I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. This Bill follows the lines of the Acts passed in 1937, 1940 and 1941, extending the period within which elections for membership of the local authorities must be held. The circumstances which made the passage of the 1937, 1940 and 1941 measures desirable were well stated by Deputy Mulcahy in his speech on last year's Bill and, of course, these reasons still remain.
Committee on Finance. - Local Elections (Amendment) Bill, 1942—Second Stage.
Stated by me or to me?
By you. On that occasion the Deputy reminded the House that at that time the present county councils had been in office for seven years. He then went on to say, as reported in column 2208 of Volume 84 of the Parliamentary Debates——
Of what date?
I have not the date. It is Volume 84, column 2208:—
"An election was due in 1937, but it was postponed because there was a general election. When the postponement that year was discussed, the then Minister for Local Government indicated that, while he took power to postpone the elections for three years, it was not his intention to hold up the elections for the full period. He agreed with Deputy Brennan who criticised the postponement that it was wise to hold these local elections at regular intervals and that the intervals should not be prolonged. It might have been the intention to hold elections in 1938, but, again in that year, there was a general election. When we came to 1939 and 1940, we were discussing the Managerial Bill, and I take it that the Minister felt there was not much use in holding local elections until he had got his Managerial Bill through the House and was in a position to make the changes in local bodies entailed by the passage of that Bill.
All the legislation bearing on the reconstruction of local councils and the introduction of the managerial system has now been passed, and we find ourselves in the middle of an emergency. The nature of that emergency has been referred to in various ways by different Ministers comparatively recently, and all kinds of administrative devices have been adopted to meet that emergency of one kind and another. Speaking in Waterford, and reported in the papers of 28th June—that is the 28th June, 1941—the Minister for Supplies said:—
‘The difficulties which face us are utterly appalling. The public has been informed of it, but their full extent will not be understood until they are actually upon us."
My submission to the House is that that is the situation to-day, just as it was then. And it is in the light of that situation that this Bill is being introduced.
Even though it may be desirable, and indeed highly desirable, to hold the local elections, in spite of any practical difficulties and many obvious objections, most of which were referred to in the debate on last year's Bill, the House, nevertheless, must face the fact that no matter how convinced we may be that the elections should be held if at all possible, it still may prove to be impossible to hold them. Against that contingency it is the duty of the Government to make provision. Hence this Bill.
In its main provisions the Bill follows the Act of last year.
Sections 1 and 2 of the measure are self-explanatory.
Section 3 of the Bill will extend to the 30th September, 1943, the limit of time fixed by the Local Elections Act, 1937, as amended by the Acts of 1940 and 1941 for the holding of elections.
Section 4 similarly extends the time in the case of Cork borough. It is necessary to make separate provision for Cork, as the elections in future will be triennial, in accordance with the provisions of the Cork City Management (Amendment) Act, 1941.
Section 5 makes the special provision with regard to the election of lord mayors, mayors and chairmen of local authorities. According to the provisions of the Local Elections Act, 1927, in a year in which no triennial election is held, the lord mayor, mayor or chairman is elected at a quarterly or annual meeting held between the 23rd June and the 1st July.
To remove any uncertainty that may arise on the question of annual or quarterly meetings, Section 5 provides that if an election is held this year, the part of the year ending on the appointed day is to be regarded as a year in which a triennial election is not held, and the remaining part of the year will be a year in which a triennial election is held. Accordingly, the chairmen and mayors appointed at the meeting held between the 23rd June and 1st July would go out of office on the coming into office of their successors, who would be appointed at the first or quarterly meeting of the local authority held immediately after the election.
In the circumstances in which we live, it is not possible to foresee every difficulty that may arise in consequence of the passing of this Bill. If a difficulty arises with regard to the meeting, procedure or constitution of a local authority, Section 6 gives power to the Minister for Local Government and Public Health to make such provision by Order as is necessary in the circumstances.
It is intended to bring the Public Assistance Act, 1939, into force this year even if the triennial elections are not held. The Public Assistance Act provides for members of a public assistance authority being elected at the annual meeting after a triennial election. If, therefore, the Act were brought into operation, say, on 1st October next and triennial elections are not held this year, there will be no authority to administer the Act as the law stands. Section 7 of the Bill makes provision for that situation and gives the Minister the power to prescribe the holding of the first election of the members of public assistance authorities. So much for the purpose of the Bill and its provisions.
I come now to the amendment which Deputy Mulcahy has put down asking the Dáil to decline to give the Bill a Second Reading. The amendment advances very weighty reasons for holding the local elections. I fully recognise their weight and significance so far as that question is concerned, but I submit that they are not cogent reasons for opposing the Bill. The introduction and passage of this Bill is in no way incompatible with the holding of the local elections. Even if, despite all the risks attending that course, a definite decision were taken to hold the elections, it would still be most desirable as a matter of common prudence to pass this Bill. We in this House and the country must remember that at any moment the peace and security which we now enjoy may prove to be short-lived, specious and deceptive. So long as there is war all around us, we in this island are not masters of our fate and all our plans must take account of that fact.
If, therefore, to-day it might seem practicable to hold the elections, overnight circumstances may so change that on to-morrow that course might, with equal conviction, be held to be impracticable and unwise. Even if we were still at peace, the position, say, in regard to such a matter as supplies, might have so changed in the interval that it would be improvident to hold the elections and it might be better to abandon our original intention. To enable us to deal with such a situation we must, among other things, have an ample margin of statutory time within which to act. In regard to that particular aspect of the problem, I may say that the special circumstances in Cork will call for a minor amendment of the Bill, which, if the House gives it a Second Reading, will be introduced in Committee.
Now, apart altogether from the hesitations and doubts which the international situation impose on us, we must face the fact that the practical supply difficulties in the way of holding the local elections are very great. In the normal course, considerable quantities of printing paper, pencils, ink, stationery, twine, sealing wax and other requisites are required by returning officers for the proper conduct of the election. Further, very large quantities of these articles are customarily used, or misused, by candidates and their supporters. Transport, not only for candidates and voters, but for returning officers and their staff and for the conveyance to and from the polling stations of ballot papers, tables, partitions and the like has absorbed great quantities of petrol in the past. All of these things are in very short supply now and are likely to be still scarcer in future. In addition, there is the contingent problem of lighting and heating the polling places. This might be overcome if the polling took place about the height of mid-summer. But if we fix a day then, it might interfere with agricultural work, with the danger that either the elections will be ignored, and the returns unrepresentative, with the consequence that the results, from the point of view of those who want clean and efficient administration, will be disappointing, or else the farm work may be neglected, with an inevitable reaction on our food supply. It is true, of course, that these disadvantages might be minimised to some extent if the elections were held on a day which was generally observed as a public holiday. But here again other considerations have to be taken into account. In any event, a certain amount of public ferment and agitation would almost inevitably be occasioned by the election and this also might affect work on the land.
With regard to the question of election requisites, I may say that I have been looking into the matter. Supplies and stocks available are undoubtedly small, much smaller than we have been accustomed to on such occasions. But, no doubt, they could be eked out, and strict economy could be enforced in their use. The size of ballot papers and other official stationery, official posters and so on, might be cut down, and the bare number of each necessary to comply with statutory requirements might be printed and issued. In most of the smaller counties and perhaps in some of the medium-sized, where roads are normally good and distances not too great, horsed vehicles could replace motors for official transport. Generally I think that, so far as materials are concerned, it would be possible to hold the elections, though with much more trouble and inconvenience for all concerned than has been usual.
But of course, though the supply difficulty is no small one, it is not by any means the main consideration that we must take into account. Much more important than it is the effect which the holding of the elections might have on public feeling. We must consider the spirit of comradeship which, despite the earlier years of bitter partisanship, has developed among our people since they became alive to the common peril. Citizens of all classes and all shades of opinion have enrolled themselves in the Defence Forces and in the volunteer auxiliary services associated therewith.
And thereby they cease to be regarded as citizens. They are not fit to be regarded as citizens.
I wish the Deputy would be less ebullient for the moment.
I think the Minister will drive me to leave the House, if he continues in this way.
I should be sorry if the Deputy did leave. Perhaps he would allow me to put before the House certain aspects of the matter which, notwithstanding the opinion of the Opposition are, from the people's point of view, not unimportant. I was saying, Sir, that citizens of all classes and all shades of opinion have enrolled themselves in the Defence Forces and the organisations associated therewith. Political friends and opponents alike stand side by side in the L.D.F., the L.S.F., the Maritime Inscription Service, the A.R.P. Service, the Red Cross and kindred organisations which have been formed to defend the country. If the local elections are held what will be the reaction on these men and women and the services to which they belong?
Tell us about it.
Perhaps Deputy Mulcahy is quite careless about that, but we, at any rate have to consider it. We are carrying the burden of government. We do not enjoy his irresponsibility and freedom of speech. I am saying that if these local elections are held one of the things which we must consider, irrespective of the Party point of view which we wish to serve, is what will be the reaction upon the men and women of these services. That is a question to which we are bound to give most serious attention. Some people tell me that the result will be bad, some even say disastrous. As against these, there are others who say that most people recognise the need for fresh blood in the local authorities and, therefore, for holding the elections. They say that the holding of them will no more divide the L.D.F. and the L.S.F. than a general election divides the Army, the Gárda Síochána or the Civil Service. That may be an optimistic view but it is a view which I have found to be widely held. But which view is the right view—that is the question? Who will answer it for me? Will Deputy Mulcahy? I would certainly attach very great weight to his opinion. He has long experience of such matters. He knows the country and has many points of contact with it. I would therefore rate very highly, however fallibly, the views of himself or his colleagues in regard to it, just as I would those of the Labour Deputies, but I doubt if I would find it an easy matter to reconcile all their views, even the views of those who support Deputy Mulcahy or who sit behind him, any more than I have found it easy to reconcile the views of my own friends.
Of course no one will for a moment deny that, if possible, the elections should be held. During the debate on the Estimates for my Department, grave assertions were made regarding the integrity of certain members of some local authorities. Perhaps a few of these allegations may be well-founded; perhaps they are not. But, true or false, they appear to get some credence in the districts concerned and, because of this, the reputation of the local authorities and individual members of them is seriously impaired. It does not matter very much whether the rumours relate only to a few members or many. The honest men will become objects of suspicion and distrust with the rest.
One of the questions which we have to put to ourselves in relation to this matter is whether it is likely that the usefulness of members of these local authorities, as leaders or guides of local opinion in an emergency, would be great or small or would, in fact, exist at all. Now, no one could for a moment question that this is a very serious aspect of the whole matter. The natural rallying points for the civilian population in time of stress should be the members of the local authorities who normally should command the respect and confidence of the people who have elected them. These men are familiar with the local services, with all that extensive machinery which has been set up to safeguard the health of the people and to succour and assist them in distress or want. It is to them, therefore, that the people should naturally turn. But if the people have no regard for the members of local authorities or do not trust them —and it is to be feared that this is the position in many cases to-day—they certainly will not look to them in time of national danger or any such emergency.
But apart even from the special reason that in the particular circumstances of to-day the local authorities should be constituted of men who are upright, earnest and intelligent, men in whom the people will have confidence, there is a more general reason for holding elections. Not merely our local administration but the State itself and the Parliament and Government which rule and administer it under the Constitution, are based on the principle of elective representation. Democratic representation is the vitalising element in our Constitution. Such representation can only be kept clean and healthy if there is regular resort to the judgment of the people. For this free and regular elections provide the only means. There is no other way to prevent the evils which the age-long experience of mankind has shown to be associated with irresponsible government, and when, in a democratic system, such elections are deferred long beyond their due time, even for what may appear at the time to be the strongest of reasons, the sense and feeling of irresponsibility grows among the elected, until they no longer take any account of public opinion.
As Deputy Mulcahy pointed out last year, elections for membership of local authorities in general have not been held since 1934. In some cases they have not been held since 1928. But the elective principle is just as vital an element in our system of local government as it is in our Constitution, and, therefore, we must ask ourselves: can we permit it to continue to be suspended for an indefinite period, and to fall into eventual desuetude in regard to local affairs even at the present time? If we do, we have the sure knowledge that the standard of local administration will continue to deteriorate, that public opinion will be more and more openly outraged by it, that it will be found necessary to dissolve an increasing number of public bodies, and that the longer the elections are deferred the more difficult it will be to hold them, until at length we may be forced to abandon the idea of electing local bodies at all during the emergency, and have to resort to authoritarian administration in our local affairs. But if we are to have authoritarianism in local affairs, why not in national affairs also? Why not an authoritarian Government, and why not an authoritarian State? That is the dilemma with which we may be confronted if the local elections are much longer postponed, and if we permit the principle of elective representation on the local authorities to become fossilised and to be set aside.
The fact that such a situation may arise constitutes, in my view, the strongest reason for averting it by holding the elections as soon as possible, if at all possible. But again, we come back to the question: Is it possible to hold them, and, even if it be possible to hold them, is it wise to hold them? Now those are questions to which any person carrying responsibility in this matter must find it very difficult to give a positive answer. On one side we have to place the many evils which undeniably flow from postponing the elections, and they are great and serious evils, but on the other side we have to place the danger that the local elections may create dissension and fission in the ranks of our people, and particularly of our voluntary services. Some will, no doubt, rate that risk higher than others. Even those most competent to form an opinion will differ regarding it. Deputy Mulcahy, again, to whose opinion in a matter of this sort I would attach great weight, is inclined to discount the risks. I, for my part, am not so sure, but I will concede that he may be right.
You are making his speech.
I am making my own speech. In any event, it is clear that the decision as between holding the elections and postponing them is a choice between two evils. Which of us will say with any conviction that one or other of those is the lesser evil? The answer will be easier if all who recognise what is at stake would join in an appeal to the people to consider the issues raised in the local elections calmly and seriously. Such an appeal might emphasise how important are the functions which the local authorities and their members may be called upon to fulfil in dealing with the social and economic problems which, even so long as we remain at peace, will confront us more and more acutely in ever increasing number and widening diversity so long as the war in Europe goes on. The appeal might emphasise also how even more important the functions of those authorities and the responsibilities of their members will become should our neutrality be violated by the invasion of our territory. If that happened, those local authorities would be again what they were about 20 years ago, the rallying points of public opinion, buttresses of the national authority, and administrative centres of vital importance to a people striving to maintain organised government based upon national freedom.
The appeal should emphasise that, in order to fulfil those tasks effectively, the local authorities must be manned by honest, upright, earnest, and intelligent citizens, and should call upon the people to elect only such individuals to the public bodies. I believe that the people would respond to such an appeal, and that they would return men and women upon whom the country could rely in an emergency. I believe also that, in answer to it, the local elections would be contested with that high seriousness which the gravity of our situation demands, and that they would be carried through calmly and without bitterness and factiousness; in fact that, if we had this formidable and influential appeal, we could afford to take risks, and that the results would be such as to leave the nation better equipped and better organised to face the future than it is to-day. All that, I repeat, does not lessen the essential need for the measure now before the House. What I said at the beginning still stands: whether we hold the elections at an early date or not, we still want the power which this Bill will confer on us to postpone the elections, should that course become inevitable.
I welcome with the greatest possible gratification the Minister's speech. I apologise for a certain amount of heat when listening to the first part of that speech, and, if I wanted to explain that heat, I would ask the Minister to go back over it, to read his speech and try to make up his mind how, in the frame of mind there indicated, a man could take a decision on anything. However, in order to save the Minister having to go back and read his speech, I shall not make any attempt to justify the heat to which I gave expression in some of my remarks. The Minister, as I very gratefully acknowledge, made his own speech in the latter part of his remarks. It is a speech which puts even more strongly and more clearly things I should like to say. Coming from the Government Benches, they are infinitely more important in the circumstances of to-day than anything I could say here.
I am speaking for myself when I say that I am perfectly confident that there is not one man on our benches who would not subscribe to the type of appeal the Minister makes, that this great opportunity should be taken to bring into local administration the spirit which should always characterise it, and to eradicate from local administration and from local thought in local councils anything approaching the type of Party politics which the events of the last 20 years have unfortunately brought into local administration. I am, as I say, speaking for myself when I say that, in order to give an opportunity and an invitation to the men who sit around and behind me to subscribe to that and to say that, if the Government decide, as I believe it should decide at an early date, that local elections should be held, we shall be prepared to join in an appeal to make local administration the kind of thing which in a Christian and decent country it ought to be.
There is nothing that would strengthen the fibre of our people, nothing that would strengthen more our defence and nothing that would give more heart to the voluntary organisations, which are working hard to build a technical defensive system in the country, than to know that it was possible for all Parties in this House to realise the spirit in which our local machinery should be worked, and the spirit in which it should be manned, and to know that an opportunity was given to the electorate to face that job, no matter what the difficulties of sealing wax, transport, paper and envelopes.
Give the country in its present mood —in its present bewilderment about things if you like—a chance of coming forward; give our men and women an opportunity of marching to the local government polls to select the type of people they want to man their local councils. You will, in my opinion, get a tremendous response. You will get a sense of reality of national strength brought into the situation. You will get councils of which you will be proud, and on which you can depend, and the presence of which throughout the country will have enormous reactions on the strength of your voluntary defence organisations.
When I put down this reasoned amendment to this motion for Second Reading, I put it down because I felt it was essential to set out plainly the spirit in which we wanted to discuss this motion.
Is the Deputy moving his amendment?
I thought the Minister moved it for me.
The Deputy may then be taken as having moved it even formally for record purposes.
I wish to be taken as moving it. The amendment is:—
To delete all words after the word "That", and substitute the following words:—
"being of the opinion that the fostering and strengthening in every one of our people of every instinct of theirs to accept civic responsibility and to give civic service, is one of the most important and urgent needs of Irish life, and is particularly so in the immediate circumstances of the present emergency and because of the circumstances likely to exist in the post-war period, the Dáil declines to give a Second Reading to the Local Elections (Amendment) Bill, 1942".
I wanted a particular standard raised on this discussion, and if my amendment has helped the Minister to approach the consideration of this matter in the spirit which prompted him to speak the words he has spoken, I feel very grateful to myself for putting down this reasoned amendment. There are things, however, which I do not understand. When the Minister summarises the difficulties that would arise in connection with local elections, I do not see why the local elections should be pushed back beyond 30th September this year. If the Government as a whole are prepared to approach the consideration of this matter in the spirit in which the Minister approached it for the greater part of his speech, why is it not possible to look at the situation as it stands, to fix a date and make an announcement?
I quite appreciate the advantages of holding these elections during the summer and before the busy part of the harvest begins, and I appreciate that, if you do not hold them then, you might not be able to hold them until October, but, in view of what the Minister has said, I do not want to elaborate any aspect of the matter. I simply want to ask the various sections of the House if they subscribe to what the Minister says, as to the desirability of having a joint appeal and holding the elections on the basis of that joint appeal at the earliest possible moment. If we can get the spirit of the House on that point on this stage, I take it the Minister will be able to answer on Committee Stage the questions which arise in my mind, and which I put now.
This day week.
Before the harvest is too far advanced—say, towards the end of August—could it not be arranged to hold these elections? If the Minister is able to give any reason for not holding them, I am sure we shall all understand it, but if they cannot be held then, I am sure it would be possible for the Government to look forward and say what would be the earliest point of time after that at which they could be held. If they cannot be held until October, I could appreciate the necessity for a postponing Bill, and such a matter could be considered, but with regard to holding our hands and not saying what we are going to do, because we have not got a postponing Bill, I do not think there is anything in it, because an Emergency Order which can be tapped out on a typewriter in four or five minutes and can get the official seal, will stop anything going on in the country. However, I do not want, as I say, to develop points that might otherwise have to be developed. I think that nothing can be gained by considering the type of difficulties that might arise in various circumstances here, and I think that anything that this House, by a kind of unanimous appeal or decision, decides to do, is going to have an extraordinarily good effect on the country generally, and if we can get here to-night an expression, from the various sides of the House, on the proposal to have local elections on a joint appeal, as to the spirit in which these elections should be carried out and the functions to be exercised by local bodies in an emergency such as this, then I think it would be very easy to settle with the Minister, within the coming week, any difficulties that might arise as a result of the points I raised.
If that matter is decided here then I should like to see some of the competent inspectors and officials of the Department of Local Government and Public Health, and, perhaps, some of the very experienced officials that local authorities have throughout the country, go on the Radio and deal in a popular way with this matter. I think that these officials could deal with the functions of local authorities in that way, and could show our people what is meant by representative government in local government matters.
A lot has been said to the disparagement of the managerial system, but I think it can be clearly shown that the managerial system is putting an efficient and a most important weapon in the hands of representative bodies. I admit that there are dangers. There are bodies that are not equal to their job, and the managerial system might develop into an extension of mere bureaucracy, but I think that a proper education of the people could easily create a situation in which that danger would not arise. Now, at the beginning of the introduction of the managerial system, is the time to deal with that, and if it can be introduced in the spirit in which the Minister has spoken, and which I suggested in my amendment these bodies ought to be elected, then you will have seized an extraordinary opportunity to give this country what, perhaps, it has not had for a very long time, and that is, a really sound, efficient and vigorous local government system, with a spirit of responsibility to the people around it, and a spirit of service in the representatives.
I thank the Minister for the solution that he has suggested to this problem, and I think that if we follow it on the lines suggested here by him, we will do an extraordinary amount of good work for the country in general and that, as a result of it, we will be able to strengthen the spirit of the country in a way greater than anyone may possibly think of at the moment.
I should like to make a few remarks in connection with the matter before the House. So far as I know or can remember, I cannot recall—certainly since I became a member of this House—having heard or read speeches such as those of the Minister and Deputy Mulcahy which showed a better spirit. I do not think a better spirit was ever shown in this House since we got self-government, and I think that everybody, no matter what their political views may be, will be grateful for the spirit that has been shown. I have been a member of a local body for a considerable time, and I only want to say this: that if these elections are held in the spirit which the Minister has expressed, and Deputy Mulcahy confirmed, I believe that a great deal of good will be done in the country from the point of view of voluntary service. Now, that is the trouble. Perhaps, if a strong appeal were to be made by the Leaders of the two big Parties in this House and of the Labour Party, these elections would be decided in the spirit in which the matter has been accepted here to-night from all sides of the House, and I believe that there would not be one dissentient voice when the election was over. I believe that it is true to say, however, that local bodies, as they are at the present time, are elected for a long time and, probably, grow a little weary, and do not take the same interest in matters of local government as they would if elections were held at reasonable periods. I feel bound to say, however, that, like everybody else in this House to-night, I feel proud of the spirit that was shown here to-night in connection with these local elections. The country will follow the lead that is given here, and I think that more will be done to consolidate what we stand for—unity of purpose, not alone in this crisis, but in everything that concerns our nation—than has been done for a very long time.
I think that, on behalf of my colleagues, I can subscribe very fully to the method of approach made to this question, on the one hand, by the Minister, and, on the other hand, by Deputy Mulcahy. I have no experience whatever in connection with local government matters, and for that reason I hesitate to say very much about it, but I do hold that, with the limited powers which will be exercised by the local authorities, as a result of the coming into operation of the managerial system, it will be very difficult, even in normal times, to get any men to go forward for these elections. If that should be the case, I would regret it, but we are also faced with the fact that it will be extremely difficult, in existing circumstances, to get men from the different Parties to go forward, in these critical times, considering the long distances that would have to be travelled to attend meetings of local authorities and the difficulties of transport that exist at the moment and are likely to continue for some time. However, I am satisfied that our people would subscribe very fully to a joint appeal for the purpose mentioned by the Minister on the one hand, and by Deputy Mulcahy, on the other hand.
As a member of the Fianna Fáil Party, I wish to state that, while I am not opposed to the holding of local elections, I came in contact, during the last week or so, with very many people down the country, especially, members of the L.D.F. and L.S.F., and I found that among those people there is an absolutely unanimous opinion against the holding of such elections I want to state clearly that that was the feeling that I got from my contacts with these men, and that opinion was given to me by men who support both sides of this House— men who are followers of the Fianna Fáil Party and of the Fine Gael Party. I wish to state that clearly, and for that reason I am not as sanguine of the results of a joint appeal as previous speakers seem to be. I should like to see such a joint appeal issued, and I would do my best to see that it would have a good effect, but I am not convinced that it would have the overwhelming success that Deputy Mulcahy thinks it would have. It must be remembered that elections convey just one impression to the Irish mind, and that is politics.
That is an Irishman's conception of an election—that his Party, whatever it may be, must be supported when an election comes on. It is useless for Deputies to think that they are going to get that idea out of the people's heads simply by asking them to think of the present position. I agree with a lot of what Deputy Davin has said, that it will be very difficult to get men to go forward for election. I know that a number of the present county councillors are not anxious to seek re-election. On the question of the selection of candidates, who is going to do that if it be not done by the political Parties? Does anybody think that there is going to be a spontaneous uprising of men filled with the desire to render public service? I would like to think so, but I am not convinced that you will have anything of the kind. Speaking for myself, I am not against the holding of the elections, and if a joint appeal is issued I will do my best to see that it meets with a successful response. At the same time I think it is only right that, as a member of the House, I should voice the opinions I hold with regard to the holding of elections at the present time.
Mr. Byrne
I do not want to damp the atmosphere that has been created by the speeches of the Minister and of Deputy Mulcahy. I agree with much of what the last speaker has said. I cannot conceive of bodies of men coming forward and selecting themselves for election to local bodies. Instead, you will see candidates selected by groups, political or otherwise. The test applied to a candidate will be not his ability in municipal or local affairs, but the label he wears, whether it be Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Labour or something more advanced and the service that he has rendered under a particular flag or label. On how he gets through that test, he will receive votes. In my opinion, a joint appeal from Parties in the Dáil will have no effect whatever in getting support for a candidate at an election.
If elections are held and meetings addressed at Baggot Street Bridge, the Five Lamps or some other place in the city, questions will be asked about the national services rendered by the candidates. That is what happens in Dublin, and I am told that the same is true of the country. A man's national outlook and the service that he has rendered in the national movement will be brought forward in his favour at those meetings. We have seen it happen that business men of very great ability, who in their own way rendered very good service to the community, were left at the bottom of the poll and sometimes received no votes at all when they sought municipal honours, simply because they were not known to be identified with any particular movement or agitation. That has been the experience of some very fine business men. I do not think I am belittling political records when I say that it is only candidates who are known to be attached to one or other of the political groups who will get votes at a municipal election.
Our municipal and other public bodies have got on very well during the past three years and during the emergency I think we might leave well enough alone. We are told that we have no newsprint stocks. The evening newspapers have been cut down to one sheet, and imports of paper are not likely to arrive before September. The responsible officials in the Dublin Corporation can get no guarantee that paper will be available for the printing of the 300,000 ballot papers required in the event of the municipal elections being held. Transport would be another difficulty, especially in the case of old people who, as a rule, are taken to the polling booths. If they are not able to go out and vote it is likely of course that others will vote for them. It is said, too, that the number of people who have left this city and county during the last two years is in or about 28,000. Their names are on the register, but if the elections are to be held fairly soon they will not be able to return to vote.
The position is that the people's minds are not on the holding of elections. They are more concerned with bread and butter matters, and of what is going to happen in the country from the employment point of view. I would appeal to members of the House to speak out their minds on this matter. I am sure that neither the Minister nor Deputy Mulcahy will object to that.
Supposing the elections were held, I do not believe that a joint appeal would mean anything. The people will not listen to it. We know what happens. One group putting forward candidates will stress all their good points. Another group will come along and expose their bad points. I believe that a lot of bad blood would be aroused in that way and hence I do not think the time is ripe for the holding of elections. I would appeal to the Minister to stick by his old Bill and postpone the holding of elections until the present emergency is over when the people will be more settled down and when those who have left the country will have returned. I am definitely opposed to the holding of elections at the present time. It will be a sad day for Dublin City if they are to be held. We have a city manager who is working so strenuously day and night that his hair is getting grey at it. I understand that in other parts of the country the Minister found it necessary to abolish some of the local boards.
Twenty-one of them.
Mr. Byrne
I do not know anything about them, but what I do know is that there was no justification whatever for the abolition of the Dublin Board of Assistance.
That does not arise.
Mr. Byrne
The question of abolishing boards——
——Is irrelevant.
Mr. Byrne
The Minister was quite wrong in abolishing the Dublin Board of Assistance.
That is quite outside the Bill.
Mr. Byrne
We would be all anxious to have the elections to ascertain the feelings of the people as to whether the Minister was right or wrong in the action that he took in those cases. Apart from that, I do not think the time is ripe for elections. The public do not want them. I would not like to see municipal elections used as a sort of a sounding board by those who want a general election. I would appeal to the Minister to say that this is not the time for the holding of these elections.
I would like to add my voice to what has been said by the Minister and Deputy Mulcahy that a joint appeal might be issued to the electors in the event of elections being held. If it be held that such an appeal is necessary, I do not believe there is anybody who would refuse to join in it although, speaking for myself, I do not think there would be any great necessity for making it. I believe that if and when local elections are held in the country generally—I am not speaking for the City of Dublin, as I have not as much knowledge of it as Deputy Byrne—there is no danger whatever of the heat being engendered that some Deputies fear. If I might add my voice to the appeal that was made, I say that we should appeal to the electors that politics should have no place in the selection or election of candidates. I was a member of a local authority for a number of years. I am glad to say that in the composition of that body there were members with various political associations.
In the majority party—if one could call it a majority party—the party that elected the chairman, because the majority had to elect the chairman, there were members of different political persuasions. There was no room for sectional politics as we saw them later. Politics have been the curse of local government in this country since they were introduced into local elections. I will not say who was to blame for that. If we could get back to the position which obtained in the first 20 years of local government we would have the proper men elected in nearly every county to carry on local government and perhaps there would be no necessity for such measures as have recently been brought in.
I believe that it is necessary to have local elections. As the Minister said, in some few cases electors have not had an opportunity of electing representatives since 1928 and generally it is about eight years since there was an election held. The people are much more intimately concerned with having local elections held frequently than they are with general elections. They are very often more intimately concerned with the question of local finances than they are with the question of national finances. They are interested in the matters affecting their daily lives and the upkeep of the poor. The mere fact that the Department felt it necessary in recent years constantly to dissolve councils is in itself evidence that an appeal to the people is long overdue. If the people had got an opportunity five years ago of deciding who should carry on their local affairs, I believe the necessity would not have arisen for dissolving so many councils.
Personally I do not think that there is any danger of heat being engendered by local elections being held this year. I must say, however, that I believe the holding of such elections before the 30th September would not be advisable, because they would interfere with the tilling and harvesting operations. That being so, it may be necessary for the Minister to postpone the elections until after the 30th September. But I should not like to see the elections put off beyond the end of the year. I think they are long overdue and that the people ought to have an opportunity, particularly now when local government is about to assume a different aspect from that which it had in previous years, of electing new representatives.
I believe that the elections can be carried on without causing any upset in the country. While I think it might be inadvisable to hold them before 30th September, I think they ought to be held before the end of the year.
Listening to the Minister's speech and the appeal also made by Deputy Mulcahy, I think it would be a good spirit to create in the country. My opinion is that politics are the curse of county councils. I was a member of a county council from 1928 until it was dissolved. In the early days we had not so much politics, but when politics were brought into the council the business of the ratepayers was not looked after properly. If this atmosphere could be created in the country and if politics could be done away with in connection with county councils, you would have good county councils. I am sure that if an appeal were made to people to come forward as candidates the right type of men with a good civic spirit would come forward. I think that no Deputy should be a county councillor. My own personal experience is that when I was a county councillor before I became a Deputy I could do my work as a county councillor much better. When I became a Deputy I felt I could not really do my work properly as a county councillor. I really pity any Deputy who is also a county councillor. I think it should be made the law that a Deputy could not also be a county councillor. In that way you would do away with politics in connection with county councils, and I ask the Minister to bring in some amendment to this Bill to that effect. I think that the county council elections should be held because they are necessary.
In my county we have not had a county council for many years. I was one of those who was in favour of the County Management Bill. In many counties we have commissioners acting at present. I do not think that the commissioner did any harm in Westmeath. I do not agree with a lot of things that commissioners did, but they cleaned up a lot of things that wanted cleaning up. I heard nobody complaining of the commissioner in my county, except officials. I think the time is ripe to give the people a chance of electing local representatives because, if a crisis comes, the people will have somebody to call upon. The county councils could play a useful part in an emergency. When this question of local elections was first spoken of I and my Party were against the holding of them. But if the Government issue an appeal that there should be no polities in connection with these elections they will get the right type of people to come forward and act as county councillors.
I have been a long time a member of local councils and I always felt that no council should be allowed to outlive its mandate. My experience is that responsibility was borne in on me anew after every election, so that even if you have the same councillors re-elected, they would, I believe, take greater interest in public affairs and feel that they had fresh responsibilities. That is my view of the matter generally.
Why an election should now be pushed on this country, is more than I can understand. Why should there be an election at a time when we are short of supplies, short of many essentials? Nobody wants an election. I have not met one person outside this House who does not agree with this Bill postponing local elections. I agree with it, although my general views are as I have already indicated. I think the Minister would be making a great mistake if he did not go ahead with this Bill. I had not the privilege of hearing the Minister, and I was not here for the whole of Deputy Mulcahy's speech. Let us make no mistake about it, the country will look upon the appeal and counter-appeal put forward in this House to-night as not to rid local government of politics, but to make it the domain of politicians. If it is decided to go forward with the local elections, you will be, in effect, asking for a packed election for local government purposes. What right have we to say that only certain people should man the councils? The people outside have the responsibility of nominating and electing members of councils, not Deputies here. Irrespective of any appeal that we make here, what can we guarantee beyond our own personal behaviour at elections? We cannot guarantee the behaviour of people outside.
I agree with Deputy Byrne that this is not an opportune time for local elections. Anyway, from what direction is the demand coming? I cannot trace it. I feel that this is only going to be a sounding board, a try-out of the horses for the long-distance handicap—the general election. I believe you would be merely utilising local government for another purpose. If you want a general election, a political flare-up, why not have it? In my opinion politicians have spoiled local government in this country by running it purely on political lines. You will not purify a local government that has been infested with a political atmosphere for so long by the introduction of more politicians. You will not purify that atmosphere until people put themselves forward saying: "My interests are so-and-so, and I am going to ask my neighbours to elect me, and if they do I will carry out local administration to the best of my ability."
Unfortunately, the local bodies that you elect now will have scarcely any voice in local administration. Their main job will be to strike rates and hand over the money and the conduct of affairs to the manager. Can you not fit in the manager now without convulsing the country by means of an election? If an election is held now, you cannot expect to retain the solidarity that exists in various organisations. It is not fair to test the people in that way. If you have a spirit of unity among them just now, why seek to disturb that? Why not preserve it? I have not heard any sound argument advanced as to why you should have elections. Why was this case not put forward in 1939, when Dublin City and County and other boroughs throughout the country were due for their triennial elections? Why was an appeal not made then for an election? The elections were due in June, three months before the war broke out. Every day since then the case is stronger and stronger why we should not have an election. I do not think many people are bothering whether or not there are local elections. They will mean very little. Where commissioners are installed, let them work on.
I do not agree with Deputy Byrne in relation to the suppression of certain local bodies. I do not think the Minister made any mistake in suppressing the local bodies that were suppressed in Dublin City and County. I think they were overdue for suppression. It is just as well to remind some local bodies that they are not the masters of every situation, that there is an authority that will watch over them and see that if they do not administer affairs as they should, they will have to get out. At the same time, there would be no need for suppression if the elections had been carried out at the proper time, after the first three years had expired, but, of course, in the face of the world war, certain things were not possible. Remember what the Minister for Supplies told us to-day. He said, in effect, that by the end of 1943 he will not be in a position to guarantee anything. Why, in such circumstances, should we be obliged to have an election, to know who will elect a mayor here or there, and who will strike the rates?
The people outside who have to pay for everything will not, in my opinion, be caught by the birdlime that is now laid. If an election is authorised, the political parties will select their candidates either openly or secretly and, in my opinion, the whole thing will result in the worst type of secret politics. Do not imagine that any arguments put forward here will influence the people outside. I do not think that the people generally will take very much interest in local elections. I trust the Minister will go ahead with this Bill and postpone the elections to a more suitable period.
One has often heard of the glorious uncertainty of the turf. I think we have had here to-night a fine example of the glorious uncertainty of politics and the way in which politics can go. I was delighted to hear the speeches delivered by the Minister and Deputy Mulcahy. I think the date of the introduction of this Bill will be a memorable one. June 30th will, in my opinion, be long remembered. There are certain unique features about this thing. Certain Deputies who have spoken here have spoken, not as politicians, but as practical individuals giving what they believe to be honest views. If there was no other reason, that in itself was a good and sufficient reason for the Minister to present this Bill.
I have not very strong views one way or the other, but I do disagree entirely with a good deal that was said by Deputy Byrne and Deputy Belton. Deputy Byrne stated that there have been meetings held at Baggot Street and at all the street corners of Dublin City and in many parts of the country. I have been a member of a public body in County Louth since 1918 and I never addressed a public meeting in so far as local elections are concerned. Deputies are, no doubt, aware that County Louth was one of the cockpits in this country for many years, so far as politics is concerned. We were fighting elections there for 40 or 50 years when the rest of the country was, as it were, asleep. Louth is the only county in Ireland in which elections were held when other counties elected members of Parliament unanimously. That is an historical fact. Strange to relate, if a man wanted to get a seat on a public board in County Louth the best procedure that he could adopt was not to go on a political ticket. I have always gone forward as an independent; I never went on a political ticket. Every man elected on a local council who went forward as an independent invariably headed the poll in his area. That is the best answer I can give to Deputies who think that if any elections are held this year they will be fought on a political issue.
I think the time has arrived when we should take the people into our confidence. The danger I see at present is that the people are getting into what might be described as a lackadaisical spirit, a careless spirit; that might suit certain people, but at the same time it is not good for the country. If you allowed that situation to continue, it might happen that our people would never respond to any call either in the national or local interest. That is the danger I see. It is a danger particularly for us, who are inclined to be over-enthusiastic and to take things too seriously. It is one of our characteristics that we take everything up very enthusiastically and drop it like the proverbial hot "spud". It is no argument to say that the people do not want an election. Nobody ever wants an election. The people did not want an election in 1932 or 1922. The same thing applies to local elections. Ask the ordinary man in the street if he wants an election, and he will say "No". That is not a reason why there should not be an election. If we are not to have an election during the emergency, we should remember that the emergency may last for the next five or ten years. What is going to happen then? The Japanese Premier said the other day that the war might go on for 100 years. I myself expressed the opinion at the beginning of the war that it might last for 20 or 25 years. Are we to have the same argument regarding local elections at the end of 20 years? Of course, none of us will be in a position to put up that argument at the end of 100 years.
Whether the Minister holds the election or not, the speeches delivered here will have a good effect in the country. From my experience, I should say that, if the elections were held, they would not create any great division in the ranks of the L.D.F. or L.S.F. I am one of those who have taken very little part in organising either force. I was wise enough to realise that the further T.D.s kept away from such organisations the better for those interested in them. I firmly believe that local elections would not involve any dissension in these bodies. We have very little confidence in the young men who are members of these associations if we think otherwise. If we cannot have elections without the fear of bursting up the country, the sooner we decide not to have any councils the better. Let the business be carried on by a few officials. That is the obvious conclusion to which one must come if that contention be accepted. Deputy Belton says that, if an election were held, it would be exclusively confined to the politicians. I say that it would not and I shall give my reasons.
Everybody who knows anything about the public life of this country knows that one of the things that kept a good type of man from coming forward as a candidate in the local elections was the fact that candidates were selected at political conventions. From the sentiments expressed on both sides, I take it that there will be no such thing when the elections are next held as conventions to select candidates for public bodies and that there will be no such thing as political meetings. That being so, you would have a good type of man coming forward. I never saw any reason why political meetings should be held in order that candidates should be elected to an urban council or a county council. It is sufficient to go around and meet the people. The people are not slow—not nearly as slow as they are supposed, in some circles, to be. There were men on our public bodies who, possibly, were not the best type of representative, but the people had the happy knack of removing these members from the councils after a short period. It might take a few years but they did it eventually. That type of representative, ultimately, met his Waterloo. When all is said and done, the people of this country are not by any means slow.
The Minister will have to decide this matter himself and I am not going to try to rush him as to when the local elections will be held. He may or may not hold them at an early date. I am agreeable to any course. but I am delighted, at the same time, with the turn this discussion has taken. I was one of those who opposed the Managerial Bill. I have since come to the conclusion that it would be much better—I expressed these views before—to put that Act into operation than to have the present position continuing much longer. Councils, as at present constituted, do not know where they stand and neither do the officials. Deputy Belton and Deputy Byrne must admit that. My experience is that we have to refer practically everything to the Local Government Department. Small matters were, accordingly, mentioned in the debate on the Estimate for the Local Government Department—the dismissal of a driver in the employment of the South Cork Board of Health, for instance, a matter that should not be discussed here at all. A manager could deal with that matter and a hundred other things if the managerial system were in operation. Whether these elections are held or not, that Act should be put into immediate operation, so that members of public bodies will know where they stand.
It would be in conformity with the glorious uncertainties of this debate if I were to express myself in disagreement with the other two independent Deputies who have spoken. It is my definite opinion that it is desirable that the local elections should be held at the earliest possible date. The foundation on which the freedom of this country rests is the right of the people to elect their own representatives both on the national and local bodies. Anything that tends to impinge on that right is an infringement of the freedom of the country. Having regard to the extent democracy has been weakened throughout the world, it is desirable that this country, at least, should prove that it stands for the right of the people to elect their own representatives and make their own regulations and laws. There is a movement at present, particularly amongst the more highly educated people in this country, in favour of something in the nature of a benevolent dictatorship. I think that that movement is taking shape and nothing would tend more to restore to the people the rights to which they aspired for so long and which they have held for only a very brief period than an early appeal to the electorate in so far as local government affairs are concerned. The local authorities have long outlived their statutory term of office.
It is desirable that if local elections are held they should be held in every one of the Twenty-Six Counties. I do not know of any reason why people in counties where local authorities have been abolished should be deprived of their right to select their representatives. The Minister referred to the possibility of the elections being held on days when, generally speaking, the people are not working. I presume he was referring to Sundays or Church holy days. It would be most undesirable to hold elections on such days. A resolution was forwarded to me some time ago by a representative body asking me to put down a motion that Church holy days should be recognised as public holidays but, owing to the congested condition of the Order Paper, I did not put down the motion.
I consider that our people are becoming dissociated from the work of local authorities and that they are getting out of the habit of criticising or interesting themselves in local elections. That would be most regrettable. It would, certainly, be detrimental to the future of this country if the mass of our people ceased to concern themselves with the selection of representatives who would best be able to serve their local interests. Our aim, purely and simply, should be to consider if it were in the best interests of the country to hold elections. I am convinced that the answer should be in the affirmative. I do not think that, as far as the constituency in which I am most interested is concerned, it would be possible to have a better representation, irrespective of political outlook. Possibly that might not apply to every county in the State for which this House has to legislate. As a strenuous opponent of the managerial system, I am not yet convinced of its efficiency.
I rather regret that power should be taken out of the hands of local authorities but, while doing so, I would not support any legislation which would delay the putting into practice of the governing authority of the people. As Deputy Belton pointed out, this war may continue for a number of years. Is a generation to grow up without having any association with local administration, and without any scrutiny over the actions of those who are possibly more concerned in their every-day lives than any other class of representative? Is a generation to grow up without having an opportunity of expressing their views on local affairs? The point made by Deputy Cogan is worthy of attention, from the point of view of the national interest, that a wave of the dictator mentality is prevalent all over the world. I was surprised to hear it stated that an intellectual group was aiming to bring about dictatorship here. I do not think that any such proposal would be considered here. No matter how we differ on many questions, I believe that the great majority of our people intend to retain power in the hands of the people. A continuance of local bodies in office for a longer period than eight years, without giving the people an opportunity of expressing their views, would, I think, be regrettable. Accordingly, in the national interest and to stimulate the interest of the people in their own affairs, I consider that we should have these elections.
Just before I heard that Deputy Mulcahy had joined with the Minister in the view that these elections should be held, that there should be an appeal from the different Parties to the electorate to see that these elections were carried out in the spirit of the present time, and with knowledge of the dangers that threatened, I was engaged in writing a short note for the Press. Although it only partially concerns this particular Bill, I ask the leave of the House to read the portion that I have written and to develop it somewhat further. The question of holding the elections, and the reasons for holding them, have been discussed in a general way, and it was suggested by one Deputy that they were intended only as a sort of "try-out" for the general election. What I was writing, to be sent to the Press through the Information Bureau, is as follows:—
"The statement of Deputy Mulcahy that the Government ‘contemplated rushing a general election at once' is without foundation. No decision in regard to the holding of a general election has yet been taken.
The Local Government elections will, however, be held within the next few months. The exact date will be announced as soon as possible.
In regard to the general election the position is as follows:
As the law stands, a general election is due to be held before this time 12 months. In view of the international situation and the obvious inadvisability of disturbing the national unity which exists, the Government would, naturally, propose to delay the holding of an election as long as possible. Apart from any element of danger, the holding of an election presents many practical difficulties, the inadequacy of transport facilities being perhaps the chief. An unrepresentative poll may be the result, with a consequent possible weakening of the influence of the resulting Government.
Notwithstanding the difficulties, however, the Government must hold an election unless there is agreement amongst the political Parties that, in the national interest, it is inadvisable. The Opposition Parties are entitled, if they desire it, to have the opinion of the country tested, and for a Dáil majority to refuse it would lead to dangers greater than those it might be sought to avoid."
That represents our general attitude in regard to the general election. Nobody wishes at the present time to disturb the general unity that exists. That is true also with regard to local elections. The question is: Can we not hold these elections without disturbing that unity? The principal Parties here believe that it can be done. There are, of course, practical difficulties. Although we may desire the elections to be held in a certain manner, we are in no position to see that our desire is carried out generally. But we can set a headline, and I believe that that headline will be followed. It is in that spirit that we have decided, taking it all in all, that the best interests of the country would be served by holding these local elections.
As regards the general election, we fully recognise the dangers, but there are dangers, too, in not holding it which are very great. I think, however, everybody will admit that it is desirable it should not be held earlier than is necessary. That is our position. We believe that, in the national interest, an election ought not to be held before it is necessary. Under the law, without any change of the existing law or practice, it must be held within 12 months unless the situation is such that all Parties agree—and I believe all Parties do agree—that an election should not be held, in the national interest, and that the situation was such that it was apparent to the people as a whole that an election should not be held. On the other hand, it would not be right for a majority party— even though they felt that the minority was wrong—to allow itself to be put into a position, as long as it was the Government, of appearing to deny to those who contested their right to govern the opportunity of having that question decided by the people. I am talking freely and frankly of the situation as I see it. I regret that the time for an election should come in a time of crisis. As one Deputy pointed out, we have no idea how long this crisis may last. If the country is to get over the difficulties that the present situation is going to bring upon it, it will only do so by having a Government that has the full support of the people. If it can be said that the Government is hanging on to office, or is unrepresentative, that will not only weaken us internally but will also weaken our position vis-a-vis outside countries. That is the position as we see it.
With regard to the local government elections, I assure the House that, as far as we are concerned, it is not a question of trying to have a preliminary test of public opinion, or a preliminary canter. We can take the two separately. In a sense, they are separate and, for the moment, we can confine ourselves to discussion of the local elections. Deputy Mulcahy did not make his statement, I am sure, without, in his opinion, having some basis for it. It is possible that inquiries which had to be made to see if it was possible to hold local elections, justified it. I want to say there was no other thought whatever in any talk there was. Naturally, the question would be asked, in circumstances like the present, when these elections were going to be held. In normal times, the possibility is that they would be held this autumn or in the spring. These are the times at which elections would be held. My own view is that, in present circumstances, it is desirable to postpone a general election until the legal position demands that it should be held. The other elections are long overdue. In that regard, we would welcome any views expressed in regard to the general election date or we can leave it for another occasion. We will welcome any views expressed by the Opposition Parties in that regard.
I propose, with the permission of the House, to withdraw my amendment. Perhaps the House would then consider the measure and that a few minutes might enable it to be finished now.
If the House is agreeable.
Agreed.
I wish to say that I appreciate and accept entirely what the Taoiseach has said. I appreciate the spirit in which he took the remarks I made in my speech last night. I think it was most useful to hear his statement, with the spirit of which I entirely agree.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Main question put and agreed to.
Has any time been fixed for the local elections?
Not definitely.
I suggest that August would be a suitable time.
The farmers will be busy reaping the harvest then.
I understand that it is proposed to take the Committee Stage of this Bill next week and that then the Minister, after consultation, might be able to indicate what he has in mind.
I will be able to do so on the Committee Stage.
Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, July 7th.
The Dáil adjourned at 9.40 p.m. until 3 p.m on Wednesday, 1st July.