Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 29 Oct 1941

Vol. 85 No. 1

Adjournment Debate—Control of Speculative Buying of Property.

General Mulcahy

I asked the Minister for Finance to-day if he would cause any inquiry to he made with a view to ascertaining the nature and extent of any speculative buying of (a) land, and (b) other property carried on by persons other than Irish-born persons since the beginning of the war emergency; and whether he proposes to take any measures to control or prevent speculation by such persons in land or other property. The Minister replied that, following certain inquiries he had made, he did not get any evidence of any such speculative buying of land and other property by persons other than Irish born persons and he did not feel called upon to take any such measures of the kind suggested in my question.

I raise the question now for the purpose of elucidating the matter a little and giving the Minister an opportunity of explaining the position a little more fully. One hears very often of the buying of property by persons other than Irish nationals—the buying, for instance, of ground rents in towns and cities. Recently one heard of the buying of house property and recently also one heard of speculative buying of land. If there is nothing in these statements and these rumours which are spreading and causing a certain amount of feeling and uneasiness, then I think any opportunity we can get of finding out the facts should be taken advantage of in order to stop those rumours and misrepresentations. Very often these things spread and they tend to create movements that have very undesirable reactions; they often react on matters that are far away from the original seat of the complaint.

So that, if only on the ground of stopping statements of this particular kind, it is essential that in some way or another we should get information about the matter. On the other hand, there are elements in the financial situation here and outside which would tend to speculative buying of this particular kind. If the Minister takes the amount of money that was in circulation in this country in 1920 after the last war — that is, in the whole of Ireland — and the total amount in circulation now, I think he will find that there is actually a reduction of 2 per cent. The total amount in circulation at the moment is about £222,000,000. That is about 2 per cent. below the amount in circulation in 1920. If, on the other hand, you take the position in Great Britain, the total amount of money in circulation in Great Britain at the present time is 82 per cent. more than the amount which was in circulation in 1920, or an increase of about £1,703,000,000. Now, an analysis of the war situation in Great Britain for the last two years will show that at least £1,100,000,000 of absolutely newly-created money has been put into circulation, and that is going to increase. So that of the increase of £1,700,000,000, or an increase of 82 per cent. in the amount of money circulating in Great Britain in 1940, a very large part has been created during the last two years. Accordingly, here we have a static situation with regard to our money volume, and a very extensive and growing money volume in Great Britain, and that at a time when the facilities for the utilisation of money in Great Britain are growing smaller and smaller. At the present time I suppose that a lot of the money in Great Britain has no other exit except that of the 2½ per cent. Defence Bonds: so that there is the great tendency and danger that among people whose roots, domiciliary and otherwise, are rather slight, that money would find a better speculative ground for working in this country than it would in Great Britain itself.

Now, I suggest that there is that kind of danger. We have taken certain precautions to see that such dollars as we can control do not pass out of the possession of our people or from under the control of the Government. If half the rumours you hear, or half the dangers that you might fear from this great inequality of loose money knocking around, are justifiable in any way, I suggest to the Minister that there is a danger of speculative buying of land and properties of that particular kind and that some kind of check, at any rate, ought to be instituted because, if a movement of that kind did develop, it might give rise to very serious problems here: the problem of the speculation itself as well as the problem of movements that might arise out of the feeling that there was alien buying of some of our foundation property here.

I directed the Minister's attention this morning to the fact that no person in Ireland can buy a lorry from another without getting a licence from, I think, the Minister for Industry and Commerce. I suggest that one way, at any rate, of beginning to put this situation under review and getting at the facts would be that the Minister would issue an emergency order to the effect that no person who was not an Irish born national could buy land, houses, rentals, and so on, unless he got from the Minister for Finance a licence to do so similar to the licence that a person would have to get here if he wanted to buy a lorry. That would be a small precaution, but I think it is very essential that we do get at the facts and clear our minds and that, in so far as it is a question of suspicion and rumour, we should protect our minds against the attacks that rumours and circulated false statements might give rise to, and that in so far as there is a danger of speculation in these matters, if that was actually going on, we should know about it and be in a position to take steps to prevent it.

Mr. McGilligan

Perhaps I might be permitted to add a word or two to what Deputy Mulcahy has said. The Minister may not be at the moment apprehensive of there being any great development along the lines suggested by Deputy Mulcahy's question this morning and what he has said to-night, but whether there is that apprehension in his mind or not, or whether there is any great development in that direction taking place immediately, it is quite clear that the situation is serious, and that if this country follows the lines that other countries followed in the last war, such a development is quite likely to take place here in the future. That danger undoubtedly exists. I do not say that it has necessarily developed to a great extent at the moment, and I do not know whether the situation presents itself to the Minister as being so serious as to warrant the passing of an emergency order, but could he not do this? If one does not take steps in the beginning to deal with what may appear to be small abuses, and waits until they have blossomed into big evils, the difficulty is that when one does intervene one hurts, not the original buyer, but possibly an innocent in-between buyer who has bought from the original purchaser. Could the Minister not say that if hereafter he finds that there has been any great speculation of an undesirable type done by people not of our country in regard to leaseholds, rentals or other such properties in this country, and finds it necessary to act, he will be ruthless in the expropriation of these original non-national speculators if it should become necessary to do so?

Minister for Finance (Mr. O Ceallaigh)

I do not think I would have any hesitation in giving a promise to the House that if I were satisfied that there was any case for dealing in a drastic way, or some way of the kind suggested by Deputy McGilligan, in connection with speculation in property by aliens in this country I would so deal with it. I do not think I would have any hesitation in giving such a guarantee to the House. But I have heard the rumours over the last year or two, to which Deputy Mulcahy referred — and I am sure others have heard them also—rumours of all sorts of people, alien in type, purchasing real estate, property, houses, lands, ground rents, and the like, all over the country, and when I was asked this question before—I had already made some inquiries—I made the fullest inquiry into the matter and, as far as I can make out, there is no basis at all in fact for that statement, none whatsoever. If I were to give ear to all the rumours I hear I would be doing nothing else but listening to them.

I am constantly hearing rumours of one kind or another and I would have no time for anything else if I were to give ear to them, and I suggest that the same applies to Deputy Mulcahy and other Deputies. We have had rumours since the war started about all sorts of things, especially about the State and its affairs, the Army and our external relations, alien activities here, and so on. There is not a day that I walk out of my door that I do not hear some extraordinary rumour bearing on matters of that kind. But in so far as this type of rumour is concerned, I have had every Department that might have knowledge requested to make inquiries, and the answer to me in all cases has been that there is nothing to justify anxiety in the matter. The Department of Industry and Commerce, the Department of Justice, and the Revenue Commissioners, have a variety of ways of getting information. I know that my own Department has ways of getting such information. Then there is the Department of Lands and the Land Commission, and they have many ways of testing whether there has been a transfer of land to aliens. The Registry of Deeds also has a means of checking, and there is also the Stamping Department through which every deed of any kind that has to be stamped in this country has to pass. I have had all those cases examined, but nothing whatsoever to give rise to any anxiety has happened with regard to speculation in land by aliens in the last two years. In those circumstances, I do not know that any safeguards of the kind that the Deputy has suggested are necessary. If there were any grounds for it, I would certainly consider taking steps to see that the situation would be safeguarded. I see no reason for doing that at present. There is no analogy in the case of the lorries, suggested by Deputy Mulcahy. Lorries have wheels under them, and can be taken out of the country very rapidly. You cannot put wheels under a farm, or under a house — not in this country. That kind of thing might be done in the United States, but not in Ireland. You cannot put wheels under real estate; you can put them under lorries, and it has been done to the disadvantage of the country, and done to such an extent that it was found necessary to have restrictions put upon the sale. If there were any prima facie case made out for taking action of the kind to restrict attempts by aliens to do what the Deputy suggests here, I would certainly lose no time in taking such steps.

General Mulcahy

Has the Minister taken into consideration the danger arising from the very great discrepancy in the monetary position, the financial position, between ourselves and Great Britain at the present time?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

That is an entirely different question.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.20 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, 30th October.