Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 9 Dec 1942

Vol. 89 No. 1

Committee on Finance. - Vote 72—Emergency Scientific Research Bureau.

The Taoiseach

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £5,500 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1943, for the Emergency Scientific Research Bureau, including a Grant-in-Aid.

The original Estimate for the current year amounted to £19,000 made up as follows:—Sub-head A: Honoraria to members of the Bureau (£1,500) and incidental expenses (£250), making a total of £1,750; sub-head B: Grant in Aid of Investigation and Research, £17,250; making a total of £19,000. The sum of £5,500 now required for investigation and research brings the total under that sub-head up to £22,750 and the total net Estimate up to £24,500.

In moving this Estimate I outlined the method of work of the bureau and the principal investigations in which it was engaged. Deputies can refer to Vol. 88, No. 2, of the 6 o'clock. Official Debates for 14th to 17th July, 1942, if they wish to look up that part of the report, as I do not propose to repeat it now. I included in my statement a short account of the results which had been obtained, and I indicated the extent to which the bureau had proved to be of assistance to the Government Departments and to industrial firms.

Expenditure in the current year has been incurred mainly on the following: investigations on fuel problems, the production of supplies for refrigeration and water purification, the manufacture of disinfectants, organic, etc., acids, fish oils, sulphur and phosphorus, also investigations relating to geophysical survey, broadcasting, and marine algae, the production of medical supplies, carbon black, carbon electrodes, batteries, fertilisers, and so on, problems arising from shortages of iron and steel and a number of minor investigations; there was also, of course, expenditure on the office work of the bureau. The expenditure required for investigations and researches during the full year is now estimated at £24,622, an increase of £7,372 in the amount originally provided. This increase arises from estimated increases amounting to £10,393 on a number of investigations, offset by decreases amounting to £3,021 in the expenditure originally estimated for a number of other investigations. The gross increase is also offset by a sum of £994, being the unexpended balance of the Grant-in-Aid carried forward from 1941-42, and by income in respect of services or investigations carried out on a repayment basis, which will yield certain receipts estimated at about £900. This results in a net increase of about £5,500.

The gross increase of £10,393 arises from increased expenditure amounting to £6,345 on various aspects of the fuel problem, £247 on investigations into the production of organic acids, £60 on. the production of fish oils and sulphur, £3,235 on miscellaneous investigations and new work, and £506 on office work. The figure of £6,345 on fuel problems arises from an increase amounting to £6,480 in the investigation into the production of turf charcoal, less reductions totalling £135 in the amounts required for investigations on other aspects of the fuel problem. The items included in the sum of £3,235 required for miscellaneous investigations and new work are medical supplies, iron and steel, carbon black, carbon electrodes, batteries, fertilisers, marine algae, as well as a number of other investigations.

Most of the expenditure incurred by the bureau arises from investigations on various aspects of the fuel problem. In the seven months ended 31st October last, about £6,000 has been required for investigations on fuel. Of this latter amount, over £5,000 has been spent on investigations on the production of turf charcoal. This investigation is designed to obtain information on the operation of both small units and large plants.

The expenditure required by the bureau during the current financial year to investigate the production of turf charcoal in large plants is estimated at £10,880. At the time the Estimate was prepared it was expected that expenditure amounting to about £4,400 would suffice for the year. Additional expenditure of £2,000 to meet the cost of a power-house, condensing plant and temporary control laboratory, and of £4,480 in respect of operational expenses is, however, now expected.

When the bureau's plans for the investigation on turf charcoal in large plants were drawn up in July, 1941, it was expected that the power required to operate the plant could be supplied from the existing power station at Turraun. The load, however, required by the new plant is greater than was originally expected, and could not be provided without interference with the production of turf. A new power-station is consequently necessary for the bureau's plant. The condensing plant and temporary control laboratory are required to provide for the recovery of the gaseous by-products of carbonisation. It was not considered necessary when the plant was originally designed to include plant for this purpose. Subsequently, however, increased interest was aroused in the possibilities of tar, wax, and other by-products obtained from peat carbonisation, so that it became desirable to study methods for the recovery and utilisation of these by-products.

The experimental plant at Turraun comprises two full-size retorts, one of steel and the other of firebrick. The erection of these retorts has been completed, and considerable progress has been made in the construction of the power house, condensing plant and control laboratory. Heating of the producers and retorts has been in progress for some weeks, and it is expected that production of charcoal will commence in the near future.

In carrying out this investigation the bureau has not lost sight of the fact that it may not be possible to set up large plants under existing conditions to produce charcoal on the scale required. In the course of its work the bureau takes every opportunity presented to it to study methods proposed for the production of turf charcoal, and the lines of investigation which are now being followed by experimental work are those which appear most likely to meet the national need. The investigation on production in small units has included experimental work both in steel kilns and in pits dug in the ground. Promising results have been obtained, and it is hoped to conduct further experiments on a number of bogs throughout the country.

The most important of the other matters included in the fuel investigations are a study of the most suitable types of gas producer for use with available fuels, and the investigation of emergency difficulties in the manufacture of town gas. The work on producers has included work both in the laboratory and on the road into improvements of the filtration system, as well as a study of the most suitable fuels for use in tuyere and grate types of producer. Work on this problem has enabled the bureau to collaborate in a number of investigations being conducted by various commercial concerns. The bureau's recent work on town gas has been principally devoted to assisting in an examination of the problems relating to the use of turf. It is hoped to commence shortly to investigate the production of water gas from peat. Arrangements are also being made to commence an investigation on the catalytic enrichment of turf gas. This might also be important in connection with the possible development, after the emergency, of the production on the bog of gas from turf on the large scale.

The bureau's investigations into the production of various organic acids have now been discontinued, as it is expected that an industrial firm will set up plants for the production of citric acid and lactic acid. However, the preliminary work carried out during the year has resulted in greater expenditure than was expected.

For a considerable time the bureau has devoted attention to the provision of essential medical supplies. Experimental work has been carried out in collaboration with industrial firms which has resulted in the development of methods for the production of glycerine from concentrated soap lyes. The product so far obtained is suitable for use in the preparation of many medicaments, since it is of pharmaceutical quality in all respects except colour. An examination has been made into the building up of a reserve stock of solid, insulin, and methods of dissolving this substance have been studied. Experimental work has been carried out in connection with the standardisation of Irish grown digitalis.

Investigations under the head of iron and steel include an examination of the possibilities of relieving shortages of special alloy steels by the remanufacture of scrap, experiments on the production of iron by electro-deposition, investigations on the use of substitute fuels for melting iron, and the production of ferro-silicon for foundries. Following satisfactory laboratory experiments, the production of electrolytic iron on the large scale is now being studied with specially adapted plant and equipment. It is hoped that production on this plant will commence in the near future. Satisfactory results have been obtained from experiments on the melting of iron with hard turf charcoal made by high temperature carbonisation in gas works retorts.

In connection with the work on the production of carbon black, an experimental plant has been erected and trial runs made. Further experiments will be necessary before any conclusion can be reached as to the probable outcome of this investigation.

During the year an investigation was commenced into the possibilities of producing carbon electrodes suitable for use in electric furnaces. Preliminary experiments carried out in gas works were sufficiently encouraging to justify further work in collaboration with an industrial firm. A special furnace has been erected, and electrodes suitable for use in the manufacture of calcium carbide have been produced on a technical scale.

An investigation is in progress with a view to arrangements being made for the repair and manufacture of lead batteries in the country. A study has been made of the treatment of wood for the production of the separators, and experimental work has been carried out in a specially constructed furnace on the preparation of the lead oxides required. Preliminary work is also being conducted into the possibility of recovering zinc from used dry cells.

It was decided during the year that the bureau should investigate the production of improved fertilisers from indigenous deposits, and experimental work is now in progress.

The investigation on marine algae is mainly confined to collecting information on the occurrence on the western coast of Gelidium and related seaweeds with a view to providing material for use in the preparation of agar-agar. This work is a continuation of certain aspects of research on seaweed which has been in progress under the auspices of the Industrial Research Council. Useful results are being obtained, and one manufacturer has commenced the production of agar by means of a process developed as a result of work carried out under the auspices of the Industrial Research Council.

General Mulcahy

Some of us had the privilege of hearing Professor Dowling, who is chairman of the Emergency Scientific Research Bureau, give an account of the work of the bureau in University College on Monday last. Anybody who heard him would have to feel grateful for and appreciative of the amount of energy and ability that has been devoted to the work of the research bureau. The Taoiseach has now given us a further list, elaborating the number of matters to which the bureau is paying attention. Very useful and very important work is being done, and, if I speak in a critical way of the bureau now, it is not because I lack appreciation of the work that is being done. But I want to emphasise this, that while nobody will grudge the giving of public money to carrying out work and investigations now, keeping our young scientists working now and linking up our scientists with our industrial concerns on work that may be useful after the emergency, such as the production of gas from turf, the real thing that, I take it, we all want the emergency bureau to do now is to help us in the big and urgent problems that are the problems of the emergency. When we consider, from the accounts that we have got, the work done by the bureau that bears, say, on the transport problem—which, to my mind, is the really big and urgent problem of the emergency—we have to come to the conclusion, as far as the work that has been done by the bureau to get us over our transport difficulties is concerned, that none of the work is being done in the spirit of the emergency. That, probably, is not the fault of the bureau, but I think we ought to direct our minds to that aspect of our problem—that is, our transport problem— and to what the bureau can do in that regard.

From what we hear from the Minister for Supplies from time to time, and from what we know of matters that are troubling the minds of commercial and business people in the city, our transport position is a very precarious one. We might at any time, owing to the loss of a tanker or two, find ourselves in the position that transport, may I put it, of persons would be stopped in the City of Dublin, and that all the transport that could be made available would be used up in trying to keep the City of Dublin supplied with food and fuel. From the people connected with the transport business in the city, I understand that it would take at least 3,000 commercial vehicles to keep Dublin supplied with food and fuel in such an emergency as is thought to be a possibility. If we were left without petrol to do that, I understand it would take 60,000 tons of fuel for gas-producer plant to keep going the fleet of lorries that would be necessary to maintain the life of the citizens here. We are up against the very urgent question: can we have and how can we get the 60,000 tons of fuel that would be required for producer plant for a fleet of 3,000 commercial vehicles? The answer to that question is that, as we stand at present and from any work that is being done at present, we have not any chance of maintaining such a fleet of commercial vehicles as would keep Dublin in food and fuel. But there are ideas and there is machinery available that would, if mobilised and directed in an urgent way to the problem, produce the fuel that would give us that plant.

With regard to transport, the position seems to be that everything is being monopolised. The Department of Supplies or the Government generally look to two bodies—the Great Southern Railways and the Dublin Transport Company. These are the bodies that are being looked to and that are being depended upon to solve the transport situation in such an emergency as I speak about. All the brains, ability, equipment and experience elsewhere is being brushed aside, utterly unused. The emergency mind is being directed to providing a transport monopoly consisting of the Great Southern Railways and the Dublin Transport Company.

Let us first turn to the question of how we are to get the fuel. I understand that 60,000 tons of fuel would be required for the producer gas plant that would keep 3,000 commercial vehicles running. As far as I can ascertain, the fuel that would be available from anthracite and from wood charcoal would be only 10,000 tons. Then there is the question of turf charcoal. It might be that we would get a small amount of turf charcoal, but, from the descriptions given of the progress of the work, in University College the other night, I do not think that turf charcoal is going to add materially to the 10,000 tons we might expect from anthracite or wood charcoal. Then there is the question of acetylene. The amount of calcium carbide that is being produced in the country is only about 500 tons. Then there is the question of alcohol. Alcohol might run 50 lorries. But, taking all we might expect from turf charcoal, acetylene and alcohol, there is very little addition to the 10,000 tons from anthracite and wood charcoal.

The question is, where can we hope to get the rest? The answer is given by the experience of other people, people outside the two big monopolies that we have here. It is given by those engineering and motor firms that are plentiful enough in the City of Dublin and that are scattered pretty generally throughout the country, who, at the present moment, have men of intelligence, imagination and experience doing nothing. Their solution is raw wood, that producer plants made to use raw wood could equip the lorries that would be necessary to deal with the City of Dublin and, as a matter of fact, that these could be put into production now in order to solve the transport difficulty throughout the country as a whole.

I understand that in Germany, at the present time, no private car of any kind can run on anything but a producer plant, using raw wood as fuel. What is necessary in order to get lorries fitted with producer plant for which the fuel is raw wood? First, there are special materials required, and, secondly, engineering skill. The special materials are in the country at the present time, I am given to understand. It may be scattered; it may not be very accessible, but it is there in such a way that, if the problem were faced up to in the spirit that is necessary, an emergency Order would provide, I understand, all the necessary special metal that is necessary to build such producer plants.

As far as engineering skill is concerned, we have motor firms and engineering firms in the City of Dublin and throughout the country where there are brains and equipment. You have such places as the Leinster Engineering Company, S. and T. Robinson, F.M. Summerfield, Lincoln and Nolan, the Austin Company, the firm of Watt, Thompsons of Carlow, Fords of Cork. I mention these, not invidiously in any way, but to show that firms of that particular type and standing exist. Some of them at the present moment are so idle that, I suppose, they are hardly able to keep their shutters painted. These firms are capable of building the plant with metal that is available.

There is plenty of raw wood in the country. Raw wood can be used as fuel for producer plants of this particular kind without being either burned or dried and, with the transport situation what it is, I suggest that it is the first problem the bureau should address itself to. I do not know why this tendency towards monopoly in transport is being pushed ahead so much.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is outside this Vote for the Scientific Research Bureau.

General Mulcahy

I do not want to go into it, Sir. I do want to say that there is ingenuity, imagination, business experience, energy, trained personnel, engineering equipment, idealism—all there—widely dispersed throughout the country and kept idle, while we consider the work of a research bureau dealing with emergency problems, a bureau which is energetic and active but which has its mind, apparently, spread over a large number of big and small problems none of which is in any way as urgent or as vital in the people's interests as is the transport problem.

I did feel, in University College the other night, that I was listening to a very fine description of a rather good and useful extension of the laboratory side of the university. I do not say that in any kind of disparaging way. Most useful work has been done in matters such as glycerine and other things, but the general atmosphere that was created by the description of the amount of work that was being done and the amount of progress that was being made caused me to feel that this was an excellent development in a kind of post-graduate way, extending the technical and scientific knowledge of people who had a university training, or bringing them up against the rough, big world and introducing them in a very sound way to the problems that had to be tackled. That was the impression I got. When I considered the question of transport, there was nothing that would detract in any way from that impression. If we are to get through this emergency, we will get through it only by the energy, ability, ingenuity and work of people in every part of the country.

I put this to the Taoiseach: how are we going to deal with the transport question in the light of the dangers that the Minister for Supplies and other Ministers suggest may come to us at any time if we do not get the firms that are there to make producer plants that will use raw material? The idea in connection with this bureau is that it is independent of the Civil Service, that it gets money as a kind of Grant-in-Aid; but I feel that in some way or another it is in the grip of the Civil Service, and is being very inefficiently directed by any direction that it gets from the Civil Service. I understand the position with regard to the board is that it has no mandate to think, that it has no power to direct its thoughts to any problem not put up to it through the Taoiseach. I take it that the problems that are put up to it through him are problems that come from the Department of Supplies, or from some other Department responsible for dealing with the emergency. I would appeal to the Taoiseach to open other doors than the doors of the Civil Service for suggestions as to what should be put to the board either as subject matter for its thought, for its agenda or for work on its part. People connected with the transport side of things who are being pushed aside either by the circumstances of the emergency or the policy of the Department of Supplies, with its monopolistic tendencies, are now idle with little to do but think of the vital things that affect the people as result of the transport situation. Surely, with their ability, they are the kind of people who could make suggestions.

I would ask the Taoiseach to tell us what exactly is the approach to this transport problem. If he is not in a position to do so, then I suggest he should get in touch with those who are connected with transport and with motor engineering in the city, and see what ideas are in their minds for a solution of the situation. It seems to me that the tendency to hand this work over to the railway company and to take it away from the people who are most alive and imaginative, and are perhaps best able to deal with it: to hand it over to a body that has not anything like their energy or their ability, is a wrong one. At the moment there are 1,200 cars fitted with gas-producer plants. Six hundred of these are commercial vehicles, and 600 of them belong to private persons. How many have the railway company?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is now going into the administration of the Department of Supplies.

General Mulcahy

I am talking of the problem that exists, and saying that we cannot feed Dublin in the emergency that is contemplated from time to time by the Minister for Supplies except we get producer plants built and added to some of the lorries that are lying up at the present time. I am saying that the main body to which the Government is looking to deal with the transport situation has, in fact, only four gas-producer plants on its lorries at the present time. We have something like 13,000 commercial vehicles lying up at the moment.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must see that any other problem affecting the State at the present time could be raised in a similar fashion, and would not be any more relevant. The Deputy may be right in suggesting that the Research Bureau should give more attention, possibly, to any particular matter. That advice may be obtained in a certain quarter without discussing that problem and its administration by the Minister responsible for it.

General Mulcahy

We are voting money for the Research Bureau to take the material we have and use it to get us through the emergency. As I have said, we have something like 13,000 commercial cars in the country. Thousands of these, I suppose, are lying up. At any rate, thousands of private cars are lying up. Anybody who knows anything about a car will know that even a new car, if it is left lying up for two years, will require a very considerable amount of expenditure on overhauling to make it usable as a car. You have all that material lying up. You also have the material from which you could make the necessary gas-producing equipment. You have the necessary metal in the country, and you have the necessary engineering skill. According to the statements that have been made, we are likely to be in the middle of this serious problem: that we cannot feed Dublin or give the necessary fuel to Dublin, and yet nothing that is being done by the Research Bureau has any bearing on the solution of that very serious problem.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is precisely the Chair's difficulty. If the problem is outside the work of the bureau, why discuss it now?

General Mulcahy

I take it that if we vote money for the bureau then it should be used by the board to pay attention to the most important and urgent work that is there to be done. Again, I suggest to the Taoiseach that the bureau seems to have no mandate to think. It ought to be allowed to think. If the Taoiseach still maintains the present position, that it will not do any work except what is suggested to it by him, I put it to him that he should look around and see whether he could not get some additional machinery, if necessary, to suggest to him the urgency of the transport problem as well as the thoughts and ideas that those connected with that industry have for the solution of it, because my submission is that the energy, the ability, the ingenuity and the materials are there for its solution.

Mr. Dillon

I want to put this to the Taoiseach. Suppose an industrialist or a merchant in this country finds himself in an industrial or mercantile dilemma can he refer that to this bureau and have the matter investigated without involving himself in an unascertained liability for fees? This is not a nation of great plutocratic concerns, and there may arise from time to time a variety of problems relating to substitution, or what has become known in the vernacular as ersatz, which the entrepreneurs wish to have investigated but cannot afford it. It has never been made clear that this research bureau is prepared to take over a problem of that kind and examine it exhaustively, and give to the entrepreneur the result of their research without charging any fee. I think that ought to be made manifest. I think that persons in difficulties ought to be encouraged to approach the Emergency Scientific Research Bureau and be made realise that, far from being regarded as a nuisance or extravagant, the bureau would appreciate their co-operation in propounding difficulties of this kind to it.

As the Taoiseach, no doubt, knows, there are a number of firms in England like Baker, Perkins and others who hold themselves out as being firms one branch of whose activity is to solve the insoluble. They want to be given some problem which has completely defeated the best skill of a firm's experts, so that they can propose a means of overcoming the problem, so that they can design the requisite machinery for meeting the problem and, of course, in exchange for that service, they expect a pretty formidable fee. That is the approach heretofore available to manufacturers and entrepreneurs in this country and Great Britain, and therefore that procedure is associated in our minds with pretty formidable expense. It will be necessary to make it very manifest that this Emergency Scientific Research Bureau in Éire is a public service, the skill of which is available gratis to any bona fide person who really stands in need.

The Taoiseach says that, so far, the activities of this bureau have been confined to the examination of such problems as he has referred to it. I want to suggest four problems that the Emergency Scientific Research Bureau ought to address their minds to. One is the provision of absolute alcohol for the laboratories and hospitals of this country. I am not going to go into all the technical details of the uses of absolute alcohol, but I do not think I will exaggerate when I say that scientific research generally in our universities and hospitals is materially obstructed for the want of this commodity at the present time. I understand it could be made available by the industrial alcohol factories, but there may be some problem of special refining which is at present creating a situation in which the laboratories and hospitals are unable to get supplies. It may be some administrative problem connected with the Revenue Commissioners, some problem relating to duties payable, but, whatever the problem is, I suggest that the Emergency Scientific Research Bureau should examine the matter and, whether it turns out to be an administrative problem or a scientific problem, they should be asked to report to the Taoiseach forthwith, so that steps may be taken to ensure that instead of putting the entire industrial alcohol output into ordinary commercial channels, part, at least, should be diverted to the laboratories and hospitals, where it would be of quite incalculable value at the present time.

The next point to which I will draw attention concerns a matter that must have arrested the attention of every rural Deputy. Blacksmiths throughout the country are at the pin of their collar, so to speak, for the wherewithal to heat iron in order that they may make horseshoes. There is no blacksmiths' coal in the country and there is no immediate likelihood of getting any. Fifty years ago the blacksmiths in and around Ballaghaderreen reddened most of their iron with charcoal. Their neighbours manufactured the charcoal from turf. That art seems to have completely died out in the country; nobody seems to know how to do that now. I suggest that the Emergency Scientific Research Bureau should address themselves to ascertaining how our grandfathers converted turf into charcoal suitable for reddening the iron in blacksmiths' forges. If they fail to produce as satisfactory a solution as our unsophisticated grandfathers evolved, then I would expect them to produce some other substitute for blacksmiths' coal.

This matter is very urgent because, with a steady decrease in transport facilities, more particularly motor traffic, the necessity for having horses to travel on the roads is very great. The Taoiseach may not be quite aware of the urgency of this problem because, so far, there has been only a slight outcry. He may not be aware that horses engaged on purely agricultural work, in fields and so forth, can do without shoes, and many farmers are to-day working them without shoes. But you cannot work horses on the roads without shoes and a great deal of traffic will have to go on the roads within the next six months, and a great deal of employment will depend upon those horses going on the roads.

Mr. Hughes

No person would like to work horses constantly on the land without shoes.

Mr. Dillon

But it can be done.

Mr. Hughes

Yes, for a while.

Mr. Dillon

It may not be desirable, but it can be done, and, so long as the thing can be done, you will not get too uproarious an outcry about the scarcity of shoes. But it cannot be done if you have to put horses on the roads; if you have to work them on the roads under heavy loads they must be shod. In North Mayo motor transport has been taken off the roads. I refer now to the motor transport available to lorry owners. The same thing is about to happen in other portions of the country. Any man living in a town in that area must now get his goods from the station in a horse-drawn vehicle. Every travelling shop in the area must change to a horse-drawn vehicle. Various other forms of transport that normally obtained in a country town must now go on to horses and carts. These horses cannot be kept on the roads if we cannot get the shoes with which to shoe them, and there is no use in providing iron if the blacksmiths cannot convert it into shoes.

I can see the urgency of this problem. When a blacksmith comes to me I do my best to provide him with slack from Arigna coal or from coal primarily supplied for industrial purposes. So long as slack of that character is available, the balcksmiths can get on, but with the steady diminution of supplies of coal, even for industrial purposes that source is drying up. But for the fact that I have some slack which I am able to give the blacksmiths in my area, they would not be able to continue. If we could evolve turf charcoal, that problem would be immediately solved. Even though there are extensive areas where turf is not available for so essential a matter as I have referred to, it would be quite easy to transport turf charcoal to the individual smiths, wherever they may be, so as to keep the horses on the roads.

We are all aware of the astonishing achievement of the Minister for Agriculture. He has done what Oliver Cromwell failed to do—he has wiped out the pig population of this country. I suggest the Emergency Scientific Research Bureau should be required to examine the food stuffs we are growing and see if they could not be converted into some easily transportable pig food. So far as I know, in other countries, notably Great Britain and Germany, surplus potatoes have been converted into a very easily handled product suitable for feeding pigs, and which can be kept in store much longer than the potatoes themselves can be kept. It seems to me to be an insane thing to let potatoes rot in pits rather than convert them, in these areas where there is a surplus, into an easily transportable pig food, so that it may be possible to maintain our bacon supplies.

This year I think we will be confronted with a very inadequate supply of potatoes, because a large proportion of the potato crop, perhaps 20 per cent., has proved a failure. Last year we had a very considerable surplus. If we had put our minds to the task of converting that surplus into a pig food which could be kept, we would have a huge surplus now to stretch out the supply which will be available to us in the coming year.

Surely these are the kinds of things that would provide full-time work for the Emergency Scientific Research Bureau, with this added inducement for submitting such problems to them, that research conducted along these lines might provide us with not only temporary expedients requisite to carry us through our present emergency, but discoveries that might stand to us for all time. I think it would be a good thing if we knew for all time that the potato problem of the Cooley area of County Louth was no longer a problem, and that, in the Cooley area, instead of converting surplus potatoes into motor spirit at 3/6 a gallon, they were converted into a pig food which would be economical, easily transportable and valuable, That would be a piece of scientific research which would be of value to this community for all time.

Another matter to which I think the Emergency Scientific Research Bureau might turn its attention is the question of providing some material from whatever resources we can scrape together in this country wherewith to tan leather. Does anybody realise what the situation in regard to boots is? I have not got delivery of a pair of boots for the last two months. The public are not going to feel that for the next six months, because I have very large stocks of boots, and so has every other boot retailer in the country, but do Deputies know that the boot manufacturers are unable to produce any boots at present because there is no leather and that there is no leather because there is no material wherewith to tan it?

Mr. Allen

That is not so.

Mr. Dillon

What is not so? Let the Deputy not look across the House at me and tell me there are materials. All I can tell the House is what boot manufacturers are telling me.

Mr. Hughes

The Portlaw factory is in operation.

Mr. Dillon

Fight it out between yourselves. My money is as good as any other man's money and the manufacturers will be as glad to sell me boots as anybody else. All I can tell you is that they will not sell me any boots and the reason they give me is that they have no leather to put into them. The reason they have no leather is that there are no tanning materials wherewith to tan it. Is that not so? Is there any boot factor in the House who knows anything about the problem? Deputy Allen is a very knowledgeable man but "divil a much" he knows about boots.

Mr. Allen

I live beside a tannery.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy would not know the difference between the leather which goes into the top and the leather which goes into the bottom. I think it is bottom leather they are short of. In any case, these are facts as reported to me. There is an acute shortage of leather which is holding up the boot factories for want of materials wherewith to tan the leather. I believe that is substantially true and I suggest to the Taoiseach that he should now institute inquiries as to whether that statement is true or false, and invite the bureau to examine the possibilities of getting tanning material out of whatever is growing in this country. I always understood that it was possible to tan boots with oak bark.

Mr. Allen

They are making tanning material out of oak bark.

Mr. Dillon

I always understood it was possible to do it. There is the situation as reported to me, and it may be that there are some other things required which one has to mix with the liquor of oak bark in order to make a suitable tanning medium, and these things are not available. If it is, we ought to turn our minds at once to trying to discover something which would act as a substitute.

However, as the Taoiseach will readily recognise, it is very difficult to state problems which he may probably refer to the Emergency Scientific Research Bureau in the House. The proper people to indicate the kind of problems that require investigation are the manufacturers and entrepreneurs who are themselves confronted with the problems that require solution. The Taoiseach will get that kind of information in plenty, if he publicises the fact that the services of the Emergency Scientific Research Bureau are free, gratis and for nothing. The moment an attempt is made to publicise that fact, the Department of Finance will intervene and say: “But there must be a fee of 2/6 and there must be an undertaking by the manufacturer even though it is a formality, that, if any exceptional expenditure has to be embarked upon by the bureau, for the investigation of this peculiar problem which cannot conceivably affect anybody else—it is contrary to Government policy to spend money on the individual property of any citizen—to recoup the Government for any expenditure which is determined to be of exclusive use to an individual citizen.” The moment that is done, not a single application will come forward, because the moment you sign an undertaking of that kind, you enter into a contingent liability, the end of which nobody can see, and nobody is going to take that risk.

My suggestion is that we ought to drive it home that whatever services are given, whatever research is embarked upon as a result of an inquiry addressed to the bureau by any bona fide person, there will be no expenses for the person making the inquiry. There is the way in which the Taoiseach will get the co-operation of which he stands in need. May I say this, that at this stage another kind of invitation ought to be issued. The attention of interested persons ought to be directed to the ancient Irish proverb: “Ní hé lá na gaoithe lá na scolb”—that they should look forward and should anticipate difficulties that may arise, that they should state their difficulties fully and set an approximate date at which they expect them to develop. It will then be for the Taoiseach to determine whether the contingency they envisage is too remote to refer to the bureau, or whether, in all the circumstances, it is better to have the problem investigated in good time, so that the solution will be available, if and when the scarcity arises.

There is no use in approaching the bureau and telling them: "An iudustrial and supply problem has arisen and we want a solution by next Monday week." Their answer will be: "We can count ourselves very fortunate if we can present you with a solution this day six months, and it is much more likely to take 12 months." Nor will the research be conducted in the correct atmosphere if it is almost always a question of great urgency. We should review the supply field and set these men to work now and we should make this clear to the existing personnel of this bureau, that they will not be stinted for money in the employment of young scientists to conduct the laboratory research which must be conducted if the work is to be properly done.

I am informed that nearly every scientific technician who qualifies in our universities is swept out of the country at once by most lucrative offers from Great Britain, who stands in urgent need of technicians. I am informed that if you want a higher science master for a school, never mind a technician for an industrial research bureau, it is quite impossible to get one because persons with qualifications which would enable them to become secondary school teachers in science, never mind a laboratory assistant in a bureau of this kind, can command fantastic salaries in Great Britain at present. There is no use in asking the bureau to get the services of competent scientists, to work under the direction of the personnel of the bureau, for £2 15s. 0d. per week, because you will not get them. Unless you are prepared to pay, and to pay well, for competent technical advice and competent research workers, all you will get is a collection of "yobs", and you might as well spend no money at all as to dole it out to fellows who are quite incompetent to do the work they are supposed to be doing.

The Taoiseach has a winsome way with him when dealing with his colleagues in the Government, and what he wants done he usually gets done. I suppose that that is part of the characteristics of a Pooh-Bah, and I often think that, in considering the question of qualifications of this kind, it might not be a bad thing to have a Pooh-Bah at the head of the Government. Therefore, I suggest to the Taoiseach that he should put on his battle-dress and inform the Department of Finance that he is going to spend that much money on this; that he thinks it necessary to spend that much money on this work, and will then present the bill for it and, if the Minister for Finance, Mr. Seán T.O Ceallaigh, thinks it is a matter purely for the Department of Finance——

The Taoiseach

Or for the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee?

Mr. Dillon

The Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, unfortunately, is hog-tied on this matter, because all he can do is to ask whether or not the Minister for Finance has sanctioned it. That is all I can do, as chairman of that committee, in matters of this particular kind. In other matters, the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee has a wide discretion, but I can assure the Taoiseach that if I had a discretion in connection with this particular work, it would be very liberally exercised. I know, of course, the Taoiseach's reputation in connection with such matters as this, and I cannot imagine his being afraid of using his discretion widely. Possibly I should be a little flattered if the Taoiseach were to adopt my suggestion. However, the Taoiseach knows that he has got to get good men for this work, and he must also know that if he wants to get good men he will have to pay them well, so that they will not be impeded or held up in the middle of important work while they are trying to prove to the Department of Finance that their work is necessary. Mind you, that is an immensely important thing. Scientific men, of the type who will man a bureau of this kind, are not qualified to conduct running battles with the experts of the Department of Finance, and if such a thing happens, these people will simply throw their hats at the job and say: "We do not know what this is all about and we cannot be bothered about arranging for the necessary certificates, and so on, as to how we are to spend this money."

I say that the money should be appropriated here, and that it should then be left to the members of the bureau to decide how it should be spent. I know that the Department of Finance will say that that would be trifling with public moneys—that they must have certificates, and so on—but I also know that there are certain circumstances in which that very necessary and very desirable ordinary practice should be definitely departed from, and one of these circumstances is in regard to this particular Estimate. After all, this refers to a body of men who have not got the Civil Service mind. I am not decrying the Civil Service mind. I know that, in connecnection with a great deal of the administration of this State, it is the civil servants who protect the interests of the ordinary tax-paying public, but I believe that here is a case where the powers of the Civil Service should be abrogated, and that whatever sum may be required should be left to the discretion of this bureau to be spent on their appropriate work, because, unless that is done, I believe that very important work may be held up and delayed, with very serious consequences for our people. I have made four suggestions with regard to this body, and I trust that the Taoiseach will see that every bona fide citizen of this State shall be given the benefits of these researches, free, gratis and for nothing.

Mr. Hughes

I have no doubt that this Scientific Research Bureau has proved to be a very useful institution during this emergency, and that it has justified fully the very considerable amount of money that has been expended on its activities. I feel sure that it has solved many problems arising from the emergency, and has found very useful substitutes for commodities and essential articles that cannot now be imported. While I agree absolutely with Deputy Mulcahy that all its time ought to be devoted to problems of the emergency, and that problems of the type referred to in the Taoiseach's statement, such as the possibility of producing gas from turf for post-war purposes, ought not to occupy the time of such a bureau, unless they have no emergency problem to tackle——

The Taoiseach

What one did the Deputy say it should not occupy its time with?

Mr. Hughes

The production of gas from turf for post-war purposes.

The Taoiseach

Would not that be a case of emergency so far as Dublin is concerned, or the various other gas works throughout the country?

Mr. Hughes

I understood him to say that it was for post-war purposes.

The Taoiseach

I did not quite say that.

Mr. Hughes

Well, if it is an emergency problem, I agree that it should be tackled now. Deputy Mulcahy referred to the transport problem, which, I think, is the major problem of the war. If there is to be a further curtailment of the petrol that is available to this country, I feel that it will have a paralysing effect, not only on distribution, but on production as well. We have been warned by the Minister for Supplies that that situation is likely to develop, and the Minister for Agriculture, a few nights ago, in a message over the radio, also warned us about that. I should like to point out to the Taoiseach that, if that is so, there is no possibility, in certain districts in this country, of carrying out the amount of cultivation that is now being done. I am referring to certain intensive tillage districts, where there is not enough horse power available, and these districts will be very seriously handicapped, if there is any further curtailment in petrol supplies, because there is intensive cultivation there and mechanised methods are largely used. If that situation is likely to develop, consideration ought to be given at the earliest possible moment to fitting producer-gas equipment to tractors to substitute for paraffin oil on the larger farms. I feel that this is a pressing problem and I am sure that the Taoiseach himself appreciates the urgency of the matter, if there is to be—as we are told is almost a certainty—a further curtailment of supplies.

Now, while I agree that that question of transport is the major problem for this country, there is another very serious problem, not only for the emergency but also from the point of view of post-war conditions, and that is the matter of artificial manures. I have already referred a question on the matter to the Taoiseach, but I think that, at the time, it was passed over rather lightly. The Taoiseach, on the 28th October last, I think, when addressing the Dublin Chamber of Commerce, made a passing reference to it, but it seemed to me that he was thinking in terms of post-war planning at the time. I believe, however, that it is a problem that should command the immediate attention of the Scientific Research Bureau. I am referring particularly to the question of the conversion of town waste and sewage. On the 26th May last, I addressed a question to the Taoiseach, and the question and answers will be found in Volume 87, No. 1, of the Official Debates.

Mr. Dillon

Is the Deputy referring to the manufacture of humus?

Mr. Hughes

Yes, finding a substitute for artificial manures. I asked the Taoiseach on that occasion whether any success had attended the work of the bureau in finding a substitute for imported artificial manures which are not now available, and the answer of the Taoiseach was that the Scientific Research Bureau had concluded, from an examination of the position in regard to the country's requirements of fertilisers, that

"the difficulties involved in securing the necessary plant would make it impossible during the emergency to manufacture within the country artificial manures on the scale required."

He went on to say:

"The bureau has recommended the increased production of native phosphate, the increased use of seaweed as manure, a more intensive search for natural deposits, the winning of which would help to relieve the situation; and these measures have been adopted. The bureau is aware of the Indore process for the manufacture of humus but has not regarded the possibilities of applying the process to Irish conditions as being worthy of special study by them. The essential feature of the Indore process, namely, the use of the urine and dung of farm animals in conjunction with waste materials in the production of humus, is based on principles already widely practised in this country in the making of compost and farmyard manure."

In that question, I referred to Sir Albert Howard's work on this whole matter. I might say at the start that, in my opinion, the most precious thing we have in this country, the greatest asset that this country possesses, is the fertility of the soil. It should be the concern of every individual in this State to ensure that that fertility is preserved, and in fact, improved, so that the productive capacity of the soil would, as a corollary to that, be improved. I feel that in recent years we have drawn substantially on that capital asset. Even before this emergency, in some of the intensive tillage districts there has been a diminution of that precious possession, which in fact does not really belong to our generation. We have the right to use it, but the fertility of this country belongs to posterity. While we have the right to use it, I feel that there is a responsibility on us to care for it as a precious possession, and that it should be our concern to try to hand it down in as good, and if anything, in a better condition than we got it.

With the scientific knowledge that is available to-day, the work of Sir George Stapleton and the experiments carried on at Aberystwyth, there is no doubt that, using those modern scientific methods of agriculture, a very substantial improvement can be effected in the quality and fertility of the soil. Sir Albert Howard is a man who has interested himself to a very great extent in the provision of humus, a man who was knighted for that work, and who has lectured in various places all over England. He first came up against the problem when he was charged with responsibility for looking after agriculture in India, and he discovered that there was humus sufficiency in the soil there because in that country they were using dung from domestic animals for fuel purposes.

Sir Albert Howard tackled that problem and carried out many experiments. As a result of those experiments, and experiments at a later period in Nairobi, he evolved a system of converting town waste and sewage into humus. The difficulty of converting sewage and sewage sludge into humus is the difficulty in generating fermentation, because Deputies will realise that it is a very cold substance. There is too much liquid there, and it is almost impossible to induce fermentation. While I agree with the reply that was given by the Scientific Research Bureau that Sir Albert Howard's method of conversion is based on well-known composting principles which have been adopted here for a number of years, and that in his earlier system he used farmyard manure to encourage fermentation, people who have experience of composting methods will appreciate that the moment you get fermentation started there is no difficulty after that. There is this difference: that he realised that it was necessary to control that fermentation. If you allowed fermentation to rise above a certain level you immediately had gas given off, and you lost nitrogen. His system controlled fermentation. There was a number of containers, the first of which was filled with town waste of all descriptions and a certain amount of spraying over by water was done with each layer, so that fermentation was encouraged, and when that developed to a certain temperature it was turned over to the next receptacle or container. In that way, heating was controlled; the solids were disintegrated and the liquids were dried out, and the article finally evolved itself into a very fine powder.

Mr. Dillon

Does the Deputy seriously take the view that the matter of humus sufficiency is an urgent problem in this country?

Mr. Hughes

I think Deputy Dillon fails to appreciate the condition of a great many acres of land in the Leinster counties, where there has been a system of intensive tillage, and where they were dependent on artificial manure to a very great extent. The fact that we have a complete absence of artificial manure to-day has intensified that problem.

Mr. Dillon

How does that affect humus?

Mr. Hughes

The Deputy will appreciate how the dust bowl was produced. Such a thing could not happen under our conditions, because our climate is too wet, but we could eventually produce a condition analogous to that here, in my opinion.

Mr. Dillon

Not for want of humus.

Mr. Hughes

Of course, it is for want of humus that you lose bacteria and fungus activity.

Mr. Dillon

There is no danger of it in this country.

Mr. Hughes

People who have studied this problem appreciate that there is a reduction in the fertility of our soil.

Mr. Dillon

I would not be worried about that in an emergency.

Mr. Hughes

The Deputy knows rural Ireland from the point of view of his own district. I am speaking from an entirely different angle, the point of view of the eastern counties; we have different methods and different outlook and far greater production. If we ask nature to produce abundantly, nature has to be paid for what she gives. If we are not repaying nature for what she is giving, someone is going to suffer.

Mr. Dillon

There is enough humus in the soil in the Province of Leinster.

Mr. Hughes

I do not think the Deputy ought to be too dogmatic about that. I know a little about it. I want to remind the Taoiseach that the scientific bureau points out that this cannot be done without the use of farmyard manure, and, if you cannot convert sewage sludge here without the use of farmyard manure, then obviously I do not think it is any use at all. Sir Albert Howard at a later stage found that it could be done, and in some of his lectures under the auspices of the Royal Society of Arts in England he is reported to have said:—

"The results of this Nairobi experiment are of unusual interest, because they indicate very clearly the solution of the manurial problem in all parts of the Occident: how a successful working compromise between the rival claims of inorganic and organic manures can be achieved. The first step is to obtain a steady supply of humus. This can be secured by converting all the organic residues which are now either running to waste or are hardly utilised at all. These are municipal wastes, crude sewage, sewage sludge and peat."

I stress the word "peat" for the Taoiseach, because he is very interested in peat.

Sir Albert Howard proceeds as follows:—

"The conversion of these materials into humus is a simple matter. The town wastes and peat, when sprayed with sewage sludge, will produce the conditions necessary for the first stages in humus manufacture. The limiting factor will be the oxygen supply. The chief practical problem will be how best to draw from the atmosphere the large quantities of oxygen needed by the fungi and bacteria. Simple diffusion will not suffice. I envisage the use of compressed air as the next big development in the application of the Indore process to urban areas. This compressed air would be needed to start and to maintain the intense oxidation which is involved in the first part of the process. Such speeding up of the conversion would have other advantages; the area of land required for the composting factory would be automatically reduced (an important consideration on the outskirts of large towns); the output would be increased. Once the air supply is arranged for, the mechanisation of the rest of the process involves nothing more than the adoption of well-known labour-saving devices, such as rotary mixers, conveyers, and so forth."

In another place in the lecture he says:—

"In pursuing their one-sided chase after quantity, the experiment station workers are not only misleading practice, but are unconsciously doing the greatest possible disservice to the true cause of agricultural research. They have failed to insist on the effective return to the soil of the waste products contributed by the plant, by the animal, and by the community. They have speeded up the wheel of life over one-half of its revolution without due thought of the other half. The steering is thus bound to be erratic; the sense of direction is certain to be lost."

In another place he says:—

"The study of quality; the determination of the factors which go to produce it or to prevent its development; the effect of high quality on the diseases of plants, of animals and of mankind, must be investigated."

He finishes up by saying:—

"With all this before our eyes, we as a nation are spending large sums every year on the study of the diseases of our live stock—such as tuberculosis and foot-and-mouth disease—in the vain hope that laboratory science will find a remedy for what common sense should prevent. The microscope and the methods of Pasteur and of his successors can never hope to achieve a permanent and effective cure of such diseases. The cause lies much deeper than anything which is likely to be ascertained in the laboratory. It is in all probability malnutrition following closely in the wake of long-continued mismanagement of the land. We must attack diseases like tuberculosis and foot-and-mouth disease at the source, see that our animals get grass and fodder worth eating, that the breed is kept robust, and that the hygiene is satisfactory. We must develop the splendid work which Professor Stapleton and his band of devoted assistants have done at Aberystwyth, and make our grasslands really efficient. We shall then introduce real quality into our milk, into our milk products, into our meat, and so lay one of the foundations of a sound system of preventive medicine."

There is a school of thought in England at the present time that believes that the quality of food that is produced from artificial manure is inferior and injurious to some extent to the animal that consumes it, and that in fact intensive use of artificial manure over a protracted period induces plant disease and fungus disease of various sorts that reacts on the health of the animal afterwards. Russell of Rothamsted carried out some experiments to try to discover if that is so.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Will the Deputy relate all this to the particular Vote that is before the House?

Mr. Hughes

I think it has a very definite bearing on the whole matter. It is a matter that I raised by Parliamentary Question some time ago, which was referred to the Scientific Research Bureau. They said that could not be done because of the use of farmyard manure. I am trying to convince the Taoiseach that that is wrong.

The Taoiseach

That is not the reply I gave.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This is outside the ability or potentialities of the Research Bureau.

Mr. Dillon

If what Deputy Hughes is saying is not relevant, I am blowed if I know what is relevant.

Mr. Hughes

I am in the same position.

Mr. Dillon

He is propounding a problem that the bureau should investigate and what else are we voting money for?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I would ask the Deputy to relate it to the Vote.

Mr. Hughes

I am indicating to the Taoiseach, who is responsible for the operation of the bureau, what has been done by scientists in other countries, with regard to the development or the solution of the problem of the conversion of the natural humus that is there and which is simply being wasted, a lot of it flowing down the Liffey and other rivers. When this was referred to the Taoiseach, he referred it to the scientific bureau. I got a very unsatisfactory answer at the time, and the Leas-Cheann Comhairle will appreciate that on a Parliamentary Question I could not develop my point as I am developing it now. The House is asked to vote a sum of money for this purpose, and I think this is the only opportunity that is available to me in this House to raise this whole matter and to go into it in detail. I submit, Sir, for that reason, that I am in order in discussing this matter.

Mr. Norton

Take full advantage of it now while you are at it.

Mr. Hughes

I think it is a very serious matter for the whole House. It is a very advanced idea and possibly some feel that it is a bit farfetched, but I am convinced it is nothing of the sort. Great Britain at the present time is examining a largescale scheme for the conversion of town waste and sewage.

Mr. Dillon

This argument, I take it, is addressed to the West Britons, not to the Gaels. The Taoiseach is a Gael and there is no use approaching him on these lines.

Mr. Hughes

I think that is an indication that the people who have given some years to the study of this problem have convinced the authorities on the other side that it is a matter well worthy of attention and examination and well worth spending large sums of money on. We have in this country valuable humus, valuable natural fertilisers. As I have already stated, there are people who believe that the natural way of fertilising plant life is the ideal way of doing it, and the medium through which you will get the best results and the only way by which you can eliminate plant and animal diseases. There is a very definite combination between plant and animal life, and if the plant life is inferior and diseased, it reacts on the health of the animal.

I was pointing out, Sir, when you questioned as to whether or not I was in order, that Sir John Russell of Rothamsted carried out experiments to see if there was anything in this contention that intensive use of artificial manure was injurious to the health of the plant and that that, in turn, affected the health of the animal. Over a series of experiments, he came to the conclusion that it did not in fact injure the health of the plant, but Sir Albert Howard pointed out that fresh seed was used each year. He contended that if he had used the seed of the same plot year after year, he would have got diseased plants as a result of the use of artificial manures. I do not want to elaborate too much on it. I merely want to say to the Taoiseach that I feel that this is a problem that must be tackled vigorously here, with all due respect for Deputy Dillon's opinion on the fertility of the soil.

Mr. Dillon

There is a very great shortage of potash, nitrogen and phosphates. That is a very different thing from humus deficiency. They are two different problems altogether.

Mr. Hughes

I am sure the Deputy will appreciate that you must have humus present in the soil if you are going to have plant life and that this is a medium of supplying nitrogen, phosphates and potash.

Mr. Dillon

One way of getting it is to put in a good crop of grass, plenty of which we have in the country.

Mr. Hughes

In the part of the country Deputy Dillon comes from you had not very much cultivation. The land there was allowed to remain in grass for many years. Obviously, there would be no humus problem there. But it is quite a different matter in those parts of the country where you have intensive cultivation carried out, and where the land is not allowed to remain in grass for more than one or two years. I would like to point out that in converting this sewage you can produce a complete manure. Very satisfactory results were obtained from the series of experiments carried out by Sir A. Howard. The analysis of the product in its final state is very high. The Taoiseach referred to the manufacture of agar from seaweed. He did not give us any analysis of it. Anything manufactured from seaweed should, I take it, have a high potash content. He gave us no information as to what was being done about the conversion of seaweed into potash for agricultural purposes.

The Taoiseach

I did not mention that. That is not the purpose of agar at all. Agar is used in bacteriological work where a gelatinising medium containing the minimum of nutrients is required. It is also used for pharmaceutical purposes, and in the textile industry.

Mr. Hughes

On this other matter, I would like to point out to the Taoiseach that a lot of the surplus straw we have in some parts of the country could be used as vegetable matter for conversion purposes.

The Taoiseach

Why not use it as litter, as at present?

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear!

Mr. Hughes

There are not enough animals in some districts and, consequently, you have surplus straw.

Mr. Dillon

Why not buy animals?

Mr. Hughes

I must ask the protection of the Chair.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Hughes is in possession.

Mr. Hughes

Where straw is ploughed into the land, or where manure is ploughed into the land where the straw is not completely broken down, the immediate effect is that it depresses the nitrogen in the soil. Bacteria acting on that straw uses up a good deal of the nitrogen present in the soil. There, again, Deputies will appreciate that it is essential that the straw should be completely broken down if you are to get good results. I would ask the Taoiseach to have the uses of peat and of straw examined.

The Taoiseach

I think that would be more a matter for the Department of Agriculture.

Mr. Hughes

Why is not the Department doing something about it?

The Taoiseach

The Department has all these things in mind. I referred this question of sludge to it myself. Personally, I was very interested in it, and read most of the material.

Mr. Norton

In connection with this Estimate, the Taoiseach rightly laid emphasis on the research work which is being undertaken by the Scientific Research Bureau in providing a substitute for imported fuel. I quite agree with the views expressed by other speakers that, as in the past we mainly relied on imported fuel, such as petrol, coal and engine oil, our position in the future is very likely to be serious if there is any further curtailment in the importation of the limited quantities of these commodities coming in. I think, therefore, that the Taoiseach should direct the attention of the bureau to the necessity of concentrating a large portion of its time on producing a type of fuel which may be used in gas producing plants. We may, for a long time after the war, have to rely on gas producer plants as a means of transport.

A situation may develop at any moment in which, if we have not available adequate supplies of gasproducing plants, the transportation system of the whole country may be so seriously dislocated that you may have actual want in some areas, due to our inability to transport foodstuffs to them. While the Taoiseach was speaking of the necessity for producing certain substitute fuels, I could not help thinking that we are neglecting possibilities which lie at our very door. Some time ago a company was established by legislation we passed here providing for the development of the Slievardagh coalfield. It was a highly desirable thing for the State to engage itself in that type of activity, but I am afraid the results so far have been rather disappointing. Apparently, every anticipated difficulty has been experienced, while a number of unanticipated ones have also made their appearance. In this country, in which so little coal is being mined, some effort, I suggest, ought to be made, even if mistakes occur in the process, to win for the people such coal as can be produced from our coal deposits. For a long time I have been trying to induce the Minister for Industry and Commerce to take over a colliery in Carlow known as the Rossmore colliery. According to the report of a former head of the Geological Survey, there are approximately 30,000,000 tons of anthracite coal there. That is his statement, not my assertion. I have been trying to induce the Minister for Industry and Commerce to get this new company at Slievardagh to go into the Leinster coalfield at Rossmore to prospect and develop the mine there.

The Taoiseach

What answer did the Minister give you?

Mr. Norton

The type of red tape one that Deputy Dillon referred to which appears to clog every effort that is made to get anything done in the matter.

The Taoiseach

What was that?

Mr. Norton

Let me try to develop the matter. I do not want to prevent the Taoiseach from getting his Estimate before 8 o'clock. There is a man there working the mine on extremely limited capital. He is producing, I think, approximately 1,000 tons of coal per month. His capital and machinery are not sufficient to develop the mine. Further efforts to get local people, with capital, to go into the thing have not been successful for one reason or another. It is not too easy to induce people to invest money in the development of coal mines in this country. I tried to get the Minister for Industry and Commerce to get the Slievardagh Company to take over this mine in Carlow and exploit it, with its resources technical and financial. The Minister's view is that this company was established for the purpose of developing Slievardagh and that it cannot dissipate its energies in the winning of coal elsewhere. Under pressure, the Slievardagh Company have now come into the Carlow coalfields and made some borings, possibly with a view to developing the mine, but the thing is being done in such an indolent and leisurely fashion that I am appalled at the valuable time that is being wasted in a period of emergency, and when coal is such a vital commodity for the carrying on of many of our essential industries. As a matter of fact, some of this coal which is being mined in Carlow is being sent to Donegal to keep mills going there, but the limited quantity available in Carlow does not help to satisfy anything but a fragment of the demand.

It seems to me that in present circumstances the State ought not to allow any punctilio to stand in the way of exploiting whatever coal resources we have. The Carlow coalfield is a case in point. If the State stepped in there and, by the formation of a Government controlled company, or by encouraging the Slievardagh Company, the Carlow deposits were taken over and worked, a very substantial contribution to our coal supplies could be made by that colliery. True, the coal is anthracite, but that type of coal is necessary for many of our industrial operations. If the Department does not move in the matter now, it seems to me that we will never see any exploitation of that coalfield. I cannot understand why, in circumstances in which we have no coal and in which there is evidence of the existence of coal at our very doors, steps are not being taken to ensure that we get the maximum quantity of coal which is capable of being mined.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is not this a matter for another Department?

Mr. Norton

Possibly it is, but a lot of the things which the bureau is dealing with are things which, in their diversified way, affect one Department or another. I do not propose to go into this matter any further. I merely direct the attention of the Taoiseach to the existence of this coal in Carlow in the hope that he may take with me the rather radical view that there is an urgent need for the development of this coalfield and in the hope that he may encourage his colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, to see that that development is not long delayed.

The Taoiseach

I would say he is more radical than either of us in these matters. There are a lot of things I would like to say in this connection, but I fear that time will prevent me doing so—at least to-night.

General Mulcahy

Might I suggest that, as additional time is being given to the motion on the Order Paper, if the Taoiseach wants to pass 8 o'clock when he is replying to the present debate, the House will not have any objection?

Mr. Norton

We are quite agreeable to that.

The Taoiseach

It may not be necessary for me to do so. I had the feeling that I would be able to deal only with some points. We all realise that this is a very important matter.

Mr. Norton

Private Deputies' business can be taken when the Taoiseach finishes.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The motion is one tabled by Labour Deputies.

Mr. Norton

We are quite satisfied to take it when the Taoiseach finishes.

General Mulcahy

If the Taoiseach only wishes to make some opening remarks and continue on another occasion——

The Taoiseach

If I could possibly do it, I should like to finish to-night.

Mr. Norton

We will not ration the Taoiseach in the matter of time.

The Taoiseach

I should not like to touch on a subject and then have to leave it there until another occasion. I am anxious to finish this to-night, if that is at all possible. I appreciate very much the attitude of the House towards the bureau. It is what I would expect, because the bureau was set up with the approval of every Party. I think everybody appreciates the good work that it has been doing and that it can do for us in this emergency. It was apparent from some speakers that they were under certain misapprehensions. I would like to say to Deputy Mulcahy, with reference to the lecture which he listened to in University College, that that was not a substitute for a discussion in the Dáil. That was an explanation to a chemical society. It was purely an academic matter, dealing with technical points. It was interesting to everybody, I will admit. It was a lecture which was intended, I think, for a rather wide audience, but at the same time it was primarily directed to a scientific society.

General Mulcahy

I understand, perfectly.

The Taoiseach

It was narrowed down to that, and it would give the impression, perhaps, to those who simply approached it from that point of view, that here was going on a good deal of scientific work which was likely to give valuable results in the training of scientists—likely to give them a very practical approach and to take them away from the too academic side of their work. Research students are much more interested in the things they can see the immediate application of. You will get more effective results from research work of that kind than you will from the purely academic side.

It would be a mistake to think that that lecture was an indication of the attitude of mind of the bureau in relation to the present crisis. No persons are more fully aware than its members that the bureau was established for the emergency. There would be no point in establishing the bureau for any other purpose. Already we had an organisation which, with modification. could do the work of the type Deputy Mulcahy seemed to think for the moment they were engaged on as a result of listening to the lecture. The fact is that the bureau was established purely for emergency research purposes. The problems they are interested in are the problems of the moment and, whilst their research is connected with these problems, they may meet with certain aspects and they may say that these are things that can be developed at a later stage. They realise that time is the essence of their work and they may have to develop a second or third-rate process for a particular type of work in order to have due regard to the time element. Their whole work is intended to deal with problems arising from the emergency. One Deputy seemed to suggest that somehow they were fettered, that everything they did had to be submitted to the Department of Finance and that there was going to be a wrangle between the bureau and the Department with regard to a particular project. That is not so. The device of the Grant-in-Aid was chosen in order to give them a considerable amount of freedom. Their proposals come to me for approval. Issues from the Grant-in-Aid are made by the Department of Finance on my recommendation. So far we have got along very well together. I appreciate the peculiarity of their type of work. I am anxious to discharge my duties properly. It is not right to think that they are being hampered in any particular way from the point of view of any special Departmental control. There is some control necessary in looking after public funds, but so far there has not been any difficulty. Whatever they wanted in reason, they have got.

I do not know why it is that in all these discussions we are tending more and more to find fault with the Civil Service, to suggest there is red tape and all the rest in order to hold things up. There are certain necessary checks which everybody will appreciate. These checks have to be very carefully exercised in a time of emergency, lest the checks which are intended for efficiency and to save public money should hold the things up. I think all the Departments of State realise the extent to which the efforts to meet the needs of the emergency might be frustrated by having these checks carried to an unjustifiable extent, and I think it is true generally that the needs of the emergency dominate the method of administration, and, in regard to the bureau, I have had no complaints on that score.

I agree with all the Deputies who have spoken that there is a certain priority in relation to these problems. A whole lot of problems have arisen as a result of the emergency and there is a natural priority amongst them, and undoubtedly it is desirable that the more important problems, the larger problems, should be those to which greatest attention should be paid. One of the first problems we asked the bureau to help us with was the problem of fuel for heating purposes and for power, for transport purposes. They naturally looked around to see what were our sources of fuel. The larger sources we have are our bogs, and the natural place to look for material to meet our present deficiencies would be the peat from our bogs, for heating purposes, even for gas; and especially for charcoal for transport, if we could make it satisfactorily.

In that connection I should like to say that Deputy Mulcahy is wrong when he says that the bureau has no mandate to think for itself. That is not so. If he will look up the terms of reference of the bureau, he will see that they are (1) to give technical advice to the Government on such special problems relating to industrial processes and the use of substitute materials as may be referred to them— in other words, the initiative should come from the Government; (2) to advise the Government generally on the use of native and other materials to meet deficiencies caused by the restriction of imported raw materials and commodities—that is, giving them a free hand; they were to give on their own initiative such advice to the Government as they thought desirable in connection with the obvious deficiencies, and they have done that; and (3) to direct and conduct special researches and inquiries connected with the above. That is, they were given a free hand both to give advice on problems referred to them by the Government and to start investigations on their own account.

One of the first things they did was to get in touch with firms which were known by the Department of Supplies to be in need of help. We did not ask for a list, but I am sure they have been in touch with hundreds of firms, helping them with their particular difficulties, first, giving advice, which they give free, and then, if the particular problems put by the firms are of a character which could be examined from the point of view of the public interest, if they are the larger emergency problems, and if the problems suggested are of such a character that they would warrant investigation, they pursue these investigations themselves. The firms in question are given the results and they are not charged anything. If, on the other hand, the investigations are of such a character that they benefit a firm alone and do not come into the class of what might be called general public utility or public interest investigations, now and again they charge certain small fees; but the House can see how small the amount of fees is when I recall that I mentioned in my opening statement that they represented about £900 in an expenditure of about £24,000 for the year, so that there is no barrier against firms which have difficulties in regard to matters of public interest sending in their problems. Even where they are more of a private character—matters which are really matters of private profit, the charges are really only a contribution to the total cost.

Of course we could not expect the bureau to solve everybody's problems for them. They must have discretion in the selection of the things they are to do, and, while we invite all concerned who have problems which are associated immediately with the present emergency, and the solution of which would benefit the community as a whole, to send along their problems and get the advice of the bureau, we do not want everybody who has some idea in his head that something might be useful to himself or to the community to send it along because the whole time of the bureau might very well be taken up with an examination of what these problems are. Their correspondence, I think, would take all their time.

I tell the House that in order that Deputies may realise that the bureau is working really autonomously, in touch with the various concerns and busying itself with the problems of the moment. If a large number of Deputies had spoken on this matter, I am sure they would all have brought up one type of problem or another for which they thought the bureau should try to get the solution. There is, of course, the big problem of fuel, but there are smaller problems which affect materials of a very wide class. It is the old question in a time of emergency of "for want of a nail, the shoe was lost; for want of a shoe, the horse was lost," and so on. Very often it is a relatively small thing which will hold up a big industry. We may have a lot of the materials, but one particular vital material may be absent, and the whole process has to come to a stop on that account.

Deputy Dillon spoke about boots. I have not heard that there is a shortage of boots, but, if there is, I do not think it is due to a shortage of leather.

Mr. Brennan

It is due to a shortage of sprigs and brads.

The Taoiseach

That is what I was about to say. I have already referred to the nail being lost. It is this thing called grindery—I think that is the technical name—which caused the difficulty and not the question of tanning. In regard to tanning, the bureau as a matter of fact was called in at a very early stage and did give a certain amount of help. I have a note here which I shall read for the House. Following representations from the industry—that is, the tanning industry—investigations were undertaken to assist in the provision of certain supplies required for the tanning industry—sulphonated oils and sodium sulphide. Successful results were obtained and the results were conveyed to the industry. Considerable help was given by the bureau in discussions with the industry in regard to the provision of vegetable tanning materials from available resources. Now, that question of tanning was raised, and that was the answer to it. With regard to the larger question, upon which Deputy Mulcahy, very rightly, laid such stress, the importance of transport, the bureau, from the very start, has been at this problem and it has been the problem in which it was most engaged. Its biggest expenditure has been in connection with trying to get suitable fuel. It has been suggested by Deputy Mulcahy that we should use raw wood. I am not in a position to talk of the technical difficulties. I could find out for the Deputy what the technical difficulties are at the moment, but the information I have at present is that the possibilities of down-draft producers, of the type suitable for use with raw wood or raw turf, require special materials which are not thought to be immediately available.

General Mulcahy

They are available in the country, if they were collected.

The Taoiseach

I am only saying that that is the information from the bureau, and I do think that this problem has been so much before them that, if there is anything else, it has not come to their notice. It is quite possible that sometimes things are round about and you do not see them, as somebody has said, but I doubt very much that this possibility has escaped the notice of the bureau. They are certainly aware of the fact that there are special types of producers, but they think the materials are not immediately available. I have no personal knowledge of it. Perhaps the Deputy would suggest anything that he has in mind?

General Mulcahy

I should be perfectly satisfied if the Taoiseach would simply take a personal interest in inquiring into the possibilities.

The Taoiseach

I shall certainly do that.

General Mulcahy

I should say that there does not seem to be a way out except by using raw material. I understand that it is a matter of engineering work, to put the apparatus together, and that there is plenty of skill available for that purpose.

The Taoiseach

Yes. It says here that such producers require special materials which are not thought to be readily available at present. It says:—

"Such producers could not be immediately adopted on the scale required without further investigation. It is concluded that to convert a large number of vehicles quickly for use with producers it is better to concentrate on the cross-draft or up-draft types, of which the country has already considerable experience. Sufficient materials are available to manufacture quickly, enough producers for essential purposes. There may not be immediately in sight enough fuel to supply the number of producers required, but there is probably available more producer fuel than there are now producers to use that fuel. The question of more fuel is being examined."

These were the answers to questions that I asked. Of course, with regard to the types of fuel used, there is, first of all, anthracite, to the extent to which it is available. Then there is wood charcoal, and then peat charcoal, and the greater part of our investigations have been pursued with the hope that sufficient quantities of suitable fuel will be obtained from peat. However, with regard to raw wood and raw turf, as I have said, it does appear to have been before the minds of the bureau and they have been engaged in considering the possibilities of down-draft producers, the type suitable for use with raw wood and raw turf. They are examining the possibilities of that. However, as the Deputy has raised the matter I shall refer it specially to them and ask what is the position in that regard, and see if there is anything they would like to add to our information on the matter.

General Mulcahy also spoke about the general tendency towards monopolies in transport. I think he will admit that if you have a limited supply of fuel available, it is easier to deal with one or two large concerns than to deal with a host of individuals where there would be no co-ordination. On the other hand, as far as I know, there is no stop on anybody who has got ideas—and I am sure that people who badly need transport must have some ideas on the matter—and if any firm is prepared to go ahead on its own and is prepared to produce any type of producer plant that would be satisfactory, they would have a very good market for it. If they want help or advice from the bureau, well and good, they will get that help and advice, and if the thing should prove to be of sufficient interest for the State to take it up, I can assure the Deputy that any proposition of that type, which is worth developing from the point of view of the State's interest at the moment, would have the sympathetic consideration of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, and we would certainly give every help. So there is every inducement for such people to go ahead, and if there are people, engineers and others, who have any ideas on the matter, we should be very glad to have their ideas. If the Deputy is talking about the question of the tendency to have large transport companies, more or less like the railways and so on, that is a general question of transport, but if at the present time he wants to see that the brains and abilities in any engineering plant should be availed of for the manufacture of producers, then I say that if there is any good idea, there will be no hesitation on our part to help such people.

General Mulcahy

They might want State assistance in collecting the materials, such as the metal that is required.

The Taoiseach

Just like the paper mills' salvage?

General Mulcahy

Yes.

The Taoiseach

Well, I have not heard any proposition of that kind, but if such a proposition comes forward it will certainly be sympathetically examined, that is from the point of view of people who would be very glad to get any solution of these problems at the present time, and we shall welcome such ideas from any section of the community, engineers or others, who think that they themselves may not be able to exploit them but think it would be worth while to exploit them, and in the national interest to do so. In such a case, the Government will approach the matter sympathetically, but the trouble is that very many of these suggestious or ideas, when examined home, are not by any means as sound or promising as they appear at first sight. I think I have dealt with the various points made by the Deputy. Perhaps he will remind me if there is anything else in his remarks that he wants me to touch upon.

General Mulcahy

No, the main thing was the really serious problem of transport. That is the most important problem.

The Taoiseach

I agree.

General Mulcahy

And that that is one way out.

The Taoiseach

Well, that is a question, but I think it is better to concentrate on the other types because there would be difficulty in getting materials for the type using raw wood and raw turf.

General Mulcahy

The next move in the matter, I think, is with the Taoiseach. He should raise the matter himself with the bureau, to find whether that is so or not.

The Taoiseach

I will take that matter up. I think I have settled, too, that question about their mandate to think. Deputy Dillon asked about absolute alcohol. One of the things I have been anxious about, besides the question of fuel, is the provision of certain essential medical supplies. Deputy Dillon seemed to suggest that there was some lack of absolute alcohol. I have not heard of it in any case. It may be true, but I do not think that the bureau would have a great deal of difficulty in indicating the process that would be necessary for that. I do not know what would have to be done, but I am sure the alcohol factories could turn it out in any quantities we want—at least up to their capacity. The Deputy also raised on other occasions here the question of smiths' coal. Turf charcoal, no doubt, would be excellent if we had it in sufficient quantities. In regard to the question of turf charcoal, Deputy Mulcahy may think, because the plant is set up in Turraun to turn out, I suppose, about three or four tons a day or roughly 10,000 tons a year, that that is the limit. That is not so. I think the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance would tell him of all sorts of experiments which have been tried with kilns, pits and so on.

Deputy Dillon spoke about the older methods. He said our ancestors dealt with iron, heating up iron and fabricating it with charcoal of some kind, or some type of fuel, and that we should try that out. I do not know whether turf charcoal was tried. I suppose coal or wood charcoal is the usual method. The older methods of producing charcoal—they are trying them partly in steel kilns and in pits also—are being examined with a view to trying to produce large quantities as quickly as possible. Deputy Dillon also went on to the question of the preservation of potatoes, so that they could be used for pig food. We had that question examined very early. It was found to be fairly expensive on fuel. The question of having the potatoes in chipped form or flour was examined. It did not appear at the time that there was sufficient to be gained. It did not appear that the difference between keeping the potatoes ordinarily during the period and preserving them in that form was sufficient to make it worth while to follow it up. I admit that if you had a very large surplus and wanted to carry it on from year to year it might be worth while, but I very much doubt whether it would be an economic matter having regard to the price at which they could be made available for those who are engaged on pig raising. However, I have not examined the matter in detail, and we can look into it to see whether, from that point of view, it would be economic.

Deputy Hughes raised the question of manures. I want to tell him, too, that that matter was brought to my attention at an early stage. I got most of the material which he read here to-night, and I read it myself. In fact, earlier than that the matter had been examined by one of the Departments from the point of view of seeing whether it was economic. At first sight it appears to anybody that it is a pity, seeing how important fertilisers are, to see manures apparently going to waste. The difficulty is that it is going in the form of sludge, and by the time it is made available it would be so expensive to cart it that it would be uneconomic, except for allotments and so on around the centres of population where it was being produced, that is in the neighbourhood of cities and towns.

I do believe that the whole question should be examined from the point of view of seeing whether, keeping questions of hygiene properly in mind, we could find some method of sanitation by which it could be saved at an earlier stage, or something of that sort. At the present time, if we were just to use the sludge, the scientists tell us that the ultimate product would be of little value and, by the time it was made available for use on the farm, would be too expensive. I do not like digressing on a Vote like this, but from the agricultural point of view I have discussed the matter with representatives of the Department, with the Minister for Agriculture and others, and the general feeling is that a great deal of waste of manure is taking place on the farms themselves, and that if that waste were avoided you would probably have a greater increase in fertilising material for the land than you would get by any other method at the present time. By eliminating that waste we would probably get the manures we want more quickly and certainly very much more cheaply.

Mr. Brennan

There is a certain amount of waste, but it does not amount to a lot.

The Taoiseach

In my younger days in the country I certainly saw a great deal of that waste myself. Whether or not things have improved since then I do not know.

Mr. Brennan

Have not other countries already solved this matter of dealing with sludge? They may not have solved it exactly, but they have achieved something in that direction. Possibly we are too scientific. If we were not so scientific we might have solved the question before now.

The Taoiseach

It is a question of cost. It is a question of the price you can get per load. What you pay for it would go up according to your need of it; if your need were very great you might pay a great deal more. I have referred the matter not once but a number of times to the Department of Agriculture, and they are having it looked into, but I would say that at the moment it is more a question for the Department of Agriculture than for the bureau.

Mr. Brennan

I agree.

The Taoiseach

If the Department of Agriculture wants any help from the bureau in that matter, that help will be forthcoming. That, I think, is all it is fair to ask of the bureau. It is a problem immediately for the Department of Agriculture. One of our difficulties at the present moment is that a number of things which could be done in ordinary peace times cannot be done now because plant is very difficult and expensive to get. However, I think all that Deputies can do here is to impress upon me, upon the Government or the Minister for Agriculture, that this matter should be examined.

There is no reason in the world why we should be opposed to anything of this kind. As a matter of fact, in all these things it is often surprising why Deputies do not realise that it is altogether to the interests of the Government to take any suggestions that are made from any side of the House and to work them, if they are workable. The only reason why the Government will not at any particular time take suggestions is because it has some good reason for seeing that the thing would not work. For example—I am giving an absurd figure, to illustrate what I mean—supposing we calculated that the price at which this manure would be available would be £100 a ton, and that it was only equivalent to some good farmyard manure, it is quite obvious that there would be no use in going ahead with a project of that kind. Or, if we heard that it was as bulky as farmyard manure and that we had to transport it, in the present difficulties of transportation, from Dublin, down the country, at the cost which, at the present time, would have to be paid for transport, and that we were to tell you: "Very well, no farmer would buy it; it would not pay him to buy it," it is quite obvious that is sufficient answer, at the moment anyhow, to those who would say: "Go out and develop this particular project." But I would like again to say to the House that, apart altogether from its duty in the public interest, even from the narrowest view you take of it, it is to the interests of the Government to take any suggestions from any side or from anywhere they get them.

Therefore, the House can always be assured that there is an open mind to any suggestion. The only thing is that when the suggestion is examined home in a way that the Deputy who makes the suggestion may not be able to examine it, and you come to the point at which you are satisfied that the possibilities which appeared to be in it were not in it and that it was going to be too costly, then we say we cannot do it. There may be a difference of opinion at certain stages as to whether a thing, even though it was costly, was worth it for some higher interest; it may be, for instance, that for a social interest of one kind or another it may be regarded as worth while to face the cost. There may be a difference of opinion on that point. Well and good, that is legitimate and understandable. But the one thing I do want to make the House realise is that any suggestions as to how the difficulties of the present emergency could be met, naturally, would be received by the Government with an open mind. I think the same thing is true of the Government officials—of the State servants everywhere.

I think I have gone over all the things I wanted to deal with. Deputy Norton spoke about the use of materials, such as coal, and he spoke about Carlow. I am not able to speak about the position at present in Carlow but, from Deputy Norton, I understood that the Slievardagh Company have made borings in that area. I feel pretty certain that if these borings indicate that there are valuable seams there, that it is worth while, and that they are able to get whatever equipment may be necessary, it will be done. Personally, I am always a bit dissatisfied whenever there are delays. One naturally likes to hurry things up and to get them done quickly, but when you examine the reasons for the delay one often has to admit that it was no fault of the people who were at work; difficulties arose that had to be overcome.

I do not think the wool has been pulled over my eyes, but in a lot of these things when I have been impatient at the start I find, when I examine them and ask for the reasons, I have to say that I would be unreasonable if I did not accept the explanations. They seemed to me to be reasonable. There were good grounds why the delay was incurred and how it became necessary, and so on. When we want solutions of things, we are all naturally impatient about delay but if we are not to take up the position of being quite unreasonable, when explanations of the delay are given, we have to accept them. I am quite certain that if there have been any delays in this matter that appear unreasonable, if they are examined home, we will find there are reasonable explanations for them.

I think I have met the points that have been raised. I am very glad to see the spirit in which the House has approached this Estimate. I am sure the members of the bureau will work with all the greater energy when they find that their work is appreciated and they will realise that any suggestions that have been made here this evening are made to them by people who have a public responsibility to try to do the best for the community in the present circumstances.

Vote put and agreed to.

Vote reported and agreed to.