Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 17 Jul 1941

Vol. 84 No. 14

Estimates for Public Services. Committee on Finance. - Emergency Powers (Continuance) Bill, 1941—Committee and Final Stages.

On the Second Stage of this Bill I pointed out that really it was not at all a Committee Stage Bill and that it appeared to me to be a Bill mainly, for Second Reading. I think the House was prepared, in the main, to give me the Second and Final Stages at that particular period, but exception was taken, for another reason, I think, by some of the Labour Deputies. I do not think, however, that there was any suggestion that it was a Bill that was going to be amended in detail, and so I would ask the House to accept the Bill at this stage.

Bill put through Committee, reported without amendment, and received for final consideration.

Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

In the course of the Budget speech, the House learned, for the first time, that a new order had been passed, which has since been called the Standstill Order. The only manner in which that came before the House was by a motion of a member of the Labour Party to annul it. Three hours' debate was allowed. On the occasion of the annulment motion, the Minister in charge commenced to speak somewhere about 20 minutes to 10 o'clock, and concluded at 20 minutes past 10. The seconder of the motion then proceeded to wind up the debate from 20 minutes past to half-past 10, and that is all that was allowed on it. Now, the cause of complaint is that the Ministerial case was not made in connection with this order until within the last hour of the discussion. Surely, in a matter of that kind, the Government should regulate business in a more becoming manner so far as the House is concerned. Here was a measure of considerable moment to very large numbers of people, and if it were not for the opportunity that was afforded by a discussion that took place in the Seanad, in which there was no restriction as far as I know, in connection with the discussion, this House would not have been in possession of the case that was made, as far as the Government was concerned.

Now, I have got a second complaint to make: that in a matter of that kind, so far as my judgment is concerned, it was not contemplated, when this Act was going through the House, that it would be employed for the purpose of bringing in such an order as that, and we had no suspicion that this Act would be employed for that purpose. The sum and substance of these two complaints is that, whereas this appeared to the Government to be the best method for introducing the standstill order, it appeared to a number of us that there was a far better method adopted in the North of Ireland or across the water in connection with the same matter, and the subsequent amendment of this order would indicate that the Ministry came to the same conclusion. Now, it would be a satisfaction to us if, in the event of any similar departure from practice in introducing an order such as this, an early opportunity would be taken by the Government to explain the case for the order. That is the first point.

The second point is that in connection with these emergency orders, which are published at frequent intervals, it ought to be the concern of the Government to save people's time. An order is issued in which there is a reference to such-and-such an Act or to a previous order that has been made, and no mention whatever is made of the subject-matter of it. It means going to the file, looking up the order and getting it out, and if 100 people do that—perhaps the Minister will say that is an exaggeration—there are 100 minutes lost in making that search. Whereas, if a tag were attached with the information that it deals with such-and-such a matter, it would be of much more service and save the time not only of Deputies but perhaps of persons outside.

Mr. Byrne

It was under the Emergency Powers Act that Order No. 83 was made. That order has not been effective in doing what the Minister thought it would do. Does he propose to amend it in any way? It was intended to bring matters to a standstill on a certain date. While the order was effective as regards wages, the cost of living went up rapidly and no protection was afforded to those whose wages were stabilised. Does the Minister propose to amend that standstill order in any way in order to get down the cost of living, at any rate, to the figure at which it was when the order was introduced? Unfortunately, it has kept down wages, but it has not prevented the increase in the cost of the necessaries of life.

I cannot go into the standstill order, in general, its merits and so on, at this stage. That matter has been debated a number of times by the House. With regard to Deputy Cosgrave's point that the Government's reason for it had not been stated in time, it seems to me that the main lines of it were stated in the Budget speech, so that the House got timely notice of it and of the views expressed. While that is so, I agree that it would be desirable, even from the point of view of the Government, that a full explanation should be made as early as possible. I do not know the circumstances under which the debate took place or whether the Minister's views were expressed completely before the winding-up of the debate. There was only a short time given to him, apparently about ten minutes. I do not know the facts, and I can only say that if that was so, it is desirable that the House should get as full an explanation as possible. I am not saying whether it did or did not happen, because I am not in a position to judge.

I think my point has been missed. One Party put down a motion to annul the order. On the occasion of the Budget speech, I said that I was prepared to hear and decide on the case made for it. I did not hear it until the debate was on the point of finishing and, consequently, had no opportunity of taking part in the debate.

The Minister informs me that the case was made. As I say, I am not in a position to know the facts at the moment. All I can say is that, if the contention is that a reasonable opportunity should be given to the House to know at an early stage in the discussion of a motion what the Government's view is, it is desirable in my opinion that that should be done. I think the Deputy can be met to that extent. As to the question whether it did or did not happen, I am not in a position to judge. There is a difference of opinion as between the Minister and Deputies on the opposite side as to what actually occurred. In regard to the general principle, I think the Minister and everybody else are agreed that it is desirable, if a motion is being discussed by the House, that the Ministerial attitude in regard to the matter should be stated at as early a stage as possible. If a motion is introduced to annul an order, if that takes a long time and only three hours are available for the discussion, it is evident that the Minister may be put very far back as regards the time at which the explanation will be given. The matter will be borne in mind, but it ought to be possible to try to get the Ministerial defence or the explanation for it at as early a stage as possible. But the rules of the House are that, when a motion is introduced to annul an order, the mover of the motion makes his case. Then the seconder has the right also to make a speech, if he wishes, or to reserve his remarks for a later stage. If you have two speeches and these are long, then naturally the Minister can only come in after these have been made and may be precluded from giving his explanation at as early a stage as would be desirable. But everybody knows that it is desirable to have the Government case made.

Is there any reason why a debate of that kind on an important issue such as this should be limited to three hours?

Perhaps the Minister will explain the matter.

Perhaps I might give the history of this matter so far as my recollection of it goes, and I think it is reasonably reliable. The question of making the standstill order and the general grounds on which it was felt that such an order should be made were stated by the Minister for Finance in his Budget speech. In the course of the debate on the general Budget resolution this matter was raised by the principal speakers on the Labour Benches, at any rate. It was dealt with by two Ministers in the course of the debate in fairly long speeches. My own speech dealt with it mainly, and the speech of the Minister for Supplies was largely concerned with it. Other speeches made in the course of the debate also touched upon it, some of them at great length —some of the critical speeches; so that, so far as the House is concerned, it had the earliest possible opportunity of discussing this matter, and, in fact, a procedure was devised which would permit that to be done. Following that debate a motion was put down in the Seanad and a motion was also put down in the Dáil. In fact, the motion was put down in the Seanad first of all, and the reasons for the order were debated there. Subsequent to that debate a motion was put down in this House to annul the order, and a day was appointed for the debate. At the instance of the Deputy responsible for putting down the motion, the debate was postponed, and then other Parliamentary business intervened. It was only on the day preceding the lapse of the 21 days, the statutory period, that it was decided to have the debate.

There was general agreement that the debate need not extend over three hours. I hoped to intervene at a reasonably early stage, but some speakers intervened to prevent me, and I was unable to commence my speech in defence of the order until about 9.55 p.m. I had to cease at 10.15 to allow the seconder of the motion, who had asked that the right to reply should be reserved to him, to deal with the situation. The point I want to make is that, as far as the Government are concerned, they stated before the order was made the general grounds upon which it was being based. That was to give the House the earliest possible opportunity to debate the order. The order was made that evening and was debated on the general Budget resolution on the following day and continued the whole of the subsequent day. The matter was then debated in the Seanad. When the motion was put down here it was again debated in this House, so that there was the fullest possible opportunity of discussing this order.

I am not interested in the discussion. What I wanted to get was Ministerial opinion. We got in tabloid form the Minister's views. We do not usually care for tabloids if we can hear the dispenser or the medical adviser on the question.

No one could accuse me of being a tabloid speaker.

We will have that matter examined. The only objection of real substance is that it may be difficult to give, in short form, useful for ready reference, with a sufficiently comprehensive title, a statement to cover all points and not be misleading. If help of that kind can be given it is desirable that it should be given. The numbers are there but it means looking up the files.

Those of us who have not long to live would like to employ our time to advantage.

Question put and agreed to.
Top
Share