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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 8 Jul 1942

Vol. 88 No. 2

Local Elections (Amendment) Bill, 1942—Committee (Resumed), and Final Stages.

Question again proposed:—"That Section 3 stand part of the Bill."

The following appears in Section 3:—

The Minister shall, before the 30th day of September, 1943, by order appoint in respect of every local authority a day not later than the 30th day of September, 1943, to be the appointed day for the purposes of this Part of this Act in respect of such local authority.

The Minister has indicated that it is hoped to hold local elections some time around the middle of August. The portion of the section I have quoted sets out "every local authority". I understand from certain remarks of the Minister last night, and a certain implication in the Chair ruling amendment No. 2 out of order, that there are some local bodies that are at the present time dissolved in respect of whom it is not intended to hold an election. Will the Minister indicate what are the local bodies that are not included in the words mentioned here—"every local authority"?

On the 20th May last, in reply to a Parliamentary Question put by me, the Minister circulated a schedule which was printed in the Parliamentary. Reports and which set out seven county councils that have been dissolved. I should like to know from the Minister in respect of the county councils of Tipperary (S.R.), Kilkenny, Laoighis, Waterford, Westmeath, Dublin and Clare, whether it is intended that an election will be held for those local bodies on the appointed day and, if not, will he say for which of these bodies it is not intended to hold an election, and what is the law or the regulation governing the matter that excludes these from the term "every local authority".

Deputy Beegan raised a very important point here yesterday in connection with the polling day. I think most of us who are acquainted with rural districts are quite satisfied that the 15th August would be definitely the most suitable polling day in so far as rural Ireland is concerned. I think the same thing applies to the towns and cities. We are definitely going to have a very small poll. I do not think there is any doubt about that. It is a very busy time of the year. Farmers would find it very difficult to leave their harvesting operations. I fail to see why there should be any opposition to the fixing of the 15th August for polling day. In most towns all over Ireland people work on holydays as they work on ordinary days and I do not see any objection to having polling on a holyday. I wish the Minister would take these facts into consideration and decide on the 15th August as the polling date.

I agree that it is very undesirable to have polling day during the month of August owing to the fact that it is a very busy season of the year. It is possible, and very probable, that harvesting will be in active operation during the middle of August. I do not agree, however, that the 15th August should be fixed as polling day. I think it wholly undesirable to use Catholic holydays for that purpose. The fact that work is carried on on those holydays in towns and cities does not justify extending the principle. There is also this argument against it, that a very considerable amount of time would be required on that day for Divine Service and as the number of hours for polling is hardly sufficient, as has been pointed out already, it would make the matter more difficult. I suggest that the date should be fixed some time about the middle of October. By that time the main harvesting operations will be completed and I think that in every way the time would be more suitable. In addition to the time which would be lost from harvesting operation on the actual polling day, it must be remembered that the majority of candidates going forward in these local elections will be farmers and agricultural workers and people who would be normally engaged in agricultural work. In order to make the necessary arrangements for election purposes they would have to devote a certain amount of their time to election work, time which would be taken from their ordinary harvesting operations. That would be very undesirable. Therefore, I suggest that some time in the middle of October would be the most suitable date for polling.

Mr. Brennan

Will the Minister not tell the House if it is intended to have elections for every local authority as set out in that particular section, or are there certain local authorities for which the Minister does not propose having a contest?

I can only refer the Deputy to my reply yesterday in that matter.

Mr. Brennan

We are discussing a Bill that is before the House, and this matter arise on a section of the Bill, which sets out very clearly every local authority.

May I point out that, on the contrary, the Ceann Comhairle definitely ruled out of order yesterday an amendment which would propose to compel the Minister to hold an election?

As I understand it, the Minister told us yesterday that he did not intend to hold an election for County Dublin, and I do not think that he gave us any other information.

I was not asked for any other information.

I am asking the Minister to consider the important subject we are dealing with. He himself dealt at very great length with the importance of the subject in about the last two-thirds of his speech on the Second Reading. They have not had an election in South Tipperary since June, 1928. Surely the electorate of the County Tipperary are entitled to know at the earliest possible moment, and can best know by a statement made by the Minister here, whether, in the case of their county, an election is going to be held.

In proper form. May I suggest, Sir, you having already ruled yesterday, that if I made a statement of the kind required by Deputy Mulcahy, a debate will be opened on the whole of the matter and I do not propose to allow it to be opened in that way. I am perfectly prepared to give to the House on an appropriate occasion full information in relation to this matter.

Mr. Byrne

Why not now?

The Chair ruled yesterday that an amendment which, in effect, would repeal Section 3 of the Act of 1937, making it obligatory on the Minister to have elections in those places, was out of order.

I submit that does not prevent discussion.

Whether the Minister has power to have elections in the places in question is not a matter for the Chair to pronounce upon.

As I understand it, the Minister probably has powers to hold an election any place, but I do submit to the Minister that he is treating the matter in an extraordinary way, in view of the fact that we are passing a Bill here for certain purposes and on the occasion of that Bill he makes a definite announcement that the election that is referred to in Section 3 of this Bill will take place in the middle of August. Now, this is the 8th July, 1942. More than 14 years ago, in June, 1928, the electorate of South Tipperary were called upon to elect a county council. If the election is to be held in the middle of August, they are now being given five weeks. Surely it is important that they would be told now whether an election is going to be held. I do not want to start a question and to hunt the Minister down, because he is going to refuse to have an election, say, in County Clare. I am only asking for information, and I feel that I would be entitled to badger the Minister and to complain about it, and to make use of the discussion on this Bill to complain about it, if we do not get that information.

I am perfectly prepared——

The Chair is with the Minister this far—that a debate on the reasons for the abolition of the local councils would not be in order.

I am not at variance with the Chair on that.

Does the Minister realise that not holding an election in County Dublin will mean that a new Dublin Board of Assistance cannot be constituted or appointed?

I realise the full implications. I will help the House and Deputy Mulcahy to this extent, that where a local authority has not been abolished within the past 12 months the elections will be held, that is to say, that in the case of Tipperary and these other counties which I think he, quite justifiably, is concerned about, the elections will be held, but in regard to the other matter, should a suitable occasion for discussing it arise, other than on this Bill, I am prepared to give the reasons why I do not think it desirable that in the case of any local authority which the Minister has been compelled to abolish within the past 12 months the election should be held.

Do I understand that that refers to the Dublin County Council that was abolished on the 27th September, 1941, the Dublin Board of Public Health, the Balrothery and Rathdown Boards of Assistance and the Dublin Board of Public Assistance, so far as Dublin is concerned and the Clare County Council, which was abolished on the 17th April, 1942, involving the Clare Board of Health and Public Assistance and the Ennis Mental Hospital Committee?

Two others have been added to the list since—the Killarney Urban District and the Edenderry Town Commissioners. In their case the Order may not have issued.

It means simply in any council that has been abolished over 12 months there can be an election.

Are there other decisions still outstanding?

There may be.

What is going to happen in those cases?

I have to consider the evidence.

It would be well to get early information on that if the Minister intends to hold the election in mid-August.

As soon as I have an opportunity of studying the report of the inquiries, a decision will be taken in regard to these bodies.

I should like to be more clear about the decision in regard to the Dublin Board of Assistance. Is it the decision that, after an election has been held for County Dublin, the board will be set up again?

I am not going to undertake that.

Deputies are going outside the limits of the Bill.

One of the functions which the commissioners who have been appointed to administer the affairs of the Dublin Board of Assistance have been given is to investigate the operation of the present method of administering home assistance in the city and to make recommendations to the Minister for its complete reorganisation. I do not know what action will follow the report which they will make conveying to me the results of their investigations, but it is a matter that is going to warrant the most serious consideration. As a result there may be fundamental changes made in the system of administering home assistance in the City of Dublin. For that reason, pending the report of the commissioners and the consideration of that report, I am not going to pledge myself to set up the board of assistance in its original form at any rate.

Would the Minister make it as clear as possible that there may not be further abolitions between now and the date of the elections?

I am not going to bind myself in any way.

Is it possible that there may be?

It is possible.

Can the Minister give any reason why elections will not be held in counties where the local authorities are not at present functioning?

That would involve going into the reasons for abolition.

Mr. Brennan

It does seem to penalise the ratepayers.

The Deputy may be perfectly certain that the ratepayers do not regard themselves as being penalised in most cases.

Has the Minister definitely decided to hold the elections in August?

Has the Minister any regard for the season of the year? Between now and the middle of August the people in rural Ireland will be engaged in hay-making and in collecting the hay into the haggards. The harvest will be upon us in the middle of August. Is the Minister choosing a time when the rural community cannot devote any time to the local elections? Having waited for six years in the case of Dublin City and the Borough of Dun Laoghaire, and for eight years in the case of Ireland generally, could he not wait another couple of months and hold the elections in October when the harvest will in all probability be secure in the haggard? I would strongly appeal to the Minister if he wants to consult the electorate, to give the electorate a chance of giving him an answer. Otherwise they will not bother about the elections. It will be the greatest farce that was ever known in this country if the elections are held before October.

I would ask the Minister, if he has given any consideration to the question of whether local authorities are provided with the fullest equipment necessary for the conduct of the elections? Dublin Corporation would require more time than is indicated if the Minister proposes to fix August 12th, as the date of the elections. Has any consideration been given to that aspect of the matter?

This is becoming very much like an inquisition. I might assure Deputy Doyle that, in fact a questionnaire was addressed to all local authorities asking them whether they were in a position to hold local elections, and what position they were in in regard to the requisites which would be necessary for elections. I can say that, on the whole, very satisfactory replies have been received. I do not anticipate that local authorities, so far as the actual election requisites are concerned, will experience any difficulty. There may be a certain amount of difficulty in providing additional polling places but I think that these difficulties would persist, even if we were to defer the elections to a later date.

Might I ask the Minister to announce, as soon as possible, the date on which the elections will be held?

I announced, as nearly as I could, the date yesterday evening.

On the question of a suitable date, there will be a difference of opinion no matter what date is fixed, but if the Minister proposes to hold the elections around the 15th August, I would like to suggest to him that the elections should be held on the 15th August. That day is a Catholic holyday, and in rural areas people will be leaving their homes in the ordinary course to go to Mass. I would suggest that that is an opportune time to allow them to record their votes. I know there may be objections to holding elections on that day but, taking it on the whole, I think you would be facilitating the rural community if that day is selected. Owing to the lack of transport, the difficulty will be to induce the rural community to leave their homes and to go out to record their votes. If anyone has a grievance about the holding of elections this year, it is the people who live in the rural areas. The people in the towns have no grievance whatever, because they do not need transport.

Is that so?

If they cannot walk across the street they should not be allowed, even in normal times, to have transport. It is the people who live four or five miles away from polling booths who have a grievance in this case. If the incoming county councils are not to be representative of the urban communities alone, every facility should be given to rural communities to record their votes on that day. That is why I would suggest that the 15th August, if at all possible, should be selected as the polling day. It is a suitable date and, as I have already said, people in rural areas will be leaving their homes on that day. Everywhere there is a church, a polling booth should be provided in which these people could record their votes.

I was glad to hear the Minister say that he had communicated with the county councils asking them to fix additional polling booths, if they considered them necessary, to facilitate rural dwellers. That is most important, and I hope the returning officers in each county will not put any obstacle in the way of county councils in providing these additional polling booths. I am somewhat afraid that if the Minister has not advised his officers to facilitate the local councils and the local people by providing additional booths, these officers may possibly say that they have not ballot boxes, or that they would have great difficulty at this late stage in discovering suitable rooms or other requisites in areas where people have to travel five or six miles to get to a booth. There should be additional polling booths in these areas to facilitate people who would other wise have to travel long distances to record their votes. I hope the Minister has advised his returning officers to do all they possibly can to provide these additional booths. Again, I want to ask the Minister not to pass lightly over the suggestion to fix August 15th as the polling date. I do not agree with Deputy Belton that the period around the 15th August is the busiest time of the year. The date between the 1st and the 15th August is one of the slackest periods farmers will have between now and the 1st November.

It all depends on the area.

It will probably be the slackest period that farmers will have. A small amount of corn will be ripe between the 8th or 10th and 15th August. After 15th August up to 1st November is the farmers' busiest period of the year. There is not one week between 15th August and 1st November that could be called a slack period. Whenever the elections are held, I hope it will not be during that time.

On this question of a suitable date, I know that the Minister will find it impossible to please everybody, but if he fixes 15th August he may find himself in the position that the Church will not approve of it. I am inclined to agree with Deputy Davin that, at any period of the year, the agricultural community will say they are busy. I think they might find themselves just as busy in October with the potato harvest or something else. The month of August, however, has this definite advantage, that the people can make use of the long evenings. I think the Minister should fix a date in August, and make use of the long evenings by extending the time to 10 o'clock, so that the country people can record their votes after working hours. If they work up to 6 o'clock, there would then be four hours during which they could record their votes, and that is enough for anyone.

I should like to refer again to the point I raised yesterday about the difficulty which I am absolutely certain will be encountered by urban voters through having to vote for county councillors and urban councillors on the one day. I suggest that special care should be taken by the Minister to see that his returning officers in the country make the necessary arrangements to provide the people with an opportunity of recording their votes. I remember distinctly that at the last election in my native town—the register in Wexford is only 4,000—the people found great difficulty on account of the two ballot papers, one for the county council and one for the urban council. Coming up to the time when the booths were to close, the people had to go away because they were queued up outside and could not get in. I agree with Deputy Hughes that the hour should be extended. We are permitted, I understand, to have an extra hour, if application is made, but there should be a still further extension in order to ensure that the people will have an opportunity of voting. In my opinion, it will be difficult to get them to vote at all in this case, and perhaps 15th August, the date mentioned by Deputy Allen and others, would be a suitable day to have the election, as it might be more convenient for the people. I would ask the Minister again to revert to that question of holding the urban and county council elections on the one day. In my opinion that would create difficulties, and therefore the hour ought to be extended. I think the Minister suggested yesterday that there should be extra polling places, but I doubt it the boxes are available. I should like again to impress on the Minister that the holding of the two elections on the one day will create an amount of confusion, and I should like him to give the matter special attention.

I cannot see that there would he any difficulty in connection with the holding of the elections on 15th August, although I am not tied to any particular day. In regard to the opening of polling stations at 10 o'clock in the rural areas, it must be remembered that the presiding officers will require to attend Mass, and Mass in a number of country areas is at "old time." Unless the Minister is in a position to arrange——

We could close the polling stations.

Then I think 15th August would be the most suitable date, although we will not be in a position to know the result until the following Monday night.

When I mentioned this matter yesterday, I did not mean that it should be established as a precedent that those elections be held on Sundays or Church holidays. I mentioned it because of the fact that we are living in abnormal times.

We had a by-election on a Church holiday.

As far as my memory serves me, what Deputy Everett has stated is true; we had a by-election on 29th June some years ago. In that case, we are not establishing a precedent, and I am sure nobody in the House would be anxious to have the elections held on a holiday were it not for the abnormal times in which we are living. In the West of Ireland, there are a number of workers who have to be at their work at 9 o'clock in the morning, and they have to go a distance of ten or 12 miles. After their day's work on the bog, they are fairly tired—their journey alone is sufficient to tire them—and no matter what facilities you give them it would be fairly difficult to get them to take the trouble of recording their votes at all. If it should happen that only 15 per cent. of them voted, or even if 25 or 30 per cent. of them did so, it would be just as well not to hold the elections at all, because the result of such an election could not be considered as representing the views of the people.

It would not satisfy the people who did not vote?

Mr. Brodrick

I cannot see the reason for holding the elections on 15th August. We have nine Catholic holidays in the year. Reference has been made here to the number of people who will vote. I know that in the West of Ireland and in many other places there are "patterns" held on that day, and big numbers of people congregate from the different parishes. In one place in the West of Ireland, Knock, 15th August is a very big day; a number of people who would ordinarily be recording their votes in other parts of the country will be doing the pilgrimage on that day. The same thing applies in my own town. A number of business people there will be doing the pilgrimage. In my own parish there are four electoral divisions, one in Loughrea, two in Galway and one in Tuam. If some of the people from those areas were doing the pilgrimage to Knock, I do not know whether they would have an opportunity of recording their votes. It has been suggested that the hour should be extended to 10 o'clock, in order to give the people a further opportunity. I know that a by-election was held on 29th June, but it is also true that we had general elections held during very busy periods; we had them in June and in September, and in some places up to 60 per cent. of the people recorded their votes.

They had transport facilities then.

Mr. Brodrick

People in the ordinary rural areas had not such great transport facilities. It is the duty of the people to come and record their votes for those representatives whom they think will serve them best on the local authorities, and if they do not take the opportunity of doing so it is their own funeral.

I thought we had given sufficient reason why this election should not be held in August, but several Deputies have suggested that October is as busy a month as August. I do not think any farmer will agree with that. The main harvesting operations will be completed in September. A few farmers in backward districts may have a little corn or hay to get in. But in August it is altogether different. Every day counts. It would be an extraordinary thing—having regard to the need for saving our grain harvest and getting every ounce of grain that can be got from the land—if we had to interrupt the harvesting operations for the purpose of holding an election in August. In addition, I think it would be a great insult to religion——

Shame—dry up.

——if we were to hold an election upon the 15th August. I know that there is a strong demand for having these Catholic holidays made national holidays.

Mr. Byrne

Will the Minister state fully the position of Howth and not have the people there confused? Will they have separate polling booths? Will they get separate representation or are they merely thrown in with the ordinary voters of the City of Dublin —with the electors of Dollymount, Clontarf, North Strand, The Docks, and all around there? I hold that they are entitled to special representation.

That matter has already been dealt with by Act of the Oireachtas. I dealt with it yesterday in my reply to Deputy Fogarty. The position is that Howth is being merged in the city and there is no provision for special representation. Henceforward, Howth will be part of the City of Dublin and the people there will vote as residents and electors of the City of Dublin in whatever happens to be the electoral area appropriate to them. That was decided by the Dáil and, for that decision, Deputy Byrne must accept responsibility, with every other member of the House.

I do wish that we had not had the parade of piety we have had from Deputy Cogan, with the implication that some Deputies would insult religion. Every Catholic in the House is as concerned as he is that nothing should be done which would be wanting in respect or in deference to the religion which we all hold sacred but which we do not make a parade of in hypocritical fashion, as he has done, holding himself up to the nation as a Pharisee. The choice of public representatives is a very high civic obligation and it ought to be treated as such. Otherwise, we shall not get the type of representative which the country in the present emergency requires. You can be disrespectful to rightful authority by casting reflection upon the seriousness of these elections or by implying that the person who does cast his vote on that day is performing a mere, temporal duty. He has a moral obligation as well, and, While I shall not draw a line as between one obligation and the other, I, certainly, do not think that any statement made by a Deputy should leave our people under the impression that they are doing anything unworthy, or anything contrary to public morality, or insulting to religion by participating in the elections.

As to the date of the elections, opinions will differ. In one part of the country we are told, on the one hand, that one date is suitable and in another part we are told, on the other hand, that that is not a suitable date, that a more remote date should be chosen. In coming to a decision, a multitude of considerations have to be borne in mind—difficulties in regard to the provision of artificial light, suitability of the weather from the point of view of voters who may have to travel long distances without adequate transport, the fact that, having come to a decision to hold the elections, we ought to hold them as early as possible and not allow months to elapse in which, perhaps, bitterness and bad feeling will be engendered. If the thing has to be done, it is better it should be done quickly. It is, I think, in the national interest—with one or two exceptions, every Deputy is convinced that it is in the national interest—that the elections should be held. That is the answer to Deputies, like Deputy Byrne, who say that nobody wants an election. In the sense that most people in the county would like to avoid the trouble and inconvenience of an election, these Deputies may be right in their assertion. But I believe that the people of the country want to feel that, if this emergency becomes more acute and if our local conditions become more difficult, there will be on the local authorities men able to discharge the responsibilities which will, inevitably, fall upon them. I think that the people of the country will welcome the opportunity to put fresh blood into the local authorities.

It is a strange thing that, in this House, which is composed of the elected representatives of the people and which does, in fact, derive its authority from the people, there should be opposition to the holding of elections, that members elected to the corporation, or to this House, should seem to think they should continue to hold their seats in perpetuity. That is not the principle on which this State has been built nor is it the principle on which our local affairs are administered. It is an essential duty that we should give to the people, from time to time, as ordained by law, the right to say whether or not they are satisfied with their representatives or whether they desire to change them. Once we come to adopt as a guiding principle that elections must not be held because they cause a little trouble or inconvenience, that moment the whole structure of the State will begin to decay. It does not matter whether it is Deputy Byrne or some other Deputy who wishes to deprive the people of their right——

Mr. Byrne

You sent 28,000 people out of the city.

Having been elected as a representative of the people, if you wish to deny the people an opportunity of passing judgment upon you, I will not cloak——

Mr. Byrne

You sent 100,000 out of Éire.

Even though, there be great difficulties in the way and even though it may subject the people to some inconvenience, this Government, sustained, I am happy to say, by all responsible elements in the House, will endeavour to see, when circumstances warrant it, that the people will have an opportunity of considering the personnel of the local authorities. That is the one safeguard we have that democracy as we know it will continue to exist in this country.

Deputy Corish raised a question last night as to whether the county elections and the elections for urban authorities would be held on the one day.

I am satisfied; I am not objecting to the elections at all, and want to make it easy to hold them.

The Deputy also raised a point regarding the extension of polling hours. We have to allow a certain margin, in order to ensure that there will be good light in the polling stations, to enable persons of perhaps a little less than normal vision to mark their polling papers properly. We could not extend the hour beyond nine o'clock. Sundown will be about 8.30 at that period of the year, and it would not be desirable to use artificial illuminant, if it can be avoided, as the supplies are so scarce.

I am satisfied, if the Minister keeps an eye on the point.

We have addressed a circular to local authorities, of which I will read the last paragraph to the House, in order to show the steps that have been taken to obviate, so far as we can, the difficulties under which the public are suffering, having regard to the fact that transport facilities are exceedingly limited. The concluding paragraph is in the following form:—

"County councils are requested to meet at a very early date to consider how far the existing scheme of polling places meets the reasonable requirements of the electors, having regard to the shortage of transport; and to appoint such further polling places as they may consider necessary. Schools generally should be appointed, unless there is a courthouse or similar building already appointed. The existing scheme of polling places should be recast, where necessary, and any minor adjustments made, so as to secure that the same polling place will not be used for the polling in two different county electoral areas."

I may say also that, so far as we can and so far as it is necessary to enjoin it on the local authorities, we will see that every possible facility is afforded to those who may intend to vote. I suppose this is the only opportunity I will have, on this section of the Bill to deal with some of the remarks made. I deprecate very strongly the inculcation among the people of the idea that the poll for these elections will not be representative. I think we should try to induce everybody who possibly can come to the poll to come out and exercise the franchise on that day. If we keep on saying that people will not vote, and that sort of thing, some people will get the idea that the elections are not serious and that they are not expected to vote. That would be rather unfortunate. It would be much better if we started with the idea that we want them to vote an so discharge the heavy responsibility which rests upon them in the present circumstances of the country. If we say that men will be busy at the hay or bringing in corn, we will create the feeling in the minds of those people that those things are much more important than the elections and, therefore, that the elections can be neglected. Undoubtedly, the bringing in of the harvest is a very important matter, but this is the only opportunity that the people, living in country districts in particular, will have, for perhaps three years, of selecting the men on whom will devolve the administration of any special emergency services which may have to be set up in the near future. It is important, from the point of view of the people themselves, of their families and of their neighbours, that they should take pains to ensure that worthy people will be elected to the local bodies. They can only ensure that if they cast their votes for those people who, in their judgment, are best able to discharge the responsibilities which may be imposed upon them.

Section 3 agreed to.
SECTION 4.

I move amendment No. 3:—

In sub-section (1), page 3, to delete lines 5 to 10 and substitute the following:—

of the following sub-sections in lieu of the sub-section so deleted, that is to say:—

(1) The Minister shall, before the 30th day of September, 1943, by order appoint a day not later than the said 30th day of September, 1943, to be the appointed day for the purposes of this Part of this Act in respect of the council.

(1A) Whenever the Minister has by an order under this section (including an order under this sub-section) appointed a day to be the appointed day for the purposes of this Part of this Act in respect of the council, he may by a subsequent order revoke such order and appoint under sub-section (1) of this section another day to be the appointed day for the purposes of this Part of this Act in respect of the council.

This amendment is designed to deal with the special case of Cork City where, by reason of the various Acts which have been passed from time to time dealing with the holding of elections in Cork City, the Minister had not power, having fixed the appointed day, to defer that if circumstances seemed to render that course imperative. This amendment is designed merely to put Cork on all-fours with the rest of the country so that if, by any chance, between now and the 12th August, anything may happen—we hope and pray it will not—to make it necessary to postpone the elections, we will be able to postpone them also in Cork.

On the point of the late hours for polling, in many districts the people work by old time, and that means that a man must give up work at 7 o'clock and would have only two hours to get to the booth. The Minister might leave it an open question.

I will examine it again, but I would say that we have examined it thoroughly already. One of the reasons why we want to have the elections early is that we cannot get candles, and so on.

Amendment agreed to.
Section 4, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 5.
Question proposed: "That Section stand part of the Bill."

Sub-section (1) sets out:—

For the purposes of the application in relation to any local authority of Section 8, 9 or 10 (as the case may be) of the Local Elections Act, 1927 (No. 39 of 1927), and of Section 11 of that Act, the year 1942 shall be a year in which no triennial election to such local authority is held.

Would the Minister explain how that will operate, if we are at the moment going to hold a triennial election?

Sections 1 and 2 have to be taken together. Under the Act of 1927, in the year in which a triennial election is held the annual or the first quarterly meeting has to be held, in the case of county boroughs, on the 14th day after the election—in other words between the 23rd June and the 1st July. The general effect of the section will be that, where the election is held after the 23rd June and between that and the end of the year, the remainder of the year will be the year in which the triennial election is held.

Mr. Brennan

That means that the period is not circumscribed.

It means that anything done between the 23rd June and 1st July will be valid, but will only be effective until the first quarterly meeting of the new bodies.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 6, 7 and 8 and Title agreed to.
Bill reported with amendment.

When is it proposed to take the Report Stage?

Now, if the House is agreeable.

I think the Minister has given all the information we require.

Agreed to take the remaining stages now.

Question—"That the Bill be received for final consideration"—put and agreed to.
Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

Would the Minister be prepared now to give the House any information as to the position that will arise after the elections have been held and pending the coming into operation of the new Local Government Act and the County Management Act? There will be an interim period of probably six weeks or two months. Will the boards of health go out of existence during the period or have to await the coming into operation of the County Management Act? A problem may arise in that respect which will need some clarification. After the election and pending the coming into operation of the new Local Government Act and the County Management Act—I understand the date is 1st October—could the Minister say what will be the position with regard to boards of health and the situation in regard to local government generally in that interim period? Will it carry on as at present, or will the new Act come into operation after the elections have been held?

Deputy Allen has forestalled me. That is exactly what I wanted to know. I was anxious to ascertain what would be the position immediately after the elections. Will the county managers be appointed and take up office immediately, or how long will the new councils have to continue? Is there any general picture the Minister could give the House with regard to boards of public assistance and the functions of managers?

The Minister, in referring to the great importance of local bodies, remarked that upon these new bodies will devolve the administration of many emergency services which may have to be set up. I have been rather pressing the point—last year as well as this year—with regard to the importance of local bodies in the case of an emergency, and I got the idea from the Government that the local bodies would be rather in the ha'penny place if there was an emergency. Deputy Allen wiped them out completely when discussing the matter last year.

I had that position in mind. It looks like that, but I do not know.

I take it that it is not a question of any particular change of policy on the part of the Government in dealing with an emergency, or with any serious development of the situation here, but that it is a matter of the local bodies getting back into proper perspective in the eyes of the Government. Am I correct in thinking that this is just a matter of the local bodies getting back into proper perspective and will the Minister take steps, if these bodies are to have this importance in relation to emergency services, to correct members of public bodies in certain districts, such as Deputy Allen, who appear rather to deprecate that any serious responsibility should fall on them?

I do not deprecate it, but I have that feeling with regard to them.

To deal first with the point raised by Deputy Mulcahy, I do not think there is any real conflict between what I said to-day and the view Deputy Allen has taken, because, while we use the word "emergency," we are perhaps envisaging entirely different sets of circumstances. No doubt Deputy Allen had in mind the fact that regional commissioners have been appointed throughout the country and were ready to take up office in the event of hostile action against this country requiring a very large decentralisation of authority. I suppose it was to that extent he felt that, if the local authorities could not meet and function, the regional commissioners would carry on. I take the view, and it as the wish of the Government, that if such a state of affairs were to arise, the local authorities, to the extent possible, should carry on and function as they functioned during the 1920-21 period. At the same time, we have to consider a position in which perhaps sections of the country might be in enemy occupation and the local authorities would not be able to meet. There would have to be some person to act as a sort of co-ordinating authority, not merely of the functions which would normally be fulfilled by the officers of local authorities, but of the duties which would be discharged by the officers of the central authority. That is the position in which these regional commissioners were.

Apart from that, and from our hope that that situation will never arise, we are facing the position referred to by the Minister for Supplies and the Minister for Industry and Commerce in the course of the debates on his Estimates in which transport difficulties and difficulties in regard to supplies are going to become acute, and we may have to improvise machinery to be administered on the spot by people in whom the local communities have confidence. I cannot think of any persons more likely to attract that confidence than the members of the local authorities who would have to administer these special services, and, at the instance of the Government, to try to mitigate so far as they could all the difficulties and hardships which would arise by reason of the fact that supplies were falling, and that transport was breaking down and to deal with the other problems which, in all the ways in which we can imagine and which are perhaps too difficult to enumerate, will be occasioned by such a situation.

With regard to the point made by Deputy Allen and Deputy Brennan, the position is that, as the law stands, once these local authorities have been elected, they will carry on until the appointed day fixed by the Minister. The appointed day will be, we hope, 1st October, and it may be necessary to reconstitute the boards of health even for a temporary period of six weeks. I should say this, however, that if it is found possible to bring the Act of 1941 into operation before 1st October, we shall bring it into operation. But that will create certain difficulties for us and might create some difficulties for the new local authorities because of the fact that the new administration would trench upon the first half of the financial year. We were rather anxious, from the point of view of the preparation of accounts, that one half-year should be completed under the old system and that the new system should begin with a new half-year; but, if we can get the county managers appointed in time—and the Local Appointments Commissioners have been requested to take steps in regard to that matter—and can get the other arrangements made, even before 1st October, notwithstanding a certain amount of inconvenience which it would cause, we may bring the County Management Act into operation before the end of September.

Question put and agreed to.
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