed to the responsible Minister, and their representations not having been acted upon, I submit that we may avail of this opportunity to put these urgent matters to the Taoiseach, who might perhaps give them his attention. Many Deputies are gravely concerned about the whole position. Every day the situation looks blacker, and I feel that it is our duty, when we get the opportunity of doing so, to put these matters directly to the Taoiseach, to see if he will improve the situation by giving them his personal attention. I do not propose to go in great detail into each question, but merely to illustrate the position.

In regard to this question of supplies, I know that people who, on their own initiative tried to secure supplies of various vital commodities, got no assistance, good, bad or indifferent from the Department responsible for supplies. To illustrate that, I point to our fuel position. That position obtained with regard to fuel, because the petrol companies, through their own representatives, secured for this country a supply of fuel, 20,000,000 gallons of petrol and 10,000,000 of kerosene, and when their representatives went over to meet the Minister of Mines who is responsible for fuel and the Minister of Shipping in England, they got no help or co-operation from the Department here. I think the Taoiseach ought to know that, because it was the responsibility of the Minister to give some assistance and co-operation. The same applies to harvesting machinery. What help or assistance has the Government given to the people, who normally import harvesting machinery, in a vital year like this and what is the position at the moment with regard to harvesters, to binders? What supplies have we and what are we likely to get? What help or co-operation, if any, did the Government give to the people who normally import this machinery? I know for a fact that none was given, but that the country is left to work out its own salvation as best it can. As a matter of fact, obstacles are being put in the way of these people because there is a duty on the importation of harvesting machinery, on parts, bolts and so on, which makes the problem even more difficult. Difficult and all as it is to secure a consignment of these vital commodities at present and to get them shipped, when they come to this side they are hung up for weeks at the port because the question of whether they are liable to customs duty arises, and it is practically impossible to get them released.

That sort of thing occurs at present, when we are facing a difficult situation, and when we want all the assistance and co-operation we can get. There appears to be no co-ordination whatever between the various Departments, and I am satisfied that when the Department of Agriculture makes representations to the Department of Supplies, they are very often told to go to hell. That is the position which obtained last spring in respect of the supply of tractor fuel, an essential raw material for the production of food, at a time when farmers were practically standing still, when tractors were immobilised for want of fuel during fine weather when they should have been working at full capacity, because of lack of co-operation between two important Departments. I am personally satisfied that the Department of Agriculture was correct in regard to this matter. They assured me that representations would be made to the Department of Supplies, but that Department gave them no hearing whatever. They simply did not worry about the position and, in fact, told them to go to the devil, that they were not in any particular hurry about it and that they would make up their minds when they liked.

On the matter of artificial manures for next year, time and time again the necessity for making some effort to get supplies from outside has been stressed here. Failing that, it has been urged that efforts should be made to see what our Clare deposits were worth, how far they could be worked and to what extent we could secure a supply from them. I do not know whether the Taoiseach appreciates the necessity of securing a supply of artificial manures for the intensive tillage districts where there is a lack of humus, vegetable matter, in the soil and where, if we are going to produce anything from it, we must have a good deal of assistance in the shape of artificial manures. Nothing, or very little, has been done about it. We are slowly making up our minds to set up a company which will eventually explore the possibilities of securing superphosphates from County Clare, but, in the meantime, we are within three months of next winter's sowing period.

I think the situation is disastrous. What about the nitrates? The British Government are offering to those farmers who are prepared to take it, deliveries of sulphate of ammonia early in July, at a price of £10 10s. per ton, while people here have been charged as much as 21 guineas and 22 guineas per ton. For superphosphate, the exfactory price on the other side is £5 per ton, while here it is £8 per ton. No representations that I am aware of have been made to the people on the other side in respect of our position as a supplier of essential food and no effort has been made to make use of that position as a bargaining weapon in securing some raw material for production here. Their money is very little use to us at present. What we really want is something in exchange for what we are giving them. What has been done about it? Has the Taoiseach thought it worth his while to make representations directly to the British Government about it? Has any Minister been sent across, or has any Minister thought it worth his while to go across, to make representations on these vital questions? I am not aware that that is so.

Then we have the fuel position, and we have a standstill order which prohibits the release of turf from the turf counties. If turf is wanted for the City of Dublin, an application for a licence may be made, and, so far, not half a dozen licences have been issued. That may be right, because I appreciate that there is a fuel problem and that you cannot eat into your oil supplies for the transport of turf. There is going to be a huge problem presented if we are to transport turf from the turf counties to the big centres of population, and, before that question can be determined, we must know what the position in regard to our coal supply is going to be. If there is any hope of any improvement in that position, it would be utterly stupid to transport large quantities of turf from the turf-producing counties to Dublin and to the big centres of population along the seaboard. The whole question is hung up at present by the transport problem, and, if turf has to be transported—this is a slack period just before the harvest when transport will be required for the shifting of grain, and, immediately after, there will be the beet campaign when a huge amount of transport will be required to shift beet into the factories—now is the time to ascertain what our position is likely to be in respect of coal supplies, and that, to my mind, ought to be determined before we can come to any decision as to what quantity of turf is to be released and transported from the turf-producing counties to the big centres of population along the seaboard.

These are the vital problems which face the country and, to my mind, they have not been tackled in a proper, businesslike way, and particularly by the Minister for Supplies. I personally feel, and many Deputies and many people outside also feel, that the Minister for Supplies has fallen down completely on his job. Not only has he made no effort to secure essential supplies, but he has made a complete mess of the distribution of whatever supplies were available, and I think it is a matter which deserves the immediate attention of the Taoiseach. The House and the country expects that, if the present Minister cannot effect an improvement, he ought to be changed, and a better man put in his place.

We have heard all that has been said to the Taoiseach and his Ministers about conditions in the country. I often ask myself is it possible that the Taoiseach, his Ministers, or members of the Fianna Fáil Party have not just as deep a horror with regard to the bad conditions existing as any other Deputy here. I believe they are as keenly interested regarding the conditions of the people as anybody else, but what is preventing them from dealing effectively with the existing situation?

Listening to Deputy Hughes speaking about coal supplies, I felt inclined to blame the Government for this, that they should have encouraged the importation of much more coal during the past 18 months. I know of one place where supplies to the extent of 10,000 tons have been accumulated for the people's use. Provision was made there by persons with foresight and imagination. The Taoiseach stated that he was afraid the people did not yet realise the peril in which the nation stands, both from the point of view of physical military attack and the point of view of hardship. The fact is that the people fully realise what they are facing. There may be certain small sections of the people who do not, but I believe the majority fully realise it. The people are somewhat alarmed at the complacency and indifference of the Government and the complete lack of a plan to deal with the situation, especially during the coming winter.

I think that of all the problems we are facing the most serious is connected with unemployment and poverty. If you have not the mass of the people contented and with some hope for the immediate future, all the guns and all the military preparations will be in vain. I believe everyone will admit that when we had our men out fighting the enemy, it was the loyalty and solidarity of the people in the towns and villages that helped to win our fight for freedom. Unless the Taoiseach and his Ministers tackle the problem of poverty and unemployment, your military displays and equipment will have very little effect. Military displays are empty trifles compared to the need for contentment, happiness and security among our people.

The essential thing at the moment is to have a happy and satisfied population. In our cottages and farmsteads we must have a contented people, people who are satisfied particularly as to the justice of our legislation. Unfortunately, there is a growing amount of despair abroad to-day and a feeling of disregard for our parliamentary institutions. Are the occupants of the Fianna Fáil back benches and the members of the Government aware of the thousands of people who have left this country within the last two or three weeks? I witnessed a scene at Cork on Monday evening, and I believe that at Limerick station there was a similar scene, when crowds of women and children gathered to send their men off to work in England. Day after day I have to deal with most distressing cases, and I am quite satisfied that the back benchers of the Fianna Fáil Party have to deal with similar cases. Men come to me looking for money to take them across the water. These men are prepared to make any sacrifice in order to keep their wives and children from starving here.

Just picture a man with a wife and eight children, the ages of the children running from one year and two months to 12 years. I know a man in that position who was looking for a permit to go to England to get enough to maintain his wife and family. I know of another case where a man with a wife and two children was getting only 18/- a week unemployment assistance, and out of that money he had to pay 4/9 for rent. He went up to Newry yesterday. He had to pawn his wife's shawl for 15/- in order to get as far as Dublin. These cases may appear commonplace, but they are typical of thousands of other cases. Unless we do something to relieve the poverty that exists, the feeling of despair will grow to such an extent that men may be tempted into acts of violence. There are men who are standing on the brink of destitution; they realise that at any moment they may fall into the abyss, and these men may easily be tempted to resort to violence. We should take to heart what happened in Germany and in other countries where men faced with destitution were prepared to follow any lead. That danger is in this country to-day, I believe.

I am very disappointed in the Taoiseach. For years I have looked upon him as the man who would do something practical to remove poverty and privation. I have listened to the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Minister for Supplies trying to defend the Emergency Powers (No. 83) Order. When we were criticising excess profits, the Minister for Supplies told us that we should realise that making big profits did not mean profiteering. I saw in the newspapers some time ago where the Minister for Finance said there were some firms in this country that made a 200 per cent. profit last year. In the Seanad he said that a private company was registered here four years ago with a nominal capital of £5,000 and issued capital of £5,000. He went on to say:

"Profits for six years were £75,000 after payment of directors' fees which were substantial but not exceptional and the profits standard was £13,500. The last balance sheet disclosed reserves of £45,000. If the nominal capital were increased and reserves capitalised and issued to the shareholders, a deduction of £45,000 at 6 per cent. could be claimed in a chargeable accounting period."

—(Parliamentary Debates, Seanad, Vol. 25, Column 1727.)

He admitted these people did very well. If those employers wanted to salve their consciences by giving an increase in wages to their workers they are debarred from doing so by Emergency Powers Order No. 83. I would like to know from the Taoiseach how he can stand over cases of that kind, in which employers have made excess profits, and in which they might desire to give some of them to their workers. They are debarred, as I have said, from doing so by the order I have mentioned.

Was not a decision of the House taken on an express motion relating to that order?

There was, but I feel that the only redress I have is to bring the matter to the notice of the Taoiseach. I am quite agreeable to abide by the ruling of the Chair on the matter. I also want to know from the Taoiseach how he stands over the fact that, while the amount of benefit an unemployed man receives to-day is the same as it was two years ago, he is not to get a penny of an increase to meet the present high cost of living. A single man who is getting 10/6 a week to feed and clothe himself for seven days of the week is not to get any increase under the scheme that is to apply to other unemployed sections of the community. How does the Taoiseach reconcile that kind of legislation with the provisions in the Constitution? How does he claim that he is complying with social justice in penalising some sections of the community?

With regard to the wages stand-still order, no one would object to it if it were applied universally, and if there were some regulation of prices. There is no evidence of a stand-still order in the case of the banks and the charges they are allowed to make when public bodies go to them for money to carry out necessary work for the nation. We are building 210 houses in Cork City. We have to pay 5¼ per cent. interest to the bank for the money we need to finance the scheme. Eighteen months ago the interest charge was 4 per cent. This charge of 5¼ per cent. on the loan, together with the purchase of the land, the development of the site and the cost of building the houses, brings the cost of each house to £519. That is apart from the cost of their upkeep, provision for the collection of rent, cost of repairs or provision for sinking fund. The rent the tenants will have to pay is 10/4 per week. That is largely due to the fact that we have to pay such a high rate of interest for the building loan. We have that situation on the one hand, and on the other we have a stand-still order which prevents the workers who are going into those houses from getting one penny increase in their wages.

I am quite satisfied that the Taoiseach and the members of his Party have as deep a horror of poverty as I or anybody else, but why are not the necessary steps taken to abolish that poverty? The means are there to do so. Poverty could be abolished, and yet we cannot face the problem. I often think of the men of Easter Week who went out and died so that there would be equal rights and opportunities for all the citizens. I want to say that all the displays and commemorations we have from time to time are absolutely futile and meaningless as long as we allow poverty and privation to prevail amongst large sections of our people. I could say a good deal to the Taoiseach and his Ministers about what they have not done in the past five or six years, but particularly during the last two years. In my opinion they are not tackling the serious problems that confront us at the moment. What preparations have they made to meet the acute fuel shortage that is likely to arise during the coming winter? Nothing could be more damaging to a nation than to have the great mass of the people living in a state of despair. No matter what we may say to the Taoiseach and his Government, nothing can, in my opinion, be done to put our social problems right until the Government are the masters in their own house.

Some time ago I went with a representative deputation to see the Minister for Industry and Commerce seeking a loan of £50,000 to carry out work of great importance in Cork harbour. Deputy Mulcahy, representing Deputy Cosgrave, one of the representatives for Cork City, was also a member of the deputation. The jetties and quay walls are in a bad condition, and it was thought that this would be a suitable time to have some necessary improvements carried out. As Deputies know, there has not been much shipping in Cork harbour during the last 12 months, and we thought, if we could get this loan, that the present would be a suitable time to carry out this work of national importance. After a three months' delay we had a reply from the Minister to say that he was unable to give us the loan of £50,000. Following that, the harbour authorities interviewed one of the banks. After a good deal of talk the bank said it could not give a loan of £50,000 unless it had Government security. I want to tell the Taoiseach that we can talk as much as we like here, but nothing is going to be done as long as we allow the economic life of the country and the welfare of the people to be dictated and dominated by the group of people who control the credit and currency of the country. As long as we allow that, it is simply a waste of time for us to be discussing any questions here. The control of credit and currency is at the root of all our problems. It does not matter what Government is in office, unless the control of credit and currency is in its hands, then we are going to continue to have poverty and privation as we know it to-day amongst our people.

That would entail legislation, and legislation may not be advocated on Estimates.

It only needs a guarantee from the Minister for Industry and Commerce to give Deputy Hickey what he wants in connection with the Port of Cork.

As regards the giving of a guarantee, I do not think the Minister for Industry and Commerce should be placed in a position inferior to that of a bank.

Several subjects have been discussed on this Estimate, some being of almost national importance. I want to refer in particular to the question of supplies. We on this side made a demand for a fixation of prices. An effort was made by the Government to meet us. More than a year ago we asked that the prices of most commodities should be fixed so that the public, generally, would get a fair crack of the whip, and would at least know where they stood. During recent months the Minister has made an attempt to fix the price of certain articles. What we complain about is that, while in most matters the Taoiseach and the Government have asked for a co-ordination of effort and have got it to a large extent, certainly in regard to national defence and other matters, when it comes to the fixing of prices, it is largely done by order, and generally without any consultation with the Opposition Parties in the House. Even then, it is not always easy to discover whether or not the price has been fixed for a certain article. At the moment there is grave anxiety amongst the people of the country in regard to the question of sugar. I asked the Minister to-day whether or not the prices of sugar had been fixed. If we were to draw any conclusion from statements which appeared in the Press during the last few days we would have understood that sugar prices had been fixed.

I was astounded to-day when the Minister said in answer to my question that the prices of sugar had not been fixed. I think other Deputies besides myself had concluded that the prices had been fixed. There was a reference in yesterday's debate to the fact that the prices were increased by 7d. per bag but the Minister has told us to-day that up to the present the prices have not been fixed. We have then the position that many households in the south of Ireland cannot get sugar. There has been a curtailing by the wholesalers of the supplies to retailers, and by the retailers of the supplies to the ordinary consumer. I asked the Minister to-day if he was aware that, to add to that misfortune, at least one large firm in Dublin was soliciting supplies from country retailers, and from wholesalers as far as I know, at prices extravagantly beyond the prevailing prices. The price offered in the circular which I have handed to the Minister for Supplies was £2 10s. per cwt. The retail price of sugar is something like £2 2s. per cwt., or £4 4s. per bag, so that a retailer down the country who got his bag of sugar could pass it on to this firm at an extra profit of 16/- or 17/-. What chance has the ordinary consumer in a country district of getting supplies if that practice is to be permitted?

There is one aspect of the fixing of prices to which I must allude. Whether the Taoiseach agrees with me or not, I know that he would wish us to direct his attention to matters which are acutely engaging the public mind. The particular matter to which I wish to direct his attention is the recent order fixing the price of cereals. I do not want to debate the matter, but merely to draw the Taoiseach's attention to a certain aspect of it. Some of us, acting on demands made by our constituents, put down a motion to give us an opportunity of discussing the fixing of the price of cereals, but it is probable that that motion will not be taken before the House adjourns, unless the Taoiseach agrees to give us special time for it, and the results of debating that motion after the adjournment will be nil. There is certainly grave dissatisfaction at the price fixed for cereals. I would ask the Taoiseach to go into the matter himself with the Department concerned, and perhaps he might seek the advice and co-operation of some Deputies on the opposite benches. I hesitate to make a grave statement in this House, but I feel it my duty to say that there is a great danger of a supply of cereals being kept on the farmers' hands if some action is not taken in regard to the matter of price. That information has come to me not from one but from several farmers, and, as far as I have had an opportunity of discussing it with other Deputies, the same relates to other constituencies. I assume that Deputies of the Government Party are also aware of the fact. Farmers have come to me and said that if they are going to get only a certain price for grain this season then they will stick to the grain and feed it to their stocks, because they say that they refuse to pay the exorbitant prices asked for inferior feeding mixtures when they have an opportunity of using their own. I think that would be a lamentable thing to happen in this hour of the country's need of food. I am not going to suggest that the increase in price should be a very big one; I do believe that a small increase in the price of cereals would suffice to obviate that grave danger which certainly exists.

The Deputy, having so far debated the motion which stands in his name, might be satisfied, as it is of doubtful relevance.

It is relevant in this way, that it is right to draw the attention of the Leader of the Government to a matter which agitates the public mind to such an extent, and which may have serious consequences on national defence, because the ensuring of a supply of food for the people is part of the national defence.

The Deputy has been allowed to do so.

I do not intend to refer to it any further. I do not think that anything would be gained by my prolonging the debate in discussing the various Departments. I do not expect that the Taoiseach should be asked to answer for all of them, and I would not have raised this matter were it not for the fact that I believe it is one of very vital importance not alone to agriculture but to all the people of this State.

The Taoiseach, as head of the Government, is charged with the responsibility of guiding this country through a very severe crisis. I referred in another debate to the fact that, on general principles, I approve of the attitude adopted by the Taoiseach towards external matters. In this debate, I think we are more concerned with the internal policy of the head of the Government and of the Government itself. As far as economic matters are concerned, I think it is generally agreed that the Government has fallen down badly during the past two years, and it is a matter of concern to every Deputy in this House to advise the Taoiseach as far as he can towards a solution of the problems which confront him. A number of years ago a Government's task was very simple. A Government was only supposed to maintain order and to look after national defence, while the various economic interests throughout the country attended to the country's economic affairs. Now, in the present complicated condition of economic and financial affairs, the Government is called upon to intervene in almost every aspect of the economic life of the people, and, unless the Departments of State are organised and prepared to tackle each and every economic problem which faces them, it is absolutely certain that they will fail.

I think that one of the difficulties at the present moment is that each of the main Departments of State was organised originally to deal with economic and industrial problems on very different lines from what they are at the present moment. For example, the Department of Agriculture was established mainly as an advisory department to the farmers. It never was supposed to have any executive or directive duties. To-day, the Department of Agriculture is called upon to direct the entire business of farming, and it is failing, and failing lamentably, in that task, because, apparently, the Department of Agriculture is not able to survey the whole industry of agriculture in the manner in which it should, but rather considers itself an advisory body which can sit on the fence, so to speak, and administer wise and prudent advice to the farmer from time to time, as to how he ought to manage his farm. Farmers, listening in on the radio from time to time, are given very useful advice in regard to the management of their farms. They are also given very useful advice by the agricultural instructors. Usually, however, the advice comes when it is too late. When, for example, we have an exceptionally heavy frost which has lasted for two or three days, farmers are advised that it would be a good thing to have their potatoes more securely covered, but usually, by that time, the potatoes are gone. That is the attitude which one great Department takes towards the problems which face it. My belief is that the Department of Agriculture and the Government should look upon themselves more or less in the same way as a farmer who owns and has under his control a farm and who has to support a family out of the resources of that farm looks upon himself. If the Government took this attitude I think they would plan the economic future of this country better, and I think they would be prepared to ride, to a great extent, roughshod over the rights of small vested interests, which may from time to time stand in the way of national interests.

I think that, to a great extent, agriculture has been sacrificed in the interests of people engaged in the import of various goods—for example, people engaged in the import of various feeding stuffs—and also agriculture has been sacrificed, to a considerable extent, in the interests of people engaged in export. The first duty of the Government should be to regard the Irish producer as the most important factor in the whole economic situation, and, for that reason, it should be the duty of the Government, no matter what steps are required to be taken, and no matter how drastic these steps are, to guarantee that a man who is engaged in producing essential goods will get an economic price for the goods he produces, and that not only will he get an economic price now, but that he will have something in the nature of a four or five years' plan for production: that is to say, that farmers engaged in tillage should be guaranteed economic prices for their tillage products for the normal rotation period of tillage crops, which is about four or five years. To go in for such a policy would entail very far-reaching control over the whole import trade of this country, and particularly the importation of grain, and in order to carry out such a policy it would be necessary for the Government to take into their hands very far-reaching control over finance and commerce. I believe that something of that nature will be absolutely necessary. Deputy Hickey referred to the fact that the Government was unable to provide a loan for certain development work, but that a bank would provide the money on the security of the Government. If the Government possesses the necessary security to provide money for useful development work, surely it should not hand over that security to a private firm, such as a bank, to make profit out of the Government security, but should use that security, and the financial power which it gives to the State, for the development of our own resources. I think that that is absolutely clear, or that it ought to be absolutely clear to the head of the Government. I think the people would ask for such far-reaching changes in our financial economy and in the economic life of the country.

Such change would require legislation, as was pointed out to Deputy Hickey, and, therefore, may not be advocated on the Estimates.

Yes, Sir. There is another matter, however, which, it strikes me, also requires a far-reaching change but which may not require legislation, and that is in regard to the organisation of Government Departments. In connection with the Estimate for the Department of Industry and Commerce I mentioned that the Departments of State appear at the moment to be getting more and more out of touch with the ordinary citizens of the State. If a matter requires to be dealt with down in a rural area or in a small country town, first of all, the people in that district make representations to the Government. They have got to write to the particular Government Department here in Dublin and, probably, they receive a reply in due course. Then it is possible that, if the matter is considered of sufficient importance by the Department, an inspector is sent down and, in due course, he makes his report and the matter receives further consideration. People never know exactly who is responsible for deciding the question and they feel that they are dealing with some blind and anonymous machine over which they have no control and which, apparently, has no particular or personal interest in the plain citizen or in any particular district.

My suggestion to the Taoiseach is that instead of having the various Departments working in separate compartments, as we have the Office of Public Works, the Department of Industry and Commerce, the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, the Department of Lands and Afforestation, the Department of Supplies and now, also, the Department of Turf Production—all different Departments dealing with the economic affairs of this country but all working separately and working to a very great extent without any co-ordination— there should be some kind of co-ordination between these various Departments. I suggest that, with a view to securing that co-ordination which is required between all these economic Departments, the Taoiseach should divide this country into, say, 200 administrative districts and place in control of each district a young, energetic superintendent or supervisor, or official of some kind—call him what you like— who would have absolute control over all administrative functions of the Government within that area—that is, functions of an economic nature, and excluding, of course, such matters as Justice, Education, Defence and Departments of that kind. All the economic or industrial Departments of the State should be grouped together in each area under one official.

Last year when the parishes throughout the country decided to establish parish councils, and when there was spontaneous movement for the establishment of such councils, the Taoiseach gave that movement his whole-hearted approval. It would almost seem as if he realised the ineffectiveness or inefficiency of the permanent civil service machinery under his control, and was hoping that the voluntary bodies set up by citizens in the various districts would achieve more than he and his Government were able to achieve through their administrative Departments. The parish councils have done a great deal for the country in this emergency. They have done a great deal to increase the production of food and fuel. Every Deputy is aware of the wonderful work being done by these bodies but their executive powers are very limited and their financial powers are even more limited. If, as I say, the country were divided into a number of small districts comprising, say, five or six parishes, each under an executive officer, that officer would be able to get the work done more effectively than it is being done at present.

We have complaints from every district that profiteering is not being attended to. Here again we have the position that you have to apply to some Government Department in Dublin, and the matter has to receive a considerable amount of complicated investigation. If you had one man in each district upon whom you could place the entire responsibility, you would get the work done far more effectively.

The same thing applies to the question of supplies. Suppose a farmer finds himself held up because he cannot obtain the necessary fuel for his tractor, he has to apply to a Government Department or ask a Deputy or somebody else to make representations on his behalf, and there is always considerable delay and loss of time. The most unsatisfactory feature of all is that no particular Government official is held or can be held responsible for any failure. You are dealing with a huge machine which, apparently, has no responsibility. As has been said of other bodies, a Government Department has no soul to be damned and no body to be kicked. At any rate, you could never fix the responsibility upon one particular individual. You could do that if you had one executive officer in charge of a small compact district which he could administer.

There is no doubt that we have not got, and we are not getting, the full amount of food and fuel which it is possible to get out of the resources of the country. In many counties the local bodies have done tremendous work in order to provide turf. They have done that work in many counties where there are very limited natural supplies. I know that parish councils have gone into very inferior bogs or bogs which were flooded and have also sought to procure turf from almost inaccessible mountains. They have come up against very big problems and, to a great extent, have surmounted those problems. But, in other counties, there are very large areas of bog which have not been developed to anything like the extent to which they could be developed. There you have had failure because, apparently, there has not been a sense of direction from headquarters and there has not been the necessary drive to secure the greatest results.

In regard to food production, we have the same position. The farmer ploughing his land does not know what price he will obtain for his produce. Why should it not be possible for the Government to fix an economic price for all essential tillage produce, not for one year but for two or three years, in advance, so that the people can face the future with confidence? I believe that the Taoiseach in many ways has been one of the most fortunate leaders the Irish people have had. He had the good fortune to be the national leader at a time when the freedom of this country was achieved. To-day it is his good fortune to be in control of the country at a time when economic problems can be faced and overcome on more far-reaching lines than would be possible in ordinary normal times. He has the advantage that circumstances drive him to take drastic action and, if that drastic action is carefully planned, he can eliminate a good deal of the dry rot which has existed in our economic system for the past 50 years. He can make this country a more extensively and intensively cultivated country and he can make that permanent. He can also overcome our position in regard to small vested financial interests through the exercise by the State of the financial powers which the State possesses. He can also make the position which we have at present attained of a certain amount of self-sufficiency in regard to our fuel supply a permanent feature of our national life and he can make turf production a permanent national industry. These are things which the emergency situation has placed within his power and the people expect that he will make the fullest possible use of his opportunity to make this country permanently more self-reliant and more dependent, both economically and financially.

I know there are many problems which are almost insurmountable. For example, I travelled to the city to-day with a young man, a farmer's son, who is leaving this country for Great Britain. That young man was a successful competitor at many ploughing championships; he is a man who was in the very responsible position of land steward on a farm; and he is a man very highly qualified in the most useful national work at present. Yet, he is leaving the country, and there is apparently no means by which his leaving the country can be prevented, short of the Government's taking the drastic action of prohibiting emigration, because, in this particular case, it is not exactly actual poverty which drives him to emigrate, but the fact that he is guaranteed a minimum wage of over £5 a week in Great Britain. That is a big problem and a very difficult problem for the Government, but it is certainly lamentable to see such a fine type of young Irishman and such an exceptionally useful type of citizen leaving this country for Great Britain. At the moment, I cannot think of any solution of that problem, but we can certainly prevent people leaving in large numbers. You may not be able to prevent men who see an opportunity of earning very big money from going across, but these men may earn that money and bring it back to this country. We cannot prevent such men from leaving, but, at any rate, we should be in a position to guarantee every citizen, and particularly every useful citizen, who is born and reared in this country, a decent livelihood within the country, and I think it can be done, as I said, by organising our national resources, by using our financial and economic powers and by using the special circumstances of the present emergency for the purpose.

This is the most important Vote which comes before the House during the year, because the position of the Taoiseach is most important. If his position is important in ordinary times, it is much more so in times of emergency like the present, because Ministers at present have all the powers of the Oireachtas. Each of them in his own Department can make laws with the same facility as that with which one would write out a will on a half-sheet of notepaper, and, when they can make laws affecting the liberty and economic lives of the citizens, it should be a big responsibility on the Taoiseach to see that these Ministers are fully qualified and he should give special attention to see that the work of each Department is carried out in the way in which he wishes it to be carried out.

There is no doubt that there are many complaints by the people—and I think that they are not all ill-founded— about the way some of these Departments are being administered. I know that there are often very many complaints which are unreasonable and for which there are no grounds, and I do not minimise the difficulty of running any Department of State at present. There are bound to be difficulties and shortcomings in respect of matters which it was very difficult to foresee, but there are a good many things which could have been foreseen and could have been provided against more efficiently than was the case. For instance, the Department of Supplies has not given satisfaction. Whether it has done the best possible—and I do not think it has—it certainly has not given satisfaction to the people. There might have been better provision in regard to supplies before we ran short and such supplies as we had might have been more equitably distributed. There certainly is mal-distribution of supplies, and, of course, the poor are the sufferers whenever there is a shortage of any commodity. People with more foresight than their neighbours and more money in their pockets generally fare better than others and the activities of these Departments should be carefully supervised by the Taoiseach. He is really responsible to the Dáil for the administration of these Departments, because he appoints these Ministers, and where things are not going so well as to give general satisfaction, he should look into them himself. He should see whether there is ground for the dissatisfaction; consult the Ministers concerned and induce them to change their methods, if, by doing so, there is any hope of improvement.

For an agricultural country like this, the Department of Agriculture is the most important Department of Government, and I think there is reason for the general dissatisfaction that prevails with regard to the way in which that Department is being administered in so far as its efforts to check and stamp out a disease which is costing the country so much are concerned. If we compare the success, or lack of success, of our Department in dealing with the outbreak—because this was only one outbreak of the disease which got in here about last winter, and which has spread from one place to another; the Department, of course, stamped it out in certain places, but where it made the big mistake was in allowing it to get into those places, because it should have been confined at the very outset and stamped out—with the success which attends the efforts of the Department in England, we find a very strange difference. The Department here had the example of neighbouring countries where outbreaks occur every month or every week, countries which are scarcely ever absolutely free from the disease for three months, but yet, the Department there can manage to surround it and stamp it out before it gets into the second district, and, if it happens to get into a second district, it will certainly not be allowed to get into a third district.

All that was debated on the Vote for Agriculture, and on a motion.

Yes, Sir, I know that it is entirely a matter for the Minister for Agriculture, but I am pointing out to the Taoiseach that as he is responsible for appointing the Ministers he has the right to supervise their activities, and advise them in cases where stronger measures might be taken.

I pointed out to the House before the Deputy entered that, while the Taoiseach is responsible for the appointment of every Minister, it does not follow that every Minister's Estimate may be re-debated on the Taoiseach's Vote; otherwise the debate might well last for another month.

I have no intention of going into the details of any Minister's Department; I shall merely refer to some of them in a general way, and call the Taoiseach's attention to them. I am mentioning one or two Departments and giving an instance where the Taoiseach might interest himself, advising or supervising in a way that, perhaps, would be useful to this country. Agriculture is one of our most important Departments and, even if we were to spend an extra hour here dealing with agriculture, I consider it would be worth while if anything good came out of it. Indeed, if the discussions were likely to be productive of good for the country, it would be well worth our while to spend weeks here.

Fully half the people of this country are engaged in agriculture and it is regrettable that their labours over the last 12 months are not likely to reap much reward because of the failure effectively to combat this dreadful disease. I did all I could to point out to the Minister the danger of the disease spreading. I had good reasons for believing that it would spread and, unfortunately, it turned out that I was right. If the Minister considers he has not sufficient powers to deal with the disease, the Taoiseach should advise him to take more effective measures in order to see that the disease is brought under control in certain districts.

The Minister for Agriculture has a very efficient Department, but it may be that there are some people not giving proper co-operation. He has the power to compel them to co-operate. The whole country should not suffer simply because a few individuals will not co-operate. It would be more lenient in the long run to deal firmly with such individuals at the outset and make them obey the law. If the laws in existence are not adequate to cope with the situation, the Taoiseach should see to it that any additional legislation that may be necessary is enacted here.

In times of emergency such as these, it might be well to learn something from other countries where, in difficult periods, they cut away from Departmental traditions and, instead of appointing individuals because of their political qualifications, they appointed men purely on their business merits. In other countries, where there was inefficiency in times of difficulty, they cut away the red tape that was strangling business. It might be a good thing if the Taoiseach would follow the example of such countries—that is, if he considers doing so would be serviceable to this State. I do not believe in copying any country unless doing so is likely to be useful to ourselves. Before we follow the example of other countries it might be well to ask ourselves if it would suit this country. If it is likely to be suitable, then we should not be too proud to learn from our neighbours.

Our first consideration should be to meet, as best we can, the conditions that exist in this country. One instance in which we seem to be following other countries in the wrong direction is in regard to summer-time. That is one example of a wrong outlook. Summer-time was primarily designed for the convenience and the better working of industries in another country under war conditions. At that time this country had no alternative but to follow suit. There was another régime here at the time and we had to keep in line with Great Britain and Northern Ireland. There might have been something to be said for it at the time because it was convenient from the angle of railway and shipping services. But the time came when they extended the summer-time to the whole year, when they decided to have a double dose of summer-time. It was not convenient for us to adopt that idea. We failed in the pace and the result is that we are not anchored anywhere.

We are not in line with Great Britain or Northern Ireland and our time is not fixed on the natural basis; it is not governed by the movements of heavenly bodies. We are just in suspense—like Mahomet's coffin, between earth and heaven. This is an agricultural country and anybody engaged in agriculture does not want any time but the natural time. That is the time that rules the working hours in rural districts and it is a mistake for this country to follow other countries where four-fifths of the workers are engaged in industrial pursuits. We followed them a bit of the way, then we failed in the pace and now we find we must get anchored somewhere. I suggest the Taoiseach should advise the responsible Department to get back to Irish time. The natural time is what really suits this country. It is better than any artificial time that can be imposed. I do not suppose anyone in this country would have the cheek to say that we should change our time by putting the clock one hour and 25 minutes beyond the natural time. When the people we were imitating in regard to time went too fast for us, we stopped, and now we are left without any reasonable time at all. There is no common sense in the time we now have and I think the Taoiseach should accept my suggestion.

That is one example of where we were wrong in following the outlook of the people who at one time controlled this country. Their outlook is not that of the people of an agricultural country; their outlook is the outlook of an industrialised country and this country has a long way to travel before its industrial is at all equal to its agricultural output. I do not think that, even from the point of view of these industries, there is going to be any disadvantage by going back to natural time. Instead, I think it would be of great advantage to them. I do not want to go into any detail, or to refer to all the inconvenience that summer time causes to everybody.

That matter was discussed in the House on a motion some time ago.

I just want to give it as one instance in which the Taoiseach might do something to give direction to Departments so that their regulations would be more in keeping with the needs of the country. After all, our economic needs are of importance even in times of emergency or at any time. The Taoiseach has great power and responsibility in appointing Ministers, and I want to direct his attention to these matters. Ministers at the present time have great power. They can make laws overnight or almost at any hour of the day. Therefore, I suggest to the Taoiseach that he should pay more attention to them and supervise them closely, and see that they are tightened up. He should see to it that any regulations they make will suit the country. This is an agricultural country and its outlook should be agricultural. Whatever tends to make agriculture more profitable is best suited for the country, and in the long run is going to be best suited for every industry in the country.

I agree with Deputy Hickey when he drew the conclusion, from certain things, that there was a growing disregard for this institution. I would like to address myself to that aspect of things because it is a fact. Circumstances in the country are difficult enough for everybody to try to carry on their work as well as for Deputies who try to keep in touch with the various problems in their constituencies, and to make use of their positions here: who try to get their position understood and remedies applied. One of the things that is helping to bring this institution into a state of disregard amongst the people is the fact that the Ministerial attitude tends to make it more difficult for Deputies to do their duty here. When awkward and difficult questions are raised about matters on which Ministers are not clear—on which they have no policy—everything that it is possible for Ministers to do is done to make it difficult for Deputies to discuss them. Take Deputy Alfred Byrne, who is close down to various problems in the City of Dublin. He has recently been reduced to such a state in this House that he is not able to open his mouth, and, when he does open his mouth at question time, you have three or four Ministers jumping on him.

In the beginning of this year I drew attention to the extraordinary rise in the price of coal in the city, and indicated that it did not appear to be warranted by the import price of coal. I raised the matter here quite openly, quite systematically by means of question, and by intervention in debate. The attitude of the Minister for Supplies was that I could go and put on the red hat of revolution and raise a disturbance amongst the people: that he knew that I was attempting to raise a disturbance amongst the people against the Government. Notwithstanding that, the price of coal was reduced by something like 5/8 a week or two afterwards. The Minister could not stand up to my plain and perfectly warranted demand that a committee of inquiry should be set up to inquire into the discrepancy as between the prices that were being charged to the people in the city for coal and the import price. We were told that if we wanted to examine into that we could go to Hong-Kong or Timbuctoo. That was from the Minister for Supplies.

Then we had the attitude of the Minister for Industry and Commerce on the Trade Union Bill. It was only typical of the kind of attitude that he can put up when things are awkwardly raised here. On the Second Reading of the Bill I raised this question: why, when we consider the position in the labour world and in the economic world how essential it is to gather people together and have understanding and co-operation: why, when there is a commission on which you have Labour leaders sitting and before which they have given a considerable amount of evidence, we could not wait to get the labour side of our industrial organisation in an orderly way and until we had some kind of information from that particular commission before going ahead with that Bill. The outcome of all that was the attitude the Minister adopted on that Bill. We had the unfortunate position that assistance of the Labour Party in the House—we might have expected to look to it for assistance and guidance in the discussions on the Bill—was, owing to the attitude of the Minister, practically withdrawn. We are now facing the situation in which the Bill is about to pass from the Dáil. No amendment was made to it by the Labour Party.

I questioned the Taoiseach the other day with regard to an apparent understanding of our position with the United States. The Taoiseach's idea then was to jump on me and say that that was not a question that ought to be raised here but at the Defence Conference. I do not think that a conference of any kind, or private interchanges between people—I admit that such are necessary—are going to be a substitute for this House. If we are not going to be able to talk to one another across this House, to exchange what is really in our minds without getting our presentation of the facts, or the facts themselves, distorted by aggressiveness or by bad parliamentary manners, then nothing outside—no conference and no action—is going to save us. The Taoiseach the other night indicated that in his opinion—speaking at column 1131 of the Dáil Debates—"We were going to face a prolonged and difficult situation that will become increasingly difficult from day to day." The situation is difficult enough as it is, but if it is going to become increasingly difficult from day to day then it certainly behoves everybody here to make this assembly a place where we can speak our minds, and I do not think that there is anything on which we can speak our minds here that we need be afraid of getting heard of elsewhere. If we are going to have diplomacy in this country then the more open our diplomacy is the better.

I do not think we can face our difficulties here with any confidence in one another, or with any confidence in the plans of the Government when such a thing as happened the other day could happen, that is when the President of the United States indicated that "armament aid for Ireland must follow an assurance that the Irish would defend themselves against German attack; no such assurance has been received," when a statement like that could be made and could be published in our Press, and objection could be taken to the fact that somebody in this House asked why no public statement had been made in reply to it. I am not afraid of telling the United States what our position is with regard to the belligerents on any side in this war, and I do not think our Ministry ought to be prevented from doing so by any feeling that they cannot say exactly what the position is. I do not understand what objection there can be to giving a reply to that, or asking a question about it here. However, I do not want to canvass that now. But I do want to canvass this position, that we are facing a serious situation, that this institution is necessary if that situation is going to be faced, and that this institution cannot be preserved except we can learn to talk to one another here. If we are to be told that it is undesirable to discuss certain things, we can all understand that, but I do suggest that there is no use in throwing the Defence Conference across any of our discussions here, because I think we ought all to understand what the Defence Conference is.

From the time that we went on our own initiative direct to the Taoiseach in September, 1939, to make certain representations with regard to the economic position here and the mobilisation of the Army, a long period, up to the end of May, passed without any communication, any exchange of confidence or exchange of facts, passing between the Government and any of the Opposition leaders. The Taoiseach sent to us at that particular time and put certain facts with regard to the situation before us. He wanted to increase the Army. Then there was a suggestion from Deputy Cosgrave and from others of my colleagues that a defence conference should be set up, something approaching the kind that was set up. I did not agree that, from my impression of the mind of the Government gathered from the Taoiseach in our discussions at the end of May, the members of the Government were in a frame of mind to accept, with any useful results, collaboration of that particular kind, but I did accept the opinion of Deputy Cosgrave and my colleagues that it was essential and that it would be useful. The Defence Conference was set up, and it has been useful in this, that it has enabled the people in every part of the country and in every arm of service that has been set up as a matter of gathering our defensive strength, to come together. That alone has made the Defence Conference worth while. It was effective in persuading the Government that you could have a Local Defence Force and that a Local Defence Force would be necessary as well as a Local Security Force. It was effective in persuading the Government that the Local Defence Force should, even at a certain amount of inconvenience and some heavy work on the part of Army officers, be taken under Army command. Those are achievements to its credit, but in so far as the policy of the Government or the machinery which controls the Army or directs Army policy or anything else like that is concerned, it has done nothing and is doing nothing.

The Defence Conference is not worth the sacrificing of the freedom of expression of opinion here. I do not know why the question should arise, because if the Defence Conference has proved anything, it has proved that useful discussions can take place, that co-operation of a limited kind can take place, which, reacting on the country as a whole, can give the country confidence and strength, and can help the country to organise itself and to do the humdrum work which must be done if our defensive machinery is going to be built up. Just as the defence tasks of yesterday, of organisation and other matters, had to be faced by a unified people, the organisational work of to-morrow or any other work of a defensive kind must be faced by a unified people, and the Defence Conference is worth holding there for that. I do not say that we have all the information that we would like on the Defence Conference, or that we are able to do all the things that we would like to do. We are not asking to do it, simply because there are certain lines of thought which the Government is not prepared to accept.

I go completely back of my original impression that the Defence Conference was a conference that ought not to be set up, because I feel that by coming together we have overborne certain difficulties and certain, as it were, withholdings of confidence and help which might otherwise have remained. The position is, however, that we want all the strength of this country to pull us through. I entirely subscribe to what Deputy Hickey has said, that it was the unified strength of our people as a whole operating behind the Volunteers that gave any strength to the Volunteers, or that brought any success to their work.

If there is going to be any strength in our Defence Force to-day, either as a threat against an enemy or as an effective weapon against an enemy, it must have a strong unified people behind it. If a situation continues in which Parliament is further reduced below the level at which its prestige is to-day by the attitude of the Government to Parliament, if we are in the position that the prestige of our Parliament here is to be reduced, with economic troubles developing outside, then arms are not going to stay in the hands of your soldiers, because no one realises better than the soldier does how silly it is to hold arms in his hand, and to march and countermarch, except he knows what he is doing it for, except he knows that in shouldering his arms, in marching and countermarching, he is a symbol of the dignity of the country. If we are going to be a country without a plan, a country without resources, a country without decorum in the way in which it carries on its political business, you are not even going to hold your Army together. It is essential that you would hold your Army together, but it is infinitely more essential that you should keep your people with a sense that their country is a dignified country whose representatives understand their responsibilities, who know how to associate and work with one another in carrying out their duties and responsibilities, and who are using their country's institutions to carry on the work of the country.

When the Budget and the Estimates were presented to us at the beginning of the year, we pointed out that if we were to take these Estimates at their face value it meant that the Government did not understand what the position was, and that if they did understand what the position of the country was they should have included a greater amount of money for employment schemes and for relief schemes. Although we have gone through the full Budgetary period, and although we have asked the Government in plenty of time to review the whole situation which we will have to face, and although we have had the financial basis of our Budget completely remodelled, it is only to-day that we get new Estimates which involve the expenditure—when we take out money provided for already—of another £940,000. So that, just before the Dáil rises for the Recess, after all the discussion we have had during the last couple of months, the Government show that there was something in what we said, that they did not realise what the situation is, and here we are presented with another bill for about £940,000, and the Government are forced to admit that expenditure of this kind on emergency relief schemes is likely to be necessary.

I wonder if we would have had the exodus of men, of the kind that Deputy Cogan spoke about and that members of the Labour Party and others spoke about, that we had in the last few months, if the situation had been properly faced in March or April last. If there had been a clear statement of the amount of money to be made available and of the lines upon which it would be made available, and if it had been shown that there were plans for dealing with the situation, I wonder if we would have had that exodus, because it is a fact that there has been a very considerable exodus from the country, that it is still going on, and that it is quite true, as one Deputy remarked, that there was a big exodus from Cork on Monday night last. That, however, is only symptomatic of what is going on all over the country, but it gives us a reflex of the attitude of the Minister for Industry and Commerce who assured us, in his speech on his own Vote the other night, that when we go back to September, 1939, and take the period from then up to March of this year, not only was it not true that a number of people had left this country but that, in fact, 45,000 more people came into this country than went out of it. Another facet of the Minister's appreciation of the situation is that he couples that with the statement that there are 3,000 less people unemployed at the moment than there were at this time last year. That is not so much putting a kind of smoke-screen around themselves as trying to mislead the people in this House and to keep them misled.

There is a situation that exists and that must be faced up to, and it cannot be done by piecemeal measures or by the withholding of any confidence on the part of the Government or on the part of the people in the Government. It is important that, when it is seen that things are wanted, Estimates such as these Estimates should be brought forward, but we cannot understand why they should be brought forward in a piecemeal way. We cannot understand the delay in realising what the facts are and then following them up. There were many things that the Government were persuaded were absolutely necessary, and they took months and months to come along. At the time of the Budget, in the early part of the year, it was admitted by the Ministry that it was proper to increase the amount of moneys or the amount of relief that was given to persons on unemployment assistance. That was at the beginning of April last. This is now running well into July, and that assistance, although it was decided on and passed, has not been given yet. There are other things that have been on the long finger of consideration for a long time, and one wonders what on earth kind of machinery these decisions have to travel through before they actually begin working on them.

The criticism has been made that every Department of the Government, practically, has broken down. I think that everybody in the country realises that. If you take even the present turf scheme, I think that scheme points to the disintegration of the various Departments even more markedly than anything else. The Department of Industry and Commerce is a Department through which was spent £500,000 or more on turf development. That was the connection of that Department. The Ministry of Supplies was set up to deal with supplies, and then when it comes to a question of fuel and where the fuel is to be got, correctly enough they go to a machinery which can give them fuel, if it is to be given by any machinery: in other words, they go to the county engineers. The county engineers, however, are controlled by the Department of Local Government and Public Health, and neither the Department of Local Government nor the Department of Industry and Commerce nor the Department of Supplies deal with the situation at all. A particular officer, in the person of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance, has to be put in charge of the scheme. To my mind, there is a breakdown implied there, through the Department of Industry and Commerce and its connection with turf, through the Department of Supplies and its connection with the provision of stuffs—and I suppose we can understand what they broke down on—and then you have the Department of Local Government washing their hands of all of them. It is the Local Government machinery that is being used, but even there we come up against the fact that the Parliamentary Secretary accepts responsibility for producing as much turf as can be produced, but when we come to the question of distribution we are still left in the air, and while the Parliamentary Secretary is waiting to make up his mind in regard to what is going to happen in the matter of distribution he tells us that it is an inversion to talk about the wants of our cities and to ask to have them met. He tells us that that is an inversion of the position: that the position is that turf is to be produced.

There is no place that you can turn to but you find a break-down of the machinery. We cannot afford to have our machinery broken down to-day. A break-down of machinery that the people are in touch with means a complete lack of confidence on the part of the ordinary people. A break-down of machinery means that in difficult circumstances the tackling of the job is going to be left to somebody with a bright idea on top, such as the Taoiseach or some Minister whom he asks to take on the job. No boys with bright ideas can solve anything to-day except they have the machinery in their hands, except they have confidence in that machinery, except they can give a lead, and except the people who are to do all the work can have confidence in the machinery. The last indication of the complete break-down of the Ministry, and its outlook on the whole situation, is the suggestion that the local government elections are going to be postponed. I know that that will be discussed on the Bill itself, but it fits in with the picture that I have of the situation.

Through an Emergency Order of some kind or another, some months ago, a number of persons were appointed as divisional commissioners to take over the charge of various parts of the country when such a time might arrive that Government administration was not able to reach all these parts of the country.

It is in these circumstances, of having this legislation setting up county managers and providing us, in the various counties, with a complete machinery of management, where you have the triumvirate of the county manager, the county engineer, and the county medical officer of health, that the local elections are being postponed. Having passed that legislation and having county councils seven years old— the numbers of which and the connection between which and the county manager have had to be changed—it is in circumstances like that, that county councils elected seven years ago, although their normal term was three years, and in circumstances which the Government imagines may possibly arise where these counties will be so cut off that they will have to have divisional commissioners to take charge, that they now decide that they are not going to have elections for county councillors, elections that would normally have taken place in 1937 except that we had a general election, in 1938 except that we had another, and in 1940 except that we were in the thick of the emergency, with the fall of France and all that kind of thing around us. Now, this year, in the new situation, with the new legislation, and in circumstances in which the Taoiseach says that the position may be prolonged and become increasingly difficult from day to day, we are not to have proper, representative, up-to-date county councils put in charge of the various bodies set up to reflect the modern position, to deal with the modern problems and to handle the modern machinery to be put into operation.

In September, 1940, when a general election came round in Sweden, which is surrounded by greater military difficulties and in closer touch with them than we are, surrounded even by greater dangers, the Swedes did not hesitate to go through their elections. Here we are, apparently, to allow seven-year-old local bodies, with or without the new machinery, to remain in office for goodness knows how long. How long the actual war emergency will last is one thing; how long the emergency after that will last is another. Here we are in a position where the post-war situation is likely to be even more difficult than the war situation, because we will be faced with the demobilisation of 40,000 or 50,000 men and the problem of finding employment for them. We are to sit down and manage the country's business from here with the type of management, the type of discussion, the type of exchange of information, which we are getting more and more accustomed to, where nobody can bring his whole-hearted mind and his unflurried outlook to bear on the discussion of anything because of the way in which Parties are treated here. If democracy does not use its instruments, it will not last. If we do not become more awake to the responsibilities that lie on our people as a whole, and if we do not give them a chance of feeding this House with ideas and information, and with a chance of discharging their duties locally as democrats, then we will not have democracy here; we will have a mob. If there was any time in our history, so long as we have been in touch with our history, during which our people ought to be stimulated to act as democrats and use democratic machinery, it is to-day.

My appeal here is for the Taoiseach to examine what the position has been in this House, to examine the attitude of Ministers to this House, to examine what is implied in the suggestion that we are to go through a period of goodness knows how many years with local representative bodies which have been in office for seven years, in a country where, as Deputies have indicated, you have parish councils springing up in all parts of the country as an earnest that there is work to be done and that there are people willing to do it in a responsible way, and fading out, as they are in many parts, because they cannot link up with any kind of official machinery. We have the county committees of agriculture jeered at as not likely to be of any use in connection with the tillage campaign.

By whom?

I could refer the Deputy to some remarks made here, but I think that most of the disparaging remarks came from his side of the House.

By whom?

I am stating what is a fact, that when I harped back to a proposition which I had originally made, that the county committees of agriculture should be used to sponsor and supervise the tillage movement, to make it more in keeping with what is being done in England, and which was not accepted, I was laughed at as a person who could not be expected to know very much about the county committees of agriculture.

Who made the disparaging remarks?

If the Deputy wishes, I will dig them up for him sometime.

I was present during the debate and I should like to hear who made the disparaging remarks.

Very good. I hope the Deputy catches my present point, which is, that if our people are to be helped to shoulder their own responsibilities and do their work, as well as having this institution here, an institution in which work can be done and in which people can talk and argue and decide matters along the best lines, we want, not county councils who were elected seven years ago and who do not know when they are to go out of office, but county councils elected now who, through their county committees of agriculture or in any other way, will be prepared to deal with the present emergency in relation to our present position. That is what we want. If we do not approach the present situation by seeing that the democratic machinery which we have, and for which we are responsible, is kept in right condition, then we will not have people sustained by a feeling of democratic responsibility, but we will simply have a mob. We will be left in the position that we will have our affairs dictated by the momentary whim of some one man or another. That will not get us out of the position in which we find ourselves. That is not following in the tradition that Deputy Hickey spoke about, the tradition of organisation that put us here in an Irish Parliament.

Mr. Brennan

In ordinary circumstances the consideration of the Vote for the Taoiseach's Department would be a matter for quiet review, if I might put it that way. But in present circumstances it is a different matter altogether. We cannot divorce the Taoiseach from responsibility for what we consider the failure of his Ministers to do their job. We are confronted with a very serious situation. It is not a situation that arose yesterday or the day before. We are entitled to look back to see in what way provision has been made for that situation, and we are entitled to look forward to see what is being done to meet the situation which probably will arise in the future. Doing either or both of those things, I am afraid that we cannot have very much confidence in the future of this country. If there is one thing more than another which is necessary in an emergency, it is confidence in the people in charge of the country's affairs. Every effort should be made to gain solidarity in the country, and I think everybody ought to try to be helpful, because if anything happens this country, if, as a result of this war, as a result of economic chaos after the war, some extraordinary happening takes place, we shall all regret it, and we shall all suffer in common; but I feel that the responsibility of the Taoiseach for what I consider has been the mishandling of the situation is very great. I think it is much greater even than what might, under ordinary circumstances, be the responsibility of a Taoiseach in the same position, because the present Taoiseach has rather intoxicated himself for some years past with the idea that this country, if it only adopted his ideas, would be able to support not alone 3,000,000 or 4,000,000 in comfort, but the 8,000,000 which it supported at one time.

We were presented then by the Taoiseach and his Party with a type of policy, which the Taoiseach, I am sure, very honestly thought was a policy of self-sufficiency which would ensure that this country would be well off, and that policy was so paraded before the eyes of the people and, I think, so strongly advocated by the Taoiseach himself that he must have blinded himself and everybody else into a certain feeling of complacent security. There is no other excuse that could be offered for the unpreparedness of this country when the crisis came upon it, except that there were people in the country, and particularly the Government, who thought they had in operation a self-sufficiency policy capable of saving the country from any disaster. We had also that type of mind, very unfortunately, which believed that tillage of itself was going to save the country, and that the export trade of the country apparently did not matter, that we could live on ourselves, that we could live, as the Taoiseach said when on these benches, comfortably and well if a wall were built around the shores of the country, and there was neither exit nor ingress. I remember one of the Ministers of that time saying, by way of reply: "Yes, of course, we could live. Robinson Crusoe lived in worse circumstances," but we do not want to go back to that, and it is now questionable whether we can live under our present circumstances. In my opinion, because of this belief, we made very little effort to import into this country before the war started the things necessary to keep any industries we had going and, above all, we neglected to provide for the requirements of tillage, of the tillage necessary to carry on the country.

I remember putting a Parliamentary question to the Minister for Industry and Commerce several months after the war had started as to whether it was a fact that a quota order was in operation in respect of the importation of artificial manures. I got the reply that it was. I asked why, and the answer I got was that it did not make any difference whether it was in operation or not because there was none to be had. You could scarcely credit an answer like that coming at that stage from a responsible Minister, but I think again that that Minister, together with the other Minister, and many other people, including the Taoiseach, were lulled into a sense of security because they had, on paper at least, a self-sufficiency policy in operation. I could not believe my eyes when I read in the paper, before putting that question, that there was in operation an order of that nature. On inquiry, I found out that in this part of the country, in Éire, we were paying something in the vicinity of £1 per ton more for artificial manures than they were paying on the other side of the Border. That is the way in which we were got ready for extra tillage. That is the preparation we made to grow more wheat, to grow more potatoes, and to grow the crops necessary to maintain us. It was a very bad beginning.

In addition to that, we had complaints being made and questions being asked—and most unsatisfactory answers given to Deputy Hughes and other Deputies—with regard to agricultural machinery, tractor parts, and the requirements of tractors. Those were the essential things. Above all, we should have ensured, so far as we could do so, that if we were to be thrown back upon our own resources, the country would have been packed with artificial manures if we could have got them. Notwithstanding that, the situation was that we had a quota order keeping them out until long after the war had started, and then we could not get them. I have heard people in this House talk about tillage as if the land of this country did not require manure. A tillage policy is not at all a very simple policy, and farming is not at all the simple matter that some people probably think it is. When you plough up land, you must manure it, and, if you have not got live stock, you cannot have farmyard manure. In any case, you cannot have enough live stock to give you sufficient farmyard manure for all the tillage you require.

That should have been the first consideration of the Government, but it was not. It was completely neglected. We had questions afterwards from this side with regard to manures which were ordered from abroad, and which were available, but the Minister refused to pay a subsidy and they would not be brought in because they could not be sold in competition with others. I do not know what steps are being taken at the moment to try to remedy that situation. We have had a great outcry from various people requesting us to make an effort to provide employment and we have had suggestions of various kinds with regard to industries and the activities that ought to be pursued in order to provide that employment. I understand there are in some parts of the country the raw materials for the manufacture of artificial manure. If they are there, even though they may be pretty low in the percentage of phosphates or whatever other ingredients they contain, there ought to be an effort made, even now, to try to get them. What I fear more than anything else is not so much how we are going to get through this crisis as how we are going to fare immediately afterwards. After this crisis, let it be long or short, if we come out with the land of the country very badly impoverished, we will be a very poor people indeed.

There are people in my own neighbourhood at Roscommon town who have done a very praiseworthy thing. They have gone out with tractors and taken land from people who possibly had not the necessary finance to do their own tillage. I know one man who has tilled some 50 or 80 acres, although he never tilled any land before. That sort of thing has happened in various places all over County Roscommon. That man is going to take a crop off the land this year and another crop next year. God help the man who owns the land when this man has finished with it. That is the situation that is confronting the country. The Taoiseach should have foreseen that and provision should have been made for it. Somebody should have foreseen it.

I often wonder whether the relationship between the Taoiseach and the Executive Council is really the normal relationship that ought to exist between every Prime Minister and his Executive Council. I rather think sometimes that if Ministers had real responsibility they would try to carry it. At the moment I feel they are not trying to carry it. I feel inclined to think sometimes that the Taoiseach is carrying all the responsibility, that he is not dividing it and, as a result, we are not getting things done. If I could feel that the Government were doing their job well, I, at least, would not have many fears in this crisis. What I fear more than anything else is that the people will lose confidence in the Government, that they will lose confidence in the people who are attempting to run this country.

We had it, in all the cases cited here to-day with regard to petrol, tea and other commodities, where the people felt let down, where the people felt that at the top there was not an understanding or a proper control of the situation. If you have that feeling, and any kind of real emergency arises, you will never control the people. There is only one way of keeping the people of the country right, and that is by having a controlling grip on everything and not giving the people a chance to complain. There may be various ways of doing that, but as long as we are the advocates of democracy there is only one way of doing it, and that is through a Government responsible to the people. It is their job to do it. If the Ministers are not personally responsible for their Departments, and if the Taoiseach is withholding from them some of the authority which they ought to have—and it sometimes strikes me that that is true, because I feel they are not properly accepting their responsibility—then that ought to be changed. If we are going to get through this crisis, if we are going to find ourselves in any kind of a sound position at the end of the emergency period, no matter whether we get into the war or keep out of it, a better grip will have to be obtained upon things in this country.

It is very sad to see the numbers of people who have to fly this country in search of employment. It is a sad commentary on the Fianna Fáil policy. Before that policy was put into operation the Taoiseach said, from this side of the House, that it was a very easy matter to remedy. There is an old saying to the effect that inexperienced folk think all things easy. That is perfectly true. While I admit he is a good horse that never stumbles, at the same time, if a horse stumbles at a crisis, if he stumbles coming to the winning post, he is finished. It is up to the Taoiseach now. Stumbling will not do now. He has to do some clear thinking. If he felt at one time, and stumbled on it, that this country with a policy of self-sufficiency could live within the walls built around it, and if he felt that he could cure unemployment in a very short time, and stumbled on that, too, let him come back, but I must emphasise that unless there is a complete mending of the hands of the Government, we will not get through the crisis.

We must have suitable provision made for tillage, if we are to have tillage, and we must realise that we cannot run the land out in this country. These are fundamental things and they ought to be remembered. The plant food in the soil of this country is not inexhaustible by any means. To my mind the Taoiseach has much more responsibility for his Government than any other man who has occupied his position in this country because he has controlled his Ministers in such a way that he has relieved them, to a certain extent at least, of certain responsibilities and that is a thing he ought not to have done.

Deputy Mulcahy attacked the Government on two grounds. He said that the machinery has broken down and he gave, as an instance of that, the position with regard to turf. What does the Deputy want? If there is unwieldy machinery in the Department, Deputy Mulcahy helped a good deal to put it there. I am not saying that there is not unwieldy machinery; in my opinion there is. But here was a job that had to be done quickly. Fuel had to be got for the people in the winter months. Were we going to have local authorities arguing with the Department of Lands about the possession of a bog? Were we going to have all the red tape with which the Land Commission is tied up hindering us in our efforts to get fuel for the people? Were we going to allow that or simply have one man in charge of the job who, while he might have, was faults, as human beings have, was still the best man to get the job done? He has got it anyhow. I say that much for him. Then we had Deputy Mulcahy finding fault because the local elections are not being held this year. The Deputy spent a certain amount of time telling us about the Defence Conference, the good that it had done: that it had united the people of the country and brought all together. What is wrong with Deputy Mulcahy is that he does not like to see the people united too long; he wants to see them cutting one another's throats at the local elections. That was his contribution to unity and that is the kind of unity he wants.

What would they be cutting their throats about?

The Deputy knows all the nice things that are said about people at local elections. He knows the kind of friendship there is between people and parties and factions in every parish after an election. He ought to know all that. Goodness knows we have enough to remember in connection with what happened at elections during the last 20 years.

There should not be any feelings of that kind.

We are all lambs! I often heard Deputy Hickey at it.

You never did in your life.

I can guarantee the feelings that would be created at a public meeting in Cork in connection with local elections.

I never indulged in any such thing.

I am not saying that the Deputy ever indulged in anything that he need be ashamed of.

I would remind the Deputy that there is a Local Elections (Amendment) Bill in progress.

Deputy Mulcahy spent three-quarters of an hour accusing the Taoiseach of various things, one being that the local elections were not being held. Suppose the local elections were held this year, you would have 95 per cent. of the people who are on local boards to-day coming back again. This plea to have the local elections held is only a "racket" to start ill-feeling through the country.

Is that your Minister's view?

I do not know what the Minister's view is, but that is my view —that 95 per cent. of those on local boards to-day would come back again if elections were held.

Question!

There would be very little, if any, change. That is my view. We had Deputy Brennan talking about the mishandling of the situation and the policy of self-sufficiency, about our unpreparedness and so on. The Deputy was present in the House and heard the protests that were made by his leaders against wheat being bought and stored here against the war.

That is not a fact.

It is a fact.

Give the date.

Deputy McGilligan now comes in, the House having been held for him by five speakers during the last three hours. He has arrived with 35 Bibles under his arm. I did not bring even one Bible.

Will the Deputy give the date?

The date was about two months before this war started. The statement was made by Deputy Dillon, and if I had half an hour to spare I could bring in the record.

We will give you half an hour.

I am sure you would, but the House had to be held three hours for you.

We will give you the half-an-hour.

I am talking to the Chair.

It does not look like it.

Is the Deputy going to get the volume with the report?

We had Deputy Brennan talking about our unpreparedness. When an effort was made to prepare the country for this situation we had Deputy Dillon saying that the British Navy was strong enough to protect ships to bring in anything that we required.

And to bring out the scrap iron.

And to sink the damn ships.

That was the mishandling of the situation that we had. We had a speech from Deputy Brennan about the policy of self-sufficiency, a Deputy who, month after month and week after week, got on his hind legs to protest against the policy of getting the people of this country to grow wheat to feed themselves. He now complains of the policy of self-sufficiency. How much bread was in the country to feed the people in 1932 if there had been an outbreak of war then? That was the year in which the Party opposite were kicked out by the people of this country. They now shout about the policy of self-sufficiency. What was their policy in 1932? We had something like 20,000 acres under wheat in that year compared to 300,000 acres in 1939, when war broke out. In the face of that situation, Deputies opposite come in and shout about the unpreparedness of the country. If we have not tea and all the nice things that Deputy Brennan would like, at any rate the people can live better now because they are sure of more than one week's supply of bread.

Deputy Brennan complained about agricultural machinery. There is no tariff on any agricultural machinery that is not being manufactured here. What, then, has the Deputy to complain about? Apparently his complaint is that Irish workmen are being employed in the manufacture of agricultural machinery here, and that its manufacture is being protected. I do not want to delay the House further. The House was held for three hours for Deputy McGilligan, and I think he can now go ahead. I do not intend to remain and listen to him.

It is very hard to understand why the holding of the local elections is being put back for another year. I, for one, do not care what Party controls local bodies, because I think we have come to the time when no Party should be mixed up with local government. The Government can hardly relieve themselves of responsibility for the way in which things have been handled. We had Deputy Corry getting up here, and the only conclusion I could come to was that he was just killing time, trying to annoy somebody at this side of the House and get them to say something which might keep us going for half an hour longer. That does not bolster up either the Taoiseach or any Minister over there. No matter how long Deputy Corry spends on trying to annoy people on this side of the House it will not help the Ministers over there. In future, when a man like Deputy Corry starts this kind of rot in the House, I think the Chair should stop him. Perhaps he should stop me now, but I will get back to the matters which we were discussing. I want to impress on the Chair that he should do that.

The Chair must be left to do the Chair's business.

Then I will leave Deputy Corry alone. I do not think there is any reason why the county councils should continue——

I do not think the Taoiseach has responsibility for that matter. Furthermore, there is a Bill in progress on which it can be discussed.

Well, I thought the Taoiseach was responsible for that, too.

The submission from the Chair is this, that legislation actually going through this House should not be discussed on this Estimate. The Deputy will make his remarks brief on that subject.

The money spent on the Taoiseach's Vote has not been well spent. He has been responsible for every Department of Government; at least he has tried, at one time or another, to make himself responsible. When any Minister was in trouble in this House, he came in to get him out of that trouble. There has been a mess made in every Department. I might make some exceptions, but in every Department there has been a mess made somewhere or other. I hold that the Taoiseach, as Leader of the Government, is responsible for that mess. Take, for instance, the Department of Supplies and the Department of Lands. The Taoiseach's Department should control those, as it controls every other Department.

What happens when a Deputy of this House is approached by one of his constituents on some matter in regard to which he has to get in touch with the Department of Agriculture? He will spend two days ringing them up, and eventually he has to ring up the Taoiseach's Department. What is the position then? He is again referred to the Department of Agriculture. I will not mention the name of civil servants, but that sort of thing is continuously happening, especially since things became critical in this country during the past six or eight months. If I go to the Land Commission and discuss matters with the commissioners, I find that they are in agreement with me in the points which I put up, but Government policy is a different matter. When Government policy disagrees with the work of the higher civil servants, then it is a matter for the Taoiseach. His Department should be the arbitrator as to whether Government policy is to be carried out or whether the policy of the people at the head of the Department should be carried out. I cannot agree to this Vote at all, unless there is some clarification as to what is to be the future policy of the Taoiseach in regard to those matters.

There is one matter to which I want to direct the special attention of the Taoiseach. On the Vote for the Department of Industry and Commerce I raised the case of a Circuit Court judge who, although he holds that position in the country under a Constitution which states that he is not to have any other place or position of profit or emolument, has succeeded in obtaining from a Government Department a licence to work certain lands for phosphates. I asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce whether he considered it compatible with the position that a judge occupies under the Constitution that he should have been given a licence under the Minerals Development Act which allows him to prospect over other people's lands and to derive profit from it. His course of proceeding has already brought him before the courts on an action taken by certain people to whom he owed money, and it was only because he pleaded that the consideration there between himself and this other person was an illegal one that he evaded having a decree made against him in the District Court. You have a situation where a judge of this country is brought as a defendant in the courts, and has to plead an illegal consideration between himself and the plaintiff before he can evade having punishment inflicted on him. The Minister for Industry and Commerce in reply said that when that particular application for a licence came before his Department they took legal advice upon it, and were told that they had no option but to give him the licence for which he applied. That being the case with the subordinate Department of Government, I now appeal to the chief of the Government. I want to find out from him whether he thinks it is compatible with the position of a judge under the Constitution that he should engage in traffic of any type for profit.

Has the Taoiseach any function in the matter?

I suggest that he has. He is the head of the Government. He is the person who carried through the Constitution in this country, and at least he should let us know whether he thinks it is compatible with the Constitution — which carries the phrase that judges are to be dependent on their salaries and not occupy any other position of profit or emolument—that a judge of the Circuit Court should engage in traffic for profit to himself. I want a ruling on that matter.

The Chair questions whether the Taoiseach has any jurisdiction in that connection.

I want to find that out. If the Taoiseach tells me he has not, I think it is proper that other judges should know that they can apply for licences for publichouses, that they can open drapers' shops or grocers' shops, or engage in any traffic in the country. If the Taoiseach tells me that he thinks that that is compatible with the judicial office, then we shall know where we are. I suggest that it is completely incompatible with the judicial office that a judge should engage in such activities for profit. I suggest that it is incompatible with the judicial position whether such activities are engaged in for profit or not, but I want to know from the Taoiseach whether, in his judgment, it is proper or compatible with the judicial position for a judge to engage in these activities, whether they are engaged in for profit or not. I suggest that it is the Taoiseach's province to tell us that. If he suggests that he has no legal hold over a particular judge in such a matter let him give his opinion on it, and then the thing can be made clear to the Bench of Judges, but I want the Taoiseach's ruling on the matter. If we have the Taoiseach's ruling, then it can be decided whether or not a person holding such a public office as that of a judge is entitled to engage in ordinary trading activities.

What the Chair desires to know is whether that is a question for the Taoiseach or for the Dáil.

I suggest, Sir, that it is a matter for the Taoiseach. If there is anybody to rule on it, I do not know who else can rule on it except the Taoiseach. I do not suppose that it is a matter that could be brought into court to decide whether it is illegal to hold such a position and at the same time engage in trading activities for profit or otherwise, but I hold that it is a matter for a ruling by the Taoiseach as to whether such a person should cease engaging in such activities or resign his judicial office. I want a ruling from the Taoiseach. If the Taoiseach thinks it is an improper thing for a judge, while holding office, to engage in such activities, then the Taoiseach, and the Taoiseach alone, has the remedy, and that is the remedy of bringing a resolution into this House. I want the matter ventilated, however, in order to see whether it is proper for persons holding judicial office in this country to engage in trade or not. I always understood that, under the Constitution, this was a simple matter and that it was never intended that judges should engage in trading or similar activities.

Is not the judiciary independent of the Legislature?

No, Sir, they are not. We can dispense with them. As a matter of fact, we have already had a motion in this House on the subject of dispensing with a judge, and we discussed it.

Yes, but on a motion.

Certainly. Somebody must give evidence of malpractice if he alleges that it is going on and if he is going to bring the matter before the Government. I suggest that what I am referring to amounts to malpractice and deserves censure and open censure, and I hold that the Taoiseach, if he thinks that that particular kind of activity is improper, should take steps either to stop that activity or to stop the judicial activity. Now, in this connection—and I do not say this in an offensive sense—I think it was evasive on the part of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, when dealing with this matter on his own Vote, to shed responsibility by saying that he had taken legal advice—apparently, it was a matter that they thought proper to take legal advice upon—and that, having taken legal advice, they were advised that they had no resort but to grant the licence. That was what the Minister said when speaking on this matter, but I am now taking it a stage further and I am asking the Taoiseach what is his view—leaving out the question of the individual—of judges engaging in trading activities while in control of their judicial office. I think that this is an exceptionally bad case, particularly because it entails getting a licence from a Government Department and entails getting a licence which, when it is granted, gives the person to whom it is granted power over other people's property. I do not think we should have any of our judges put in that position.

However, Sir, as I say, that is an incidental matter. Although I regard it as very important, it is away from the main line of the remarks that I want to make on this Vote. Now, I should have felt that it would have been better and more fitting for this Vote to have come at the end of the Estimates. It would have been more fitting in my opinion, if all the other Estimates had been taken first, with the Ministers at the head of the separate Departments, each defending his own particular activity, and then having heard them, we could discuss this Vote of the Taoiseach, who is the head of the Government. However, we have gone through the list of the Estimates already, and I must say that the attitude of the Ministers to their work in this time of crisis—the attitude of each Minister in the parade of Ministers, each defending his own Department—has been a rather sorry type of spectacle. If we are to judge them by how they have met the crisis, what new energy was put into them as a result of the crisis, what special precautions they took to provide against the crisis or to prevent the shock of the crisis from falling too heavily on the people, I suggest that Deputies of this House must go away full of fears and timidity for the future after what has been paraded before us. I think that the war has only begun to affect this country in respect of supplies and other matters. If the best that we can hope for is a continuance of what is represented here as Ministerial effort to avoid the crisis from the 1st of January up to date, people must have derived serious forebodings with regard to the future.

I single out, in particular, the question of supplies. The people here got the first shock in regard to supplies about the middle of the month of January last, when we had the announcement with regard to petrol. At the same time, I think, they were also very seriously disturbed by the Ministerial announcement with regard to the agricultural position. We had these two announcements, one made just at the beginning of the new year and another about 15 days afterwards, and these announcements indicated to the people that in regard to certain things—one a vital necessity for them and the other something that is very near the first rank in the way of a necessity—there was grave fear of a deficiency. Very little was done in the way of getting in supplies and nothing had been done in the months before that crisis arose with regard to securing shipping when ships were to be had and when the seas were relatively safe. Although shipping was to be had and the seas were comparatively safe, still we had no increased bulk of these two commodities, wheat and petrol. From that particular period onwards, all that we heard from the Department of Supplies was a series of confessions of failure one after another, until the Minister now seems to think that he does his duty when he tells us, not what supplies are in the country, but what supplies are not in the country.

From the 15th January to date, we have had a series of evasions which, unfortunately for the Minister, were soon shown up as such by fact. When we first came to discuss petrol here, we were told that the situation was bad, but that in regard to pretty nearly everything else the situation was all right. About a fortnight afterwards we were told that another commodity was to be added to the list. So now we had two, but we were told that nearly everything else was all right. One of the things about which we were told that the position was satisfactory was tea, but on the verge of Easter our tea ration was cut. So far as England was concerned our tea supplies were cut down to 25 per cent. of our normal requirements. The Minister on that occasion was somewhat belligerent, and said that he was not satisfied with the explanation that had been given by England on that matter and that he proposed to pursue inquiries into it. On a few occasions since then, I asked the Minister whether he had pursued these inquiries and what was the result of them, and the only answer I got was that we were shut down to a particular level of supplies of tea and that nothing could be done about it. Even in that debate, although it was admitted that the tea situation was precarious, nevertheless there was a considerable amount of patting on the back on the part of Ministers with regard to raw materials for industry, but within the last six weeks we have been informed that, so far as our industries are concerned, they depend on imported raw materials, that there is a very definitely gloomy picture ahead of us, and that we are going to suffer enormously from the backwash of the war.

The Minister, who is the apostle of self-sufficiency, said at one time, I think, that this country had reached such a measure of self-sufficiency as almost to be independent of supplies of raw materials or of finished goods. That curtain was torn down, and I think the failure of the Ministry stands clearly revealed before the people in the last couple of weeks and that it has been clearly shown that their policy of self-sufficiency is a myth. So far as there was any attempt made at achieving self-sufficiency, it now stands clearly revealed that this country still has to depend on imports of manufactured and semi-manufactured goods and the raw materials of machinery and industry generally, and it has also been shown very clearly that no proper precautions were taken to get in a surplus of these materials on which we might have to depend when the crisis was upon us.

The last attempt at an excuse which we have is the one which founds itself upon a deluding of public opinion by suppressing material information. For a reason that has never been explained—no approach to an explanation has been given—we are told that it is not in the public interest to supply Deputies with the figures with regard to the imports of certain commodities over a 12 months' period. Why it should be harmful to the public interest to say what supplies of tea we got in stated years I have not yet been able to appreciate. No argument has been used upon which anybody could lean in that connection. So far as tea is concerned, so far as petrol is concerned, so far as wheat is concerned, and so far as flour is concerned, the Ministry sheltered behind the statement that it would be harmful in the public interest to tell us what was brought in in certain years.

It is obvious why those figures should be given to us. It would enable us immediately to see whether there is any truth in the Ministerial boast that, as from the Munich period, or some short period after that, great efforts were made by the Department of Supplies and great success attended those efforts, and that any amount of extra supplies of those things were got in. The peculiar situation about those figures is that we have been supplied with them, we know what the figures are, but they have been given to us under a promise of confidence. It is the Government's policy or idea or viewpoint that those figures might be harmful to the public interest if revealed, and we are not to expose them in the Dáil. But we speak of them with knowledge. We have the figures before us, and the Ministers know we have the figures. We speak in a way which is likely to confuse the public, because we speak with information from a clear, distinct, tabular set of figures before us, and the populace get nothing of these.

On the last occasion the figures were discussed, the last refuge of the Government with regard to them was this. If you compare year by year, you might not see much difference. If you compare a six months' period or a nine months' period, you might not see much difference. But if you take a particular eight months' period, in which, as I expect, the Government's effort was at its highest in getting in supplies, and make a comparison of that particular selected eight months with the corresponding eight months' period in the previous year, then you would get an appreciation of what the Government effort brought the country. I have made that comparison in regard to half a dozen commodities the Minister for Supplies talked about. The figures varied, but I suggest that the figures bear this out: that the best that can be said for the Government is that they, in eight months, got in one month's extra supply of about six different commodities. I am taking the average; in some cases, there was less and in some cases, more; but, averaging those important matters, the whole effort of the Department of Supplies up to, say, the fall of France, was to get into this country one month's supply more than would have come in in the normal way. Of course, after that super-human effort in getting in an extra month's supply of wheat, coal, tea, petrol, naturally the Ministry sat back and let events take their course.

I have often referred to the way in which the Department of Supplies was viewed by the Minister who was put in charge of it in the beginning. He did not seem to think a whole lot of the importance of his post. Undoubtedly, he did not seem to think that there was very much to be done in it. He was in a belligerently optimistic mood when he spoke here. His first announcement to the public was in September, 1938, and here is the way he announced it.

Would the Deputy state who was the Minister?

The Minister for Supplies, who was then Minister for Industry and Commerce. The Minister said:

"Both myself and the officials of our Departments have been compelled during the last few weeks to neglect our ordinary activities, and, instead of exploring the new industrial possibilities and the necessary legislation, we have been hastily devising plans to meet the possible emergency of a European war, including the rationing of petrol, the provision of necessary supplies and the control of distribution. It is an unfortunate thing that so much energy——"

That is, the whole of the wide Department, considered as such, was thrown into the Department of Supplies for a few weeks, hastily to concert plans against the possible emergency.

"It is an unfortunate thing that so much energy, which should be available for the promotion of the prosperity of this country has to be devoted now to work of that kind."

This is what I think gives his view of the job he had been given:

"I sincerely hope that the fruit of the work we have been doing for the past month or two will never see the light of day, and that these plans will lie in the pigeon-holes in the Department and accumulate the dust with the years."

That is the mood of the man who wanted to bring back all the emigrants to this country. We had so much work here that we would have to send abroad for the millions of people who went out of the country and bring them back to a land which was to be buzzing with industry and able to provide more work than we had hands to do.

In 1938 he was talking about the amazing energy that he and his officials had put in for a couple of months. They had prepared plans in that couple of months in regard to the rationing, the distribution of necessary supplies, and the getting in of them, and the plans were there after a couple of months. All he could hope was that they would lie there and accumulate dust with the years. That particular view proceeding from the Minister, who afterwards became Minister for Supplies, and who was known mainly as the Minister for boasting, had not the same public effect as it would have if a more sober individual had spoken in that way. Nevertheless, the line of the person who was in charge of the matter, the person who afterwards was supposed to be so good that he was promoted to the headship of the Department of Supplies when set up as a separate Department, was that he was taken off his ordinary work on industrial development and expended a vast amount of energy in getting ready plans for the rationing and distribution of petrol and other necessaries.

We are still waiting for the rationing. One of the last excuses I heard from the Minister about rationing was that the difficulty he now saw was that paper had become so scarce that rationing cards might be unprocurable. In those days he had the plans ready with regard to rationing petrol, the bringing in of other necessaries and the rationing and distribution of those. We know exactly now, as the months roll past, what provision was made. I suggest that, if the Government would dare to publish the statistics for the eight selected months upon which they pin their case and let us compare those with any other ordinary eight months, my conclusion would be borne out— that the most that was done either by the Minister for Industry and Commerce in charge of the supplies part of that Department, or afterwards as the head of the Department, was that in five separate commodities he secured about one month's extra supply, and that is the beginning and end of his efforts.

He told us with regard to this tea matter that he was not satisfied with the British Government's attitude. He told us, with a certain amount of hostility and dismay in his voice, that he had entered into an arrangement with the British Tea Control Board and that they promised him that we would get normal supplies based, I think, on an average of the two previous years. I asked him whether there were any other channels of supply open when he made that arrangement, and he said there were. Then I asked him whether the arrangement he had made with the British Tea Control Board to supply us with 100 per cent. of our requirements on a two years' average was dated for a special period, or whether there was any indication that it was a mere emergency plan, and he said that he had not suggested it should be dated, that he naturally understood that it would last as long as they could make it last. He was asked further whether at any time he suggested, when he was entering into an arrangement with the British Tea Control Board, which he need not have made according to himself, that if supplies ran short, we could get a fixed percentage equal to what the British themselves were getting, or if we could get any percentage based on our previous requirements as the British themselves say they were getting. He said "No."

These propositions apparently had not been thought of, or, if they had been thought of as propositions, they were certainly not put forward. Of course, at that time, he was in a somewhat belligerent mood. It was on the eve of a vacation and he was about to have a respite from questioning. He thought the public memory was short and, I suppose, that nobody would revert to it. He had the flare-up that we were not being treated properly, and announced that he was going to pursue the British in the matter and make representations to them. We do not know what the result of these representations were, if they were made, but our situation with regard to tea is as bad as it was on the eve of the vacation, when he spoke in that lamentable way of it. I take that as a very fair example of what the Minister for Supplies did.

The petrol situation has been discussed here at length. It is probably a worse situation than even the tea situation, because there was available in this country certain storage which was not used, and plans were given and propositions made to the Minister about further storage which he turned down, and he left us in the position in which we now are. The country's mind, however, is not so much fixed on petrol because it is something we have realised we can do without to a certain degree, and it is not even so much fixed on the tea situation because the people have become accommodated, although certain people find it harder than others to accommodate themselves, to the shortage. The public mind in this session has been riveted on the fuel position, and we had a disquisition from the person very lately appointed in charge of fuel in this country as to what he proposed to do and what prospects he had of success in his efforts.

In that connection, I want to call attention to another question with regard to fuel as late as 24th April. The Minister for Industry and Commerce was there asked if he could give the House any indication as to the extra amount of turf over and above ordinary turf needs which would be required to meet the estimated deficiency of imported coal for domestic purposes. That was a necessary preamble to what the question went on to put. The rest of the question was: Over what period of the year can extra turf be cut and saved; whether there was any preliminary survey made; how far that survey warranted any hope that increased turf would be cut and saved; and, if hope was not warranted by the preliminary survey, what was the alternative which the Government proposed? Remember that the date is 24th April. Part of the reply was that

"the extra turf can only be cut during the normal turf-cutting season which, dependent on weather conditions, extends from March to August."

The season, therefore, is narrowly restricted. Fully extended it runs from March to August, if the weather is good, and, on 24th April, when almost two months had gone, the Government are asked if they will state what was the position in regard to it, if they had yet made their minds up and what was the increased quantity which had to be won. The beginning of the reply was:

"No forecast can be given of the extent of the probable deficiency of imported coal during the coming year and no estimate, therefore, can be given at the moment as to the extent to which extra turf can be cut and saved to meet the deficiency of imported coal for domestic purposes."

So that, on 24th April, the Government did not know even sufficiently generally to answer a Parliamentary question what was the likely deficiency in the ordinary imports of domestic coal, and, not having that information, or not being able to hazard a forecast with regard to it, they could not say what were the requirements in the way of extra turf to be cut and saved during the short season. They could not hazard an estimate of the deficiency in imports of coal, and, therefore, could not come to any conclusion about the amount of extra turf that had to be won. Naturally, with that as the preamble to the reply, there was not much good likely to be got out of the rest of the answer, which ran on in very much the same formal way. The question had been put as to what effort was being made to cut extra turf, and a column and a half followed in which it was stated that people had been given power to acquire turbary rights, that arrangements had been made with the Land Commission and the Turf Development Board to make available turf banks in their possession, that the Turf Development Board had taken steps to secure the maximum output of turf, and that local authorities had been exhorted to do all sorts of things. At the end of the paragraph there occurs this: "There is every reason to believe that this action by the local authorities will prove effective in increasing substantially future turf supplies."

Then it went on to parish councils and to what was being done through these councils, and, finally, at this stage, 24th April of this year, the Government boasted that they had given an assurance to people that any turf cut would be bought. This is the finishing paragraph:

"My statement should indicate that every effort which could be made by the Central Government to meet the anticipated fuel shortage has been made. The issue of exercising the powers given rests with the local authorities. The responsibility of each parish, as well as of each coal merchant and factory owner, has been made quite clear. An assured market has been given to each turf cutter."

Then comes this bit of sunburstry:

"I must repeat, however, that the results of our effort will depend to a very large extent on local effort and the co-operation and initiative of all those affected in the turf-cutting districts. I feel confident that we can rely on them."

That is the 24th April attitude with regard to turf. They did not know how much turf had to be cut, because they they did not know how short imports of coal were going to be. They had done all that the Central Government could do in giving powers to local authorities, and had sent out a few leaflets exhorting local authorities and parish councils to do their duty, and they rested confident, on 24th April, that they could rely on the co-operation and initiative of those affected in the turf-cutting districts; and then, somewhere about the middle of June, we had a turf controller appointed, with the season ending somewhere in August. Anybody who follows the English newspapers, let alone any more intimate sources of information, must have known that the English mineowners and miners had been called into frequent conferences to see whether they could not increase the output of the English mines. I called the attention of the Minister for Industry and Commerce and of the Minister for Supplies to one such meeting which took place early in February, or late in January. I asked, as a preamble to a few other items, whether he had noticed that this meeting had been held, and the abrupt Parliamentary reply given was that his notice had not been called to this meeting.

Anybody reading the newspapers would have seen that one of the Ministers on the other side had called into a very important conference all the mine owners and miners, and had appealed to them and exhorted them to increase the output. The increased output that was looked for in those days was about 33? per cent., and the reason for it was given under certain heads—more factories coming into production, and in particular, more munition factories, and that they were trying to get arrangements made as against the winter to pile up an adequate reserve. Anybody reading that must have come to the conclusion that the chances of this country getting a continuance of its normal imports were very small. The Minister had not heard of that meeting, and, on 24th April, nobody seemed to know what the likelihood of the deficiency in the old coal import was. Certainly, they did not know enough to be able to forecast what extra turf would be required.

We slide along in that position, talking about the confidence we have in the initiative of the local authorities and in the co-operation there will be between them until it comes to mid-June, and then we have an undone job thrown at the head of the Parliamentary Secretary. He spoke in a debate here on the 1st and 2nd July, and, taking his estimates, it is quite clear that, so far as Dublin City is concerned, they are not going to have anything like the amount of turf required to make up for the deficiency of imported coal for domestic purposes. After the Parliamentary Secretary had spoken, and his estimates did not indicate that the city was going to have anything like its requirements met, the Taoiseach stood up to remark that the Parliamentary Secretary had talked about getting 1,000,000 tons at a particular period and he thought that it would put him to the pin of his collar to get that quantity; he was not going to found any false optimism on the Parliamentary Secretary's speech. I doubt if he can get that quantity and, even if he does get it, this city is going to go cold during a part of the winter.

Let me get back to the Parliamentary question on the 24th April. If that is the situation with regard to coal, and if we can make good only a part of the deficiency, what else is going to be done? Will the Government think that they have done their duty in simply announcing the deficiencies and leaving the people to fend for themselves? Is that their conception of government in a crisis? First they throw the responsibility on the local authorities, and then they think it wise to throw it on a junior member of the Government. The rest of the Government sit back and say: "We have done all that, and that is all we can do."

Can the Ministry project themselves about three or four months forward and contemplate Dublin under ordinary winter conditions—the rain that will fall, the slush that will be in the streets, the possibility of snow, and the definite discomfort and cold that will arise from the piercing winds that blow around this city? Do the Government think they can continue to be complacent, or that the people will continue to be complacent if they find in these circumstances that the best the Government can offer is a harking back to the situation as it was in April and June? Do the Government think it will be any defence of their inaction to say: "Well, in June we woke up and we threw a junior member of the Government at the job and cleared the Minister for Supplies out of it?"

That is the situation the people of Dublin are thinking about. They have got inured to the deficiencies and defects with regard to petrol, tea, wheat and other things. The Government are apparently determined to let the people go through the winter with the present situation in respect to fuel developing and getting worse. While that situation is developing, we have appeals from the Electricity Supply Board and the Gas Company requesting the people to cut down their consumption of these things. What is the position now? There has been a wail from these people to the effect that, instead of a decrease, there has been an increase in consumption. Could they expect anything else? If people cannot get fuel with which to heat or cook and supply all the domestic needs for which fuel is required, what are they going to turn to? Have the Government any resource other than the late appointment of a Parliamentary Secretary to look after the turf situation?

I think that people are entitled to be told what is the cause of the shortage of coal supplies. Is it lack of transport or lack of fuel on the other side—fuel available for us? Or is it a mixture of both? If it is a question of transport, has anyone thought of the possibility that during the calm periods ahead, so far as transport by sea is concerned, something better in the way of a decisive effort might be attempted by the recruitment of all sorts of craft to get coal of any type to the people of Dublin? If there is no resource that way, we will have to hear about it. Is it that the coal is not there to be got, or that you will not risk whatever transport there is and there is no question of trying to get some sort of emergency transport which will help to relieve the impending shortage? If there is a mixture of both, then what bargain can be made with the other side?

I understand that a statement was made to the effect that we could stop the export of pit props to the other side. I do not know whether these props can be used here as fuel. I do not know if they will have a value on the other side as a bargaining factor in trying to get some sort of coal supplies here. Are we to accept it that an offer of that type was made and, if so, what were the grounds on which it was refused? I should like to know was the offer made and, if it was, why was it refused? Perhaps the point could be made that there are many things we have that the people on the other side need, and there are certain things that the people on the other side have and there are corresponding needs here, but the House has not learned what efforts were made to bring these complementary needs into relation in order to see if we could not get our needs supplied in return for our supplying the needs on the other side.

So far as the turf situation is concerned, we have the complacency on the 24th April, a definite lack of knowledge that is simply appalling on the 24th April, but at the same time a feeling of complacency that everything was going to be all right. It was sufficient then to give a parish council an odd exhortation, or address a meeting here and there, and the Government felt that everything would be all right. The season was March to August and there was no reason to ask any further questions; no one would dare to ask much more in the face of the reply given on that date. The Government did not even think it wise to get one of their own people to ask a question as to what further efforts were being made since 24th April. There was nothing until this late appointment of an individual to look after the saving and winning of turf. That was done in June, and the July speech indicated an appreciation of the fact that the appointment was a late one and that there would be tremendous difficulties in getting out the turf.

The Parliamentary Secretary spoke in a reserved way and the Taoiseach jumped up to tell us that whatever he said ought to be taken with reservations. He was not going to agree that what the Parliamentary Secretary said was likely to be achieved. We heard nothing since then about any other substitute. I do not know if the Government intend to let that situation develop at increasing speed until winter comes. What they will do then we do not know.

There is the situation with regard to two main matters. The situation with regard to supplies has been exemplified by what has happened in relation to tea. The position with regard to turf shows a total lack of appreciation of existing conditions. There is the fact that from across the water they have not satisfied our ordinary coal needs and we have not been acquainted of the development of any policy against this. There is the attempt to shelter behind the local authorities, the attempt to hand over what was a function of central Government to people who could not have the same responsibility in regard to this matter and who were not provided with schemes or plans and were merely left to their own devices. They were told they could enter on turf banks and any turf won would be bought. That being the position with regard to supplies, it must be clear that that, of course, is going to hit hardest on certain elements in this community.

There are certain people who a year ago were asked to get in supplies of certain things and they did. Whether that is the explanation of the deficiency that has occurred with regard to tea, or whether there is something else, I do not know. The tea import figures show that a considerable quantity of tea was imported over a particular period, yet tea is now not only very scarce but very dear. There are certain people in the community who depend more on tea than others, and who cannot easily accommodate themselves to any other beverage. Their position is much worse than that of other people. They had not the money to lay in supplies of tea at the time they were told supplies were good.

There are certain people, too, who buy fuel from day to day, or week to week. They are going to suffer most if the present stringent conditions with regard to fuel continue into the winter. Quite a big number of them are living in large tenement houses, which, as we know, have large open fireplaces. These are more wasteful in the burning of turf and other substitute fuel than the grates in the ordinary houses. One wants to find out what provision is being made in the way of a special type of relief for those people. On that point there is no evidence of any Government plan. No scheme has been promulgated. The Government do not appear to have thought out the matter. There is no indication of any preparations to face these problems.

We may be able to get the mind of the Government on these matters in another way. The two great features of the session that is coming to a close have been the Budget and the order that we discussed the other night, Emergency Powers Order No. 83. Order No. 83 was, at first, in two parts. It dealt with companies and with individuals of the wage-earning type. Companies were told that they were not going to be allowed to pay out dividends higher than a particular figure. The figure was, of course, a fluctuating matter. The point at any rate was that the company could not pay out a higher dividend than 6 per cent. Then some trouble arose. A certain agitation was started. The Minister for Industry and Commerce visited the Clondalkin Paper Mills, where he said that several companies had misunderstood the order. He said they had been attacked in the Press as if the order meant that companies could not earn more than 6 per cent. He said they could earn anything they like, but could not make a greater distribution than 6 per cent. Companies could put in reserve anything above that. There was a purchase order which was supposed to prevent commodities increasing in price to the detriment of the consuming public; but take the position of companies: they are to be free to get any price they can for the commodities they sell, but cannot make a greater distribution in the way of dividend than 6 per cent. I would say that is a generous enough allowance, even in these days, as a pay out.

When one turns to the other side of the order one finds that it is phrased in terms of "pay". Employers are forbidden to pay their workers more than they had been receiving on the 7th May. It has not yet been declared whether, corresponding to the companies' situation, employers are free to make contracts with their employees on a sliding scale, dependent on the cost of living, and to fund over and above the wage that was being paid out on the 7th May. At any rate, the purpose of the order is that the man who is paying out is not allowed to increase wages above what they were on the 7th May. There are only two exceptions to that. One is that if there was some regulation about a minimum wage, and if that was not being paid, then the worker can get that minimum wage. If it was a trade board matter in which wages were fixed by the trade board, and if an employer was not paying that fixed rate, the employee can go on and get it. With these two exceptions, an attempt was made to stereotype the wage paid out to people of the wage-earning class on the 7th May. Any wage which had a consequential increase in the cost of living attached to it could not be paid either. That is forbidden under an amending order. In the case of a company, however, whatever the cost of commodities is going to be to the consumer, it is free to get whatever price it can for them. If that means that a company is going to be able to make more money than will enable it to pay out more than a 6 per cent. dividend, it is free to fund the excess. As far as the worker is concerned, he gets the wages he had on the 7th May and nothing more. I do not know how that is going to be explained.

I have before me a record of discussions ranging over such terms as excess profits and excess incomes. Excess profits, of course, have not been tackled. The worker is not being allowed to earn his old income. On the wage that he was in receipt of on the 7th May—taking into account the increase there has been in the cost of living—its purchasing power is bound to decrease considerably. Under Order 83 if the wage earner gets nothing more than what he had on the 7th May, and if the price of commodities is increased by the application of the other part of the order, then obviously the value of his wage goes down, but he is to be stuck to that amount. It is not excess profits. It is not excess income, or even the same income that he had.

The Minister for Finance, in introducing his Budget, talked about getting at excess profits. He told us that, of course, he had been relying on his colleague who talked so much about price control and the Prices Commission, but was a sort of asleep with regard to the possibility of there being excess profits got by companies. The Minister came in here at Budget time and said that he had got the accounts, and that these indicated that "a considerable number of businesses had been making substantially increased profits since the outbreak of the war". He added that "these concerns were mainly in the hands of limited companies". Later he said that he wanted "to get for the Exchequer a very substantial proportion of the increased profits which had accrued as a result of the war". Let us take that as a finding of fact by the Minister for Finance. Notwithstanding all the talk there had been by the Minister's colleague of a device for price control and of keeping people down to earning what they had been making before, and of not allowing prices to increase, the Minister for Finance came along and said that the accounts showed that "a considerable number of businesses had been making substantially increased profits". The Minister has never gone back on that statement. When, on a later stage of the Finance Bill, he came in with his amendments, he never said that that was a false finding. He did say that he was modifying his original proposals because of arguments that had been put up here in the House. The Minister's Budget arrangements were criticised. There was a general chorus of welcome that he should "skin the profiteer". I heard that phrase used here. In fact, I heard people arguing—I argued myself—that the one defect we found with regard to the real profiteer was that the Minister should not only date back to the beginning of the war, but that he should go back to the earlier period, when vast profits were being made. It was pointed out to him that the method he was adopting, in taking what he called a standard year, helped the adept profiteer, who succeeded because he had no conscientious scruples about making money out of the necessities of the people, and who would have piled up such a good profit out of those average years that it would be a very big year indeed in which he would have topped that again.

That was what was put to the Minister in regard to the profiteer. He was told to get after him good and hard, and not even to stop at the 1939 autumn period. It was pointed out to him that his proposals might harm decent business people. The case of the extending business was talked of here at great length, and the Minister did not indicate in the speech he made at the close of the Second Reading of the Finance Bill that he was going to make a fundamental change in his whole Budgetary arrangements. But he came back here calmly dropping £500,000, which he proposed to borrow, and that £500,000 was a grant to the people whom he described as profiteers. I could well imagine a situation in which he would come back to the House stating that an examination of the accounts showed that he was mistaken, that in fact those profits had not been made, and that he had to withdraw the language he had used about those people. But he never withdrew one line of it; the finding of facts was still there. He just calmly threw aside his weapon of taxation against those people. He dropped, according to himself, something more than £500,000, and that he proposes to fund and to borrow. As far as this House is aware from subsequent speeches of the Minister he does not propose hereafter to get that money from those people. They have been given a present of that money, which he described as the fruits of profiteering. I want to contrast that with the wage side of Order 83. Order 83 hits the poor man who is suffering because commodities are increasing in price. It is a patent fact that commodities are increasing in price. The cost of living figures tell that, if nothing else would tell it. That means that the wages which a man was getting on 7th May are not likely to buy him as much hereafter as they used to buy, and part of the reason why they will not buy as much as they used to buy is that the profiteer has been recognised, has been present in this State, and is being permitted to go on. The poor man is being tied down to the 7th May wage in order that a considerable number of businesses will continue to make substantially increased profits arising out of the war. The Government are on show here in the comparison between that order and the Budget situation. They are on show. They have had revealed their policy as between two classes of the community—the class whom the Minister for Finance, with the approval of the Government, described as profiteers, and the people who are put down in Order 83 as the wage earning part of the population. Nobody, of course, starting from that could expect that a Government having that view with regard to the taking of moneys from people would be very much concerned about whether a shortage of tea or a shortage of coal or any other shortage would hit more heavily against one section of the community than the other.

It is in line with that attitude which they adopted on the Budget and on Order 83 that they have made no announcement as to what help they think it is in their power to give the poorer sections of the community on that vital matter of turf as a substitute fuel in Dublin—I will limit it to that—in the coming winter. As far as this House is concerned—we are within a week or ten days of parting company for several months—the situation in Dublin is going to be that of a city deprived of about one-half of its normal requirements in the way of heating materials. The poorer sections of the community have certainly not provided themselves, because they have not the means to provide themselves, with any supplies, and they are fixed in houses which are less easily adapted to the consumption of substitute fuel than other houses. The Government do not tell us what plans they have against that. Long ago an American statesman said that when he thought of the negro in the States, and remembered that God is just, he began to tremble for his country. I wonder would the Government stop and tell us whether, from time to time, they have thought about the situation in the poorer quarters of Dublin in, say, the period from October to March next, and whether there is anything just in their attitude or anything wise in their provisions against the emergency that is coming upon those people in that limited period. Can they not say now, looking back on it—it would be some sign of grace if they did— that they had not foreseen this situation as it was developing, although the signs were under their eyes; that they let the thing go too late; that the appointment of the Parliamentary Secretary is the merest subterfuge; that he has been given an impossible task and cannot carry it out? If they appreciate that and say that, they must go further, or else the Government means nothing in the country. They must go further and say what in the way of further substitute they are going to get, what effort they are going to make—it could even, with the approval of this House, be one irrespective of cost—to try to keep people from the misery of cold that is coming upon them in the near future.

If you take the population of this State, in so far as they are divided between those who are at work and those who are not at work, that situation is developing in the wrong way. There are more people leaving the ranks of those who go into work every day, and joining those who are outside in the queues at the different assistance places. Even in the case of those who are at work, under Order 83 their wages are pegged down to a particular level which will not permit them to buy as much as they used to buy. The only case in the situation is one that nobody can pride himself on, and that is that, despite the position we have taken up here vis-á-vis the war, despite what our newspapers tell us of the dangers and the terrors there are in leaving this country for the neighbouring island, people would rather face the horrors of all that science can do in the way of bombardment than face what they are being faced with in this country under the situation which the Government has brought about.

Certain Deputies have raised in some detail on this particular Vote the question of the turf position. I am very doubtful whether this is the Vote upon which any detailed examination of that particular issue should be made, first, having regard to the fact that we have very recently discussed it, and dealt with it up to the limit of the knowledge which we then possessed, and secondly, because there is on the Order Paper at the present moment a Supplementary Vote by the Minister for Finance for emergency services. Under that Vote, which will come on for discussion in a very short time, the exceptional financial arrangements of one kind or another which are being made and will have to be made in regard to this matter are to be accounted for. Under that Vote a full and detailed examination and debate will take place, and, I hope, a very full and co-operative contribution by members on all sides of the House will be made to the solution of this question, in so far as it can be solved in co-operation. There are, however, certain points on which I think something ought to be said here, as various members of the House have concerned themselves with the turf position.

Deputy McGilligan says that on the 24th April, some Minister, answering a question, was not in a position to state with any degree of definiteness what the coal position would be and, therefore, what amount of turf would be required. Well, I have been in fairly close touch not merely with Governmental information upon the subject but information which, in many cases, I would regard as of more value—that is to say, the information of people who are engaged in the trade—and on the 24th April it is perfectly clear that those who were engaged in the trade, those who had long years of knowledge and capacity to make judgments, with close and intimate contacts, and information from those who were in a position to produce coal, did not know, nor was there any conformity between those who were in the position to be experts in the matter in the opinions which they held. From men representing a very high proportion of the total import into this country, men who had been in the trade for generations, who had the closest and the most intimate and the most practical contact with the question, I got information as completely contradictory as it was possible to get. I found men of the highest optimism. I found men of the clearest pessimism. And I found men who were optimists to-day changing places with the pessimists to-morrow.

Deputy McGilligan takes, as an example, just some meeting that was held in England, and he seemingly suggested that some Minister did not advert to the full significance of that one meeting. That is the evidence, at the moment—and the only evidence, as far as I know—that he has, ex professo, put before the House in this matter. All those competent people of whom I speak were fully aware of that meeting and all other meetings, and could give me intimate information relating to what was happening at miners' meetings and other meetings in England, and still they differed on the position. That was not merely on the 24th April. Any member of this House who is in contact with business people will know that long after the 24th April exactly the same position existed. I have had, within the last few days, statements from men who, in a business sense, I would regard as highly competent in the matter of fuel, who say that in the autumn the position in relation to fuel is going to be better. Just at the same time I have men who say that it is going to grow progressively worse. For anyone, therefore, to suggest that there was in the possession of civil servants advising a Minister the knowledge which would enable them to speak ex cathedra upon this subject is certainly not in conformity with the facts. Any civil servant or inquirer of that order, who had advised in any categoric manner his Minister in relation to the prospects of fuel long after the 24th April, would have been doing something which the competent men in the trade would not have been prepared to do.

So much for that. Personally, and after the repercussions of petrol and other shortages and certain indications, I was of opinion that whatever the optimistic prospects might be of coal, the pessimistic possibilities required that we should take every precaution that was possible to provide for ourselves all the home-produced fuel we could get as a security and as an insurance, and from that date, the 25th March, on which I first came into contact with that particular proposition there was set up the machinery for getting the maximum and the unlimited maximum of turf production which, under present circumstances, we could get. There was set up for the purpose the most competent organisation, in my opinion, an organisation to which there was no visible alternative, and to which I do not now know the alternative, of any equal competence. There was set up the particular organisation in which there was the use of the whole of the engineering staff in the possession of the local authorities, and from that day I believe that all those engaged in it have done their best and have produced results.

The suggestion that all that has happened was that somebody issued a leaflet and somebody else made a speech is simply nonsense. Behind that, there was steadily building up an executive and a productive machine which, on last Saturday, employed 31,588 people on the bog, cutting turf directly for the State, and cutting for it 92,000 tons of dried turf in that week. There has, up to the present— up to the last word that I have—850,000 tons of turf, the equivalent of 850,000 tons of turf, been cut by that direct State organisation under that direct direction of the Government for the purpose of meeting that difficulty. There has been stimulated and encouraged around it a production which, at the present moment, is probably well over 300,000 tons, and by the time we have to face the fact that cutting turf later will be to cut it against the judgment and experience of the country—by the middle of next month when, in general, the production of turf becomes a gamble with the odds against —there will have been produced the equivalent of 1,000,000 tons or more of dried turf in the possession of that organisation. There will be, probably, between 400,000 and 500,000 tons in the possession of the auxiliary organisation. There will be more turf cut on the bogs by private persons than has ever been cut in the history of this country.

That may be insufficient, but it is not a small effort, which it is very foolishly suggested it is; nor does it show that disregard for the responsibilities which the Government have in this matter and which they are trying to discharge. I am trying to keep this discussion, so far as I am concerned, now and until the end of the production of turf, on the lines of a constructive discussion. Deputy McGilligan asked: "Where is your alternative?" I ask Deputy McGilligan, in all kindness and honesty, where is his alternative.

Am I in Government?

If that is the Deputy's answer, that is sufficient.

It is the start of it.

I do not want any other answer but that.

Can you get coal from England?

We cannot get any more coal from England than we are getting at present.

That I do not know. What I am concerned with is the objective facts.

I want to know is it the question of supplies or of transport?

I am taking the objective fact that we are getting all we can by every method we can use.

I do not believe that.

That finishes it. We must get back to the Deputy's alternative. What is his alternative to coal?

His alternative to coal, is coal.

People will be cold if they are going to take as his alternative of the coal they have not got, the coal that Deputy McGilligan thinks they ought to have. If that is the only thing that is to keep them warm for the winter, they prefer our turf.

If they can get it.

Let us take the alternatives, the possible means of providing these people with fuel. Let us face the awkward fact that we have to do with what we can get. There is coal, there is turf, there is scrub wood. In my opinion, at the present moment the Government, by all the agencies at their disposal, are trying to get the maximum amount of coal. I am satisfied that they will continue to do so, and that that amount of coal is not increasible by anything that can be said or argued here across the floor. Turf we have got to a greater extent of production than ever has been in the country before. We propose, at great risks, financial risks and others, to get as much more turf as we dare. Already I am cutting in certain places in opposition to the experience and the judgment of competent men, and every day after this we will be cutting against the judgment of competent men. We are taking that risk, and, for every day after this that we cut, the risk is increasing. I think it is the judgment of the House that we should take that risk, and that at the end of the campaign we ought to be able to say that, even at the risk of loss, even at the risk of expensive turf, even at the risk of people being able to pick out particular examples of things that should not be done, we went on getting the maximum. That will be done.

Is it being done in all areas?

I think so. The Deputy is from Wicklow. Wicklow is cutting 1 per cent.

I am not dealing with Wicklow.

If the Deputy has some particular place in his mind, I would be glad if he would tell me. This question will come up for a much more exacting and close discussion on the Vote and, between now and the coming up of that Vote, if Deputies have information of things that they think are wrong or neglected, if they have questions which they want to ask, if they have suggestions of any kind, if they will send them to me, I will deal with them then to the very best of my ability.

The third available source of fuel is scrub wood, and the Minister for Lands is already cutting 100,000 tons of that wood. I think as much more, and perhaps considerably more, will be cut by another organisation. Now add those together, all the coal the Minister for Supplies can import, all the turf that we and every other ancillary body can produce, the timber produced by the Minister for Lands, and the further timber that will be cut, and that is the total fuel available. If anybody will tell me any other place in which I can get fuel by any effort, then I will do it. But if you do not know anywhere else, then let us be honest, add up what we have got, and ask ourselves what we will do with it. What is the fair way of dealing with it? What is the honest way of distributing it within the possibilities—and that is all we can do? If, in fact, people are to go cold through inescapable necessity, then that must happen. But it is the business of this House to mitigate any such hardship by the fairest possible distribution and the most efficient possible transport and collection.

Let us now turn to what we can do. Certain counties have been scheduled as turf counties. The first effect of that was to deprive the whole of those turf counties of their proper and reasonable share of coal. That was the first effect of it, and that was the effect that was intended. What is the grievance of the eastern counties because the turf counties have made that sacrifice? From not one of the turf counties had we a protest of any kind. It is a great credit to the people on the 10,000,000 acres of land comprised in those counties that no word of selfish protest has come from them because that sacrifice was imposed upon them. That sacrifice was imposed upon them in order that Dublin, Waterford, Drogheda, Dundalk, Wicklow, Wexford, and places of that kind could have the turf areas' share of coal. The first effect, therefore, is to concentrate on the non-turf areas the whole of the domestic coal which is available—a generous and a statesman-like action on the part of the turf areas.

I think there is enough turf cut to deal with the whole of the turf areas, but the number of areas in which any very considerable excess of turf has been cut, over and above what we are dealing with through the county surveyors' organisations, is very small, and they are all distant counties, because the turf had to be cut where the turf cutters were, where the men who were used to cutting turf were and where the men who were prepared to cut unlimited turf, if they were given the opportunity, were.

The counties which have produced a large excess of turf are Donegal, Mayo, and Galway, to a certain extent. There is some in Clare and I hope, before the end of the season, there will be a considerable amount in Kerry. Some excess turf can be got from Roscommon and some from Leix and Offaly, but not a great deal. To the extent to which there is surplus turf in any place from which we can move it by any available transport, that turf is going to the place where it is required, to be distributed as the national interest and the social duty of this House and the Government will determine. Turf has already started from Mayo and Donegal for here. Turf is already going south to certain areas from Clare. Provision is being made to pick up the surplus in Roscommon, Leix and Offaly and Kerry, and it is all going to the places which otherwise would not have fuel, and it is all going to be stored until the moment of necessity.

How far is our transport system capable of dealing with it? There are 150,000 tons of turf, either available or in the process of being made immediately available, in Mayo, and I hope to see that amount reach 200,000 tons. There are 230,000 tons in Donegal, and there are 100,000 tons in Galway, of which relatively only a small amount will be available for export, but we are going through the counties one by one, and finding out what there is, over and above what is required. But take the two large amounts merely as an example, envisage the railway systems in those counties and ask yourselves how you would like to start shifting 200,000 tons over that system in a few weeks. Deputy Davin asked whether there had been any conference or consultation with the railway company, whether transport companies had been consulted on transport problems and if carrying companies had submitted any detailed plan to the Government for fuel transport, or had they been asked to do so.

The closest possible contact is maintained. It is under an organised plan and system that we are trying to use the whole of the available transport, and it is going to be very narrow and a very tight squeeze.

The turf transport is already in competition with the timber transport, and we are already being told that, to carry the quantity of home-produced fuel from these distant areas—the only places where there is a large excess— into the eastern counties will mean a sacrifice of other traffic, and that difficulty will have to be faced, but the House may take it that to the extent to which competent advice, energetic action and very receptive minds can produce the results of a sound system of transference, that is being, and will be, done. Whether we shall succeed to the full or not, I do not know, but this I do know, that to the limited capacity of the transport system and to the limit of the amount of fuel which we have, either in our own possession or on the bogs in private possession where they are prepared to release it, the problem of the eastern areas will be met upon a fair basis. I think the House will agree that it would be wrong for me at this moment, knowing that I cannot possibly carry over that system in any week the minimum amount which I shall require for consumption during the winter months, to attempt now to distribute that iron ration which it is our business to accumulate in every place in which it is required.

It is suggested, and I think it is in the mind of quite a number of people, that the order which has been made, restricting transport, has stopped the cutting of turf. One swallow does not make a summer. You may find an occasional case of that kind, but you will not find many. I know that Deputies, quite honestly misled, in my opinion, by individual examples of information, correct or otherwise, which come to them, have alleged that there is that shutting down.

When we come to the main Vote, or before the Vote, preferably, if they will give me the actual evidence within their own knowledge of the extent and reality of that, I shall deal with it. My information is that it is not so. There is a natural shortening down now of the new cutting. For instance, in the case of the main supply, while we cut 106,000 tons one week and 92,000 tons the next week, we cut only 86,000 tons last week, because the other processes, the finishing and the curing of the turf on the bog, have to be attended to. I am rather surprised, as a matter of fact, that we have been able to maintain the standard. If I were close enough to be in intimate contact with every bog I personally would have envisaged a much greater falling off in the total production. What apparently is happening is that we are still increasing the number of individuals who are cutting, and that increase in individuals is enabling us still to maintain the output which normally would have fallen.

The suggestion is that some shortage of transport has had the same effect. Never in the history of this country at this time of year was more turf in the process of internal transport. I am told that there are over 1,000 lorries, outside the railway lorries, which are working exclusively on the transport of turf. I may say that 100,000 gallons of petrol have already been provided this month for that specialised traffic. Remember, our petrol is not unlimited. We are guarding that petrol to the extent of watching both the efficiency of the individual lorries, the length of their haul and the amount of turf they are carrying for every gallon of petrol they are using. There is not an unlimited quantity, but, to the extent to which it is available, it is being fully used.

Within the whole of the turf counties there is no restriction of any sort, kind or description on the movement of turf and the only people who are beginning to squeal—and those are the people whom naturally, you will hear; human nature is human nature and they have the chance, possibly, to make a good price—are the people who want to move turf for their own purpose, for their own benefit, out of the turf areas into the non-turf areas. All the transport which is capable of moving turf out of the turf areas into the non-turf areas, I want. I want to know that all the turf that is going, is going for a national purpose, is going to be used, to be distributed, where the State and the social obligations of this country require it to be done over the winter. As soon as there is any possibility of relaxing that position, we shall only be too glad, but, in the meantime, there is nothing to prevent any man moving turf within an area of nearly two-thirds of this whole country. Why that should prevent the cutting of turf, I do not know.

The promise of the Government to buy all turf of merchantable quality at a reasonable price stands. They are prepared to buy that turf from whoever produces it, so long as it is made available. Under those circumstances why should any man stop cutting? The risk is being taken by the Government and that risk will continue to be taken until the end.

All I can say to the House is that every effort that is possible will be made (1) to get the maximum production of home-produced turf and home-produced timber between now and the end of the season; (2) that every possible use of transport will be made to transfer any surplus of that turf from the places in which it is in excess to the places in which it is needed, and (3) that all that fuel which is so transported will be regarded as something in relation to which the State has an obligation to see that the social duty of that fuel is discharged in its distribution.

Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will give me a little information. In the last debate the Taoiseach said the extra amount of turf required was between 3,000,000 and 4,000,000 tons. Is that an estimate?

That would depend entirely on an estimate of the amount of coal which was available.

I understand that that calculation was made on the basis that no domestic coal would come in.

That no domestic coal was available for a year?

For the season we are approaching.

If no domestic coal was available for the year we would require from 3,000,000 to 4,000,000 tons.

It was also said that the amount by which the Parliamentary Secretary's organisation would increase supplies was 1,000,000 tons and the Taoiseach said it would put him to the pin of his collar to do that.

It would be about that.

Then there would be available 100,000 tons of scrub wood which would be got by the Land Commission, and about the same quantity would be made available by some other organisations. What would be the equivalence between a ton of scrub wood and a ton of turf?

I would require notice of that question. I think that a ton of scrub wood would be a little better than a ton of turf.

Let us take it there would be 1,250,000 tons off the 3,000,000 or 4,000,000 tons required. The rest is to come from the hand-won turf, from people cutting turf ordinarily and increasing their output. How much, so far, has been got from these sources?

In addition to the 1,000,000 tons, we have already 100,000 tons in Mayo. That is turf that we can directly put our fingers on, and I am of the opinion that a considerably greater quantity is going to be found in other directions. I am hopeful of it.

That means about 1,350,000 tons, and we have to get 3,000,000 or 4,000,000 tons.

The visible amount is about that. How much more there is I do not know.

We have 1,350,000 tons as the visible amount, and we have to get 3,000,000 or 4,000,000 tons?

Unless we are going to have a certain amount of hardship, yes.

What are the requirements of Dublin City, on the assumption that no domestic coal will be available? What would be the requirements for six months?

I do not know.

Now that question time is over, I may indicate that my purpose in intervening in this debate is mainly to express my resentment— and I find some consolation in knowing that it is not confined to myself, but is fairly general in the House—at the attitude of the Government in withholding vital information affecting the daily lives of our citizens. On numerous occasions questions addressed to Ministers have failed to elicit any information, the excuse—and, mark you, it is nothing more than an excuse—being that it was not in the public interest to disclose such information, or otherwise it would place too great a strain on staffs to provide the information sought. There has been practically no disposition on the part of the Government to volunteer information on matters of general and vital interest. Only a few days ago, when the Minister for Supplies was replying to a question in relation to the supply, in certain cases, of anthracite in what might be termed the scheduled turf areas, I asked if it was his intention to supply anthracite to owners of cars to which a gas-producer plant had been attached.

I gathered straightway, from his reply, that the question had never as much as entered into his head, although the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defensive Measures many months ago in this House, when he made his famous speech about all the ships in the sea being sunk in relation to our standard of living here, urged and advised us to utilise our brains, saying there was a ready substitute for petrol, and cited the gas-producer plant as an example.

Now, I have not so far heard one word of encouragement, or one word of advice from the Ministerial Benches on the matter of setting up food and fuel depôts in the City of Dublin, and in other cities throughout the country. These depôts are a crying necessity, and the necessity will become much more apparent, and much more accentuated, with the approach of the winter months. Last winter there was ample evidence of the necessity for the setting up of these depôts for the supply of food and fuel for people who are not in the position to pay ordinary prices, and who, as a result of not being able to pay those prices, suffered cold and starvation to such an extent that, in some of the newly built up areas, certain social workers in the city had to install mobile food canteens to keep those people alive.

The Parliamentary Secretary gave a very comprehensive survey of the position with regard to turf. It was a very informative speech, but I must say somewhat belated. I would like to draw the attention of the House to this fact, that only a few months ago, at a meeting in the Mansion House which the Taoiseach honoured with his presence, numerous requests were made by members representing parish councils at that meeting to set up a central authority to deal with the question of turf production and turf distribution and to fix prices. What was the Taoiseach's answer? "There is a central authority, the Turf Development Board." Likewise, he threw cold water on the suggestion to fix the price of turf, although it had been advocated not only by the representatives of parish councils at the Mansion House on that occasion but by public bodies in the city, notably the Dublin Board of Assistance, which has very intimate contact, I may tell the House, with the needs and requirements of the poorer sections of the community.

My principal reason for rising to speak is to complain of the lack of willingness and readiness on the part of the Government to impart information of importance and of interest to our people generally. When the tea situation, or what I may describe as the tea crisis, started, the explanation given by the Minister was that tea supplies were being withheld by one wholesale merchant. It was pointed out to him at the time that poor people in Dublin were going from shop to shop and from street to street in their efforts to get a spoonful of tea here and there, in order to supply their families with a few cups of tea during the week. The answer of the Minister for Supplies on that occasion was that the shortage was due to the fact that one of the tea merchants had withheld supplies. Subsequently it became apparent, from a news item in one of our evening papers, that, as a result of a telephone conversation which the Minister had with, I think, some civil servant, arrangements with regard to the supply of tea to this country were off for some reason. The only reason why I refer to that point is that the House and the country are not being taken into the confidence of the Government to the extent to which they are entitled. I submit that, so long as that state of affairs exists, the Government will not get, and has no right to expect, the co-operation which they require from all sides of this House to carry on, or rather I should say to mask, to some extent, their bungling and blundering.

Sometimes, as this debate went on, I asked myself on which side was this complacency that we heard so much talk about. It appeared to me that a number of speakers on the opposite benches seem to be in a very complacent mood indeed: that in a crisis such as that which we are now facing we could be talking exactly as if we were in the piping times of peace. When the Government was being blamed for this and for that, one would think that there was no such thing going on at all as a world war; that there was no such thing going on at all as, perhaps, one of the biggest wars in history. On the very day that I heard the war was breaking out, I pointed out to our people that although we might try to keep out of this war, as we have tried, and even though we should succeed in keeping out of the war and not be attacked, nevertheless, being in the world in which we are—a world in which conflicts of that kind are bound to affect every country that is organised as we are at the present time—that, notwithstanding that we might keep out of the war we could not avoid the consequence of being shut out from the world. We are asked why we do not get this and why we do not get that. The answer, in most cases, is that there is a war on, and please remember it. We are asked why do we not bargain with this person or with that country. The answer is that if our policy does not suit those countries—if we want to remain neutral, and they want us in the war— then they are not going to bother very much about accommodating us, and, even if we were in the war, they might not be able to accommodate us. If we want to bring any reality into this whole discussion, the first thing we must remember is that there is a war on, and that we should thank heaven that, so far, we have avoided the immediate physical consequences of that war. But the other consequences are there, and will remain there, and there is nothing that any Government in this country can do that will fully save our people from those consequences.

We have heard talk about coal. One would imagine that the mining of coal lay with us, that it was we who had the resources of coal. We have to get coal from one of the belligerents, a belligerent whose Ministers say that they are not able to get coal enough for themselves. How do you think we are going to bargain and get that coal from them? They say that their whole lives are at stake, that they are doing everything in their power to get it, but that they are already short by a very considerable quantity of the amount of coal they want to get for their own needs. Do you expect that there is anything we can do to get it? Pit props, we are told, might be used as a bargaining factor. Do you think that they are so stupid on the one hand, and that we are so stupid on the other, that if there were a bargain to be made for pit props against coal it would not be done? Do you think that, if there was any other article which they wanted so badly that they were prepared to give us in exchange things which they did not want so badly and that we wanted more badly, assuming that there was goodwill, that that would not be done? Certainly, as far as we are concerned, every effort has been made by this Government to try to get from outside the things we are short of ourselves, and the shortage of which is going to mean a hardship for our people. Surely, anybody who wants to approach this subject in honesty will realise that any Government which has any interest in its people will do that, and, to start with anyhow, we should at least be given credit for that much. There will be shortages here. There will be hardships here, and our whole purpose, the purpose of every one of us if we are interested in saving our people, must be to try to mitigate those hardships to the best of our ability. Every effort that we can make, every effort on the part of every side of this House, will be necessary even slightly to mitigate some of those hardships.

The first thing we have to look out for is food. Food is a primary human necessity, and it is the first thing we have to look out for. Realising that there was a shortage of ships, realising that there was a very slight possibility of our getting in grain, the first thing we did was to try to get from our own farms a substitute grain, a substitute food for our people. Deputies on the opposite side talk as if no effort was made to look after that primary interest. Thank God, there was a Government in office who did not then for the first time think of getting food and grain from Irish soil. This year, according to the accounts—of course they are only preliminary, and have to be taken with due reserve—there will be, in addition to the acreage under cultivation last year, an increase of 25 per cent. According to those figures, there ought to be the produce of 490,000 acres of wheat. As I said, there is a 25 per cent. increase on the whole of the tillage, but that would mean a 60 per cent. increase in wheat. Was that increase got, do you think, without any Government urging? Do you think that that was got in the ordinary way? When you compare that with the 25,000 acres of wheat which were grown in this country when this Government came into office, I think, at least, it cannot be said that this Government has not tried to get, from our own resources anyway, the primary necessities. There is an increase in regard to all the corn crops, oats and barley. There is an increase in potatoes, in turnips and in mangolds. There is an increase in every crop. Will that food be sufficient? Will the wheat, for instance, be sufficient to make up for the wheat which we got abroad? We do not know what the yield will be yet. We do not know what the harvest will be yet. If the harvest is good, and the yield is good, we ought to have substitute food anyhow for the food to which we have been accustomed, but it will have to be substitute food.

If it is substitute food, if the bread is not the 70 per cent. extraction but is the 90 per cent. extraction, and if we have to eat more potatoes in substitution for bread, let us remember that we are doing that in a time of war, when other nations are starving. But the production of the food is not enough. That food has to be distributed. It would not be very much satisfaction for us to know that there was plenty of food in certain parts of the country and that other people were starving for want of food. We have the much more difficult problem of seeing that that food goes to the people who need it, that it will be properly distributed. That is a task which lies ahead, an extremely difficult task. Food then, the primary necessity, was naturally the first thing we looked to. Everything that the Government could do was done to stimulate the production of that food, and I believe that in the main we have got the results. I was looking for a total of 50 per cent. increase in all of our tillage. We have got 25 per cent. but, as I pointed out to you, we have got much ahead of the 50 per cent. in regard to wheat, the one thing of all others that we wanted most.

Another piece of reality that I should like those who want to face this situation honestly to keep before them is that we are not a socialised State. We still believe in private initiative, and our aim as a Government has been to stimulate to the utmost private enterprise and private initiative, and to confine the activities of the State as far as possible to the stimulating of that enterprise and to supplementing it where it was obviously not sufficient in the common interest. That has been our aim. Again, when we are blamed for this and for that, when we are blamed for asking the farmers to produce and for asking the turf cutters to produce, and when we are blamed because we did not do something more than that, people are thinking that they are in some socialised community where the State orders every individual, as if he were a soldier: "You go here and do that, and you go there". We are trying to work still within the general organisation of a non-socialised State in that sense, but we do realise and have realised since we came into office that the old day of complete laissez faire has gone and that we cannot depend on that.

Hear, hear.

I think even the Deputy who says "Hear, hear" to that will admit that we would have a better State if we could get full co-operation from individuals and less selfishness on the part of individuals in playing their ordinary rôle, that is, if we could get from each individual the right social sense while retaining to himself the sense of live and let live, the sense of feeling that his neighbour is his brother, whilst not killing the initiative that comes from having freedom of private enterprise.

You will encourage that?

To the utmost that we can. For instance, somebody was talking the other day about railways. If ultimately we are not able to get the railways to subserve the public interest under the present arrangement, then we will have to go on to some other one. It is desirable, however, to do the utmost that can be done to try to get them to function otherwise than as a complete State enterprise, because, mind you, if you take them over as a State enterprise you are very far away from getting rid of your difficulties. New difficulties will arise, and it is a balance, in many of the cases that we have to deal with, of one evil against another. One system goes out and another system comes in, and if you look over the whole history of the world you will find that each system had its evils and that what happened was that people tended to concentrate on the evils that existed in the system of the moment and then got on to some other system with its new evils. There is nothing perfect in this world, and that is one of the few things that you can be certain about.

With regard to these fundamental things, then, food was the first and we looked after it, and if we could solve the problem of bringing the food in and seeing that the food which is here in the country and available for the community as a whole does go to all sections of the community so that no people will go short and that everybody will have at least the minimum which is necessary for comfortable existence, then that part of our problem is solved, but I admit that only half of the necessary amount or less than half of it has been produced. Now, I think there is nothing worse for the country or for individuals in the country than to think that there is an easy way to solve the problem. There is no such easy way.

Who suggests that there is an easy way?

All I find is that whenever one talks of any difficulties here Deputies opposite think that the matter can be solved by some financial manæuvring.

Oh, they do not.

I do not think it can be done in that way. However, we are prepared to meet that suggestion in its proper place. We will probably have an opportunity of dealing with some of these things later. I think, however, that one of the things that has done a great deal of harm to thinking communities in recent times is the belief, among large sections of these communities, that there is a royal and easy way of solving their problems by some juggling with the monetary system. There is, probably, a grain of truth in the suggestion, and let us seek to get at it, if you like.

The next thing is the question of fuel. Fuel comes next, undoubtedly, in our needs. Food has to be cooked, and although we should probably be able to get on somehow with food of one kind or another without cooking, still we all know very well that food, to be made really available, has to be cooked, and we have got to get fuel to cook it. We have also to get fuel in order to keep ourselves warm. Therefore, next to the primary necessity of food, comes the question of fuel. Now, as I said at the start, we cannot command coal from outside. We get not merely coal but a number of other things from Britain, and if these things are short in Britain we are not going to get them. If we were short of certain commodities here, I expect that our people would not give them either. We might bargain for a thing of which we were short by giving something of which we were less short, but we cannot expect to get these things and, in fact, we have not been getting them in anything like the quantity that was arranged, or expected to be got, since the beginning of the year. We are cut off, if that word will be more suitable than the word "blockade"—we are being cut off by this war from our natural sources of supply, and we have to realise that, every time that we come to think about our present position.

We cannot, then, expect to get coal. We may get it, and if we do there is no doubt whatever that we can make good use of it, but we should not go on the assumption that we are going to get it. When people have asked what do you expect to get, I myself, at any rate, have always said that I would go on the basis that we are going to get none, that if we get some it will not be useless, but will be of value, and that we shall try to do our utmost to get all we can. Conditions being what they are, however, we cannot depend upon getting it in from outside and, therefore, let us, with all possible speed, get the alternative to coal. Deputy McGilligan suggested that it was only on the 25th June, when the season had passed and so on, that it occurred to the Government that we should go after the alternative to coal, namely, turf. Of course, that is completely and absolutely wrong.

I do not know if the Parliamentary Secretary mentioned it to-day—I think he did—but I know that about the 25th March, the Parliamentary Secretary was put in the position of co-ordinating —there was no publicity about it at the time—the activities of the various Departments which, according to the Ministers and Secretaries Act, or some other legal basis such as that, had responsibilities of one kind or another for turf. The various Ministers—the Minister for Local Government, because the county surveyors came into the business, and the Minister for Industry and Commerce from the point of view of responsibility for the Turf Development Board—these Ministries and Departments immediately co-operated with the Parliamentary Secretary to try to work out a campaign for increasing our supplies of turf.

He has told you what have been the results of his work, but that work has been going on since 25th March at least, and it must have been before that date that the proposal came to me—I think it was from the Parliamentary Secretary himself—that the organisation which he had been using, the organisation of the county surveyors which he had been using in connection with local relief works and other schemes, should be used to try to get, in the first place, all the turf that would be required for the county and other public institutions in each county, and then, having got that much, which would relieve so much the condition of the poor, they would try to cut as much turf as they could afterwards. Now, the various orders, and so on, that came out after that were merely for the purpose of making good a situation that already existed. The organisation was already in being, and the issuing of these various orders was only to get rid of certain legal difficulties. Therefore, it is all nonsense to say that it was only on the 25th June or some other date in June that the Parliamentary Secretary was put in a position to carry on this organised campaign. He had been carrying it on since the 25th March, and he had been considering the possibilities before that date. The Parliamentary Secretary has told you the results of that campaign. At best, it will be responsible, probably, for the cutting of from 1,000,000 to 1,500,000 tons of turf. That will be used for what I might call national purposes—public institutions and so on.

Now, notwithstanding all that Deputy Brennan said about my not being from a bog area, on a former occasion, and knowing nothing about it, when I suggested that we should naturally expect to get the biggest addition from those who had cut turf already, I pointed out that there had been some 3,800,000 tons of turf cut for domestic purposes by farmers and others throughout the country, and that that was an organisation comparable, in the case of fuel, to the organisation of the farmers in the case of the production of food, and that just as anything extra we might do by way of parish councils or by way of plots would be relatively a small addition—valuable though it is, and not to be despised by any means, and a policy which we should endeavour to pursue —nevertheless, in bulk, it would be a very small proportion of the increase which we could get from the organised industry of the farmers who had been producing food in the past.

When we want a substantial addition to our food supplies we have to ask the farmers to produce the food. In the same way, if we got a real national effort in that direction—I am not depreciating the work that has been done or making little in the slightest of the 1,500,000 tons got by direct State effort—the best way to get an increase of turf production is to get the farmers to realise that just as in the case of wheat they went out and got a cash crop, so they would be getting a cash crop in this case. I even asked that they should go short in their own consumption of turf, that they should, as is done in many parts of the country, cut down old trees not good for any other purpose, make use of them as fuel, and make the turf available for sale. There is no doubt that there is a substantial increase in the amount of turf that has been cut by the farmers. It has been stated that a farmer does not usually cut turf for sale. Very well, let him set himself to do it, and let him get a good price. If the farmer gets a comparable price, why should he not sell the turf as a cash crop, just as he would sell wheat or barley?

Mr. Brennan

It is a physical impossibility for him.

It is not. I have gone into the question and common sense tells me that it is not a physical impossibility. We all know that when a special effort has to be made, it can be made. I was brought up in the country and I know well what efforts can be made to save hay in a bad season if you get a fine day. The same thing can be done in this matter if you go out for it and make a proper effort. Human beings do not normally work at a feverish pace, but you can get them to do it in a time of crisis. Now you are in a crisis and you can expect from human beings a greater effort; you can expect them to work longer hours for a short period. I believe that, if we could transport it, we would get as much turf from those who have cut it normally year after year, if we could take it from them and give them a reasonable price for it, as the Parliamentary Secretary has been able to get by a direct State effort.

Now, I come to the real snag in this whole matter. The real snag is not that there will not be sufficient fuel in this country for the needs of our people. There will be sufficient fuel for the needs of our people, but the problem is to transport it where it is most wanted. Will anybody tell me that the turf areas in this country will not have more fuel than they will need if there is a means of purchasing it and taking it away? We know that people may go somewhat short of certain things. If they are to sell that turf, they have to get a good price. At the end of the season there will be sufficient fuel in this country for our needs—that I am certain of—but, unfortunately, it will not be where it is wanted most. Where it is wanted most and where there will be a severe shortage, I am afraid, despite anything that can be done, is in this city and in the eastern counties. The Parliamentary Secretary has told you what he is doing to get the turf where it is available into those eastern counties. But the fact is that there is not sufficient transport available. There will not be sufficient transport available to transport into this city, apart altogether from any other difficulties which there may be, like storage accommodation and so on, although everything possible will be done, to take the quantity of turf that will be necessary and which will be available in some parts of the country. In the same way as there will be sufficient food available in this country for our people, if it can be brought to them, so I believe there will be sufficient turf available in the sense of being there, but not available in the sense of being at the particular point where it will be needed.

Is transport being organised for the purpose?

Everything that it is possible to do is being done.

Has further use of the canals been considered?

If Deputies could get the figures they would see that it is almost infinitesimal compared with the amount required. The rolling stock is not there. Worst of all, we have not got, and are not likely to get, the petrol supplies to enable us to use all the lorries and the other transport vehicles that are available. That is the problem, in my opinion. I have urged that matter as strongly as I could upon the Parliamentary Secretary, and I know he has organised his headquarters office in a certain way. There is one engineer in charge of this whole transport question. I was speaking to him on the telephone a night or two ago and he is doing everything he can do in concert with the various transport organisations to get the maximum amount available so as to transport the turf to those eastern counties where the shortage will be. I was here for the greater portion of the Parliamentary Secretary's speech and he pointed out that we may have to cut down transport for other things that may be important in order to get the use of the transport for the turf supplies.

From what I have said I think it will be clear, or should be clear, to anybody who wants to see the truth that it is not right to say the Government have been ignoring these problems. Everything that is possible is being done. But no amount of thinking will add a cubit to your stature, no amount of thinking or planning will, say, bring the earth a million miles nearer to the sun than it is, or bring the moon a little bit nearer to us.

The planning should have been done one and a half years ago.

Things were planned as far ahead as it was possible to plan them. It is all very well for Deputies now to look back on things that have happened. We were supposed to foresee the collapse of France and the other things which have happened in this war. We were supposed to foresee all the transport problems that would arise. We were not put in here as prophets able to foretell everything.

You were.

We were not. We were put in here as people able to use ordinary foresight and I believe that the judgement will be favourable when it is ended.

Transport was a problem in 1938.

During this eight hours' debate the Taoiseach did not interrupt once.

That is a commendation I do not generally deserve; I am glad that I deserved it this time. However, the fact is that the Government did look ahead. But we cannot save this country from all the consequences of a world war which is raging around us. The Minister for Supplies has been attacked constantly in this House and I think it is a disgrace. I do think that the attacks made on him were a disgrace.

That is a new line of Parliamentary procedure.

I think that the attacks were unjustified and most unfair. The Minister for Supplies was put in a position in which he had to look ahead. As I told the House on a previous occasion and as he himself announced, nearly a year before the war started everything that could be done to induce firms to lay in stores of stocks was done. Remember, we are not a socialist State. Financial questions were involved and were largely met, but the financial difficulties were not the real difficulties. If the State itself were to enter into that business in advance, if we had attempted to do it, I know the remarks that would be made on the Opposition Benches. I have not forgotten what was said when we were trying to get ahead of time in dealing with what was called the black-out, when we were trying to look ahead with regard to air raid precautions. We were dealing with a public that would not be convinced that there was any real danger ahead, and we were dealing with Deputies who voiced that opinion here, and it is all very well to say now that the Government, a year before the war began, should have had in big stocks of newsprint, of timber, of coal and so on. Certain stocks were laid in, but we have passed through very nearly two years of war and, although there has been some hardship, if we bear in mind that there is a war on, who is going to say that this country has suffered anything like the hardships that are generally associated with war? We have not suffered these hardships, but we are beginning to feel them. We will feel them next winter, and we will feel them if the war continues, but for what length of time ahead are you to lay in reserve stocks?

The position with regard to wheat was pointed out. The situation as it developed in regard to Britain's own position was something which nobody could foresee. It is all very well now, after two years, to look back and to say: "You should have made provision for all these things in advance". Reasonable provision, in so far as it was possible to make it, was made in cases where the State itself had to do it, in the way of planning and so on, and the State had to depend on private enterprise in regard to many other supplies, which the Minister did his best to get. It is most unfair to blame the Minister at this moment because he was not able to foresee, and force other people to foresee, all the changes that were going to come about as a result of two years of this war. The Minister for Supplies was chosen for this job—the most difficult that could have been given to any of the Ministers at a time like this—because he had proved himself, over a number of years, to be a man who had the energy to put it through and the ability to plan. My own belief to this hour is that he has done better than anybody picked from any side of this House to do it would have done. He was the white-haired boy, not merely with Deputies on the opposite benches, but with the whole country, until last December, and then, because something happened over which he had, and could have, no control, he becomes responsible for all the evils which have fallen on this country as a result of the war. As I said, I think it most unfair, and I do not believe that the people of the country, who look at the thing properly, will accept as justified the criticisms passed either in this debate or in other debates.

That brings me to another matter. Usually, on this Estimate, larger questions of Government policy are debated, and I have tried to deal with the larger questions which affect us here. Deputy McGilligan, however, came in here a short while ago and delivered a speech which he had three days' opportunity to deliver, if he wanted to deliver it, namely, a speech on supplies, when each particular point he raised could have been answered, but he chooses to come in here and raise it on this Estimate because, I suppose, it suited his convenience to do so at this particular time. We have not been accustomed, however, to expect the head of the Government—the Taoiseach or the President, as he was at another time—to deal with details of administration.

We have a constitutional system here which is known to every Deputy. That system is that a member of the Government has, in a sense, a dual capacity. As a member of the Government, he is collectively responsible with his colleagues for the whole of Government policy, and, as head of a Department, he is answerable, directly, immediately and personally in this House. I am blamed, on the one hand, whenever it suits, for being unduly interfering, for holding up Ministers and for preventing them from doing their work, and I am told, on the other hand, that I do not exercise enough pressure. My own belief is that over a period of years I have acted as head of the Government in the only way in which the head of the Government can act, and in which constitutionally he is expected to act.

The head of the Government is the captain of a team, and his principal work is to try to get co-ordinated effort from the team as a whole, to see that the members of the Government are not simply isolated individuals carrying on independently one of the other, but that they work together as a team, carrying out the main points of Government policy. I believe that has been done, and that the individual liberty which is necessary for good work has not been in the slightest encroached upon by me as head of the Government. The head of a Government, if we lived in a less complex society, might very well be regarded as being in the position described by an English Prime Minister, who, writing on the matter, said that if he were a perfect Prime Minister, he would be a sort of senior partner in every Department. Sir Robert Peel, I think, was held out as the great example of a Prime Minister who was such a partner, but all who have written on the subject since realise that with the development of society and with new complex tasks devolving upon a Government, that became quite impossible for any individual in modern times. Such a man could not be a senior partner in every Department. It would be ideal if he were; it would be ideal, if it were possible for the head of the Government to know the intimate details of every Department, and if he were wise enough to put the knowledge to proper use and not to interfere, and prevent a person from having a due sense of responsibility to his own Department. It would be splendid to have that knowledge, if he were wise enough to use it properly, but the fact is that he cannot get that detailed knowledge. Even the Minister himself cannot get a detailed knowledge, down to the farthest limits, of all the complicated machinery by which Government activities are carried out. It is quite impossible to do so. It is his business to try to get down to it as much as possible, and to use every opportunity that comes his way to act as a general director, a general inspector, a general supervisor, and to see that his Department is run properly, but it taxes a Minister more than I think any human being should be taxed to do that fully in every Department.

Take the Department of Industry and Commerce. My own belief was that it was always too large and too wide for a single Minister, with all the social services added to it, to handle, but if that is so for a Minister in a single Department, how quite impossible is it for the head of the Government to have that intimate knowledge of administration, and it is not expected of him. It is not so intended in the Government and, unless he were a superman, he would be a fool to try to have it. What I try to do, and what I think is my Constitutional duty to do, is to co-ordinate the activities of the team. If there is some special problem of wide interest—it may be a problem of turf, involving the Department of Industry and Commerce or the Department of Local Government; it may be a problem of general food, involving the Department of Agriculture, or it may be a problem relating to supplies, involving the Department of Supplies —I am naturally consulted and informed about them, particularly if they are matters coming ultimately before the Government for decision. I am naturally informed of these matters, and I generally give my view in advance. It is well known that if the Minister of a particular Department and the head of the Government agree on a particular line of policy, it is much more likely to pass through the Government as a whole, and get the acceptance of the Government as a whole, than it would be if the head of the Government, from some general point of view, took one line and the Minister took another. Also, if there is a difference, as there sometimes would be, between the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Minister for Agriculture on something which would affect, for instance, the price of bread, I may have to try to get a balance between the natural desires of the Ministers to do the best from their own particular standpoint. As head of the Government, I might try to find a balance between them, to find a via media by which to reconcile the different views. Obviously, you save Government time if you get these views co-ordinated, if the two Ministers in question have not to argue out their differences before a Government meeting, and if they have in advance agreed upon a proposal. If the head of the Government agrees, you are going to get your work done more smoothly and more effectively. But, if that is the sort of work that is done, why should it be suggested that I am interfering with members of the Government, or that members of the Government cannot do this or that without getting my prior permission? It is simply not true, and I believe it is known not to be true by the people who state it here. It would be foolish, foolish in the extreme, on my part if I attempted to do it, because I would become a bottle-neck, having too much work, and I would be holding up other Departments from doing their work.

I could not possibly handle all the business that would come my way if I were to adopt an attitude like that.

Another thing I have heard—as we are talking about Ministers and the head of the Government and their relations—is the suggestion that Ministers are not doing their work. I deny that. I think there is nothing so absurd as to suggest that because a Minister goes to a football match or to play a game of golf he is neglecting his work. I do not happen to do these things myself, but that is not because I would not feel I had a perfect right to do so if I were so inclined. Or to go to races, if I were so inclined. I see no reason why a Minister, provided he does not neglect his work, should not get the ordinary recreation which is necessary for him if he is to do his work well. He needs recreation, just like other people, if he is not going to be stale and find it difficult to do his work properly. It is not always those who are sitting constantly at their desk who do the most work. The ability to do work quickly, the ability to think clearly, are important. There is the old story of all work and no play making Jack a dull boy. That holds for more than boys. It holds for grownup men, too. I think this whole thing is simply a part of a political campaign. Of course, it is natural to expect that the people on the opposite benches think there is only one remedy for all the ills of this country—that is to put them sitting in these benches here. There would be a new Heaven and a new earth if that were only done. That is naturally their view. It is for the people to judge in that regard between us, and we are quite willing to let that judgment take place.

Deputy Mulcahy this evening spoke in anticipation—again it was a thing which could very well have been kept over for another stage—about the holding of local elections. Are we really serious? Do we really understand that there is a war about us, and do we understand that if we did have these elections we would only have about a 25 per cent. vote and that if we did have that vote it would be unrepresentative because, in the main, it would be likely to be an urban vote? At any rate, is this the time, when there are problems of that sort, that we should go out, unnecessarily, holding these elections? I believe that we should, if at all possible, carry on our life as best we can but to my thinking, if we have to have elections for that purpose, then it would be better to have a general election. That is, if there is a question as to what is the feeling of the country with regard to Government and Government policy, let us have it out, but do not let us have a partial election which would be capable of all sorts of misrepresentation, which is a wrong type of election to have at present. I am only talking about this because it has been referred to in the debate. If the managerial system is put through then I think we will be able to mitigate many of the disadvantages that would come from a stale council.

What has the holding of local elections in the normal way to do with Government policy?

Of course, the Deputy is not so foolish as not to know that you could not hold these elections without political malice coming in. It would be quite impossible. The Deputy knows it.

I do not agree at all.

The Deputy may not agree, but the fact is that if you are going to have these elections you are going to have present-day politics brought into it, and the next thing would be the whole question about Government policy in every direction. You know it cannot be stopped and we are simply in a dream world if we think it can. It has never been possible, up to the present, since this State was established to have local elections without having national politics brought into it. If we are going to have disturbance, if we are going to have it at all, let us have it in a straightforward way. It was a national, not a local election, surely, that was held in Sweden and held, probably, because the Government at the time wanted to establish with certainty its authority. If, to-morrow, the question of the authority of the Government here to speak for the Irish people were involved, no matter what might be concerned with it, I would believe in having elections, because no Government can carry a country through a crisis like this unless it is quite clear that it does speak for the people as a whole. I believe we do, and if there was the slightest doubt about it, dangerous though it would be, regrettable though it would be, I believe it would be the lesser of two evils to have a general election because whatever Government is here in office during this crisis will require to have behind it the greatest certainty of authority. I believe we have. We are not a stale Government. We have heard people talking about Ministers being stale. We have had a large number of elections in our time in office. The last election was only three years ago, so that this is by no means a stale Government. I do not believe, notwithstanding all the effort that is made to try to make it so, I do not think any one of the Ministers in any way is stale with regard to his activities towards his duties in his office—not by any means. However, I only dealt with that because these matters have been raised in debate.

Coming back to the major issues, the third big problem which has to be faced is the problem of unemployment. I have spoken of food. I have spoken of fuel. The next big question is the problem of unemployment. That problem in this crisis is going to have features quite different from the features of the unemployment problem we have had to deal with up to the present. My own view is that we can get manual work or should be able to get it, if we work hard enough for all who are prepared to work. In the country, there is no doubt about it, the getting of food, the getting of fuel, presents us with an opportunity for employment for all rural workers. The question of fuel is not merely the question this year or the coming year of actually cutting and saving turf. There is the whole question of the preparation of the bogs in advance. The moment the turf cutting season ends the whole problem of the development of the bogs for the coming year will have to be taken in hands. There is employment there of a profitable kind where one is exchanging service with other members of the community. The opportunity of service is there for all those prepared to avail of it. Of course, they must be prepared to give their services on reasonable conditions. The other day I heard one of the Deputies, on the Labour Benches, I think, talking about the conditions of foresters, who were objecting because some of the Construction Corps appeared to be getting a much higher wage. Now, on the other hand, we are abused here because we have young men in the Construction Corps and they are not getting, we are told, a fair amount. An estimate of 38/6 per week has been given to me as the amount being given to a young man in the Construction Corps, taking into account cash, food, clothes, and so on. I am not accepting that figure, but it was a figure mentioned as that against which the foresters complained. You cannot have it both ways: you cannot have a wage which is on the one hand an agricultural wage in the country and which on the other hand, even when it is exceeded, is not enough for young men brought into the Construction Corps.

In the Construction Corps, we have been trying to provide an opportunity for young people supposed to be without dependents and who cannot be brought into work in the ordinary way. There was no other machinery by which we could build up such a corps. The quickest and most ready machinery was to attach them to the army, and we were able to do that by Ministerial order. I hope the corps will develop. If it does, we may be able to devise an entirely separate corps. You need experienced people accustomed to carrying on this work, as young men cannot be left altogether without some discipline. We will have trained and put in charge men who will be able to approach their task from a proper social point of view. They will deal with the young people in a fatherly way, and the men will work together in a brotherly spirit. I believe this is a very useful experiment and that it will develop to the point where we can say to young men in the cities and towns: "Look here, you have no work: come along into the Construction Corps and you will be kept at least in good physical condition and you will cease being a burden on anybody". That is the proper line to take. Nobody anxious for a solution for the difficult problem of unemployment should raise his voice against this. By all means, if we can improve it, all constructive criticism should be welcome. As far as we can, we will keep an open mind, in order to get constructive criticism and we will accept it wherever it will improve the position.

Every Department is experiencing a shortage of staff. There have been suggestions of a break-down—I think Deputy Mulcahy spoke of the breakdown in Departments. There is no doubt that Departments in the ordinary way were greatly disorganised as a result of this war. We have had to get new Departments, like the Department of Supplies. Some of the best officers of the Department of Industry and Commerce and of other Departments were taken over to staff the Department of Supplies, as you could not take in outsiders and put them into positions where you need people with experience of administration. Similarly we had to provide a staff for a new activity, in connection with censorship. One could not get a staff from outside for that, as experienced officers are necessary. Then we had to take staff from the Department of Lands, for instance, for the Department of Agriculture, in order to give the Minister for Agriculture the staff he needed for the special drive in regard to production. In the case of turf, too, we must take a number of officers from the Department of Local Government. Therefore it cannot be expected that all these Departments will function with the same regularity and efficiency when many of the principal officers have been taken away from their normal activities. Everything that is possible is being done with the new staff. Careful consideration is being given to each matter, and nothing is being done in a haphazard way.

On the question of manual labour, such labourers generally should be able to get employment on land reclamation schemes, in bog drainage, and so on. The Government has accepted in the main the Drainage Commission Report. With regard to town labour, unfortunately although there is work in the country for town hands, they have not proved anything as efficient or valuable as rural people in the main, and that is natural enough, as it is not their usual manner of life. That has occurred, for instance, in the case of turf where they might have been put to the ancillary or auxiliary processes of footing and spreading turf.

There is also the big problem of transporting workers. If we are bringing turf from Mayo when there are turf bogs in the Midlands, we have difficulty in transport and it may be easier to transport the men and cut the turf in the Midland bogs so that there would be a shorter haul to Dublin. In such a case, however, there is the problem of accommodation for the men who would be required in the Midland bogs. Besides the transport difficulty in regard to town workers, they do not do as well in agricultural or rural work, in the main, as the people who have grown up in that type of labour. We must, therefore, for the towns and cities get work going of a different type, and everything that we can do within the limits of the materials available to provide work in that way will be done.

The outstanding problem for which I must honestly confess I can see no adequate solution is the problem of workers who have been in industries which have had to close down for want of raw materials. Clerks and others who have been employed in those industries may have been accustomed to big weekly wages and, accordingly, may have adapted their whole manner of living to that wage standard. That is a desperate problem and we must see what is best to do with it. If all goes to all, we may have to provide them with the means to get the food and shelter they need. To provide them with alternative employment of a productive kind is, I think, almost out of the question. At present, I see no light for a solution of that particular problem.

We are told that some of those unemployed are going across to Britain to seek work. Probably that is true: in fact, I am sure it is true in a number of cases, but there are people going to Britain for higher wages who could, in fact, live here. Recently, we had the case of the usual migratory labourer from the West of Ireland. Many of these could have obtained employment at turf cutting not far from their own particular areas, but in the past they had so organised their lives that this formed part of their normal work.

Unless we were to act towards one section of the community differently from the way in which we were acting towards other sections, we could not prevent that. The time may come when, owing to the need of labour to provide essentials here, we may have to bring in a scheme of that sort but we cannot do that for one section of the community only. If the time comes when we shall have to compel labour to remain here, though it wants to go outside, because there is essential work to be done, we shall have advanced to a new phase. People leave the country who are not forced to do so by want of reasonable employment here— employment such as other people are quite content to have. You will have people leaving because they are attracted by high wages or something of that kind. Deputy Cogan referred to-day to a farmer's son who was not forced to leave the country but who did so because he wanted to go across to Britain. There are cases of that kind, but there are also cases such as those of which Deputy Hickey spoke. There is no doubt that we have those cases.

And they are the best workers.

I admit that. If we could do anything here to provide alternative employment, it would be well. I know that Deputy Hickey does not want me to put an obstacle in the way of these men leaving the country. He merely wants to provide that they shall not be forced by unemployment to do so. As I mentioned the word "forced," it is quite wrong to say that people are being forced to leave the country. There was an alternative mentioned here—the Construction Corps. We do not say to people: "There is work in Britain; if you do not go to Britain, you will lose your unemployment assistance." There is no such compulsion. Our action simply is that we have not prohibition. I admit that we have not been able to provide alternative employment. Let us be truthful about the matter and not exaggerate and we shall all see with a common eye.

Nobody suggested that there was compulsion in that way.

It was suggested in one of the debates. It was brought up in connection with the Construction Corps. It is true that unemployment assistance is not given to a person who refuses to join the Construction Corps, but that was not the result of Government action. That was the result of a decision by the referee. If a young man without dependents, who is not able to get work, is given an opportunity to go into the Construction Corps, and refuses to do so, I think he is not doing his duty to the community and the community have no reason to look after him.

Is not that conscription?

The Taoiseach should think of that a little more deeply.

We shall see about that. I am speaking of a young man without dependents. He is offered a position which the foresters down the country regard, I understand, as being better than their own. He receives food and clothing and lives under reasonably good conditions. I went down to see those conditions for myself and I believe that a young man in that Corps does receive a really good training.

Take away the military aspect of it and put him under civil control.

I told the Deputy that this was done in this particular way as an experiment, because there was no other code of discipline immediately available. It was a question of spending a long time waiting for Departments to work out some other code. If it is possible to get good results from another system, when we have the time to do it, we shall be only too happy to do it. It was done in this way because there was a code of discipline immediately available and there were people who could work in accordance with that code.

It was hardly fair to a lot of those young fellows——

It was fair. I have given a certain amount of thought to this matter. I do not say that I would not change my view if good arguments were put before me but my own opinion is—very definitely—that if a young man is going about the streets without employment and without dependents and if I say to him, "There is a position in which you can get 7/- a week pocket money, in addition to being fed and clothed, and £10 at the end of the year to fit you out for occupation", the State is doing its duty towards that man. If he refused to take that and if the matter came to me for decision—it did not come to me because it was decided in accordance with the law independently of me—I should say that the State was doing its duty by that young man in giving him that opportunity. I should say, "We are not in a position to do more for you because many members of the community who will be contributing to your upkeep will not be in as good position as you will be".

Suppose that man said, "I will do any work if you do not ask me to wear a military uniform when other young men are not asked to do so?"

In this life, we cannot all do the very thing we ourselves want to do. Everyone of us, by circumstances, is forced to do something he dislikes. As part of my work, I have to sit here and listen to a whole lot of things and I assure you it is not pleasant. I do it because it is my duty and, however I dislike it, I have got to lump it. The same thing applies to this young man. Under present conditions, I think that the State has done its duty by that man in making that offer and, if I were looking out to even up conditions in the community, I would say, "You can look after yourself. Let me turn now to others who want help more than you do". Once we provide that opportunity for that particular class, we have done our duty towards them and our attention, at the present time, should be concentrated on people for whom we have not done as much as we conceive it to be the duty of the State to do.

As I have said, we have three great problems. We have the problem of food. I have told you what hopes we have in that regard. We have the problem of fuel. I have told you how far we have got and the difficulties that lie ahead. I do not say that, passing through the winter, it will not be possible for Deputies on these benches and on the other benches to say that this and that hardship still exists. It will, despite anything we can do. All I can say in defence is that nobody will be more critical of what we have done and fail to do than the members of the Government themselves. But we shall do our best and we expect to get all the help possible from other members of the House. Food, fuel and unemployment are the three great problems. I am more distressed regarding the fuel problem and the sections now becoming unemployed than I am in regard to any of our other problems, leaving aside the big problem of keeping ourselves in the best possible position to defend ourselves. What is most important in defence is that, should we be attacked here, a united people will face the position.

So we shall.

That is all I want to say, that we do not do anything that will prevent our meeting whatever position arises as a united people. If we meet it as a united people, we may be able to surmount it. If we do not meet it as a united people, so surely will all the things that we have worked for in the past pass away from us. The biggest thing, the most important thing, is to ensure that the people will face such a crisis as a united people. If we can work together and face it in that particular way, whatever the consequences may be, I believe we shall ultimately win through. If we face it as a divided people, we are bound to be ruined.

As a sort of anti-climax, we come now to a matter that was raised by Deputy Dillon as an indication of my interference in a place where, he suggested, I had no business to interfere. There have been, as everybody knows —I am sure it has been regretted by many people and I want to say at the outset that nobody regrets it more than I—two resignations from the Institute for Advanced Studies. Deputy Dillon gave a completely distorted picture of the whole position. There was hardly a single item in which he was accurate and, in matters of this sort, accuracy is important. He said that he did not want to injure the institute in any way. I take it that he will believe me when I say that I do not want to injure the institute, and that everything I could do to protect it from being injured was done by me. It is suggested, as I say, that I quite wantonly interfered in something that did not concern me. If the Deputy had taken the trouble of looking up the Act under which the institute was founded, or of looking at the orders that were made in pursuance of that Act, he would realise at once that there was a statutory duty on the Minister for Education to approve of any appointments that were proposed to the academic staff. He spoke of the council. The council had nothing to do with this. He spoke of members of the council by name who had nothing to do with it. The Deputy might have looked up the Act unless he wanted to make this simply an occasion for the basis of an attack on the Government. I am quite willing to admit, the resignations having taken place, that it was natural that members of the Dáil should like to get an explanation. At the same time the Deputy should, I think, before he committed himself to the statements which he made, at least have looked up the Act and seen what were the functions of the Minister for Education. The Minister for Education, naturally, in matters of that sort would have asked my information in relation to the institute. I had been Minister for Education at the time the Act was put through. I expressed the ideas of the Government in putting it through. It was very natural therefore that the Minister, on being asked about the appointment, particularly as I had been consulted already before it came to his Department—I had been consulted by the chairman, and as a result of conversations I had spoken to some of the professors——

The chairman of what?

The chairman of the governing body of the Institute of Celtic Studies. If you look at the Act you will see that the procedure is that when there is a proposal to appoint a person to an academic post, other than that of the senior professor, the proposal is sent forward to the Minister for Education for his approval. There is a statutory obligation to do that. Surely it is not suggested that the approval of the Minister should be automatic? If that were to be the intention, what was the provision put in the Act at all for? It is suggested that the Minister, exercising the statutory right which he had, was somehow doing something which was contrary to the contract under which those men took their positions under the Act. They were supplied with copies of the Act and copies of the order. Again, the fact that they realised what the Minister's functions were was borne out by the communication to the Minister for Education asking for his approval to a certain appointment. It was the duty of the Minister to satisfy himself before giving his approval that things were in accordance with the general intention. He consulted me on the matter; we spoke about it, and his views coincided with mine. The view that was expressed by the Minister in his official communication was that he did not approve of a permanent appointment at that time. The question was whether there should be a permanent appointment made in this particular case or not. The view we took, and the view which I had previously expressed—as anybody looking at the Debates at the time will see— was that we should be very careful, particularly in the opening years, about any permanent appointment in any of the schools. If we are going to have permanent appointments, let us make certain that we have got those of the class that you want to have in a school of Celtic studies.

It was quite possible to have a temporary appointment. It was suggested that as the particular young man who was a candidate for this post was already in a teaching position, everything would be done to make it possible for him to relinquish his post for a couple of years, so that he could go back to his original position if he were found unsuitable for the new post. He would not take it under these conditions. He said that he was giving up his post, and that he wanted to have a permanent appointment. It is true that the appointment would be subject to a period of probation.

Everybody who has any experience knows — and this was a matter in which our experience, the experience of the Minister for Education and my own experience, was as good as that of anybody else—that if you take a man out of a fixed position and put him into another position; if you say to him that he has to go through a period of probation and if at the end of the probation you say that you will not appoint him permanently, he can say to you: "Did you not take me out of a permanent position; are you going to throw me out on the street now?" We did not want to be put into that position. We therefore could not approve of a permanent appointment and I hold that there were reasonable and good grounds for not agreeing to it. This man, if he wanted the appointment could have been taken over in a temporary capacity. He could have been seconded from the other school until there was an opportunity of testing him to ascertain whether he had the makings of a scholar. We felt, and I think most people will agree, that it was too soon to make appointments of the junior class. It would be better to wait for some years, because if a person were appointed who proved to be unsuitable, you would have that person as a passenger perhaps for the rest of his life.

I do not think that fundamentally it was the Government's decision that was responsible for the resignations because I knew already that the question of resignations had been mooted before that. The fact is that there was a strong difference of opinion between two principal authorities on whom we would rely from the expert point of view. There was a difference of opinion between two of them with regard to the appointment. It was suggested that there was a matter of principle involved in the last letter. If it had only been a question of the appointment it would have been approached in a different way. I can assure the House that everything I could do—and I was personally brought into it by being approached in the early stages by the chairman—to prevent this situation from developing I did.

Now, if there is a difference of opinion, and you have to take a decision, it may appear that you are deciding on the one side or on the other. Another thing suggested by the Deputy, and which is also wrong, was that I did not care a hoot for any professor's opinion. That is not true. I am not on record as having said that either in conversation or in the course of correspondence. What I did say was that the decision with regard to the permanency or non-permanency of the appointment was taken by us on a certain principle. We were not taking sides in the dispute and, quite irrespective of the views held on the different sides, if it came to us as an unanimous recommendation, we would still have been opposed to it, on the grounds that we did not think a permanent appointment should be made at this stage.

In this case the only difficulty was that the particular person was not prepared to take it on a temporary basis. I felt that if he were appointed on the other basis there would be no option at the end of the time but to hold him. That is a matter in which I hold that we are probably much more experienced than even the members of the governing body, and I do not think the members of the governing body took it ill, unless they took the view that the statute was meant not to apply and the provision about the approval of the Minister was to be purely automatic.

In the Seanad I resisted a motion to delete that, which shows very definitely the view that was held at the very passing of the Act. I have a statement here showing exactly the view. I said, first of all, that I resisted the amendment to take that out and I hoped the governing body of the council would be most particular as to the persons whose services they would avail of as assistants in the earlier years, so that it would be known that nobody but a person who is really first-class, who has proved himself a capable scholar in the proper sense of the word, would be allowed into the institute. It was simply in accordance with that, and not through any desire to interfere in the working of the institute, that myself or the Minister for Education or the Government, which had ultimately to decide, arranged to forward the resignations which had been received to the President.

Does the Taoiseach consider himself or the members of the council best qualified to judge whether a man is that type of scholar envisaged in the paragraph of the Taoiseach's speech which he has just read out as having been made in the Seanad when the Advanced Studies Bill was passing through?

I would say there were two persons outstanding whose view on that I would take, two of the principal people whose views would have been accepted by me; but, unfortunately, they differed amongst themselves and held strongly, not lightly, opposing opinions. There would have been no question of the appointment being made permanent were it not for the fact that the candidate, or the person himself—I do not like to call him a candidate, because I believe he was approached to do it—had said: "I will not take it temporarily; if you want me, you will have to put me into this other position." I felt the only test which they would like to have was not going to get the ghost of a chance. We all know what would happen if, at the end of two years, it was felt he was not suitable. He would be always in a position to state: "I was in a permanent appointment. Are you going to throw me out now?" I considered that it would put them in a false position at the end of the time.

I hope no one will take me as in any way passing judgment on the abilities of this young man. I do not know him. I have never met him. I want to end the whole thing when I say this. There was a suggestion made by the Deputy—it was the one I resented most—that what we were trying to do was to pack that place with political hacks.

On the contrary, no such suggestion was present. Quite conceivably my words might have made that impression on the Taoiseach's mind, but what I said was that either the council made these academic appointments or a political Government would make them and, if it became the practice for a political Government to make them, ultimately that place would become a repository for political crocks.

The Deputy should know that no Government could make the appointments.

They ought not to.

The only thing it is possible for the Government to do is to make the appointment of the senior professor. That is there as a part of their duty, to appoint the senior professors. They would have to do that, just as they would appoint judges, in the full light of day. That was reserved as a duty and an obligation, as a privilege if you like, of the Government; but the Government are confined in every other case to a question of approval. They cannot initiate anybody. I cannot see how a refusal to approve could possibly enable a Minister to pack the place with political hacks.

Why not, if you refuse to approve anybody unless the man you want?

You could not do that. What body of men would put up with a situation like that? I say to any person who suggests this body is not being treated properly, that there is the Act and there is the order. They got copies of the Act and the order when they were asked to take office. They took office under those circumstances and I suggest they had no complaint if, in the exercise of statutory rights, the Minister and the Government exercised their right to approve. Otherwise, you are going to give money without any possibility of satisfying yourself that the institution is going to work as was originally intended.

I agree that undue interference by the Government would be wrong and bad. I agree with the Deputy that ordinarily, in matters of that sort, it is very much better that you give it to a body of men, and I hope it will develop ultimately in that direction. My anxiety is mainly confined to these early years. I was hoping to get, before the appointments were made, an indication of the general plan. There is a great deal of work to be done by that body. No one person who has not the help of experts could immediately plan out the volume of work to be done. My anxiety is that that would be done in the ordinary way: that the whole question of the type of academic staff you are going to have, the remuneration and so on, would be mapped out in advance, so that when appointments came to be made there would not be the question of a salary for a particular individual. Instead, what would be regarded as fair remuneration would be fixed in advance for a certain class.

I want to assure the House and the Deputy that any anxiety he could have with regard to improper interference by the Government I have and the other members of the Government have. We are anxious that this institution should function as it was intended when the Bill was put through. We deplore and regret the passing from it of a great Celtic scholar. The one thing that makes it easier to think of his departure is that I believe he is not going to be lost to Irish studies and Irish work, that he is going to continue that work probably in another place and probably in a way that will be more satisfactory from his own point of view. Therefore, he is not lost to the nation or to that particular sphere of national work. I am also sorry that the chairman—he was responsible for giving me one of the first programmes or indications of the work that could be done by such an institute —is gone from it. I regret it very much. He also is a scholar. I am glad to think, however, that he also in another direction—not in the way that I would have hoped—will naturally continue his work. Anything that could have been done in the ordinary way to avoid that situation was done, but we could not—it would be wrong for any Government to do so in a case like that—just leave the position so. A compromise arrived at as a result of a certain position was, in our opinion, going to be bad generally for the institute. We had to choose one of two evils, and we did not wish for either the one or the other. I do not think there is anything more I have to say to the House.

Amendment put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 31; Níl, 58.

  • Bennett, George C.
  • Benson, Ernest E.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Curran, Richard.
  • Davin, William.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry M.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Hannigan, Joseph.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Hughes, James.
  • Keating, John.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • Brodrick, Seán.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McGovern, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Timothy J.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Sullivan, John M.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Ryan, Jeremiah.

Níl

  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Dan.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Carty, Frank.
  • Childers, Erskine H.
  • Cooney, Eamonn.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Crowley, Fred Hugh.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Fuller, Stephen.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hogan, Daniel.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Kelly, James P.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Loughman, Francis.
  • Lynch, James B.
  • McCann, John.
  • McDevitt, Henry A.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Meaney, Cornelius.
  • Morrissey, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Mullen, Thomas.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Rourke, Daniel.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Rice, Brigid M.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Conn.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Everett and Hickey; Níl: Deputies Smith and Kennedy.
Question declared lost.
Vote put and agreed to.
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