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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 9 Dec 1942

Vol. 89 No. 1

Committee on Finance. - Employment for Adults—Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—
So as to give effect without further delay to the undertakings in Article 45 of the Constitution that the State shall direct its policy towards securing that the citizens may, through their occupations, find the means of making reasonable provision for their domestic needs, Dáil Eireann requests the Government immediately to formulate proposals for absorbing into useful employment at adequate remuneration all adult citizens able and willing to follow useful occupations.

When I moved the adjournment of the debate on the last occasion that this motion was under discussion I asked if there was any hope that the policy of despair and inaction, manifest at the present time in widespread unemployment and in mass emigration from this country, would be changed. I have before me a statement that appeared in a journal published in the city in 1929. It is portion of an article contributed by Mr. Eamon de Valera to a journal called Honesty. It deals with this question in a very striking and illuminating manner. I would like to quote one paragraph from this statement before I conclude:—

"I have repeatedly said and I wish to reiterate here that I believe it to be the duty of a modern State to provide either work or subsistence for every citizen. This, in my judgement, is not merely a dictate of charity but an imperative requirement of justice. Men have a natural right to live of which no law or social convention can justly deprive them. Normally, this right is exercised through labour, but when, as is true in Ireland to-day, the economic and social system maintained by the community deprives individuals of the power to exercise their rights in the normal way, the community is under an obligation of justice to provide the victims of this system with the means of subsistence."

Would the Deputy please state from what he is quoting?

A journal called Honesty. The issue is January 19th, 1929.

I thought it was from Dáil Debates.

I do not think a more eloquent condemnation of the system and conditions that prevail at the present time could be found than is found in that passage because, if it was true then, it is quite obviously true now. The statement was then made by somebody who was not in the position that the Head of the Government is in now. I recall that statement and I consider it is the most striking indictment of the policy that the Government has pursued that I could find.

There is nothing further I desire to say except again to express my own condemnation of this system of inaction —despairing inaction, the Taoiseach called it on the same occasion—that we see in the country to-day, and ask that now, in this very important and critical juncture of the history of the country, we should have some appreciation of the position, some pronouncement here that that position is going to be met by a forward and progressive policy in the near future. Whether this motion achieves that purpose or not, there should be no mistake about it that the masses of our people are thinking in terms of that kind, and will not be slow to express their condemnation of any continuation of the inaction that has gone on in this country over the last 20 years. I leave the matter there. I do not intend to say anything further, in view of the fact that the time allowed for the discussion of the motion is limited. I feel that I ought to conclude on that note.

This motion is framed to read that—

"The State should direct its policy towards securing that the citizens may, through their occupations, find the means of making reasonable provision for their domestic needs, and Dáil Eireann requests the Government immediately to formulate proposals for absorbing into useful employment at adequate remuneration all adult citizens able and willing to follow useful occupations."

The Labour Party have so far addressed themselves, so far as I can see, to the aspect of that resolution which would place upon the Government the obligation to provide regular employment at fair rates of wages, under reasonable conditions acceptable to free men, permanently. I want to say quite deliberately that I believe everybody in the House subscribes to the desirability of doing that. I do not know how to do it. I do not know how to get for every member of a civilised Christian community 48 hours' work in the week, at a fair rate of pay under reasonable conditions acceptable to free and honourable men, without periods of unemployment. I do not for a moment wish anybody to imagine that I am happy about that, or that I think that is a normal state of affairs that ought for ever to subsist.

My difficulty is that I cannot find anybody who will tell me how to avoid it. I say, and I think most Deputies in this House will say that if anybody will produce a plan which will get for everybody 48 hours' work a week, at a fair rate of wages and on conditions which are acceptable to free Christian men and women, I do not care what cost or what adjustment it involves in the social conditions of our people, I am prepared to go out and campaign for it. I agree with Deputy Murphy that it is the supreme desideratum in the temporal sphere. But my difficulty is to find somebody to tell me how to do it, and I am still waiting. I have read libraries of books on the subject. I have read the publications of the International Labour Office, I have read the works of Keynes and of other writers, and yet I can find nobody who will tell me how free men, living freely together, can produce this eminently desirable ideal. I have heard with consternation some uninformed fellow-citizens compare the Russian, and even the German, system favourably with our system. I grant that, at least, in those countries they have no unemployed. We can have that here to-morrow. By establishing the Nazi system, we can employ every man or woman not 48 hours a week but 72 hours a week, and we can make him do that under the penalty of death, or worse than death, at whatever wage we want to impose on him. Nero and Caligula were able to do that, they divided the Roman nation into Patricians and slaves. The slaves worked when they were told to work and under whatever conditions they were told to work under, and if they did not willingly accept that they died.

I agree that the resources of the State should be used in times when free enterprise and normal business are unable to employ all the persons who are ready and willing to work. State enterprise should be stimulated to provide labour for those people. I agree that, during periods when there is an abundance of employment in ordinary commercial pursuits, the Government should be busy formulating schemes, which shall be laid to one side, in order that all the preliminary work will have been completed when the time of unemployment and crisis comes and when work on those schemes can be started without delay.

I think it is true to say that our Government has fallen short of its duty in that matter. I think it has not prepared its schemes far enough ahead with the result that we have had intense and acute unemployment in our midst. Our Government has some ephemeral kind of idea of what it would wish to do in order to provide employment for everybody, but when it comes down to the task of putting those men to work, it finds that the preliminary work in connection with engineering, the acquisition of property and the investigation of title, which may be very necessary before big schemes can be put under way has yet to be done. It may take nine or 12 months to get this preliminary work completed before you can get men employed.

Bearing all this in mind, Deputies ought not to forget that public works will very often not employ the most deserving among the unemployed. Take the case of a man who has held a responsible clerical position in a mercantile firm, earning £6 or £7 a week. He has his children at school, he has a nice little home and is accustomed to a certain standard of living. That man loses his job. He has put something by for the rainy day, but when he comes to the end of his resources he is an unemployed man. What good is there in telling him that you will provide him with an agricultural wage if he goes out as a labourer on a drainage scheme in the County Westmeath? It is only adding insult to injury. The man would go with a heart and a half if only he could handle a shovel or a pick, but he knows perfectly well that if he attempted it he would certainly collapse, and would then leave himself open to the jeer and the gibe that he did not want to do work. If you are a shop assistant you cannot change yourself into a manual labourer overnight. Neither can you change a clerical worker of 50 years into a ditch digger in competition with young men of 22 and 23 who have been brought up to that extremely technical craft. Anybody who has not swung a pick cannot realise how utterly exhausting that operation can be if you do not know how to swing it. People in sedentary occupations marvel at the way in which labourers in the field are able to keep going for eight hours a day and more, because they do not realise the skill of those manual labourers.

If they were to undertake that work, not having the necessary skill, it would kill them in an hour. People not trained to manual labour, working beside a country man in the fields, find that they very soon have to lay down the instruments they are using because of sore wrists or a breaking back, the reason being that they had been using the instruments unskilfully. The trained labourer is able to use the instruments without bringing on himself any pains or aches because of his superior skill. The answer of the Labour Party to that is that their scheme of public works is going to absorb most of the unemployed. I do not know how to meet that problem, not because I do not want to meet it.

I agree with Deputy Murphy that it should be a first charge on our national income that all those men who are willing and anxious to work should be given work. I think it is right to fix the criterion that if they will not work they are deserving of very little sympathy, but it is tragic and cruel to say that the criterion should be fixed by offering a clerk the position of a ditch digger, or, vice versa, offering to the ditch digger the occupation of a clerk and, because the ditch digger cannot fill up his ledger with neat figures and keep his page immaculate and unstained, he is to be stigmatised as a man who does not want to work, or because the clerk is obliged to drop his tools after an hour, as physical exhaustion prevents him carrying on, he is to be stigmatised as too lazy to work. If that stigma is not to be attached to them, how are we to find for them the work they are able to do?

Every man, no matter how simple his task, is in some degree a skilled worker and is entitled, I think, to ask this: that either he should be given work analogous to the skill which he has acquired, or that he will be maintained while he is in training for alternative work of a kind which is available. In Great Britain that is being done, but there you have a vast industrial population. There it may be said, looking at it from the cold-blooded economic point of view, that it is economically worth while to set up such training centres in the large industrial areas so that individuals may be fitted for some calling. Is that type of thing practical in our community? If it is let us do it, but I wonder is it?

I confess, with regard to this problem of unemployment, that I know of no effective means of remedying it except by seeking as best we can by political action to make the prosperity, the productivity and the capacity to produce wealth of our people as great as we can make it. That is the most effective contribution to the abolition of unemployment that we could make. I believe that the only way we can make an effective contribution in the present state of our community to the abolition of unemployment is to ensure that every acre of our land will be as productive and as wealth-producing for its owner as it is possible to make it. I repeat what I have stated a thousand times in this country, that the only natural resource of consequence that we have is 12,000,000 acres of arable land. If we can make the produce of the 12,000,000 acres profitable, then all the community will prosper and the problem of unemployment will reach its lowest degree of gravity. If the 12,000,000 acres are rendered unprofitable, I know of no device, financial or otherwise, which will rescue the bulk of the wage-earners from the unemployment that must ensue on the principal natural resource ceasing to produce true wealth.

The kind of thing that I think makes unemployment inevitable is when our own Government goes to the owners of land and says to them: "You must deliver the barley that you sweated to grow to Arthur Guinness, Son and Company, for 35/-," while that brewery is paying 70/- in Great Britain. The kind of thing that produces unemployment is when the farmers who produce grain on the land are obliged to sell it to the principal consumer in this country for 30/-, as they did last year, while that consumer was paying 70/- in Great Britain. The result is that the wealth from barley-growing, which should have gone into the pockets of our farmers and enabled them to purchase the things the making of which would have provided employment for large numbers of our people, went to the shareholders of Messrs. Guinness, whose shares appreciated from 80/- to 115/-. Why? Because they had in their coffers £1,000,000—money that rightly belonged to the farmers of this country. Speculators on the stock exchanges of the world were prepared to pay 115/- for shares that were selling for 80/- six months ago. They were paying that extra 35/- a share in order to have their portion of the plunder that was extracted from the Irish farmers. By paying it they got their share of the purchasing power which should have been in the hands of Irish farmers and which would have meant considerable employment among our people.

The second contributing factor to unemployment is the curse of tariffs, that loathsome curse which has descended upon mankind through the damnable doctrine of economic self-sufficiency. The blocking of the channels of free trade between nation and nation has resulted in a diabolical competition between communities to starve one another out, and that progress of starvation has been demonstrated to us in our community in the persons of the unemployed. The cursed and damnable doctrine of economic self-sufficiency has produced poverty and unemployment in Ireland, just as the same cursed doctrine produced 3,000,000 of unemployed in England, and 10,000,000 of unemployed in America.

In the midst of abundance.

An abundance which was denied to humanity. The abundance was there, but our people were forbidden to get any of it by the tariffs that were imposed by the Fianna Fáil Government, with the collaboration of the Irish Labour Party. The cursed doctrine of economic self-sufficiency is one of the most potent sources of unemployment and pauperism in this country, just as it is in every other country that has adopted it. There was abundance clamouring at our gates to come in—materials which our people could have enjoyed, or could have used their skilled labour upon to export to others in a finished condition—but we were prohibited from using them because of the tariffs and quotas imposed by the Fianna Fáil Government, with the collaboration and assistance of the Irish Labour Party.

Some of the unemployed men in this country were standing idle because the farmers had no money wherewith to buy the clothes and boots that they wanted to buy, and that they were prepared to pay the unemployed to make for them. Why did they not have the money? Because they would not be allowed to make a profit on the pigs they were rearing. The food they could have bought in and fed to pigs preparatory to exporting them to Great Britain was withheld from them, and they were constrained to pay increased prices for the raw materials of the pig industry, with the result that the production of pigs was made uneconomic; and the farmer who would have reared four pigs and earned on them sufficient to pay for a few pairs of boots, was denied the right to do so, and he could not get the boots. He had to put on wooden clogs, and the operatives who wanted and were quite willing to work, and had the skill to make the boots, had to remain idle. The people who created that situation are the Fianna Fáil Government and the Irish Labour Party who collaborated with them in order to make the production of the four pigs unprofitable. Is that true or false?

Quite true, fortunately.

Deputy Walsh says it is fortunately quite true.

Bring things in from the ends of the earth—that is your policy.

These operatives are the eggs to be broken in order to prepare the omelette of which Deputy Walsh apparently approves. Have the Deputies ever considered that?

Indeed we have.

Then when are they going to change? When are they going to open their eyes to the fact that so long as economic self-sufficiency curses this world, there will be dotted all over the world groups of men standing with hands extended, asking for work and denied the right to work, and, side by side, vast masses of people living in miserable poverty because there are withheld from them the goods they ought to be allowed to get by the tariffs imposed at the instance of vested interests who live on the blood of their fellow countrymen? I say that the tariff racketeers of this country are responsible for the deaths of many a labouring man's child who died of starvation.

In this country. I say that the tariff racketeers who rejoiced in the profits they were making out of tariffs and quotas slew those children as certainly as if they had gone in with poison and fed it to them in their food.

Where were they slain?

Here in Ireland.

The Deputy perhaps is unaware——

I never heard of it.

The Deputy probably has not. It is time he woke up. Does he deny that children died from malnutrition and poverty?

I have no reason to take the Deputy's word for it.

Does Deputy O'Rourke, who holds himself forth as a public representative, deny the existence of poverty and malnutrition in this country?

I do not, but I say——

I tell the Deputy where it came from. It came from the fact that the parents of these children would not be allowed to work, for there was no work for them to do. I tell him the reason there was no work for them to do was that the Deputy and his Party during the last ten years destroyed the earning capacity of the landholders of Ireland.

By denying them the opportunity of earning a profit on the land.

How did that come about?

If the Deputy does not know, it is time he learned. I have explained it to the Deputy.

The Deputy is altogether inconsistent.

I am not. He denied the opportunity to the landholders of this country to earn a profit on their land, with the result that they were unable to purchase the things which labouring men in this country were anxious and willing to produce for them for fair pay. I say that the tariff racketeers who wanted to make exorbitant profits behind the tariff walls and quota restrictions which they erected in order to prevent things coming in which the Irish farmer might use whereon to make a profit are as responsible for the deaths of these children who died of malnutrition and poverty as if they had poisoned them.

Where are they?

If the Deputy does not know where there is poverty, destitution, malnutrition and infantile death for want of proper food and health, it is time he found out.

But where are these children?

Deputy Dillon is quite entitled to make his own speech without interruption. Deputy O'Rourke may intervene later.

While not presuming to interfere with the rules of order, I rejoice that Deputy O'Rourke holds himself out before the people of the country as one who knows nothing of the suffering of the poor in this city, in Cork, in Limerick, and in the other cities of the State.

I know much more than the Deputy.

There will be plenty of Deputies who will tell Deputy O'Rourke of houses where there are poverty and malnutrition, where there used to be prosperity and abundance. If he has never heard of them, perhaps his ignorance of such factors is partly responsible for his disappearance from the position of responsibility which up to so very recently he held in his native county.

Mr. Billingsgate.

That is not Billingsgate.

Surely if the Deputy does not know the sufferings of the poor, it is time he lost his position as chairman of the county council and board of health. Only those who know and sympathise with the difficulties of the poor are properly placed in these responsible positions. It is those who know nothing of destitution, who know nothing of want, who know nothing of the miseries that have been brought on the poor of this country by the tariff racketeers who have grown fat on the blood of the poor who are not fit to hold these responsible posts.

They are not as fat as the Deputy—most of them.

I told that Government, and I told that Party of which the Deputy is a member, time and again that the tariff racketeers were growing fat on the blood of the poor. These birds are coming home to roost now, and we are faced with an appalling problem, superimposed on the problem created by the present emergency under which the whole world is labouring.

Now I want to come to that. I think democracy has broken down in a great many countries because politicians did not believe it expedient to tell the people the truth, whether it was popular or unpopular. I think that in many countries of the world people became so disgusted with the political Parties who did nothing but manoeuvre around one another in the political arena that they turned in despair to any other system which would give them a decent Government. They wanted some good men whose word they could believe and ultimately they reached a stage of such utter bewilderment that they wanted some group of men whose voice alone would prevail because they had come to the conclusion that no public argument was genuine, that it was all the merest political chicanery.

When I hear a great deal of the talk going on at present, directed to prove that all the supply problems with which we are at present confronted are the sole responsibility of the Fianna Fáil Government, I am inclined to lose my patience because there is no Deputy who does not know that the great part of that talk is "cod." If you want neutrality, you have to face the difficulties inherent in carrying out that policy. You all want neutrality. Labour, Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil—you are all in agreement with the Taoiseach that he is right on the subject of neutrality.

And the people of Ireland.

It has nothing to do with the motion.

It has nothing whatever to do with it, but it carried in its train certain difficulties, and these difficulties are difficulties of supply, and the sooner the people and the politicians of this country make up their minds that these conditions are inescapable, no matter what Party is in power, and the sooner they honestly tell the people that, the better it will be for democratic institutions in this country. I see signs and tokens on some of the Labour platforms—I do not refer to them all—where it is suggested that if the Labour Party is returned, all these supply difficulties will vanish overnight.

In the interests of this democratic institution, the Deputy should come down to the motion before the House.

Of course, but is not the supply position very fundamental to our position here?

The Deputy should debate the motion before the House.

The motion is one calling on the Government to provide employment for everybody at a reasonable rate of wages, and everybody in the House knows in his heart and soul that, no matter what Government is sitting there, they could not, and they could not because the supplies are not there whereon to employ them, and that they will not be there to employ the people no matter what Government is in office.

And the Deputy, of course, will bring in neutrality.

I think neutrality a damnable and shameful policy, but that is another story. Once you have adopted that policy, we are not going to argue it. All I am saying is: face the implications of it, and do not go around stumping the country and pretending that if you get this Government out, everybody is going to get employment when you know they are not. Why do you not tell them that there are difficulties in this situation which neither Labour, Fianna Fáil nor Fine Gael can get over?

And the Deputy is the one wise man who can tell us all about neutrality.

Surely Deputy Hickey agrees with me that it would be better to tell the people that, although many of us have the highest, the loftiest, ambitions for the welfare of the public as a whole, nobody can provide fulltime employment for all our people at present in the situation in which we find ourselves.

Allow them to starve.

I shall come to that in a minute. That is the kind of vicious, dishonest talk that brings democracy into disrepute. Deputy Hickey knows that at present the supply position makes it impossible to provide work at a fair rate of wages for every man in the country willing to work. Deputy Everett knows it also.

And unless we go to war, we get no supplies.

I am talking about the situation as we find it and is that not the truth? If thousands and thousands of our people had not gone to England in the last two years, the unemployment problem of this country would be a great deal worse than it is at present. Is not that true? Everybody knows it. I believe that you ought to tell the people that perfectly plainly, instead of trying to lead them up the garden path and telling them that by putting in some other political Party, that political Party would solve the problem. I am still waiting to hear from the Labour Party what their proposals are for the solution of that problem. I put it to the Labour Party that two things should be done. The first is that economic self-sufficiency should be abolished. That would help to solve the problem, but what is the Labour Party's plan for giving every man a 48-hour week on terms that would be acceptable to an ordinary man? I have repeatedly asked how that is going to be done, but nobody can tell me. Poor as my little suggestions are, at least I have the spunk to get up and make them. The Labour Party tell us that the theories or suggestions of everybody else are false, but they will not tell us what they themselves will do. If their policy is effective and if it can be put into effect, well and good, but I have not heard any such policy from them. I have no policy myself. All I can suggest are measures that will alleviate the problem. I cannot tell them that the problem will be abolished, because I do not believe it will. I have been waiting to hear the Labour scheme for abolishing unemployment, but I have not heard it.

What about your own scheme?

My scheme is the abolition of economic self-sufficiency and the preparation, in due time, of schemes of public works which would afford employment only to a very limited number of unemployed. The general problem is there, and the special emergency problem is there, but they are two separate things. On the general problem I suggest that the abolition of economic self-sufficiency and the preparation in due time of Government schemes of public works will do a lot to alleviate the problem in time; but on the special emergency problem I do not believe that any of the Parties can provide adequate employment for all our people. I do not believe there is a single member sitting on the Labour Party Benches who can secure that. You all know yourselves that you cannot do it, and you should not be stumping the country telling the people that you could solve the problem if only you could put de Valera out, because you know in your hearts that you could not. Now I come to the second part of this question. The motion says:

"Dáil Eireann requests the Government immediately to formulate proposals for absorbing into useful employment at adequate remuneration all adult citizens able and willing to follow useful occupations."

I want to say quite deliberately that I do not believe that any scheme that can be evolved, under our present circumstances, is going to provide adequate remuneration for all the working men of this country unless notice is taken of the general rate of wages which these men receive, and of their family responsibilities. I do not think there is any basis of equity for paying men doing similar work a certain rate of wages, without taking into account the fact that one man is married and has six or seven children, while the other man is single and has no family responsibilities at all. I hold that there is no basis in equity for paying the same rate of wages there, and I believe that a completely new departure must be made in that regard.

I am aware that in certain countries, notably France and Belgium, an attempt has been made, by a pooling system between manufacturers in certain groups, to ensure that unmarried employees, doing a certain class of work, will receive one rate of wages, while married employees will receive another rate of wages based on the numbers of their families. In countries where you have large industrial groups such a system may be practicable and workable, but I do not believe that it would be practicable in our country. I believe that in the question of rendering equitable the remuneration that employees receive, regard should be had to the family responsibilities; that men doing similar work, with due regard to their similarity and skill should receive the same rate of wages, but that, side by side with that system of wage regulation, there should be a national system of family allowances, charged on the national income, to which all sections of the community will jointly contribute through the medium of taxation.

Is the Deputy referring to children's allowances? I want to make sure about that.

Yes. I think it is a matter of adaptation to the particular circumstances of the country as to whether it should be the first child or children after the first child. I want to emphasise that that matter is one which should be fixed by the payment from funds derived from taxation. There is a certain amount of unpopularity in the raising of the revenue necessary to meet all these expenses for benefits of one kind or another, but it is absolutely certain that no greater injury can be done to a community than to lead them on to the slippery slope of seeking to take out of the national income more than production and wealth-making is putting in. In handling the finances of the State one can, by manipulation over a strictly limited time, appear to extract more from the national income than the community is putting in, but the longer that policy is pursued by the community, the greater will be the disaster when the illusion ceases to blind the eyes of the community and the consequences of living beyond their means for a protracted time are brought home to them. I do not want to expatiate upon this, because examples are generally to be found in the classic descriptions of the consequences of inflation, but the fact that it is unnecessary to go into them in detail in a deliberative Assembly of this kind does not mean that it may not be necessary to explain them to the people at the cross-roads of the country. Therefore, whatever family allowances are decided upon should be raised only by taxation, whatever that taxation may be. Then there should be paid to the mother of every family, in respect of each child, an allowance, in my judgment, of 5/- per week.

While a good deal can be said for restricting this system of allowances to wage-earners exclusively, I think that in this country it would be a great mistake, because anyone studying the lists of unemployed will find that a very large number of men on them in this country are small farmers whose farms are uneconomic and who cannot live without employment. This whole question then of the small rural land owner so complicates our position that, in my judgment, in order to come to the aid of the wage-earner in this country it would be necessary to extend the family allowance to every small land owner in this country. That being true, I think the administrative difficulties of discriminating between the classes entitled to this benefit and those who should be excluded from it far outweigh the objections to making the family allowance available to every citizen in this State without any regard to what his income may be at all— making it a common allowance available to all. By doing that we not only avoid the administrative difficulties of segregating the classes to whom we wish to give it, but we also avoid the means test, that bureaucratic investigation of every family's internal arrangements, and that interference in the family life occasioned by an elaborate inquiry into all the sources of income to which that family may have access.

Is the Deputy not going outside the actual positive proposals in this motion?

No, Sir, I relate all this to the words "adequate remuneration".

During the last quarter of an hour the Deputy has been giving us a dissertation on family allowances.

That is because I submit that adequate remuneration is not available to any person unless due regard is had to family responsibilities. I have made the case that it is impossible for the employers in this country to adopt such a system as operated in France and Belgium, where the employers undertook to make the discrimination and give a family wage. Here we are so circumstanced that we can only hope to pay an equal wage for equal work, and it is the State's responsibility to differentiate between what is an adequate wage for an unmarried man and what is adequate remuneration for a man with family responsibilities.

Is the Deputy not anticipating his own motion, No. 4?

Well, Sir, I am also anticipating a general election, and the Standing Orders of this House provide that all motions on the Paper vanish when the general election comes. When I come back here after the general election, I shall put down my motion on family allowances again, but God knows when we will get Private Members' time. I shall return to this House as a private Deputy, as an independent Deputy, and I shall have to wait my turn. I am not anticipating the motion. I am merely noting that the Labour Party seems to have overlooked this important reform in the motion they put down months ago, although they do not fail to include it in their election programme. Incidentally, I may say to my erstwhile and respected colleagues of the Fine Gael Party that, although they proved themselves very able critics of this proposal when I first mooted it in Dáil Eireann, I note with satisfaction that they have included it in their election programme, and I have observed that the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance, although somewhat indignant when I first mentioned this matter, are now quite angry and upset if it is suggested that they are not as enthusiastic about it as I am. That is very gratifying. I have no doubt, Sir, that the position is verdant in your memory; at the time, I was a bird alone, but now I feel like one amongst a crowd of jackdaws.

Mr. Byrne

The Deputy was not quite alone.

I had some valued supporters, but at that time I was a member of a Party and did not expect to get support from Independent Deputies. Now that I occupy that honourable position myself, I welcome support from whatever side it may come, and I now have the support of all sides of the House. In asking the House to say that this reform is necessary in order to secure adequate remuneration for every employed person in this country, I may say that this will be my swan song on the subject of family allowances. Having converted the whole of Dáil Eireann to the principle of family allowances I think I may pass on to further reforms, while I leave those who lag behind to the somewhat dull and tedious work of giving practical application to the lead I provided 18 months ago.

We gave it three or four years ago.

Did you?

Well, you were very quiet about it. It was the Deputy's coyness that misled me. If I have given him courage to come out and show his affection for this principle, I think I have done a public service.

I do not write for the Sunday Independent.

Perhaps it is that the Deputy does not command fees for writing articles. When he writes good ones he will not have any difficulty in gaining admission to the columns of the Press. However, I do feel very much astonished that the Labour Party did not follow up that aspect of their own proposal. I am astonished that they should bring before the House a proposal for adequate remuneration, without dwelling on that positive feature of the proposal which requires adequate remuneration not only for the single man but for the family man. I am astonished that they should have allowed themselves to take up a position in this House which might well be interpreted to be that in their opinion a wage which is adequate for an unmarried man without any family responsibility is, therefore, adequate for a married man with children. I do not think it is, and I should be glad to hear from them what they propose. Do they think that we should have a means test in connection with the family allowance scheme?

When we were protesting against the means test, the Deputy solemnly voted against us.

I want them to tell us what they say now. Now is the time for it to go on record. The Deputy must at least admit that I shall be in a constituency where there are no wage earners, a constituency where there is nothing but small farmers, to whom this scheme makes no appeal whatever. Nevertheless, it is an essential part of any scheme which the Government may produce in answer to this request of the Labour Party. I have made my proposal, and I have presented my dilemma to the Labour Party. What is their scheme? I want to hear it. I want to help, in so far as in me lies, to give effect to any scheme which will provide 48 hours' work at a fair wage for every man and woman in this country willing to work under conditions acceptable to honourable Christian people. I have not heard a scheme from the Labour Party which will fulfil those requirements. I reject the solutions which have been put in practice by the Nazis in Germany and the Communists in Russia. I take it that the Labour Party rejects those solutions, too?

The request here to-day is to our Government, and not to the Nazis or the Communists.

Yes, and our Government should remember that there are abroad in this world two savage beasts designed to destroy this State and every other State, the Nazi beast and the Communist beast. We have to be on our guard that their Fifth Columnists and cells do not find their way into our community. That is the danger. Let us keep constantly in mind the loathsome character of those two disgusting doctrines. Let us keep in mind the complete unscrupulousness of the leaders of those two philosophies in the world, lest we should allow any of their detestable satellites into our community. Let us not imagine that, living here in Ireland, we are safe from the loathsome contagion that has corrupted the souls of many other nations. Let us not imagine that this detestable disease is not airborne. It can cross water as well as land. It has poisoned and rotted countries far removed from Moscow and Berlin, and can rot this country, too. Let us lay no soothing unction to our souls that those are dangers that we need not think of.

Imperialism and Capitalism can rot people, too, and have done so.

Let us remember those twin dangers constantly. Far from forgetting them, let us keep them constantly in the forefront of our minds to loathe them and despise them. Let us here solemnly resolve that they shall never contaminate us. With these words of warning I again invite the Labour Party to tell us what they are going to do, to tell us what their scheme is to achieve the purpose, the lofty purpose, the admirable purpose, envisaged in this resolution, so that, if they have the solution in their keeping, if it is concealed in their bosoms, when they reveal it, each of us can cry peccavi for our failure in the past, and clamber on the band wagon of the Labour Party of 48 hours' work at a fair wage for every man and woman in this country willing to work, under conditions acceptable to a free and Christian man.

When we heard Deputy Dillon say he did not know, I am perfectly sure that we all began to smell a rat. It was a very useful confession. We are rather inclined to think that there are a good many things that Deputy Dillon did not know, but we did not know that there was one thing that Deputy Dillon knew that he did not know. He had no solution for the unemployment problem, nothing to bring happiness and prosperity of unlimited character to this country, and then he turned over to curse, to loathe, to use the strongest possible language of repudiation and condemnation of a system which, he said, was already pauperising, starving and lacerating this country. If one-quarter of what Deputy Dillon said about this cursed system of self-sufficiency were true, then it would be sufficient to explain a very large amount of the evil which is visible here. If there were one-fiftieth of the virtue that he claimed in a complete free trade system, which he would be in a position, no doubt, to impose upon all men, then the introduction of that free trade system and the abolition of that cursed system of self-sufficiency ought to have been sufficient to make a new heaven and a new earth here. But, when he had torn passion into threads, when he had exhausted himself with his own vehemence, he turns around and says that if this cursed system of self-sufficiency were removed, and if this heaven-sent system of free trade were introduced, then a quite negligible proportion of the total number of those now unemployed might be employed.

And poverty would be almost abolished.

Oh, not almost abolished —it must be completely abolished because, if the system which exists is so damnable—I want to use the sort of language, the sort of enthusiasm which the Deputy put into the matter—and the new system was so heavenly, then surely the wealth, the productivity, the livelihood-breeding capacity of this country must have gone up right into the skies and there would be no excuse for anybody being poor, for anyone not having a livelihood, for anybody not having a good standard of living in a country from which that evil had been removed and to which that blessing had come. I must say that that mountain produced a very little mouse but not a mouse any smaller than we would expect that mountain to produce. If he does not know, however, how to remove unemployment, it does not necessarily follow that other people do. He said that he had read all the books in the world in relation to it and had not found the solution. I think it would be rather a good idea if he were to call together all those eminent authors—and, no doubt, the editor of the Irish Independent would be eager to be invited—and explain to them the extraordinary potency of removing self-sufficiency and the introduction of free trade. My recollection is that people have been unhappy, people have been poor, people have been unemployed in this country under both free trade and the other. Each of them in turn has been the servant of the system which has produced unnecessary unemployment and suffering, but I do not believe that in the abolition of either of them or the bringing in of either of them as such you will find anything in the nature of a complete solution.

It would not be difficult to do better.

Perhaps the Deputy would stop interrupting. I think he will agree with me that that sort of interruption means nothing whatever except simply sound.

There was a series of small points which the two official sponsors of this motion introduced which I would rather clear out of the way before we get down to the matter at issue. There was a general tendency to exaggerate the evil of the present position for the purpose of debate: People were afraid to marry; malnutrition was carrying a scourge of death through the country; the St. Vincent de Paul Society was dragged in as a sort of testimony to an existing condition. The actual position at the present moment, while it is not by any means good, is not, in relation to previous and other times, relatively bad. Anyone who knows the rural districts and the other districts will find it very difficult to say that at the present moment the indication that is given by the vital statistics is wrong. Deputy Keyes says people are afraid to marry; afraid to have children; the death rate is rising; at any rate, malnutrition must be producing its results. There are such things as vital statistics. They are published and they are provided free for all the members of the House. The vital statistics contained in the last copy, the September number, of the Irish Trade Journal, show that the marriage rate is rising rapidly at the present moment, that the birth rate, apparently, is rising even more rapidly, and that the death rate is lower than it has been for a long time.

What are the statistics in regard to tuberculosis?

We will take tuberculosis later. What we are concerned with now is that these are the vital statistics.

For what period?

For 1942.

From 1st January, 1942?

The Deputy will have the record. I will make him a present of it. What I am concerned with is that these vital statistics—births, marriages and deaths—are the general indicator. The general indicator indicates that at the present moment, and progressively, apparently, the health of the country on the whole is promising. I move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.
The Dáil adjourned at 9.30 p.m. until 3 o'clock on Thursday, 10th December.
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