Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 May 1942

Vol. 86 No. 17

Committee on Finance. - Vote 53—Forestry.

An tAire Tailte (Tomás O Deirg)

Tairgim:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £124,814 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1943, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí i dtaobh Foraoiseachta (9 agus 10 Geo. 5, c. 58; agus Uimh. 34 de 1928), ar a n-áirmhítear Deontas-i-gCabhair chun Talamh do Thógaint.

That a sum not exceeding £124,814 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1943, for Salaries and Expenses in connection with Forestry (9 and 10 Geo. 5, c. 58; and No. 34 of 1928), including a Grant-in-Aid for Acquisition of Land.

I gcompráid le blianta eile, níl athrú mór ar bith anuas ná suas ar iomlán an ghlan-soláthair atáthar d'iarraidh sa Meastachán seo le haghaidh Foraoiseachta. Ach, dá ainneoin sin, do thárla cuid mhaith athruithe, i rith na bliana, ar chuid de phrímhghnéithe oibre Roinne na Foraoiseachta. Níor bhféidir oiread damhna d'allmhuiriú le haghaidh fálta, agus níor bhféidir síolta ar bith d'fháil as tíortha thar lear, agus do rinne an dá ní sin laghdú mór ar an bplanndáil ba phríomh-obair don Roinn sa ngnáth-shaol. Ach, má bhí an chailliúint sin ann, do bhí gnóthachan ann ba mhó ná í, mar gheall ar an ngannú trom do tháinig ar allmhuiriú adhmaid le haghaidh gnótha tráchtála agus le haghaidh teinte. Ar an Roinn Soláthairtí, dar ndó atá an príomh-chúram maidir leis na nithe riachtanachá sin; ach, ós ní go bhfuil Roinn na Foraoiseachta ar an sealbhóir foraoiseacht is mó sa tír, do tháinig sé de dhualgas ar an Roinn sin páirt mhór do dhéanamh i soláthar an adhmaid do bhí ag teastáil. Cibé athruithe atá ar bhun-fhigiúracha an Mheastacháin seo, atá a bhfurmhór ann de bhárr chora na héigeandála. Ag seo leanas príomh-athruithe na bhfigiúr ó bhí an bhliain seo thart ann.

Fó-Mhírcheann A—Tuarastail, Páigheanna agus Allúntais (£18,282)—An £2,000 nó mar sin de bhreis atá annseo, is é is príomh-chúis leis na mionmhéaduighthe foirne do rinneadh le haghaidh Cléireachais agus Cigireachta maidir le díol adhmaid agus le riarachán Achta Foraoiseachta 1928.

Fó-Mhírcheann C (1)—Talamh do Cheannach (£60,000)—Sa gcéadmheastachán do 1941-42, ní raibh ach £25,000 chun talamh do cheannach le haghaidh foraoiseachta, óir do bhítheas ag súil go rachadh an obair sin chun moille le linn na héigeandála. Ach do fuarthas amach, ina dhiaidh sin, go raibh an éigeandáil féin ina cúis le sóirt áirithe talmhan do bheith ar fáil ní ba réidhe chun a cheannuithe ná mar bheadh sé sa ngnáth-shaol, agus, mar sin de, do fuarthas £15,000 de bhreis-dheontas. Ina theannta sin, do bhí £6,036 d'fhuighleach ón mbliain roimh ré—rud d'fhág £16,036 de shuim iomlán ar fáil le haghaidh talamh do cheannach sa mbliain dár geionn. Ins an mbliain sin, 1941-42, do thárla £32,286 de chaiteachas glan as Ciste an Deontais-i-gCabhair, agus do húsáideadh £28,604 de sin i gceannach talmhan ar bh'achar iomlán dí 8,457¼ de acraí. Do fágadh £13,750 d'fhuighleach, agus idir sin agus an méid atáthar d'iarraidh i Meastachán 1942-43, do bheadh £73,750 de shuim iomlán ar fáil chun talamh do cheannach sa mbliain atá romhainn. Atá agam annseo figiúracha áirithe thaisbeánas an staid ina raibh gnótha ceannuithe talmhan, an ladh de Aibreán, 1942, agus gheobhfar uathasan tuairim éigin don caiteachas is dócha bheith ann i mbliana. San am sin, do bhí socruithe deimhne déanta do cheannach tailte áirithe ar luach dóibh £23,747 agus ar bh'achar iomlán dóibh 10,753¼ d'acraí. San am chéadna do bhí margaíocht ar cois chun 13,160 acra eile do cheannach ar £49,115 de luach iomlán. Dá bhfuighthí seilbh na dtailte sin go léir roimh dheireadh na bliana 1942-43, do bheadh tuairim is £75,000 de chaiteachas iomlán ann, £5,000, abair, ina theannta sin i gcóir cíos agus blianacht.

B'fhéidir, dar ndó, nach gcuirfí na margaíochta sin go léir i gcrích taobh istigh den bhliain, óir is minic a bhíos moill mhór ag baint le scrúdú teideal; ach is dóigh líom go bhféadfadh tailte nach iad sin do bheith le fáil. Daoine ag a bhfuil eastáit mhóra chrannacha, ní handóigh go sanntóchadh siad an luach árd atá le fáil ar adhmad fá láthair agus go ndíolfadh siad na crainn. Ina dhiadh sin, b'fhéidir go mb'fhearr leo an talamh do dhíol le Roinn na Foraoiseachta ná ath-phlanndáil do dhéanamh do réir choinníoll na gceadúnas chun crainn do leagan atá ann faoi Acht Foraoiseachta 1928. Dá ndéantaí roinnt mhargadh den tsórt sin do chur i gcrích gan mhoill, do thiocfadh cuid mhaith costais ar an Roinn mar gheall ortha. Ní dócha go mbeidh a leithéid de sheans ann athuair, agus ba tairbheach an ní seilbh d'fáil ar cibé éastáit a dtairgfear iad do dhíol. Gan amhras ar bith, ba socharach don náisiún oiread agus b'fhéidir de na mór-estáit chrannacha do theacht faoi stiúir na Roinne. Daoine príobháideacha a mbíonn a leithéidí aca, is annamh chuireas siad mór-scéimeanna planndála i gcrích mar ba chóir, óir bíonn an costas riachtanach thar chumas aca.

Fó-Mhírcheann C 2—Síolrú, Airíocht agus rl. (£209,471)—Is truagh liom é do bheith orm a innsint gur bh'éigean obair an tsioluithe do laghdú. Is é is cionntach le sin a ghainneacht atá na damhnaí—go háirithe miotal-sreang le haghaidh fálta. Ní féidir a leithéidi d'fháil as tíortha na hEorpa. Le tamall thart, do bhítheas ag féacháil le lón mór do mhiotal-líonta d'fháil as Americeá. Do fuarthas roinnt bheag ó am go ham; ach dá mbéadh na horduithe go léir le fáil féin ó na monarchain Americeánacha, is eagal liom go mba deacair áit d'fháil dóibh i longa anall. An £21,000 atá sa bhFó-Mhircheann seo le haghaidh damhna, do cuireadh ann é d'íoc ar son cibé miotallíon bhéas le fáil agus ar son a n-iompair chun na tíre seo. An soláthar le haghaidh Airíochta agus Oibríochta (£28,000), tá sé £1,000 níos lugha ná mar do bhí i Meastachán bliana roimh ré, agus is é is cúis le sin laghdú na hoibre bhaineas le fálú.

Faoi Fhó-Mhírcheann na hOibre bhaineas le Síolrú, do hiarradh £100,000 anuraidh, ach níl ach £80,000 dá iarraidh i mbliana. Do b'éigean an laghdú sin do dhéanamh mar gheall ar nithe nach bhfuil neart ag an Roinn ortha, e.g., gan oiread planndála do bheith dá dhéanamh ó thárla gann na damhnaí le haghaidh fálta. Mar is eól do na Teachtaí, do bhí an Roinn, le tamall thart, ag iarraidh na planndála bliantúla do mhéadú. Ins an mbliain roimh an éigeandáil do planndáileadh 7,600 acra; ach, i mbliain a 1940-41, do b'éigean teacht le 5,961 acra. Maidir leis an mbliain seo, ní dócha go bplanndálfar breis mhór ar bith agus 4,000 acra—gidh go bhfuil san áireamh sin tailte áirithe do fuarthas le goirid agus nach bhfuil fálú ag teastáil uatha. An lón beag de dhamhna fáluigthe atá againn, táthar ghá úsáid chomh tábhachtach agus is féidir; ach is beag nach cinnte go gcaithfear teacht le scéim laghduithe, an bhliain seo chugainn, freisin, muna n-éirighidh linn cuid mhaith damhna d'fháil as Americea. Tá an soláthar le haghaidh síolruithe dhá choinneáil ar scála laghduithe dá réir sin. Ach, dár ndóigh, déanfar gach dícheall chun oiread planndála agus is féidir do dhéanamh.

Ní gá dhom míniú ar bith do thabhairt uaim i dtaobh an tsoláthair de £50,000 le haghaidh lóin d'adhmad teineadh. Nuair a bhíos ag trácht le goirid ar an Meastachán Breise le haghaidh Foraoiseachta, do thugas colas do na Teachtaí faoi'n scéim tré n-a raibh an Roinn ag soláthar tuairim is 88,000 tonna d'adhmad teineadh do coinneóchthaí i dtaisce ag Comhlucht Allmhuirithe na nAdhbhar Teineadh. Do réir mar atá cúrsaí adhbhar teineadh fá láthair, is ró-chosúil go gcaithfear cromadh arís ar an obair seo chomh luath agus bhéas deireadh le hobair na planndála. Ach ní féidir, go fóill, a mheas cad é an méid d'adhbhar teineadh caithfear d'fháil ó Fhoraois-Thailte an Stáit sa mbliain atá romhainn. Mar sin de, níl sa £50,000 ach soláthar sealadach ar dócha breis do bheith ag teastáil ina theannta níos fuide anonn sa mbliain.

Fó-Mhírcheann C (3)—Oiriúnú Adhmaid (£5,964)—Faoi'n bhFó-Mhírcheann seo, tá soláthar breise dhá dhéanamh don tsaothar bheas riachtanach in oibriú muileann so-aistrithe sábhadóireachta. Do méaduigheadh líon na muileann seo sa gcaoi ina raibh seacht gcinn díobh ann anuraidh, agus gheobhfar a thuilleadh, más féidir sin. Tá na muilte seo an-oiriúnach do dhéanamh bloc le haghaidh teinte, agus tá an obair sin ar siul aca go lán-aimsireach fá lathair.

Fó-Mhírcheann H—Leithreasuithe-i-gCabhair (£94,940)—Táthar ag súil go dtiocfaidh méadú maith ar na fáltais ó Mhuilte Sábhadóireachta de thoradh an bhreise éilimh bhéas ar na bluic ghníthear ins na muilte so-aistrithe. Den méid atáthar a sholáthar, atáthar ag meas go bhfuighfear £10,000 ó Bhárdas Bhaile Atha Cliath, óir atá scéim ar cois tré n-a gcuirfidh an Roinn 12,000 tonna d'adhmad teineadh ar fáil don Bhárdas le n-a dháiliú.

Meastachán na bhfáltas ó Mhór-Dhíolacháin Adhmaid, do bhí £25,000 ann anuraidh, agus do laghduíodh sin go dtí £20,000 i mbliana. Is éigean do thionnscail na n-obair adhmaid damhna ár dtíre féin d'úsáid fá láthair, agus atá an damhna sin ag dul i ngainne go tapaidh. Mar sin de, atá an Roinn ag féacháil le caomhnadh do dhéanamh ar cibé adhmad foirbthe atá ar Fhoraois-Thailte an Stáit, ionnas go mbuanófar, chomh fada agus is féidir, an lón le haghaidh bun-riachtanas. Maidir leis an gcaomhnadh sin, tá Roinn na Soláthar ag aontú leis an Roinn seo. Ach, os a chomhair sin, atáthar ag reic, tré mhion-díolacháin áitiúla, níos mó ná an gnáth-mhéid d'adhmad—tanúcháin foraoiseach agus rl. —agus atá sin dá áireamh sa Mheastachán.

Ba é ba phríomh-chuspóir don Acht Foraoiseachta, 1928 cosc do chur ar leagan na gcrann as éadan, agus a chur in áirithe go ndéanfaí crainntailte d'ath-phlanndáil tar éis a mbearrtha. De thoradh an mhóiréilimh atá fá láthair ar adhmad le haghaidh gnóthaí tráchtála agus le haghaidh teinte, do cuireadh isteach i bhfad níos mó ná an gnáth-uimhir d'fhógraí leagain, agus fágann sin breis-ualach mór oibre ar a bhfuil againn d'oifigigh foraoiseachta—go háirithe ó do laghduíodh na gléasraí taistil. Tá gach dícheall dhá dhéanamh chun freastal tapaidh do thabhairt do na hiarratais, ach ní féidir gan roinnt áirithe mhoille do bheith ann. Atá Acht na Foraoiseachta i bhfeidhm le dhá bhliain déag, agus ar feadh an dá bhliain seo thart, do cuireadh coingheallacha an Achta in úil don phobal— go mór-mhór an coinníoll faoi na gcaithfidh fógra roimh ré do theacht chuige an Stáisiún Gárda is comhgaraí do bhaile ó dhuine ar bith ar mian leis crann do leagan. Dá ainneoin sin, tá leitreacha ag iarraidh ceada leagain dhá bhfáil gach lá, agus gan cruinnchuntas ar bith ionnta maidir le huimhir na gcrann, ná le n-a n-ionaid, ná leis an úsáid atáthar ag brath a dhéanamh den adhmad.

Do rinneadh gearán le goirid dhá rá gur chóir na riaghlacha do shimpliú i gcásanna daoine ar mhian leo uimhir an-bheag de chrainn do leagan ar a ngabháltais féin. I geás den tsórt sin, ní riachtanach don únaer ach an Fógra leagain do chur isteach chuig an Stáisiún Gárda is comhgaraí dhó; agus ní dóigh liom gur leathtrom mór ar bith an méid sin. I bhfurmhór mhór na gcás, ní diúltuítear don iarratas, agus, ar bheith caithte don tréimhse reachtúil (21 lá), is ceadmhach don iarrathóir dul ar aghaidh leis an leagan. Ach, do réir chosúlacha, is maith le mórán daoine an cead do ghlacadh gan a iarraidh agus gan áird ar bith do thabhairt ar choinníollacha Achta na Foraoiseachta. Ar an abhar sin, béidir nár mhisde dom a thabhairt de rabhadh uaim anois nach gceadófar a leithéid siúd d'obair, agus go gcuirfear an dlí i bhfeidhm in gach cás ina bhfuighfear fianaise go ndearnadh leagan ar bith gan an ceadúnas reachtúil do bheith fachta roimh ré. Go minic, gníthear leith-scéal gur riachtanach crainn do leagan mar gheall ar iad do bheith ina mbac ar threabhadh nó ar fhás barra; ach, sa gcas ina mbeadh sin amhlaidh, d'fhéadfaí an riachtanas d'fheiceáil roimh ré agus an fógra leagain do chur isteach san am cheart.

Do réir tuarascbhála atá dhá bhfáil, is cosúil go bhfuiltear ag leagan crann chun a ndóighte, gidh go bhfuil na crainn chéanna oiriúnach do ghnóthaí tráchtála. Ní ceart sin do dhéanamh. Ní féidir adhmad d'allmhuiriú d'fháil fá láthair, agus atá adhmad na tíre seo gann go maith mar atá sé. Ar an abhar sin, ní mór dúinn gan mí-úsáid do dhéanamh de chrainn atá oiriúnach don fhoirgneóireacht, do dhéantóireacht bosca, agus rl. Caithfear a gcaomhnadh le haghaidh na n-ócáidí sin, agus atá an Roinn Foraoiseachta ag comh-oibriú le Roinn na Soláthar ionnas go ndéanfar an caomhnadh atá riachtanach.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

This Estimate this year is dealing with a situation very different from the Estimate of previous years because the main question now in Ireland has become one of cutting down timber rather than of planting timber because, naturally, owing to the very high price at which marketable timber is going at the present moment, a great deal of timber has been cut and the Department is giving its sanction to such cutting very easily. I think the Department's policy in that respect is perfectly right because there is a great deal of timber in this country which is mature timber and this is the best time at which it could be cut down and made available. It will prove to be an advantage to the country that young trees will take the place of these trees which have already reached maturity and some of which have passed maturity. But certain difficulties seem to me to occur. One of them is that trees are now being cut down and the Department is allowing, by its licences, something like two or three years for the replanting of the areas from which timber has been cut. It has occurred to me that that will become a very difficult, if not an impossible, proposition unless the Department now looks forward and takes certain steps.

At the present moment there are only a very limited number of nurserymen in Ireland and they are carrying a very limited amount of stock. It seems to me that the demands upon the stock which the nurserymen have will not enable persons who wish to replant to get the particular kind of trees which they want and, even if they get the particular species, they will not be able to get good plants. I would like to know if the Minister is satisfied that the enormous number of trees which will be required can be provided by the nurserymen of this country. If they cannot, will provision be made either by the Department itself growing them—which I do not think is desirable, because I do not want to see the Department in competition with commercial firms—or by importing them so that persons who are replanting their lands will have proper young trees to plant?

Take for example the case of larch. I look upon larch as far and away the most valuable of all timbers that can be grown in Ireland. I look upon larch, certainly for home use, as being the most valuable timber. It is wanted for carts, for posts, for gates. It is wanted for everything the farmer needs. I happened the other day to get a catalogue from one of the most prominent growers of trees in this country, a nurseryman who has establishments in three different counties. There is not a single larch tree mentioned in his catalogue and seemingly he has no larch trees for sale. For that reason, I want now to draw the attention of the Department to the difficulties which may arise, and which, in my judgment, almost must arise when the demands for trees, possibly running into millions, will be sent to the nurserymen in this country and the nurserymen will not be able to fill them. Of course, as I suppose every Deputy in this House who is interested in this subject knows, the Department have more or less a rule of thumb that wherever one tree has been cut another ten trees must be planted.

Considering that a great deal of timber is being cut, it must be obvious to everybody that the number of young trees required will be tremendous. It is obvious, also, that you cannot grow with success every class of tree upon every class of land. In that respect, I should like to say that I think the inspectors of the Department of Forestry give very considerable assistance to persons who are selling timber, because not only do they carry out an examination as to whether the timber should be cut and a permit granted but they also give very great help and advice as to the correct kind of timber to grow upon particular classes of land.

Dealing with that question of reafforestation, and the condition that ten trees should be planted to take the place of every one that is cut, I am beginning to wonder whether, in fact, that policy is being carried out. I am not now talking of the cutting down that is taking place since the war began because, obviously, replanting could not take place in every instance since this large-scale felling started, but I know places all over the country where formerly there were well-timbered demesnes. These demesnes were bought up and the timber was cut down, and I do not see a single one of them replanted not do I see any replanting going on. I should like to know from the Minister whether the Department have ever prosecuted anyone for cutting down timber and not replanting, whether, in fact, that provision for replanting is not tending to become rather a dead letter. There may have been prosecutions, and I am sure a number of persons have carried out their undertaking to replant, but I am equally certain that, as in the case of the Tillage Order, there were other persons who were very slow in carrying out their obligations. It seems impossible for me to believe that everybody who was bound to replant has replanted and that in all these cases of failure to plant prosecutions have taken place. It struck me that possibly the explanation is that the Department really have got no machinery to ascertain whether replanting has or has not been adequately and properly carried out. If I am wrong in that, I should like the Minister to tell me so. I should like to know how this policy of replanting is, in fact, being enforced.

Listening to the Minister's speech, if I might describe it as listening—I read the translation—it struck me that there is a great deal of timber in this country which is valuable for firewood and which is worthless otherwise. As everybody knows, there were very large plantings in this country which stopped about 70 or 80 years ago, but very few persons continued these plantings because they were not expert foresters. As a consequence, there is a great quantity of crooked beech and scrub ash which is magnificent firewood but which has no commercial value otherwise. The Department might consider the question of making inquiries in the vicinity of sawmills as to the amount of such timber that is available. I should like also to know from the Minister what is the experience of the Department with reference to the cutting up of firewood by means of the Wade portable saw. I should like to be informed if any of these saws and cross-cuts which are driven by a very small engine are available or if the Department could make them available to persons who are anxious to cut wood for fuel, and who find difficulty in doing so, owing to the cost of labour. I think most Deputies have seen these saws at work; they were always exhibited at the Dublin Spring Show. One saw them there cutting through immense trunks of beech. It strikes me that if these could be made available to persons who have such timber on their lands for the speedy cutting up of scrub wood, hazel and white-thorn, all of which make excellent firewood, a good deal might be done to help the fuel situation. I fully agree with the concluding remarks of the Minister that timber which is valuable should not be permitted to be cut up for firewood when there is such a terrific quantity of other timber which is absolutely uneconomic and worthless for any other purpose other than firewood.

Seosamh O Cinnéide

'Sé mo thuairim gur ceart níos mó airgid a sholáthar ins an Bhóta seo. I am sorry that a larger amount is not provided in this Vote. The late Deputy T.D. Dowdall was a very keen advocate of reafforestation and I remember an occasion when Deputy Boland was Minister in this Department there was an argument between him and the late Deputy Dowdall as to the necessity for afforestation in this country. One of the arguments put up by the Minister then was that there could be no comparison, say, between France and this country, because in France they utilised a very large proportion of their timber resources for firewood. Now, at present we are using a very big portion of our timber for fuel as they do in France, and if we are planning for the future we shall have to plan for the provision of timber as firewood. Another former Minister, Mr. Connolly, said that the best investment this country could make would be 1,000,000 acres of timber. We also see that there is an acute shortage of paper as a result of the war, and we are told by the paper manufacturers that if they had the requisite machinery here, they could utilise the soft timbers for the manufacture of paper. That is the best argument in favour of what Mr. Connolly advocated, that we should go ahead with a very big forestry scheme to supply our future needs.

I certainly agree with Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney that the rule in regard to the planting of young trees to replace trees that have been cut is not being enforced. I see from my own observations it is not being enforced. There is also the fact that the period left to an individual to plant trees to replace timber which has been cut is very indefinite. I remember three years ago asking an official about an area in my constituency, and I pointed out that although it was three years since a wood had been cut there, nothing had been done in the way of replanting: "Oh," he replied, "we do not consider three years long." I asked him: "Do you consider four years long?""No," he said, "nor five years." Then I asked: "Have you any definite period?" and he replied: "No, we have no definite period."

Experts tell me that you can start to replant immediately after cutting timber. I saw it done. I think that the thinning of trees is not being looked after by the forestry section. I spent a considerable time in Germany and the thinning of forests, both with machinery and with man-power, is one of the principal operations carried on by the Forestry Department there. The undergrowth is cut down and thinnings utilised for national purposes. In my county, which is supposed to be one of the best forestry areas, and within two miles of my home, there are belts that were planted by the county council 30 years ago in which trees are now smothering each other. No effort was made to thin out these woods. As a forestry unit has been established there, I suggest to the Minister that these belts, which were grown by pioneers in the forestry movement, should be taken over and made healthy, so that they would produce suitable soft and hard timber.

I should like to see the Forestry Department manned by people trained in the universities, and holding university degrees. They should do a course at Avondale and work themselves up by doing practical work, and after spending years out-of-doors be able to progress and control the Forestry Department. It is only by such a scheme that forestry work would be of national benefit. I am not sure if it is the Minister's responsibility, but I should like to know what progress has been made in the drying of native timber, to make it useful for indoor and other classes of work for which foreign timber is not now available. About three years before the war began a big timber firm from Staffordshire came to this country and purchased all the ash they could secure for use in aeroplanes. British aeroplanes have been made from Irish ash. That firm wanted to establish a plant here, and the Minister for Industry and Commerce gave them every facility, but they could not agree to the terms, whereby 51 per cent. of the capital would be held in Ireland. They disproved the contention that Irish timber is no good, because the manager, whom I know personally, told me that outside of Polish ash they could get nothing to touch Irish ash. They bought up all the woods in which they could find ash.

It is of importance to this nation that a drying process should be in operation in our saw-mills. The gentleman that I mentioned described the saw-mills here as being most primitive and almost 50 years out of date. While there is not much money available for forestry, the work done by the Department in my county has been excellently done. The Department had a German adviser and it is possible to see that where his advice was availed of excellent work was done. There does not seem to be the same activity now. The work done in my county was excellent and I wish it could be extended. I should like to see a felling of trees where it is absolutely necessary to provide firewood, but these trees should be replaced, and for that reason the sooner the Government makes more money available for the Department the better.

Mr. Everett

I regret that the Estimate has been reduced since last year, but the Minister has explained the circumstances. I am sorry that the cultural side had to suffer, but the Minister stated that the Department were unable to procure seeds and plants. If there was any year in which extra planting was required it was this year in order to replace the trees that have been cut down for firewood. Deputies should realise the work that has been accomplished by the Department in the way of providing cheap firewood for poor people. If that had been left to private enterprise, or if there was no competition, I wonder would the people in Dublin or the Dublin Corporation have been able to secure the cheap timber they got from the State forests? They were able to get it on terms that kept down the price that would be charged by private individuals, by shopkeepers and others who wished to get rich quick. Poor people were charged 1d. and 2d. each for wet logs. It is a pity the Dublin Corporation did not get into touch with the Forestry Department earlier. I observe that the corporation is now purchasing 12,000 tons of such timber. I notice that the Department have not increased the wages of the men who are cutting the logs. These men are giving as useful service as the turf workers.

We find, however, that these poor men are kept at the one old wage of 29/4 per week, with no tea allowance or any other concession. If the Minister had gone through some of the woods during the past month he would have seen these men trying to exist and do their work on nothing but black bread—no butter, or even lard, for them, or anything else—and they are expected to work on that job, in the rain and the cold, at 29/4 a week because they remained loyally here in the country to give of their best to the country in this time of emergency. They are receiving less now in wages than the agricultural worker, while a man who had been working beside them and who joined the Construction Corps is costing the State 37/6 a week. The man who joins the Construction Corps only has to work a few hours in the day, but the man who loyally gave his service to this forestry work receives the miserable pittance of 29/4. The Minister said, in March last, that that matter was receiving attention, and now the turf workers have been offered higher wages simply because they have been on strike. An inducement has been offered to the turf workers to continue working, but no similar inducement has been offered to the forestry workers, who remained at their work during the emergency, giving of their best in return for a miserable pittance.

One complaint that I have to make in connection with the work of this Department is that in one area, around Aughrim, ten men out of 15 were selected for a small increase in wages. Now, that creates dissension. Where you have permanent men who have been working there for years, without any complaint being made against any of them, and you select ten out of 15 for a slight increase in wages, that does not tend towards harmony. I wish to pay a tribute to the Department, generally, however, with regard to their methods of promotion. As one who has been in contact with the foremen and inspectors of the Forestry Department, and as one who has had some knowledge and interest in that Department, I must certainly say that my experience is that the inspectors and foremen are men who throughly understand their work and who can always help any Deputy in any difficulty and instruct him in matters affecting him. The officials are most courteous in every way, from those on the lowest rung of the ladder to the highest. I think that if some Deputies had more intercourse with these men they would appreciate that they are men of great practical experience. One thing that I admire about the Department is that, through scholarships and so on, every chance is given to the labouring men and the foremen, and there is no bar to promotion in that section.

When we come to consider the emergency work of providing fuel, why should not the Minister make strong representation to the Minister for Supplies for equal treatment for the men engaged in forestry work? Is it not within the Minister's power to make a strong representation that these men should be supplied with tea in the same way as are the turf workers? They are often out from 7 o'clock in the morning and have to make long journeys, and there is no possible chance for them to get food from 7 o'clock in the morning until they get home that evening. A number of them are married men, and I know that some of them, because they have no milk, take black tea with them, and that others, because they have a large number of children, do not take any tea with them because they might be depriving their children. The result is that many of them go to work on black bread and tea, and some of them without tea. Is it not the duty of the Government to show a good example, particularly in the case of their permanent employees? The men engaged on this particular work should get at least sufficient to allow them to exist. Instead of that, we find that their wages to-day are what they were three years ago. There has been no increase. First, the argument was that they should be treated as agricultural workers for insurance purposes, but the moment the wages of agricultural workers were increased, we were told that they could not be treated now on the same scale as agricultural workers because it might interfere with work on the farms and because the agricultural labourer is paid full time. Very few farmers in my area cut a man's time because of a wet day. There is always some work for him, and he is always in constant employment. Besides that, he receives a bonus after the harvest. There is no argument to be made, so far as the forestry sections in County Wicklow are concerned at least, that if their wages were increased it would interfere with the wages for agricultural workers. I am sure that the officials of the Forestry Department will agree with me that there is not an agricultural labourer for nine or ten miles around the locality I am referring to. Where you have men engaged at the present time on forestry work, there is no farm work available. They are all small farms there, and very few of them would have any employees, with the exception of one farmer, about ten miles away, and that farmer never employs more than about five men on his farm. The others are all small men. Therefore, the argument that if the Department were to increase the wages of the forestry workers it would interfere with agricultural workers in that area, cannot be sustained.

I regret that this Estimate has been reduced. I think the Minister stated that we have not a sufficient number of trees in our own nurseries for replanting, but I appeal very strongly that the Department should make representations to have a certain amount of work done in connection with replanting, not for the building of aeroplanes and so on, as Deputy Kennedy suggested, but for other purposes. For instance, I am anxious that our Gaelic games should be kept alive, and if there is not a sufficiency of ash in the country the games will deteriorate for want of ash for hurleys. There is also the matter of the preservation of game. I am sorry to hear that our nurseries are not able to supply all the trees that may be required for the extra acreage of land that will be acquired for forestry purposes because, as I have pointed out, it is more essential now than ever that we should redouble our efforts in planting trees, considering that we saw thousands of tons of timber being brought down from County Wicklow, by rail and lorry, during the past 12 months, to be used for fuel. I can see, of course, the difficulties that could be made in connection with the granting of permits and so on. Every Deputy, probably, would be asked to get permission for somebody to cut trees for firewood and so on, but how long can that continue? How long can the wholesale cutting down of woods and belts of trees all over the country continue, especially if we are not redoubling our efforts this year in replanting? Unfortunately, under the Estimate, we shall have a smaller number of men employed on planting young trees this year. One excuse is that we are unable to get the necessary fencing from another country. Now, I am sure that wire would not be necessary in all cases, and I think there could be other means found to deal with that matter without going to great expense. At any rate, that should not prevent the employment of the large number of men that are available in Wicklow on planting trees and making preparations for next October. I could understand it in the case of certain areas where you are taking over portion of a large estate, but that does not happen in County Wicklow.

I appeal again to the Minister to make some statement with regard to the wages paid to forestry workers, because I do not believe they will continue to work much longer on the miserable wage they are receiving. They have been waiting patiently, and I am sure that the Minister is aware of the loyal service they have given, and I think it is very bad on the part of the Government not to recognise the position of these men owing to the present cost of living. Every one of these men could have been earning £5 or £6 a week over in England, but they were waiting, hoping against hope that something would be done for them. As one who has been in close touch with, probably, over 1,000 of them, I can assure the Minister that unless something is done they will not continue working there but will seek other work that is available in the area. If they are not able to get farm work there is turf work on which they might get employment. At the other side they are looking for men and are holding out big inducements to them to take employment.

I hope the Minister will not attempt to justify a wage of 29/4 a week as being sufficient for those married men. Some of them are engaged on dangerous work in the saw-mills. If they were employed by merchants who own saw-mills they would be in receipt of a trade union wage. They are not receiving that from the Department. Some of them are working in the saw-mills for 30/- a week, while men in charge are only getting 40/-. We have the position in the County Wicklow that Dublin shopkeepers are coming down there buying trees and becoming timber merchants. They are offering big wages to workers. Right opposite one of the State forests a Dublin merchant has purchased a wood and is paying double and treble the wages that the men employed by the Department are getting. He is paying even more than some of the foresters are getting, and has guaranted the men six months' work. Surely, if Dublin employers can afford to do that, the Government should give a lead by giving a reasonable increase in wages to their workmen, some of whom have had ten and 15 years' service. I want to take this opportunity of thanking the inspectors, foremen and all others concerned for the advice and assistance they have given to me during a very difficult time in the last 12 months in connection with these workmen. I appreciate their service and their help very much. There were no disputes and no trouble, thanks to their tact. In all the State forests in the county I received every assistance from all those officials. I am sure the country will appreciate their action, because otherwise settlements might not have been arrived at. We have had peace in the industry and the men have given loyal service. I trust their action will be appreciated by the Minister, and that he will make some announcement indicating that the Department is prepared to accede to the demands they have been making during the past 12 months.

Mr. Brennan

If Britain were in control of the country, as she was at one time, and presented an Estimate of this sort for forestry, I wonder what we would have to say about it. I well remember what people used to say before we got our independence as to what we could make out of forestry if the country were under our control. It is possible, of course, that we did exaggerate somewhat at that time. I am certain, however, that if a foreign Government brought in an Estimate of this sort, at this time, we would all be very disgusted with it, and loud in our denunciations of the Government that did it. We would say that if we were in authority we would be able to make a success of forestry, and would bring in a very different Estimate. I am not prepared to advocate that this country should be converted into an extensive forest or that we should have extensive forests here and there linked up with one another. It is possible that if we did that it would be an injustice to the people because we cannot afford to plant good arable land with timber. But we have thousands and thousands of acres of land that is not good arable land which could be planted, land that is no use for other purposes, and yet we do nothing about it. Owing to war restrictions, questions of finance and various other things it may be held that this is not an opportune time for doing much in that direction. I would remind the House, however, that an emergency period very often brings out the best that is in people. I am sure every Deputy will agree with me on that. The Land Commission Vote was under discussion up to a very short time ago, and for the purposes of my arguments may I refer to the great difficulty that existed up to the time of the emergency in getting turf banks allocated to people all over the country, and, in fact, getting the Land Commission interested in turf? But when the emergency came, the Land Commission, so to speak, took off its coat, and gave turf banks to everyone. If this emergency educates us as to the future possibilities of this country, so far as the growing of timber is concerned, then possibly some good will have come out of it.

Some Deputy said that this country could afford to have 1,000,000 acres of forestry. It could, but how are we to arrive at that position? We are not going to do so on the basis of this Estimate. We cannot possibly hope to carry through a decent forestry programme on the basis of this Estimate. We find that there are 60 people engaged on the administrative side of the Department, and 122 people on agricultural operations and maintenance. That is, of course, apart from the ordinary labour employed in the forests. If we are going to have a forestry scheme for the country it will have to be a considered one by people with technical knowledge, and possibly by people who have not technical knowledge but who feel that what has been done in other countries could be done here. At the present time we have young men clearing out of the country for want of work, and at the same time Estimates being presented to this House which make heavy demands on the taxpayers to provide employment for people. But what employment have we ever provided? Nothing, so far as I know, that will result in the creation of a national asset. Expenditure on forestry would provide a national asset.

I remember the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance saying that he was most anxious to get schemes on which he could put men working. But the next thing that happened was there was a shortage of fuel, and the men were diverted to the bogs. That is useful work, but it does not create very much of an asset for the future. I would not have any fear that if we borrowed £5,000,000 for forestry we would get it repaid. It would mean the creation of a national asset if we went the right way about it. It may not be possible to do that now. It certainly cannot be done on the type of Estimate that we have before us, or with the type of mind that we have behind that Estimate. I am not finding fault either with the officials in the Forestry Branch or with the Minister.

They have had a kind of legacy handed down to them, a kind of tinkering with forestry, so that we have not yet made a real start in forestry. While we follow the course that we cannot take over land and plant it unless we can link up that particular portion with some other portion and put a forestry official in charge, we will never get anywhere. We must eventually, if we are to make it a success, adopt some scheme whereby we will get the five acres, the ten acres, the 20 acres and the 100 acres planted, wherever they are. Certain people who are very interested in forestry and who have had experience of it in other countries were endeavouring to put across in this country a scheme whereby we would have very extensive forests. I do not think you can ever have that, and I should not like to see that. This other idea of getting all the land that is not useful for other purposes but is useful for forestry, planted in small patches, will have to be tackled sometime and somehow. I do not know who will be the pioneer in it, but until we do that we will not get anywhere with forestry.

I notice that in his opening statement the Minister referred to the acquisition of land and stated that it takes time and that the question of title causes delays. Of course it does; it always has. I understood that we had got over that difficulty under the Land Acts where land is being acquired for the purpose of redistribution. Is it possible that that has not been extended to forestry? If that is so, then we ought to extend it to forestry. If we acquire land for redistribution and, instead of delaying possibly for years in order to look into the question of title and who is to get the price of it, we take a short cut, as we have done by an Act of this House, is it possible that we have still the question of title to land which is being acquired for forestry in the position in which originally the title to land was placed in regard to redistribution? The Minister says it is unlikely that all these negotiations will be completed within the year as the investigation of title is frequently a slow process. If there is a short cut in connection with that in regard to the acquisition of land for redistribution, that short cut ought to apply in the case of forestry, and if it is necessary for this House to pass any Act, that ought to be done. There is no use in trying to tackle it in a piecemeal way. The work is there waiting for the unemployed and for the young men in the country. It will take people with strong minds and with vigour and energy to tackle the matter properly. There are acres of land which want draining for the purpose of forestry and acres of land that want to be cleared of scrub for the purpose of forestry. There is nobody bothering his head about that.

I have no doubt, as I said in the beginning, that if this country was governed by an outside Government we would be all up in arms against an Estimate of this sort and against the inactivity of the Government in regard to forestry. At present bogs are being developed and turf being cut where it was never cut before. I should like to know if, in connection with these developments, an eye is being kept by somebody on behalf of the Forestry Department, whether it is the Land Commission that do it or otherwise, to see that when bogs are cut out to a certain extent accommodation will be left for planting. In the past, bogs have been cut out and left in slush, so that they are no good for anything. What I am afraid of is that there is no foresight in connection with this policy and nobody making any bold attempt to deal with the matter. An Estimate of this sort might be useful for a part of the country or for a county. One country should be able to absorb the amount of work provided for. As I said, it may be alleged that the present is not an opportune time. I do not agree with that. I think the present time, when people are shouting for work, when people are leaving the country for work, and when people are seeking for work at the labour exchanges and cannot get it, is the time to tackle it. If we are borrowing money, let us borrow money for something of this nature. There ought not to be any fear about doing it.

There are some small matters in the Estimate to which I might draw attention; but the thing, to my mind, is so trivial that we ought to direct our attention to having a bold policy of afforestation for the country. I have stated that in this House on a previous occasion and I am restating it to-day. As it is presented, I think the whole thing is trivial. I think it will get us nowhere. We ought to attack it boldly, and we ought to keep in mind what the emergency has taught us. It has taught that if we had more timber we would not be in the position we are to-day with regard to fuel, wood pulp, and timber for building purposes. If we are to have self-sufficiency in any branch, let us have it in the branch in which it is possible for us to have it without any loss, indeed with a definite gain in income and as a definite asset to the country. This is not a case of investing money in industries where you have to import raw materials and where you may not be able to import them. Here is a definite national asset which should be tackled. Nobody has yet tackled it. I hope that somebody will have the brains and the energy to say: "This is something that can be made into a good national asset and which will absorb the unemployed. This is something which will give work to the people who want work, which will give a living to those who are at present on the dole. It must be tackled boldly; go ahead and have it done."

Mr. F.H. Crowley

I wish to touch upon a few points in connection with the Estimate. One is the question of wages. I have been approached by number of forestry workers about this matter and I know the conditions under which they work and the distance from home at which they generally have to work. I think that the Minister should seriously consider raising the wages of the forestry workers. I will take one case, and that is, the scheme in operation in Killarney district. On an average, the workers live a distance of six or seven miles from the forestry scheme. The plantation goes up from the bottom of a mountain to about 500 feet above sea level. The result is that very often it takes a man about one and a half hours to get to his work and one and a half hours to get home again. The men cannot get any hot meals except they light a fire on the mountainside. They are probably 11 or 12 hours without what you might call a real hot meal. I am fairly satisfied that, in justice to the workers, the wages should be brought from 29/4 per week at least to the agricultural rate of wages of 33/-. If the wages are not brought up to that point I am afraid that the Forestry Department will find that they will have a very small staff. A number of men have come to me and asked me to assist them to go to England. I told them I understood there was a certain amount of work on the forestry schemes and I got in touch with the supervisor of the scheme in Killarney and he was good enough to take them on. But they are kicking at the moment and it is up to the Minister, if he wishes to see a development in forestry, to increase wages.

I suggest that the Department should extend their efforts to acquire land for the development of forestry schemes and to proceed as soon as possible with the drainage of lands that are considered suitable. I know there is a shortage of fencing, especially of wire netting, but nothing should stop the Department from going ahead with drainage. That would mean the employment of quite a lot of labourers. In addition, I suggest that they should increase the forestry centres. I have been in the Department on a number of occasions, particularly with reference to the district of Cordal, near Castleisland, where suitable land has been offered. It has been certified as suitable for plantation purposes, but no scheme has yet been started in that area. In the district of Kilgarvan there is an area of 500 or 600 acres and the land there formerly grew trees. I think it could be brought under a forestry scheme. I should like again to stress the importance of the wages question. If the Minister does not deal soon with this matter of wages, it is my opinion that he will find very few men working under forestry schemes next winter.

Mr. Brodrick

In this Estimate it is somewhat remarkable to see that there is a reduction of something over £43,000. For the past ten years, indeed since the present Government came into office and perhaps for some time before that, one could see posters on almost every gateway indicating what Fianna Fáil would do with this country in the matter of tree planting. After the passage of so many years, to see the Fianna Fáil Government reducing the Forestry Estimate by such a large amount is certainly startling. The reduction is made at a time when there is a greater demand for Irish timber than there has been in the last decade. If one travels by road or rail in any part of the country, one cannot fail to see lorry loads and train loads of timber. I admit the Government have done something in the matter of afforestation, but they have barely touched the fringe of the problem and the reduction in the Estimate rather indicates that they are not prepared to do much more than touch the fringe.

Three years ago, on the Forestry Estimate, I referred to the area of land in Connemara that was quite suitable for tree planting. So far as I can recollect, I think the area was given at 185 acres. That area was increased to a small extent later. The calculation was made by experts who apparently did not know this country. It was given by experts who came from another country, and apparently they based their estimate on some planting that had been done in and about Carna by the Congested Districts Board. That planting was done by people who did not seem to know very much about tree planting, because the scheme failed. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will be able to tell us that an area in excess of 185 or 200 acres is about to be planted in such a suitable locality as Connemara. I am glad that Deputy Bartley is here, because he may be able to let us know what is being done in that portion of the country.

I observe that the sub-head covering cultural operations is down by about £43,000. Is that an indication that the Forestry Department is prepared to do its job? Last year the Parliamentary Secretary promised us that the Government would reduce the minimum area for tree planting purposes from 300 acres to 50 acres. Until that time we were always told that it was not economic to plant less than 300 acres. I should like to know how many properties of 50 acres have been planted in the meantime, or has there been any attempt to acquire such land. I suggest that some help should be given to people even with smaller lots, such as 25 acres, in order to enable them to carry out planting schemes on waste land.

I find in some districts that land suitable for small holdings is being planted. I am not an authority on tree planting, but people tell me that some lands are let go waste and, when questions are asked, the only answer is that it is not economic to plant. We were all told in our schooldays that in order to have a fertile country it was necessary to have trees. I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to use his influence and encourage afforestation. If the Minister for Finance were here, I would ask him to increase the estimate by the amount of the reductions indicated here.

The quantity of timber that is leaving the wooded areas at the present day is enormous, and I should like the Forestry Department to consider the whole matter very seriously. The Parliamentary Secretary has indicated the difficulty of getting title in respect of certain lands and also the difficulty of fixing a price. I should like to know what provision is being made in the Department for replanting the lands on which timber is now being cut. It I should not be difficult to make provision for the replanting of such land, seeing that most of it is already in the possession of the Department. I also find in the country districts that a lot of the timber is going beyond its commercial value. I know certain districts that will be of very little use after five or seven years. There are large properties on which the timber is being cut, and I think some provision for replanting in those places should be made immediately. The land is in the possession of the Department.

I also know of cases where people are anxious to cut beech for fuel purposes. During the past few months they purchased 100 feet here or 200 feet there, and now they have been refused permits. Beech is good for fuel, and it is very little use standing on the land. If people are anxious to cut 100 beech trees why should not the Department give the permit and stipulate that some more useful wood should be planted? If they did that, they would get people interested, but they cannot get people interested when the heads of the Department are not really interested. I say that because with the cut in the Estimate they will not be able to deal with the situation at the present time. It may not be their fault that the Estimate is cut, but I think the Minister should take the matter up seriously because, at the rate at which timber is being cut at the present time, there will be very little timber left in this country after a few years.

A lot of timber is being used for building purposes, and there is one offence in which I found, 12 months ago, the greatest culprits are the Land Commission, that is, cutting timber one day, sawing it the next day and putting it into houses the day after. Whoever gets these houses will have arrears of annuities because they will have to leave the houses in which such timber is used. I would like to know what action the Government are taking towards providing sufficient drying plant in the country. There is one—whether it is operative or not at the present time I could not say— but drying plant should be provided for timber that is going to be used in public buildings by the Board of Works, the Land Commission and other local authorities, and in all housing at the present time. It is a waste of money to be using unseasoned timber for building purposes. Drying plant should be provided and the timber should be brought up to a standard as closely approximating to well-seasoned imported timber as possible.

There is another order made by the Land Commission with which I do not at all agree. Where they accept tenders, say, from Dublin, Cork, or Limerick merchants for cutting timber they have made an order in my district that that timber can be cut only by the officials of the Forestry Department. That is most unfair. This is a very recent order and I know very well where it applies. I think it is most unreasonable that when any Cork, Dublin, Limerick, Waterford or Galway merchant buys a wood, it is stipulated that it will have to be cut by Forestry Department workers. The Forestry Department men will come in the winter time and will go to what they call a bog wood. The wood may not even be cut to the merchants' requirements. The Forestry Department have plenty of work to do in cutting waste timber for fuel purposes for the cities without interfering with private merchants who are paying a good price for the wood and for labour.

Deputy Crowley mentioned wages. Wages seem to be a snag down the country also. The Dublin, Limerick or Cork merchant may be paying 36/9 a week, or something like that, for an eight-hour day. The Forestry Department are not paying that. Then trouble always arises. You have two sets of men in the same wood, one set working for over 30/- a week and another set working for under 30/- a week. There should be some rearrangement.

My main concern is that the work of afforestation should be expedited and that we should not be told year after year that there is trouble in acquiring land. We have heard every year for the last number of years that there is trouble in acquiring land, in fixing prices and in the matter of title. I would appeal to the Minister to see that, as soon as trees are cut down, plans are ready to replant immediately. I would next appeal to him to see that where trees have passed maturity they should be cut down and the area replanted straight away, and that where the ordinary merchant buys trees for fuel to supply the city at present he should get some consideration and that permits should be granted. I hope the Minister or the Government will consider the question of providing drying plant for timber that is being cut down for building purposes, and that the Minister will give us some definite reply as to what the proposals are in regard to Connemara or whether districts in Connemara have been examined as to their fitness for planting.

Mr. Corish

It is an extraordinary thing that this year above every other year the Estimate for afforestation should be reduced, when one considers that at the present time the country is being denuded of timber and that desperate efforts should be made by the Forestry Department to replace what has been taken away in the past year. One wonders if any preparations at all are being made for the replacement of the timber that has been taken away. Of course, it has been stated by the Minister, and I suppose he will say it again, that there is difficulty at the moment in getting trees and seedlings.

General MacEoin

None whatever.

Mr. Corish

I do not know whether that is true or not. I am rather doubtful as to the accuracy of that statement but, even if it were true, preparations should be made in various parts of the country to prepare the ground for the time when the seedlings or young trees will be available. To my mind, the Forestry Department are not taking a serious interest in the question of providing timber in this country. One important matter has been mentioned by Deputy Brodrick, namely, the question of providing drying plant for timber that is used for building or commercial purposes. As he said, in various parts of the country, timber is being cut down and used in houses and buildings a day or two after it has been cut down.

As Deputy Brodrick said, that is not a very wise policy, because anybody who knows anything about timber knows that that kind of timber will shrink or expand or warp. Any building in which timber of that kind is used will collapse in a very short space of time. I would suggest to the Minister that some effort should be made by his Department to secure that drying plant is established in different parts of the country with a view to getting timber seasoned for building purposes. Even if the war were over in the morning, there would be such a demand for foreign timber in England and other countries where there has been large-scale demolition owing to aerial warfare, that foreign timber will not be available to this country for a number of years. I think I am right in that statement. Therefore, the sooner the Ministry and the Government generally see to it that some drying plant is secured so as to provide timber for building and other purposes, the better.

With regard to the question of wages which was raised by Deputy Crowley, Deputy Brodrick and others, I cannot understand the mentality of this Government at all. It seems to be moving in the direction all the time of a low standard of living and low wages for the workers under their control. I have heard Deputy Crowley referring to the fact that in Kerry men are working on afforestation for 28/- or 29/- a week, while the agricultural labourer has 33/- a week. I remember a few years ago raising the question of forestry workers' wages in this House, and we were told that the men engaged in forestry would always be given the same wages as the agricultural labourers. As a matter of fact, we were told that in some cases men working on afforestation would be paid a little more than the men engaged on agriculture. Now we have a situation in which the men engaged on afforestation, although I suppose it is agricultural work, are paid 4/- or 5/- per week less. Surely the Minister will agree that that is very inequitable, to say the least of it, and that something should be done immediately to secure that the wages of the forestry worker will be on the same plane as those of the agricultural worker.

I notice that under sub-head C 3— Timber Conversion—sawyers, enginemen and labourers are employed— sawyers at 40/- a week and labourers at 30/- a week, inclusive. Surely the Minister does not suggest for a moment that that is a fair wage, that it is anything approaching a living wage or that it is anything approaching the figure that is paid by employers who engage men at sawing in any part of the country? Nobody in the country or in any small town who has a sawmill would think of offering a wage as low as 30/- a week to a labouring man to attend sawyers. In the first place, the wear and tear of clothes and boots involved in the work would demand that a wage higher than that paid to an ordinary labourer should be paid to these men. I think it is disgraceful —in fact absolutely criminal—for any Government Department to pay a wage as low as 30/- a week to a labourer engaged in sawing. Government Departments should set a headline for other employers in the country, but, instead of that, the wages that this Department pay are considerably lower than those paid by owners of small saw-mills in the country. As I said before, the mentality of members of the Government seems to move in the direction of low wages for the working class. In practically every Department of State it will be seen that the wages paid to a working man are less than those paid by any ordinary businessman to his employees. The Government ought to see to it that they put their house in order in this connection. It is not at all to be wondered at that we have men going by the hundred across Channel into dangerous positions, into the middle of a war situation, in order to earn sufficient to keep their wives and children from hunger and starvation. It is a policy such as this that is responsible for so many people migrating from this country and the sooner the Government realise that the better. The wages of men engaged in forestry should at least be brought up to the level of the agricultural labourer and men engaged in saw-mills should have considerably more than 30/- a week.

Mr. Bartley

I did not intend to refer to the question of tree planting in Connemara were it not that Deputy Brodrick made reference to it. In reply to his question I can only say that west of Oughterard nothing has been done. In fact nothing has been attempted. I have long ago given up hope that anything would be done in the way of large-scale afforestation. When the foreign expert was in the forestry division, I had interviews with him on a number of occasions.

General MacEoin

Why did you not resign then?

Mr. Bartley

I am afraid that the issue is not taken sufficiently seriously for that in my constituency. In addition to that fact, the land in my constituency which I was told would be suitable for planting such as the Maam Valley, cannot be got. There was another district in the Recess area which the foreign expert told me possibly would be suitable. I have been puzzled for a number of years why the forestry division has not done something in that particular area. I am very disappointed that it has not been attempted. I pointed out to the foreign expert that in a place near Oughterard trees had been grown and had been cut down during the last war. His reply was: "Yes; trees were grown, but trees and timber are not the same thing." I asked him to explain that, and he said: "Well, if you want to get an idea of what we mean by timber, you might think of a tree of the thickness of a man's body." That statement was made to me ex cathedra and my enthusiasm about forestry on a large scale in my area oozed considerably. If we cannot grow timber, we can at least grow trees. I do not see why the suggestions made by some Deputies here, namely, Deputies Brodrick and Brennan—and I referred to the same matter here myself on one or two previous occasions—could not be carried out, that is, that officials, such as officials of the Department of Agriculture who are constantly on their rounds, should co-operate with the forestry division in picking out smaller patches of land which would be suitable for planting amenity belts. I think a good deal could be done in that way. A considerable amount of timber could be produced in these belts if the scheme were taken up in a systematic way.

I want to draw the attention of the Minister to representations that were addressed to me recently by the Cong Parish Council with reference to the state of affairs at Ashford. The complaint is made that a number of workmen have been dismissed recently there. I also had representations from another source that the number of people employed in the saw-mills at Cong is not by any means sufficient to meet the demand for timber. I think these representations should get the very serious attention of the Minister and his Department. I believe that the demand for timber is much greater than can be met by the number of men working in the woods. Certainly the number working in the saw-mills is not nearly sufficient to deal with it. I would ask the Minister to give serious attention to complaints of that kind.

Mr. Hughes

I must say that I know very little about afforestation and I am rather bewildered by the views expressed here on this question. Some Deputies have spoken of the potential wealth of timber production in this country. I am aware that this is a highly controversial subject. Much has been written in favour of afforestation and possibly not so much against it. I still have an open mind on the question. I am open to be convinced that we should go in for that large-scale afforestation on lands suitable for the purpose.

We should try to get some sort of agreement in this House as to the type of land we are prepared to devote to forestry. I do not think any Deputy will contend that land suitable for agricultural purposes should be devoted to forestry, in other words, that where men can live and produce food trees should be planted. If there was agreement on that it would certainly narrow down the amount of land available for afforestation. That is on the fertility side. On the other side, you have a certain type of land that is unsuitable for the production of commercial timber, because of the absence of fertility. Deputies know that in order to grow commercial timber there must be some degree of fertility in the soil. Small trees might be grown, but commercial timber could not be grown, so that it would be an unprofitable undertaking for the State to plant land of that type.

I should be glad to hear from the Minister if at any time a survey has been made of the possibility of acquiring that narrow margin of land suitable for forestry. Was any proper survey ever made as to the possibility of a large-scale development of afforestation on suitable land and at the same time suitable for production of commercial timber? If that survey has not been made it would be well if some attempt were made to provide it in the near future. Certain people in this country think of afforestation as having immense possibilities as a source of wealth. I am inclined to question that view. However, living in a Leinster county, where there is very little afforestation, with the exception of Wicklow, possibly I am not as conversant with the subject as other Deputies. After reaching agreement in deciding that we should not plant land suitable for food production, or put trees where men can live, and eliminating land that has not sufficient fertility, is it possible to get an idea as to the acreage available for forestry?

In judging what our policy should be in regard to afforestation, I do not think present conditions should influence the permanent policy. I agree with the Deputy who said that this emergency provides the opportunity to make use of any mature timber we have. Obviously it is of more value now than it is likely to be for many years, and this is the time to get rid of it. We are forced in present circumstances to make use of any timber that is available. There is something to be said for the case made by Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney. Is the Department making any provision for the replanting of land that has been stripped of timber? Have we sufficient young trees to do so? I am afraid that aspect of the case has been neglected. Perhaps the Minister could give us some information about it. Nurseries may not be in a position to supply requirements for planting purposes. I am inclined to agree that the Department has been rather lax about insisting on the provision that where a felling licence is granted replanting must be done within a period of 12 months. In practice, little or no replanting was done within the statutory period.

Another aspect is that sufficient encouragement is not given to people generally to plant small woods in order to beautify the country and to provide shelter belts. Possibly the problems of forestry generally are sufficient to engage the attention of the small staff available, but that is a branch of work which should not be overlooked. Every encouragement should be given to acquire small areas, not from the point of view of producing commercial timber but of improving the general appearance of the country and providing shelter belts in exposed districts. I wish the Minister could give information on these matters, and as to the amount of land available for afforestation.

Mr. Cogan

When we consider the amount of timber which is being felled at present, and the extent to which the country is being denuded of timber, as well as the number of people unemployed, it is a matter of very deep regret that it has not been possible to extend afforestation. The Minister stated that the two causes contributing to the rejection of such a policy were lack of seeds and the impossibility of procuring sufficient fencing materials. Having regard to all the circumstances I consider that some steps should have been taken to overcome these difficulties. If they cannot be overcome, at least a considerable amount of work should be done in regard to executing drainage and developing land suitable for planting. Deputy Hughes referred to a type of land that ought to be used for afforestation. Wicklow is one of the most extensively planted counties in Ireland and, as far as I am aware, a considerable amount of land in Wicklow that was suitable for agricultural purposes has been put under afforestation.

I can understand the difficulties of the Department in that respect. For example, they may acquire a fairly large estate, or a number of holdings, for the purpose of planting, and it is their invariable policy to acquire as much land as possible in one locality for the purpose of facilitating supervision, protection, and fencing, and for other considerations. Now, it very frequently happens that in a district they acquire a considerable amount of land which is not suitable for agricultural purposes, but which is suitable for planting, and in planting those areas they frequently isolate small portions of arable land, like small islands surrounded by forests, and in order to prevent trespass on the forests they find it necessary to plant those small areas, but I think that, while there have been exceptions in this respect, the general policy of the Department is not to plant land which is suitable for agricultural purposes. I should like to point out, however, that a considerable amount of land, suitable for agricultural purposes, has been planted here and there throughout the Country Wicklow.

In regard to extending afforestation, as far as I can see, the big difficulty is to find a sufficiently large area in one district suitable for planting, and it invariably happens that it is very difficult to acquire an area of large dimensions, and in that way afforestation is being held up. I know of one district in my own parish where negotiations have been going on for some years—in fact, a considerable number of years—in regard to the acquisition of land for planting. The position is that they have found it possible to acquire a considerable amount, but not sufficient to justify a scheme, and they have found considerable difficulty in trying to acquire the additional amount which would justify a scheme, but have not been successful so far. Now, I believe that that situation exists to a greater or lesser extent in almost every parish in the Twenty-Six Counties and in almost every townland. There are small areas which are ideally suitable for planting, but under the present system it is not possible for the Department to undertake the work. I should like to ask: Is it possible to devise any new scheme by which these smaller areas may be put under timber? I think that such a scheme should be possible. I cannot see that the difficulties are insurmountable. I think it should be possible to acquire small areas of four, five or six acres, and I do not think there is any way of getting the enormous increase in afforestation that we need unless these small areas are planted, and they must be planted by the Forestry Department because there is no use in expecting or hoping that private enterprise will supply the needs of the situation.

Now, with regard to the present emergency situation, which makes it inevitable that timber should be felled for firewood, I think it is absolutely essential that the rule in regard to replanting should be strictly enforced, and the less time that is allowed to elapse between the felling of the timber and the replanting, the better for everybody concerned. If, for example, a land owner succeeds in disposing of a considerable amount of timber, thereby making a certain amount of money, the best time to expect him, or to compel him I might say, to undertake the expense of replanting is immediately after he has acquired that additional money. That is just one consideration. Of course, if timber for replanting is not available, it would create a difficulty, and I do not know how far the Department are prepared to meet the situation, but I think they should be prepared to sanction the growing or planting of any kind of hardwood timber which, if not of great commercial value, would at least have a value in providing shelter in place of the timber that had been felled, and would be useful for firewood at a later stage.

As I have said, Wicklow is one of the most extensively planted counties in this country, and I think it is the county in which we have the greatest number of men employed in afforestation. As a farmer, I do not think the policy of paying the men employed on afforestation less than what is paid to agricultural labourers can be justified. The farmer or the smallholder is compelled to pay his labourers a fixed minimum wage of at least 33/- and there is no reason why a big institution like the Forestry Department should not be compelled to pay at least the same wage as is paid to agricultural labourers. Now, we farmers and, I think, the agricultural labourers also, are inclined to assert that farming is the most laborious of all occupations, but I do not think we will dispute the fact that men engaged in the planting of timber on bleak hillsides, throughout the severity of the winter or the heat of the summer, when they get to work on those schemes, are less laboriously employed than agricultural labourers, and I do not think that the policy of paying a lesser wage to the forestry workers than to the agricultural labourers can be justified. As Deputy Everett pointed out, those men, as far as a large part of County Wicklow is concerned, are not in competition with agricultural labour because, in a very large part of the mountain districts, there is very little agricultural labour required. For that reason it would be only simple justice on the part of the Minister's Department to see that those men are paid at least as good a wage as the agricultural labourer.

I should like to ask the Minister to undertake, or to see that there is undertaken, an intensive survey of land suitable for planting. I know that in West Wicklow there are large areas which have not been planted and which are eminently suitable for planting. It may be, as I have said, that it would be difficult to find in one particular locality a very big acreage of land suitable, but over the entire county, or an entire section of the county, it should be possible to find some thousands of acres, and I think that some portion of the Minister's Department should be devoted to overcoming the technical or administrative difficulties which stand in the way of having this work undertaken, because we will never get a very large increase in the acreage under timber until those small areas are planted. Whatever difficulties may exist, I believe that they are capable of being overcome, and I should like the Minister to try to get his Department out of the rut of insisting upon having all their forests confined to one particular district. They should be able to distribute the areas far and wide throughout the entire country.

Mr. McMenamin

Deputy Hughes is perplexed in regard to this Estimate as to how much land is available and what kind of land should be planted. I think that what is wrong with a number of Deputies is that in their wild days they looked upon this country as another Canada or America where there was so much land that you could do all sorts of things. I have observed during my membership of the House that the Deputies who are most eloquent in pleading for the acquisition of land to put congests on are those who are most anxious to see an afforestation policy put into effect. We have, however, got to bear this fact in mind that this is a very small country, and that land hunger is a more acute problem with us than it is in any other country in the world. The net issue for us, therefore, is: are we going to have trees or men? I am all for an afforestation policy. There is no county in Ireland more in need of such a policy, if it could be carried out on an economic basis, than my native county. There is no use in thinking that trees will grow anywhere. They will not. As Deputy Hughes has pointed out, the land that you propose to grow timber on must have some fertility in it. It may be possible to grow scrub or cover on any kind of land that will give woodcock shelter from the frost and snow, but it is timber we want and not scrub. There would be no use in any Government adopting a policy to do that. The amount of land available for producing timber for commercial purposes is very limited.

I was rather surprised to hear that the Department had not given an increase of a few shillings a week in their wages to the men employed in the forests so as to bring their wages up to the agricultural wage level. In pre-war days the defence made for not giving them an increase was that they had to be kept at the rate of wages paid to agricultural workers. The wages of the latter have been increased, and therefore I think the Minister should give the forest workers the same wage. They are both drawn from the same class of people and are working in the same areas, so that it would be a wise policy to have the wages of both on the same level. The work to be done in the woods is heavy and laborious. With all respect to Deputy Cogan, I do not think it is correct to say that the work of a farm labourer is as heavy as that of the man employed in a forest. Cutting down and removing old timber is a desperate job. It is frightfully heavy work, and in my opinion there is no comparison at all between it and the work of a farm labourer. I have as good knowledge of farm work as Deputy Cogan has. No wire can now be procured to fence in new ground for afforestation, and that being so, I suppose no useful purpose would be served by holding an inquest as to why it is so. Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney is concerned about having timber to make carts and gates. I agree that is a desperately practical proposition. I think, however, that farmers should have provided themselves with sufficient gates for their farms in peace times so as to keep their horses, sheep and cattle from straying.

What I am really concerned about is the position in the paper industry. I do not know any of the people concerned in it, but certain allegations have been made by them. In fact, serious allegations were made by them during the past year to the effect that they put up proposals to the Minister, or to the Department, in regard to the conversion of timber into wood pulp. At the time they made their proposals the machinery to enable that to be done was available. I take it, however, that when the Minister, or the Department, consented to give the timber to the paper-mills the machinery was not available or, at least, considerable difficulty would be experienced in procuring it. With all respect to Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney, I think the Department should consider planting an extended area of soft timber that could be made available for the paper-mills which give employment to a good many workers.

It would be very unfortunate if, due to the lack of timber, the industry could not be kept going. In fact, whatever suitable timber we have available for conversion into wood-pulp should at once be set aside for that purpose so as to keep the paper-mills going. In a time of emergency the timber normally required for house building and such work could be set aside for the purpose I suggest. There will be plenty of opportunities for house building in peace times. I do not know what amount of capital is in-invested in the paper-mills, but I imagine it is a considerable amount. I am not a shareholder in the company and have no personal interest in it. I am, however, very much concerned regarding the workers who are employed in the industry. They are skilled people whose training takes a long time and it would be a great pity if, due to the absence of supplies of timber, the industry was not able to carry on. Everyone would become disgusted, and it might prove very difficult to start a venture of that kind again in the country. I should like the Minister to deal with the allegations which have been made. I do not know whether they are well founded or otherwise. This is the place to deal with them and I think they should be dealt with here and now. It is the only opportunity the House has of considering these allegations and they are very serious allegations—that an opportunity was given to the Department to help a young industry and the Department put some petty obstacles in the way and did not rise to the occasion and do its job. I should like the Minister also to tell the House if he will take up as a matter of Departmental policy the production of soft wood for wood-pulp in order to meet the requirements as far as possible of the paper industry in this country.

General MacEoin

There are a number of questions arising on this Vote which I should like to bring to the attention of the Minister and his Department. As to wages, I think the Minister should pay the highest possible wages to the workers. As the matter has already been dealt with, all I say to the Minister is that men working on timber should be paid the highest possible wage for workers in this country. Then there is the question of land, and what land is suitable for planting. A survey should be made to get an exact estimate of the land which is suitable for planting, and a plan made as to the amount of land that could be economically developed in plantations. Then there are a large number of acres already under plantations and several people have applied to the Department for permission to cut down these trees. In my opinion, the Minister should take care before he grants a permit to these people to cut these trees that in return they will plant at least so many acres, not so many trees. I would make a distinction between acreage and trees. I know that if I get a permit to cut down X number of trees I must put down X number of new plants. What I would like to see is that you must plant so many acres and that the plantation must be fenced in a certain way; that a person will not get a permit to cut trees until he undertakes to plant so many acres and to fence them properly, and that he will maintain them for a number of years so that we will have timber for wood pulp. On the other hand, I would say to the farmer who has a 25-acre, a ten-acre or a five-acre farm: "We will give you a subsidy from that other man's plantation." What I mean is this. If I get a permit to cut 700 trees, once I get that permit I can apply to the Department for a grant to replant a similar number of trees. When I cut down these trees, I will make money; I would not cut them if I did not. What I want is that, instead of that money being given to me, that it should be given to the man who is prepared to plant 25 acres or five acres or one acre. I want to divert the money and to get more new trees planted. I want the Minister to see to it that he will not let me cut the trees unless I replant without any cost to the State. I want the Department, before they issue a permit to John Brown to cut so many trees, to make it a condition that he must plant so many acres; that if he cuts down 700 trees he must plant 2,000 new trees. In that way we will maintain our forests. If you do not do that, you will not have afforestation, and it is a very important matter. When the Minister issues a permit to a man to cut trees, he should put upon him an obligation to replant and also to subscribe so much to the Forestry Branch to allow another person to plant, say, one acre. Deputy Cogan asked what the Minister was going to do about it. What we should do is to tell the Minister what we think should be done.

In my opinion, a commission should have been set up to inquire into the whole question of afforestation and told to adopt a bold policy for the afforestation of all the land that is suitable. There are thousands of acres in Donegal, Cork, Longford, Wexford, Wicklow, Kildare and Carlow suitable for afforestation. If the Government would give the Forestry Department power to go out and plant and replant and, before forests were cut down, to make it a condition precedent that so many acres would have to be replanted, the Forestry Branch, in my opinion, would make this country absolutely capable of supplying all its needs in the way of timber. We would be able to supply wood-pulp to the paper factories and to provide timber for sheds which are required at present. It has been said that we cannot get timber for carts. In the midlands there is timber suitable for carts— larch, oak and ash, all that is required.

There is, however, no co-ordination of effort. The Minister for Lands will give a permit for John Browne to sell the timber and cut it up, whether it is larch, oak or ash, for firewood, although it is required for carts. There should be some co-ordinated effort so that we will have a Forestry Department that will know its job from Alpha to Omega, from top to bottom. We will then have something that we can depend upon. If I want materials to make a cart I will know then where to apply for it. I can go to the Forestry Department and the Department will know—at least if it does not, it should—that in the next county there are so many thousand trees of larch, ask or oak suitable for farmers' carts or for shafts for the shifters to shift in the hay and oats and do all the other work the Government are asking us to do. If I want some timber and I do not know where to get it, it should be possible for me to get the information from the Department. If I write to the Department asking where I can get five or 100 cublic feet of larch or other timber, the officials there should be able to give me the information. They should be able to tell me that it is in this that or the other wood or on State lands. If the State lands have not got it, they should be able to say where it is procurable. In that way you will organise the whole business, so that when the farmer is called upon to produce food he will know where to get timber for cart shafts or the shafts in the shifter and he will then be in a position to bring in his wheat, oats or hay.

Mr. Daly

Like other Deputies who have already contributed to the debate, I want to protest on behalf of the forestry workers in my locality, because they are paid at a lower rate than the agricultural workers. It is very unjust to ask forestry workers to accept a lower rate of wages than the rate paid to agricultural workers. I live quite close to a big forest area and I know that the work there is very hard. At certain periods of the year the men are engaged on drainage work, cleaning and clearing, and they have to travel long distances to their work. At Ballyhooley the Forestry Department are doing great work. They provide timber for the City of Cork and over an area within a radius of ten to 15 miles. They provide good timber at a very reasonable rate. I believe they should not ask the workers to accept such low wages. The work is hard and the workers carry out their duties under very difficult conditions. They were working there when the weather was bad and I am aware that the conditions were anything but pleasant and, in the circumstances, it is only fair that they should be paid at the same rate as agricultural workers.

With regard to the granting of licences for the cutting of timber, I made an application some time ago to the Board of Works on behalf of the Kilworth Parish Council to make some timber available for the poor people of the district of Moorepark. After some time we got a reply. Then the Board of Works had to get a licence from the Forestry Department to cut the timber. We had to wait a long time for that. Eventually the Department sent an inspector to mark the timber. He came to Moorepark and marked 85 trees. If he got strict instructions to mark the most askward trees in the park he could not do his work better. The 85 trees were marked along by the demesne wall in the hardest and most impossible places in which to cut timber. Of the 85 trees, 60 were the worst in the park. The result was that the Kilworth Parish Council could not dispose of them. When a further application comes to the Minister from the Board of Works for a licence to make timber available at Moorepark for the poor of the district, I suggest that he will send down an inspector who will make a better effort at marking trees. I might mention that this is a non-turf area and, of course, the people cannot get coal. There is plenty of timber there, in belts that can be replanted easily. I appeal to the Minister to be more considerate when he is sending down the next inspector.

With regard to the granting of licences to farmers for the cutting of trees, I have heard complaints that a long time elapses between the application for a licence and the receipt of same. I must say that any time I had to go to the Forestry Department in connection with licences the officials got to work immediately and the licences were received a few days afterwards. I have very little criticism to offer in connection with this Department. Those who are engaged in the Department are doing great work, particularly as regards the forest at Kilworth. I remember when that place was a plain, when all the timber was cut out of it. Some 20 years ago the Forestry Department started to work there and to-day it is a pleasure, when passing along the old Dublin road from Kilworth, to see thousands of acres of splendid trees. They are a credit to the Forestry Department and a credit to the workers.

I suggest to the Minister that in view of the hard nature of the work and the long distances the workers have to travel, it is very unjust to have them working for a lesser wage than that received by the agricultural worker who is employed just the far side of the ditch. As I have indicated, many of the forestry workers have to travel a long distance to work and I know of several instances where they cannot get tyres for their bicycles and they have to walk. They are certainly deserving of an increase in their wages.

Mr. Derrig

Deputy McMenamin seemed to be inclined to blame the Forestry Branch in connection with the difficulties that have arisen in the paper industry. No matter what prevision was shown in connection with this matter, the fact is that we have not the reserves of timber, and will not have them for a considerable time, no matter how extensive our planting programme may be, to provide mature timber for the manufacture of paper. What happened in the matter to which the Deputy has referred is that the Forestry Branch made an offer to the paper company of a considerable quantity of soft wood for pulping purposes. The utilisation of this quantity of soft wood is dependent on the provision of paper machinery. The paper company were unable to secure the machinery and the scheme fell through. As far as the Forestry Branch is concerned, they have the timber still on hands and are ready to make it available if it should be possible to revive this scheme. Experts in forestry believe that it ought to be possible to convert the type of timber which we can make available, as was stated in the public statement made on the matter. It ought to be possible in a time of crisis to adapt ourselves and to adapt whatever machinery is available, or find some alternative means of pulping this kind of timber. The matter is being investigated further by the Forestry Branch and it is hoped that it may be possible to make certain suggestions for a scheme of partial conversion, at any rate, to the paper company. I do not think it would be fair to blame the Forestry Branch for the fact that we have not mature timber available.

Mr. McMenamin

I hope the Minister appreciates that I did not blame the Forestry Branch. I referred to allegations that I saw were made. The gist of those was that at the time when machinery was available for converting this stuff, the Minister would not give them the timber—or something to that effect. I am sure the Minister has this material before him. That is the gist of it. This is the only opportunity we get of bringing these matters up and disposing of these allegations, whether they are true or otherwise. I know nothing about the matter except what I read.

Mr. Derrig

We have not the mature timber on the scale that would enable us to start a paper industry. Of course, many things are necessary or would seem to be necessary and desirable in a period of crisis which would not be at all desirable in peace times. We cannot get over the difficulty that we have not mature forests. As regards the provision of machinery, it is not a matter for us. Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney raised the question of whether there are enough plants available for the replanting of the large number of woods that are now being cut down. This seems to be a matter largely for the nursery trade who are commercial suppliers of young trees. In their own interests they would probably see to it that the best supplies possible are made available. The Department will also be ready to extend their nursery accommodation and provision of young trees as far as possible.

Mr. McMenamin

On that matter, would it not be a good thing for the Department to acquaint the nurseries of the number of licences they were granting for the cutting down of timber so that they could plan their seedling planting accordingly?

Mr. Derrig

Yes. That is a useful suggestion which I will have considered. Wherever application is made for additional time to enable an owner to carry out replanting, we cannot deny him a good deal of latitude in the present circumstances. The Forestry Branch is trying to provide for their own requirements as far as possible in the nurseries. With regard to the general question of replanting, no prosecution has taken place so far, because the Act has not been in operation for a very long time. It is only the stress of the emergency conditions and the large amount of felling that is taking place and, presumably, will continue to take place while the war lasts, that will bring more clearly to the notice of the Oireachtas the necessity for tightening up the legislation.

We have been examining the question and we hope to introduce amending legislation. The Forestry Act of 1928 was largely experimental, as most initial measures dealing with new services are. There has been a certain amount of experience of its working and it is felt that amendments would be necessary even in normal conditions but that the emergency will probably create further difficulties which may render it necessary to amend the law still further. As I have indicated to the House, the Branch is very busy at present with felling operations and dealing with licences, as well as with its own planting programme, but I hope it may be possible to introduce this legislation within a reasonable time.

It is to the interest of owners of land to see that lands are not left idle but, as I have pointed out in my opening remarks, many of the larger landowners are not prepared, in the difficult conditions of the future, to face the task of replanting and very often lands are being offered to the Forestry Branch where it is felt that permission ought to be granted in existing circumstances to fell substantial amounts of timber. It has to be remembered in that connection that we are completely dependent now on our own resources. For housing and every other activity, the building of huts for defence or for turf cutting and everything else for which it is required, the timber must come from our own resources. Therefore we cannot reduce felling, though we would like to, and the general policy of the Forestry Branch is to restrict felling as much as possible. In every case, of course, where felling is permitted the replanting condition is inserted and is made obligatory on the owner, but we have not enough experience yet of replanting and we could not during the war period ask people to replant. They have not the means, in the first place. Even the Forestry Branch itself finds it extremely difficult to carry on its work, but the whole matter is receiving attention from the point of view of strengthening the legislation, if it is necessary.

Reference was made to the question of the provision of drying plants. I believe there is a certain number of these in the country and that they are working satisfactorily. The matter really concerns the Department of Industry and Commerce more than the Forestry Branch. As regards saws and saw-milling machinery, it is extremely difficult to procure these at present.

Deputy Kennedy suggested that the forestry staff should be recruited from people who have actual experience of forestry work in the field, who are trained in afforestation work. That is the course that has been followed. Trainees get every opportunity, as he indicated, of perfecting their knowledge of all branches of afforestation work. They start off during their cadet course as labourers, and work their way upwards. There is a regular system of promotion in the service so that all the staff are people—and this will be more and more the case in future—who received their first knowledge of forestry from the branch and who have grown up with it, so to speak. In future, as the service gets older, we shall have the position that we shall have men who have grown up with it, who have spent the years of their apprenticeship and the years of their manhood in the branch, and they will have a thorough knowledge of conditions throughout the country.

Reference has been made to the wages question by many Deputies. I explained to the House, in reply to Deputy Norton, that the question of the rate of wages of forestry labourers is a matter that is bound up with the wages of Government employees generally. A decision taken in a matter of that kind has reactions on all other Government employees. Furthermore, regard must be had to the position in agriculture at the present time. There are serious complaints of a shortage of labour which may become more acute as time goes on. I think it will be admitted by unprejudiced persons, and by those who really have regard to the general interests of the community, that it would be a mistake to attract labour away from the farming industry at the present time. The policy should be to attract it towards the agricultural industry as far as possible. Therefore the rate of wages for forestry workers, as well as being affected by the general consideration of what the rate has to be for Government labourers in other Departments, must necessarily be affected by the position in the agricultural industry. Deputy McMenamin says that the work is heavier than agricultural work. It may be heavier, but at the present time farmers have a good deal of difficulty to contend with in carrying on their work. The nation depends on that work very greatly, and it would be regarded as a serious and unnecessary imposition if we were to fix rates of wages that would draw labour away completely from the agricultural industry.

I am reminded, of course, that people who migrate to England get higher wages. That may be, but by the time they have paid to the various funds to which they are compelled to contribute and having regard to the standard of subsistence there, the difficulty of procuring necessary supplies, everything being rationed and in short supply, it is very doubtful whether the apparent rate of wages, high and all as it looks, bears any relation to what the real wages would be. I think Deputies should bear that in mind and should not be making these comparisons between the wages that can be obtained across the water and what we can pay here.

Deputy Everett was afraid we were growing no ash trees. I am informed that in the year 1940-41 over 200,000 ash trees were planted out of the nursery. Where the land is suitable and where it is possible, everything is being done to cultivate ash. Deputy Brennan seemed to suggest that because we are in a difficult period and have not been able to carry on replanting to the extent we would like, nothing at all has been done by the State in the way of afforestation.

Mr. Brennan

I did not say that at all.

Mr. Derrig

The Deputy seemed to suggest that.

Mr. Brennan

No, Sir.

Mr. Derrig

I should not like to wrong the Deputy but I would point out that the State has acquired 155,000 acres of land altogether for afforestation and that about 120,000 acres of that is productive. Ninety thousand acres have actually been planted—most of this in the past ten years. That is a pretty good record. If we can make plans for doing bigger and better things after the emergency, well and good. Unfortunately, the emergency has created difficulties for us which are very hard to surmount. I was not here when the Deputy was speaking, but it seems that he is dissatisfied that more extensive afforestation is not being undertaken.

Mr. Brennan

Much more.

Mr. Derrig

I have explained that it is very difficult to carry out afforestation work without fencing material and it is difficult to secure land. There is no use in telling us that land in patches of 100, 50 or even ten or five acres should be planted. If small patches even of five or ten acres are available near an existing forestry centre, they should of course be acquired but if not near a forestry centre, we have to get a nucleus of some 300 acres, as Deputies ought to know, to make a centre reasonably economic. We want to know before starting a new centre that it will be possible to extend operations in the area. Money is being actually paid at present to owners of small areas for planting themselves. It would be quite impossible for us to do the type of planting on four or five or six acres which individual owners are asked to carry out and for which they receive grants from the State.

We have as matters stand a large number of centres—well over 100 centres, which may increase. These centres are scattered pretty evenly over the country. You have an area like Wicklow which is fairly well planted. There is a certain number of centres there fairly close together. Outside Wicklow operations are extended very widely over the country. It is very hard to plan a programme for each centre, having regard to the difficulties of the time. There is not alone the question of fencing material but the question of plants, etc. A staff has to be maintained at each centre. If you have an area like County Wicklow you are able to concentrate on it and a considerable amount of new land is coming in. Then work can be much more economic than it is in some of these outlying centres. Even the transport of timber when felled, and when it is being brought to the dumps for fuel purposes in the urban centres, presents difficulties at present.

Deputy MacEoin spoke about the question of timber control. The Forestry Branch are not in charge of that work. They act as agents for the Department of Supplies, and remarks about timber control would really be more appropriate on the Estimate for that Department. The Forestry Branch is working in co-ordination with the Department of Supplies and that Department depends to a great extent on the specialised knowledge and experience of the forestry officers. It is possible that in the future the Forestry Branch will be asked to do more in the way of timber control. It may be that more drastic control provisions will have to be brought in, and if so, that will throw an additional burden on the Forestry Branch. The matter is under consideration from time to time and consultations take place between the two Departments. Deputy Bartley referred to employment on the Cong estate. Additional employment was given at that centre because felling took place on a fairly large scale, but that was purely temporary work, and when the felling programme was completed these hands were unfortunately disemployed.

Deputy Hughes referred to the question of having a survey made of land available for afforestation. There are a good many old reports, dating from the period of the British Government, regarding afforestation, and the amount of land available, but many of the estimates seem to be guesswork. At present it is thought that 600,000 acres would be available. We know that the land is there but that there would be trouble in acquiring 450,000 further acres. Before it would reach anything like 400,000 or 500,000 acres a good deal of the land regarded by the man in the street as being specially suited for afforestation would have been taken in. To carry out a full programme of afforestation would demand a large acreage of very good arable land. It is estimated that these 600,000 acres would provide for our entire home requirements of timber practically for all purposes. Deputy Hughes has received some reports and is of opinion that land suitable for food production should not be taken for afforestation. I do not think there is any great amount of such land taken. There is a limit to what could be done in mountainy areas, except in special places like the Waterford and Slievebloom mountains. The western mountain areas are not suitable, being too much exposed to make afforestation a commercial proposition. A good many of the large estates have come into the hands of the Forestry Branch in recent years and will still come in with, perhaps, a few exceptions. The question will then arise: where will we get the land for a comprehensive planting programme? I agree with the Deputy that if we could have surveys of particular areas like West Wicklow they would be very valuable.

As I pointed out on the Land Commission Estimate, it is very difficult to carry out surveys and work of that nature, because while we have not lost staff as the Land Commission has, still a great amount of additional work has been thrown on the Forestry Branch. Because of the increased tree felling and timber control I doubt if it would be possible to carry out a survey now, but I can assure Deputy Cogan that the Forestry Branch is keenly interested in Wicklow, and realise that land coming in there is more economic to work and more convenient from their point of view. Wicklow is the main centre of operations and small pieces of land are constantly coming in. If we are to continue a comprehensive programme of planting after the war, I think steps will have to be taken to survey large areas in counties like Wicklow, where land is not of first-rate agricultural quality, with a view to taking it in. Certainly, on the present basis of dealing with individual owners, with rather small amounts of land, perhaps 50 or 100 acres, it is very difficult to carry out a big programme.

Mr. Brennan

I should like to expose what I think is a fallacy in the Minister's speech.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not do so now.

Mr. Brennan

I only want to draw attention to the fact that the Minister stated that the western seaboard was not suitable for the planting of trees.

Mr. Derrig

For commercial purpose. It may be all right for amusement or as a hobby.

Mr. Brennan

I should like to ask the Minister on what authority he bases his opinion.

Mr. Derrig

On the expert opinion of the directors of afforestation.

Mr. Brennan

The opinion of the Minister and his predecessor was based on this——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not reply to the Minister.

Mr. Brennan

No. I only want to put the Minister right.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy rose to ask a question.

Mr. Brennan

I asked the Minister what he based his opinion on.

An Ceann Comhairle

And the Deputy got a reply.

Mr. Brennan

The opinion was based on the fact that at one period the British Government planted trees down there, but the trees were exposed for a month before being planted. Do the Minister's advisers base their opinion on that?

Mr. Derrig

No.

Mr. Brennan

I believe they do, because trees planted there since then have flourished. The other opinion is a fallacy and it should be exposed.

General Mulcahy

The Minister gave the number of acres that would provide all the timber required here. Does he include in that estimate wood-pulp for paper making?

Mr. Derrig

Yes.

Mr. Allen

When the Forestry Branch is acquiring land do they consult the Land Commission as to whether the land proposed to be taken would affect the position of the agricultural community in the area?

Mr. Derrig

Yes, the Land Commission is consulted.

Mr. Allen

In all cases?

Mr. Derrig

Yes.

Vote put and agreed to.