I should like to refer to some of the statements made by the few people who came to the Minister's assistance with regard to Sunday opening. It was mentioned by Deputy Kennedy that the Sunday opening would affect the shop assistants. Deputy Kennedy's case was the only strong case made in opposing a reasonable opening on Sunday. He said if the licensed houses were to open on Sunday the assistants would have to work on Sunday the same as on other days of the week, and he indicated that there would be great hardship in that case. In a Bill like this, when you are trying to deal in a very general way with the intoxicating liquor business, you cannot allow yourself to be put off any particular principle by the reduction of an argument to some particular case. It may be said that any alteration of hours, whether on Sundays or week-days, is bound to dislocate the manner in which any business is run; but that is no answer to the arguments put forward in favour of a Sunday opening. Whatever affects the assistants or other people engaged in the business is purely a matter for the trade and not for the broad principle of legislation. When the first Bill was introduced and the split hour was imposed in the boroughs, you had somewhat similar arguments submitted. I cannot see any force in suggesting that there should be no country opening on Sunday just because it is going to affect the assistants. The Minister is aware that a great number of the licensed premises in rural districts are run by the owners and their wives and families.
The strongest point made on any side of the House in regard to Sunday opening, and I think it is the one point on which the Minister ought to give way, had reference to the due observance of the law. I think even Deputy Kennedy, who supported the Minister in his viewpoint, did not answer that part of the case. I have the feeling that when Deputy Kennedy mentioned that in his village there were different types of public houses, some that did not open on Sunday even for the bona fide trade and others that did, he was suggesting that an alteration of the Sunday hours would be completely for the benefit of the houses that catered already for the bona fide trade. I do not think that that would be so. There are quite a number of houses in the country that do not open on Sunday to cater for the bona fide trade just for the reason that they do not want to be bothered having to ask people at the door if they are travellers and where they came from, and having to satisfy themselves that by serving callers with drink they are acting within the law. I am quite satisfied that if there were reasonable hours of opening on Sunday in the rural areas the houses that at the moment do not open, even for the bona fide traffic, would be quite prepared to enter into normal trade competition by opening on Sunday afternoons.
So far as the hours are concerned, there has not been general agreement, even in the amendments, as to the proper hours for Sunday. There appear to be two sections of opinion, some who want a few hours in the afternoon in a continuous period, and others who would like an hour early in the day and a couple of hours in the evening. I do not think there is any great point in what hours the Minister decides upon so long as he grants some hours. I cannot quite understand why there should be such Ministerial objection to Sunday opening. I have tried to deal with this Bill, since it was introduced, as fairly as I could, and I have tried to look at it from the point of view of my experience in a professional capacity, being engaged in prosecutions under the Licensing Act and otherwise. I am convinced that a reasonable Sunday opening will strengthen the hands of the authorities.
Deputy O'Higgins said he was sure the Minister must have had experience of what could happen on a Sunday after a meeting. I am not concerned with whether the Minister was ever guilty of that type of breach of the licensing laws. What I am concerned with is the normal social life of the countryside. It is a recógnised fact that so long as a publican in the country is conducting his house properly, is not allowing people to get drunk and is not carrying on a noisy or a rowdy trade, the Guards will overlook people being allowed a certain amount of refreshment, and the reason for that attitude on the part of the Guards is that public opinion would not stand for anything else. If you allow reasonable hours of opening on Sunday, I am quite satisfied you will have public opinion behind you for the enforcement of the law during closing hours. The best thing in connection with any licensing legislation is to have the force of public opinion behind the Guards in dealing with breaches of the law during prohibited hours. As the law stands at the moment, they have not got a lot of moral force behind them and, if the Minister can do anything to improve that position, it will be much appreciated by the people.
I do not think there is anything in Deputy Kennedy's point about the assistants. In the towns to which he is referring—it is certainly so in the south—I am sure 75 per cent. of the licensed houses are run by the men who own them and by the members of their families. I think I would be safe in saying that in the rural areas there would be about one assistant employed for every 500 licensed houses. If there is any question of hardship on assistants, if there is any difficulty about the treatment assistants should get, it is a purely internal matter for the trade and not a matter affecting the broad principles of this Bill.
I do not like to press this matter any further. I am very anxious to hear from the Minister what his views are as regards Sunday opening. As I said, the Minister took the first step in the right direction in respect of the first one-third of the Bill—closing hours. We are now in the second critical stage —Sunday opening; and we shall meet later on the third stage on which, I understand, he is not as firm as he was. I should like to hear whether he has any stronger reason than I have heard for the continuation of what really is discrimination against the rural areas. I should like to put to him that if he were to agree to Sunday opening, it need not necessarily be based on fixed hours applying to the whole country. If public houses in rural areas are permitted to open for three hours on Sunday, I suggest that the hours be fixed by the justice at the annual licensing court on the application of the superintendent of the Gárda, to whom representations could be made as to what hours were suitable for particular districts. That would be an easy way of dealing with it. My experience of district justices and Gárda superintendents with regard to the question of area exemption orders is that they have been very fair and very good, and in a matter like this their assistance would be very valuable. As I say, I am trying to approach this matter as fairly as I can, and I would like to hear from the Minister if he has any weightier reasons for the continuance of complete Sunday closing in rural areas than we have so far heard.