I understand that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance desires to make a statement giving a fuller reply to some questions addressed to him regarding turf. For that statement to be made consent of the House is necessary.
Statement on the Turf Position.
Is it proposed to deal with that matter before the House deals with the question of the Order of Business, because so far as this side of the House is concerned we would strenuously object to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance making a statement on turf and fuel without affording the House an opportunity of discussing that statement? If it would suit the convenience of the Government that time should be provided to-day or to-morrow for a discussion on fuel, paraffin oil, etc., we would be glad to meet the Government in regard to the time chosen for that discussion, but we would object most strenuously to an ex parte statement on the part of the Government without any opportunity being given to Deputies who have come up from the country for the purpose of discussing that question with a view to having any existing evils abated.
The Deputy, like other Deputies, is aware of the fact that all Dáil business originates in a motion. No motion has been submitted regarding peat fuel. If objection be taken to a statement being made by the Parliamentary Secretary in the manner in which he purports to make it, that ends the matter. Possibly on a motion for the adjournment such a statement might be debated if the Parliamentary Secretary and the Government so desired, and if the Opposition Parties are agreeable.
The question of the provision of fuel is a very vital matter in present circumstances. The Parliamentary Secretary apparently proposes to make a fairly lengthy statement. It is, therefore, desirable that an opportunity should be afforded to the members of the House to discuss that statement. Will the Government agree to allocate some time this evening or to-morrow, so that members of the House may have an opportunity of discussing any statement which the Parliamentary Secretary makes? It is essential that there should be some discussion of his statement.
I do not think the House has any objection to the Parliamentary Secretary making any statement he likes. In fact I think the House would welcome a statement, but what has been put to the Government is that this matter is so urgent—it is of such paramount importance—that an opportunity should be provided not only for the House to listen to the Parliamentary Secretary, but that the Parliamentary Secretary and the Government should have an opportunity of listening to the representatives of the people: that they should have an opportunity of having the people's views put before them in regard to the whole fuel situation. In view of the fact that we have been told that there will be comparatively little public business before the House this week, this matter is surely of sufficient importance and urgency to merit time being provided for a full discussion on it.
There is only one way of having these matters arranged, and that is prior to a sitting of the House. Every effort was made yesterday to secure the best possible means of discussing the number of questions addressed to the Parliamentary Secretary in relation to turf. We felt that the best means of doing that was to have a full statement from the Parliamentary Secretary covering all the questions that were put down, and of dealing, in fact, with the whole general position in relation to turf. That suggestion was conveyed by me to Deputy Mulcahy and Deputy Norton. After some discussion with the former Deputy I agreed not alone to that course but to allow those who had questions on the Order Paper to ask any supplementaries that they might decide to ask in order to secure a further elucidation of any point that might be obscure. I felt assured that I had got agreement on that—that I had secured the agreement of those with whom I could get in contact to that course. Now it seems as if nothing can be agreed on through that channel which is the only channel we have for arranging these matters. Why must we have, irrespective of any discussions that take place beforehand between the Whips of the Parties, a full dress discussion on matters that can be discussed and agreed upon in the ordinary normal proper course?
I do not quite understand the Parliamentary Secretary. I would like to protest against the suggestion that there is no chance of doing business between himself and myself. When it was conveyed to me yesterday that the Parliamentary Secretary was going to make a statement I raised the question of a possible debate on it. The Parliamentary Secretary says I agreed. I, at any rate, said that I would have an opportunity of consulting with my people last night, and would discuss the matter again with them this morning. After consultation last night with some of my people, I informed the Parliamentary Secretary this morning that we wanted a discussion on turf, and that we would also invite a statement from the Minister for Supplies on kerosene and flour with a view to discussing it. The Parliamentary Secretary did not agree with that, but it was put quite formally to him about a quarter to eleven this morning that we wanted to debate the Parliamentary Secretary's statement. I stated the previous day that I would "contact" him and let him know our position. That was put to him again at 12.15 to-day, so that it is unreasonable to suggest that we cannot be clear as to what we want. If the complaint is that a motion should have been put down in order to get the matter discussed, that is another question. The number of questions on the Order Paper to-day dealing with this matter is a suggestion to the Government that the adjournment should be moved for the purpose of having a debate at this stage. I rose simply to say that it was made perfectly clear that we desired a debate on the statement.
Deputy Mulcahy is fully conversant with the means available to members of the House to secure a full-dress debate on any particular matter. Here, it was a question of the number of queries on the Order Paper dealing with this subject. I made a suggestion to the Deputy as to what seemed to me to be the best means of having these questions disposed of. If he was not satisfied with the method I suggested, he should have said: "We do not think that is the best method; let them be disposed of in the ordinary way." If he wanted a full-dress debate on the turf position, he and the members of his Party know that a motion could be put down and that the Government could be asked to give time for discussion of it. If that course had been taken, we should have to try to facilitate them if we regarded the matter as one of urgency.
That is all right. We shall put down a motion.
When it was indicated to-day that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance would make a statement in reply to these questions, I assumed that that statement would be debated. Apparently, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach wants the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance to have an opportunity of making a speech and Opposition Deputies to be allowed only to ask questions regarding the speech. Why should we be prevented from discussing fuel supplies? It is obviously essential that we should discuss them. The question of fuel supplies is much more urgent than some of the Bills we are to be asked to deal with to-day. Let us have some time to discuss fuel supplies and nothing but good will come of the discussion. Let the people know what the fuel position is. Let the Government tell us what that position is and let us tell them what the views of the people are.
This is a matter which might be arranged in the usual way. It is clear that no debate can follow a statement by a Parliamentary Secretary or a Minister unless there is a motion before the House. It is the practice here and elsewhere that, by permission of the House, a Minister may make a statement not to be debated. If a debate on turf fuel is desired, other steps should be taken.
Surely it is quite competent for the Government, on a matter of urgent importance like this, to provide time to-day, to-morrow or on some other occasion without a motion. The Government themselves could have a motion moved.
The question might be debated on the motion for the adjournment, as I originally suggested. The position, however, is this. There were several questions on the Paper about turf to which the Parliamentary Secretary desired to give a comprehensive reply. The matter might be arranged through the normal channels without taking up further the time of the House.
Can it not be arranged now?
I suggest that it would be arranged much more quickly outside.
I am not not making any speech. Is it not in order for the Parliamentary Secretary to move the adjournment when making his statement?
It would be quite irregular without some previous notice to the Chair. Otherwise the adjournment could be moved casually without reference to ordered business.
The easiest way out of the difficulty is, I think, to take the statement from the Parliamentary Secretary as if it were a comprehensive reply, as I understand it was intended to be, to a number of questions. If there is a desire on the part of the House to have the whole question fully discussed, there will be no objection to giving time. The arrangement the Parliamentary Secretary thought he had made did not contemplate a discussion. The statement can be taken now, and the only question will be whether a discussion should take place to-night or to-morrow. If that question is left over we shall be able to settle it.
By leave of the House, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance will now make a statement which is not to be followed by a debate.
At this stage.
At this stage.
My object was to give the House any information it required in a form which would be better than that of answers to questions, with the limitations that that method imposes. Many of the questions on the Order Paper to-day would require a very considerable amount of research and a lot of detailed information, very little of which would, in fact, contribute, in my opinion, any benefit at the present time in relation to this emergency. It might be of historical or other informational value, but most of it was not going to add a ton of turf to the supplies or provide material for one coal fire. My attitude was that these questions were intended to be an expression of the desire of the House for information in relation to the position, and that Deputies would like to get obscurities and difficulties cleared up by the answers to these questions. My object is to give the House such information as is in my possession which seems to be significant in the present position. The House has, in relation to this whole matter, adopted an attitude which is both reasonable and helpful, and I feel that I am bound to meet the House in that spirit, and to be as helpful and co-operative as I possibly can.
The first question in people's minds is: what amount of turf has been cut, and where has it been cut? I shall circulate in the Official Report the actual figures, but I shall give them now, in summary, to the House, so that Deputies may have them as a background to this statement.
We do not yet know the amount of turf cut by the general community. At the present moment a census is being taken to find out what the ordinary people have cut, but how far that is going to give a satisfactory return I am not yet in a position to say. What I am in a position to tell is the amount of turf which has been cut as national turf by county surveyors under instructions from the Government. The total amount cut by them, taking as an estimate ten cubic yards of raw turf to one finished ton of dry turf, is 1,000,000 tons. I am giving round figures. Carlow cut 3,000 tons; Cavan, 10,000 tons.
It might clear up our difficulty if the Parliamentary Secretary, instead of reading out a long litany of figures, which may be useful to Deputies who want to participate in a debate which may take place later, could assure us that we could get this information in some kind of statistical form to enable us to debate them intelligently. There is no use in reading out figures now. Could the Parliamentary Secretary make some effort to give them in tabular form so that we might have them to-day or to-morrow?
A tabular form is being circulated.
In the Official Report?
In the Official Report. If Deputies want these figures in some form, and to have them before them, I will see if that is possible.
Can we have them before the debate takes place?
Yes. These are the figures in tons from the county surveyors: Carlow, 3,000; Cavan, 10,000; Clare, 50,000; Cork, 50,000; Donegal, 240,000; Dublin, 2,500; Galway, 130,000; Kerry, 121,000; Kildare, 12,000; Kilkenny 4,500; Laoighis, 17,500; Leitrim about 8,000; Limerick, 32,000; Longford, 25,000; Louth, 2,000; Mayo, 74,000;
Meath, 14,000; Monaghan, 22,000; Offaly, 10,000; Roscommon, 37,000; Sligo, 32,000; Tipperary, North and South, 52,000; Waterford, 6,500; Westmeath, 24,500; Wexford, 700; Wicklow, 12,600. Of the 1,000,000 tons, about 700,000 are now saved and stacked on the sides of the roads or distributed. About 150,000 tons have been distributed by county surveyors to the local authorities, to hospitals and the like, for consumption. The total amount expended by county surveyors up to the last date that I have was £825,000. As the House is aware the country is divided into two areas, one a turf area, and the other a non-turf area. I have a map which will illustrate the position to the House. The large dark portion represents that part of the State which is at present a turf area. Deputies will notice that it covers practically the whole of the centre and the west of the country, leaving a fringe all the way up the east coast. Inside that area, by means of over 2,000 petrol lorries, somewhere about 900,000 tons of turf have been already distributed, and from my observation going around I should say that even more has been distributed by horse transport.
It is certainly true to say that there has never been in the history of this country a time when more turf has been put into circulation. As far as that turf area goes it covers nearly three-quarters of the total area of the State and about one half of its population. What is significant and what we have to deal with is the relation of that one half of the population to three-quarters of the area of the State, and we may take it that the fuel prospects of this year, due to the provision by providence of turf, are practically secure. There may be odd spots of population who still may have difficulty, but within the whole of the brown area, representing three-quarters of the State, I think we may safely regard the position as moderately comfortable and secure.
There are two areas which are at present outside the turf area, Meath and part of Limerick, the incorporation of which in this area is in contemplation. It is considered that their immediate problems for this year can probably be better solved by depending upon their hinterland of turf areas than under the present system. They are both short of their total requirements of fuel, but it is hoped and believed that if they are incorporated in the turf area, with the breaking down of barriers which surround them, that that will enable the position to be put right. It is certainly anticipated that next year these areas, Limerick and Meath, may safely be included in the turf area and regarded as places which ought not to cause us anxiety. The actual position in relation to employment under county surveyors, which as Deputies know went to about 35,000, with an average of something about 30,000 for the main part of the campaign is that employment has rapidly dropped, and is now somewhere about 8,500 men, while there are a couple of thousand men in addition engaged upon works of development. The sum of £172,000 has been spent this year on works of development in relation to the production of the turf of this year and in preparation for the larger production during next year. So much for the turf areas.
There remains the problem of Dublin, Cork, Louth, Wexford, Wicklow, Waterford and Kilkenny. I hope that next year we may be able to provide some form of camps or some arrangement by which this area will be able to draw from its neighbours and be incorporated in that portion of the country which will be more or less self-dependent. One of the reasons why I read out the statement for you, and one of the reasons why the tabular statement which Deputy Norton asked for will be valuable and important in the debate, lies in the information it gives as to the acute disparities in distribution of the areas of supply of turf relative to the areas in which turf is required. Donegal, Mayo, Galway, Clare and Kerry, right round this fringe of the country-those five counties— contain between them 65 per cent. of the total amount of turf cut by the county surveyors. A very much larger proportion than 65 per cent. of the amount of turf which could be regarded as surplus to the areas in which it was cut—it might go up to 80 per cent. of the total amount of turf which could possibly be used outside its own area— is in these extreme western points, the furthest possible points from the places at which we wanted to get it.
That summarises for you the actual problem of turf distribution in this year and the next. As you are aware, there is turf over this whole area, right up to within 15 miles of the City of Dublin, up in the Wicklow mountains, and then right out into Kildare, Leix-Offaly, and the rest. The natural feeling is that that is where we ought to go to look for the turf and that it should be possible to bring it in from there. Roscommon, Leix-Offaly, Westmeath and Kildare combined have not cut 10 per cent. of the total amount which was cut by the county surveyors this year—and the county surveyors' cutting of turf is typical of the position. In other words, when it is a question of getting a large quantity for the eastern counties—and especially for Dublin—you have to look right to the extreme end, and you can place practically no reliance even upon those excellent turf areas which are near at hand. The one represents nominally 65 per cent. and the other 10 per cent. I believe, as far as surplus turf is concerned, the one would represent 100 per cent. and the other 5 per cent. or 6 per cent. For that reason it was necessary to do exactly the opposite to what one normally would try to do: it was necessary to take it, as rapidly as one could, from the furthest place at which it existed and bring it over rails into Dublin. The normal procedure which was in the minds of every one of us at the beginning, that we simply would collect the turf in lorries near at hand and bring it in and deliver it, turned out to be the exact opposite to what in practice was necessary and still is necessary. While there is a certain amount possible in this inner belt—I will tell you how much later— as far as I know the total is small. In so far as it is saved on the side of the road and in so far as we can bring it in—if we are prepared to go to the expense of bringing it in—it probably is as good there as if we had it here in town because, if we bring it in here now at a rate in excess of consumption, it means that we will have to add to it the cost of putting it into dumps, stacking and clamping it and taking it out of the dumps again. For that reason, while I am at the present moment engaged, and will be more and more extensively engaged, in scouring the inner belt—scouring it very extensively—for such turf as is available, the solution of the difficulty over the winter still must depend upon rail-borne turf from the outer areas.
The total amount of surplus turf available in the counties is roughly as follows: Kerry, 100,000 tons; Leix, 7,000; Clare, 30,000; Meath, 15,000; Offaly, 5,000; Mayo, 100,000; Roscommon, 20,000; Longford, 20,000; Galway, 50,000; Donegal, 150,000. That makes a total of 500,000 tons of apparently surplus and movable turf. This is all county surveyors' turf and, broadly speaking, you may take it that, where there is a large excess of county surveyors' turf, there is a very reasonable possibility of there being a further excess of home-cut turf.
If you take the inner belt again, you will see that the total amount there— Offaly, 5,000 tons; Roscommon, 20,000; Longford, 20,000, and Leix, 7,000—is relatively small.
Is there no surplus in the other parts?
The surplus in the other counties is: Kerry, 100,000 tons, and so on. I am giving the surplus, and all that surplus is right out on the extreme end. I believe there is a certain amount even in areas like Leix-Offaly, Roscommon and Longford, possibly over and above the amount which I have named, but we all know the psychology of scarcity in relation to supply. Immediately a thing seems to be scarce, it goes into hiding. What I am anxious to do is to induce those who do possess a surplus, to regard it as something which they are prepared to put at our disposal to the extent to which it is surplus. At the present moment anyone who has turf has put in rather more turf than he requires. Immediately a thing becomes short, people always hoard more than they want. People may be anxious in those areas, lest the amount of turf which they have may run out. They may want to carry somewhat more than a year's supply. I want them to understand that—whatever may be the position in any turf area this year—with the extra time which we will have at our disposal, with the organisation which exists, and with the knowledge and training which everybody has had in those areas in the last year—there is no question at all that in any turf area there cannot easily be produced more turf next year than they will require. Therefore, they can safely unload anything which is in excess and they can wisely run a little below what is sufficient in order that the pool of nearby turf shall be increased in the national interest.
Turf is now being carried by rail to Dublin from Mayo, Longford, Roscommon and Galway. It is being carried also from Mayo both by Six County routes and by a combined route which goes over the Great Southern and Western, the Sligo and Leitrim and the Great Northern Railway of Ireland into Dublin. I think we can say that every possible railway route has now been examined and, so far as mere routes and avenues are concerned, the whole position has been fully investigated. Kerry is sending turf into Cork. Galway, Clare and Offaly are sending it into Limerick—that is, over rails, and, on the roads, turf is coming from Leix and Offaly, with a certain small amount from Kildare, into Dublin. We were more anxious to build up a sound system of transport which would stand the strain over the whole year than merely to provide an immediate demonstration.
Broadly speaking, things seemed to be promising fairly satisfactorily in the early stages. By the middle of September there had been built up a transport of, roughly speaking, 2,500 tons a day of national turf from the turf into the non-turf areas, and the hope was that that gradual increase would develop. The daily average for the week ending 20th September was, I think, 2,340 tons a day. It was hoped, with that gradual and steady rise, that by the time we hit the beet and wheat traffic we would have built up a position which would have enabled us to carry on with some degree of confidence. Unfortunately, from the 20th September the position began to deteriorate. It gradually deteriorated until the end of the month, when it became definitely critical. It became worse and worse during the first three weeks of October. This was partly due to the beginning of the wheat traffic and the invasion of that traffic into the available supplies of lorries. It was mainly due to the reduced quantity, and the utterly deplorable quality, of the fuel which was being used on the railways.
As you are all aware—you have all lived through the experience of the last few weeks in connection with the railways—the position became practically chaotic. We had cases where a couple of hundred of empty wagons were sent off and simply did not arrive at their destinations. You had passenger trains which went out into the blue and remained in the blue. The end of it was that, by the middle of October, the railways had practically sat down, due to the amount and the quality of coal. At that point the Department of Supplies released certain coal which they were holding as an iron ration for domestic supplies for the purpose of the railways and, by the courtesy of the Department of Defence, there was put at the disposal of the Turf Controller 1,000 tons of coal, which was exchanged for a promissory note on 2,000 tons of very excellent Turraun turf. A public-spirited county surveyor in the west provided 500 tons of coal on his end of the traffic system, which came like manna from Heaven, and which was made available for railway purposes.
The picture changed again. From the 20th October on we began again to get into the daylight. Last week we carried an average of 1,650 tons of turf a day from the turf to the non-turf areas, and the indications up to the present are that that improvement is going to be maintained, and there is a hope that it may be increased.
Do those figures apply to all the turf going into the non-turf areas?
All turf going into the non-turf areas. Everybody in the non-turf areas is in exactly the same position as are the people in Dublin. You can be just as cold in Cork or Waterford as in Dublin City. What we are concerned with is that there is now moving into the non-turf areas something like 1,700 tons of turf a day and we contemplate that by the end of this month, if things go as we hope they will, we will have raised that figure to about 3,000 tons a day.
At the end of this month or next month?
At the end of November we hope to have raised that figure to about 3,000 tons a day and we may hold that until the end of January.
How do you ground that hope?
On a considerable amount of experience and a certain amount of prophecy.
This is a serious matter for the country—it is no joking matter.
I think the Deputy, if he investigates the situation carefully, will find that those of us who are engaged in this business day after day realise that we must have no let-up between now and the next turf harvest, and we are treating it quite as seriously as he is.
What about the Deputy's coal?
I do not want, as a matter of fact, to get anything like that into this discussion. When we were getting 2,500 tons of turf a day we had at our disposal something between 1,500 and 2,000 wagons of the 11,000 goods wagons available. We had been calculating on a three days' turn-around of those wagons, which meant that you would have a third of the wagons moving every day full of turf, but due to complications, of fuel and the rest of it, that turn-around deteriorated to four and sometimes even to five days, but we had at our disposal that 1,500 to 2,000 wagons. We have now struck the beet traffic stage. In the meantime, the railway company have crated for us 500 or 600 wagons and are in process of crating more. They have converted the equivalent of two trains, of 40 wagons each, of passenger coaches, by taking the roofs off them to increase the turf wagon supply, but when all that is taken into account we are now faced with the fact that the total amount of wagons with which we will have to live for the present is not 1,500 or 2,000, but somewhere about 1,000.
The significance of that, from the point of view of the House, is this. You can get turf into this city—I am taking this merely as typical—either over the relatively short haul of the roads or the long haul of the rails, and there is any amount of lorries in this country. As I told you, there were over 2,000 lorries engaged in moving turf in the turf areas, but those lorries can only be called upon in the limited supply of turf which is in the inner belt, and that can rapidly be exhausted. The only place where there is a large quantity of turf to be tapped is in the distant areas and over rail, and if the position is to be made secure in the non-turf areas over the winter it depends upon adequate rail traffic. We have pressed that point upon the railway companies, and the point has now been reached in which priorities in relation to traffic will have to be settled. You have wheat, beet, wood, and general merchandise in competition with turf.
What about perishable traffic?
Yes, I grant you. With regard to perishable traffic, the more acute you make that, the greater the difficulty becomes. They are in competition with a limited number of goods wagons, and on the decision as to what those priorities are, what the quantitative nature of those priorities is, will depend how secure we are going to be over the winter. We are in the position now of being able to feed the railway with all the traffic they can take, and if they take all the traffic which we can give to them then the position over the winter might be moderately comfortable and secure.
Is all this in respect of national turf?
National turf is 1,000,000 tons.
Is the Parliamentary Secretary, in his survey, giving the position with regard to national and non-national turf, or only national turf?
I shall put it this way. I have given you the total amount of national turf in the inner belt. The amount of non-national turf in that inner belt, in my opinion, is relatively small. In other words, you cannot assume that there is a large quantity outside that. I believe there is more than is visible, and I want to get it, but the total amount of it is not large. We have, therefore, two interests in the matter. There is one other interest in the matter of rail as distinct from road-borne turf: that rail-borne turf is going to be cheaper turf, but there is not going to be any cheap turf. Rail-borne turf is going into the boroughs at an average price of somewhere about 44/- to 46/- a ton, free on rail, in those places. Road-borne turf is 15/- to 20/- a ton more, on an average, at the distances which we are now hauling.
That is an eye-opener.
Yes, it is, and it is a very interesting eye-opener, and the further you drive the road transport out to get turf, the bigger that discrepancy will be. It takes, roughly speaking, a galion of petrol to move a ton of turf from a bog 20 miles away. With that basis as a calculation you can calculate how much it is going to cost me if I do—as I am going to do—bring turf from Roscommon and from Galway by road, if necessary, in order to fill this gap. But my chief object in pressing this point at the moment is in order that the House may appreciate how important it is that the largest possible use shall be made of the railway system and that the largest amount of its stock as possible shall be rendered available for this purpose. Now, the Army, as you know, has been highly helpful and co-operative in this matter from the beginning. It is at present itself engaged, or in the process of becoming engaged, in shifting some 70,000 or 80,000 tons of turf from the turf areas into the non-turf areas. This turf is primarily for purpose of defence, but it is under an agreement that it shall be available for civilian purposes if that is necessary. For that purpose they are using some 300 lorries of their own and they are putting at the disposal of national turf another 200 crated lorries for the purpose of bringing in that turf. Well, now, what is the actual position up to the moment of turf stored as an iron ration? The total amount is, roughly speaking, 100,000 tons.
Stored where?
70,000 tons in Dublin, 8,000 tons in Dundalk, 500 tons in Drogheda, 10,000 tons in Cork, 3,500 tons in Wexford, 2,500 tons in Waterford, and about 7,000 tons in Limerick. That position will, we hope, not merely be maintained, but can be improved if we can reach the figure of 3,000 tons a day import. We are, as a matter of fact, in one other matter trying to help the railway transport for turf. We did suggest at an early stage that it would be good and sound economy to use the coal which was in reserve for the purpose of enabling a larger quantity of fuel to be brought over the rails. I think the amount of fuel required, the amount which is burned compared with what is brought, would be somewhere about 7 or 8 per cent. Therefore, it is a good thing to take out of your reserve something that would enable you to bring stuff in.
Considerable technical difficulty, apparently, was found in the beginning from the railway point of view in segregating the stuff which was so delivered, but that difficulty seems to have been got over, and the 1,500 tons of coal which, by the courtesy of the Minister for Defence and the western county surveyor, we were in a position to give to the railway company, plus two wagons of turf which are being added to each train and which are part of their equipment, have resulted in — as far as it is possible for the railway company to give it—a guarantee that something in relation to a schedule will be kept in regard to turf trains from now until the end of January. Another figure that the House may be glad to have, and which will become significant when we come afterwards to consider the cost of turf as a fuel, is that in regard to all turf delivered free on rail in the City of Dublin, some 66 per cent., or two-thirds of the total cost, is apparently represented by labour. Turf stored on the side of the bog has practically 100 per cent. labour content, but even when it has reached the city it still has two-thirds labour content.
That covers the position, as far as I know it, in relation to this year and its campaign. As far as next year is concerned, we hope to see Kilkenny, Cork, and Louth added to the turf areas, leaving only Wexford, possibly part of Wicklow, and Dublin, as the danger points; but, if we are to calculate, as is possible, that there might not be alternative fuel available in the form of coal, the position in relation to Dublin next year will still be critical. For that reason the Government has authorised that there should be built a series of camps in the inner belt, which will enable turf to be produced in a position from which it could be transported. The intention is to build hutments for somewhere about 10,000 men, though whether we could build anything like that amount in the time available, or whether, having done so, we will be able to recruit that number of competent sleansmen for the purpose in the time, is doubtful. One of our objects in allowing places like Donegal and Kerry, and other places like that, this year to cut more turf than they could possibly use, or than we could possibly transport, is so that there will not be the necessity for the turf-cutters to remain in those counties during next year for the purpose of cutting their own turf. We have built up a reserve by which those men, to the extent to which they are prepared to come and cut the turf in the Midlands, will be available to do it.
Will they come?
That I do not know, but I hope they will. Naturally, we would prefer, if it were possible, to use the people who themselves are going to consume the turf. It would be very desirable if, for instance, we could send out only Dublin men to cut Dublin turf, but experience up to the present has shown that the use of city labour for the purpose of cutting turf in virgin bogs at any rate has not been satisfactory, and that the cost of turf cut in those circumstances would be very greatly in excess of the cost of the turf if it were cut by men, say, from Mayo or Donegal or places of that kind. In addition, it would mean the occupation of the very limited amount of housing accommodation by those who would not have the same output rate as the western men if they were prepared to cut. It is for that reason that we are anxious to see the western men here cutting turf. A great many of those who normally would be available for it are people who migrate during the summer. Every possible inducement will require to be made and given to see that those who could cut turf here in their own country for the benefit and the salvation of their own people here will do so next year rather than go elsewhere. The total cost of those camps will be, roughly speaking, £500,000, and at the present moment the staff is fully engaged on laying out the actual camps. Architects have been engaged for the purpose of designing the structure, and contracts will be let in a very short time. I do not hope to see the equipment for 10,000 men provided between now and the beginning of next season, but I do intend that the largest possible amount of accommodation that can be provided by the strongest possible pressure that we all can exercise will in fact be provided.
Would the Parliamentary Secretary deal with timber as distinct from fuel proper?
I am sorry I did not bring the particulars with me. There is a very considerable quantity of timber being accumulated in the dumps at the same time. It is being accumulated in Drogheda, Waterford, Cork, Dublin, Wexford, and in four or five other places.
What is the total quantity?
I had rather not guess. The intention is that at least 100,000 tons of it shall be there, and I think 100,000 tons will be there. If possible, we shall cut more. I have had to-day an application from the Department of Lands asking us, under the Emergency Powers Vote, to finance arrangements under which they themselves are going to add to their other activities by cutting timber of that kind.
Would the Parliamentary Secretary allow me to ask a question? He will recollect that on the last occasion we discussed this matter in the House it was suggested that, at the end of the turf season this year, a very large number of men would become unemployed who had been employed for the season in the bogs. The number has dropped, I believe, from 30,000 to 8,000. The Parliamentary Secretary, and the Taoiseach himself, indicated that the Department would endeavour to switch these men from turf cutting to dealing with scrub and other classes of timber, not only for the purpose of providing fuel, but also to provide employment for these men during the winter months. I should like to know if anything has been done in that direction as distinct from what he said in reply to Deputy Norton's question.
Normally speaking, there are about 20,000 men engaged on the roads in the country. We switched a very considerable portion of these on to the bogs early in the season and they are now being switched back again to the roads to do that minimum maintenance work which we had neglected during the summer. The ordinary scheme of unemployment work during the winter will take place as usual, but most of the men, at least all of the men whom it is possible so to employ, will be used for the purpose of that development work. At present, I think there are about 3,000 men in addition to the 8,000 actually engaged on development.
That is development of bogs?
Development of bogs and drainage in relation to them.
Could you not switch some of these people over to timber cutting in the winter?
It is common knowledge to Deputies that there is a considerable quantity of fallen timber— in a great many cases timber which has fallen into rivers. That is the sort of timber that would be usefully dealt with now during the winter. It could be removed from the rivers. There is also scrub timber in old cut-away woods which could provide useful employment and a great deal of firing. That firing is in very many cases in close proximity to cities and urban areas, a fact that would to some extent solve the transport problem.
The Deputy may take it that scrub timber wherever it is available, will certainly have attention. While it is no doubt desirable, from the point of view of the rivers, that the stuff which the Deputy says lies in rivers should be removed, I would regard that as a very expensive method of getting emergency fuel. The Deputy may, however, take it that any scrub or emergency timber which is available will have very careful attention.
Has any effort been made to discover where scrub timber is available? Has any census been taken?
The Deputy may take it that a very full examination has been made with the able assistance of the Department of Lands and Forestry. The proposal which I have now from the Department of Lands in relation to the Emergency Vote does refer to that —actually going in to use such places as the Deputy has in mind.
Might I suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that he might try to overcome some of the difficulties in the non-turf areas by utilising in these areas the timber supplies which are available in substitution for turf which he believes can only be taken from the western strip because it is there that it is only available in abundance?
It is not a question of clearing all the wood out in one year. Anyone who has calculated on the basis that this emergency will last only this year would be very unwise. The intention is during the time of the emergency that all such scrub timber which can usefully and properly be put to use as fuel will so be utilised. Next year, as Deputies know, we shall have a slightly different problem to face. We certainly shall not be able to start out and say to everybody: "Cut an unlimited amount of turf." Next year, with the knowledge we have of our transport problems, it will be necessary for us to some extent to delimit the amount and the areas of production, always making quite sure that the total amount which is being produced will be sufficient for the country. A surplus quantity of turf has been cut this year in certain remote areas but next year I think it would be more profitable for the State—and I hope at least equally profitable for the individual—to cut turf in some other place from which it will be more convenient for us to transport it. I have given to the House, as fully as I can, that portion of the information which to me seems to be significant. If there is any other information which members of the House would desire as a contribution to the solution of the immediate difficulty, or a contribution to their own comfort in feeling that a proper attempt is being made at a solution of that difficulty, I shall be most happy to give it.
Could the Parliamentary Secretary give us an idea of the fuel position in Dublin and Cork which are the most critical centres at the moment and which present the biggest problem to him?
Dublin has some 70,000 tons of turf at the moment. As far as I can see they are capable of bringing in 2,000 tons of turf a day. That is what I am aiming at.
Will 2,000 tons keep pace with consumption with what you have in reserve? What is the total consumption?
It all depends on what is your standard consumption. No one is going to have that liberal sufficiency over this winter, but I do personally believe now that, if we are given sufficient access to railway transport, and if the whole of the fuel supplies which are in the City of Dublin and places of that kind are ascertained and are available to be used for community purposes, we should be able to get over this winter without anything very serious happening.
The Parliamentary Secretary has not answered my question. I want to know what is the normal consumption of fuel in Dublin per day and what fuel he can guarantee will be available.
I cannot tell you from memory.
Then you have failed in your job.
The Parliamentary Secretary has mentioned that at one period 2,500 tons a day were transported from the turf areas into the non-turf areas. Can he say what percentage of that was carried by rail, road and canal?
At that time about three-quarters, or rather more than three-quarters, were being carried by rail.
Mr. Byrne
In view of the fact that there is an emergency, will the Parliamentary Secretary say when will some of the fuel that is stored in Dublin be distributed amongst the class of people who buy in very small lots and who have not seen a turf or a coal cart during the last couple of months? I am speaking of people who buy coal blocks at 2d. each and a stone of green timber, which is too big for their fires, at 6d. When will some of the fuel which is stored at the North Wall and the Custom House Docks be distributed among the class of people I have referred to—those who buy sixpence and one shilling's worth?
The answer to that is, very shortly. The actual position in relation to that I will put to you now. Originally, the definition of the functions of the turf controller was that he should be responsible for all questions of production, distribution and price of turf. By an arrangement between the Minister for Supplies and the turf controller, it has been arranged that in the areas that are declared to be non-turf areas the turf controller shall function in that manner up to the point of actually bringing the turf in and putting it into dumps. At that particular stage, and at the moment at which it is agreed that the turf shall be distributed, that turf will be handed over in those non-turf areas to the Minister for Supplies and he will be responsible for its retail distribution and price. I think the time at which he will be prepared to allow this turf to come into circulation is coming very close. There is no difficulty at the present moment, if the Minister for Supplies does in fact feel that a certain limited quantity is required for that particular necessity, why that should not be done. That is a matter for his discretion.
I want to say this quite frankly. I have had complaints of the character which the Deputy has mentioned and when I come down to brass tacks to try to get the names and addresses or identification of people of that kind, it has not proved to be very solid. I do not believe that there is any real hardship at the present moment of a distributive character. There is a borough which I have in mind in relation to which there was in the newspapers some time ago a statement that it only had three or four days' supply of fuel. There are 3,000 tons of turf in the possession of two coal dealers in that borough and they tell me that there is no demand for the turf. That is an actual fact and you have to face it.
What is the name of the borough?
There are a lot of people in this House trying to discuss this question, and all the Deputy is doing is providing a very foolish chorus. There is a psychological effect. Where the thing is physically present, the demand falls off; but immediately there is a suggestion of a shortage, the demand is completely exaggerated. I had the experience of showing the dumps that we had in Dublin to very responsible people in this city, and immediately they saw them their whole enthusiasm for the import of turf practically disappeared. It seemed to be too much. There is undoubtedly that psychology, and I want to warn people against it. They see an amount of turf accumulating in a place. They are not used to estimating the fuel value relative to its enormous bulk. They seem to think that things are all right. The total amount of turf which is kept as an iron ration in any of the districts at the present moment is not sufficient to justify anyone in slackening up for an hour from doing everything that is possible to get the turf.
Can the Parliamentary Secretary tell us how many tons of turf he hopes are available for the City of Dublin, and what proportion that will be to the amount of fuel consumed in an ordinary year?
That is a question he will not answer.
I have told the House that I have 70,000 tons at the moment. I am hoping to get in 2,000 tons a day.
The Parliamentary Secretary has not grasped my question.
That question has been answered as a Parliamentary Question. I will look up the actual information and give it to the Deputy. On the basis of a certain standard of consumption of turf in Dublin, a certain amount will be required. That information is available and is on record, but I have not got it at the moment.
The Parliamentary Secretary says that he hopes to bring it in at the rate of 2,000 tons a day.
I am hoping.
How long will that be kept up?
Given railway transport, I can keep it up until next July and from next July right on until the July after.
That is 12,000 tons a week.
If I have railway transport. If I am driven to road transport, then I am driven to a pool that I will exhaust.
I am not talking about transport, but about the available supply. How much have you available to bring in?
Five hundred thousand or 600,000 tons.
Available for Dublin?
Available for the non-turf areas. I have more turf available than I will be able to transport.
Can the Parliamentary Secretary say whether it is a fact that a fleet of lorries offered by the Great Southern Railway Company for the transport of turf during the month of June was not availed of by his Department?
I should require notice of that question.
Will the Parliamentary Secretary say whether he has any information which would indicate that he might expect any improvement in the coal imports during the next six months which might temper our judgment towards the fuel supply from native sources, or are we to assume that the fuel supply from external sources is still uncertain and that we are unlikely to get any more imported fuel than we are at present getting?
I think I told the House on a previous occasion that the information in relation to the prospects of coal is very controversial. My own personal belief at the present moment is that the coal position, as far as the availability of coal itself is concerned, is improving, but the position of the transport of that coal when it is available is disimproving. I am not in a position to measure the one against the other.
On a point of order, it has been suggested by the Taoiseach that there would be time given to-morrow for a debate on the statement by the Parliamentary Secretary, and if that time is being allocated I would suggest that we wait until then to discuss the matter.
We have been suggesting that to the Deputy for the last 20 minutes. I presume the debate on this matter will be taken to-morrow. I take it it will not be to-day.
I think it would be more satisfactory for everybody to have it to-morrow, but I am not in a position at the moment to settle that matter. When business is being announced to-morrow there may be a question of order. The Ceann Comhairle raised a question to-day as to how a matter like this could be discussed. The question of the precise method of discussion will have to be settled.
May I suggest, subject to the ruling of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle, that the Government have only to move the adjournment at any particular time it suits them? I am putting that forward, subject to the Chair. I think that is so. I would suggest to the Taoiseach, if I may do so, that this matter is the most important and urgent matter at the moment and that there would be no attempt to cramp the time in any way for the sake of an hour or half an hour.
There is no definite arrangement with regard to the matter.
I am suggesting that if the Government wish to provide the time to-morrow I think it will be quite easy for them to do so.
We will look into it. I expect there will be no difficulty.
Will we know before the House adjourns to-night what the arrangements are?
I do not know. I thought we would indicate that at the time business is being announced to-morrow, but if Deputies will be convenienced by knowing to-night, I will try to have them facilitated.
It would be convenient if we knew by half past ten to-night.
Would it be possible to have the figures that were given by the Parliamentary Secretary circulated to Deputies?
The Parliamentary Secretary will try to see that that will be done.
It depends on the figures.
I take it the Deputy refers to the figures read out by the Parliamentary Secretary?
That is, the county figures.